What is the best Leica camera for M lenses (M10 versus SL2-S)?
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- In this video we will explore the pros and cons of both the M and the SL system, if you want to use them with M lenses.
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:07 Shutter sound
01:25 Aesthetics
03:14 Usability
08:28 Image Quality
09:09 Image samples
10:48 Image quiz (SL or M)
11:41 Final thoughts 
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Thanks for the video! Very well produced and I was actually debating between both systems for my first Leica. You highlighted the camera differences in a really good way.
Thanks a lot. Happy you liked it! Which one do you prefer or did you end up buying? M or SL? 😇
Great video, low key, nuanced and to the point. Bravo!
Thanks for the encouragement. 🙏🏻💯
Worth the wait! Saw some familiar spots (such as 8:23, of course) and some new ones to discover in Brussels. Looking for ward to the next one after that teaser.
It took me (a lot of) some time to fully appreciate Brussels, but the city is packed with photographic gems. Photo walks after work are my new go to. We should definitely do one together in the near future. ✌🏻
Amai, yes een nieuwe video online! jij maakt zulke goede video''s
Merci 😊. Bijna verhuisd en dan is er hopelijk terug meer tijd om meer videos te maken. (De nieuwe film camera zorgt in ieder geval voor veel goesting en inspiratie 🙂)
Thank you for this excellent comparison. Very clearly explained.
Really good point about balance with the heavier M lenses on an M vs SL2. Everyone else just talks about the weight and volume difference. The way an SL body can actually balance some of the heavier M glass is illuminating.
Thanks! Happy to read it gave some extra perspective. Ergonomically using an SL with wide angle Summiluxes or a Noctilux is way nicer 💯
I've both the M240 and MP240, plus three M lenses. I have a number of R lenses too, which I use on my M cameras via an adaptor. Getting an SL will add approx 200 gr more to the bag, but I'll get more fun of the old Leica R or Angenieux lenses, because focusing will become a lot easier. 🤩 Thanks for sharing your experience. Keep on rolling!
Thanks for sharing your experience! Awesome to learn which combos different photographers go with? How do you like the R lenses compared to the M ones? Specific use cases for which you prefer the one over the other?
@@berndvandecruys Leica R lenses and Angenieux for Leica R are slightly smoother, more cinelike, where M lenses can tend to be a bit too sharp in my POV. Before I became a Leica R user, I had Minolta SRT 101 for 30 years. At that time, Minolta glass was rated as very close to Leica R, and when the SRT 101 production ceased, I switched to Leica R 6.2. For landscape, the R lenses deliver better results, but since my EDC set includes just the M glass 24/3.8, 50/1.4 and 90/2.5, they'll be used more often. R lenses are heavy to carry around.
I love the SL2. The EVF and ability to switch between auto and manual 6x focusing using back button is just a fantastic implementation thats the fastest I've used. The IBIS, especially when paired with IBIS lenses is unreal. I've hit 1 second exposures that are indistinguishable from tripod mounted shots. The flexbility for continuous autofocus which works really well for all fast moving subjects. If I was looking for a camera to pair with a separate film camera I'd say the M series is too close to that, in that it's slow and deliberate only. With the SL2 you swtich shooting style with the press of a profile button. My next point is the controversial one, the lenses, I would happily use the native L mount glass as these are some of the best lenses Leica have ever produced. That's no knock on the M glass, it's still fantastic but you aren't missing anything in tems of image quality, character or pop in the L mount glass but gaining autofocus and weather sealing.
Thanks for sharing your perspective! An M6 or M7 film camera + an SL is probably the best combo you can have. All the versatility one could ever need. When it comes to lenses, I just really like the older lenses, like the 35 Crons. Still need to really test the L glass and compare IQ and user experience. ✌🏻
Can the sl2 autofocus really keep up w moving subjects in continuous focus?
@@angellondian7628 the SL3 with phase detect AF will certainly improve the hit rate on this specific use case. Or you can adjust the aperture, increase the depth of the field and mitigate potential issues in the meantime ✌🏻
@@angellondian7628 absolutely the continous autofocus tracked subjects perfectly well when I've shot sports
I sold my M10-P for a SL2-S and I absolutely enjoy this camera but on the other side I really missed the M system. So when the time was right I bought an used M11 and also kept the SL2-S. They complement each other so good. I also use the SL2-S primarily with M glass and this combo is killer too.
Thanks for sharing your 📷 kit. That M11 SL2-S combo is a very nice setup indeed 💯👌🏻. I’m curious, which camera do you tend to use most?
@@berndvandecruys For the compactness the M11 is my EDC camera and almost always on me when im out the house. When I‘m on a „mission“ to shoot specifically I take both cameras with me. When the light goes away or the weather is going to be bad I take the SL2-S. So their usage is pretty balanced. Peace and love from Germany.
@@PrinZsuN1 Do you prefer the photos from the M system over those from the SL?
@@Hehehe527 In normal lighting conditions not, when its darker then I could see a difference between The two cameras, the SL2-s creating cleaner files for a few reasons. But as I said in normal lighting conditions they both produce stunning files ! Peace and love
@@PrinZsuN1 Grammar check:
Same here. Even though I am not confident in differentiating photos shot by m or sl camera, I still prefer photo shooting with my m ---the photos are stunning.
Really nice video. I have the original sl and love it but one thing I hate and no one ever really mentions is how much the viewfinder sticks out and digs into your side when carrying it with a strap. Apart from this its my favourite camera I've ever owned and the photos from the original SL sensor are the closest ive got to film.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the SL. The viewfinder does stick out a bit, which was probably a design choice to avoid nose-on-back-LCD problems 😇. So a new point for the M on this topic 😉✌🏻
The SL2-S shutter sounds more ‘digital’, the M shutter sounds more ‘mechanical.’ As it should! The focus assistance on the SL-2S makes a big difference to me. Overall winner is the SL2-S…but the M11 is so fun to shoot. Loved your low light shots in the city/village.
What do you think about mounting silver lenses on black bodies? Looks better then black on black?
Please do a video on R lenses. I can’t decide if I should try one out.
For low light, the SL2-S is great. I prefer the black lenses on a black body, as it is a bit more stealthy 🥷. But if a great deal in silver presents itself, I won’t hesitate 😉.
I’ll try to set something up for the R lenses, … to be continued.
Two film M`s /Cl and an SL2s .I`ve been shooting M`s for over twenty five years so I`m very attached to the Rf experience however my SL2s is much more versatile The only downside for me is the additional weight of the S2s and it would be nice if it were slightly smaller . In short I enjoy my M4 and M3 but for digital I want something more "up to date" and versatile .A digital M is too much of a compromise maybe ? Very well balanced review .
Thanks for sharing your personal selection of cameras. M on film with an F2 seems like the perfect combo. The upcoming SL3 will be very interesting if they could shave off some weight and add the phase detect autofocus. It would basically cover all bases and be the 👑 of versatility ✌🏻
anything leica M and SL i subscribe! good comparison!
Thanks and welcome 🙏🏻
I think a good partner to the Mamiya is the Fuji GFX. I partner my Pentax 645J with a GFX50R.
Unless I missed it there wasn't any mention of the shutter speeds advantage with the SL2-S...no more ND filters with fast apertures required with the M. Dynamic range is also nearly a stop wider with the SL2-S vs M10-P.
Thanks for adding this important info. Indeed the SL2-S shutter speed (mechanical and electronic) opens up more options for shooting fast lenses wide open without an ND. The M11 electronic shutter addition brought this up to parity, but the M10-P does not have it.
Thanks!
Welcome!
I own a M10. I also own a Sigma FP and a few Sigma L mount lens. is the SL-2S a good choice to replace my M10?
The SL2-S is certainly a good replacement for the M10, for the reasons mentioned in the video. If you already have M and L mount lenses, it ticks a lot of boxes. ✌🏻
what are the best settings to use on the SL2-S when using M lenses? do you set up a user profile for settings specific to M lenses?
Make sure the joystick is set to push to zoom in, to get critical focus with M lenses. And make sure the camera has a correct lens profile for the M lens, so that IBIS is active. Other than that, you don’t need much more.
Great video and comparison again. SL system (like most other mirrorless fullframes) are more practical in use. Its almost “too easy” to nail focus or get a good shot. What I like about the M bodies, because they are a bit harder in use, is that they keep me motivated and sharp, and most important: way more picky. I shoot way less and therefore have a higher hitrate + less images to process:)
Very good point. More time shooting, less time editing 😁💯
I really enjoyed this comparison as I also have both. It would be great to see more of your photos and experience with sl2s + m lenses.
Sometimes I have to shoot both side by side for music gigs. People react differently to them- with sl2s + 24-70, people get quite self conscious and it draws attention. Whereas I feel people are a lot more open and natural when I point an M camera at them. I think next time I’ll need to test the reaction when I use sl2s with m lens instead of the massive 24-70 to see if it’s any different. Thank you for your video!
Thanks for sharing your experience with both. Indeed, big lenses draw a lot of attention. The M is great in that respect, because people are more intrigued than intimidated. Very curious what your experience will be with the SL + M lens combo will be. The low light mastery of the SL should be awesome for music gigs. Cheers ✌🏻
Reporting back on my experience for anyone interested -- I used my SL2S with 35mm cron/ 50mm cron (no flash) at a music event and it was delightful!
- I personally felt less self-conscious about pointing a camera at people who are dancing/having fun. Nothing is more jarring than having photographers in their faces with a big camera. I also didn't have annoying people pulling weird faces and hand signs which does happen if you look like a "club photographer" with a big lens and flash.
- Focus peaking makes it a lot easier to nail focus. I shot wide open as I didn't use flash. If I was using flash, I stop down to f/5.6~11 and use zone focus which I feel my M10p is better for that. The OVF is great so it doesn't 'black out' unlike the EVF.
- While the 24-70mm is a versatile lens and gives me peace of mind that 1 lens will cover most scenarios, I'm moving towards shooting M10p and SL2s side by side with 21mm and 50mm M lenses.
@@joeychan1589 thanks for sharing the experience. Very interesting to read how this change in setup, affects your and the subject’s feeling of self consciousness. The magic of M lenses I guess 😇
has the M11 but like to add the LS series so hope LS3 is coming soon
The SL3 will probably arrive somewhere in 2024. I expect a step forward in autofocus capability, incredible EVF, lighter body and M11 type sensor. Just have to be patient for a couple of months 🫣✌🏻
A major win for the SL series is you don’t need to send it in to Leica for CLA
Very true, an EVF doesn’t need re-alignment of a rangefinder 🙈
Would you buy the sl2s now or wait the end of the year and see what appen with SL2? I want to upgrade my Fuji xpro3 system
Personally I would wait for the SL3. I think that will be a major upgrade. Especially if you plan on using autofocus lenses. With M lenses only, or if you want a lower pixel count, the SL2-s is more than capable enough ✌🏻
@@berndvandecruys thanks. I'll wait more rumors on the 3. I'll use my M6 for now.
M-glass is small, quick and perfect on M-bodies. They are designed for zone focusing and snap shooting at moderate apertures. I purchased the original SL (601) to "digitize" my M-glass, but I soon found out how much I was missing when I tried SL lenses. While the SL system's amazing EVF, zoom capability, and focus peaking can certainly improve the hit rate of an adapted Summilux-M or Summicron-M lens, I believe the premise is flawed (unless you shoot everything wide-open or own a Noctilux). The SL system is a much more sophisticated platform. Besides IBIS and AF, you also have a vastly improved metering system. Sure SL-glass is larger, but it is optically superior to even the best M-glass. So, I would say the "best" platform for each lens type, is its native camera. Otherwise, you are using a hammer, when you should be using a screwdriver 🙂
Thanks for adding your perspective! It's just so fun to adapt lenses and mix-n-match systems :-)
which lens is the one on the Sl2s?
great video!
I tried out a couple of lenses with it, notably the 35mm Summicron "King of Bokeh", a Summicron M 50mm APO & the 50mm M Summilux during the balancing test. Thanks for watching!
was the 35mm the V4?
@@berndvandecruys
@@RobertoManzari yes! 😎
i have the sl2 for almost a month now. with the apo summicron-sl 50mm. i have had several m cameras. getting older focusing is getting more difficult with the rangefinder. so i sold my m monochrom and got the q2 monochrom. a beautiful camera. but 28mm is not my lens. and then i discovered the sl2 with autofocus. i walk the streets and the combination with the apo lens is way to heavy and big. next week i have rented my favourite summilux 50mm and i am going to try that lens on my sl2. hopefully that is the right match for me. wish that the sl3 would be a monochrom one....
I think you will appreciate the lighter and smaller 50 Lux M lens. It feels a lot nicer on the SL body.
Interesting thought, a monochrome SL3, but I’m afraid it would be a bit too niche, even for Leica 🫣. The SL3 will probably take autofocus to the standard of 2023, a tilt screen, variable resolution, … to make it the perfect hybrid for video and photo. I just hope they will make the body lighter in weight. ✌🏻
Hi all experts, please help me to find out which best adapter to fit L mount camera body? Since I have two Summicron lenses which is 50mm and 85mm F2 made by Germany on Leica M4-P has passed to me from my dad and set there for 15 years then now I plan to get one digital camera with L mount adapter with full frame. If some one already tried this process PLEASE help me out especially which best adapter will fit for its. My appreciation to to everyone; Regards, Kenny
Hi Kenny, the official Leica adapter is probably the best and it allows you to read the 6 bit code of newer M lenses. But I have used the Urth one, and that gives a lot of value for the price. Lenses feel snug and secure on an L mount body like the SL. ✌🏻
What is best ? Best optical performance it is probably the M, best way to focus/ use M lenses it is probably the SL2 (more and more M lenses focus closer than 0.7m).
Leica is indeed trending in the direction of bringing out more and more M lenses that can focus closer than 0.7m / At some point the M body will be able to support it, maybe with the rumoured build-in EVF body option?
I have both, m10r and sl2s. Took both recently on a week trip with walking all day, trains, 3 cities etc. I only use manual M lenses. SL feels like a swiss knife, easy to switch between video and photo. Moviemakers shoot in manual so large AF lenses are not required. Beautiful video images through the M lenses. EVF is super quality but external EVF on an M is more flexibel as it tilts. When necessary I use my iphone as external monitor connecter to the sl2s over bluetooth. Weight is not an issue at all. Beware that people react more often when you shoot them with a sl2s, not ideal for candid street photography. Also i had to hand in my sl at a concert which never happened with my M. If it wasn’t for the video capabilities, I would only shoot M. After a day of video plus photo on the sl2s, it feels like freedom when going out in the evening with only the M. After this extensive experience with both cameras on a trip my conclusion is that i’ll take the sl2s for work assignmentsm and the m for sheer creativity. Hope this helps. Oh by the way, there is no difference in image quality at all
Thanks a lot for sharing your perspective and experience! 💯🙏🏻
no worries, and groeten uit Antwerpen :-) @@berndvandecruys
Aha, altijd leuk om via deze weg Leica M gebruikers te ontmoeten en dan vooral uit Antwerpen 😇💯!
@@berndvandecruys jazeker daar dient youtube oa voor. Fyi op 14 oktober aanstaande is er een Leica Meet Belgium in Namur. Ik ga er eens naartoe, kan leuk zijn. Bgr
Bedankt voor de tip. Ik ga ook proberen aanwezig te zijn op die volgende Leica Meet in Namen ✌🏻
I have had 2 Leica M’s and found the focusing hard and also framing was kind of guess work…
I also found focusing quite challenging the first months of using a rangefinder. With enough practice and wider lenses (35 or wider) it got way easier and now it feels natural 😁
M11 way to go or SL 3 🙌👍🏻
Both great options ✌🏻
Have both , the M no doubt handle M glass better than SL .
Thanks for sharing your experience, having both systems 👌🏻
I miss Bruxelles
It’s an interesting city indeed ✌🏻
The only reason to get an M is if you either 1. ONLY want a rangefinder, or 2. NEED and value first and foremost the lightest setup possible. Any other reasons get an SL
Thanks for your perspective. Short and to the point 👌🏻
Thanks for this comparison. I think it's an endless question ... what camera to use with M lenses 😆
... my very personal problem is: The SL wins in all the "practical" points, but then ... if you really intend to use it primarily with M lenses, the SL solution to me is just using any adapter with a generic EVF camera, why not just go for a Sony or a Nikon or a Panasonic then. You have so many choices with those mirrorless digital cameras today ...
The M on the other hand is the only digital camera that gives a totally "classic" or "analogue" shooting experience. Maybe Fuji X or some DSLR bodies like Nikon Df or Pentax also give that experience, but just to some extent, none creates that pure classic feeling as much as the Leica M. You can even buy an analog M camera and it will almost give the same shooting experience as the digital M ...
About the rangefinder, one thing that I think is sad is that Leica switched the digital M after the M9 to those "electric" rangefinder framelines. Cause now you always have to turn on the camera just to check your composition or when you use the small lever to find out if you maybe want to use a different focal length.
Thanks for the extra perspective Tom! I also have a soft spot for the rangefinder M experience and like you mentioned the competition within the mirrorless market is fierce. I do like the SL and the fact that it stays true to the Leica design philosophy of minimalism. I guess that's part of the fun of these endless questions, creating lists of pros and cons :-D
The issue with using any mirrorless camera with M lenses is the sensor filter stack thickness. Sony cameras are notorious for producing edge colours and focal plane distortions with M lenses. Nikon Z cameras are better but not as good as a M body. Leica SL cameras have sensors with microlens arrays and thin filter stacks which help mitigate these problems.
@@raksh9 thanks for adding this information 💯. Out of curiosity, would you go for the M or SL, if you can only choose one 🙂
@@berndvandecruys If it is to shoot M lenses only, definitely a M body. Even the SL2S is not completely optimised for M lenses. But for general purpose shooting with L mount and adapted legacy lenses including M, I'd get a SL2-S. The M10 can be fitted with an EVF and has live view for extra tricky focusing. I'll continue to use my M9 for M lenses as long as it lasts, then get a gently used M10.
This is an exercise in nostalgia for modernist design. I used Leica Ms and Nikon Fs in the 70s and 80s and for the technology available at the time they were perfect. Half a century later the benchmarks have changed. Since the advent of digital Leica has always looked like catching up and adapting the basic concept not always has been successful. Just think of the EVF on the Ms. Compared to state-of-the-art competing cameras, the Fuji Pro3 and GFX50S2 respectively, both Leicas are left wanting. A rangefinder camera with a zoom lens? Try the Pro3 with the cheap, plastic, kit zoom and look at the images. The SL2 and the GFX weigh the same and are about the same size on paper, although the Fuji feels a heavier and bulkier but it delivers bigger files at different ratios. Image quality? It's in the eye of the beholder.
It’s crazy how many options we have in 2023 for great cameras with great image quality. I have used Fuji in the past and while they are great cameras, their build quality and overall appeal/UX is still below Leica imo. It all comes down to personal preference, which tool inspires you the most to go out and do photography. What I like most about Leica is the fact that they are unconventional and not afraid to put out products like monochrome cameras, re-issue M6, old design lenses re-runs. An SL is way more difficult to market properly, because direct competition is very hard (and keeps getting harder like you pointed out with the incredible GFX 100 megapixel beasts)
SL sounds better!!!!!!!!! best sound ever!
Love the enthusiasm! :-)
Of course M! without any thought! I have only M cameras. and when I went to a local camera shop, I touched some other different cameras from different brands, Canon, Nikon, etc. I swear by the ass of all type of gods, I thought they are dummies!! I removed the caps to make sure! and I saw the sensors! Oh my Zeus! they are plastics and too lights. They are toys. I really hate the idea of auto focus and all type of assistance. photography should stay as difficult and real as Leica M systems. It is a way that makes people more creative and skilled! or at least makes people seeking for an achievement. It keeps you dreaming! Nothing like the journey that you take in your life seeking and challenging to master some skills. and Leica SL has auto focus!
A real M fan! Love it 💯👌🏻
You can use the very Same on both , stop using different lens on both,!!!
I used the same lens on each body during the small quiz. Is that what you meant? Or did I misunderstood?
In my opinion, there is no comparison to be made here. Focusing with M lenses on mirrorless cameras has nothing to do with focusing on a rangefinder. They are worlds apart. It doesn't matter if it's a Leica SL, Sony, or Canon. There's nothing enjoyable about it, and it can't be done quickly. That's why I got rid of my Leica Q2. It's a great camera, but neither the autofocus was as good as the competition nor the manual focus as good as Leica M.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. When it comes to rangefinder focusing (which I like), I do wonder if Leica can re-invent the mechanics so that the rangefinder can handle these new close focusing M lenses (closer than 70cm). Or is that EVF M actually in the pipeline…
@@berndvandecruys I think they would have to redesigh whole body to make it possible to close focusing. So it's not possible.
But hybrid viewfinder may be an option.
One point to compare is a bit stupid… IBIS… None of any M‘s ever was made to have anything like IBIS. That‘s not part of this concept so no real point for comparison. An M is an M and SL is an SL.
I did hesitate to include it or not (I also chose not to talk about the convenience of USB-C charging or dual card slots because the M11 has that). In the end I went for it, because I was quite surprised to see the M11 launch with a 60 megapixel sensor without IBIS. I’m quite confident that the M12 will have IBIS or something similar as soon they can get the mechanics small enough to be housed in the classic body design. But I fully understand your point of view. Thanks for the feedback ✌🏻
@@berndvandecruys No problem. I am working with the M11 now for nearly a year and I just can say I never had the need to miss IBIS in any situation. Even on 60mpx. And I hope that the M will stay classic forever in that regard. That's why I say the SL is totally different concept and purpose. In this you can put all new technologies which is the right decision for that target group. But an M is an M. I know that there are problems with USB-C charging. M11 seems to be very sensitive to changing voltage and so a lot of chip get damaged. My M11 was in Wetzlar and they exchanged the whole mainboard. So they have more problems with that cam than they had with the M10.
@@Jaxplode thanks for sharing your personal experience. As with all major updates or new products in general, there are a few kinks to work out as soon as it get mass produced and people start using it. Hope they fix all of this with the M11-P (and hopefully a couple of extra goodies with it ;-)
Calling it stupid is bit harsh, lots of M users want it, and no doubt M12 will have it.
You don’t use lenses longer than 50mm do you?
One thing you probably forgot to mention is that comparing to M, SL is much heavier, which is heavy enough to differentiate the M’s light and pleasant process of creation. I’m sorry, probably this is more crucial to me 😅😅
Good point, that I indeed did not mention explicitly. The weight does come in handy when balancing exotic lenses, like a Noctilux. For Summicrons, the M package in size and weight is joy 💯