💬 Facts & Fiction: Nissan CAS | TECHNICALLY SPEAKING |
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- Опубликовано: 13 мар 2019
- One of the most hotly debated topics within the global RB community is the accuracy of the Nissan OEM Cam Angle Sensor.
In this video, with the help of Herman from Platinum Racing Products we attempt to separate facts from fallacies, explain the cause of the problem and recommend a solution that could not only save you costly repairs but help you make the most out of your RB engine. Enjoy:)
Platinum Racing Products: www.platinumracingproducts.com/
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One of the most hotly debated topics within the global RB community is the accuracy of the Nissan OEM Cam Angle Sensor.
In this video, with the help of Herman from Platinum Racing Products we attempt to separate facts from fallacies, explain the cause of the problem and recommend a solution that could not only save you costly repairs but help you make the most out of your RB engine. Enjoy:)
Before you can debunk, you need to find the facts and build the base. You did a great job with this video.
mind talking about the sr20 cas with it's opto sensor and 180 tooth 4 different home style of cas ? :)
I had issues when engine was hot previously (missfire at 6K~ rpm with sync issues) so I got a 24+1 disc in it and solved it but unsure if swapping back again would be wise (sr20vet @ 9K rpm).
@@ole-martinbroz8590 Im suprised you have misfire issues with an SR,considering it uses a timing chain. Does your VE have a coil on plug system or the standard coil in the distributor cap?
@@conradsealy9603 Chain, both the P11 and P12 system (p12 being fine tooth new system) - tested both just for the hell of it as I had both.
Manual timing chain or the hydraulic, running manual now due to stiff springs, large valves and 280 deg 12mm cams :)
Coil on plug.
I'd hate to say it but this video got me triggered.
No. This was not "tech heavy"... this answered a question that has been baking my noodle for quite some time! Don't be afraid to lay it on thick with the tech. People who buy a high end engine management system generally like to know just a little more than they'll ever need ;)
Thanks for the feedback. It's always a compromise between trying to deliver sufficient amount of tech info without being too boring:)
Its tech heavy, but I suppose if you're going to be doing this stuff to an engine worth mega bucks, you better be have a good understanding of how it works. Experience is required.
I love these tech heavy videos even though I don’t fully understand everything the guys are talking about. Wish I did...time to buy a trigger kit lol
No apologies for tech heavy content, please, just make more of it! Great video.
That thread gapping is a brilliant idea.
People love to overcomplicate simple things.
Thanks so much for another great explanation! I'm not that much into engine tuning - just have some basic knowledge about engine and components. But Scott explains very precisely and speaking not to fast - helps me to translate and understand parallely. Great footage to learn step by step. 😎👍
Love Herman’s demeanor in this.... reminds me of Dana Carvey in Wayne’s World after he absolutely slays it on the drum kit and then just humbly says “I like to play” 😂😂
Gotta be one of the best car tech vids on RUclips. Thank you
Excellent video as usual Scott. I love seeing you collaborate with other vendors like PRP, Herman’s recent series with Andrew from Motive have also been top notch - great work from everyone.
Herman gets around :P
Great stuff! Love Herman's engineering prowess with thread pitch allocation for each bolt👌
Not to much tech heavy at all guys that was great! Even know I don't have an RB still makes you think about how the ECU is trying to do its thing even with belt deflection.
Great video guys! These types of videos help change my perspective on how I look at cars all together! If it wasn't for all this technology we wouldn't be able to push the limits of engine as we can nowadays! Really like the way it was explained in an understandable way. I like the reference to being out in the timing and the dramatic effect it has.
You guys are the best, Bar None !
Thank you for such a precise bit of info.
I look forward to getting a Haltech ecu for my freshly built RB26, getting it tuned. Many thanks for all the great videos. Keep them coming.
this is excellent, iv got 2 cas's both with timing issues, keep it up guys!
Love these video more than you know. And they are not too tech heavy, that's why I love them. GIVE ME MORE!!! :-D
Really enjoyed this vid, thanks gents! Answered a lot of questions
These videos are so interesting scott youre a gold mine
Thank you so much Scotty and Herman. Not something I had considered but as you started to go through the descriptions, the light bulbs were going off. My hands were flappin around indicating deflection, firing orders, cam an crank positions etc. Yes i Have a lot of background knowledge, but we can all learn. Makes perfect sense and I am genuinely grateful for you both sharing your knowledge. BTW... my dog thought she was getting fed four times and going for a walk twice with all the hand signals I was throwing out during this video.
i'll need to watch this when i'm not tired. lost me pretty early but i always wondered about timing chain looseness on fords, and belt deflection makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for this Scottie and Herman! I recently bought a high end engine EMS and thought that the CAS issue only pertained to that specific one. The company told me it happens to ALL EMS'; which was like one of the first things you clarified.
Iove the RB content. Good video!
This makes me love my s54's stock setup, crank sensor between cyl 6 and the flywheel on the crank, and 1 cam sensor on each cam, and dual row chain drive :) No trigger issues.
This is hugely helpful, I have a 2JZ-GE using the distributor for CAS, going to move to a GTE oil pump to get a sensor on the crank.
awesome video, cleared a lot up don't be afraid to go tech heavy.
Thanks for your time, iam a nerd when it comes to this
I enjoyed that. More technical geekery like this please!!!!
Loved the video keep them coming
Great vid!
Why i can hit "like" button only one time ? :( I would like to leave bazillion likes :) Love this tech videos. Awesome, awesome, awesome ... and pls do more more more. Thank you !
Awesome!!
Many people here commenting on timingbelt stretch vs timingchain stretch as well...
To cut it short, i knew some small engine such as k3-ve /k3-vet from daihatsu/toyota especially on automatic transmission, often a fault code via "D" gear indicator blinking indicating engine error occured... And this most of the time due to the timingCHAIN stretch...it happens on stock car with stock ecu...
In simple, timing belt AND chain stretching do happens on both type of cam drive...
Chain, tensioner and guide replacement is alway needed when this happens..
Just sharing
one of the best !
Great video!
Awesome. ...
more of these videos please👍
mark jacobs tuned my rb26tt flex tune and its never missed a beat ,only mild 376kw 500whp, always tune with fresh belt lol interesting video ,
Cam angle sensor is not absolutely needed in every multipoint EFI, SAAB Trionic system uses Ion current over the spark plug by the spark module to detect when a cylinder has fired. So at the point when the engine is cranking, the ECU reads the crank angle sensor for TDC, it then sends a signal to the spark module to fire both cylinders in wasted spark mode, the cylinder that fires is detected by the spark module which then relays that back to the ECU to determine the next sequential event, no cam angle sensor required.
huh, that seems like a really over-complicated way to do things, hella nifty though
I’m a complete dimwit, when it comes to the inner workings of engines (I’m trying to learn a bit here and there) but I now feel a 1000 % smarter! 😁 This was dumbed down to a level, where (most of) it made sense to even me! Thanks guys! 👍 Just a question ... Can you have similar problems with a cam chain? I know you won’t have slack in the chain itself, but I guess, that the tensioner springs might be the problem here?
great video
Nice info
So much great information but wow good things to learn. Looks like a pain in the a$$ just to build a street with this
Scott you have a very good presence on cam and when speaking to public....love that confidence...look how The owner of Platinum racing products is feeling uneasy. Its like take your kid to workday.
The more tech, more better :), At least for me, and if you touch on a topic or term that I am not familiar with, that is something for me to learn about, and then watch the video again, hasn't happened yet, but it will happen some day :)
When Herman says 'you're welcome'! lol
Finally.
Scotty, you seem parched mate. I needed a drink watching you talk.
You guys give much love to the RB. Could you give some to the VQ?
RBs are just much more popular, but VQ is definitely on our "Love List". Stay tuned!
@@haltech Awesome! State side the RB is a little more of a rarity just because we never got the old GT-R series.Thanks for the reply! awesome channel!
No!!! LOL! RB for lyfe
Very good video explaining in details the OEM Cas issue but what happens if you run a non missing tooth crank trigger and syncing the engine position from the cam sensor when you have a variation on the cam position as explained at the beginning of the video with belt slap?
As you define your engine position from the cam sensor, if the cam tooth for your whole sync is passing the sensor during a period of slap in the belt, you're going to be firing slightly out for the rest of the cycle? And as you sync every 720degrees, you potentially will have variation every cycle as the cam tooth will pass the sensor at different position related to the crank based on the slap/rpm
I may be wrong depending how it actually syncs in the background but I couldn't see a setting in Haltech to define the acceptable angle between the Cam tooth and the next crank tooth and the acceptable error around that point to make sure your timing remains the same at any given rpm/slack in the belt
Unless you can define that the next crank tooth needs to be x amount of degrees after your Cam tooth, your timing may varies unless you have a missing tooth on the crank trigger wheel
What do you think about the CAS disk update from the 360 tooth disk to the 24 tooth disk? Is that helpful?
Thanks
you talked about belt driven.. what about the chain driven accuracy? like the Sr20?
chain stretch is a problem as well, happens on bicycles even!
the actual weight of the chain can infact advance cam when it kind or bows up .. there is still accuracy to be had by converting to a combo set up like that
Hi Scotty. Thanks for the great video, very insightful. My build isn't an RB, it's a CA18DET, which has a reputation for being an RB missing two cylinders. So hearing this and Andrew Hawkins discuss the possibilities with this type of CAS and the RB oiling issues is very interesting.
My question is this : what do you think about Kevlar timing belts? Do they have less deflection/stretch and help maintain a more consistent ignition timing? Are they better in any way, besides aesthetics?
Thanks and cheers all the way from Belgium!
They deff help. On blown V8 engines running big boost these belt deff help with belt stretch. How available they are for this application i can't say. I personally haven't come across them for an RB T/Belt
I found it was high rpm where the miscounts happend more than cam size etc...
Cutting motive dvds lunch on this video. Herman gonna have to start charging for video apperances
I lol everytime a person says the cams spin twice the speed of the engine.
Hello just watched the vid.
Currently doing the mod on a ca18 and a rb26.
Do you guys reckon that doing the 12-1 plus one on cam would eliminate the problem of cam and crank pulses overlaping because of belt stretch?
I have the prp brackets on both engines and cherry gs1000502.
I am in doubt about deleting or not one of the tooth (the one about 90deg btdc) OR use the 12+1 setup.
The real timing jedi's will also be worrying about the torsional deflection of the crank itself! CAS on the nose, with a "long" 6 cyl crank on an engine running big torque (high cylinder pressure = high bending moment on crank) means the rear cyls see signifcant angular offsets. Using two CAS sensors (one on the nose, one on the flywheel) i've measured up to 11 degCA of deflection on a high boost race engine.........
I have only 1 question: are the Hall Sensors more reliable now? Back in the days the S1 and S2 sensors were notoriously unreliable and would die on you anywhere for no reason which for a daily driven street car is a nightmare as it would leave the driver stranded; and certainly inconvenient if its a track car. Never had those issues with Magnetic Reluctance except the odd occasion if the MSD8509 would die. I think I've only seen one case of that.
I have a question re: the part where they mention that you don't want a crank trigger event to happen over a cam trigger event? Can someone explain why? How would you adjust them? I assume the cam/crank triggers from this kit are notched/keyed to they can only install one way?
Great video! On the subject of belt deflection and timing drift, do distributors with built in trigger and sync suffer the same or to a lesser degree?
If like on an RB30 and most other engines, the dizzy is run off the cam- then YES. The longer the belt or chain the more timing varience. On a pushrod V8 you would see this to a lesser extent because the timing chain/belt is so small or with a gear driven systen it dependes on how much backlash it has
Thank you, I love your channel RUclips, PrP when the system of camshaft by engranage for the rb?😎👍
Geardriven!?sorry im french, billet front plate with gear support plus futur to Bolt a mecanical fuel pump ,the right matériel and construction ,with CAD all dream come true!!😁8 degrees at High rpm that a lot of Power lost!!I think Nissan fj20 engine in the 80 gave this système!!
Damn I needed this video Hermann. Thanks Scott. Would. Have been nice to set up the mechanical synchronization of these gears the way Hermann mention, on a display motor. Great job.
Not a bad idea - we might do that in the future:)
I agree, It would help greatly watching it on a display engine.
While I do understand how it's meant to work roughly, I am unfortunately, one of those poor suckers that learns "hands on" rather than "text book" style.
Cheers guys.
Herman is really earning his pay here as the sexy assistant :P
Please call him Hermaine from now on.
@@haltech HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
So what about the cam being out of sync with the crank, valve timing wise. Does this not matter as much as ignition timing?
Hey, could a faulty cam or crank sensor cause the tacho to be jumpy or/and not move?
My car works fine its JUST the tacho that is twitchy.
I reckon standard cas and crank sensor will do same same job if we join the wires all the way to main loom with using alot of other stuffs am i right
How reliable is the crank/cam sync on a chain driven Nissan like a SR? The megasquirt guys swap out CAS discs on SR engines and I always assumed that was due to the high "tooth" count of the OEM CAS overhelming the processor on the MS. Does a Haltech, either Platinum or Elite series, require (or recommend) any CAS changed to support an SR?
Chain driven engines like the SR certainly have less crank to cam movement, however when fitting large valve springs you still have the same issue. The SR CAS is driven on a worm drive which increases this “lash” when you start making power.Swapping out the CAS disk to a 24 pulse and single pulse doesn’t really fix any problem as the CAS is still mounted off the worm drive to the camshaft. If anything, swapping the disk out helps ECUs that can’t interface with the standard disk (Haltech ECUs have interfaced with the stock Nissan disks for at least 15 years!)
I am about to start a project on a 2001 nissan pathfinder 4wd and have a few questions about the elite 2500 that haltech usa could not answer completely. Who can I talk to about this?Love the products, keep up the good work!
Email us on support@haltech.com and one of our tech guys will be able to help you out:)
Do chain driven engines such as the sr suffer the same amount of play?
Well this was extremely informative… I wish I understood half of it… if there were a deeper dive with a “dummy” version would be really helpful… like when you’re saying positioning the crank sensor 20° off tooth to coincide with the cam senor, how literally are you doing that… like measuring the angle of the crank teeth? And like would you use a micrometer to measure that?
But yeah it would be nice to have a “I don’t understand this” version all the way up to even more technical than this! I’m sure everybody could learn from both
I’m such a nerd 🤓 I love this shit !
What is the minimum tooth count needed to have a Home on the crank wheel?
Something that im wondering about, can you place the cam-home-tooth at any degree of the cam? Im wondering since im trying to convert a old dizzycap engine to a coil on plug with fully sequential ignition/injection. Is this something you can adjust for in the software, say that in my perticular setup i have a 60-2 crank trigger pattern and one cam signal. And i was thinking about getting a HALL-sensor for the 60-2 crank but i guess i'll go back to stock VR then? :)
Thanks in advance! I love these videos keep them up! :D
Yes any degree will work. I used a cam lobe as the tooth on my motorcycle, it's nowhere near where tdc would be
@@scottgiebler5858 Thanks a bunch! :)
60-2 trigger wheels typically use a Reluctor sensor in factory applications, however something like the GM LS2 uses a 60-2 crank trigger with a Hall Effect pickup - If you want to convert to Hall Effect maybe look at this sensor?You can place the Home pulse anywhere you like on the camshaft, then use the Haltech TDC Offset angle to synchronise the ECU ignition timing with the engine Ignition timing and you are good to go.
@@haltech I used the cherry red hall sensors on 60-2 wheels without any problems on lots of cars, in fact I avoid reluctor sensors at all cost since they can be a pain and produce a very noisy signal. Here is an example of one car I build running the sport 1000 ruclips.net/video/Do0BK2Ycm_g/видео.html
I have one question. Is my understanding that the Elite 1500/2500 ecu's don't care where the home happens and how many teeth the crank wheel has, with that said, will I be able to use my 153 tooth flywheel as a crank reference with a home on the cam? Thanks!
Will the PRP trigger kit work with older ECUs such as factory nissan or apexi etc?
MRMOPARMAN0426 no
So if my RB is stalling after it starts misfiring that I notice after I see my rpms climb all jumpy on the rpm gauge then my cas may be the cause?
Would it be possible to make the "key tooth" just shorter or thinner? It should provide a different wave and should still be identifiable as the "key tooth".
Deff possible
In regards to slack and chatter from cam belt slack and raised compression and higher rpm etc, would this be the same or similar for chain driven cams, like an sr20ve?
The deflection still occurs with chain driven timing gear however to a much lesser degree. Chains have less stretch and typically have shorter runs between tensioners/gears resulting in less lash.
Awsome video. 👍🏻
I’m helping a friend with his rb engine, we think we have problems with the cas. He has a original cas with 24+1 tooth on it. But we are thinking to change to a dual sensor system. Do we need to change anything in the program to get it working like it should?
The problem we have now is that the engine is hesitating when we go from idle to maybe 10% throttle. It’s sounds like it’s sucking air and we can feel the same frequency as the sound like vibration on the fuel rail.
We will try with a different cas first but we need to change the disc in it first to 24+1 disc.
Do you guys think it’s would be cas problem or is it anything else?
If we remove the connection for the throttle sensor the sound is gone. And also we have a error code on the cas. (We have not been able to get the engine running with the original disc in the cas)
Sounds like a sticky TPS. If possible check the TPS reading in software or via the signal wire. Does it correspond with actual throttle position?
If you were having trigger issues I highly doubt that the car would run good under any condition.
@@meusana3681 thanks for the answer. But the problem is still there and now we have changed to a split sensor. One for the camshaft and one for the crank
with the RB being pushed further yearly obviously the t belt stretch becomes more of a problem. Is there a mechanical solution to this problem, i.e. timing gears? I personally haven't seen any products out there like that for the RB, but is that a possibility in the future or is it even feasible?
I also have the same question. Sureley a belt could be developed that suffers considerably less stretch in order to introduce even more accuracy to the system i.e Kevlar? Or a better tensioning system that can create better dynamic control of the belt as it stretches?
I have the CA18det,using a similar Mitsubishi made CAS, they suffer from the drive splines in the exhaust cam wearing away and the ignition timing wanders back and forth, the cas splines do wear but not as much,like one is softer hardness than the other,I bought some Jun 264 cams & new cas to fix that issue
also 8 degrees from belt deflection was an eye opener, is the belt actually stretching or is it because the belt can move a lot on the long runs ( no guides like the SR20 chain drive has either side) and the timing wander is from belt going slack/tight with the deflection ?
Absolutely right on the drive wear and the cam drive would wear a lot faster than the CAS drive. Ideally the drive should be greased to help slow down the wear. Often you would find a worn spline drive completely dry and the CAS would be full of iron filings, once the wear starts and you get some backlash it just wears out super fast. One of the other issues is slight off-centering/misalignment of the CAS due to machining tolerences in the CAS bracket and the mounting points on the engine which could cause a slight wobble and faster wear. The drive in the exhaust cam was pressed in and it is possible to replace them but amusingly nissan never offered it as a replacement part, although I think there were some available aftermarket.
Interestingly in the r34 rb25/26 engines they changed the drive from a multi-tooth spline to a single slot drive.
Never knew about the issue of camshaft backlash and belt stretch although that isn't really a nissan specific problem.
You are right, the spine drive does wear out. This is a replaceable part, if you can get it out you can still buy a replacement sleeve that you can press back in there.On the RB the belt is stretching, but the effect would have more to do with the long belt runs and the slapping back and forth on each tooth.Take a look at this data log (link below) showing the Cam tooth position between two crank teeth during a dyno pull, 0% being on top of one crank tooth and 100% being on top of the next crank tooth (30 crank degrees later). This log is from a low-ish powered car (14-18psi boost pressure) and shows 3.45 degrees of deflection - Lucky the ignition timing is being calculated off the crank teeth!
bit.ly/2FcnfTj
Can you have more than 1 tooth for the cam sensor? For example. If you have a crank trigger wheel with 36:1 teeth. Would you be better having a 1 tooth cam trigger wheel? Or would more teeth be better?
The type of sensor on the crank in the kit likes less teeth ie 12, NOT 36. as explained at the start of the video. If you want to use 36T you need a reluctor style sensor.
Would a kevlar composite belt help reduce belt lash?
Defiantly
This is probably an amateur question, but I'm curious. Do engines with timing chains instead of belts see the same magnitude of deflection?
no actually!
Is there anything for auto tb48s plug and play? Apprently hp tuners has been looking into it?
We've had a PnP for TB48 for ages: www.haltech.com/product/ht-055014-platinum-pro-plug-in-ecu/
I totally clicked this video expecting a talk on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HICAS but this is Haltech so I have no idea why I thought that.
aeight, it was aeight degrees :-)
Different topic but if I turbo’d a Hyundai Tiburon 4cyl 2.0L. What ecu would u recommend? Elite 550 or 750 ? Etc
You can use an Elite 550/750/950 but if you want to support all OEM functionality you'll need Elite 1000 or 1500.
Haltech so the 550/750/950 would act more as a piggy back ? And the 1000/1500 would be a stand-alone ?
Sorry, what do u mean by oem functionality that the 1000/1500 provide that the 550/750 don’t.
Any ECU would run the machine but sounds like you'd need an elite 1000 to support all the factory features whatever they may be. I haven't looked at all into this
Some European engines mount the crank sensor on the flywheel side of the crankshaft. I believe there is some vw tdi v6 out there that even has all the timing chain business on the back side of the engine also. Sounds horrifying if it does a chain guide as they like to do
Do chain driven cams suffer the deflection issue?
Yes, just to a lesser extent when new- but equally so as they begin to age and stretch and/or the timing chain guide starts to wear (quiet often you'll see both at the same time)
Then why does jun still use the factory cam sensor? And its the doing 6.9 with no problems
Yes, they use the factory CAS... with a custom trigger disk inside it with a single pulse only! This is exactly the same as replacing the CAS with a single pulse cam trigger kit.
In fact, it uses exactly the same crank trigger as the one shown in this video.
Right, going to make a pushrod RB then 4000kw here I come
Please do a Dino example of that
I'll try my best... RAwwwwwrr!!!
On a Godzilla 🦖 lol
Lol
so if you knock a tooth of its no longer full sequential injector?
Knocking a tooth off the crank trigger (resulting in a trigger wheel with 11 teeth or 12-1) will offer a unique event on the crankshaft. This allows the ECU to determine “Half Cycle” synchronisation, this means the ECU would then know which cylinder is coming up to Top Dead Centre but would not know if the cylinder was coming up to the Compression or Exhaust stroke so it would fire 2 spark plugs and 2 injectors at a time (Wasted Spark and Semi-Sequential injection).If you add a single pulse on the camshaft you would then have a “Full Cycle” trigger system and full sequential operation.
Thanks so what is the setting required in the haltech software to allow for belt deflection?
thought this was going to be about HICAS lol
I'm interested to know why you don't just put two sets of teeth on the crank sensor so there is no stretch to worry about....
That is effectively what the 12-1 tooth count is.
and then the belt stretches and the cam is still retarded by the 4-8 degrees
First 5 min, Herman looks like he's wondering "when is this bloke gonna stop talking so I can sell my shit?"
JK, as always, great informative content boys.
Couldnt this be solved by going chain instead of belt ik chains have there own problems but still?
When the chain is new it would show less deflection, but as the chains and guides wear it'll start to do it just as much, maybe even worse eventually as timing chains don't get replaced as often- people use them for 10+ years at a time, even in a performance application
Daniel Brealey do you work for Haltech ?
@@braddusfaction5996 I'm a qualified mechanic of 19 years, an engine builder and tuner. I just happen to use a lot of their ECU's on customers cars. These are the types of questions i get asked on a daily basis. What do you do for a living? LOL! You got any criticism of what I've said here, or anywhere for that matter. Let's hear it then... Pretty simple question, don't have to work for Haltec to answer that- or anything asked on this comments section. I also happen to own a really serious RB engine, which i have owned for 10 years
Daniel Brealey no criticism at all my friend was just going through comments and noticed you had answered a couple of questions for some people ! We all appreciate some free advice from someone in the industry ! Cheers mate keep it up & Thankyou !
@@braddusfaction5996 No probs bro- i remember being young and wanting to learn everything i could. Just trying to do my bit for the car community. Cheers
Such garbage, this is why belt driven camshafts have gone to the wayside. Even in newer 15L diesel engines who use small, intake and exhaust camshafts up inside the head, they use gears to drive the camshafts. You literally don't have to do any service to the valvetrain for 1.2 million miles......
Truck engines are a whole different kettle of fish to passenger car motors.
If you were the nissan CEO, would you be prepared to add a substantial amount to the engineering and production of a motor by making it gear drive, for a motor thats expected to last roughly 200k miles? As CEO, are you building an engine to handle 206kw, or 800kw?
Yeah belt drives are pretty average for performance work, but they serve a purpose.
sounds to hard just give up