The Hypocrisy of "Former Christians were Never Christians" (McDowell/Childers/Barnett response)
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- Опубликовано: 16 янв 2024
- A movement called ‘deconstruction’ is sweeping through our churches and it is affecting our loved ones. What is deconstruction? Should Christians be concerned about it? Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett have a new book coming out in early 2024 in which they examine this movement in depth. They join Sean McDowell to explain why former Christians were never Christians.
#deconstruction #exvangelical
The Deconstruction of Christianity (ft. Alisa Childers, Tim Barnett)
• The Deconstruction of ...
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@14:13 I'm with Paul on this one, but I think the idea needs some fleshing out that is often missed, and seems to be missed by both Childers and Tim, in his ridiculous hat. (Does Tim think that he is 17 years old?)
No confessing Christian anywhere, ever would concede that the death of Jesus was a "child sacrifice." I am convinced that even Deconstruction Girl-when she was still a Christian-never considered this-at least, she did not in those terms. The reason for that is because of how heavily glossed the theology of the atonement has become through years of cultural and religious development and change over centuries. We are so far removed from beliefs in the efficacy of child sacrifice that such ideas have been repulsive for a very long time.
But, as Paul rightly points out, the IDEA is inherent in the original event, and this is what we are getting at when talking about the atonement in terms of a child sacrifice. More simply, the atonement is a form of blood magic-as is all sacrifice-and this is engrained within belief of what the crucifixion was all about. Romans 3:23-25 says: "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, WHOM GOD PUT FORWARD AS A SACRIFICE OF ATONEMENT BY HIS BLOOD."
On this model the atonement ONLY works if one believes that blood deliberately shed of an "unblemished" living being will necessarily effect a transformation in the will and action of God. Since Jesus was a human, this is absolutely a form of human sacrifice. That Jesus was thought to be God's son, there is no question that this was a form of "child" sacrifice. Whether or not Jesus was a willing participant is irrelevant to what the first Christians unambiguously understood his crucifixion to mean. The tragic part of this is that-while mid-life crisis Tim and Alyssa may be clueless about this vital theological tenet-huge numbers of Christians, including myself while I still believed, very clearly understood the purpose and the implications of this horrifying idea, even if we did not have the words to express it. Shame on us.
I’ll pay for my own sins, as I’m an adult. Also, Yahweh demanded child sacrifice at one point, early on, as commanded in Exodus and explained in Ezekiel.
I did a video on this idea, “passing the firstborn son through the fire” and Christians lose their sh*t about the topic. Sorry, Xians, your God was pretty much the same as similar gods of the day.
You should do a video on blood sacrifice as understood in the first century (and earlier) and why it’s foundational to early Christian theories of atonement! Maybe tag team with Dan McClellan or others. I don’t think it’s something most Christians have thought it though very deeply.
I would neber call it a child sacrifice.
I definetily would call it both a human sacrifice and or blood sacrifice.
The age and willingness of the sacrifice is largly irrelevant for the ethicacy of the entire story.
It is at least seemingly an unescessary act.
More intent of dramaturgi than nescessity.
My guess for the hat? An appeal to young people.
Excellent comment Kipp!
"you were never a real Christian" is just their fear speaking -- they don't want to entertain the idea it could happen to them
That's exactly where I was about a year ago. I was coming across channels like Paulogia or Genetically Modified Skeptic, and I was scared because they were describing testimonies of being extremely involved in Christianity (much like I was) and how if it happened to them, it could happen to me
A very obvious No True Scotsman fallacy as well
What they are, in essence, saying is that you cannot call ANYONE a christian until they are dead.
You can't anyway, as there are no christians in the world. christianity, if it ever existed, died out about 2000 years ago, to be superseded by fan fiction and the words of blatant plagiarists, liars and at least one nutter, none of who had ever met Jesus , some of whom didn't know the area, or Jewish ways at the time, and who didn't write anything until decades after his alleged life and death. Note, also, that some of the words attributed to Jesus were when he was supposed to be alone, and so no one would have known what was said.
They never want to address the fact that there is no evidence for any of their fables. It is scary to them and they need to protect their delusions.
I was told to read the Bible. I read it and called out some pretty disgusting and hypocritical behavior, then I was told that it doesn’t matter because I’m not Christian so I won’t understand. Which is it?
"We Christians should share our beliefs. You non-Christians shouldn't share your beliefs."
Ha yes I noticed that one too.
Blatant hypocrites in their words and actions.
I wonder if they really don't know that the word child in English can mean "the son or daughter of human parents, regardless of age."
@@umbombTo be fair “child”, when talking about “child sacrifice”, generally refers to the age of the victim, not whether or not the person doing the sacrifice is the victim’s parent
"Generally?" "To be fair?" Let's be legalistic. How about "human" sacrifice? How about "animal" sacrifice? Words have definitions. Logic is logic. (And both humor and rhetoric regularly employ exaggeration.) Peace unto you, my child.
They say with a straight face that the defining experience of a Christian is feeling overwhelming guilt and shame for existing. And then wonder why people find their beliefs toxic and unappealing.
Then perform the mental gymnastics to make it not God's fault when he set you up to be the very thing he despises in the first place.
This. He DARED call us a non Christian when we believed. The horrors of hell and the absolute certainty god was the way was my life. And he failed to show up like an absentee father on every event I needed him. So even if real, not worthy of my worship. I spit on the ground of this poison.
@@uncleanunicorn4571 God punishing people for sinning after making them to sin when he’s supposedly all-knowing, -powerful, and -benevolent is kind of like an inventor making a robot to smash people in the junk with a hammer, then getting mad that the robot smashes people in the junk with a hammer. It’s doing what it was meant to do by your design, why are you getting mad about it?
This is the stuff I viscerally, most strongly hate about religions (or at least the abrahamic ones), the overwhelming, open-mouth sobbing, the grief they plant in you and expectantly wait for you to experience. It is cruelty. It is disgusting abuse. You can't do this to a kid. It's been happening for a thousand years too long. It needs to stop.
@Xenobears "buhh buhh free will" they will cry, not acknowledging that undiluted free will is a very problematic claim, and if that is not their claim, then there is no obstacle to god simply... not making the people that'll be predestined for hell, or preventing them from going through with evil acts even if they have the will to do so.
And, like, friggin', if this is a test to see which house we should be sorted into (heaven or hell), why bother with this miserable middleman in the first place? Just make people that are predestined for heaven... in heaven. And those who will be predestined for hell, make them already in hell- or, better yet, don't go through with making them???????
The religion is silly in many ways, but when its silly beliefs are taken seriously and then put into practice, they become more thsn judt silly, they become disgusting
"I can't judge anyone's heart", then immediately states that he thinks most people who deconvert were never really christian. Dude, that's judging someones heart, did he even think before he spoke?
Even better the bible clearly states that were not to judge our neighbor, only god can judge.
Their statement is similar in structure to "I'm not a racist but..."
Christians have just the worst sort of flip flopping on this. I think mostly to protect themselves from having to actually face a person they respect and love and fully believe and process the idea of them suffering eternally because they aren't convinced of the truth of Christianity. My former church is big on using the "I can't judge your heart to know whether or not you are going to heaven". Which if I want to have an actual conversation with them I will respond: "Sure, I appreciate the fact that you don't think you can read my mind. So I will be honest with you about my thoughts to help out; based on what I know of the theology from when I was part of the church and what I truly believe now, if you could read my mind currently I am quite sure that you would be certain I'm going to hell." Then we can have a real discussion about the fact that their theology does in fact put real people they know into the "will deservedly suffer eternally while they have everlasting bliss" category, and how they square that with a perfectly just and loving God.
If apologists didn’t have hypocrisy then they really wouldn’t have much.
Christianity is so antithetical to actual critical thinking that this question is redundant.
@@matthewnitz8367I think the issue is more psychological self-protection. Their 'eternally true' faith to them has to be unassailable. No-one who 'really knows' this eternal truth could ever possibly fall from the faith. Admitting that an actual fervent believer renounced his faith because he found it no longer convincing, logically means that THEY could likewise lose their faith, and if THAT is possible, they'd have to face the fact that maybe the faith is based on nothing of substance. And that in turn means upending an entire worldview and internal foundation. Therefore no doubt can be entertained or tolerated.
Oooh this one pisses me off. I was a die-hard, born-again, conservative evangelical for 20 years. And these people would have the gall to tell me I never really believed. The sheer audacity it takes to think you can hand-wave away people's lived experience and know their innermost thoughts, all because if you admitted differently, you'd have to acknowledge you're wrong.
No no, not you, just MOST people *eye rolls back into head*.
This is the "No true Scotsmen" fallacy. A type of tautology.
A Scot says "All Scots like haggis". His companion replies, "I know some Scots who don't like it". The Scot replies, "well no TRUE Scotsman doesn't like haggis".
It is frequently used by victums of blind faith.
@@j3i2i2yl7 very true.
Me too. Makes my head explode 🤯.
@@j3i2i2yl7 Once born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit), always born of the Spirit. Just as once born of your parents always a child of your parents.
If I was a Christian bothered by the idea that the central idea of my belief was human sacrifice, saying "don't worry, he was an adult," would not make that go away.
It was also a pedantically ridiculous response. To most decent parents, their children will always be their "child" whether 3 years old, 33 years old, or 60 years old. Parents would generally be extremely upset if their child were harmed regardless of their age.
It was just a stupid gotcha response to what was, admittedly, a deliberately provocative description of the plan of salvation.
To ancient people the claim was not provocative at all but was a commonly accepted doctrine. See Jacob-Isaac / God-Jesus. It's only in a modern context that Christians find the claim provocative, forcing them to rationalize what is an obviously odious idea.
If you think about it, it's a child non-sacrifice. After all, if one sacrifices a lamb, and three days later that lamb is back in your sheep pen just like before, AS YOU KNEW IT WOULD BE, did you really sacrifice anything? I think the answer is no. The whole doctrine of Jesus being a sacrifice for everyone's sins is ridiculous in itself.
Also, they mention how it was not a child sacrifice, but I have heard so many Christians say that the story of Abraham and Isaac pointed us to Jesus. If this is the case then Christians are basically admitting that child sacrifice would have happened but the only way to stop it is to sacrifice something else in that child's place.
How about, I don't know, just not sacrificing?
@@PiRobot314 The bottom line with Christianity is their "morality" is nothing more than "whatever god tells me to do at any given moment." Which, in reality, means "whatever the voices in my head tell me to do." It's a lack of morality, really.
Nothing makes me more irrationally angry than when a Christian who's never met me claims to know for a fact that I was never a Christian. I've never thrown hands before, but that is the most likely reason to push me over the edge. You DO NOT get to invalidate my life experience like that.
That’s my biggest fear-I spent FORTY YEARS as a believer, teacher, minister, etc. HOW DARE someone tell me I never believed?
Why prove them right them, the bible says it would be better to never believed than to have believed, then walk away.
Irrationally?
@@ArthurTurner-bm1fn good point
Seems like if they wanted to talk about the experience of deconstructers, they should... have one on their panel, no?
Naaahhhhhhhh
You're assuming that is what they actually want to do.
How could they control the narrative that way?
Then they would have to move their straw man out of the studio and that's just too much work.
You are asking too much of them, what is next? If they want to talk about science they should have someone with a science degree? Preposterous!!!
8:37 "I would never take a Gatorade bottle and put antifreeze in it and just leave it out"
What a fitting analogy to the Garden of Eden.
But Christians will say ( I used to be a believer ) that after placing the antifreeze in the Gatorade bottle that God then warned A&E not to drink it therefore God is innocent.
@@xipetotec8700 No born-again believer can ever say I used to be a believer.
Once born of the Spirit (Holy Spirit), always born of the Spirit. Just as once born of your parents always a child of your parents.
@@xipetotec8700 And then I'd say that God created the serpent.
In this case it would be like knowing that someone will be hanging around the bottle of antifreeze trying to convince people to drink it.
It goes even further than that. Leaving out a bottle of Gatorade with antifreeze in it where a person who DOES NOT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG can have access to it AND also letting a beguiling, salesman far cleverer than they are, have their full way with them to persuade them to drink it.
@@alieninthecaribbean Not to mention CREATING that salesman as well.
Who are they to tell us what we really are or are not. For a group of self-proclaimed people who praises humility as a virtue, they surely have no humility at all.
It's utterly condescending on their part.
Well, they have a book that tells them what everybody in the history of the universe knows and thinks about the main character of the book (including those who never heard of it).
And obviously, as with the internet and television, we can trust literally everything from an anonymously written book from 2,000-3,000 years ago.
That's the dichotomy of fundamental Christianity -- it's all about humility except when it's not, which is whenever they feel like it.
They are proclaiming their humility... Reminds me of a line from a Weird Al song Amish paradise, something about knowing that I'm a hundred times more humble than you.
For me, I don't blame the lack of humility, or even make the claim that they lack it. It's their prerogative, like anyone's to think things through and make a judgment. My issue is just how incredibly wrong they are. It's wild.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that Sean 'McDowell' is not truly a Scotsman.
Underrated joke
😂😂😂
@@SethRGray Thanks 😁
Looks like an Irish name. Is that the joke?
@@Plethorality I'm going to take your comment at face value....
No it's a " No true Scotsman fallacy" joke
They are right. Until I left the church, I didn't get it. I was too invested in believing what I wanted to be true.
Oh, snap!
We tried so hard.
And eventually couldn't ignore the fact that we were literally doing make-believe.
I didn’t deconstruct my faith. It just fell apart by itself as I learned more and more about the Bible. The people who are informing the public about the Bible, history and science are not recruiting atheists. The apologists, as usual, just make sh*t up to excuse the inconsistencies and falsehoods they want to hide.
*The road to atheism is paved with Bibles that have actually been **_read._*
What version were you readimg?
The same as regular Christians.
The contrast between the panel's self-deluded (or dishonest) smugness and Paul's sincerity, insight, and willingness to be open about his own experience is so powerful.
This is so true. So many Christian apologists and speakers have that cloying air of smugness around them that I find such a barrier. When I occasionally find an apologist who doesn't exhibit that snugness, they are so much more engaging, and I find myself more interested in what they have to say. However, that air of smugness works for other believers, providing confirmation for their own beliefs.
Interestingly, one Christian apologist that did present himself with more apparent humility was Ravi Zacharius, although as I listened to him more I realised this hid a narcissism that would sometimes show itself. I found out more about him, and came to learn that only did he lie about his academic achievements, he was likely a sexual predator. After his death, the truth emerged that he was indeed a very nasty sexual predator.
Is the smugness of believers self delusion or dishonest? Actually, it does seem to be both.
Specifically, Christians like this have the smugness of Draco Malfoy. The kind that you can only get by thinking you're backed up in everything you do by an undefeatable bodyguard. In this case, they believe they have the backing of the all-knowing creator of the universe who has shared large swathes of Truth with them. What they don't realize is that as soon as the knowledge and wisdom of their supposedly perfect bodyguard is put to the test, it crumbles to dust faster than Quirrel did.
So much of evangelism is basically sales. It always perturbed me.
If only believers didn't see smugness and a testament to faith
@@93Current Todd Friel comes to mind. I honestly can't understand how any evangelicals take him seriously.
"You were never really a Christian" is my cue to exit the conversation. Someone who claims to know me better than I know myself because their magic book told them so clearly isn't going to listen to anything I say, so why waste my breath?
The fact that they need a magic book at all to prove they're good people is what baffles me? Like why do you need a book a human being wrote to know you shouldn't be an asshole to others?
@@eldenlion5850why did you go to school?
People (believers and non) develop worldviews, consisting of webs of beliefs. I share your feeling that believers' claims that we deconverts never believed are maddening. And it can surely be a defense mechanism that can hinder or prevent them from listening or considering to our experiences and ideas.
On the other hand, it is in their book, and it's consistent with their belief webs, so I can understand why they think so. I wouldn't expect to break through in 1 conversation, but some people (like us) do reconsider. These conversations can be valuable.
This is very similar to my thought process, but kinda flipped. I often question those who say such things with: “If you, from the outset, already assume your interlocutor is a liar, why are you wasting energy and time on this conversation?”
With the hopes that some small part of them realizes they can’t truly justify or don’t really believe everyone else is lying. Idk. Any sort of (de)conversion is a game of small bits, so maybe it’ll help someone somewhere in some small way.
@@coruscanta Solomon was converted to evil. He went back to God though. You prob don't want to think about the evil things that he possibly did or asociated himself with.
I was a believer from age 5 (Pentecostal). I went to Jesus camps every summer with all my cousins. My aunts and uncles were counselors. This was Roaring Springs camp btw lol. Religion was my whole life. After y2k my parents joined the Mennonites. It was everything, 3+x a week at church, with the community 24/7, week long Youth Bible Schools two or three times a year. Of course I was a true believer, through and through. What changed me was a love of science and history, and access to the whole world of information for free at a collegiate level. I read the Bible through at least once every year, and studied the lives and writings of the great evangelicals and religious leaders & thinkers of all the eras. I read psalms and proverbs through once a month. I was always praying. So... their dismissiveness... Come on. One of my last decisions while religious was that I trusted God so much that I had faith that religion, if it was real, could stand up to any scrutiny. And guess what it didn’t pass the test.
Ew why is he bothering with clickbait IG profiles. Dude lol they are so dishonest lol to go that ridiculous for their boogeyman. I’m so glad I’m out of that world.
I grew up Jehovah's Witness and my whole world was that religion as well. Then, in 1996 I got online and dared to look at critical websites and found that a lot that I thought was true wasn't true. It took me a little while because the JW organization works like clockwork, and you could go anywhere in the world and fellow JWs would all believe the vet same things. The structure was pretty impressive and that's why I thought things could be reformed. After a few months I realized it was too lost and I quit and went on a mission to study the Bible, and evolution, and alternate philosophies and it was a great time. These days I find myself missing aspects of that JW world, I mean it makes you feel like you've got the world by the balls and you've always got people to help you through things. But no amount of Jesus Juice is going to make me believe in any Christian nonsense and I'm not really one to fake it to make it.
What do you think about the Christian apologists that spout this nonsense?
Are they just naive believers with unshakable faith and arrogance?
Are they on the defensive side because their livelihoods are at risk because their flocks are slowly dwindling?
Do they do it because they believe faith in the Christian god is the only agent/influence of morality? Without it, they believe we would all be doomed?
I was a member of :the way international' throughout my teens and I believed as hard as you did.
The mistake they made was teaching me how to read king James English.
Once I understood what I was ready it was just too stupid to take seriously.
After that I quickly thought fell away from xianity-
All of it not just my cult.
Can't edit on this phone hope you can get the gist
When Calvinism says a person was _”never Christian in the first place,”_ it’s is not doubting said person’s sincerity and devotion. It’s doubting that person’s status of election. In Calvinism, a true Christian has _”saving faith”_ that can only be granted by God as a gift. It comes with being part of God’s elect. Of course, a non-elect person can see Christianity, believe in, and admire it, and even joint the group. However, if God didn’t elect said person, they’re not saved.
When my 33yrs of Christianity came to a crshing end, I tried to free as many people as i could from the shackles of religion.
When I finally find an escape hatch, of course, I would let my fellow prisoners know where it is.
You would kind of be a jerk not to.
Whether they choose to take advantage of it and use it is, of course, completely up to them. Some people just seem to insist on remaining prisoners.
For me it was 35 years.I've been trying ever since to get through to evangelicals in their comment sections on their respective channels.So far, no dice.
Can you please name your reasoning on why you guys left?
"Shackles of religion" isn't the same as being bound to Christ.
@@shriggs55
So you're still an "evangelist" you just now preach a different "gospel".
This seems to be a reaction of the butthurt. Plus, they get to say, "We are the true Christians, unlike those posers that left us."
Copium fest. 😅😉
I'd argue that last bit is all that this is really about. It's all a big exercise in maintaining social boundaries.
Though I think Panse puts it better. They do be huffing the purest copium.
Yeah and maybe also combined with the shock that its actually over for those who left. They are forced to face the fact that they are gone and can't tell themselves it will become better one day.
Sean: I can't judge hearts
Paul: but you do.
So true. Christians are so often the most judging people I've ever known.
I think Sean is actually concerned about the judgemental attitude towards former Christians. Even in that interview - closer to the end - he seemed to be saying "I'm on your team but calling people wolves might be less effective than being willing to have good faith discussions and agreeing to disagree."
He said most former Christians weren't real Christians. That's a judgement.
@@Hobbes250 I was an evangelical. Now I'm embarrassed and ashamed about how I was able to rationalise that it was reliable and that I tried to teach it to others, especially kids. But at the time my conscience was clean (even when I started to have doubts, strangely enough). So I think most evangelicals are irrational and indoctrinating their kids. But I don't question their integrity.
I feel Sean does try to remind Christians not to question the integrity of people who have left. I guess he might say that something just never clicked for them or they never had that "Aha" moment. To be fair, I wonder the same thing about apologists.
I’m really not sure how one is supposed to measure judging. I know many on both sides. It seems to me that it’s more a case of different sets of values. And Christians have a reason to think it matters more than non-Christians. At the same time, Christian’s have a positive reason for giving grace.
I know many agnostics who can be very judgmental. If a person doesn’t agree with them about something. Especially the environment, sexuality, war, immigration, vaccines, etc. then you are a bad person.
So, yeah, not sure how to measure that.
@@jrhemmerich I understand it's about values. My comment was about my personal experience. That's how I measure it. It's not an equation, it's just a feeling.
When I was in, there was always this fear of being deemed bad association for things that now seem mundane. Things like how your hair/facial hair is done, what music you enjoy, who your friends are, if you wanted to go to college, how often you attend the services, whether you participate in church activities, etc. All of these combine to decide whether someone is a good Christian or not in the minds of the Elders.
Obviously judging is not exclusively Christian. We all do it to some extent.
As a child in an evangelical home, I doubted whether I was truly saved even even though I prayed and went to church tried to do everything I could think of to truly be saved. I was absolutely terrified of hell and afraid that I wasn’t doing Christianity right. These people’s world view is a nightmare.
I think religion does more harm to those who are intelligent and take it seriously. The surface level Christians who perform without ever thinking deeply don’t get bothered by agonizing doubt.
One of the devious things about Christianity is how just a subtle change in your interpretation, a slight difference in how your mind works, can make one person think their version of Christianity is amazing and helpful and immensely comforting. While someone else in that same version of Christianity finds it terrifying and frightening and nightmarish. For reasonable worldviews that recognize people have differences and need different things in life and interpret the world in different ways, this wouldn't be a problem. Those people don't need to believe the exact same way as us if it is harmful to them. But Christianity instead takes the people that it has harmed and grinds them down further for it's own benefit, saying there is something WRONG with them for being harmed by the beliefs, that THEY are bad people for being afraid of eternal torment when the church so clearly promised a blissful eternal life... that they had no tangible way to verify or know actually existed or be sure they had the right criteria, hence the entirely reasonable and healthy doubt and uncertainty.
"You would be as happy as me in Christianity if you weren't so stubborn and sinful and rebellious... like I am too being a sinner obviously, but luckily God picked me to be specially saved" is such a cynical way to view the millions of people that disagree with you.
That is the entire strategy of the theology.
Being saved isn't about what you think you need to do, it's about what Jesus has done for you.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 If it is only about what Jesus has done, is everyone all good and nobody needs to worry about hell or annihilation regardless of what they believe is true?
I'm glad you tackled this one because it hurt my soul when I saw it originally. It's insane to me that they wrote a book about the inner thought lives of people they made absolutely no effort to understand or empathise with.
Welcome to the world of presuppositional apologetics.
Don't communicate, just make up reasons why people left.
They have to somehow invalidate those who left so they can maintain their sheep.
this is so on point
To be fair sociopaths can’t empathize
I had the same questions for the final calvinist church I belonged to that almost insisted you homeschool your kids or send them to their school. If no one can steal a person from the father's hand, why are you worried about them going to a public school? They blamed public education for people leaving the faith or never joining it, at the same time claiming they believed God chooses whom he shall mercy to.
How dare you use the objective case of "who".
Did you go to my church? lol
My background is Jehovah's Witness and I've wondered why they don't advocate for home schooling, but the reason is JW kids are supposed to display their faith and preach to other kids so they go to public school. I remember 9th grade biology, sat next to a super hot and popular 10th grader who actually liked me, but being a JW meant it couldn't go anywhere, anyway the teacher opened one class by saying 'you might hear from certain people that evolution isn't true and God created everything exactly how they are now and let me tell you right now, that's complete bullshit', everybody laughed, even me, and I did the classwork but imagine a teacher doing that today, holy shit they'd get fired. That teacher also smoked stogies in the science lab. Christ, that was almost 40 years ago. Calvinistic churches totally confuse me, I really don't get anything that they teach.
If demons can have right theology, Then couldn't a saved believer Lead people away from Christianity?How could you prove otherwise?
@@meghanworkman6449 You need to get on your hands and knees and pray for the Holy Spirit to fill you up.
They woke up some religious trauma in me. Because I too, remember desperately praying for forgiveness as a teen (for small, often not even harmful, things). I remember feeling relief during forgiveness rituals......Until, one day, I didn't feel the relief. And I started to become convinced I was an un-save-able wretch that had been cast aside as "damned".
That led me to some desperately dark places that I'm lucky I didn't fall to. And was it religion that gave me a reason to carry on? No. It was literally the announcement of a video game sequel I had very much been looking forward to. All my religion ever did was chain me with despair and make me feel like a worthless evil being for stuff that wasn't even harmful, let alone "evil".
Realizing that those feelings were irrational, that I hadn't done anything even close to evil, that the religion was full of holes...All these things slightly lifted my burdens and terror, until one day I looked over my shoulder at my catholic church and saw everyone singing with glazed out eyes, and went "YO, I'm in a CULT". From there, the journey out of the faith only brought me more and more peace, and made me seek to do good for the sake of doing good, instead of out of fear.
For the curious, the game announcement that I credit for possibly saving my life was Golden Sun 2:The Lost Age. Imagine how jazzed I am that it's gotten an online release just the other day. Words can hardly express how much that duology means to me.
👍😅
❤️hugs❤
It's definitely a difficult process to come out of the mindset where nearly everything you do need prayers for forgiveness, so congrats.
For me, what broke that pattern was when I said "I'm so sorry God for messing up *again*. I know I've prayed this prayer a thousand times, but this time I'm truly sorry."
Then I realized, I had prayed that prayer a thousand times and yet nothing about my character has changed. Maybe God wasn't actually powerful enough to change my character, and that I would have to change my character myself.
Christianity makes me feel like a cat in the bathroom: I can't help looking at the human in the shower and wondering why anyone would willingly put themselves in such a horrible position.
What a great image. 🐱 🚿 🙀
I get what you're saying but it's a poor analogy.
It's because of the benefits Christianity provides. If someone has a deep need for community, or for feeling incondicionally loved, or feeling that they have inside info that they can call power upon, or that being with the "Big guy" is advantageous... These and many many other reasons can make a person seek out religion. In fact, community is the #1 thing people who have deconverted miss.
They might be willing to let the not so beneficial things slide if the beneficial things are more important, or they might not even realize how it affects them, which is probably the most likely scenario.
They're mad that they're losing money and relevance.
My wife is a geriatric primary care provider. She always complains about having to deal with her patients' "children". It sounds funny because these are people in their fifties and sixties but there's really no other term for them.
“Offspring” is technically available, but somehow sounds even more awkward than “adult children”. Saying “Sons and/or Daughters” is age neutral, but also awkward.
Spawn? Brood? [Patient’s Name]: The Next Generation?
"you are teleported into a world that is so antagonistic to Christianity"
Did someone send Tim Barnett to Saudi Arabia, or what does he mean by that? Surely not his normal area of residence...?
These fundy christians do tend to be a tad melodramatic.
@@jaclo3112 American Christians really like LARPing as martyrs. A pastor at my church once preached a sermon about Christian Concentration Camps.
According to this reasoning, Paul of Tarsus was never a true Pharisee.
I was raised Christian, but I feel the moment I lost my faith was when I mustered up the courage to speak to my pastor arount 10 years old about my home life and how my Ma would strike me routinely. and with his response of "stop being naughty then" I felt my entire life force drain. I had preached the word of God to my friends up till that point, I had a bible in my back backpack. People thought I was weird but I genuinely believed Jesus was my life.
I had way worse experiences than that and it never fazed me 🧐 you don’t see me denying Jesus because of what people say.
Everybody is going to be judged by Christ. Everybody.
@@aheartonfire7191 Do you think the idea that "Everybody will be judged" may have been created because it makes a population complacent and abusable? "They'll get what's coming to them", eternal Paradise etc are tools used to control people. Religion is a tool used to control people.
@@aheartonfire7191 There’s no hate like Christian love.
@@aheartonfire7191 How is that comment compassionate or graceful?
Your comment functions to assert that you endured worse abuse ( though it’s not a contest…and even if it were we haven’t sufficient evidence to pronounce who was more severely harmed).
Then it functions to suggest that even more and far worse abuse awaits individuals after death. Such an assertion assumes that an individual’s self awareness survives the death of the brain that produces self awareness as a function of our neurology.
You have no way to know that or anything else supernatural…your authority to know impossible to know things is equal to mine or anyone else’s.
So That amounts to nothing.
Honestly, What’s wrong with acknowledging that we live until we die?
And What’s wrong with living as well as we may …learning and adapting and contributing and creating and overcoming as well as we may?
A real almighty God may be pleased or not pleased by any human behavior
And can do or not do whatever it prefers anyway …how am I mistaken?
Is God not almighty? Does God not have free will?
Does Your faith tradition offer greater wisdom than the vanity of special pleading
coupled with the creepy weirdness of violent threats?
When salt loses its zing it’s good for nothing but being trampled upon.
What does that mean to you … blame the victim?
Or maybe a little simple goodness is worth a lot so don’t ruin it?
@@aheartonfire7191Pretty sure that comment alone is enough for Christ to proclaim he never knew you. It’s a total violation of the Greatest Commandment. Enjoy those flames!
"Child sacrifice!?!?! No, no, no. My religion is based on the human sacrifice of an ADULT"😅😅😅 Not the flex he thought that was.
but aren't we all "children of god"?
@@phileas007Yes...but without a doubt Jesus was... according to the story.
Thank you for mentioning those of us that were in the faith from an early age but never really felt what we were supposed to feel. I know it’s not the main topic of the video, but I feel seen.
Absolutely!!
I was one such person myself. Always hated church, loathed all I heard about Jesus and God.
It's kinda funny cause I think people like us probably represent the majority of deconverts. It's just that most of the people like us tend to drift away quietly and take little to no interest in the conversation at large about belief. I certainly did that for a long time and I know many others irl in similar shoes.
I admit that I sometimes forget that this is the path many take. For me, my departure from faith was traumatic. It’s easy to forget that so many simply weren’t taken in from the start.
@@dexterbunco4212 It's a weird kind of privilege to be sure. Although the sad thing is that it didn't really get me to deconstruction any faster. It did, on the other hand, result in me picking a lot of fights because I felt like I needed to look for logical or scientific reasons to believe rather than feeling God's presence or whatever seemed to work for everyone else. (Side note: never ask a Baptist if they can prove that the Bible is true without using the Bible. They do NOT like that)
I would imagine there are several reasons why former Christians are vocal about it and don't just "slink away." However, being there for others who are struggling with the same thing, is the most noble reason, and anyone who would criticize that needs some self reflection.
Well said.
It's almost like when you're raised to tell everyone what you believe, but then your beliefs change, that habit of sharing remains.
"I can't judge anybody's heart."
Proceeds to judge everybody's hearts...make it make sense.
I haven’t met a Christian who doesn’t do this… often immediately after saying they can’t judge anybody. Just admit you can’t live up to this impossible standard and be a human. Work through things in a healthy and balanced way instead and be the best and most self-honest person you can be 🤷♂️
Excellent video Paul! If Christians were honest, one can never "really" know if they're saved.
More apostate BS! Now tell us how well you know scripture.😅
@@theol64
How can someone know they're really saved? Explain what you're thinking.
@ahwell5788
Incredible. You all claim to know scripture so well that your assault is made effective. Yet it's ignorance that is made evident.
Of course, you object to every point we make, so even if I give you rock solid reasons how we "know", will you accept it? How do I know you'll consider what I provide for you?
@@theol64
Reasons?
@ahwell5788
Ok, good.
So, there is absolutely NO reason to doubt that Christ lived, spoke and acted. (Sceptics live to create doubt) So those who lived with him and wrote of him spoke and wrote in a UNIQUE PERIOD of time.
We trust historians concerning innumerable events that defy imagination yet regarding Christ, our preference becomes selfish.
2Pet 1 describes a person who lived in intimate acquaintance and understanding of what was set before him. We are "sure" v10.
1John 5. Why or HOW do you deny this?
John 10
Romans 10
Yes, I expect you to read.
Come on, man. What do you want?
How have you determined these things to be UNtrue???
"if combatting ideas you think are toxic or harmful isn't noble, I don't know what is"
Yes! It should always be done with self awareness (something I've seen no shortage of here), but imo this is one of the noblest pursuits.
I bet Alisa and Tim talked to a grand total of zero atheists while preparing to write a book about deconstruction.
And any stories that they did are 100% made up.
Don't they usually meet atheists in planes? Also they may have asked Sean McDowell because he's got experience with acting as an atheist...
I went to church faithfully for years as a child.. My mother never forced me to go. I rode the Purple church bus that would pick us up every Sunday morning and evening and as I became a teenager I would go to Wednesday night service. Whenever they would ask if anyone wanted to receive Jesus in their heart, I wouldn’t go up because at the time, I thought I wasn’t ready yet.. I didn’t feel it in my heart and I wanted to genuinely make an attempt at being saved and not sinning. I also was afraid of the rapture happening and afraid of going to HELL. I moved outta state at 17 and never went to church again. I still struggled with the belief. One day the lightbulb turned on in my head and I began to question everything.. It’s AN INSULT for them to just dismiss what happened to me or anyone when they’ve dealt with the TRAUMA of deconstruction.. FOH
My mum was told (I was 8yo) by the Sunday school that I couldn't come back because I asked to many questions all the time. I asked questions (about the bible) because I wanted answers and assumed I'd get them at church. So I tried to find the answers myself and the more i looked the less and less I believed. I now know why they couldn't answer the questions
I always thought asking to many questions about the faith wasn't a thing. Until I had real questions myself.
I learned real quick to not say or ask anything. Nothing like religion to abuse children.
Tim wants to say his 7 year old wasn't indoctrinated but came to religious conviction all on his own. This shit drives me crasy.
It's fine to ask questions. People will be asking God all sorts of questions in Heaven. So that church was a bad one. I question Science now
Thank you for your work. You've been a huge support for people like me who pull their hairs out trying to communicate their feelings and ideas with people who refuse to listen.
Wow. Greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I am grateful for your calm examination of these kinds if christian attitudes. There is no way I could get through producing a video on this topic without losing my temper repeatedly.
I struggle to watch these sometimes. As nice as it is hearing Paul debunk the statements in a calm, rational manner, it still hurts to hear it said.
Guys guys guys... our religion isn't about child sacrifice, it's about human sacrifice.
See, that's better... right?
Go look up Moloch worship
@@jex-the-notebook-guy1002 what does that have to do with anything?
@@gerrye114 it involves child sacrifice. Christianity is not human sacrifice.
@jex-the-notebook-guy1002 Abraham, Jephtha, and Jesus would all say different.
"Those other guys also sacrifice humans" isn't the argument you think it is. I don't worship Moloc either
@@gerrye114 Abraham didn't sacrifice a human
Christian apologists are obsessed with apostates of other religions.
I technically was "saved" twice. Once when I was a little kid and regularly went to Sunday school and Bible Camp in the summer, after a while all of those activities stopped and my family and I led our lives as normally, and then again as a teenager and early adulthood. Where my step grandparents practically made me emotional and forced me to repeat the sinner's prayer to get saved. This is the time I actually stuck with it for quite a few years. I slowly deconstructed mostly on my own, but also with the help of others.
I never was Catholic so idk what it's like being a "Christian" there. I've heard some awful things though. It's good to be away from corruotion.
I started writing this before you said it, but this isn’t a salvation issue.
It’s a dollars and cents issue.
These folks are desperate to keep their jobs.
Their jobs are safe. Those desperate to hold on to their beliefs will continue to support them. Their income will probably increase because of the "urgency".
How strange this “i am a sinner full of shame and unworthy”. So unhealthy
Right, it could be taken as someone begging their dad not to kill them, even though they know they "deserve it." Ouch.
If I were a Christian and I believed those who left the faith weren't really Christians to begin with, I would wonder how I could know if I were a Christian? How could I know I wasn't one of those people who thought they were a Christian but really weren't. But most of these people you're discussing don't seem very concerned.
You lean on God's promises, that he will never forsake you nor put you to shame. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins you will spend eternity in heaven.
They do the same in politics by calling dissenters RINOs.
Another piece of evidence that maga is a cult. 😅
I'm not perfect, I've made plenty of mistakes. But as a Christian apologist, I try to strive avoiding psychologizing the other side as much as possible. I don't like being psychologized either. I'd rather just stick to the arguments. I agree with this panel that Deconstruction TikTok tends to make some really shallow criticisms that do raise some red flags for me, but Christian TikTok can be equally shallow. As someone who has talked to plenty of people who have doubted or left their faith, I've very rarely ran into instances where I doubted the genuineness of their original profession. If anything doubt can be extremely painful for someone to experience. I also don't blame atheists for creating platforms and communities to debunk Christianity. If you think a belief is harmful to others, it would be wrong to just shut up, even if I'd think that person might be wrong or misguided. But that's the whole debate to be had and this should be encouraged if you're confident in what you think is true. Anyway, IDK if you'll see this, but if you ever wanna have a convo about how Christians and atheists can have better conversations, let me know. This conversation is better when it's less one-sided and include a little more empathy, nuance and understanding.
Do you have a supernatural belief system insulated from evidenced based reasoning?
That’s how I describe faith. Humans are unreasonable, biased, quirky and irrational in many ways and it’s simply unavoidable. I get that…of course.
What I find so frustrating is theists who will insist that they’re “right” about things which are literally lost to history or invisible.
What prevents Christians from letting faith be faith?
You are great
Thanks for doing your best to listen to those you disagree with and have a constructive dialogue. While I am not convinced by your arguments and would say I believe you are wrong about the strength of the evidence for Christianity, I generally really appreciate your approach and tone.
Sean McDowell: "I can't judge anyone's heart".
Also Sean McDowell: "I'm going to judge the heart of _most_ ex-christians".
I believed the ancient stories for 50 years because of my parents and their beliefs. Then I woke up and realized how ridiculous it was. I realized every single living organism regardless of what it was or believed was still dying including myself. Ancient humans wrote a story book that my parents who are both dead now, fell for. I freed myself from the fantasy.
The condescension really had me fuming with these people.
Commenting twice, because I watched this twice...the second time, so I could scream..."You're smashing it Paul !! This is like an intellectual hurricane blowing away the childish irrationality of clinging to a religion"
Peer and parental pressure is soo harmful to achieving cleaner mental health. Thanks for your excellent contribution to better thinking.
I distinctly remember the confrontation that started my deconversion.
I was Mormon and I was trying to get into the Temple. In my interview with the Bishop he asked if I had paid a full tithe. I said I had prayed and Heavenly Father was ok with what I had contributed. He said that's not the right answer. Then suggested that I "go home and fast and pray about it."
It was so demoralizing to hear him give me advice an 8yr old knew. But, because I hadn't come to the realization he wanted, I "obviously" hadn't prayed and fasted. If I had prayed and fasted I would have come to "the correct realization".
We didn't so Santa Claus et al with my daughter, but somehow we ended up doing the tooth fairy. And she definitely had that frantic moment when she lost a "valuable" tooth. Fortunately my wife is a genius, and told her to draw a picture of the tooth, and that the tooth fairy would honor it and pay her for it.
It's a well known fact that the tooth fairy accepts fiat currency as legal tender😂
Its sad how far McDowell has fallen. I still remember when he was the "nice", "honest", "rational" apologist. Now, he's just like all the others, saying the same condescending nonsense with a straight face.
just wait till he comes out as creationist
I've been thinking that often recently. I don't know if he's gotten worse or simply has decided to drop a mask, but it's unfortunate.
I watched Sean’s video when it was released and immediately anticipated a Paulogia response. The panel was disingenuous regarding real people with real concerns and objections. I did not want to deconvert but had to be honest with the world and facts around me. Thanks for the response.
Glad you found your way out of the maze.
I like how Paul, with both polite tone and concise wording, really lays the smack down.
During 40 years as a Christian I was a Sunday school teacher, youth leader, board member, best friends with the pastor and his wife. Pretty much everything but the preacher. I spent years praying for God to reveal himself (why is it a him, does it have a penis?). Nothing. My personal research (instead of just believing what those over me said) showed it all to be built on sand -- something the Bible preaches against. Been an agnostic (don't know if there is a god), then atheist (no god), then agnostic atheist (don't know what's out there in the universe but no god as portrayed on Earth}. I'm back to atheist because what constitutes a god anyways. Anything god-powerful may just be a being with more technology knowledge than us.
Fun fact: The last part can be described as igtheism which can be summarized as "We have no clear concept of anything labeled 'God'"
I'm going get you more confused with a whole new way of thinking about the titles. I call myself an 'Identifier.' I can identify what is a human created Story God Supernatural Superhero from a Nature's God. Jesus of Christianity does not deserve the promotion from Supernatural Superhero to Nature's God. Jesus does not know much of anything about Nature.
A Nature's God would have all sorts of knowledge about Nature, like Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics, etc.. A Nature's God who was able to turn a 3 day old stinky body to new again would know a lot about skin, blood, eyes, muscles, bones, lungs, etc.. Did Jesus tell us any First Aid we humans would benefit from? Anything about CPR? Anything to give humans a boost to build Universities to study Nature to build research hospitals and just hospitals? A Nature's God would know about inventions like printing presses so people would have books to read. And eyeglasses for many people so they could read.
So Jesus just walked around Judea/Israel and saw all the people who couldn't read and the lack of books to read and didn't think that was odd or should be changed? Huh?
Look up where Jesus and Disciples did not have to wash hands before meals. The reason given is a Religious reason, but it still shows Jesus of Christianity to be an ignorant human.
Christians want to debate against an Atheist. The real debate should be against Story Magic and Story Christianity. A real God that wants to help humans would give humans knowledge of Nature.
If you love other people and love Jesus, that is the manifestation of Jesus, it’s Jesus shining through you and you feel great joy, that’s how Jesus manifests Himself towards us, there’s a spirit of great joy of what Jesus has done on the cross. You were searching in the wrong place for 40 years, that’s honestly amazing. It was right in front of your eyes and you didn’t even see it. I’m only 5 years of being a Christian and I recognized immediately
@@aheartonfire7191 Yep, the old "no true christian". Thanks for sharing an example of how not even christians know how to recognize jesus.
@@aheartonfire7191 if I may suggest; consider that the entire 40 years of their Christian life, they were as convicted & convinced of the truth of Christianity and their relationship with Jesus as you are a mere 5 years in. Your confidence & feelings of certainty were theirs for 40 years; who knows where you'll be in another 35?
I have a similar story as Matt dillahunty (felt inspired to become a preacher) and it was that deep study that started a deconversion. Hearing Christians say people like me were never true Christians are full of shit and make them represent their faith poorly.
The "they were never really believers" is a reframing that puts the fault on the person being appealed to by an idea instead of the fault being with the idea. It prevents anyone within the idea from any introspection or examination.
If someone assumes from the offset that you're dishonest (ie saying you were never truly christian) it's probably because they're projecting their own dishonesty.
Their arguments aren’t designed to re-convert de-converters or reassure believers. It’s about shaming doubters so they hide their doubts.
Nailed it.
This is one of the finest videos that Paulogia has done. He is at his sharpest here. He zeroes in on the condescending arrogance that these people have merely by declaring themselves to be "sinners" who don't have to answer to their sins because they consider themselves the elite. I particularly noticed when Sean McDowell said "I knew you followed that one, Tim" when Barnett mentioned the deconstruction site of an attractive young woman --- and barely concealed his "nudge nudge wink wink." Their conversation could just as easily have been that of bunch of titled aristocrats sniggering at the peasants for wearing rags, while making sly allusions to their own privileged perks.
I really love how they say, "These people were not truly Christians." Then say, "I can't judge anyone else."
Yeah, you can't judge anyone else, just most of them.
Oh hey, I'm glad I am not the only one that noticed the comparison to aristocracy. It's like there's a sense of "here's what it means to be prim and proper and you cannot change that, or you were never one of us", all so that they can maintain this idea that behaving this way is flawless and that anyone that couldn't do it just couldn't take it.
It also acts as a barrier against unbelief. Because if the disbelievers actually have valid reasons for leaving a belief or behavior, that puts into question the value of said belief, and that creates doubt.
EDIT: I should mention this CAN HELP to act as a barrier against unbelief. Not that Christians actually subscribe to this.
I fully agree, I usually wait to like a video until I finish it but I was already clicking about 25% thru this vid bc Paul was just banging out amazing points left and right!
Believe to the end and you will be rewarded in heaven
@@samuelcalderwood1379
Please show that religious belief does anything, other than amping up the believer (not unlike a motivational speaker). Also, show that a heaven exists while you're at it. Then we will have a discussion going.
I can wait. I'm an atheist, so I'm used to it at this point.
It is interesting to me how much time I have to spend trying to convince people that I was a devout Christian. Many of these people knew me as a Christian.
I'm a secular, cultural Christian. "Agnostic" is probably a better fitting title.
If we keep pushing the idea of hell after death, all while continuing to promote an ideology that makes people's lives worse, then why even have a church? We should strive to help our communities, not suffocate them.
Thank you again, Paul, for this response and everything else you do!
Thank you for giving a little bit of visibility that modern American Evangelical Fundamentalism has been very successfully hiding. Christianity is much bigger than the common media portrayals, and I get a little frustrated sometimes at the way cultural Christians can be ignored.
Be Well, Have Fun, Start Revolutions.
Just learned about "identity foreclosure." Explains a LOT ABOUT religion's bony grasp around Soooo many people's throats.
Thank you for posting this. I never heard of identity foreclosure before, so I just googled it. Always nice to learn new things. Again, thanks.
Understanding the many manipulative tactics regularly employed by the religious tremendously helps with deconstruction. The more we are aware of, the better. It also gives us the opportunity to expose them to right thinking processes.
It’s almost analogous to saying “people who quit drugs weren’t really drug addicts”
That twilight description was too good. I had to ask my wife what I was describing using your description. 😂
Pride is supposed to be a sin, but the self righteousness of so many Christians is really sad. “Only I know the correct way” they say. I have yet to find a church/denomination/sect that ever says “That group over there is much more of the true faith than us.” Almost impossible by definition. That’s why there is so much fragmentation into tens of thousands of sects.
That doesn’t discredit anything. Jesus is still the way the truth and the life.
@@aheartonfire7191what is the purpose of this reply dude?
One thing that true Christians always believe is “I know I’m right by God”😂.
It does discredit them.
Proverbs 16:5 “The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.”
@@DigitalHaydsit’s vanity. Likely to stoke his own ego after being converted by zealots. New exciting people in his life have convinced him to spread the word, so here he is.
I hope he’ll wake up to the truth some day. Christ is a hopeful fairytale, no matter how much he’d like it to be true.
17:05 This is so true: You can’t understand what it’s like until after you’re out of it. You can never truly cruel, ignorant, inhumane saying “you were never a Christian” is to someone who was a devout believer for decades.
I have listened to a lot of these takedowns since I deconverted from trad Catholicism largely in isolation, but goddamn, you absolutely dismantled and exposed this lot just by accurately using their own authoritative source documents. Bravo.
You should have joined the moderate Catholic Christians.they are a lot easier to be around.sorry you had to go through all that trouble.I know what it's like to be around a fundamentalist group. I used to be a Jehovah's witness.
"Do you have any idea how condescending it is to insist you know my thoughts better than I know my thoughts?" 👏👏👏
On the spot! Thanks Paulogia for such a great content!
I also get the "you were never a christian" despite of so many people I bring to church, being a musician and youth leader... but yeah, they can read minds.
Doing churchy stuff doesn't make you a Christian, trust in Jesus blood and righteousness makes you a Christian
I actually LOL'd when Alisa Childers brought up the dangers of echo chambers and their ability to reinforce untrue beliefs. 😂 That is literally how Christianity functions
The irony of mentioning 'echo chambers' has obviously escaped those three.
I'll raise my hand and say that I was not really "in the faith", but then, I didn't use the word "deconstruction" to describe my journey away from it. It seems to me that people who call their journey a "deconstruction" typically *were* deep in the faith, hence the feeling that they've torn down something large, that they've "deconstructed".
Good point. I was in christianity for most of my life. I may not have "felt all the feelings" (but Christians will tell you not to rely on feelings anyway), but deconstruction took time, and despite having mostly intellectually deconstructed, I still struggle with the 'feeling' of it being true. If you're actually a believer, it can really take awhile to fully come out of it.
Well, tithes from unsaved followers spend just as well as tithes from saved followers.
Ultimately, I think they’re talking about former Christians like me. I had religious experiences very few times in my life, I read the Bible very little, and church services felt less like learning and more like lectures about unethical people and extraordinary events. I went to Vacation Bible Schools in the summer, a couple church camps, attended church on 99% of Sundays and was left in my corner for youth groups on Wednesdays.
Yet, I was always confused why I didn’t vibe in these scenarios like everyone else I was around. I felt far more comfortable with people my age doing literally anything else, and I felt really guilty for it. I genuinely didn’t understand other people’s confidence that they were living Christianity the way they were supposed to. There were so many different interpretations, different excuses, different perspectives on the same things and frankly, I didn’t trust myself to be able to do it right. If I didn’t, I was going to hell.
In a way, I wasn’t truly Christian. I didn’t know how to be. You could stick me in a religious environment for weeks at a time but it never made as much sense or inspired as much wonder as science did. I felt if I went deeper into the Bible and start really digging into my beliefs, I’d find I was just repeating what I heard, not what I truly believed because I sought out the truth. I was afraid I’d confuse the truth and be damned for it.
Over time, I slowly realized I didn’t understand it because it never really made sense. Religion is sociological, a popularity contest more than the seeking of truth. There’s a personality mold and everyone is trying fit within it, it changes your framework for interpretation, and it just didn’t make sense to my brain. Eventually I settled on the fact that I can’t help it, and I don’t think God would punish me for it as long as I try to be a good person. I could still call myself Christian that way and not become an outcast and may keep me out of hell.
But in a way, people like these 3 were right about me. And eventually, I just had to come to grips with the fact I don’t believe it, it was just more important I fit in and took what lessons I wanted to from the doctrine when it could serve to make me feel better.
I wonder what percentage of Church attenders are basically going along for others.
For example the wife that goes for her husband…the parents that go for the children…the children that go for the mom.
Then there’s those who go along for themselves (somewhat like yourself) not really interested or not getting it but afraid not to go along …I can relate to that myself.
Churches are aware that for each honest deconstructing individual there are many poorly constructed with shallow commitment. They are seeking techniques to deepen the commitment of the true believers to take up the slack.
I think if Paul thought that this conversation was meant to distinguish your experiences from Paul’s very different experiences, he would have no objection. Ultimately, the video being responded to wasn’t about getting to know you and meet you where you are, it’s about dismissing the validity of deconversion stories as broadly as possible. As Paul was saying, if their perspective was consistent, it wouldn’t make any difference to them if you were a non-believer going to church on Sunday or a non-believer going to the park on Sunday.
@@joelpartee594 I did recognize that, these 3 were generalizing non-believers and may be subtly projecting their underlying doubt onto people like me. I think my experience is probably quite common. I did not think Paul was overlooking this but rather, as you said, he’s juxtaposing his personal experience on others like him to prove here guys are generalizing.
It is interesting their generalizations have some layer of relatability. That’s why I wonder if they could be projecting their underlying doubt, maybe my life experience is representative of many people’s source of belief, as @cipherklosenuf9242 postulates
I found Tim's choice of words rather odd in his echoing of Sean's assertion that the (likely fictional) former Christians he's talked to don't seem to remember "getting into" the faith. Why is the realization that you're a broken sinner, flawed in every way and unworthy of any mercy or redemption a "chest beating" moment? The only contexts I know for the gesture of thumping one's chest are asserting dominance or demanding attention. The act is a literal demonstration of beating one's own drum.
As an atheist and an apostate versus Christianity, I clearly remember when I realized I was a sinner. Similar to Paul's recollection, I felt extreme grief to the point of being sick. It wasn't a moment of triumph that I enjoy relating. From then on I became terrified that I was still beyond grace no matter how hard I prayed or how firmly I entrenched myself in my beliefs.
Christians who might view my story could easily turn my lived experience against me by suggesting that my anxiety was proof that I was still in bondage to sin. As it happens, I was in bondage to an anxiety disorder that God didn't see fit to send me any relief against until I finally had access to the right medication. The anti-intellectual worldview my family largely held attributed defects of the mind to spiritual threats, so my caretakers denied me access to necessary secular care as my disorder continued to dominate my early life.
If you want to tell me I was never really "in the faith," go ahead. The complex web of biological subsystems that determine our personalities might have primed me for apostasy from conception. For all I know, the same psychological stew could have, in another lifetime, led me to be a former Muslim, former Hindu, or former devotee of Kim Il Sung. The most important consequence for renouncing my faith is that I now identify as an "other" to my former in-group. The panel Paul has featured here is also clearly more upset about a perceived betrayal of their feelings than any practical result.
Thank you so much for answering to these hypocrites.... You are one of my favorites because of the smart and respectful way you answer them leaving them dumber than they already are...
LOVE the movie descriptions. Will keep them in mind and think of own ways to expand the collection 😂
Would leave several more likes, if it would be techkically possible
thank you
Paul I was in the middle of watching a paulogia video, cmon man
Ha. Sorry
I am laughing so hard. Thank you. This video made this year for me already. I never looked at their attitude this way. The greatest threat is them. The sheer hypocrisy. "Adopting a consistent label"....perfect.
The cynic in you is brilliant!
I appreciate how well this puts to words the conflict believers seem to have who are both anti-deconstruction and also hold that a true believer wouldn't stop believing as a result of a deconstruction. If deconstruction truly can only reveal non-believers, then believers should be the ones most encouraging it. Opposing or fearing it only makes sense if you both do not care for the lost and value making the most money above the souls of others, since the results of some one leaving after deconstruction is just that you, the believer, finally realize the one who left was already some one who needed to be saved before the deconstruction, they are no worse off but arguably better off because now people like you can focus on reaching them (and not put them in positions in leadership), and the arguably one true negative to the church is that they are now considerably less likely to tithe.
Honestly, even if I still believed, I feel like I'd look at those who say they believe but oppose deconstruction as the very same false prophets, ones who speak in his name but some day Jesus will affirm did not know him, they accuse all who fall from the faith from being. As some one who did realize christianity was far more likely false the true after years of deconstruction, however, I now find it more likely that its just there is no such thing as a holy spirit to guide them, so to have such a seemingly inconsistent view is to be expected, as all humans suffer from such views. I can never truly put to words the unexpected weight of cognitive dissonance that lifted from me when I finally acknowledged I was wrong about christianity being true, so many views I had that were internally in conflict that I simply could not see when I believed.
On final note, its the no-true-scotsman views like those that group shared which are why I try to only refer to myself as a former believer, not a former christian. If you want to claim I was never a "christian" because your definition of christian includes "and can not stop believing", so be it, I won't dispute definitions. What I will dispute is if I ever believed the bible was true and tried to follow it, since I absolutely did that for 30+ years.
FWIW, I don't think you should let them "no true Scottsman" you out of calling yourself a former Christian. You believed it, you lived it; you were one.
Just wanted to say thanks for uploading on your podcast again! I really appreciate it!
This was a particularly brilliant analysis this week, @Paulogia! Thanks!
"How dare some woman claim that Christianity is based on child sacrifice, when every good Christian knows it's based on adult sacrifice!"
Not only is this not any kind of flex for the apologists, it represents an abject failure on their side of making their point.
Also, that bar they set for what constitutes real Christianity, excludes large numbers of devout believers, who sincerely study their religion.
This video was not just condescending to atheists, but also to many Christians that disagree with them.
I suspect they are OK with that.
@@Paulogia I too suspect they are.
But it brings to mind a metaphor of circling the wagons. Bui there is a marked shortage of wagons, so they cheerfully boot out a bunch of people they don't like. Then being unconcerned that the "others" are getting hit by friendly fire.
I mean, it's kind of the tiniest flex. Like a little twitch. Or maybe a tick, LOL.
I've had many versions of Romans 1:20 thrown at me and it goes in one ear and out the other.
My mother claims I asked Jesus into my heart at age 2. I grew up in a small-town in Alaska, grew up in the "Palin's church," indoctrinated with home school and Kent Hovind seminars. I spent my entire life deconstructing.
Brilliant job with this one, Paul. Thank you.
This will change the way I discuss my former beliefs. When challenged on whether I was a believer, I pointed to my life work. If one knows Jesus' followers by their fruit, I had the fruit. But it's easy for a believer to dismiss this as being either insufficient or insincere. Interesting point that if I never understood, as is usually claimed, then I didn't deconvert. If I wasn't a believer, why do they care? What difference does it make if I was or wasn't?
7:42 really nailing it on the head. The financial grift and political operations of Christianity supersede any theological or cultural concerns.
Great video, Paul!
One of your most important videos. Thank you for putting this together!
Tim Barnett is a cartoon character. It is simply impossible to take him seriously.
Thanks!
Welcome!
Home run, Paul. Excellent analysis. Thank you. 💯
Oh, that’s beautiful! I have never seen this logical inconsistency, thanks!!