Thank you for this video! I took a major deep breath as I listened. I have tried, for a number of years to understand or make sense of PVT through, books, workshops, and YT videos and I just could not wrap my head around it.
Me too. When I studied my Masters in counseling psychology I had some weird lessons and this one was one of them, and unfortunately I could not understand this and therefore apply with my clients. Thank you so much for this video! I will stop blaming myself for being too dumb for this theory. I will stop seeking to understand and will save my time for something that actually is real. God bless you!
Scanning for danger and putting out energy in terms of safety and danger is absolutely something that we do as human beings! Have you ever walked into an AA meeting or an NA meeting? Have you ever lived down the street or lived in the madness or really paid attention to how your body physiologically reacts when an abuser walks into your home or somebody comes up behind you when you get the heebie-jeebies? Lady, you are so wrong. It’s incredibly frustrating! All of our senses are always scanning for safety or danger. Especially with people who have been traumatized it’s an autonomic, nervous systems, nightmare! It takes years to decompress and re-integrate the sense of neurochemical Balance to wear. It’s healthier for the individual so that they can heal.
@susanarias6965 - While that may be your subjective experience, it's not reflective of brain and nervous system function. This video is about the current science of brain and nervous system function, not affective realism, which is what you're describing. Just because you THINK that's what is going on doesn't mean that's what IS going on. For instance, it seems like the sun rises and sets, but scientifically, that's not what's happening at all. It's the same thing here. And that matters, because if you don't know how your brain really works, and you believe nonsense like PV and triune brain,. you will forever be the victim you once were. Never really progressing, never really living with mental and emotional ease. But hey, you do you.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa so I think there is something to be said about both perspectives here. I understand your main point is that it PV theory is not or may not be accurate in its physiological explanation. I do think the fundamental concept of feeling safe and our autonomous nervous system response to certain environmental cues is of real value, not as something to hide behind or resign ourselves but to allow us some space from which to understand our moment to moment experience. Of course, as you say these general principles exist in many places. I do think you go too far in portraying Porges as someone who just wants to sell books and courses. I mean not everyone that is wrong necessarily has that motive, plus it’s really irrelevant (unless there is demonstrable malice) and detracts from your main point and how you present yourself.
@madmaxmedia - I appreciate your thoughtful comment. That said, though it is somewhat of a side point to this video, the issue that he sells programs and community is extremely relevant to the point I make in another video, which is that using outdated and pseudoscientific ideas to sell those things is no bueno as far as I'm concerned. We all know that "science" is what sells these days, and having been duped into spending time learning this pseudoscience myself, I have an axe to grind about their practice of selling programs that teach pseudo/outdated science to therapists as "cutting edge". Unwittingly, therapists learn and repeat this "scientific" stuff to sell their own services, guide their practice, and educate patients, and patients suffer in the long run. I'm not ok with that. Hence, some folks see what they infer to be me going too hard on him, or diverting to irrelevant side issues.. But that's the risk I'm willing to take to speak truth about Porges and the currently powerful affiliate marketing group who sells this junk. As I repeatedly say, it's not the methods I have a problem with, it's the outdated and pseudo science they spout. Which is LITERALLY their unique selling proposition (USP), (as they say in marketing)...because the methods have been around *for over a century.* p.s. I infer no malice in him wanting to sell. I have no problem with selling. Sales is everything if you want more than what a W2 job can get you in life. I'm just calling out the sales pitch and its poor foundation.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa that’s a fair point, thanks for the considerate response. I do agree with most all of what you say here. And I appreciate the video as well.
I love this, thank you. Without any coaching, I developed a practice that gave me 30 minutes of pain-free, temperature free time away from my un fixable spine damage. After months of calmly shocking into freezing water myself into that state, I spent 30 minutes at least, in a trance outside I came back dry entering my home with ice on my feet. Anyway, I'm interested in the brain infarct with blood product I received from this. Fear, guilt, shame, pride, etc don't seem to express. Enduring pain without suffering in it. That 30 minutes, the prayer offered before, the communication, what I've seen and how I've changed? I am curious about where the infarct occurred, or if I just got lucky blessing with this new lucidly?
I don’t think you’ve really understood his work. Sorry, but I find this a very surface and poor interpretation of Polyvagal Theory.its easy to Dis what you don’t understand. But not very “scientific “.
Truth be told, the audience would be better served by a conversation between Porges and Lisa Feldman Barrett. Not being the researcher, I'm not the best candidate. Side note: unless I've miscalculated, there is nothing I'm saying here scientifically that Lisa Feldman Barrett would disagree with, so if someone could arrange that discussion, I'd be all ears, just to make sure. 🤙
50 years from now, we'll come back to this thread and find out none of us were right. We still have so much more to learn. But I do like the historical contributions of the Reichian traditions.
You make a good point of questioning the simplistic model of polyvagal theory, but rather than disproving anything as false, it strikes me as if your video results in giving an alternative explanation of the same (does it matter much if the danger to which the brain reacts is objectively real or just a prediction which the brain constructs? What actually changes?) also, Lisa Feldman's theory is just that: another scientific hypothesis, which you state somehow as being the right explanation for everything the brain does (as if the brain were a unfiied system, not composed of a lot of functionally distinct components)
@psicojorge 1. It makes a huge difference if the alleged danger is a figment of your imagination or real. Figments of people's imaginations are the stuff of psychosis and the road to falling for someone's psychopathy. 2. It isn't Lisa Feldman Barrett's theory of brain function. It's her theory of emotion built on the currently undisputed understanding of predictive brain function. Predictive brain function has completely superceded the locationist ideas of 20th-century brain science by every cutting edge cognitive researcher.
@@MrPink1750 TRE, or Tension/“Trauma” Releasing Exercises are a protocol that David Bercelli created to work with large numbers of people in communities that don’t do “talk therapy.” Basically, he takes people through a series of movements designed to tire out the muscles around the psoas and then helps them generate involuntary “vibrations” in the psoas that he has some fancy name for. Basically, the process gets the parasympathetic or, rest/digest/restore side of the autonomic nervous system going and calms people down. This is helpful for people who’ve gotten stuck in high arousal, just like every other exercise or protocol that turns up parasympathetic “tone,” as they say. Bercelli specifically designed it for communities that don’t do “therapy” the way we do it in the west, and as such it is not a special kind of “therapy.” It’s a protocol to calm the nervous system. It works. It’s great. And, to repeat myself, it’s not therapy. Bercelli was trained in bioenergetic analysis by Alexander Lowen and he learned almost the exact exercise during that training, because the lifted hips and the butterflied legs and the vibrations are all things that Lowen taught in his seminars. They are not therapy. They are bioenergetic exercises-which are not therapy. They are exercises designed to help bring awareness to the body and its energetic processes, allow people to learn to express their feelings, and to get good at “self possession” as Lowen called it. This is now called “self regulation” by most of therapyland. In sum: I think it’s good exercise, and I think Bercelli did a good thing by innovating on this particular bioenergetic exercise in order bring it to large numbers of people who don’t do “therapy” but who need to reset, so to speak, after going through a large scale trauma or overwhelming experience together.
@persvrij 1. A trauma is an overwhelming experience that you can't digest. 2. This is not a therapy, it's an exercise. 3. This exercise is a way to decrease arousal in the nervous system, nothing more. That shift in arousal state can decrease PTSD symptoms, if not "resolve" "trauma." That's why I always personally refer to it as "tension" releasing exercise, not "trauma" releasing. Because, yes, "trauma therapy" is a bullshit term. Therapy is therapy, and it's always been for "trauma" (bullshit term) reduction.
@gaylemcgregor4353 - only if they live in constant uncertainty, which can be generated by bad beliefs /an outdated model of self-in-world, or externally, by literally uncertain life circumstances. It gets pathological and enduring when people with an outdated model search for "evidence " (internal or external) for their bad or outdated belief that everyone else ignores (either becauset hey have updated their model or they don't have the same past experiences). Bottom line, unless one is living in literal uncertainty, a constant arousal state is generated by bad beliefs in the generative model. Please see Andy Clark's book The Experience Machine for deeper understanding. You'll find a link in the description to that book.
And your credentials are????? "A passionate person who sees that lies told by therapist educators are damaging the mental health of countless people." Where did you get that degree? Google Online University? Most therapists have credentials like LCP, or LCSW, or LMHC, or Ph.D. You have a RUclips channel with 1k very vulnerable subscribers. You might want to be careful about how you present yourself to the public before someone refers you to a licensing board. Buyer beware.
@inthehouse1960 - LMHC, Masters degree in Counseling Psychology from Columbia University (The Ivy League one, maybe you've heard of it). Twenty five years of clinical experience. Ten year personal psychoanalysis, four year Bioenergetic Analysis training. Over 200 hours of CEUs a year. Continuous personal self reflection practice. Any other questions?
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa love it - boom. We need people like you in the world sense-making and talking back to accusatory nonsense. Totally on your side.
Edit: Actually, she's got it right: the dorsal vagus is parasympathetic (so is the ventral vagus). But PVT is wrong in presuming that the dorsal vagus is responsible for bradycardia, or a sudden drop in heart rate. It's not. If anything, it's the ventral vagus, which is the opposite.
Thanks Leah, this video is a big improvement on your previous one on polyvagal theory, and I appreciate your references to research both in the video and especially also the links in the description, noting the article by Paul Grossman as a key claimant of the debunking research. Appreciated your responding to my feedback on the previous episode too. Well done.
@SoZen08 - Porges' response paper does nothing to address the problem of the fact that the brain is predictive, not reactive, which is the true undoing of his entire idea...aside from the fact that his response is simply restatements of the same falsehoods about the evolutionary biology of the vagus, rsa, and hrv that he started with. His "science" is sham. The idea, nothing but Dogma. No therapist needs his pseudoscience to support their methods. Relationship being primary for humans and lower heart rate being the substrate for calmness are not ideas that need his fantasies of a brain based "social engagement system" or "neuroception" to be true.
Hi Leah, I was on a call today with Stephen Porges. I was considering the Poly Vagal Institute cert to add credibility to my community organisation of therapists. I was leaning towards the trauma trap a couple of years ago and realised it was becoming a strong word with physical implications, so I dropped it from my therapy speak where possible. Are you familiar with Stephen's work around the SSP? Do you have any thoughts or cross-references?
I'm familiar enough with it to categorize it as a gimmick. There are many exercies and protocols to downregulate the nervous sytem. If you want to throw your wagon behind that horse, you'll probably get somewhere, but nowhere special. As for training, your money is better spent getting consultaion on predicive processing and its application in the mental health space. I don't have any courses up and running yet, but I do individual and group consultation. That is not a sales pitch even though it sounds like one. I encourage you to find anyone who can teach it to you and your people. The science PV is based on is dead, falsified and superceded by newer data; therefore, PV "science" ideas are also dead. They're zombie. It's best to learn the 21st century science of cognition and emotion. Hope that helps. p.s. This does not mean that connection with a caring person isn't helpful, it doesn't mean that calming the nervous system is not helpful, it doesn't even mean the protocols and exercises they teach are not helpful. It means that the "science" they're selling your their products with is GARBAGE, and this is not a controversial statement in top notch cognitive neuroscience circles. That should tell you something.
@missl6631 - There is nothing in this video that says they aren't physiological. They aren't innate. Big difference. The book How Emotions Are Made will explain. In fact, deeper into the point, there isn't a thought in your head, or any other experience for that matter, that isn't accompanied by and infused with the feeling state of your body. This is what mind-body unity is.
However, even though I think the theory of constructed emotion, and predictive processing both have solid evidence behind them, I wouldn't suggest anyone read current pop science books to get informed. Buy real text books! Entry-level college textbooks distill what has passed muster in the scientific world for a while. That's still not 100% guaranteed to be true, but more likely to be than any recent findings.
Leah - Thank you for sharing your take on PVT. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (Shakespeare) This opinion from a biologist, engineer, and IFS-skilled trauma coach who is familiar with, and who acknowledges the value and importance of, the predictive (allostatic) model of brain function. I'm not disputing your analysis and conclusion; I'm questioning the need for such intensity and certainty in a context where curiosity is of paramount importance. Peace be with you... "Tomorrow's relational mastery (and mystery) begins with mental calm and equanimity today."
Appreciate the comment, Rick. What's your question exactly? Because based on the rest of the sentence (after the assertion of my intensity and certainty) it seems you must be questioning whether I can assume a posture of curiosity. Is that correct? Do you think that I assume a stance of intensity and certainty in my consulting room just because I do it in this context? And as for the intensity and certainity, do you think a milquetoast presentation would make more impact?
In science theories that come to be widely accepted weren’t necessarily so in their beginning. It’s just that those who continued to denounce it eventually died off.
Pure opinion. You give no basis for your constant statement of wrong. I won’t get into your tone of voice except to say that I scanned for danger and turned off your video.
@sarahhopkinsluvscats - my "opinion" is based on the up-to-date, undisputed scientific research in the extensive bibliography in the description. Thanks for the comment, the algorithm loves it.
@@bajajaja- I'm punching up, so it's impossible for this to be condescention. But I appreciate the assumption that I'm at the same level as the old-timer therapy-training-affiliate marketing group who promotes this garbage.
Thank you for this. It is so refreshing to hear some solid, no-nonsense explanations of things cerebral. Everything you say makes total sense. it is frightening what some people are passing off as science to us lay people these days. You are completely credible, especially by admitting your own fallibility. Thanks again. Regards, Bob McGowan. (Not the Chair Circle!)
Good video. You'll probably get a lot more views if you keep the title simple and also title it: "What's wrong with polyvagal theory" or "Why polyvagal theory is pseudoscience" or something.
Is this about porges incorrect explanation about physiology and anatomy rather than there being no poly vagal nerve theory . His explanation of the theory is incorrect . Because as far asi am aware most science is theoretical . I cant say i ever bothered with poly vagal theory to begin with , neuro science and an understanding of brain function seems a better idea . Sounds like he has used semi plausible statements without really understanding how the brain works .
@maxchill1 - Maybe check out Karl Friston. The world's most cited scientist, a neuroscientist, who agrees with what I'm saying, which I learned from him. (And other top .01% cited neuroscientists)
Thanks for making this video, and for having the courage to rethink your own convictions!!
Thank you for this video! I took a major deep breath as I listened.
I have tried, for a number of years to understand or make sense of PVT through, books, workshops, and YT videos and I just could not wrap my head around it.
Me too. When I studied my Masters in counseling psychology I had some weird lessons and this one was one of them, and unfortunately I could not understand this and therefore apply with my clients. Thank you so much for this video! I will stop blaming myself for being too dumb for this theory. I will stop seeking to understand and will save my time for something that actually is real. God bless you!
Scanning for danger and putting out energy in terms of safety and danger is absolutely something that we do as human beings! Have you ever walked into an AA meeting or an NA meeting? Have you ever lived down the street or lived in the madness or really paid attention to how your body physiologically reacts when an abuser walks into your home or somebody comes up behind you when you get the heebie-jeebies? Lady, you are so wrong. It’s incredibly frustrating! All of our senses are always scanning for safety or danger. Especially with people who have been traumatized it’s an autonomic, nervous systems, nightmare! It takes years to decompress and re-integrate the sense of neurochemical Balance to wear. It’s healthier for the individual so that they can heal.
@susanarias6965 - While that may be your subjective experience, it's not reflective of brain and nervous system function.
This video is about the current science of brain and nervous system function, not affective realism, which is what you're describing. Just because you THINK that's what is going on doesn't mean that's what IS going on. For instance, it seems like the sun rises and sets, but scientifically, that's not what's happening at all. It's the same thing here. And that matters, because if you don't know how your brain really works, and you believe nonsense like PV and triune brain,. you will forever be the victim you once were. Never really progressing, never really living with mental and emotional ease. But hey, you do you.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa so I think there is something to be said about both perspectives here. I understand your main point is that it PV theory is not or may not be accurate in its physiological explanation. I do think the fundamental concept of feeling safe and our autonomous nervous system response to certain environmental cues is of real value, not as something to hide behind or resign ourselves but to allow us some space from which to understand our moment to moment experience. Of course, as you say these general principles exist in many places.
I do think you go too far in portraying Porges as someone who just wants to sell books and courses. I mean not everyone that is wrong necessarily has that motive, plus it’s really irrelevant (unless there is demonstrable malice) and detracts from your main point and how you present yourself.
@madmaxmedia - I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
That said, though it is somewhat of a side point to this video, the issue that he sells programs and community is extremely relevant to the point I make in another video, which is that using outdated and pseudoscientific ideas to sell those things is no bueno as far as I'm concerned.
We all know that "science" is what sells these days, and having been duped into spending time learning this pseudoscience myself, I have an axe to grind about their practice of selling programs that teach pseudo/outdated science to therapists as "cutting edge". Unwittingly, therapists learn and repeat this "scientific" stuff to sell their own services, guide their practice, and educate patients, and patients suffer in the long run. I'm not ok with that.
Hence, some folks see what they infer to be me going too hard on him, or diverting to irrelevant side issues.. But that's the risk I'm willing to take to speak truth about Porges and the currently powerful affiliate marketing group who sells this junk.
As I repeatedly say, it's not the methods I have a problem with, it's the outdated and pseudo science they spout. Which is LITERALLY their unique selling proposition (USP), (as they say in marketing)...because the methods have been around *for over a century.*
p.s. I infer no malice in him wanting to sell. I have no problem with selling. Sales is everything if you want more than what a W2 job can get you in life. I'm just calling out the sales pitch and its poor foundation.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa that’s a fair point, thanks for the considerate response. I do agree with most all of what you say here. And I appreciate the video as well.
I love this, thank you.
Without any coaching, I developed a practice that gave me 30 minutes of pain-free, temperature free time away from my un fixable spine damage.
After months of calmly shocking into freezing water myself into that state, I spent 30 minutes at least, in a trance outside I came back dry entering my home with ice on my feet.
Anyway, I'm interested in the brain infarct with blood product I received from this.
Fear, guilt, shame, pride, etc don't seem to express.
Enduring pain without suffering in it.
That 30 minutes, the prayer offered before, the communication, what I've seen and how I've changed?
I am curious about where the infarct occurred, or if I just got lucky blessing with this new lucidly?
I don’t think you’ve really understood his work. Sorry, but I find this a very surface and poor interpretation of Polyvagal Theory.its easy to Dis what you don’t understand. But not very “scientific “.
@@moirahyde750 - The citations are all in the description. PV is garbage non-science.
Thank you for clarifying some important points.
it's not what you're saying here. for me, it's how and the delivery. have you and the doc, ever had a conversation together that we can all watch?
Truth be told, the audience would be better served by a conversation between Porges and Lisa Feldman Barrett. Not being the researcher, I'm not the best candidate.
Side note: unless I've miscalculated, there is nothing I'm saying here scientifically that Lisa Feldman Barrett would disagree with, so if someone could arrange that discussion, I'd be all ears, just to make sure. 🤙
50 years from now, we'll come back to this thread and find out none of us were right. We still have so much more to learn. But I do like the historical contributions of the Reichian traditions.
You make a good point of questioning the simplistic model of polyvagal theory, but rather than disproving anything as false, it strikes me as if your video results in giving an alternative explanation of the same (does it matter much if the danger to which the brain reacts is objectively real or just a prediction which the brain constructs? What actually changes?) also, Lisa Feldman's theory is just that: another scientific hypothesis, which you state somehow as being the right explanation for everything the brain does (as if the brain were a unfiied system, not composed of a lot of functionally distinct components)
@psicojorge 1. It makes a huge difference if the alleged danger is a figment of your imagination or real. Figments of people's imaginations are the stuff of psychosis and the road to falling for someone's psychopathy. 2. It isn't Lisa Feldman Barrett's theory of brain function. It's her theory of emotion built on the currently undisputed understanding of predictive brain function. Predictive brain function has completely superceded the locationist ideas of 20th-century brain science by every cutting edge cognitive researcher.
Hey I would love your opinion or insights on TRE? As in Trauma Release Exercises?
@@MrPink1750 TRE, or Tension/“Trauma” Releasing Exercises are a protocol that David Bercelli created to work with large numbers of people in communities that don’t do “talk therapy.” Basically, he takes people through a series of movements designed to tire out the muscles around the psoas and then helps them generate involuntary “vibrations” in the psoas that he has some fancy name for. Basically, the process gets the parasympathetic or, rest/digest/restore side of the autonomic nervous system going and calms people down. This is helpful for people who’ve gotten stuck in high arousal, just like every other exercise or protocol that turns up parasympathetic “tone,” as they say.
Bercelli specifically designed it for communities that don’t do “therapy” the way we do it in the west, and as such it is not a special kind of “therapy.” It’s a protocol to calm the nervous system. It works. It’s great. And, to repeat myself, it’s not therapy.
Bercelli was trained in bioenergetic analysis by Alexander Lowen and he learned almost the exact exercise during that training, because the lifted hips and the butterflied legs and the vibrations are all things that Lowen taught in his seminars. They are not therapy. They are bioenergetic exercises-which are not therapy. They are exercises designed to help bring awareness to the body and its energetic processes, allow people to learn to express their feelings, and to get good at “self possession” as Lowen called it. This is now called “self regulation” by most of therapyland.
In sum: I think it’s good exercise, and I think Bercelli did a good thing by innovating on this particular bioenergetic exercise in order bring it to large numbers of people who don’t do “therapy” but who need to reset, so to speak, after going through a large scale trauma or overwhelming experience together.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Thank you soo much for you're shared insights and knowledge. Please continue your work.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa 'after going through a large scale trauma '? But in earlier videos you denied 'bullshit' of thepapies based on trauma?
@persvrij 1. A trauma is an overwhelming experience that you can't digest. 2. This is not a therapy, it's an exercise. 3. This exercise is a way to decrease arousal in the nervous system, nothing more. That shift in arousal state can decrease PTSD symptoms, if not "resolve" "trauma." That's why I always personally refer to it as "tension" releasing exercise, not "trauma" releasing. Because, yes, "trauma therapy" is a bullshit term. Therapy is therapy, and it's always been for "trauma" (bullshit term) reduction.
Is it normal for someone’s fight flight freeze to be on all the time?
@gaylemcgregor4353 - only if they live in constant uncertainty, which can be generated by bad beliefs /an outdated model of self-in-world, or externally, by literally uncertain life circumstances. It gets pathological and enduring when people with an outdated model search for "evidence " (internal or external) for their bad or outdated belief that everyone else ignores (either becauset hey have updated their model or they don't have the same past experiences). Bottom line, unless one is living in literal uncertainty, a constant arousal state is generated by bad beliefs in the generative model. Please see Andy Clark's book The Experience Machine for deeper understanding. You'll find a link in the description to that book.
And your credentials are????? "A passionate person who sees that lies told by therapist educators are damaging the mental health of countless people." Where did you get that degree? Google Online University? Most therapists have credentials like LCP, or LCSW, or LMHC, or Ph.D. You have a RUclips channel with 1k very vulnerable subscribers. You might want to be careful about how you present yourself to the public before someone refers you to a licensing board. Buyer beware.
@inthehouse1960 - LMHC, Masters degree in Counseling Psychology from Columbia University (The Ivy League one, maybe you've heard of it). Twenty five years of clinical experience. Ten year personal psychoanalysis, four year Bioenergetic Analysis training. Over 200 hours of CEUs a year. Continuous personal self reflection practice. Any other questions?
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa love it - boom. We need people like you in the world sense-making and talking back to accusatory nonsense. Totally on your side.
PVT says dorsal vagal is sympathetic not parasympathetic...
That's just more of the same bad information.
Edit: Actually, she's got it right: the dorsal vagus is parasympathetic (so is the ventral vagus). But PVT is wrong in presuming that the dorsal vagus is responsible for bradycardia, or a sudden drop in heart rate. It's not. If anything, it's the ventral vagus, which is the opposite.
Thanks Leah, this video is a big improvement on your previous one on polyvagal theory, and I appreciate your references to research both in the video and especially also the links in the description, noting the article by Paul Grossman as a key claimant of the debunking research. Appreciated your responding to my feedback on the previous episode too. Well done.
Please read Dr. Porges' response to Grossman's claims!
@SoZen08 - Porges' response paper does nothing to address the problem of the fact that the brain is predictive, not reactive, which is the true undoing of his entire idea...aside from the fact that his response is simply restatements of the same falsehoods about the evolutionary biology of the vagus, rsa, and hrv that he started with. His "science" is sham. The idea, nothing but Dogma. No therapist needs his pseudoscience to support their methods. Relationship being primary for humans and lower heart rate being the substrate for calmness are not ideas that need his fantasies of a brain based "social engagement system" or "neuroception" to be true.
Hi Leah, I was on a call today with Stephen Porges. I was considering the Poly Vagal Institute cert to add credibility to my community organisation of therapists. I was leaning towards the trauma trap a couple of years ago and realised it was becoming a strong word with physical implications, so I dropped it from my therapy speak where possible. Are you familiar with Stephen's work around the SSP? Do you have any thoughts or cross-references?
I'm familiar enough with it to categorize it as a gimmick. There are many exercies and protocols to downregulate the nervous sytem. If you want to throw your wagon behind that horse, you'll probably get somewhere, but nowhere special. As for training, your money is better spent getting consultaion on predicive processing and its application in the mental health space. I don't have any courses up and running yet, but I do individual and group consultation. That is not a sales pitch even though it sounds like one. I encourage you to find anyone who can teach it to you and your people.
The science PV is based on is dead, falsified and superceded by newer data; therefore, PV "science" ideas are also dead. They're zombie. It's best to learn the 21st century science of cognition and emotion. Hope that helps.
p.s. This does not mean that connection with a caring person isn't helpful, it doesn't mean that calming the nervous system is not helpful, it doesn't even mean the protocols and exercises they teach are not helpful. It means that the "science" they're selling your their products with is GARBAGE, and this is not a controversial statement in top notch cognitive neuroscience circles. That should tell you something.
If emotional responses arent physiological responses, what are they and how are they experienced?
@missl6631 - There is nothing in this video that says they aren't physiological. They aren't innate. Big difference. The book How Emotions Are Made will explain. In fact, deeper into the point, there isn't a thought in your head, or any other experience for that matter, that isn't accompanied by and infused with the feeling state of your body. This is what mind-body unity is.
However, even though I think the theory of constructed emotion, and predictive processing both have solid evidence behind them, I wouldn't suggest anyone read current pop science books to get informed. Buy real text books! Entry-level college textbooks distill what has passed muster in the scientific world for a while. That's still not 100% guaranteed to be true, but more likely to be than any recent findings.
Unfortunately, textbooks take too long to remove outdated material. Using them to be informed is a crapshoot sometimes.
Leah - Thank you for sharing your take on PVT.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (Shakespeare)
This opinion from a biologist, engineer, and IFS-skilled trauma coach who is familiar with, and who acknowledges the value and importance of, the predictive (allostatic) model of brain function.
I'm not disputing your analysis and conclusion; I'm questioning the need for such intensity and certainty in a context where curiosity is of paramount importance.
Peace be with you...
"Tomorrow's relational mastery (and mystery) begins with mental calm and equanimity today."
Appreciate the comment, Rick. What's your question exactly? Because based on the rest of the sentence (after the assertion of my intensity and certainty) it seems you must be questioning whether I can assume a posture of curiosity. Is that correct? Do you think that I assume a stance of intensity and certainty in my consulting room just because I do it in this context? And as for the intensity and certainity, do you think a milquetoast presentation would make more impact?
In science theories that come to be widely accepted weren’t necessarily so in their beginning. It’s just that those who continued to denounce it eventually died off.
Such as?
Pure opinion. You give no basis for your constant statement of wrong. I won’t get into your tone of voice except to say that I scanned for danger and turned off your video.
@sarahhopkinsluvscats - my "opinion" is based on the up-to-date, undisputed scientific research in the extensive bibliography in the description. Thanks for the comment, the algorithm loves it.
Ive read Friston but the condescending attitude made this a hard watch
@@bajajaja- I'm punching up, so it's impossible for this to be condescention. But I appreciate the assumption that I'm at the same level as the old-timer therapy-training-affiliate marketing group who promotes this garbage.
I also fell for the PolyBagel Theory.
For some reason "polybagel" makes me think of a bread roll for Jewish parrots from Poland
Thank you for this. It is so refreshing to hear some solid, no-nonsense explanations of things cerebral. Everything you say makes total sense. it is frightening what some people are passing off as science to us lay people these days. You are completely credible, especially by admitting your own fallibility. Thanks again.
Regards,
Bob McGowan. (Not the Chair Circle!)
Good video. You'll probably get a lot more views if you keep the title simple and also title it: "What's wrong with polyvagal theory" or "Why polyvagal theory is pseudoscience" or something.
I wouldn’t have clicked on it if that was the title
Include something more than your opinion.
Is this about porges incorrect explanation about physiology and anatomy rather than there being no poly vagal nerve theory . His explanation of the theory is incorrect . Because as far asi am aware most science is theoretical . I cant say i ever bothered with poly vagal theory to begin with , neuro science and an understanding of brain function seems a better idea . Sounds like he has used semi plausible statements without really understanding how the brain works .
You're so beautiful! Also you look a lot like my sister
You clearly don't understand the science or have not kept up with the latest science, I'll stick to getting my nuero science from nuero scientists.
@maxchill1 - Maybe check out Karl Friston. The world's most cited scientist, a neuroscientist, who agrees with what I'm saying, which I learned from him. (And other top .01% cited neuroscientists)
Stephen Porges is not a neuroscientist
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa Was Karl Friston in your reference above? What else should I read of his?
@@Orangesky3 Pick anything of his related to mental health…schizophrenia, eating disorders, depression… Just use Google Scholar.
@@LeahBensonTherapyTampa ok. Thank you