I know it's a sensitive topic, and I hope we can all have a production discussion has to where the sport is going to make sure it retains all of its charm! Curious to know what y'all think of what's going on and what matters most to you!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and perspective. I'm out when it comes to all things UTMB. I put my 2024 season together a few weeks before the Whistler controversy began. My goal was to collect stones and figure out a way to toe a line in Chamonix. I had a shot at 15 stones. I was repeatedly disappointed with the UTMB group with their apparent lack of awareness, nebulous responses, and frank ZFG attitude towards North American trail running sentiment. Therefore, we, as a family, are planning to head to Chilliwack in September to either participate in the 100m or find another way to support Coastal Mountain Trail Running. I'm happy to give my $.02 in a podcast as well. Thank you, and KEEP GOING!
Kind of the same for me tbh, although I had changed my mind a little before the whole Gary thing. I wanted (and I guess still do) race UTMB someday but hope they listen to feedback and change a few things. Because UTMB itself looks like a great and unique experience (although seeing some video, it may be a bigger crowd than what I typically enjoy - but still would want to experience it). So I was looking at racing Canyon and Val d’Aran. And everyone I spoke to about canyon was a bit disappointed with the race and aid station (especially when considering the entry fee). A lot of folks felt they were cutting corner and just put up a subpar event. With Val D’aran I don’t know anyone personally but indirectly heard similar feedback (plus I read somewhere that a bunch of folks got sick from the water or something but that’s old). The Gary thing certainly didn’t help, but I already felt there were a bunch of other races I’d rather do first that were on similar dates and I had only heard positive things (namely Cocodona and QMT).
Simon, you make so much sense! This is a balanced thoughtful discussion with logical solutions. It does make me happy that my ultramarathons were from 1980 to 2003. We were thrilled to have water stations here and there. I always carried the food I would need and would often go out the day before a race and hide drinks or food along the race course. Oh, the old days of just going out and having fun running all day on mountain trails or roads. Geez, I am old!
Ah you people and pioneers were something else for sure! Things seems to have changed so much, and those rugged version sound great. I love hearing stories about "oh we were just filling our bottle at water stream, and fueled with ritz crackers"
You may be old as you say, but your perspective on ultra trail running events reflects the true nature of being out there. My ultra days began around the time yours was ending. I loved that the events (whether big or small) were more about the runner versus the environment, themselves and their ability to overcome obstacles. They were individual events; people didn't show up with an entourage of crew, pacers, photographers, etc. I like those days...
Great video! UTMB and Vail did what Ironman has been doing for years. Allow someone else to create an event, test it by how they do, and strong arm them right out. Reality: UTMB can bring more racers to events than just a small organizer, no shots taken! This brings more money, and VAIL is all about money. The CEO's job is to make investors money, it's the way it is. I think Pro Running needs to take a page out of the PTO's book. (Professional Triathletes Organization) They got sick of drawing all the money to Ironman and getting nothing out of it. Some of the most underpaid. They started the T100 race series. This allows the Pro's to vote and make decisions where they race. Traction is huge! Gary got pushed out, there is no doubt. Nothing will change unless the race fails, then UTMB will step away, and the gates will open again.
I'm obviously not following the triathlon world nearly as much, and didn't know about T100 (which honestly sounds like a Terminator name). Is that recent? How much traction do they have? Totally agree that it can shift the power dynamic - which otherwise is very much one-sided!
@@runningwithsimon HaHa, I agree! The PTO did 2 years of misc. events world wide. The TV demand was huge. Their events are great, I did the age group one in TX. What they have done is 5-6 events 2024, top 20 women, and men. It's a point system to get in, as they have not perfected it, its great to have a race where you do not have 1 or 2 top racing pro's with a few misc pro's sprinkle in fighting for 3rd and down. But Anyone can win racing. The demand is huge, fans are stoked, and I will prob fly to (2) this year alone to see live! Yes when you have investors you limit prize money, increase costs for age groupers, and I think sometimes ruin events. Some you can make better, but taking someone out like this.....not ok and I can understand why the community is upset. Says a lot about the ultra community, and I am glad my journey involves such great wholesome people!
I feel you did a very good job Simon of presenting your opinion and options for revamping the current UTMB situation. I am a long-time ultrarunner and while the appeal of running around Mont Blanc once appealed to me, I have come to where I stand today and that is that I do not have any interest in supporting the UTMB-stone system. In fact, I continually ask: Why do we need a 100-mile world championship anyway?
True - maybe there's no need. It's the race organization that mainly benefit from a 'world championship'. I guess younger elite runners too to some extent as it can help them put their name out there quickly if they can rank in a major race (vs. having to grind for years winning many many races)
If UTMB ownership are freaked out by the reaction of the trail running community, the Poletti's should break off the Chamonix race from the portfolio of UTMB races worldwide, the portfolio in which Ironman owns 45%. That would protect the sanctity of that race, and what its done for trail running. I could care less about UTMB's other races, only Chamonix has value.
I wonder if contractually they can do that. As you say, the value of the series is in UTMB Chamonix itself, so that's really what ironman bought. Even if they are minority stakeholder, the majority stakeholder typically can't just run away like that. But they can probably influence decision making and how the series is expanding. Maybe part of the issue is simply that they grew too fast, and should now focus on improving quality rather than quality. The Poletti's did a good job in Chamonix, so maybe they can raise the standard elsewhere?
Hello Simon , thanks for a lovely video. Generally speaking I think monopolies must be resisted anywhere and everywhere in life. I am not advocating boycotts but with respect, I believe that boycotts can and do work. I was raised in apartheid South Africa, and it was exactly through boycotts by the international community that ultimately brought the apartheid régime to an end. Just a thought Good Sir.
That's a very interesting thought and you're so right. Any monopolies lead to unbalanced power, and it's hard to rebalance the power dynamics - boycott might be the best way. People have power, but only if we unite!
@@runningwithsimon I could not agree with you more Good Sir. Please continue with your lovely , informative and useful videos. I live in Paris, France and cant help thinking how French you sound :-). Wishing you a lovely end to the week
I spent a ton of money travelling to Speedgoat in Utah from Canada last summer and doing the 26K and 50K to maximize my Stones for the money because I turn 60 this year and thought it CCC would be a great milestone race. Needless to say, I killed myself for nothing. I did not get in. Now I will never go to any of them again. I will support Canadian races (except Whistler) from now on with a few exceptions but not if they have a qualification system other than proof of capability. That’s different. I’m on a budget and price will definitely be part if the criteria for me to enter. Whistler is way overpriced for everything anyway and would cost a fortune to go.
I've been racing IM for well over 30yrs, both in the UK, and Oz. The line '"There will always be local races...", was exactly what we kept hearing over and over in triathlon and look at the state of that of that now. In particular in the US, there is only one game in town and that's IM. PTO are having a stab but ask nearly anyone stateside and triathlon = IM. So many many indie grass roots races have just gone. It's not about UTMB taking over every race, it's about UTMB becoming so saturated in the market that the new entrants to the sport with limited disposable income will not want to spend their money on a 'non branded' race. This is what causes the smaller races that haven't been aggressively taken over (and an inferior product put in place) to die out. We've seen this played out, over and over again in triathlon by the very brand that UTMB have thrown in with. Marketing and crushing the competition in any way possible is the strategy and all I can say is that us older triathletes will get zero satisfaction from saying 'we told you so'
It is scary for sure, and it's true that people pay 'for the name' in ultrarunning too. I actually have a very specific one in mind that I don't think anyone would even do otherwise...
I never previously did a UTMB race just because they are too crowded and I don't trail run to stand in queues and crowds of people. I was going to do the Chamonix UTMB once just because it is UTMB, but since the Whistler and Ironman I will never run a UTMB race. There are so many great races in Europe and the Alps that there is no need to have anything to do with UTMB. Swiss Peaks, Tor des Geants, Crossing Switzerland, Scenic Trail, Swiss Alps, Iron Trail, X-trail to name just a few.
I just hope they listen to feedback and change a few things. There's a lot of good race in the alps, but UTMB itself remains a classic. It was one of the first (if not the first) race I've ever REALLY wanted to do. So there's something sentimental to it - like my first dream as an ultra runner. The other race like that for me is Tor des Geants - which I'm actually doing this year. So I can't say I'll never do UTMB - I'm not planning for it - still zero stones despite 42x 100 milers, but if they go in the right direction, I'll reconsider (and I heard Canyon 100 was better this year, so it seems like at least they are partially listening). The crowd would probably annoy me, but if we compare to another classic - say Hardrock - maybe I prefer a crowd than having to wait 8-10 years of lottery to get in, needing to requalify over and over... The 'by UTMB' is a different story for me. Buying US races is annoying as I don't see added value (if anything, it reduces it). But I still would look at those races individually - like Kodiak. Do I want to race Kodiak? Not "do I want to race Kodiak BY UTMB". And if they keep the quality, maybe some day.
@@runningwithsimon Good luck in the Tor! I was planning to do it this year but when I finished the Swiss Peaks last year they announced the new Swiss peaks 660 for this year! so I had to sign up for that 🤪
@@trailsandbeers Wow that's awesome! I might give swiss 360 a shot the year after (I was VERY close to signing up this year - like basically 1 or 2 days from signing up when I got pulled off the waitlist for TOR) Good luck out there, sounds amazing!
I volunteered at a race that had been bought out by a large, well known RD... the price was quite high, but I figured you get what you pay for. I was wrong... there was so little food provided for the runners towards the end of the grueling race, by the RD representatives themselves. Take a package of ramen... snap it in half. Then snap it in half again. That 2x2 inch square of noodles was being given to runners who had been out in terrible weather for 36 hours. I just plastered my innocent smile on, combined multiple bowls while singing "runners gotta eat!", and fed my runners. 😂 Pinching pennies when it comes to aid stations isn't a fair- or even safe- business practice, and it soured me on races by that popular RD- which is sad, since they bought my areas biggest races!
Curious who you mean - but it's very classy of you to not say so I'm not asking. But I think I know - and if I'm right, that large RD is some times cheap on gels but I've always figured it's because these are pricey. But everything else tends to be fine. That said, RD is large so not even sure who makes decision on things like that. But also, I could be thinking of a totally different RD
@@runningwithsimon😂 😉 No point in getting blackballed, I'll try to improve it from within. They had RD reps driving between stations, and in constant contact, so even if the issue was they were running low, there's really no excuse... hit a 24 hour gas station, for crying out loud. Runners paid a fortune for the race, and might be depending on that fuel to safely complete the race. I've heard wonderful things about them, so hopefully that's just a rare occurrence...
The UTMB series has some fantastic races (e.g. Eiger Ultra) and I am sure that many people run them because they are fun races, easy to discover and book. I somehow don’t believe that the stones are the main motivation to run the series. My main gripe with UTMB is that the registration fees are getting more expensive while the races are getting larger and larger. Racing is slowly becoming a luxury.
I think that's absolutely fair! I'm glad you're saying this, because yes, we're sometimes very harsh on UTMB and people working for them. And objectively, some of their races are solid, and some of their employees are truly passionate about the sport. But some of them are bad. But maybe some of those bad experience can be attribute to some race being new-ish, or growing too rapidly - which is hard to handle. Any 1st or 2nd year race will have issues, but we usually forgive them (or at least I do). But somehow for UTMB, it seems there isn't as much patience. It's speculation, but maybe it's because with higher price, you expect higher service. Or maybe it's because one would think that a major organization like UTMB would be able to execute perfectly every race.
I'm not sure there's much controversy at this point; a lot of us are settled and done on the matter-- we have no interest in UTMB and most associated races... this year, or next, and probably the year after that. Focused on better things, not on a contrary argument to this collective decision or any "controversy" still lingering around it in 2024.
It doesn't have to involve boycotting at all. There are simply better organizations and races out there. They deserve our focus. Let the folks at UTMB be alone with their problems for a little while. They are not deserving of much attention right now, that's all I'm saying.
On a teeny tiny comparison and wayyy less of a big deal... We had a local trail company who put on great races on land that other companies didn't get to use.. And they were kinda a 'cult' following, I did all of my first trail races with them, they had the best medals etc etc etc BUT they got greedy! They got cliquey and they got arrogant so on a personal level I stopped running their events because as you said, I felt their values didn't sit right with my moral compass.. Great move because I started looking elsewhere and found some beautiful races ran by smaller companies, yes.. Not so glitzy BUT they sat well and felt authentic.. It really is always, about following your moral gut instinct.. If it makes you smile in your soul.. Its OK.. If it feels full of doubt and cringe then walk away x
Couldn't agree more. And I think right now we're in the golden age, or maybe wild west, or...I don't know. But there is a bazillion options, so you can really 'shop' to find what's align with your value, and how you want the sport to grow. And hopefully that will help shape the future. Personally, I'm a big supporter of events that are accessible for all because for me it's about connecting with people while having a great adventure (so not too pricey, not too selective/exclusive, not a click, cutoff reasonable for your normal runner with a day job, etc). And events that puts the experience of the runner first (you can feel it when the RD is passionate)
Solution for participation in UTMB or any other "lottery" race is simple. Just sort registrations according their ITRA/UTMB index and take first 1500 who will race. This will also ensure quality of the race like World Champs or Olympics where are only the best.
I think it's better than the stone system, but that's still a bit elitist. I think slow runners deserve to race just as much as fast runners. But I get that there's no perfect system and maybe that's the solution. Because waiting 8 years to get into Hardrock and having to "renew" your qualification every 2 years with such a limited list is annoying. But at least they aren't creating a monopoly which I think is what rub folks the wrong way with UTMB.
You are missing the important context that Vail and Gary were fighting before UTMB was ever in the picture and Vail and Everest corp were first to usurp Gary’s race (though he eventually got to put it on), also Gary treats that mountain as his mountain even though he has no ownership stake. I believe UTMB claimed Vail approached them about putting on the race. This could be nothing more than Vail corp not wanting to deal with Gary and UTMB getting the blowback for it. I think Gary’s version of story has been given a lot of weight even though there are a lot of holes in it.
Thanks - I guess I wasn’t clear enough when I said the relation between Gary and Vail degraded over a period of years, and that this is version is speculative. Fact is, the Vail-Gary situation is just the tip of the iceberg as to why people are upset at UTMB.
I'm already signed up for two UTMB races this year and travel arrangements made. The stones system was confusing, but a bit of a motivator. I didn't make get into OCC this year and will have a lot of stones for next year's lottery. If I don't get in, I'll probably move on and do more non-UTMB races. If I get in, I'll probably race in Chamonix, but then move on and do non-UTMB races. In any event, their LTV (lifetime value) on me has been reduced by this Whistler situation (and dropping Corinne Malcolm) unless they do something dramatically different, which is unlikely. Who knows, maybe non-UTMB races will get an unexpected boost from this, which would already be a good outcome.
Makes tons of sense to me. Honestly, if I had the stones - I’d try to do UTMB itself too. It is for sure a classic. And I wouldn’t cancel things either. But I don’t, and I won’t go chasing stones. If there’s a race that happens to be UTMB close to us, and I hear is great, I’ll give it a shot. But in the meantime - I just hope they listen and take the feedback positively instead of defensively.
The consept of a rotating championship where the final moved would be an great idea. This would be great for rhe sport, showcasing the top flight athletes. The Trail Majors would be a great place for this to happen if a big name sponsor could be found? The Ironman formula is also a great and well proved, it has been a great success for thw aport of triathlon however it ia not the only big money race organisation you have the ahoter distance races with their own. I feel we just see Ironman as a juggernaut due to its success. The Ironman brand could do alot for the sport by bring in more sponsorship deals to help races and athletes. Only time will tell
Yeah it's true that it's easy to hate on ironman, but there's no denying they've been successful and are good are certain things. That said, I know a lot of triathletes that aren't happy with them at all, feeling they are greedy and that many events are subpar. That especially common in those that knew the the pre- ironman era. But absolutely, they have resource. So hopefully they take the feedback constructively, and now focus on improving quality rather than quantity or profit. I think a key difference too is that triathletes are not as 'price sensitive' as trail runners. They already spend thousands and thousands on bike, gear, private coach, accommodation, travel. I wouldn't be surprised that all included (training, travel, racing), they spend on average ~$10-20k to race a single IM. So IM could increase price to ~$1k without creating much uproar. But that won't fly in trail running. We're just a bunch of dirty and broke hippies...!
@@runningwithsimon I completed in triathlons for years and completed in a number of Ironman races. As you say the difference between the quality of the races is very different, the older and well known ones were a lot better, due to the course routes, i did a new one added to the circuit after it had been run twice, thinking that all the kinks and criticism would have sorted, oh no it was terrible! They cut the race two years later due to the criticism. This is as you point out the money machine at work. Put a race on and the athletes will come. I think this is what people in the trail running are worried about, a big wheel of races for races sake, and the converted UTMB brand being on it for some bragging rights. I just don't think in the trail scene this one will fly as people don't care about bragging rights and bravado status. As you point out the cost of races and kit in triathlons are so different to trail running. I enjoy the trail scene with itself down to earth nature (no pun intended) and wholesome attitude, the pros can be found mingling at low key races and high profile and mix and chat to all, this is what trail running is at its spirit/essence.
I respect your opinion but I don’t agree at all. I like the stone system. Most of the runners wanting to do UTMB are not elite and there needs to be a system to get in. Most of the races in the US (many of which I’m doing to collect stones) are amazing events that I get to do and collect stones in the process. I fear the problem is there is just not enough room for all the racers that want to attend these amazing races.. Where I have beef with UTMB is them taking over/buying out/booting smaller races in the process. UTMB should be supporting the smaller, independent races. That will only grow the sport (and generally the right thing to do.) I think UTMB serves a great purpose in bringing attention and sponsorship dollars to Trail racing to help support the elite runners but not in spite of the people who have been doing in longer and for the love of the sport. I hope elite runners can pressure UTMB to grow but also help grow independent races in the process. Also to commit not to force out races like Gary’s and others. Hopefully everyone wins and the sport grows to new heights
Je comprends qu’on encourage le petit course, mais en même temps, je parie que ceux qui se plaignent vont aussi faire du shopping chez Walmart ou Amazon. le « petit gars » compte lors du choix. De plus, une grande entreprise signifie plus d’argent, ce qui signifie plus de marketing. qui développe le sport pour tout le monde. même les petites courses !
C'est bien vraie, et c'est une triste realite. Je pense que j'essais de ne pas le voir comme un "tout ou rien". Il y a une place pour les chaines de restaurants ET le petit resto du coin. Et encourager le petit resto veut simplement dire y aller, ce qui ne veut pas necessairement dire qu'on ne va jamais a la chaine.
I know it's a sensitive topic, and I hope we can all have a production discussion has to where the sport is going to make sure it retains all of its charm! Curious to know what y'all think of what's going on and what matters most to you!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and perspective. I'm out when it comes to all things UTMB. I put my 2024 season together a few weeks before the Whistler controversy began. My goal was to collect stones and figure out a way to toe a line in Chamonix. I had a shot at 15 stones. I was repeatedly disappointed with the UTMB group with their apparent lack of awareness, nebulous responses, and frank ZFG attitude towards North American trail running sentiment. Therefore, we, as a family, are planning to head to Chilliwack in September to either participate in the 100m or find another way to support Coastal Mountain Trail Running. I'm happy to give my $.02 in a podcast as well. Thank you, and KEEP GOING!
Kind of the same for me tbh, although I had changed my mind a little before the whole Gary thing. I wanted (and I guess still do) race UTMB someday but hope they listen to feedback and change a few things. Because UTMB itself looks like a great and unique experience (although seeing some video, it may be a bigger crowd than what I typically enjoy - but still would want to experience it). So I was looking at racing Canyon and Val d’Aran. And everyone I spoke to about canyon was a bit disappointed with the race and aid station (especially when considering the entry fee). A lot of folks felt they were cutting corner and just put up a subpar event. With Val D’aran I don’t know anyone personally but indirectly heard similar feedback (plus I read somewhere that a bunch of folks got sick from the water or something but that’s old). The Gary thing certainly didn’t help, but I already felt there were a bunch of other races I’d rather do first that were on similar dates and I had only heard positive things (namely Cocodona and QMT).
@@runningwithsimonThere are many 100 milers in the Alps similar to UTMB, such as UTMR
@@ryancampbell3963 True - I should look it up more. I just don't know them. Although short term, I'd really want to do TDG
Simon, you make so much sense! This is a balanced thoughtful discussion with logical solutions. It does make me happy that my ultramarathons were from 1980 to 2003. We were thrilled to have water stations here and there. I always carried the food I would need and would often go out the day before a race and hide drinks or food along the race course.
Oh, the old days of just going out and having fun running all day on mountain trails or roads.
Geez, I am old!
Ah you people and pioneers were something else for sure! Things seems to have changed so much, and those rugged version sound great. I love hearing stories about "oh we were just filling our bottle at water stream, and fueled with ritz crackers"
You may be old as you say, but your perspective on ultra trail running events reflects the true nature of being out there. My ultra days began around the time yours was ending. I loved that the events (whether big or small) were more about the runner versus the environment, themselves and their ability to overcome obstacles. They were individual events; people didn't show up with an entourage of crew, pacers, photographers, etc. I like those days...
Great video! UTMB and Vail did what Ironman has been doing for years. Allow someone else to create an event, test it by how they do, and strong arm them right out. Reality: UTMB can bring more racers to events than just a small organizer, no shots taken! This brings more money, and VAIL is all about money. The CEO's job is to make investors money, it's the way it is. I think Pro Running needs to take a page out of the PTO's book. (Professional Triathletes Organization) They got sick of drawing all the money to Ironman and getting nothing out of it. Some of the most underpaid. They started the T100 race series. This allows the Pro's to vote and make decisions where they race. Traction is huge! Gary got pushed out, there is no doubt. Nothing will change unless the race fails, then UTMB will step away, and the gates will open again.
I'm obviously not following the triathlon world nearly as much, and didn't know about T100 (which honestly sounds like a Terminator name). Is that recent? How much traction do they have? Totally agree that it can shift the power dynamic - which otherwise is very much one-sided!
@@runningwithsimon HaHa, I agree! The PTO did 2 years of misc. events world wide. The TV demand was huge. Their events are great, I did the age group one in TX. What they have done is 5-6 events 2024, top 20 women, and men. It's a point system to get in, as they have not perfected it, its great to have a race where you do not have 1 or 2 top racing pro's with a few misc pro's sprinkle in fighting for 3rd and down. But Anyone can win racing. The demand is huge, fans are stoked, and I will prob fly to (2) this year alone to see live! Yes when you have investors you limit prize money, increase costs for age groupers, and I think sometimes ruin events. Some you can make better, but taking someone out like this.....not ok and I can understand why the community is upset. Says a lot about the ultra community, and I am glad my journey involves such great wholesome people!
@@allenvilleendurance I'll really have to read about all that - that's giving me hope!
Thank you for explaining this situation so well and suggesting solutions.
I hope it’s helpful in creating a dialogue
Well thought out and put together video on this topic. 🙌🏼
Thanks - hope it's productive and help people think and discuss about this
I feel you did a very good job Simon of presenting your opinion and options for revamping the current UTMB situation. I am a long-time ultrarunner and while the appeal of running around Mont Blanc once appealed to me, I have come to where I stand today and that is that I do not have any interest in supporting the UTMB-stone system. In fact, I continually ask: Why do we need a 100-mile world championship anyway?
True - maybe there's no need. It's the race organization that mainly benefit from a 'world championship'. I guess younger elite runners too to some extent as it can help them put their name out there quickly if they can rank in a major race (vs. having to grind for years winning many many races)
If UTMB ownership are freaked out by the reaction of the trail running community, the Poletti's should break off the Chamonix race from the portfolio of UTMB races worldwide, the portfolio in which Ironman owns 45%. That would protect the sanctity of that race, and what its done for trail running. I could care less about UTMB's other races, only Chamonix has value.
I wonder if contractually they can do that. As you say, the value of the series is in UTMB Chamonix itself, so that's really what ironman bought. Even if they are minority stakeholder, the majority stakeholder typically can't just run away like that. But they can probably influence decision making and how the series is expanding. Maybe part of the issue is simply that they grew too fast, and should now focus on improving quality rather than quality. The Poletti's did a good job in Chamonix, so maybe they can raise the standard elsewhere?
Hello Simon , thanks for a lovely video. Generally speaking I think monopolies must be resisted anywhere and everywhere in life. I am not advocating boycotts but with respect, I believe that boycotts can and do work. I was raised in apartheid South Africa, and it was exactly through boycotts by the international community that ultimately brought the apartheid régime to an end. Just a thought Good Sir.
That's a very interesting thought and you're so right. Any monopolies lead to unbalanced power, and it's hard to rebalance the power dynamics - boycott might be the best way. People have power, but only if we unite!
@@runningwithsimon I could not agree with you more Good Sir. Please continue with your lovely , informative and useful videos. I live in Paris, France and cant help thinking how French you sound :-). Wishing you a lovely end to the week
Excellent video! Your opinion matters to us. I congratulate you on how you embrace the subject.
And yours too - it's OUR sport and we'll make sure it goes the right direction
I spent a ton of money travelling to Speedgoat in Utah from Canada last summer and doing the 26K and 50K to maximize my Stones for the money because I turn 60 this year and thought it CCC would be a great milestone race. Needless to say, I killed myself for nothing. I did not get in. Now I will never go to any of them again. I will support Canadian races (except Whistler) from now on with a few exceptions but not if they have a qualification system other than proof of capability. That’s different. I’m on a budget and price will definitely be part if the criteria for me to enter. Whistler is way overpriced for everything anyway and would cost a fortune to go.
So sorry to hear that - the cost def add up when traveling far. Unfortunate that you didn't get in...
I've been racing IM for well over 30yrs, both in the UK, and Oz. The line '"There will always be local races...", was exactly what we kept hearing over and over in triathlon and look at the state of that of that now.
In particular in the US, there is only one game in town and that's IM. PTO are having a stab but ask nearly anyone stateside and triathlon = IM. So many many indie grass roots races have just gone.
It's not about UTMB taking over every race, it's about UTMB becoming so saturated in the market that the new entrants to the sport with limited disposable income will not want to spend their money on a 'non branded' race. This is what causes the smaller races that haven't been aggressively taken over (and an inferior product put in place) to die out.
We've seen this played out, over and over again in triathlon by the very brand that UTMB have thrown in with. Marketing and crushing the competition in any way possible is the strategy and all I can say is that us older triathletes will get zero satisfaction from saying 'we told you so'
It is scary for sure, and it's true that people pay 'for the name' in ultrarunning too. I actually have a very specific one in mind that I don't think anyone would even do otherwise...
I never previously did a UTMB race just because they are too crowded and I don't trail run to stand in queues and crowds of people.
I was going to do the Chamonix UTMB once just because it is UTMB, but since the Whistler and Ironman I will never run a UTMB race.
There are so many great races in Europe and the Alps that there is no need to have anything to do with UTMB.
Swiss Peaks, Tor des Geants, Crossing Switzerland, Scenic Trail, Swiss Alps, Iron Trail, X-trail to name just a few.
I just hope they listen to feedback and change a few things. There's a lot of good race in the alps, but UTMB itself remains a classic. It was one of the first (if not the first) race I've ever REALLY wanted to do. So there's something sentimental to it - like my first dream as an ultra runner. The other race like that for me is Tor des Geants - which I'm actually doing this year. So I can't say I'll never do UTMB - I'm not planning for it - still zero stones despite 42x 100 milers, but if they go in the right direction, I'll reconsider (and I heard Canyon 100 was better this year, so it seems like at least they are partially listening). The crowd would probably annoy me, but if we compare to another classic - say Hardrock - maybe I prefer a crowd than having to wait 8-10 years of lottery to get in, needing to requalify over and over...
The 'by UTMB' is a different story for me. Buying US races is annoying as I don't see added value (if anything, it reduces it). But I still would look at those races individually - like Kodiak. Do I want to race Kodiak? Not "do I want to race Kodiak BY UTMB". And if they keep the quality, maybe some day.
@@runningwithsimon Good luck in the Tor!
I was planning to do it this year but when I finished the Swiss Peaks last year they announced the new Swiss peaks 660 for this year! so I had to sign up for that 🤪
@@trailsandbeers Wow that's awesome!
I might give swiss 360 a shot the year after (I was VERY close to signing up this year - like basically 1 or 2 days from signing up when I got pulled off the waitlist for TOR)
Good luck out there, sounds amazing!
I volunteered at a race that had been bought out by a large, well known RD... the price was quite high, but I figured you get what you pay for. I was wrong... there was so little food provided for the runners towards the end of the grueling race, by the RD representatives themselves. Take a package of ramen... snap it in half. Then snap it in half again. That 2x2 inch square of noodles was being given to runners who had been out in terrible weather for 36 hours. I just plastered my innocent smile on, combined multiple bowls while singing "runners gotta eat!", and fed my runners. 😂 Pinching pennies when it comes to aid stations isn't a fair- or even safe- business practice, and it soured me on races by that popular RD- which is sad, since they bought my areas biggest races!
Curious who you mean - but it's very classy of you to not say so I'm not asking. But I think I know - and if I'm right, that large RD is some times cheap on gels but I've always figured it's because these are pricey. But everything else tends to be fine. That said, RD is large so not even sure who makes decision on things like that. But also, I could be thinking of a totally different RD
@@runningwithsimon😂 😉 No point in getting blackballed, I'll try to improve it from within. They had RD reps driving between stations, and in constant contact, so even if the issue was they were running low, there's really no excuse... hit a 24 hour gas station, for crying out loud. Runners paid a fortune for the race, and might be depending on that fuel to safely complete the race. I've heard wonderful things about them, so hopefully that's just a rare occurrence...
@@Kelly_Ben Gotta admit I had to google blackballing
@@runningwithsimon omg, I’m wheezing. Did you think it was a terrible side effect of ultras you hadn’t gotten yet?? LMAO
The UTMB series has some fantastic races (e.g. Eiger Ultra) and I am sure that many people run them because they are fun races, easy to discover and book. I somehow don’t believe that the stones are the main motivation to run the series. My main gripe with UTMB is that the registration fees are getting more expensive while the races are getting larger and larger. Racing is slowly becoming a luxury.
I think that's absolutely fair! I'm glad you're saying this, because yes, we're sometimes very harsh on UTMB and people working for them. And objectively, some of their races are solid, and some of their employees are truly passionate about the sport. But some of them are bad. But maybe some of those bad experience can be attribute to some race being new-ish, or growing too rapidly - which is hard to handle. Any 1st or 2nd year race will have issues, but we usually forgive them (or at least I do). But somehow for UTMB, it seems there isn't as much patience. It's speculation, but maybe it's because with higher price, you expect higher service. Or maybe it's because one would think that a major organization like UTMB would be able to execute perfectly every race.
Loving the HURT 100 branding 💥
I like advertising good race somewhat subtly!
I'm not sure there's much controversy at this point; a lot of us are settled and done on the matter-- we have no interest in UTMB and most associated races... this year, or next, and probably the year after that. Focused on better things, not on a contrary argument to this collective decision or any "controversy" still lingering around it in 2024.
It doesn't have to involve boycotting at all. There are simply better organizations and races out there. They deserve our focus. Let the folks at UTMB be alone with their problems for a little while. They are not deserving of much attention right now, that's all I'm saying.
I came for the information but stayed for the memes😂
haha plenty more where that came from!
On a teeny tiny comparison and wayyy less of a big deal... We had a local trail company who put on great races on land that other companies didn't get to use.. And they were kinda a 'cult' following, I did all of my first trail races with them, they had the best medals etc etc etc BUT they got greedy! They got cliquey and they got arrogant so on a personal level I stopped running their events because as you said, I felt their values didn't sit right with my moral compass.. Great move because I started looking elsewhere and found some beautiful races ran by smaller companies, yes.. Not so glitzy BUT they sat well and felt authentic.. It really is always, about following your moral gut instinct.. If it makes you smile in your soul.. Its OK.. If it feels full of doubt and cringe then walk away x
Couldn't agree more. And I think right now we're in the golden age, or maybe wild west, or...I don't know. But there is a bazillion options, so you can really 'shop' to find what's align with your value, and how you want the sport to grow. And hopefully that will help shape the future. Personally, I'm a big supporter of events that are accessible for all because for me it's about connecting with people while having a great adventure (so not too pricey, not too selective/exclusive, not a click, cutoff reasonable for your normal runner with a day job, etc). And events that puts the experience of the runner first (you can feel it when the RD is passionate)
Solution for participation in UTMB or any other "lottery" race is simple. Just sort registrations according their ITRA/UTMB index and take first 1500 who will race. This will also ensure quality of the race like World Champs or Olympics where are only the best.
I think it's better than the stone system, but that's still a bit elitist. I think slow runners deserve to race just as much as fast runners. But I get that there's no perfect system and maybe that's the solution. Because waiting 8 years to get into Hardrock and having to "renew" your qualification every 2 years with such a limited list is annoying. But at least they aren't creating a monopoly which I think is what rub folks the wrong way with UTMB.
I think thé kind if organisation you're talking about would bé great for everyone.
You are missing the important context that Vail and Gary were fighting before UTMB was ever in the picture and Vail and Everest corp were first to usurp Gary’s race (though he eventually got to put it on), also Gary treats that mountain as his mountain even though he has no ownership stake. I believe UTMB claimed Vail approached them about putting on the race. This could be nothing more than Vail corp not wanting to deal with Gary and UTMB getting the blowback for it. I think Gary’s version of story has been given a lot of weight even though there are a lot of holes in it.
Thanks - I guess I wasn’t clear enough when I said the relation between Gary and Vail degraded over a period of years, and that this is version is speculative. Fact is, the Vail-Gary situation is just the tip of the iceberg as to why people are upset at UTMB.
I'm already signed up for two UTMB races this year and travel arrangements made. The stones system was confusing, but a bit of a motivator. I didn't make get into OCC this year and will have a lot of stones for next year's lottery. If I don't get in, I'll probably move on and do more non-UTMB races. If I get in, I'll probably race in Chamonix, but then move on and do non-UTMB races. In any event, their LTV (lifetime value) on me has been reduced by this Whistler situation (and dropping Corinne Malcolm) unless they do something dramatically different, which is unlikely. Who knows, maybe non-UTMB races will get an unexpected boost from this, which would already be a good outcome.
Makes tons of sense to me. Honestly, if I had the stones - I’d try to do UTMB itself too. It is for sure a classic. And I wouldn’t cancel things either. But I don’t, and I won’t go chasing stones. If there’s a race that happens to be UTMB close to us, and I hear is great, I’ll give it a shot. But in the meantime - I just hope they listen and take the feedback positively instead of defensively.
The consept of a rotating championship where the final moved would be an great idea. This would be great for rhe sport, showcasing the top flight athletes. The Trail Majors would be a great place for this to happen if a big name sponsor could be found?
The Ironman formula is also a great and well proved, it has been a great success for thw aport of triathlon however it ia not the only big money race organisation you have the ahoter distance races with their own. I feel we just see Ironman as a juggernaut due to its success. The Ironman brand could do alot for the sport by bring in more sponsorship deals to help races and athletes. Only time will tell
Yeah it's true that it's easy to hate on ironman, but there's no denying they've been successful and are good are certain things. That said, I know a lot of triathletes that aren't happy with them at all, feeling they are greedy and that many events are subpar. That especially common in those that knew the the pre- ironman era.
But absolutely, they have resource. So hopefully they take the feedback constructively, and now focus on improving quality rather than quantity or profit. I think a key difference too is that triathletes are not as 'price sensitive' as trail runners. They already spend thousands and thousands on bike, gear, private coach, accommodation, travel. I wouldn't be surprised that all included (training, travel, racing), they spend on average ~$10-20k to race a single IM. So IM could increase price to ~$1k without creating much uproar. But that won't fly in trail running. We're just a bunch of dirty and broke hippies...!
@@runningwithsimon I completed in triathlons for years and completed in a number of Ironman races. As you say the difference between the quality of the races is very different, the older and well known ones were a lot better, due to the course routes, i did a new one added to the circuit after it had been run twice, thinking that all the kinks and criticism would have sorted, oh no it was terrible! They cut the race two years later due to the criticism. This is as you point out the money machine at work. Put a race on and the athletes will come. I think this is what people in the trail running are worried about, a big wheel of races for races sake, and the converted UTMB brand being on it for some bragging rights. I just don't think in the trail scene this one will fly as people don't care about bragging rights and bravado status. As you point out the cost of races and kit in triathlons are so different to trail running. I enjoy the trail scene with itself down to earth nature (no pun intended) and wholesome attitude, the pros can be found mingling at low key races and high profile and mix and chat to all, this is what trail running is at its spirit/essence.
I respect your opinion but I don’t agree at all. I like the stone system. Most of the runners wanting to do UTMB are not elite and there needs to be a system to get in. Most of the races in the US (many of which I’m doing to collect stones) are amazing events that I get to do and collect stones in the process. I fear the problem is there is just not enough room for all the racers that want to attend these amazing races..
Where I have beef with UTMB is them taking over/buying out/booting smaller races in the process. UTMB should be supporting the smaller, independent races. That will only grow the sport (and generally the right thing to do.) I think UTMB serves a great purpose in bringing attention and sponsorship dollars to Trail racing to help support the elite runners but not in spite of the people who have been doing in longer and for the love of the sport.
I hope elite runners can pressure UTMB to grow but also help grow independent races in the process. Also to commit not to force out races like Gary’s and others. Hopefully everyone wins and the sport grows to new heights
Je comprends qu’on encourage le petit course, mais en même temps, je parie que ceux qui se plaignent vont aussi faire du shopping chez Walmart ou Amazon. le « petit gars » compte lors du choix.
De plus, une grande entreprise signifie plus d’argent, ce qui signifie plus de marketing. qui développe le sport pour tout le monde. même les petites courses !
C'est bien vraie, et c'est une triste realite. Je pense que j'essais de ne pas le voir comme un "tout ou rien". Il y a une place pour les chaines de restaurants ET le petit resto du coin. Et encourager le petit resto veut simplement dire y aller, ce qui ne veut pas necessairement dire qu'on ne va jamais a la chaine.