I don't agree with the suggestion that Hodinkee should select the watches featured beforehand. Hodinkee is already so heavily manicured and lifeless. I appreciate the few occasions when they step back and let a collector share what they choose to share, and tell the stories they choose to tell. Occasionally, something interesting happens... like what we are seeing with Adam's collection.
I think that's a good point. Also, it's the watch collection. It is the collection. Good or bad. We like watches and I think we also like the stories told by the guests in the interview.
@@justinfletcher7630 they are a business, the bigger they get the more and more it becomes about the money. Then the shady shit increases more and more
the dude is as shallow as it gets. Didn't even write his own songs. Have you seen how he flirt? the guy is nothing but an angelic voice covered with tattoos. Feed him lines and he'll say whatever you want. Sell him some stuff, he'll buy it for sure
In Ben’s interview with Wei Koh several years back he said that he now only collects modern watches. He gave some wishy washy reasons why, but it was probably really because he saw too many shady things happening in the vintage world
Putting this in vintage car terms. Dudes don’t have a problem at all telling another dude they have an issue with a wheel or engine cover or door handle. I say call it out as soon as you see it. People ultimately respect honesty, even if it’s uncomfortable.
yep2. there's a reason why stock, totally stock vintage cars cost more money than their brothers who got their wheels changed. and vintage parts is hard to find. Though the main point, I think Adam was sold a watch without much knowledge about it. Meaning he bought 2nd hand car without knowing how much millage it got. so much money, little brain it seems
Yeah, I had a 1973 Mach 1 Mustang. Could not get parts for the damn thing (& when I could ridiculously expensive). Decided to make a modern classic. Changed out everything with it. If I had kept is all original, is would have had a crappy 302, NASA copper paint, AM/FM radio....
I bet if anything Levine is more upset at Hodinkee for just running the video and making him look like a dummy in front of his millionaire peers. As you said, the monetary value is insignificant for him, but if there's anything blithe megawealthy people care about it's reputation and being respected and celebrated. As for whether Ben/Hodinkee knew immediately -- Iiiii dunno man. I've heard stories from the inside about how checked out Ben is for a lot of those Talking Watches shoots. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if they said nothing because Levine's supplier was referenced to him via Hodinkee or Ben himself.
I honestly think that Hodinkee should have (if they knew) notified Adam that some of the watches could have been Franken. As a reputable publisher of watch news, you almost have a duty of care to protect and INFORM your readers. I know it could lead to damaging relationships but not saying anything feels worse…
Great episode gents. I was guest on HODINKEE Radio in 2020. I started watching you two the same year. I’ve never missed an episode since. I still love HODINKEE, but I gotta say, your RUclips channel has the crown!👑
It would be cool for you guys to do a video on common problems or things to look for with vintage watch purchases/ownership. I would love to get into the vintage space, but am not sure about maintenance intervals.
Goes to show that even if you have cool tattoos, are frigging rich, are on a first name basis with Ben Clymer, you can still get a very bad deal from a dodgy vintage watch dealer. Piece of advice to the rich and famous : keep buying brand new Pateks and Rolexes from your friendly neighborhood AD, they will absolutely love you and you run zero risk of embarrassment.
I agree with you but on the point of being on a first name basis with Ben Clymer; watch fans revere that guy way too much. By all means respect him for his past work but he doesn't need his ego inflated more and it is the sort of thing that turns people off getting more into horology.
I think it is fair for Hodinkee to simply showcase ppl's collection without interfering and being an ass to point things out right in front of the person. However, it is perfectly smart to let the watch society discover and discuss. I mean these are renowned people and huge collectors and Hodinkee is a successful business so they are smart enough not to embarass or educate these ppl. if you were hodinkee and you told ppl to hold on to some pieces and only select a few, they would know something's off. "Why skip the vintage daytona that I am so proud of"?
It’s funny you mention the vitriol you can face just mentioning restoration. I had similar experience in firearms forums. I’m a collector and found a WW2 Russian battle rifle at a gun show for dirt cheap. It was inoperable and looked like someone dragged it behind their car on a highway…. No kidding, you could get splinters handling it. I sanded it, oiled the wood, reblued the metal and did a reasonable job at restoring it. I took sooooo much heat in the forums; “you ruined its history, never touch a timepiece like that” etc. fyi, this was a dime a dozen rifle. Now, it’s functional and beautiful.
A lot of watch parts available online, no way I wanna wear something same with others. Your belonging should reflect your personality. Common mindset shows lack of accountability and transparency. I rather have Frankenstein with original parts, than factory model.
Great video gentlemen. Long time lurker turned subscriber and perhaps patreon member. It's great to see Michael from the Iron Snail over here geeking on the horological side, and Christian you guys pair well for the banter. Love the Cartier and Zenith too :). Cheers from Portugal guys.
As someone who happily plays restored pianos all the time, it does seem a bit silly that this absolute fanaticism regarding original condition with vintage watches is the end-all and be-all when it comes to the ludicrous prices these pieces sometimes fetch; it really does feel like collusion amongst the auction dealers.
That’s untrue. A classic car that remains as its left the factory will be valued way higher then a restored car. You don’t want an aftermarket wheel on your F40. The only reason why car restoration is accepted is that they also need to be used. And usability will be preferred over originality. Also a car can be restored as original spec. A watch is so detailed that’s it’s next to impossible.
It is not the norm though. There are only a few people able to enter this market anyway so if you spend this amount of money for a watch ,that is highly significant for the brand in general, the least you can expect are original parts, or at least Rolex parts. Besides the real problem is the nomification I think. If you call it a newman daytona, people expect perfection. If you say it´s a newman daytona that has some service parts but was way cheaper as result - nobody would care. My guess.
I’m with you on this. What if there is transparency over the fact that it’s not original, you pay a lesser price but get something that looks and feels the same. The resell value wont be as much but then you bought it for less so it doesn’t matter
Reminds me of the guitar collecting world. I had a Strat I bought directly from Fender at NAMM that dealers tried to claim was fake. No, it was just that rare. But then I see dealers selling vintage fakes all day long.
my uncle has a gun that Beretta claimed didnt exist. They dug deeper, and not only found it was legit but also sent him parts free of charge with a message to the tune of "cool fucking gun!"
the problem with factory updated or repaired watches is the same as sending a pre-war Martin Guitar back to Martin for repairs. They change and update to current standards which is not longer the same materials used, or refinishing takes place, etc. which tanks the value.
The crazy thing is that they posted the video knowing everything that you just exposed. They humiliated the poor man for no reason. Just because they videotaped it doesn’t mean that they had to post it or they could’ve edited it or whatever.
Or at least tell the interviewed person that some of these watches are Frankenstein and if he want to continue and go ahead to show the video to a lot of people that some of them will catch these are Frankenstein…..
The days of Hodinkee being a small, independently-minded website are long gone. Today, they have outside investors. Those investors are expecting a handsome return on their investment. Adam Levine is a big name and a big draw, so if they knowingly show some fake watches owned by a mega star, that's the price you pay in the name of shareholder returns.
Two things … one, Christian is exactly who I think of when I think of Adam Levine’s music … also, as fakes go … how did Ben Clymer not spot these … at all?
Not spotting isn't the same as not stating. Hodinkee doesn't offer a validation and verification service, it's a platform for wealthy collectors to showcase their collections. If a collection includes fakes/ 'franken' watches, that's an issue between the collector and the dealer he bought it from.
Hodinkee knew exactly what they were doing, there is a rigorous process in selecting watches for Talking Watches they let this happen for the obvious reasons.
Adam bought a tool watch. Perhaps over its life it was actual worn. Banged, dropped, pushers pushed, and now rocked on stage. Exactly what a tool watch is meant for, not to pristinely sit in a safe. Parts break and need to be replaced. I think it adds to the unique story of the watch.
Once I saw Paul newman’s I was slightly worried, once he said steel day date, then they show a date just his mom has now I’m like Ope this will be fun. I mean obviously the panda dial is probably franken to all get out if not entirely fake I could see a clone modern Rolex movement inside both chronos tbh… sad Adam shout 100% take some action.
@@TheoandHarris it's all good man! I think in a recent video you said you live on Crown Heights? That's the HQ of the Chabad movement, the largest chassidic sect of Judaism in the world, which I am also a part of. I was thinking going down the rabbit hole of the rules of Kashrut but thought that was complete overkill since we are all here for watches haha, so I just wanted to point it out. But to any point, you and Christian are awesome and I love all your TNH content. I'd love to talk watches if you guys are ever in Boston or if I'm on Crown Heights, which I visit from time to time!
A terrific episode, you two! Insightful, helpful and, as always, funny and entertaining. You're great and we in the watch community greatly appreciate you! Thank you.
It's interesting, that Christian already made a video about the collection of Adam Levine in 2017 and at that point those two watches were already a part of the collection. Sure he didn't have any close shots to reveal these details, but the reaction in 2017 was an exact opposite of today. It's funny how showing too close images of your watches can get you from hero to zero (no reference to your new podcast). If he only kept posting a few photos every now and then while wearing the watches without much details, he would have been seen as a great collector with some rare pieces.
The thing I always wondered about was that can't you take the watch to the Rolex HQ for approval. You will be paying a ton of money so why not just add some more and get approval from the place that created and authorized the watch. Is that even possible? Enlighten me, please...
This would be a great idea in theory. But look at what happened with that vintage Speedmaster that went to auction recently. These brands have a hard time authenticating their own catalogs. If I’m not mistaken, Cartier recently said they can’t authenticate they’re products anymore. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
@@TheJosephhomere13you are completely wrong but brands have control to some degree sure if its half a century old watch i can’t blame the makers having a hard time but neo vintage watches should be easy to authenticate and the rolex po system can be used to accomodate the chaos in the vintage market as well
Imo hodinkee should be telling him. Would rather let someone know and sour a relationship but be honest than lie to them. Cheapens Hodinkees imagine by having Jekyll watches on the show.
Regarding the steel day date, I assumed he meant a Datejust. All in all, Frankens are completely fine. I have a heavily frankened 1675, which I bought as a non runner and brought back to life with anything I could source and to be honest even if I could afford a completely genuine example, I’d rather be open about my Franken to dive into the snake pit that is the high end vintage watch game.
Hodinkee are the experts here. They could have prevented this. Levine has every right to be mad at them. They invite him on their show and then do nothing to prevent him from being publicly humiliated. (Even the misstatement of steel daydate. They could have cut it or told him, "Hey the community is persnickety, let's film that part again to get it right.") Yes, if they raise these franken issues before filming, they might risk the entire shoot and their relationship with the person, but how do we think that relationship is NOW? If I'm Levine, I'd never talk to Hodinkee again and I'd tell others not to do so either. They prioritized clicks and views over that relationship, but it may blow back on them when lots of other people refuse to come on the show because they see how willing Hodinkee is to treat them as clickbait, not collectors.
A Rolex with non original parts is not a fake like you keep saying. Relumed dials is common on these watches, did I miss the part in the episode that Adam said the watch was not relumed? The big question here is did Adam get told everything is original to the watch and paid top dollar? Or did someone help him when he bought and said ok this, this and this isn't original so the watch is worth $70k less the a super mint one.
I'd personally say fake if the watches were presented as all original. Even if only one part was not original, the integrity of the whole watch is compromised because of the non disclosure.
Good video lads. I think there's always a pretty good chance that the dealer said yeah I've got this model but it has aftermarket pushers/bezel and Adam was like "I'm not a giant nerd, I don't care" and that was that. Which to me is fine, as long as he didn't pay for a 100% OG watch.
I doubt the bezel theory as if doing a "talking watches" wouldn't you want the correct bezel for that shoot??( put in replacement when photo shoot is over) That being said I think Adam is most likely a victim and I bet his dealer is nervous right now.
i agree with this tbh. Reminds me of the one Nico got sent (i think YG Submariner) and it was a fake, he was really worried for the guy but it turned out the guy had the real one in the safe and accidentally sold his fake decoy watch haha
At the end of the day, it's difficult to judge the situation without knowing how the transaction went down. For someone like Adam who's mega-rich and probably just gets the vintage Daytona because it looks good, it's perfectly fine to have some replacement parts imo even if they're not correct. Obviously if he way overpaid and it was sold as all original that's a big problem. At the end of the day still a really cool watch even without the correct bezel and pushers.
What are your guys' thoughts on INTENTIONAL frankens? For example. I LOVE Ranger-style hands. And i would have no qualms throwing them on an explorer(if i owned one). I mean ... if youre building up a watch from found pieces, and you are building what you want, and are honest about what it is, because its what YOU want. If youre honest its a mod, is it a problem, in your eyes?
The way you things shifted to understanding/leeway to wearing fake watches is where I can’t understand paying more for vintage watches. I would prefer to still wear tool watches under 10k usd. Luxurious enough to feel right on the wrist (especially how light titanium is) and you feel better knowing you can get it replaced if something bad happens. Which is why I like the BB58 and think that 3-5k as the ideal tool watch price range.
In that episode Adam said his first Rolex was a Stainless Steel Day date. They never made that watch in stainless steel. We knew then he knew nothing about watches.
There is nothing wrong with having a hand on or in it if your comment is accurate and correct. I am not a vintage expert. I have two vintage watches and know they are real because it was handed down and I know where they were bought and the history. I think that is really the only way to accurately know what is real and what is not. Also, helps if you have a watch maker with abundant amount of experience.
@@SpilkersKompass yeah rolexpassionreport has an ulterior motive being linked with auction houses and is friendly with Hodinkee. Perezscope is independent.
The argument does hodinkee knows or not, I believe it was intended do that, so that everybody talks about it, and people will search it and watch the video. Hence get alot of views.
Ben asking if the rare Porsche is real, real Porsche is a sign he was skeptical about the watches. His sigh of relief when hearing at least he knows the bronco is a restomod is a bigger relief
Well I think this is a Daytona 6263 with a MK I.75 dial. I don't think that this is fake as the lume burned beautifully into the dial. The same was sold by Sotheby in June. And they should probably know!?
Not incredibly versed in vintage, but so long as the parts are Rolex parts and were updated by a RSC, I dont see the issue even if they are not period correct. I get them being less valuable, but not fake. I guess the question is, are the replacement parts genuine? My 1603 has a service dial with a lume that didn't exist when the watch was released, all done by an RSC. Would you consider that a franken?
My Question is Adam got ripped off, Not his fault. He is talking about reasons of why he acquired those things and the story behind them. Can we just let things be rather than searching for perfection in everything?
The Oyster Super Steel DayDate! Haha! Great vid with good analysis yet still hilarious. Ben should have used JJ Abrams’ lens flares, jump cut edits, or Christian’s idea to agree before hand to the watches discussed. After that interview, Ben was out the door and Adam heard crickets!
I’m Dutch and we would just have told him wat is wrong with the watches, honesty works best, always, if they have scammed you, you wanna know that. Hodinkee should have told him wat is wrong and don’t show these watches.
What exactly is the problem with an authentic vintage Rolex that has had parts replaced over the years? At no point in the Hodinkee piece did Adam Levine say this watch is 100% all original, who cares? I get it, I fell into the click bait here as well but more out of being a fan of watches. This isn't any different than restoring a vintage car, very few cars have 100% original OEM or NOS parts VERY few. Those few that do go out of the way to indicate it, so the majority of cars you see going through auction houses have a lot of aftermarket or replica parts, or original parts that wouldn't have came with that year or specific model, it doesn't make a restored car FAKE.
The watches shown on talking watches was prob Adam’s entire collection (or at least the pieces that he’s most proud of) and for Hodinkee, Adam is one the biggest celebrities to be on their site. Even if they had known, there would be no way Hodinkee would say to him, hey don’t show those watches bc it’s fake
It’s not uncommon for fake Rolex watches to have been retrofit with original Rolex parts like a crown and tube, pushers, dial, crystal, and other components to head fake short looks at one to fool many into believing it is getting genuine Rolex. The fakes that are made just like Rolex copying the movement still have identifiers like movement plating quality and shine, crown etching perfection off, Rolex crown on the dial show being off, dial pad printing of Rolex logo characters being off to how Rolex print them, which has evolved over the decades and can be studied. Shop at authorized Rolex dealers to carefully inspect your watch of interest in your hands, be familiar with the feel, wind it with the crown, set the time and change the date, stare at them in the display cases for long periods before going to an unauthorized seller.
So I re-watched the talking watches episode. I think there was some intentional edited done after the whole oyster day date debacle. It was a date just, Adam said that he gave that watch to his mother, and right after that statement, there's a photo of his mom wearing the watch he's referencing. Definitely a date just.. I feel like that was Hodinkee doing a little credibility save to both Adam and them. To Michael's point, he's not a watch guy and when the cameras are in your face he's bound to get some of the details wrong. Anyone who has ever been to a RedBar meetup has had this happen to them in front of a group, so I can cut him some slack there. The daytonas though... yikes, more so on Hodinkee's part... especially when Ben acknowledged that he's aware of his collection though various outlets.
Adam clearly trusts anyone he does business with and does not do enough research. The exact same thing happened to him a few years ago when he bought a classic Maserati Ghibli spider for over a million
In the developing world, it’s difficult to get the parts for models that are no longer in production. There are genuine Rolex buyers who’s watches became franken pieces as an expedient servicing option. They still hold a decent resell value but the international market is going wild so those buyers are going to expect more but frankly - they’re the ones getting screwed.
If one were to franken a Datejust case with the innards and stem of a DayDate, I'd shit bricks. Has to be totally authentic parts though, otherwise it misses the point.
At what point does a watch become a fake? if the pushers were replaced during a repair with Rolex pushers that were available at the time of repair, is that watch now a fake? Or does a watch need to have all of its original parts it had when it left the factory? How would you know, the individual parts are not serialized. The high $$ vintage watch game is a big gamble.
Just like the gazillian faded and ghost bezels and tropical and panna cotta dials etc that suddenly started popping up and fetching massive premiums. I just don’t trust them😄 Aged and faded is nice, but not worth it if you’re paying 10k extra for a bleached bezel or one that was put out in UV light for a few weeks.
You’re creating a false dilemma where there is none. Just tell the person that their watch may be fake and that they should consult an independent watch expert for their opinion. Most people would appreciate that. What they won’t appreciate is your silence and letting them look like fool with a fake watch.
Part of me thinks Adam bought those watches early in his career before he was mega rich and bought those watches at a discount since they are frankens. If he knows they are or aren't-we'll never know
Big fan of Theo and Harris love eveything you do, is there any chance of a video on golf watches specifically Phil Mickelson’s watches. I have started wearing a watch on course and would love to see some content on this. Keep up the great content 🙏🏻🙏🏻
In their last video Christian specifically talked about how mechanical watches are not always suited for the golf course. Even newer sport models. Lots of shock that's not great for the movement. Not trying to harsh your buzz, just lookin out!
Wow! I’m just getting into this hobby, and I’m amazed at the complexities of some of these issues. I can’t imagine the fear of spending a lot of money on a vintage watch. It would be really nice if the perpetrators of these scams were exposed heavily. If there were consequences outside of back room legal agreements for the very odd time they were caught, then maybe it would further incentivize honest behavior and dissuade fraudulent sales. Name and shame em! By the way, I agree that Adam himself is more than likely innocent and ignorant to it. Or else why would he bring them on camera with Ben to begin with. I suppose you never know though. Love the content guys!
It would been hilarious if Adam's response was," ...but I trusted Anthony."
lmfao
You have won the internet! Lol!
Zing!
RIP Adam’s dealer.
And we all want to know who that is.....
@@mdtellwho?
Anthony Farrer
@@kraitshaktinice, source?
was it a guy they call the wizard ??
I don't agree with the suggestion that Hodinkee should select the watches featured beforehand. Hodinkee is already so heavily manicured and lifeless. I appreciate the few occasions when they step back and let a collector share what they choose to share, and tell the stories they choose to tell. Occasionally, something interesting happens... like what we are seeing with Adam's collection.
I think that's a good point. Also, it's the watch collection. It is the collection. Good or bad. We like watches and I think we also like the stories told by the guests in the interview.
Okay so the references I've heard of hodinkee are true they're quite shadey and sketchy
@@justinfletcher7630 they are a business, the bigger they get the more and more it becomes about the money. Then the shady shit increases more and more
That was a horrible episode. Adam didn't know what he was talking about and his watch collection was as interesting as his tattoo collection.
the dude is as shallow as it gets. Didn't even write his own songs. Have you seen how he flirt? the guy is nothing but an angelic voice covered with tattoos. Feed him lines and he'll say whatever you want. Sell him some stuff, he'll buy it for sure
I'm not big on Maroon 5, and I'm not big on that collection, and sure, the episode wasn't that good....
I've got nothing left to add
His tattoos really all look like a bunch of fake decal ones that he got in one sitting...
was literally a "oh we found a guy with some watches" not "oh we found a watch guy"
@@drsrsv8884 I mean, I have videos on my channel so you can comment on all my Invictas.
The Oyster Steel Daydate will forever be known as the Adam Levine 😂
Your dynamic absolutely makes this show. I watch a lot of watch content, and I enjoy you two the most. Keep killing it!
In Ben’s interview with Wei Koh several years back he said that he now only collects modern watches. He gave some wishy washy reasons why, but it was probably really because he saw too many shady things happening in the vintage world
Yeah, he only buys original owner now he said
Putting this in vintage car terms.
Dudes don’t have a problem at all telling another dude they have an issue with a wheel or engine cover or door handle. I say call it out as soon as you see it. People ultimately respect honesty, even if it’s uncomfortable.
Yeah, wouldnt be shocked if Ben told him
Yes
Agreed. If I had a watch that turned out to be a franken or fake I'd rather know so I could do something about it.
yep2. there's a reason why stock, totally stock vintage cars cost more money than their brothers who got their wheels changed. and vintage parts is hard to find. Though the main point, I think Adam was sold a watch without much knowledge about it. Meaning he bought 2nd hand car without knowing how much millage it got. so much money, little brain it seems
Yeah, I had a 1973 Mach 1 Mustang. Could not get parts for the damn thing (& when I could ridiculously expensive). Decided to make a modern classic. Changed out everything with it. If I had kept is all original, is would have had a crappy 302, NASA copper paint, AM/FM radio....
I bet if anything Levine is more upset at Hodinkee for just running the video and making him look like a dummy in front of his millionaire peers. As you said, the monetary value is insignificant for him, but if there's anything blithe megawealthy people care about it's reputation and being respected and celebrated.
As for whether Ben/Hodinkee knew immediately -- Iiiii dunno man. I've heard stories from the inside about how checked out Ben is for a lot of those Talking Watches shoots. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if they said nothing because Levine's supplier was referenced to him via Hodinkee or Ben himself.
Bro Ben 100% knew, his face the whole video is like ‘man, what the fuck?’
I honestly think that Hodinkee should have (if they knew) notified Adam that some of the watches could have been Franken. As a reputable publisher of watch news, you almost have a duty of care to protect and INFORM your readers.
I know it could lead to damaging relationships but not saying anything feels worse…
Hodinkee has questionable motives as is
Great episode gents. I was guest on HODINKEE Radio in 2020. I started watching you two the same year. I’ve never missed an episode since. I still love HODINKEE, but I gotta say, your RUclips channel has the crown!👑
A great guest you were! These guys are crushing it.
It would be cool for you guys to do a video on common problems or things to look for with vintage watch purchases/ownership. I would love to get into the vintage space, but am not sure about maintenance intervals.
Goes to show that even if you have cool tattoos, are frigging rich, are on a first name basis with Ben Clymer, you can still get a very bad deal from a dodgy vintage watch dealer.
Piece of advice to the rich and famous : keep buying brand new Pateks and Rolexes from your friendly neighborhood AD, they will absolutely love you and you run zero risk of embarrassment.
I agree with you but on the point of being on a first name basis with Ben Clymer; watch fans revere that guy way too much. By all means respect him for his past work but he doesn't need his ego inflated more and it is the sort of thing that turns people off getting more into horology.
If he paid market value for non complete original watches, is it being taken advantage of?
I think it is fair for Hodinkee to simply showcase ppl's collection without interfering and being an ass to point things out right in front of the person. However, it is perfectly smart to let the watch society discover and discuss. I mean these are renowned people and huge collectors and Hodinkee is a successful business so they are smart enough not to embarass or educate these ppl. if you were hodinkee and you told ppl to hold on to some pieces and only select a few, they would know something's off. "Why skip the vintage daytona that I am so proud of"?
It’s funny you mention the vitriol you can face just mentioning restoration. I had similar experience in firearms forums. I’m a collector and found a WW2 Russian battle rifle at a gun show for dirt cheap. It was inoperable and looked like someone dragged it behind their car on a highway…. No kidding, you could get splinters handling it. I sanded it, oiled the wood, reblued the metal and did a reasonable job at restoring it. I took sooooo much heat in the forums; “you ruined its history, never touch a timepiece like that” etc. fyi, this was a dime a dozen rifle. Now, it’s functional and beautiful.
A lot of watch parts available online, no way I wanna wear something same with others. Your belonging should reflect your personality. Common mindset shows lack of accountability and transparency. I rather have Frankenstein with original parts, than factory model.
Anyone know where Christian got that shirt? I want one like that for my upcoming vacation
Solid episode guys! Perfectly articulated
Great video gentlemen. Long time lurker turned subscriber and perhaps patreon member. It's great to see Michael from the Iron Snail over here geeking on the horological side, and Christian you guys pair well for the banter. Love the Cartier and Zenith too :). Cheers from Portugal guys.
Still blows my mind that the Classic car industry allows things to be restored and the watch industry calls these things a pile of crap.
As someone who happily plays restored pianos all the time, it does seem a bit silly that this absolute fanaticism regarding original condition with vintage watches is the end-all and be-all when it comes to the ludicrous prices these pieces sometimes fetch; it really does feel like collusion amongst the auction dealers.
That’s untrue. A classic car that remains as its left the factory will be valued way higher then a restored car. You don’t want an aftermarket wheel on your F40.
The only reason why car restoration is accepted is that they also need to be used. And usability will be preferred over originality. Also a car can be restored as original spec. A watch is so detailed that’s it’s next to impossible.
The dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
It is not the norm though. There are only a few people able to enter this market anyway so if you spend this amount of money for a watch ,that is highly significant for the brand in general, the least you can expect are original parts, or at least Rolex parts. Besides the real problem is the nomification I think. If you call it a newman daytona, people expect perfection. If you say it´s a newman daytona that has some service parts but was way cheaper as result - nobody would care. My guess.
I’m with you on this. What if there is transparency over the fact that it’s not original, you pay a lesser price but get something that looks and feels the same. The resell value wont be as much but then you bought it for less so it doesn’t matter
Best episode in a while guys! Keep it up
Reminds me of the guitar collecting world. I had a Strat I bought directly from Fender at NAMM that dealers tried to claim was fake. No, it was just that rare. But then I see dealers selling vintage fakes all day long.
my uncle has a gun that Beretta claimed didnt exist. They dug deeper, and not only found it was legit but also sent him parts free of charge with a message to the tune of "cool fucking gun!"
the problem with factory updated or repaired watches is the same as sending a pre-war Martin Guitar back to Martin for repairs. They change and update to current standards which is not longer the same materials used, or refinishing takes place, etc. which tanks the value.
This popped up right after I finished the hodinkee episode lol Love the content per usual guys ❤
The crazy thing is that they posted the video knowing everything that you just exposed. They humiliated the poor man for no reason. Just because they videotaped it doesn’t mean that they had to post it or they could’ve edited it or whatever.
Or at least tell the interviewed person that some of these watches are Frankenstein and if he want to continue and go ahead to show the video to a lot of people that some of them will catch these are Frankenstein…..
The days of Hodinkee being a small, independently-minded website are long gone. Today, they have outside investors. Those investors are expecting a handsome return on their investment. Adam Levine is a big name and a big draw, so if they knowingly show some fake watches owned by a mega star, that's the price you pay in the name of shareholder returns.
Fraud is only there when there is deception involved. It's quite possible Adam was informed that the watches where serviced with replacement parts.
Totally this!
Two things … one, Christian is exactly who I think of when I think of Adam Levine’s music … also, as fakes go … how did Ben Clymer not spot these … at all?
It shocks me too. I don’t see how it’s possible. I’m curious to see how the facts unfold.
Not spotting isn't the same as not stating. Hodinkee doesn't offer a validation and verification service, it's a platform for wealthy collectors to showcase their collections. If a collection includes fakes/ 'franken' watches, that's an issue between the collector and the dealer he bought it from.
Hodinkee knew exactly what they were doing, there is a rigorous process in selecting watches for Talking Watches they let this happen for the obvious reasons.
Sometimes is better to let people live in a lie than the truth. Some people as sad as it sounds prefer that.
Adam bought a tool watch. Perhaps over its life it was actual worn. Banged, dropped, pushers pushed, and now rocked on stage. Exactly what a tool watch is meant for, not to pristinely sit in a safe. Parts break and need to be replaced. I think it adds to the unique story of the watch.
Once I saw Paul newman’s I was slightly worried, once he said steel day date, then they show a date just his mom has now I’m like Ope this will be fun. I mean obviously the panda dial is probably franken to all get out if not entirely fake I could see a clone modern Rolex movement inside both chronos tbh… sad Adam shout 100% take some action.
As an Orthodox Jew, I'm obligated to tell you fine people that kosher doesn't mean it was blessed by rabbis.
I, Michael, did not know this and I’m forever thankful for you making me sound less uninformed
@@TheoandHarris it's all good man! I think in a recent video you said you live on Crown Heights? That's the HQ of the Chabad movement, the largest chassidic sect of Judaism in the world, which I am also a part of. I was thinking going down the rabbit hole of the rules of Kashrut but thought that was complete overkill since we are all here for watches haha, so I just wanted to point it out. But to any point, you and Christian are awesome and I love all your TNH content. I'd love to talk watches if you guys are ever in Boston or if I'm on Crown Heights, which I visit from time to time!
A terrific episode, you two! Insightful, helpful and, as always, funny and entertaining. You're great and we in the watch community greatly appreciate you! Thank you.
I noticed on the intro clip my Vacheron & Constantin that I bought from you guys last year. Glad it made the cut for your video.
It's interesting, that Christian already made a video about the collection of Adam Levine in 2017 and at that point those two watches were already a part of the collection. Sure he didn't have any close shots to reveal these details, but the reaction in 2017 was an exact opposite of today.
It's funny how showing too close images of your watches can get you from hero to zero (no reference to your new podcast).
If he only kept posting a few photos every now and then while wearing the watches without much details, he would have been seen as a great collector with some rare pieces.
I'm not a watch expert by any means, but even I called out those pushers on that Rolex when I watched that Hodinkee video.
The thing I always wondered about was that can't you take the watch to the Rolex HQ for approval. You will be paying a ton of money so why not just add some more and get approval from the place that created and authorized the watch. Is that even possible? Enlighten me, please...
This would be a great idea in theory. But look at what happened with that vintage Speedmaster that went to auction recently. These brands have a hard time authenticating their own catalogs. If I’m not mistaken, Cartier recently said they can’t authenticate they’re products anymore. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
@@TheJosephhomere13you are completely wrong but brands have control to some degree sure if its half a century old watch i can’t blame the makers having a hard time but neo vintage watches should be easy to authenticate and the rolex po system can be used to accomodate the chaos in the vintage market as well
Imo hodinkee should be telling him. Would rather let someone know and sour a relationship but be honest than lie to them. Cheapens Hodinkees imagine by having Jekyll watches on the show.
Regarding the steel day date, I assumed he meant a Datejust.
All in all, Frankens are completely fine. I have a heavily frankened 1675, which I bought as a non runner and brought back to life with anything I could source and to be honest even if I could afford a completely genuine example, I’d rather be open about my Franken to dive into the snake pit that is the high end vintage watch game.
Hodinkee are the experts here. They could have prevented this. Levine has every right to be mad at them. They invite him on their show and then do nothing to prevent him from being publicly humiliated. (Even the misstatement of steel daydate. They could have cut it or told him, "Hey the community is persnickety, let's film that part again to get it right.") Yes, if they raise these franken issues before filming, they might risk the entire shoot and their relationship with the person, but how do we think that relationship is NOW? If I'm Levine, I'd never talk to Hodinkee again and I'd tell others not to do so either. They prioritized clicks and views over that relationship, but it may blow back on them when lots of other people refuse to come on the show because they see how willing Hodinkee is to treat them as clickbait, not collectors.
A Rolex with non original parts is not a fake like you keep saying. Relumed dials is common on these watches, did I miss the part in the episode that Adam said the watch was not relumed?
The big question here is did Adam get told everything is original to the watch and paid top dollar? Or did someone help him when he bought and said ok this, this and this isn't original so the watch is worth $70k less the a super mint one.
Relume a pre-ceramic Sub? fine, but shame on the watch engineer that relumed a Paul Newman....
I'd personally say fake if the watches were presented as all original. Even if only one part was not original, the integrity of the whole watch is compromised because of the non disclosure.
A Rolex with non original parts is no longer 'original' and should be disclosed as such.
Good video lads.
I think there's always a pretty good chance that the dealer said yeah I've got this model but it has aftermarket pushers/bezel and Adam was like "I'm not a giant nerd, I don't care" and that was that. Which to me is fine, as long as he didn't pay for a 100% OG watch.
I doubt the bezel theory as if doing a "talking watches" wouldn't you want the correct bezel for that shoot??( put in replacement when photo shoot is over) That being said I think Adam is most likely a victim and I bet his dealer is nervous right now.
i agree with this tbh. Reminds me of the one Nico got sent (i think YG Submariner) and it was a fake, he was really worried for the guy but it turned out the guy had the real one in the safe and accidentally sold his fake decoy watch haha
What’s the size of Christian’s Cartier ? 29mm?
Tim Write had a great episode and interview with Jose of perezcope, the one that noticed the issues on the watch
Levine also had to sue someone for selling him a fake million dollar Alfa Romeo...
At the end of the day, it's difficult to judge the situation without knowing how the transaction went down. For someone like Adam who's mega-rich and probably just gets the vintage Daytona because it looks good, it's perfectly fine to have some replacement parts imo even if they're not correct. Obviously if he way overpaid and it was sold as all original that's a big problem. At the end of the day still a really cool watch even without the correct bezel and pushers.
My question is this: If I had a part or parts changed on a vintage Timex, would people have the same outrage?
Re: 22:00 - I think he clearly meant Oyster bracelet, steel (not TT), Datejust - because that's how you talk about Datejusts.
I knew he'd never recover from the stainless day date fiasco
What is that gold watch on the wrist ? It looks really nice
What are your guys' thoughts on INTENTIONAL frankens? For example. I LOVE Ranger-style hands. And i would have no qualms throwing them on an explorer(if i owned one). I mean ... if youre building up a watch from found pieces, and you are building what you want, and are honest about what it is, because its what YOU want. If youre honest its a mod, is it a problem, in your eyes?
The way you things shifted to understanding/leeway to wearing fake watches is where I can’t understand paying more for vintage watches. I would prefer to still wear tool watches under 10k usd. Luxurious enough to feel right on the wrist (especially how light titanium is) and you feel better knowing you can get it replaced if something bad happens. Which is why I like the BB58 and think that 3-5k as the ideal tool watch price range.
In that episode Adam said his first Rolex was a Stainless Steel Day date. They never made that watch in stainless steel. We knew then he knew nothing about watches.
There is nothing wrong with having a hand on or in it if your comment is accurate and correct. I am not a vintage expert. I have two vintage watches and know they are real because it was handed down and I know where they were bought and the history. I think that is really the only way to accurately know what is real and what is not. Also, helps if you have a watch maker with abundant amount of experience.
Highly enjoyable. Thank you guys.
The supposed Rolex “expert” is Philipp Stahl aka rolexpassionreport
I’d say Tom Bolt was more of an expert 🤙🏻
That’s what came to my mind as well. Philipp responded quite aggressively to the allegations.
@@SpilkersKompass yeah rolexpassionreport has an ulterior motive being linked with auction houses and is friendly with Hodinkee. Perezscope is independent.
Novice watch guy. Algo fed this to me. You guys are great. Thought it was a great vid. Keep it up!
13:29 what quote is this from its so familiar
I strive to someday develop the rich/pretentious people banter that you guys throw out. I laugh out loud literally every episode 🤣
I love this video. Honesty is the best policy always.
What is the brand of Christian's shirt.
Gabagool
‘Grandpa Joes’
Late 1950’s early 1960’s suburban Dad
Charlie Sheen. Two and Half men.
That’s what I wanna know too!
What is the ceramic watch he is wearing here?
The argument does hodinkee knows or not, I believe it was intended do that, so that everybody talks about it, and people will search it and watch the video. Hence get alot of views.
Isn’t Zenith pronounced Zeeenith? Like the TV or like the summit of a mountain? Zenith and Nadir? High and low?
Ben asking if the rare Porsche is real, real Porsche is a sign he was skeptical about the watches. His sigh of relief when hearing at least he knows the bronco is a restomod is a bigger relief
Well I think this is a Daytona 6263 with a MK I.75 dial. I don't think that this is fake as the lume burned beautifully into the dial. The same was sold by Sotheby in June. And they should probably know!?
Not incredibly versed in vintage, but so long as the parts are Rolex parts and were updated by a RSC, I dont see the issue even if they are not period correct. I get them being less valuable, but not fake. I guess the question is, are the replacement parts genuine?
My 1603 has a service dial with a lume that didn't exist when the watch was released, all done by an RSC. Would you consider that a franken?
Not a fake but a Frankenstein for sure
My Question is Adam got ripped off, Not his fault. He is talking about reasons of why he acquired those things and the story behind them. Can we just let things be rather than searching for perfection in everything?
The Oyster Super Steel DayDate! Haha!
Great vid with good analysis yet still hilarious.
Ben should have used JJ Abrams’ lens flares, jump cut edits, or Christian’s idea to agree before hand to the watches discussed. After that interview, Ben was out the door and Adam heard crickets!
I’m Dutch and we would just have told him wat is wrong with the watches, honesty works best, always, if they have scammed you, you wanna know that. Hodinkee should have told him wat is wrong and don’t show these watches.
What exactly is the problem with an authentic vintage Rolex that has had parts replaced over the years? At no point in the Hodinkee piece did Adam Levine say this watch is 100% all original, who cares? I get it, I fell into the click bait here as well but more out of being a fan of watches. This isn't any different than restoring a vintage car, very few cars have 100% original OEM or NOS parts VERY few. Those few that do go out of the way to indicate it, so the majority of cars you see going through auction houses have a lot of aftermarket or replica parts, or original parts that wouldn't have came with that year or specific model, it doesn't make a restored car FAKE.
Love your channel boys, keep it up .
Yes but we don't know what was paid for those pieces. They could have been discounted for the non original parts
Loved this show. I don't usually engage with your content - I guess you grew on me. This was topical and well done.
The watches shown on talking watches was prob Adam’s entire collection (or at least the pieces that he’s most proud of) and for Hodinkee, Adam is one the biggest celebrities to be on their site.
Even if they had known, there would be no way Hodinkee would say to him, hey don’t show those watches bc it’s fake
Damn, man. Those pushers are glaring. I’m not even into Daytonas, and I found those pushers jarring and questionable.
I love the way you both approach a topic! Absolutely entertaining... Keep up the good work!
It’s not uncommon for fake Rolex watches to have been retrofit with original Rolex parts like a crown and tube, pushers, dial, crystal, and other components to head fake short looks at one to fool many into believing it is getting genuine Rolex. The fakes that are made just like Rolex copying the movement still have identifiers like movement plating quality and shine, crown etching perfection off, Rolex crown on the dial show being off, dial pad printing of Rolex logo characters being off to how Rolex print them, which has evolved over the decades and can be studied. Shop at authorized Rolex dealers to carefully inspect your watch of interest in your hands, be familiar with the feel, wind it with the crown, set the time and change the date, stare at them in the display cases for long periods before going to an unauthorized seller.
They could've said" hey we are editing the video and noticed the watch may not be correct. Do you still want to show the watch?"
So I re-watched the talking watches episode. I think there was some intentional edited done after the whole oyster day date debacle. It was a date just, Adam said that he gave that watch to his mother, and right after that statement, there's a photo of his mom wearing the watch he's referencing. Definitely a date just.. I feel like that was Hodinkee doing a little credibility save to both Adam and them. To Michael's point, he's not a watch guy and when the cameras are in your face he's bound to get some of the details wrong. Anyone who has ever been to a RedBar meetup has had this happen to them in front of a group, so I can cut him some slack there. The daytonas though... yikes, more so on Hodinkee's part... especially when Ben acknowledged that he's aware of his collection though various outlets.
Adam clearly trusts anyone he does business with and does not do enough research. The exact same thing happened to him a few years ago when he bought a classic Maserati Ghibli spider for over a million
You present a necessary side of the watch business, ie nefarious things people do as participants in the business.
In the developing world, it’s difficult to get the parts for models that are no longer in production. There are genuine Rolex buyers who’s watches became franken pieces as an expedient servicing option.
They still hold a decent resell value but the international market is going wild so those buyers are going to expect more but frankly - they’re the ones getting screwed.
If one were to franken a Datejust case with the innards and stem of a DayDate, I'd shit bricks. Has to be totally authentic parts though, otherwise it misses the point.
Amazing episode🔥🔥🔥
13:34 what is Tory Fell?
Tour Eiffel! Eiffel Tower!
@TheoandHarris thanks for the response! Keep up the great work, I love it when you guys goof on each other and just roll with it.
If Hodinkee tell him before the interview he will simply won’t do the interview. It is a difficult situation for both of them.
At what point does a watch become a fake? if the pushers were replaced during a repair with Rolex pushers that were available at the time of repair, is that watch now a fake? Or does a watch need to have all of its original parts it had when it left the factory? How would you know, the individual parts are not serialized. The high $$ vintage watch game is a big gamble.
Just like the gazillian faded and ghost bezels and tropical and panna cotta dials etc that suddenly started popping up and fetching massive premiums. I just don’t trust them😄
Aged and faded is nice, but not worth it if you’re paying 10k extra for a bleached bezel or one that was put out in UV light for a few weeks.
You’re creating a false dilemma where there is none. Just tell the person that their watch may be fake and that they should consult an independent watch expert for their opinion. Most people would appreciate that. What they won’t appreciate is your silence and letting them look like fool with a fake watch.
Part of me thinks Adam bought those watches early in his career before he was mega rich and bought those watches at a discount since they are frankens. If he knows they are or aren't-we'll never know
Excellent discussion. Enjoyed this very much. Thank you.
On the other hand: where is the line? They had Talking watches with guys like John Goldberger or FHB... Would be weird to just show "4" watches.
Big fan of Theo and Harris love eveything you do, is there any chance of a video on golf watches specifically Phil Mickelson’s watches. I have started wearing a watch on course and would love to see some content on this. Keep up the great content 🙏🏻🙏🏻
In their last video Christian specifically talked about how mechanical watches are not always suited for the golf course. Even newer sport models. Lots of shock that's not great for the movement. Not trying to harsh your buzz, just lookin out!
Finally Christian dresses like an Italian
Awesome job guys!!
Wow! I’m just getting into this hobby, and I’m amazed at the complexities of some of these issues. I can’t imagine the fear of spending a lot of money on a vintage watch. It would be really nice if the perpetrators of these scams were exposed heavily. If there were consequences outside of back room legal agreements for the very odd time they were caught, then maybe it would further incentivize honest behavior and dissuade fraudulent sales. Name and shame em! By the way, I agree that Adam himself is more than likely innocent and ignorant to it. Or else why would he bring them on camera with Ben to begin with. I suppose you never know though. Love the content guys!
Dude. You are talking to the biggest scam lord himself 😂
4K high def RUclips videos are the Italian vintage grey dealers worst enemy. Lmao 😂
Excellent episode.