Is sin just ignorance?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- "Why do we fall from the blessed state of freedom into this imprisonment of what we call 'life'? It isn't Life! It's death by self imposed imprisonment. It is ignorance of our true identity. We look down instead of up."
This is the first in a new series of 8 conversations with John and Phil:
#1 Is sin just ignorance?
#2 The Comfort of Job
#3 The Causal Realm
#4 Why do we suffer?
#5 Pure and Simple
#6 What's the matter with books?
#7 Unreal to Real
#8 Reach for the stars
You can watch the whole series now in the 'To Make Whole Be Whole' members section:
• 'Pure and Simple' - ne...
John's latest book 'Mystic Love' is now available here - spiritualunfol....
Producer: Phil Shankland, InSight New Media Productions Ltd
insightnewmedi...
Location: Friends Meeting House, Bakewell, UK.
Date: April, 2024
Copyright: Spiritual Unfoldment Trust 2024
Title design: Wendy Mayes Design
www.wendymayes...
Music: Dan Phillipson - 'Thoughts resolve' (under license)
John's latest book 'Mystic Love' is now available here - spiritualunfol...
You can watch 80+ ad-free videos with John in the "Feet on the Ground' supporters section. Join here - / @spiritualunfoldment .
Those wanting more detailed accounts of John's life experience - the formative influences, which have taught and made him what he is, will find it in his 8 published books, available through the website: spiritualunfol....
Did you know you can now listen to John on Spotify and other audio platforms? Here is his most popular recording 'Common sense guide to meditation' (1m views) - ffm.to/commons....
FREE 86pp PDF 'Introducing Spiritual Unfoldment'
With tempting extracts describing his life-long spiritual journey - in the hope they will encourage readers to go further, buy his books and read the whole story for themselves, we invite you to join John Butler's email community and receive a free 86-page PDF 'Introducing Spiritual Unfoldment'. Go to spiritualunfold... and scroll to the bottom of any page.
Those who wish to support the Work of the Spiritual Unfoldment Trust can donate here - www.paypal.com...
Find out more about the the Spiritual Unfoldment Trust: spiritualunfol...
Disclaimer: spiritualunfol...
![Who Wrote a Short Story That Seriously Disturbed a Teacher? | Dirty Laundry x Smosh [Full Episode]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bvHAy_rKoEI/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh man, the boys are back ! Is like reuniting with old friends, big smile, nice memories and great expectations. Wonderful, welcome back Phil
Sheesh ... thanks guys. Phil
@SpiritualUnfoldment oh Phil Welcome home, in the Kindest possible way it feels like a comfy pair of slippers the original OG's!!
You two have helped me so much back from 2018 when my Dad died, my silent friend holding my hand..love, love, love..
You did a video where you had a group of people and you all sang " "how great thou art"
I cried happy tears, My dad was part of the choir this was his song
❤❤ Much love from Ireland
John and Phil in the old favorite spot. This is fantastic and I’m glad to see it. Wish you both well
Thanks! Phil
When John smiles the whole world smiles with him.
So great to see the band back together!!
Cheers Zach. Phil
whats the band? john, phil and ....ah yes! ALL SAINTS!
PHIL'S BACK!!!!!! Massive W! Was sad when he stopped showing up. I like the dynamic he brings
Thanks - it’s nice to be missed 😊 Phil
So glad you and Phil back in bakewell. You two gents have done more than you will ever know and have been such a positive impact on so many peoples lives the last few years. Thank you.
Thanks so much Jake - I’ll take that 🙏 Phil
Three and a half years since I started watching this channel have passed like a blink of an eye, but still, this feels like coming home after a long journey
Nice. Phil
I started watching these videos during the pandemic. This is was always very comforting and insightful. I began to really feel at peace with myself hearing John speak the way he does. I'm glad that we have gathered again.
Bless 🙏 Phil
YES YES YESSSS! The boys are back! Thanks so much Phil. Great to have you back!
Thanks! More to come. You can watch them now in the “to make whole be whole“ section. Phil
This is like coming Om. Thank you!
Namaste. Phil
This is my absolute favourite format, nothing brings me more peace than a conversation between John and Phil . Peace be among you all.
Peace to you my friend. Phil
So lovely to see you back in the original surroundings where it all started ~ so grateful for your both 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Gracias. Phil
Back where it all began! So happy 🙂
Cheers. Phil
Yes, it was a dreadful error to move away from this wonderful format. Thank you for this.
A real pleasure to see this - Thank you, Kindly.
You’re welcome. Phil
Truly wonderful to have you both back again.
God Bless
Full Gratitude to be back with you both again, as the "old time"😇,
Blessed John🙏💚 and dear Phil❤️. so much Love and beautiful Presence🙏💝
Thank you so much 🙏 Phil
These videos have helped me more than even i can understand. There’s something really reassuring about two men older than me talking about life, it makes me feel like things might turn out ok.
I have the rest of my life ahead of me, and these videos make me want to live that life to the fullest.
Lovely message - appreciated. Pure & Simple
ruclips.net/p/PL_TtBqRWu4B-GHijmwCviIQfJ1esbcmhV. Phil
❤️❤️❤️thank you for this!
So good to be back here❤️
Great to see you both. Thanks for taking the time to put yet another quality recording together. I love John’s spacious message ❤
YAY!!!! I adore you guys, John & Phil. This video with the two of you together again has made me feel comfort & eased my anxieties. Ty ❤❤
I live a different spiritual practice than John, so sometimes the topic doesn't even apply to my beliefs, yet I love hearing his perspective in that wonderful voice. John has said before that he cringes at the thought of people thinking him as a guide or teacher. He welcomed people to take what resonated with them. I loved that and felt welcome. I love hearing people's points of view in a time where so many go on the offensive and want to fight or debate. So happy to have you two gentlemen back❤
Thanks - glad you’re here. Phil
Welcome back. We love you. Spirit farmer.
Phil and John are our favorite combo. John looks magnificent. I hope he lives to 140. 😊
John, Phil, I love you!!!
❤ SO happy your back together John and Phil! I'm looking forward to listening tonight thank you 🙏✨
Thanks for listening - let us know what you made of it. Phil
Happy to see that you returned to the Phil & John format. Its my favourite.
We took our time! Phil
So happy to see you guys back together again. This video was joyful to watch. Thank you.
More to come. Phil
This video makes me so happy to see. :)
Nice to see you both together again John and Phil ! 🌷🌲🌷🙏
Thanks Lena - it's been a while hasn't it? 7 more to come. :-) Phil
Glad to see you chaps back together 🎉
Thank You for your being mister Buttler. 🙏🙏🙏❤👍😊
Wonderfull!!!! Thanks to both of you
Wonderful. Praise the Lord!
You know you can watch them all here - Pure & Simple
ruclips.net/p/PL_TtBqRWu4B-GHijmwCviIQfJ1esbcmhV. Phil
It does my heart so much good to see the church again with you two in conversation. Thank you so much. What a great discussion. It reminded me of when Job asked God "why is this happening?". God responded sharing that His creation is amazing, powerful, wild, wondrous, and dangerous. And...there's no way you can comprehend it. At the end of the day, what are the motives of our heart? Are we willing to accept His new covenant? Just as we are?
Thanks - there is a whole conversation on the suffering of Job later in the series. You can watch it now in the “to make whole be whole“ section. Phil
Looking good John!
Awwww so good to see Phil & John back at it again❤we have missed you both!!
Shucks - thanks. Phil
You can watch the others here - Pure & Simple
ruclips.net/p/PL_TtBqRWu4B-GHijmwCviIQfJ1esbcmhV
The greatest gift of my life. God bless
Things don’t go wrong, they go as they are supposed to go. We just don’t always like it. “Wrong” is a human invention.
Yet another (sweeping)opinion presented as fact
Bless you, John.
Wonderful to see you both! It made my day :) Thank you, and I must say that you are both looking very healthy and years younger! Looking forward to your next chat. Cheers.
I haven't kept up with these videos, but it's nice to see John, Phil, and the church back together again.
Thanks - here’s the full series: Pure & Simple
ruclips.net/p/PL_TtBqRWu4B-GHijmwCviIQfJ1esbcmhV. Phil
Dear John and Phil,
So glad you’re both back. I’ve missed you.
Thanks Marta - it’s been a while. The others are here: Pure & Simple
ruclips.net/p/PL_TtBqRWu4B-GHijmwCviIQfJ1esbcmhV. Phil
Thanks for this amazing video! I discovered this channel a few months ago and I have been binge watching a lot of the content. I’ve been meditating for a few years, and John’s ‘common sense guide to meditation’ series is the best discussion of meditation I have come across. I could happily spend eternity with that series as my only thing to listen to.
As for this current video on sin, this is also a very interesting subject. As I see it, John talks about sin in two ways.
Sometimes he means simply not being present (being lost in thought, distracted etc). This is a very appealing way to think about this, but I’m not sure I would use the word ‘sin’ for this, because this word has too much baggage and causes too much confusion. I much prefer ‘suffering’ or ‘unsatisfactoriness’, language which aligns more with the Buddhist way of thinking (ie dukkha) (and this is indeed what John touches on at the end of the video). I suspect this way of thinking about ‘sin’ as simply not being present would be very controversial amongst most Christians, including orthodox Christians.
The second way John discusses sin involves a moral aspect, and this is much more consistent with a religious/scriptural/everyday way of thinking about sin (certain behaviors are good, certain behaviors are bad). This does not necessarily have anything to do with being ‘present’ as I see it, which is simply paying attention.
My take on all this (and I’m making massive assumptions here of course) is as follows: John has discovered, through meditation, an experience that is universal and has been discovered by mystics throughout history. This spiritual experience is a feeling of oneness/unity/stillness that is available when one is fully present, paying attention to the present moment, and not distracted. This feeling is extremely blissful, and is naturally interpreted in a religious way by religious individuals. This feeling of stillness can not really be described in words. When we do try to describe it, we often use religious language, because the feeling is sufficiently grand to warrant divine language. In the case of John, he uses Christian language to try to describe the spiritual experience, because this is what he knows and is comfortable with. He seems to interchange the word ‘present’ ie paying attention, being present, with the word ‘presence’, ie the presence of God, and this takes him from the experience of being present, to the concept of God. This comment is not meant as a criticism, using language that resonates with oneself to try to capture the spiritual experience is totally valid, and is a useful tool for enhancing the spiritual experience, and I think this is what John is doing here (again I am making massive assumptions). I think this is why, when John is pushed on what exactly he means by the words he uses, as Phil does, John often prefers to fall back on the experience itself (keep your feet on the ground 😊), because the language we use to try to describe the spiritual experience does not manage to actually describe the experience if you look at the language too literally. This is why I personally do not use religious language to describe the spiritual experience (because if I do, my brain will then want to know what exactly those words mean and why am I using them). I don’t think the experience of oneness/stillness actually tells us anything concrete about God or the universe.
Ultimately, my favourite saying from John is something like ‘the answer to all questions is there is no question’, so I will try to stop thinking about this very interesting link between meditation and morality, and instead pay attention to the feeling of being present, simply because it makes me feel happy.
Well … that must be the longest comment ever! And I could follow it 😊 Maybe I should ask you to do John’s next conversation 👏 Phil
So glad to see you both back in that kindly place!
Kind of you to say so. Phil
I very recently came across this channel and have been binge watching past videos. I love these talks. Thank you
Phil great to have you back putting words in John’s mouth. Perhaps the biblical account is the wisest we have, the inspired Word’s of the One True Living and Life-giving God, good ground, good seed.
thanks, John and Phil...God bless(es) you..
Yay! Everything is right with the world again. Love you both. 🙏❤️
Brilliant to see the duo back! Thanks
Like the Lone Ranger and Tonto. ;-) Phil
@@SpiritualUnfoldment When surrounded by thousands of furious Indians, the Lone Ranger asked Tonto, "What do we do now?" Tonto replied, "What do you mean 'we', White Man?"🤣 Jokes aside--so blessed to see you both together again. Tonto, like you, was never just a 'sidekick', but pivotal to the entire story. Blessings from China.🙏🕊🔥
Thank you both from the bottom of my very grateful heart ❤ Xx
Our pleasure Trude - it’s taken a while! Phil
...so worth waiting for. Absolutely lovely ❤
So good to see you back together and I’m really enjoying this discussion, thank you both ❤❤❤
I needed this! Love the both of you! God bless you ❤
💓 Thank you John.
Oh how wonderful to see you both back chatting in the church....like old times.
Welcome back ❤❤
Ah thanks Eileen - 7 more to go! Phil
You can watch them all in the To Make Whole Be Whole section here - ruclips.net/p/UUMOi0TFuqj6eND-mJRf8i2Tnw. Phil
May Your Blessings
🙏🏼 Be Multiplied.
Exponentially…
Thank you for coming back x
“If you wish to be a follower of mine leave self behind”
finally ! the kings are back
Thanks John, thanks Phil. ❤
It is here and now. It has always been here and now ; It will continue to be here and now. Look in to the infinite not with your eyes but understanding and tell me where you can’t see it. I thank God for opening my Mind to let me know him ; The eternal presence . See it and be it you may cry because it is fully alone but your cry is a cry of Love for itself which you are too. Mr Phill see it and know That Jesus , Buddha , and what so ever is , is only itself then I assure you , you will come to The Silence. No question to ask no answer to know every preoccupation is already answered. May it bless you all. Amen
Well yes, amen to that
A very good topic, I am now at 12 minutes and I am enjoying the discussion.
I like that description of the incompleteness of duality.. you're not denying the individual but more referring to a "me", "you* and God. In a divine dance.
John my new favorite from Chicago.
Yes! welcome back 😊🙏🏻
Thanks 👌 Phil
Phil! We missed you.
I LOVE YOU DOESN'T MEAN I 'WANT YOU'...I LOVE GOD DOESN'T MEAN I WANT TO POSSESS BUT I WANT TO GIVE TO AND SERVE YOU...TKS
I love this man
I missed this old duo. Welcome back.
Thanks - the others are here - Pure & Simple
ruclips.net/p/PL_TtBqRWu4B-GHijmwCviIQfJ1esbcmhV. Phil
@@SpiritualUnfoldment Thank you! I'd watch them, but I don't have enough money for membership right now.
Wonderful to see you two lovely souls back in conversation John and Phil 🙏 I believe SIN is knowing that something is " wrong " but doing it regardless of this knowledge. We are human BEINGS, not Human DOINGS, or Human KNOWINGS but simply BEINGS. Without knowledge there is no understanding of right and wrong, therefore there can be no SIN. God warned us not to take from the " tree of knowledge " but we were tempted, even though we knew it was against his will .... this was our first SIN. From that moment on, we were eternal SINNERS, seeking personal gratification. As John rightly said, whilst recalling his flight. Look up at the expanse, in awe and wonder and we are in the complete state of simply BEING. This is our true state. We do not need to know anything more. I can hear the reaction, to this statement, from many already. " But we could not exist without knowledge " When we surrender to God and put all our trust in him, this is the EXACT moment when we truly exist. It is this simple. 🙏 .............. I wrote this just before John began to speak about the " ego " and duality ..... fabulous. It all makes perfect sense. " I LOVE YOU " should simply be " I LOVE " for there is no YOU & I .... but WE 🙏
I agree, Pete, that it is knowledge of good and evil that introduces moral choice. Good or bad. Prior to the first bite both were innocent. It is a puzzle to me why God allowed his innocent children to be so tempted. Death, pain and sweat is a pretty harsh punishment for scrumping. I think there is more to it than that - it is not so much or only about moral choice but about divine justice. In my view, this was fixed for all by Christ. Phil
@@SpiritualUnfoldment Wonderful Phil. Your comment took me right back to when I was caught by the old man who lived in Elkesley House, a big detached house with a high stone wall all around it ( not quite high enough to prevent a young rascal from stealing from his orchard mind you 😂) He asked me in a very calm, gentle voice why I felt the need to steal his apples and I only had to knock on his door and ask and he would have gladly given me a bag full. I guess I learned a great lesson that day and I have always thought about it, and its positive effect upon me in my adulthood. Thank you for these conversations between yourself and John. They are hugely important discussions and are so much appreciated for their wonderful charm and generous sprinklings of gentle wit 🙏
@@PeteAxeShields That last sentence,like a lot of non duality,is oxymoronic.There can't be a 'we' if there is no 'I and 'You'.🤔
Hi John ❤ good seeing you and tuning in 😊
My God I love John. I wish christianity would emphasize more what Jesus said, that we are the light of the world instead of alwyas remind us that we are sinners . I totally agree with you Phil. I love when John said to keep it simple. He is so right. Once I had a dream and Jesus was next to me and he told me that as we get older , we have to simplify things . I saw myself eating my daily bread with joy and love. Jesus was smiling and he told me the most important thing was to live my life one day at the time and that life is much more simple than we think. Thank you John. So nice to see you back with Phil. ❤️❤️
Thanks Lina - always good to hear from you. I was at a Conference in Italy recently and one of the speakers was an 80 year old Italian woman who had had 80 'visitations' from Mother Mary over a 10 year period when she was a girl and Mary's consistent message to her was "You are not 'bad' - you are innocent. Tell everybody they are good." It had a profound impact on me. Phil
@@SpiritualUnfoldment thank you so much for sharing this message Phil. This is a very important message specially in this dark age . Not only we are the light but we have to share this light. ❤️
Thank you for such a rich first conversation. Just a point on universal salvation, which comes up at the end, in my view the greatest book to read on this subject is That All Shall be Saved by David Bentley Hart; it's a profound, brilliantly written book on the depths of the love of God and how there can be no place for the idea of an eternal hell if we believe in a loving God.
Thanks Ben - I bought that book recently but have not read it yet. I also like John Chaffee’s RUclips channel on universal salvation. Phil
I had an experience like that John and Phil. I was 6 months pregnant at that time. I was still just standing around chatting to my husband. I suddenly collapsed from pain and grabbed my belly. Immediately, my thoughts went to my baby. It felt like something got ripped out of my belly very aggresively. I don't know what it is but i just knew something dark left my body. I was just pondering what was my spiritual journey like back than when it happened. I remember thats when i started my spiritual journey of seeking, being curious of what is beyond this world...
Thanks. Hows the seeking? Phil
25:41 I think our friend might be hungry and needs some lunch!
Not watched his videos for a long time indeed, and he wasn’t exactly young then. Glad to know John is still alive ? :)
Theyre back! ahhh ive missed this duo, also side note but John is the only human being that looks like he's de-aging the more he gets older. He looks super healthy!
I know - he’s a spring chicken. Phil
Glad to see you again Phil…unexpected yet familiar, could this be the moving in mysterious ways? Hmmm?
Very mysterious. 😂 Phil
It is in being that we are. That's my motto.
Can you amplify please? Phil
My pleasure, Phil. 'Being' is to exist. In existence, one is present. An awareness of this presence confirms that I am here. I can use this awareness of 'being' to realise my presence and therefore act.
ego individuation is unavoidable. It is built into the fabric of existence to insure the survival of individual beings.
Thanks!
That's kind - thank you. Phil
5:12 I'm just picturing John opening the door to the plane as the stewardess yells out, "Sir, please get back in your seat!" and everyone nearby gets sucked out of the plane, then he climbs out onto the wing with his arms open and exclaims, "Freedom!"
Love it !!!
@@SpiritualUnfoldment Hahaha glad you enjoyed it! Hope to see more of you and John soon.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh Mr Butler..
Things go wrong because we're selfish. Selfishness is the root of all evil and all sin is based on it.
How do I get to the next of the 9 videos? They should be underneath this one, but can't see them 😮
Phil really reminds me of Alan Titchmarsh
I read once that the origin of the word 'sin' is from a Greek archery term, which means to "miss the mark".
love the intro music beautiful
The music is by Dan Phillipson. Phil
I’ve listened to Butler before, and it finally dawned on me after listening to this… this guy’s really just a Gnostic mystic that uses the Christian undertones.
He talks “stillness an meditation”, “the body is evil and our spirit longs to leave the body”, “Jesus being a good teacher and soon returned to the heavenly realms successful..” NONE of this sounds like the Gospel message of our fallen nature missing the mark and need for redemption, and Christ as one person of the omnipresent Triune God. It’s flesh bad, spirit good, and through meditation we can save ourselves.. this is sadly unorthodox heresy, just calling it what it is.
I think we have two types here: John the mystic and Phil the speculative. Perfect combination for a wonderful dialogue!
John says: we have to stay in the Presence, sin in this case is to be absent from this Presence. And in this absence we start to speculate. There is something magical about speculation, but John's solution is: come back to Presence! because speculation is only possible when you are absent!
Have I understood correctly?
Good insight - although I would not call my understandings speculative but rather inquisitive. I do not agree, by the way, that sin is not being in the Presence. In Christian theology it is a state of divine justice. Something I have been speculating about for some time! Phil
@@SpiritualUnfoldment thank you very much for your answer, Phil, great honor for me! but: I tried to understand what John thinks about sin! You clearly think differently, I personally think like John. The labels "mystic" and "speculative" are only formal, I just wanted to say that you both represent two different positions, and that is wonderful because we can understand better what John wants to say!
thanks again! and all the best from Germany
Thanks
Chile? Oh great! Thank you :-) Phil
John is cut of old wood and his spirituality is respectable. Scientifically, it’s more likely that we are experiencing a simulation, similar to the movies The Matrix or Avatar. Everything in the universe, including our experience, death, spirituality, can perfectly be explained thru the glasses of the simulation theory. Very few religions are close to that and they have served humanity while understanding was growing and evolving. Just like with any good simulation, it serves to teach us something and for us to learn.
FOTG: I and the Father are One. Compleat Oneness, no duality. John Wimber wrote a song....”I am yours you are mine we are one.....
Love the intro music. Where can I get it ?
Search for Dan Phillipson - I’d have to look up the track. Its licensed. Phil
You too are great - but the reason why things go wrong - as John has pointed out often before - is not “because of sin” - it is the “ME”…
We are the reason.
Sin is our fault - not God’s. We choose the enemy of God (who as Christ says is the controller of this fallen world).
We need to reject it - IF we are Christians.
Christ demands we try - by the emulation of HIM alone…
We all want to go Home - and those open skies are God’s gift to John of a glimpse of the paradise to come for him.
Anyway, your discussion is great as always. John is a remarkable man.
But the discussion and joy in John’s eyes is so great because of one reason alone :-
God.
All beauty is His.
Ahhhh indeed. ‘No sin Phil’ is back, No Jesus? Just listening to the beginning, but trust John will, as ever, get round to honouring both freedom in Jesus (not to sin) and justice and truth, biblical truth. Let’s see.
Mystical biblical truth.
Treebeard or Gandalf?
Harry Potter is a sh*t series of sh*t books. No wonder England is defunct Island now. You're all a bunch of gay wizards.
It's like John and Paul back together!
John the Baptist and Saint Paul or Lennon and McCartney? 😂 Phil
Sin is when we are not on the right track in our own life’s …
John selling T shirts in his channel links while preaching to humanity not to sell-out lmao
Don’t worry - we only put them there because people asked for them. Phil