Thank you for this amazing discussion! I went through a spiritual emergency, starting a few years ago after an awakening experience (which turned my world upside down). Thankfully I’ve integrated and healed so much. It was hell at times tbh, although now I have a greater level of peace than I’ve ever experienced. I would LOVE to see more transpersonal psychologists and therapists in our communities, as alternatives to the big pharma & psych industrial complex as it stands now. Blessings to everyone on their journeys! ✌️💓
@@charlo5050 hi Charles! I’m a recovering alcoholic and I had an awakening experience in 2017, and then a series of tough life experiences happened. I relapsed and then I had traumatic events that happened as a result of my addiction and because I started hanging out with a “bad” crowd (and ended up in psych wards, a detox, and with PTSD), so my experience is different in that way (although we all have our unique experience). It took 3 years from my awakening, to my “breakdown” and bottom, and healing and integration - which is ongoing. Thankfully people are talking about this process online. Watching videos like these have helped me so much, and made me feel less alone 🙏🤗💓 Blessings to you on this journey, Charles! ✨🙏✨
@Redneck Rishi I’m with you there! They forced me to take pharmaceuticals while I was on a psych ward, but I stopped taking the meds once I was released and haven’t looked back. I don’t judge people who take meds, but I also don’t subscribe to the current mental health model and its reliance upon and subservience to big pharma. I haven’t taken prescription meds since then, and I’ve never been happier and more at peace in my life 🙏🤗 (because I was able to feel and heal etc etc). Blessings to you! 💓
It is a great service you do here, trying to unpack these very delicate intricacies of spiritual unfoldment. I’m sure many will feel comfort at watching this and knowing they are not alone in those ungraspable states. I would like to respectfully suggest more interviews on this topic, with perhaps those who have gone through the whole process and beyond. You talked here about working with the environment and a positive perspective/hope. It sure helps a lot, but I feel it’s crucial to have guidance from those who have 'walked the razor's edge'- people who can guide us further because they themselves are much further. This guidance actually exists, and not only in the shape of spiritual masters, but there are entire traditions and knowledge structures that have stood for hundreds if not thousands of years, used as platforms by these very masters once they are so far to be able to guide others. If we want to advance only from the perspective of our current western framework (such as psychiatry), we are only going to get as far as those parameters. It is of course very helpful, but it will only be suffice until a certain point. It was mentioned here that the word “spirituality” feels worn. Yet I believe it is not the word that gets worn, but the consciousness that uses it. It's the same thing with traditions, teachings, and knowledge structures. It is not the word, but rather the people speaking the word and the word being spoken by people. That’s why I feel we can’t understand the full extent of the process if we have no guidance from a fully developed, realised human being who can renew these words and mental framework/structures while our own consciousness (individual and collective) continues to unfold. I hereby offer you this pointer of light: my Teacher Igor Kufayev Vamadeva. I hope this will help some to find the guidance they need. Grateful for both your contributions, Olinda.
When his heart was broken It cracked open The pain was so intense and immense His tears fell like rain They poured once again When he saw the dark stains his heart contained With his core revealed He bowed down and kneeled Until his brokenness was healed So he could stand strong once more Better than before Still sore The pain remains To cleanse the stains
Jung has been my lifelong guide. He never lets me down.PS If you haven't yet please watch his filmed interviews. He's EXACTLY what you'd expect visual wise. Behind the respectable professor appearance radiates the magical power of a wizard.
Oh what a breath of fresh air Dr Read is to the difficult world of mental illness/disorder, all power and praise to him and the small minority of doctors who went into psychiatry, saw its limitations regarding the usage of pharmaceutical drugs as the only response practiced in team systems of treatments and had the intestinal fortitude to stand back and say emphatically that there must be other approaches to dealing with psychological distress. In Australia where I reside there seems to be a one pointed approach to such matters and there is mental health legislation that enables psychiatrists to issue treatment orders for voluntary and involuntary treatments with psychoactive medications as the first and only line of medical response. In predominantly all instances, the patient and their family are advised that medications are not just the initial response, but will remain in place indefinitely. Briefly in my family’s situation, I am the father and carer of my son who was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia 26 years ago. He is now regarded as treatment resistant, meaning that he has maladapted to the prescribed drugs and that the symptoms he displayed originally are virtually unchanged at present. However, there is definitely no chance that any consideration would be given to ceasing the treatment regime. Too bad, that’s it!
@Redneck Rishi Thanks for comments on your personal perspective of dealing with psychological circumstances that mainstream social norms say are grounds for disorder that the psychiatric professionals analyse as requiring treatments with psychotropic medications. Good luck and good health to you. Regrettably, the number of existentialist psychiatrists like Dr Read are very few and they have to be courageous to stand against the pressures from the orthodox drug-related interventionists.
I was delightfully surprised by the things that were shared in this conversation . Yes, it’s true .. BIG LIFE CHANGES - can trigger a domino effect / which often feels catastrophic. One may think - “ I’m cracking up “ ( ie going crazy ) Or - “‘I feel like I’m coming to the end of myself “: .. ( ie I’m probably dying ) If one is religious - or - investigating spiritual paths - one might think, “ I’m becoming enlightened “.. > These changes affect various aspects of the human experience - and like the professor said / it’s important to have access to a safe place w, safe people .. Unfortunately - these crack ups ( upheavals ) usually happen when your old arrangements come apart. Although it may feel like death, the new you IS emerging .. > It does feel like - you’re totally raw - and exposed - 25/7 !!! And quite honestly - there’s no way to slow it down or turn around & go back - once it gets started ... Chin up & make good use of whatever / situations you find yourself in & just do your best, or , do what you can , or , just breathe ! > I found it very helpful to take warm baths.. And, I immersed myself in various creative activities, writing poetry, taking photos, making art cards, attending classes at art school, trying new art supplies .. > It is very important to protect yourself & be patient & gentle with yourself. Do your very best to eat, sleep, take walks, & avoid exposing yourself to anything the is taxing ( stressful ) Do not try to start a new business or go for your masters. Avoid loud crowds, avoid drinking, drugging, & sex.. This is a very sacred time for you to be with yourself.. > You will know what to do & when to do it. You will feel a burst of energy / hope - and interest to go do that one thing, like take a walk, there, - visit that store - buy that magazine - see that film .. I know for me - it felt so foreign.. I was scared ! It turns out - I wasn’t used to being self guided ; having been following direction all my life & avoiding / ignored myself ! Looking back, with hindsight - I realize it was a time of my life ! Total renewal ! It’s an incredible opportunity to EVOLVE ! 👍🏼📝☺️💫
Fantastic. Im on a 12 step programme . The best thing Ive ever done.Integration is a lifelong process. The ancient and established religions and philosophers knew that. Our wise elders ❣
Wow, David, so weird to listen to this tonight. I am right in the middle of just what you describe. Was a comfort to come across this confirmatory discussion with Tim. Thanks for the opportunity to climb out of the shame vat for a bit :)
That was a meaningful discussion...have been going through the kind of transformation you talked about and what was said gave me permission to be as I am while I go through it. Thanks.
Good job discussing this on the video. I think one of the difficulties, if not the central one, when we're facing these transformative states of consciousness, comes about because of mental rigidity. As someone who's experienced psylocibin a handful of times and psychedelics twice before, my experiences ranged from ecstatic and awe inspiring to overwhelming and paralysing. Theres usually a level of clarity and understanding that comes from reflecting on these experiences in hindsight- but I always remind myself that while under the influence and actually 'being' in that state is very different from this detached and sort of intellectual or cerebral manner of processing the event. While undergoing that experience, idk if it's better for it to be called transformative or spiritual, but that experience is very 'feeling' based and less of an intellectual journey. The ego death isnt experienced as 'an ego death' in some jungian or psychoanalytic way but instead as a truly Felt sense of ones Being being sort of enmeshed "in this world", for me at least, and it's always included a heighten awareness, a sort of hypersensitivity, and for me especially, the realization that it's all happening Now. Hence the feeling of being overwhelmed... That aside, the most updated way of wording the challenges I faced has been to see that underlying that adventure or misadventure, the amount of tension or relieve I experienced came about because of this rigidity. Either not know how to let go and getting through it(anxiety, self consciousness, whatever the problem was) or maintaining that preferable, optimal center of awareness. And yes in hindsight, the 'problems' were most likely present as a result of early childhood conditioning, unprocessed emotional residue or trauma if you will, all of that personal and intimate stuff that happens within us all; in my experiences, it was usually the heighten awareness of these factors or rather how I was thinking about them that lead to the 'bad trips', because it's all Felt and there I was rationalizing my immediate experience, trying to soothe myself with jargon and offering explanations instead of a soothing response (hence why upon reflection, I become aware that it was trauma, parental attachment issues or challenges in some stage of development, whatever it would be, given that every trip was like a cathartic release or a reliving of that in a Felt sense). That aside, idk if the other people who have "tripped" with me had such an experience of reliving their traumas or come to a closer understanding of what healing entails, seeing that matters of the psyche are firstly very subtle and challenging to grapple with, even as a matter of empirical fact, and secondly, usually personal and very close to ones heart so I'm not so sure if others have experienced the same thing as me. People have all sorts of issues and given the nature of the psyche, I'm not sure if it's possible to give one remedy that works for us all, however working on being adaptive, flexible, and grounded in a psychological and truly embodied way seem like prerequisites of this 'path', whether its substance induced or not.
This resonates in perfect synchronicity with where I'm it in my life right now, and the spiritual work I've begun doing with a trusted group of experienced individuals. The conversation around depression and the role of anti-depressant medications hits close to home, as does the conversation around, "is this mine, or am I largely just feeling the collective consciousness?". We all have our own journeys, but I am so grateful see others on this path, and plan on further delving into the RW community page David mentions at the end. I am not alone. You are not alone.
The path to self discovery. Many roads lead to it. A very simple understanding can be found in a book called The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. The book illustrates how are conscience is formed first by our parents and then buy our peers. Then how do we just become ourselves.
This was really helpful. Ive read the book which has helped as well. This level of explanation both general and personnel is so needed. Brilliant job thank you
Dear @Rebel Wisdom, when it comes to discussing spiritual emergency - who is really able to address this topic other than those who have undergone the process and fully understand the ins and outs? If you were to discuss mathematics, it would make sense to ask a mathematician - bringing a medic to discuss maths wouldn’t make a lot of sense. In the same way, bringing a spiritual adept to discuss spiritual emergency would be totally logical and appropriate. I understand that being a journalist you might want to approach these matters in a ‘politically correct’ way by inviting authorities and voices from respective fields (or at least people in suits with PhD’s in their titles) but why don’t we look for another perspective? To make it more real and not only as an intellectual debate? No need to be afraid to reach out to those who will properly address this topic. This is a serious thing and it needs to be addressed so don't get defensive by my slightly harsh tone(!) People who watch your show may well be in the midst of a ‘spiritual emergency’ and are looking for answers. Listening to advice such as "take some drugs to go through your day" can do more harm than good and only confuses them further. It is great that the topic is being addressed but please, please, please do your own unbiased research. Recently one scientist called Amir Fiermann has been doing his PhD thesis on a related topic. And how did he approach the topic he’s pursuing ‘Living Transcendence: A Phenomenological Study of Spiritual Exemplars’? By tracking down all those recommended to him as spiritual masters and interviewing them extensively, take a look at his interviews with Igor Kufayev for example.
I just fired my 2nd Therapist in 2 months because they wanted to put the dark stuff back in the box or take control of the narrative in either an unrealistic positive or negative way. They wanted to control it for me. I'm on public assistance. How the hell am I going to find someone who can just midwife this stuff with me. I totally relate to David talking about how he needs to integrate some really positive as well as negative stuff that happened. But where are the skilled helpers who will work on the gubmint dime?
32:30 "The ideal environment would be an environment where you really are looked after so you can go deeper into what you're going into. These environments are very difficult to find." It is my dream to create these environments.
Profound meaning States? As a person for whom the drugs always had an initial placebo-affect & that always wore-off. Stephen Porges PVT & 3 years in Buddhist Thailand helped me understand Dr John Weir Perry's perspective of Spiritual Emergency as an invitation to self-differentiate why we are here & what happens; WHEN THE DREAM BECOMES REAL: The Inner Apocalypse in Mythology, Madness & The Future. Which is what David talks about from his own experience. Please read: "The idea that the inner Apocalypse might - for alienated people - be the guardian of the gate to a sustainable civilisation has a metaphorical ring of truth which I find appealing. To explore it further, I went to California in the early 1980s to meet a man who was especially knowledgeable on the subject. I had first met John Weir Perry a few years before in Boston at the first conference of the International Transpersonal Association (ITA), and was impressed by his compassion, wisdom, and humility. John Perry was a Jungian psychiatrist who founded an experimental residential facility called Diabasis, in San Francisco, California, during the 1970s. This was designed as a comfortable home where young adults, who were experiencing the initial days of their first "acute schizophrenic break", could live in and be empowered to go through their Apocalypse on the way to greater health and happiness. The results were amazing: without any treatment by medication, electroshock or locked doors, full-blown "schizophrenics" were able to go through their ego-death and emerge on the other side, as Perry puts it, "weller than well." Instead of being sent to the mental hospital and/or taking medication for the rest of their lives, these certified "schizos" would live at the facility for the first three months, spend the following three in a half-way house, and then return to the outside world, never having any relapse of their "schizophrenia" again! This corroborated the results of R. D. Laing's famous Kingsley Hall experiment in London in the sixties, in which only nine out of sixty-five "certified psychotics" who were tracked afterwards were re-admitted to hospitals again. Those who insist that "schizophrenia" is a disease will have to admit that it is curable! The principal differences between Kingsley Hall and Diabasis were the deliberately anarchic organisation of the former and its rather dismal location in a London slum, and the more organised approach of the latter in a more pleasant location in Berkeley on San Francisco Bay." The full article can be read here alex-sk.jimdofree.com/john-weir-perry-when-the-dream-becomes-real/
Random question. Does Jordan Peterson know about the polyvagal theory. Just saw him in a podcast with wim hof talking about the nervous system but doesn't seem to know about the polyvagal theory. Can anyone from rebel wisdom get him into nervous system healing or somatic experiencing practitioner? He seem to be having a hard time.
@@monikabravoiamoptimist agreed. it could be a great opportunity of transformation if they were embraced, supported, explored and not just pathologise and tried to fix with drugs
Climate change is fundamentally a spiritual issue. People are filling the void of no religion, or spirituality with politics now - which is the great polarization we can see. On top of that big tech is manipulation everyone's minds through their platforms. As a civilization that is deep engrained in science and technology it's conflicting with the scientific view of 'god' seen in pantheism - a view seen in many ancient human philosophies. We still need spirituality, there's a gaping void right now. The depression and anxiety that everyone is experiencing is that the civilization is committing suicide to the biosphere we are apart of. Capitalism is fundamentally a open-loop system; if you look at the orange theory of the universe.. it's a closed-loop system with a feedback loop, suggesting that the natural law of the universe is a closed-loop systems, like all the ones observed in nature also. Capitalism doesn't measure the social(spirit) aspect either, rather just the material and separates the spirit from the worker. There's a concise summary of a few deep level observations I have researched of late.
Integrating a deep awakening takes many years of work. There is much dysfunction to burn through. However, if it was a true realization you no longer have a say in the matter to an extent. I had 3 or 4 satoris ( glimpses) over 20 years including a near death experience and then the major crisis event in 2003. I was no spiritual seeker, just a standard deluded man... I have been compelled to write spontaneously about it since then, primarily for my own integration and will at some stage make this in to a Driving guide for others to follow. take heart and know, it only gets better as Conscious Awareness unfolds.... Quite a few non duality people i have come across tell me I am a mystic...haha... i say more like I'm a mistake ! Great discussion..... David, good work. a poem to share if I may. Wake up Call Once you get a wake up call or when the penny drops with this knowing of the evermore the mind just sort of stops. but Thinking will start up again and Confusion is its aim Difference is with the truth now known There's 'nothing' there to Blame. so as this thinking comes to light it's examined by what is The universe in deep respect sends it back to where it ris. back to the Furnace of Alchemy where all that you create persists it gets burned out of your existence by The Lack of what resists...... by JAWelsh cheers.
I find it interesting how he used the term "formative lesions" for early psychic trauma. They are often inexpressible. We cannot put a story behind it. It is just there. For me, as a musician, I feel that this is the area that my own musical compositions attempt to address. I can honest admit that I have no idea what my music means. I don't know what it is attempting to express - but I feel it is very important.
oh yes. ty rebel. good guest. there is no easy way to talk about mental unwellness. sense making, metrocity, communicating to understand eachother has had a huge impact on confronting beliefs, values and accepting differences. it helps to inform our decisions and to act according to another person/s needs, whilst keeping one's individual creativity of mind protected too. it takes courage to push this sense making action, but the beautiful effect is worth it. we need more "29k" platforms/robotic tech 😏 maybe? ... as prevention or rehabilitation in elevated mental emergence.
Not coming to premature conclusions is a good tip. Another three tips are: 1) If the ego is activated, then the experience is stressful because of the fear of death, so it's best to work on relaxing the ego beforehand. 2) We return home through the same doors we exited, so if we cut off from life at large due to a past trauma, then we might need to face that memory again, and we will probably be surprised by the event that caused the closure - it wasn't the one we thought it was. 3) We shouldn't give excessive importance to anything because the point is for our energy to stay with us, so that it can return to its source rather than being leaked into things we assume to be important.
There is the human Spirits which can be characterized by both man-made spirituality and those things Incorporated within it as a means to manage Human Resources, through manipulation and or influencing if that's what you prefer and then you have spirituality which is most certainly a man-made concept with the prime directive of managing human resources and all conveniently for maintaining the Monopoly over the world economy and its money supply, these are the two ingredients we require to measure misery around the planet. It is a monopoly over the world economy and its money supply that we used to derive the misery index. The true root cause of all human-generated misery on the planet, regardless of the origin of the symptom of any psychosocial or social economic challenge all are deeply rooted in the foundational cause of Monopoly over the world economy and is money supply. I would say as it relates to the spirit I focus on the individual human spirit as there is a means to measure the outcome of participation of the human spirit in a challenge from which in turn the product of our human Spirits labour and or true application towards overcoming a challenge. This idea of spirituality has become a means of escapism from the reality of the Monopoly over everything as well as what is required along with that the removal of the Constitution let alone your Universal Cosmic granted rights, and so what we find is that this spirituality works against individuals and Society at Large. Most religions and many spiritual types of systems or ideologies steer away from championing freedoms, more specifically those freedoms that alleviates misery which are mentioned above. spirituality does not serve as a means to resolving root causes of Psychosocial and social economic problems than it really serves no purpose other than covering up the damages and injuries caused by these monopolistic systems what we then find is that through this Band-Aid approach is that the wound becomes increasingly more infected while leaving behind I never ending pungent bad smell from which both the perfume spirituality and it's Band-Aid approach simply does nothing to cure the root cause of the illness but rather only serves to conceal it, but in doing so that illness leads to otherwise avoidable and premature death of the body and spirit. play Monopoly over the world economy and money supply as well as diminishing overall freedoms removes more and more of the capacity for Humanity to generate sound mind, self-worth and maturity as well as from there inhibiting the ability to Foster and nurture love, empathy and forgiveness to the extent that it is humanly possible to do so under the most ideal conditions. Those ideal conditions being the return of the ancient free Marketplace and the people's participation within it based on the foundation of sound money. Once again we determine the misery index by factoring in diminishing economic freedoms and the absence of sound money. this is of a matter of fact and does not require abstract speculation or a complex approach to understanding nor does it require tinfoil hat Fashions into a hat do understand the true root cause of all human-generated misery within the realm in which we live. Please give me a thumbs down or thumbs-up and or a reply. In fact I require some sort of notification so that I know whether I should continue to subscribe to this channel, that will depend on whether I am being censored or not and it is for this reason that I require a thumbs-up or thumbs-down in order to make an informed decision whether or not I'm going to remain subscribe to this channel. Well I hope you learned something new goodbye for now
I appreciate your comments here, even if I don't agree with every aspect. There's a lot of natural ambiguity that arises when making such such wide-ranging, yet hyper-focused arguments. I think you'd be better understood if you simplified your argument (and defined your terms, as there can be multiple interpretations), then expanded / clarified the concepts based on feedback / push-back. What you have here is awfully dense, and for a layman, nearly unintelligible.
This is too egotistical of a comment, how can WE learn something new from someone who is the darkness of PLATOS CAVE...please come out... it's safe to unsubscribe, yea? "EVERY WISH FULFILLED" E.T.
Emergency? Spiritual emergency does not sounds right. The discussion is more about personal emotions, blocked emotions. Nevertheless, it is good you talk about it.
Well Spirit as in self consciousness therefore relating to matters of the mind. Spirituality is not necessarily tied to religion, or philosophy though it's most often used in that context.
@@rdooski I was saying about those two words together. They cannot belong together. I was not clear enough, I was not discussing the videol, but the association of the words. Apologies for not being clearer.
@@catherineiselin he uses the term “emergent” so the meaning is more an emergence of spirituality in that context rather than a crisis. Or both, as he describes.
It's a messy confusion, trying to overturn our flawed traits. The person doing so, values those traits, to have them, even if consciously they don't always know precisely why. So it does sometimes feel like a dream that we can change, even when others have proved it possible. The new frame can be spiritual to get at a layer above ourselves to then affect the below. I know the way I'm changing myself now, will seem foolish to my future self if I do get past it, but I can't seem to bring myself to voluntarily endure the essence of what I'm avoiding. I see myself attempting some oblique angles, against what is probably the core of my issue, but maybe it has to be thus.
@@bradbecker8982 I learned about meditation after I fell accidentally into a deep meditation in my early teens. I was listening through my Walkman to a tape I had played repeatedly for some weeks. I was sitting alone comfortably on my bed with my back straight against the wall. I began to notice how my perception was connected to my breathing.
@@bradbecker8982 True power doesn’t need to prove itself. A true spiritual teacher doesn’t see themselves as just a teacher but rather a hand locked in hand from one perceived ledge to another. A good teacher in my opin ion destroyed the pedestal before you put them there. Paradox is the hardest place for the ration all mind. I appreciate your comments
So he did special breathing and had a spiritual experience and accepted it. What i'm interested in is whether he used any skepticism and asked himself, might this have been my brain reacting to some change in brain chemistry or something? Or does he conclude, I felt something that felt real therefore it was real?
Freedom = Making certain choices by us and bearing the consequences of those choices . It has nothing to do with shame but following certain moral and social norms in life . Without it our life become one big chaos . Chaos comes from disorder . I tutaj sprawdziło się po raz kolejny stare przysłowie , ktòre mòwi , że - " Jak trwoga to do Boga " . Szkoda tylko , źe jak trwoga .
I truly value and appreciate Rebel Wisdom and the efforts and insights contained within. But every time he calls a You Tube video a "film" it makes me want to jump off a bridge. Ben Hur is a film. It's a Wonderful Life is a film. These are "tiny video interviews". “The little lies that now seem intolerable.” indeed. JS. :D
Thank you for this amazing discussion! I went through a spiritual emergency, starting a few years ago after an awakening experience (which turned my world upside down). Thankfully I’ve integrated and healed so much. It was hell at times tbh, although now I have a greater level of peace than I’ve ever experienced. I would LOVE to see more transpersonal psychologists and therapists in our communities, as alternatives to the big pharma & psych industrial complex as it stands now. Blessings to everyone on their journeys! ✌️💓
Great that you came through it, this will be encouraging for others to read, thank you!
@@nclayton877 that’s so kind of you, thank you Nathan 🙏
@@charlo5050 hi Charles! I’m a recovering alcoholic and I had an awakening experience in 2017, and then a series of tough life experiences happened. I relapsed and then I had traumatic events that happened as a result of my addiction and because I started hanging out with a “bad” crowd (and ended up in psych wards, a detox, and with PTSD), so my experience is different in that way (although we all have our unique experience). It took 3 years from my awakening, to my “breakdown” and bottom, and healing and integration - which is ongoing. Thankfully people are talking about this process online. Watching videos like these have helped me so much, and made me feel less alone 🙏🤗💓 Blessings to you on this journey, Charles! ✨🙏✨
@Redneck Rishi I’m with you there! They forced me to take pharmaceuticals while I was on a psych ward, but I stopped taking the meds once I was released and haven’t looked back. I don’t judge people who take meds, but I also don’t subscribe to the current mental health model and its reliance upon and subservience to big pharma. I haven’t taken prescription meds since then, and I’ve never been happier and more at peace in my life 🙏🤗 (because I was able to feel and heal etc etc). Blessings to you! 💓
“The little lies that now seem intolerable.” I can totally relate.
It is a great service you do here, trying to unpack these very delicate intricacies of spiritual unfoldment. I’m sure many will feel comfort at watching this and knowing they are not alone in those ungraspable states.
I would like to respectfully suggest more interviews on this topic, with perhaps those who have gone through the whole process and beyond. You talked here about working with the environment and a positive perspective/hope. It sure helps a lot, but I feel it’s crucial to have guidance from those who have 'walked the razor's edge'- people who can guide us further because they themselves are much further. This guidance actually exists, and not only in the shape of spiritual masters, but there are entire traditions and knowledge structures that have stood for hundreds if not thousands of years, used as platforms by these very masters once they are so far to be able to guide others. If we want to advance only from the perspective of our current western framework (such as psychiatry), we are only going to get as far as those parameters. It is of course very helpful, but it will only be suffice until a certain point.
It was mentioned here that the word “spirituality” feels worn. Yet I believe it is not the word that gets worn, but the consciousness that uses it. It's the same thing with traditions, teachings, and knowledge structures. It is not the word, but rather the people speaking the word and the word being spoken by people. That’s why I feel we can’t understand the full extent of the process if we have no guidance from a fully developed, realised human being who can renew these words and mental framework/structures while our own consciousness (individual and collective) continues to unfold.
I hereby offer you this pointer of light: my Teacher Igor Kufayev Vamadeva. I hope this will help some to find the guidance they need.
Grateful for both your contributions, Olinda.
When his heart was broken
It cracked open
The pain was so intense and immense
His tears fell like rain
They poured once again
When he saw the dark stains his heart contained
With his core revealed
He bowed down and kneeled
Until his brokenness was healed
So he could stand strong once more
Better than before
Still sore
The pain remains
To cleanse the stains
Hi Gary, who wrote this, please? It’s very powerful.
Beautiful thanks for sharing
@@jabud I wrote this poem during a very difficult period where I became aware how my flaws contributed to a broken relationship
@@garycleave9565 It’s a beautiful, moving and inspiring poem. Thank you, Gary, I hope you are keeping well.
That resonates so deeply. Thank you for sharing, Gary 🙏
Reading Jung is another way to integrate these experiences.
For me, some mythological stories were a soothing balm.
Jung has been my lifelong guide. He never lets me down.PS If you haven't yet please watch his filmed interviews. He's EXACTLY what you'd expect visual wise. Behind the respectable professor appearance radiates the magical power of a wizard.
Jung is a great beginning and end
@@coleman318 Freud is a great beginning. Adler the middle, Jung the end.
Oh what a breath of fresh air Dr Read is to the difficult world of mental illness/disorder, all power and praise to him and the small minority of doctors who went into psychiatry, saw its limitations regarding the usage of pharmaceutical drugs as the only response practiced in team systems of treatments and had the intestinal fortitude to stand back and say emphatically that there must be other approaches to dealing with psychological distress.
In Australia where I reside there seems to be a one pointed approach to such matters and there is mental health legislation that enables psychiatrists to issue treatment orders for voluntary and involuntary treatments with psychoactive medications as the first and only line of medical response. In predominantly all instances, the patient and their family are advised that medications are not just the initial response, but will remain in place indefinitely. Briefly in my family’s situation, I am the father and carer of my son who was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia 26 years ago. He is now regarded as treatment resistant, meaning that he has maladapted to the prescribed drugs and that the symptoms he displayed originally are virtually unchanged at present. However, there is definitely no chance that any consideration would be given to ceasing the treatment regime. Too bad, that’s it!
@Redneck Rishi
Thanks for comments on your personal perspective of dealing with psychological circumstances that mainstream social norms say are grounds for disorder that the psychiatric professionals analyse as requiring treatments with psychotropic medications. Good luck and good health to you. Regrettably, the number of existentialist psychiatrists like Dr Read are very few and they have to be courageous to stand against the pressures from the orthodox drug-related interventionists.
I was delightfully surprised by the things that were shared in this conversation .
Yes, it’s true ..
BIG LIFE CHANGES - can trigger a domino effect / which often feels catastrophic. One may think - “ I’m cracking up “ ( ie going crazy )
Or - “‘I feel like I’m coming to the end of myself “: .. ( ie I’m probably dying )
If one is religious - or - investigating spiritual paths - one might think, “ I’m becoming enlightened “..
> These changes affect various aspects of the human experience - and like the professor said / it’s important to have access to a safe place w, safe people ..
Unfortunately - these crack ups ( upheavals ) usually happen when your old arrangements come apart.
Although it may feel like death, the new you IS emerging ..
> It does feel like - you’re totally raw - and exposed - 25/7 !!!
And quite honestly - there’s no way to slow it down or turn around & go back - once it gets started ...
Chin up & make good use of whatever / situations you find yourself in & just do your best, or , do what you can , or , just breathe !
> I found it very helpful to take warm baths..
And, I immersed myself in various creative activities, writing poetry, taking photos, making art cards, attending classes at art school, trying new art supplies ..
> It is very important to protect yourself & be patient & gentle with yourself.
Do your very best to eat, sleep, take walks, & avoid exposing yourself to anything the is taxing ( stressful )
Do not try to start a new business or go for your masters. Avoid loud crowds, avoid drinking, drugging, & sex.. This is a very sacred time for you to be with yourself..
> You will know what to do & when to do it. You will feel a burst of energy / hope - and interest to go do that one thing, like take a walk, there, - visit that store - buy that magazine - see that film ..
I know for me - it felt so foreign..
I was scared !
It turns out - I wasn’t used to being self guided ; having been following direction all my life & avoiding / ignored myself !
Looking back, with hindsight - I realize it was a time of my life !
Total renewal ! It’s an incredible opportunity to EVOLVE ! 👍🏼📝☺️💫
Thank you so much!! ✨🙏
Fantastic. Im on a 12 step programme . The best thing Ive ever done.Integration is a lifelong process. The ancient and established religions and philosophers knew that. Our wise elders ❣
Agreed, it is a life times work. Tha k your for sharing
Love this type of content. Thanks!
Wow, David, so weird to listen to this tonight. I am right in the middle of just what you describe. Was a comfort to come across this confirmatory discussion with Tim. Thanks for the opportunity to climb out of the shame vat for a bit :)
That was a meaningful discussion...have been going through the kind of transformation you talked about and what was said gave me permission to be as I am while I go through it. Thanks.
Good job discussing this on the video. I think one of the difficulties, if not the central one, when we're facing these transformative states of consciousness, comes about because of mental rigidity. As someone who's experienced psylocibin a handful of times and psychedelics twice before, my experiences ranged from ecstatic and awe inspiring to overwhelming and paralysing. Theres usually a level of clarity and understanding that comes from reflecting on these experiences in hindsight- but I always remind myself that while under the influence and actually 'being' in that state is very different from this detached and sort of intellectual or cerebral manner of processing the event. While undergoing that experience, idk if it's better for it to be called transformative or spiritual, but that experience is very 'feeling' based and less of an intellectual journey. The ego death isnt experienced as 'an ego death' in some jungian or psychoanalytic way but instead as a truly Felt sense of ones Being being sort of enmeshed "in this world", for me at least, and it's always included a heighten awareness, a sort of hypersensitivity, and for me especially, the realization that it's all happening Now. Hence the feeling of being overwhelmed... That aside, the most updated way of wording the challenges I faced has been to see that underlying that adventure or misadventure, the amount of tension or relieve I experienced came about because of this rigidity. Either not know how to let go and getting through it(anxiety, self consciousness, whatever the problem was) or maintaining that preferable, optimal center of awareness. And yes in hindsight, the 'problems' were most likely present as a result of early childhood conditioning, unprocessed emotional residue or trauma if you will, all of that personal and intimate stuff that happens within us all; in my experiences, it was usually the heighten awareness of these factors or rather how I was thinking about them that lead to the 'bad trips', because it's all Felt and there I was rationalizing my immediate experience, trying to soothe myself with jargon and offering explanations instead of a soothing response (hence why upon reflection, I become aware that it was trauma, parental attachment issues or challenges in some stage of development, whatever it would be, given that every trip was like a cathartic release or a reliving of that in a Felt sense).
That aside, idk if the other people who have "tripped" with me had such an experience of reliving their traumas or come to a closer understanding of what healing entails, seeing that matters of the psyche are firstly very subtle and challenging to grapple with, even as a matter of empirical fact, and secondly, usually personal and very close to ones heart so I'm not so sure if others have experienced the same thing as me. People have all sorts of issues and given the nature of the psyche, I'm not sure if it's possible to give one remedy that works for us all, however working on being adaptive, flexible, and grounded in a psychological and truly embodied way seem like prerequisites of this 'path', whether its substance induced or not.
This resonates in perfect synchronicity with where I'm it in my life right now, and the spiritual work I've begun doing with a trusted group of experienced individuals. The conversation around depression and the role of anti-depressant medications hits close to home, as does the conversation around, "is this mine, or am I largely just feeling the collective consciousness?". We all have our own journeys, but I am so grateful see others on this path, and plan on further delving into the RW community page David mentions at the end. I am not alone. You are not alone.
"How do we foster the right mind-set, how can we lean into it with the spirit of curiosity" T.R
The path to self discovery. Many roads lead to it. A very simple understanding can be found in a book called The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. The book illustrates how are conscience is formed first by our parents and then buy our peers. Then how do we just become ourselves.
This was really helpful. Ive read the book which has helped as well. This level of explanation both general and personnel is so needed. Brilliant job thank you
Dear @Rebel Wisdom, when it comes to discussing spiritual emergency - who is really able to address this topic other than those who have undergone the process and fully understand the ins and outs? If you were to discuss mathematics, it would make sense to ask a mathematician - bringing a medic to discuss maths wouldn’t make a lot of sense. In the same way, bringing a spiritual adept to discuss spiritual emergency would be totally logical and appropriate.
I understand that being a journalist you might want to approach these matters in a ‘politically correct’ way by inviting authorities and voices from respective fields (or at least people in suits with PhD’s in their titles) but why don’t we look for another perspective? To make it more real and not only as an intellectual debate? No need to be afraid to reach out to those who will properly address this topic. This is a serious thing and it needs to be addressed so don't get defensive by my slightly harsh tone(!) People who watch your show may well be in the midst of a ‘spiritual emergency’ and are looking for answers. Listening to advice such as "take some drugs to go through your day" can do more harm than good and only confuses them further.
It is great that the topic is being addressed but please, please, please do your own unbiased research. Recently one scientist called Amir Fiermann has been doing his PhD thesis on a related topic. And how did he approach the topic he’s pursuing ‘Living Transcendence: A Phenomenological Study of Spiritual Exemplars’? By tracking down all those recommended to him as spiritual masters and interviewing them extensively, take a look at his interviews with Igor Kufayev for example.
Yeah but some snake oil gurus aren't gonna help either
I just fired my 2nd Therapist in 2 months because they wanted to put the dark stuff back in the box or take control of the narrative in either an unrealistic positive or negative way. They wanted to control it for me.
I'm on public assistance.
How the hell am I going to find someone who can just midwife this stuff with me.
I totally relate to David talking about how he needs to integrate some really positive as well as negative stuff that happened. But where are the skilled helpers who will work on the gubmint dime?
32:30 "The ideal environment would be an environment where you really are looked after so you can go deeper into what you're going into. These environments are very difficult to find."
It is my dream to create these environments.
Exactly, this interview is just intellectual blah blah, not giving any answers
thanks for constantly putting out great content David
Profound meaning States? As a person for whom the drugs always had an initial placebo-affect & that always wore-off. Stephen Porges PVT & 3 years in Buddhist Thailand helped me understand Dr John Weir Perry's perspective of Spiritual Emergency as an invitation to self-differentiate why we are here & what happens; WHEN THE DREAM BECOMES REAL: The Inner Apocalypse in Mythology, Madness & The Future. Which is what David talks about from his own experience. Please read:
"The idea that the inner Apocalypse might - for alienated people - be the guardian of the gate to a sustainable civilisation has a metaphorical ring of truth which I find appealing. To explore it further, I went to California in the early 1980s to meet a man who was especially knowledgeable on the subject. I had first met John Weir Perry a few years before in Boston at the first conference of the International Transpersonal Association (ITA), and was impressed by his compassion, wisdom, and humility.
John Perry was a Jungian psychiatrist who founded an experimental residential facility called Diabasis, in San Francisco, California, during the 1970s. This was designed as a comfortable home where young adults, who were experiencing the initial days of their first "acute schizophrenic break", could live in and be empowered to go through their Apocalypse on the way to greater health and happiness. The results were amazing: without any treatment by medication, electroshock or locked doors, full-blown "schizophrenics" were able to go through their ego-death and emerge on the other side, as Perry puts it, "weller than well." Instead of being sent to the mental hospital and/or taking medication for the rest of their lives, these certified "schizos" would live at the facility for the first three months, spend the following three in a half-way house, and then return to the outside world, never having any relapse of their "schizophrenia" again!
This corroborated the results of R. D. Laing's famous Kingsley Hall experiment in London in the sixties, in which only nine out of sixty-five "certified psychotics" who were tracked afterwards were re-admitted to hospitals again. Those who insist that "schizophrenia" is a disease will have to admit that it is curable! The principal differences between Kingsley Hall and Diabasis were the deliberately anarchic organisation of the former and its rather dismal location in a London slum, and the more organised approach of the latter in a more pleasant location in Berkeley on San Francisco Bay."
The full article can be read here alex-sk.jimdofree.com/john-weir-perry-when-the-dream-becomes-real/
Thank you, it was a great and helpful discussion...please have more of the same.
Random question. Does Jordan Peterson know about the polyvagal theory. Just saw him in a podcast with wim hof talking about the nervous system but doesn't seem to know about the polyvagal theory. Can anyone from rebel wisdom get him into nervous system healing or somatic experiencing practitioner? He seem to be having a hard time.
agree, when the focus is on the logical side alone and the understanding without embodying experiences it can be harsh.
@@monikabravoiamoptimist agreed. it could be a great opportunity of transformation if they were embraced, supported, explored and not just pathologise and tried to fix with drugs
Climate change is fundamentally a spiritual issue. People are filling the void of no religion, or spirituality with politics now - which is the great polarization we can see. On top of that big tech is manipulation everyone's minds through their platforms. As a civilization that is deep engrained in science and technology it's conflicting with the scientific view of 'god' seen in pantheism - a view seen in many ancient human philosophies. We still need spirituality, there's a gaping void right now. The depression and anxiety that everyone is experiencing is that the civilization is committing suicide to the biosphere we are apart of. Capitalism is fundamentally a open-loop system; if you look at the orange theory of the universe.. it's a closed-loop system with a feedback loop, suggesting that the natural law of the universe is a closed-loop systems, like all the ones observed in nature also. Capitalism doesn't measure the social(spirit) aspect either, rather just the material and separates the spirit from the worker. There's a concise summary of a few deep level observations I have researched of late.
"....Its hard work and it takes a long time"
"...Its an ongoing process"...
Aho.
Integrating a deep awakening takes many years of work. There is much dysfunction to burn through. However, if it was a true realization you no longer have a say in the matter to an extent. I had 3 or 4 satoris ( glimpses) over 20 years including a near death experience and then the major crisis event in 2003. I was no spiritual seeker, just a standard deluded man...
I have been compelled to write spontaneously about it since then, primarily for my own integration and will at some stage make this in to a Driving guide for others to follow.
take heart and know, it only gets better as Conscious Awareness unfolds....
Quite a few non duality people i have come across tell me I am a mystic...haha... i say more like I'm a mistake !
Great discussion..... David, good work.
a poem to share if I may.
Wake up Call
Once you get a wake up call
or when the penny drops
with this knowing of the evermore
the mind just sort of stops.
but
Thinking will start up again
and Confusion is its aim
Difference is with the truth now known
There's 'nothing' there to Blame.
so
as this thinking
comes to light
it's examined by what is
The universe in deep respect
sends it back to where it ris.
back
to the Furnace of Alchemy
where all that you create persists
it gets burned
out of your existence
by
The Lack of what resists......
by JAWelsh
cheers.
I find it interesting how he used the term "formative lesions" for early psychic trauma. They are often inexpressible. We cannot put a story behind it. It is just there. For me, as a musician, I feel that this is the area that my own musical compositions attempt to address. I can honest admit that I have no idea what my music means. I don't know what it is attempting to express - but I feel it is very important.
oh yes. ty rebel. good guest. there is no easy way to talk about mental unwellness. sense making, metrocity, communicating to understand eachother has had a huge impact on confronting beliefs, values and accepting differences. it helps to inform our decisions and to act according to another person/s needs, whilst keeping one's individual creativity of mind protected too. it takes courage to push this sense making action, but the beautiful effect is worth it. we need more "29k" platforms/robotic tech 😏 maybe? ... as prevention or rehabilitation in elevated mental emergence.
Fantastic talk
Very different
Dang that was insight, thankyou
Not coming to premature conclusions is a good tip. Another three tips are: 1) If the ego is activated, then the experience is stressful because of the fear of death, so it's best to work on relaxing the ego beforehand. 2) We return home through the same doors we exited, so if we cut off from life at large due to a past trauma, then we might need to face that memory again, and we will probably be surprised by the event that caused the closure - it wasn't the one we thought it was. 3) We shouldn't give excessive importance to anything because the point is for our energy to stay with us, so that it can return to its source rather than being leaked into things we assume to be important.
Yet another banger chief
Would love to hear more about your own journey and experiences, David. I look forward to your take in things as much as the guests
This one was good man!! felt a deep connection with both of you!
Very wise DF.
Needed this. Thank you.
There is the human Spirits which can be characterized by both man-made spirituality and those things Incorporated within it as a means to manage Human Resources, through manipulation and or influencing if that's what you prefer and then you have spirituality which is most certainly a man-made concept with the prime directive of managing human resources and all conveniently for maintaining the Monopoly over the world economy and its money supply, these are the two ingredients we require to measure misery around the planet. It is a monopoly over the world economy and its money supply that we used to derive the misery index. The true root cause of all human-generated misery on the planet, regardless of the origin of the symptom of any psychosocial or social economic challenge all are deeply rooted in the foundational cause of Monopoly over the world economy and is money supply. I would say as it relates to the spirit I focus on the individual human spirit as there is a means to measure the outcome of participation of the human spirit in a challenge from which in turn the product of our human Spirits labour and or true application towards overcoming a challenge. This idea of spirituality has become a means of escapism from the reality of the Monopoly over everything as well as what is required along with that the removal of the Constitution let alone your Universal Cosmic granted rights, and so what we find is that this spirituality works against individuals and Society at Large. Most religions and many spiritual types of systems or ideologies steer away from championing freedoms, more specifically those freedoms that alleviates misery which are mentioned above. spirituality does not serve as a means to resolving root causes of Psychosocial and social economic problems than it really serves no purpose other than covering up the damages and injuries caused by these monopolistic systems what we then find is that through this Band-Aid approach is that the wound becomes increasingly more infected while leaving behind I never ending pungent bad smell from which both the perfume spirituality and it's Band-Aid approach simply does nothing to cure the root cause of the illness but rather only serves to conceal it, but in doing so that illness leads to otherwise avoidable and premature death of the body and spirit. play Monopoly over the world economy and money supply as well as diminishing overall freedoms removes more and more of the capacity for Humanity to generate sound mind, self-worth and maturity as well as from there inhibiting the ability to Foster and nurture love, empathy and forgiveness to the extent that it is humanly possible to do so under the most ideal conditions. Those ideal conditions being the return of the ancient free Marketplace and the people's participation within it based on the foundation of sound money. Once again we determine the misery index by factoring in diminishing economic freedoms and the absence of sound money. this is of a matter of fact and does not require abstract speculation or a complex approach to understanding nor does it require tinfoil hat Fashions into a hat do understand the true root cause of all human-generated misery within the realm in which we live. Please give me a thumbs down or thumbs-up and or a reply. In fact I require some sort of notification so that I know whether I should continue to subscribe to this channel, that will depend on whether I am being censored or not and it is for this reason that I require a thumbs-up or thumbs-down in order to make an informed decision whether or not I'm going to remain subscribe to this channel. Well I hope you learned something new goodbye for now
What is sound money?
I appreciate your comments here, even if I don't agree with every aspect. There's a lot of natural ambiguity that arises when making such such wide-ranging, yet hyper-focused arguments. I think you'd be better understood if you simplified your argument (and defined your terms, as there can be multiple interpretations), then expanded / clarified the concepts based on feedback / push-back. What you have here is awfully dense, and for a layman, nearly unintelligible.
This is too egotistical of a comment, how can WE learn something new from someone who is the darkness of PLATOS CAVE...please come out... it's safe to unsubscribe, yea? "EVERY WISH FULFILLED" E.T.
Thanks so much for this
I need one of those cool ass fugggin light bulbs
Emergency? Spiritual emergency does not sounds right. The discussion is more about personal emotions, blocked emotions. Nevertheless, it is good you talk about it.
Well Spirit as in self consciousness therefore relating to matters of the mind.
Spirituality is not necessarily tied to religion, or philosophy though it's most often used in that context.
You must have missed the part where they discussed everything in your comment.
@@rdooski I was saying about those two words together. They cannot belong together. I was not clear enough, I was not discussing the videol, but the association of the words. Apologies for not being clearer.
@@catherineiselin he uses the term “emergent” so the meaning is more an emergence of spirituality in that context rather than a crisis. Or both, as he describes.
It's a messy confusion, trying to overturn our flawed traits. The person doing so, values those traits, to have them, even if consciously they don't always know precisely why. So it does sometimes feel like a dream that we can change, even when others have proved it possible. The new frame can be spiritual to get at a layer above ourselves to then affect the below.
I know the way I'm changing myself now, will seem foolish to my future self if I do get past it, but I can't seem to bring myself to voluntarily endure the essence of what I'm avoiding.
I see myself attempting some oblique angles, against what is probably the core of my issue, but maybe it has to be thus.
First I hope. Thanks so much for these helpful and hopeful conversations.
we should talk about the connor murphy case.
Getting warmer, medicine is med it at ion. Emerge an see.
Interesting take.
Thank you
This state meant implies that meditation requires reason and know ledge. Knowing is found within through meditation. Beware of he brew concoctions.
@@bradbecker8982 I learned about meditation after I fell accidentally into a deep meditation in my early teens. I was listening through my Walkman to a tape I had played repeatedly for some weeks. I was sitting alone comfortably on my bed with my back straight against the wall. I began to notice how my perception was connected to my breathing.
@@bradbecker8982 True power doesn’t need to prove itself. A true spiritual teacher doesn’t see themselves as just a teacher but rather a hand locked in hand from one perceived ledge to another. A good teacher in my opin ion destroyed the pedestal before you put them there. Paradox is the hardest place for the ration all mind. I appreciate your comments
18:34 - That light bulb drawing looks like the cave drawing some say is an owl, alien, or a star/planet thing
So he did special breathing and had a spiritual experience and accepted it. What i'm interested in is whether he used any skepticism and asked himself, might this have been my brain reacting to some change in brain chemistry or something? Or does he conclude, I felt something that felt real therefore it was real?
Who's read The Hypomanic Edge by Gartner?
Please look up positive disintegration.
Freedom = Making certain choices by us and bearing the consequences of those choices .
It has nothing to do with shame but following certain moral and social norms in life .
Without it our life become one big chaos .
Chaos comes from disorder .
I tutaj sprawdziło się po raz kolejny stare przysłowie , ktòre mòwi , że - " Jak trwoga to do Boga " .
Szkoda tylko , źe jak trwoga .
Give the man a glass of water for gods sake
spiritual emergency...?.??
When someone mumbles like this, it makes me pay closer attention.
Makes me watch at 1 5 speed
The mention a person who's name I won't be able to spell is it Revekie Revecky? anyone know
john vervaeke?
@@mattspintosmith5285 Thanks. You are correct.
🙏
Am I the only one with a screwed outlook on "Asylum grounds?!" It sounds like a magestical unicorn if properly tended...
I truly value and appreciate Rebel Wisdom and the efforts and insights contained within. But every time he calls a You Tube video a "film" it makes me want to jump off a bridge. Ben Hur is a film. It's a Wonderful Life is a film. These are "tiny video interviews". “The little lies that now seem intolerable.” indeed. JS. :D
Am I the only one that found that guy really hard work, incredibly unrelatable and impersonal?!
Ghost busters or seek mental help!