Re: offset, I'm always surprised by how many games give you an option to set a positive or negative offset value in milliseconds, but don't explain what you're actually moving. When I choose +30ms are the objects coming earlier than they used to, or later? Am I moving the notes or the audio track? Not every game is the same
I agree on this one. Pro osu! players say that local and global offsets are the opposite, but where did they get that? I didn't even know it's a thing for quite some time. Example: ask.fm/Rohulk/answers/134156223067 I feel dumb for asking this, but why is it the opposite? Maybe someone here can answer this.
One offset influences the audio, the other the hitposition. You're very right that it's confusing having two especially when osu doesn't explain they are different.
if it's NOTE offset, then you're moving exactly that: the notes themselves. So a positive value means the notes are delayed, so they will cross the timing window later. Negative value = earlier. if it's VIDEO offset, then you're moving the timing window. The "video" here usually refers to how late you're hitting the notes (because your display is showing the image output late), and so the timing window is adjusted to account for that. So for a positive value, the window will be pushed down/towards you if it's downwards scrolling, or up/away from you if it's upwards scrolling. if it's AUDIO offset, then you're moving, well, the audio. The value here usually refers to the actual delay between what the game sees and your audio hardware. So assuming perfect 0ms video, if you tell the game +60ms audio offset, then the game will compensate for that and make the music come 60ms earlier, meaning the actual beat will come BEFORE the note. This one is a little more common for rhythm games that are played on PC, where the audio is in reality usually a few milliseconds later than the video; although most of us will barely notice this delay outside of playing rhythm games. EDIT: additionally, on PC, video lag is often [virtually] nonexistent (unless you decide to hook your rig up to an HDTV), so when games just say "offset", it's usually the note offset, because setting +60ms note offset or +60ms audio offset ultimately has exactly the same effect: they make the beat and the note sync up to each other.
So true. I'm also really sad when a game only supports one type of offset. I had to purchase a new monitor just to play Project Diva while Guitar Hero never caused me any issues even when playing on HDTVs with crazy lag.
This popped up in my recommended and I was intrigued to watch even though I have never really played a rhythm game in my life. Anyways, this was such a well put together video and maybe I’ll pick up a game or two in the future!
Osu is free to download and play. You can play it with a mouse and keyboard, and the other 3 modes it has only need a keyboard. It's a great way to get into rhythm games.
I love all the extra options introduced in simply love, they make ITG a lot more comfortable to play and allow for a crazy amount of customization, whenever I play DDR I have a rough time adjusting to no mini or perspective options. The part where you talked about ratemodding is also very true, ITG naturally has a content deficit at the very upper end (23+), ratemodding really helps people in the upper echelons still improve without having to play the same pool of a couple of songs (or fof).
Great work on that video, I like how you explain your opinions with good arguments. Also nice to see that it seems like we covered almost all your wishes in StepManiaX ;)
as someone who’s only played taiko for most of my rhythm game career, when i heard about speed modification in other games, it was really hard to get my head around. personally, i believe that having maps have speed set by bpm means everyone sees the same thing, and therefore is fair and equal lol. idk tho
Everyone does see the same thing, but everyone has different natural preferences for how fast/slow they can read something! It's certainly equal at face value, but BPM reading varies quite a bit between players overall. Players can learn how to read really fast/really slow, but it still won't quite beat someone who is already so much more used to it if they were to put the same amount of time into a map.
Yeah, in taiko BPM reading is a skill to be learned while in other games it isn't. For some people slower scroll songs will be easier, and for some they will be harder, it's just a different reading ability.
Nice video. I've been playing Stepmania off and on for 15ish years. Assist Tick is a helpful function that generates a noise whenever a note reaches the note receptors. I believe this, along with adjusting the Rate, is something we should see in every rhythm game. Changing the colors of the notes is helpful as well. If I could add a function, I'd add something akin to the ghost racer in driving games. An AI that plays at about the level you played at when you established your most recent high score on a song could play against you and give you something relative to a challenge. It'd be fun to include, and should have skill relative to how you played a song at different rates.
One thing that's been interesting to observe in rhythm games is the evolution of visual clarity/accessibility, especially related to the controller/display interface. Older games like DDR, PIU, IIDX, and Pop'n have fairly unintuitive or difficult to learn note displays. In DDR and PIU, there's a steep learning curve in converting arrows on the screen to directional movement with your feet. Pop'n and IIDX are similar in that the notes are presented in a flat line, but the buttons are offset on the controller, and hand positioning becomes a problem. Everyone that plays them is used to it now, but it's not easy to get started. More modern games like Jubeat, Osu, Maimai, and Chunithm are much better at this (especially Maimai and Chunithm). The rise of unique screen configurations makes it so that there's a much more direct relationship between what you see and the buttons you press (or even just with touch screens now). Even Sound Voltex is much better than previous Bemani games, because the buttons line up the same way as the screen displays them, and your hands have a more natural "home" position.
i think the main reason why osu taiko doesn't allow speed modifiers is because of the HD and HR mods? the whole point of HD is to present a reading challenge, so that players of different skills would benefit from different SV/BPM. Adding a speed modifier defeats the whole process of learning low BPM HD. It's like being able to tweak the AR on osu std and still have your scores ranked. for HR the point is to make the SV quicker(along with narrowing the hit windows) so it also presents a reading challenge, about how quickly you could read(although with a bigger focus on the accuracy windows). and the original Taiko no Tatsujin does provide simple speed changes, without any mods such as HD or HR.
I think every rhythm game should have an editor (beatmap maker) and a skin maker. People often give up on making their own skins so they could read properly and just download existing skins. I don't know any game that lets you to make your own skin from 0. You have to mess with files a lot instead. Also I think that mania-like games need mods like random, s-random. The first one just swaps the columns which increases the value of every single map by miles. The more keys the more value the map gets. S-random affects literally every note on a map, not just columns. They are so great for practice. You don't need to bother downloading hundreds of maps to get to know as many different patterns as possible.
Big ups on the randoms. I really like how bms utilizes it. The beatmap editor is important, but there's standalone editors out there (Arrowvortex) who could do the job better. Comparing it to piu editor is a no-brainer win, but it also stands it's ground (if it's not already better) against the osu!mania editor, and other editors.
Honestly I think asking for o!taiko to hafe reverse scrolling s just as nitpicky as asking for iidx to have upscroll. Every last bit of a rhythm game's visual appearance matters in gameplay, and thus should all be accounted for. Also, I personally disagree with the notion that timing windows have to be symmetrical, but maybe i'm just used to uneven timing allowing really interesting ways to cheat patterns in piu, such as using step into late bracket instead of twists in some charts
I think both aren't nitpicky. I think your point on piu is somewhat valid, but maybe you could even say that the problem itself springs from other bad game design. Triple notes are fun and all, but if they don't play well or aren't fun to play you should maybe have the option for a mod that doesn't include them instead.
Something I have only seen in Project Diva Future Tone and it's Switch version: PRACTICE mode. No one wants to play through the entire song 500 times to get one shot at that part in the end you haven't figured out yet..
Clone Hero - and it's been ages since I've played it, but I think practicing specific sections has been a thing since the first Guitar Hero. But yeah, it is surprising it's not in more games.
which is why its one of the only "true" rhythm games. In others, its more of a "timing" and memory game as you're watching with your eyes and memorising the sequence, to the rhythm yes, but if you went on a different or new song, blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to learn it in the slightest, whereas rhythm heaven you can.
For me, it’s the stability and consistency of the CONTROLLER that the game uses. Like, it really turns me off when you try your best to hit Perfects but it still gives you a lesser rating or does not register at all. An example is PIU pads- newly shipped machines have unmodded pads that are virtually impossible to play on high levels because you end up missing holds even if you held very tight- or getting a tons of greats, goods, bads It’s a part of the operator’s fault if the pads remains untuned to playable state. Then again, such effort wouldn’t have been necessary if the original maker made sure that the pads are actually highly responsive rather than just being “ok, it does register some notes”
Sometimes it's just the arcade center getting lazy I think... After all rhythm games are nowhere near as profitable as crane catchers and ticket machines. And even if the pads are properly designed, if there are not enough maintenance the pad will go bad sometime.
@@FlameRat_YehLon completely agree with what you said. Other rhythm games all have some kinds of misconfigurations too- being too close, not close enough to walls, mismatched parts etc lol, which in the end is fault of the arcade center.
Yeah, I landed here looking for opinions on a completely different topic but found the video interesting nonetheless. These are indeed quality of life options every rhythm game should try to include.
In the defense of taiko, specifically osu!taiko, a note speed multiplier wouldn't be viable as it would reduce the skill required to play mods like Hard Rock where the only difficulty increase other than the hit window IS the note speed. While a reading comfort zone is subjective, the skill built to allow someone to read the notes faster is not so much.
as a taiko player, i have to agree taiko is played by reading the absolute distance between notes i think that taiko was originally meant to represent note gaps with the same rhythmic equivalents equally as to represent sheet music
I completely agree. After playing taiko a lot and getting a good chunk of skill, I'm pretty SV agnostic. The game is read by looking at the space in between notes for timing. Any good chart is gonna make sure there's decent spacing. My only complaint is that high SV is hard to come back to after taking a break. That's a problem with high SV in general though and not taiko.
Title should be "Accessibility in Rhythm Games" I've been wanting to make a rhythm game for ages and these ideas are always in mind when I come up with a new idea! Great video though!
Unfortunately, Rush was eventually removed in Pump It Up XX because of concerns from song artists and recent contracts not allowing any kind of modifications to songs. Prime 2 still had the feature but was restricted to BanYa songs, a defunct in-house group that hasn't made songs since the Fiesta era. Considering that the mod would continue to not be usable with newer songs and the restrictions made players confused, it was the best option to completely drop Rush altogether.
I used Rush mode on Prime, it was very chaotic but fun, but it was stupid that they removed it, it's just a song speed modifier that can make games quicker and more fun as well, in pretty disappointed to see that
The aesthetics part may seem like a small point, but to me was a huge one. What drew myself and many others into osu was it’s look and simplicity of the UI. Everything looks good and consistent, it’s sorted in a way that makes sense and overall doesn’t seem like a mess. A small detail that makes a huge difference.
It’s sort of funny since I consider all of the games (even Tengoku) as pretty solid games design wise and meanwhile this video implies they’re all bad since they all don’t have *any* of these options like speed modifiers for the games
@@zememerr2329 its not that rhythm heaven is bad, its just not the kind of rhythm game being discussed here. theres a difference between casual rhythm games and competitive ones. he's talking about the competitive ones in this video where every option should be available to the player for improvement purposes.
I’d say if you can’t compete for a visible numeric score, then it’s not the kind of rhythm game that needs this set of design elements in the first place.
@@melodywawichi802 Rhythm Heaven Megamix literally gives you a numeric score based on how accurate your timing was after you complete every single minigame lmao. I agree that maybe rhythm heaven doesn't need these features per se but the 3DS version literally grades you on a 1-100 scale based on accuracy, so I don't think competitiveness is an issue here
Probably said a lot before but I feel like most rhythm games should definitely have a late/early judgement. Very helpful in adjusting your timing mid game in dense/stream songs.
surprised a difficulty rating system wasn't mentioned. most games outside of etterna have pretty bare bones arbitrary difficulty ratings if they have any at all. it's insanely helpful in etterna being able to see the difficult rating for each skillset for every song, and being able to filter to whatever rating you want.
I feel like snap colours should at least be an option in any game. It helps with reading when the notes are too dense, and turns timing into less of a guessing game with unfamiliar patterns. I'd say it helps a lot similarly to how sixteenths or triplets, etc. are grouped together in conventional sheet music
Personally for me, I've always found it a little confusing in the middle of a song having all different coloured notes. This only works well on a dark background as well
When mentioning specific speed changes in osu! you forget that because pp exists, the amount of effort needed to properly build, test and balance pp when using these speed mods far outweighs the potential benefits. I know this because in McOsu, an osu! client available on steam, allows you to do that and it completely breaks pp. I, a nobody have a 1.2k pp play on McOsu because of how badly this effects pp.
TRAINING. MODE. Guitar Hero has done it best from what I've played, and Project Diva is also really good at it, but DJMAX Respect does not and it's kind of irritating when you just want to practice one part that gets you.
There used to be a practice option, but it only appeared in Trilogy once, and I remember it still doesn't allow you to play a specific part you struggle
This one is harder to grok, but difficulty curve in charting. There should never be a time where the only songs playable are either too easy or too hard. I'm a seasoned rhythm game player and tone sphere's hardest difficulty charts have this problem imo.
"Taiko doesn't have a speed mod" >shows osu!taiko Are you f*cking kidding me? Actual Taiko no Tatsujin has a speed mod. And that's like the actual real version of taiko, not a rip-off.
Great video, for me personally what i love in a rhythm game (and pretty much in any other genre) is audio/visual feedback, which is why i love sound voltex for the way the FX buttons modify the songs when you press them and how the lasers move the lane or shake it. It feels like your inputs have an impact on the screen and makes playing the game a lot of fun.
Mods don't only apply on rhythm games, but all devices in general. We should be able to customize certain buttons on our devices, such as the send button of this comment, or the comment button itself. Sometimes a small difference in the placement of buttons can reduce number of errors of hitting the buttons, especially for fast typists.
And the number one rule: Don't have constant HP drain for no reason punishing you for the song itself having a quiet moment Seriously Osu, why did you think that is ok?
Something that StepMania has had for years that I want in all of my rhythm games is the ability to loosen the timing window. PIU also has this, but that game's window is pretty lenient as is. I wouldn't care if this hypothetical timing mod disqualified you from leaderboards, in fact, that'd be a good idea (better idea: separate leaderboards), but I just want to have fun with loose windows instead of struggling with strict ones.
Taiko player here. Nijiiro Version (the newest arcade ver of TnT) features 0.1 increments of scroll speed. Also osu!Taiko is the worst simulator of the game for many reasons such as being unable to adjust scroll speed
rhythm games should explain gameplay terms for ex. jacks or streaming to make new players understand what is going on in the game and how specific patterns should be played. Osu! gameplay tutorial is a good example. I don't know if other rhythm games have gameplay tutorials.
Pattern names are almost always developed and created by communities. This is why you wont see ingame explanations for patterns or related gameplay termonology
I believe that osu is a bad rhythm game Rhythm heaven did the best I guess. There - you depend mostly on rhythm, not some circles or buttons you have to see, react and click
One crucial thing you missed is the ability to play all difficulties. As an experienced player of many games, i hate when I'm interested in a game but have to unlock the hardest difficulties. Looking at you, groove coaster/muse dash
One thing I’ve noticed from playing more tablet/phone rhythm games is that it seems to be easier for companies to fix or include all of these video talking points into a handheld game. There’s just as much variety for mobage rhythm games as there are in their physical counterparts!
I feel it's likely more to do with touchscreens allowing more flexibility in input method than ye old keyboard. Hell, even controller allows more due to its sticks. Unfortunately having a straight on or off without any modification other than what button is on or off is limiting. I could see a rhythm game utilizing modifier keys perhaps though. That could be pretty cool were it executed well, and perhaps there is already one.
As someone who grew up on rock band, I found the ability to change the track speed super helpful, also with rock band 4 allowing you to change how the track looks definitely helps
I'd love to see an Etterna judge system (Even a simplified version) implemented into Clone hero. You could even incentivize players to use it by increasing/decreasing score per note based on the leniency of the window. Flow direction should be in all rhythm games, but also the ability to have vertical flow games (DDR/Clone Hero etc.) be ran in monitor portrait mode resolutions (1080x1920), for those who dislike the amount of dead space on the screen.
The variety of speeds, I definitely agree with are a skill. However, I think everyone should be able to have a base speed multiplier they can use e.g. 1.25x, 1.5x, etc, to read those varying BPM's that are naturally more comfortable for them.
I definitely agree with the aesthetics part. A lot of the fan versions of existing games are so lacking in visuals that I find myself subconsciously not caring to ever try them out.
Remember when the devs of the Simply Love theme decided that removing the audio syncing functionality from the options menu was a good idea? What a joke.
Wow I've been playing taiko for almost four years and it never even crossed my mind that it could basically scroll from left to right lmao would like to see the difference in reading
I would like flashier feedback for hitting best timing per note. Like flashier lights, or pretty exploding graphics. I also love combo splash screens, I miss those from Supernova 2 and DDR X.
Well, that's subjective. As a top-level Taiko player, I prefer not having too much going on to focus on getting good scores. But as I said, it's just personal preference. That's what skins/themes are good for!
@@Mihaugoku This is true, options is key, letting you change every bit is nice. Remove BG, change scroll speed, remove time-stops, change note-skins. For DDR I run simply love just because of all the options, but when I play A20 it kinda throws me off since the options are way more limited.
you mean the judgement line? you can probably change that with a skin. search around or ask in etienne's discord or the etterna discord, im sure someone could help you find one there
Symmetrical timing windows is the biggest part of this that I preach; I noticed GH5 for 360 and PS3 has a huge late hit window, but has an early hit window the size of a tick's butt hair. GH5 for Wii feels more even in my opinion compared to the others.
From what I understand, rush has been removed from Pump It Up because licensing agreements for songs (mostly kpop) would not allow any modification to be made to the song audio. Rate mods distort the music and make it sound worse and music publishers don't appreciate it.
Every game should have M-Mods. I'm glad that Pump finally introduced them in Prime 2. I can't believe DDR still doesn't have them, but almost every other current bemani rhythm game that scrolls has them. Other things I'd love to see in more games: - Chart previews on song select - Selecting rate mods based on BPM rather than a decimal. - Dynamic rate mods (if a song has bpm changes it changes mid song to keep it one constant speed) - [Specifically in DDR] Being able to toggle the announcer on/off. Literally the only bemani game that has one. - Custom visual offsets on a per player basis rather than system wide. - Better sorting/sub-sorting/filtering options. (FFR actually does this really well)
I don't think timing windows should have to be symmetrical There are good reasons for not having symmetrical timing windows like in IIDX and Pump Imo, there shouldn't be the same timing windows for hitting a note way too early rather than way too late if timing windows are too large
In the end, the point of a rhythm game is to hit notes to the rhythm... It's in the name - you're trying to be as close to the middle as possible. Otherwise you're just missing the point..
The one thing I think is missing in most rhythm games is the Edit Mode feature used in the console DDR games. That's the biggest thing that I miss in other rhythm games.
3:35 - Regarding note direction, it's also not just a matter of whether they scroll up, down, or sideways, but the angle they come at is also significant. Most Stepmania-like rhythm games are flat and the arrows scroll either up or down perfectly straight, but games like guitar hero have the notes approach from the background to the foreground, which can be troublesome for some people. I'm pretty good at stepmania, so when a friend invited me to play ro-beats (i know, roblox, kids game, yadda yadda) I figured it'd be pretty easy to play it... but I ended up feeling nauseous, and had to take a break. The arrows start far in the background and then approach to the foreground, and for some reason my eyes and brain just couldn't deal with it and it made me feel gradually more sick and dizzy the longer I went on.
i think every rhythm should have an native option to disable the background/epileptic light stuff it usually has, like having this option would probably give the player more fps in general. it's frustrating how a storyboard/video can potato your fps. yeah i'm talking about that MiLi song mapped by Exile- on osu!std , good thing osu! does have the option to disable it :/
Re: offset, I'm always surprised by how many games give you an option to set a positive or negative offset value in milliseconds, but don't explain what you're actually moving. When I choose +30ms are the objects coming earlier than they used to, or later? Am I moving the notes or the audio track? Not every game is the same
I agree on this one. Pro osu! players say that local and global offsets are the opposite, but where did they get that? I didn't even know it's a thing for quite some time.
Example: ask.fm/Rohulk/answers/134156223067 I feel dumb for asking this, but why is it the opposite? Maybe someone here can answer this.
One offset influences the audio, the other the hitposition. You're very right that it's confusing having two especially when osu doesn't explain they are different.
if it's NOTE offset, then you're moving exactly that: the notes themselves. So a positive value means the notes are delayed, so they will cross the timing window later. Negative value = earlier.
if it's VIDEO offset, then you're moving the timing window. The "video" here usually refers to how late you're hitting the notes (because your display is showing the image output late), and so the timing window is adjusted to account for that. So for a positive value, the window will be pushed down/towards you if it's downwards scrolling, or up/away from you if it's upwards scrolling.
if it's AUDIO offset, then you're moving, well, the audio. The value here usually refers to the actual delay between what the game sees and your audio hardware. So assuming perfect 0ms video, if you tell the game +60ms audio offset, then the game will compensate for that and make the music come 60ms earlier, meaning the actual beat will come BEFORE the note. This one is a little more common for rhythm games that are played on PC, where the audio is in reality usually a few milliseconds later than the video; although most of us will barely notice this delay outside of playing rhythm games.
EDIT: additionally, on PC, video lag is often [virtually] nonexistent (unless you decide to hook your rig up to an HDTV), so when games just say "offset", it's usually the note offset, because setting +60ms note offset or +60ms audio offset ultimately has exactly the same effect: they make the beat and the note sync up to each other.
So true. I'm also really sad when a game only supports one type of offset. I had to purchase a new monitor just to play Project Diva while Guitar Hero never caused me any issues even when playing on HDTVs with crazy lag.
Rhythm game design 101:
1. Have anime
@@Rose_Emp Yeah, and I'm kinda hating it for that.
Like, I just wanna play rhythm games, and not get weird looks from other people.
Kaizato bro if you want no anime try etterna. It’s a very nice game with a sort of minimalist look.
@@TStudiosInc Beat Saber is one of the Best VR games out there
101 = 1 of 1
This popped up in my recommended and I was intrigued to watch even though I have never really played a rhythm game in my life. Anyways, this was such a well put together video and maybe I’ll pick up a game or two in the future!
Hope you do! These games are quite fun and addicting haha
Osu is free to download and play. You can play it with a mouse and keyboard, and the other 3 modes it has only need a keyboard. It's a great way to get into rhythm games.
I see RUclips's recommending actual quality content for once! Haha
I love all the extra options introduced in simply love, they make ITG a lot more comfortable to play and allow for a crazy amount of customization, whenever I play DDR I have a rough time adjusting to no mini or perspective options.
The part where you talked about ratemodding is also very true, ITG naturally has a content deficit at the very upper end (23+), ratemodding really helps people in the upper echelons still improve without having to play the same pool of a couple of songs (or fof).
Great work on that video, I like how you explain your opinions with good arguments. Also nice to see that it seems like we covered almost all your wishes in StepManiaX ;)
as someone who’s only played taiko for most of my rhythm game career, when i heard about speed modification in other games, it was really hard to get my head around. personally, i believe that having maps have speed set by bpm means everyone sees the same thing, and therefore is fair and equal lol. idk tho
Everyone does see the same thing, but everyone has different natural preferences for how fast/slow they can read something! It's certainly equal at face value, but BPM reading varies quite a bit between players overall.
Players can learn how to read really fast/really slow, but it still won't quite beat someone who is already so much more used to it if they were to put the same amount of time into a map.
Yeah, in taiko BPM reading is a skill to be learned while in other games it isn't. For some people slower scroll songs will be easier, and for some they will be harder, it's just a different reading ability.
You mean osu!taiko?
Nice video. I've been playing Stepmania off and on for 15ish years. Assist Tick is a helpful function that generates a noise whenever a note reaches the note receptors. I believe this, along with adjusting the Rate, is something we should see in every rhythm game. Changing the colors of the notes is helpful as well. If I could add a function, I'd add something akin to the ghost racer in driving games. An AI that plays at about the level you played at when you established your most recent high score on a song could play against you and give you something relative to a challenge. It'd be fun to include, and should have skill relative to how you played a song at different rates.
One thing that's been interesting to observe in rhythm games is the evolution of visual clarity/accessibility, especially related to the controller/display interface. Older games like DDR, PIU, IIDX, and Pop'n have fairly unintuitive or difficult to learn note displays. In DDR and PIU, there's a steep learning curve in converting arrows on the screen to directional movement with your feet. Pop'n and IIDX are similar in that the notes are presented in a flat line, but the buttons are offset on the controller, and hand positioning becomes a problem. Everyone that plays them is used to it now, but it's not easy to get started.
More modern games like Jubeat, Osu, Maimai, and Chunithm are much better at this (especially Maimai and Chunithm). The rise of unique screen configurations makes it so that there's a much more direct relationship between what you see and the buttons you press (or even just with touch screens now). Even Sound Voltex is much better than previous Bemani games, because the buttons line up the same way as the screen displays them, and your hands have a more natural "home" position.
3:02 chad ITG player using orb skin lol
calling JDongs a 'chad ITG player' is pretty based
Rock Band does not have one timing w8bdow. It has a dynamic timing window. The timing varies depending on note density
i think the main reason why osu taiko doesn't allow speed modifiers is because of the HD and HR mods?
the whole point of HD is to present a reading challenge, so that players of different skills would benefit from different SV/BPM. Adding a speed modifier defeats the whole process of learning low BPM HD. It's like being able to tweak the AR on osu std and still have your scores ranked.
for HR the point is to make the SV quicker(along with narrowing the hit windows) so it also presents a reading challenge, about how quickly you could read(although with a bigger focus on the accuracy windows).
and the original Taiko no Tatsujin does provide simple speed changes, without any mods such as HD or HR.
Your content is so under exposed! I love this channel.
I think every rhythm game should have an editor (beatmap maker) and a skin maker. People often give up on making their own skins so they could read properly and just download existing skins. I don't know any game that lets you to make your own skin from 0. You have to mess with files a lot instead.
Also I think that mania-like games need mods like random, s-random. The first one just swaps the columns which increases the value of every single map by miles. The more keys the more value the map gets. S-random affects literally every note on a map, not just columns. They are so great for practice. You don't need to bother downloading hundreds of maps to get to know as many different patterns as possible.
Big ups on the randoms. I really like how bms utilizes it. The beatmap editor is important, but there's standalone editors out there (Arrowvortex) who could do the job better. Comparing it to piu editor is a no-brainer win, but it also stands it's ground (if it's not already better) against the osu!mania editor, and other editors.
I’m still staying with Taiko no tatsujin
All of this only talk about SENSOR-BASED rhythm games. What about COMMAND-BASED rhythm games (Parapa, Bust A Groove, Audition Online)
This needs to be shared like wildfire
It is I, Buro. From Muse Dash. Praise me and my cuteness!
no
In my opinion DDR does the best for settings. Also, Beat Saber not having notespeed mods pisses me off.
same its always the slower beatsaber maps that i cant read
Beatsabers scoring is also a bit weird
A scoring system that incentivizes good performance and doesn't conflict with any potential ranking system. *cough* osu *cough*
6:12 game?
Ward, i want to know as well
Game Name:Malody
@@yuudachi6366 The hero we need, cheers!
Question: Why are u still ignoring Beat Saber?
Honestly I think asking for o!taiko to hafe reverse scrolling s just as nitpicky as asking for iidx to have upscroll. Every last bit of a rhythm game's visual appearance matters in gameplay, and thus should all be accounted for.
Also, I personally disagree with the notion that timing windows have to be symmetrical, but maybe i'm just used to uneven timing allowing really interesting ways to cheat patterns in piu, such as using step into late bracket instead of twists in some charts
I think both aren't nitpicky. I think your point on piu is somewhat valid, but maybe you could even say that the problem itself springs from other bad game design. Triple notes are fun and all, but if they don't play well or aren't fun to play you should maybe have the option for a mod that doesn't include them instead.
I was literally thinking about if you could do a specific % speed in osu today, I wish it was a thing.
you can in osu! lazer
Its a feature from osu!lazer
Designer: What direction should the notes come from?
Stepmania: From the bottom
IIDX: From the top
Taiko: From the right
Groove Coaster: Yes
bro I was thinking about that this entire video
Project diva also just says yes come from literally everywhere
I mean, lanota, maimai...
cyTus:no
I appreciate the Rotom pfp
Something I have only seen in Project Diva Future Tone and it's Switch version: PRACTICE mode.
No one wants to play through the entire song 500 times to get one shot at that part in the end you haven't figured out yet..
Clone Hero - and it's been ages since I've played it, but I think practicing specific sections has been a thing since the first Guitar Hero.
But yeah, it is surprising it's not in more games.
Beat saber has that as well and it's borderline required.
Also most CS DDR games have a practice mode as well IIRC
i believe Taiko has it as well
This is kind of a joke comment but geometry dash has a practice mode as well, which in my opinion is useful but I just dont use it
@@otakukent3079 Well.. You are right. But I prefer start positions which is also great practice.
Meanwhile, we have Rhythm Heaven where the game *is* the design.
Its cleaver
which is why its one of the only "true" rhythm games. In others, its more of a "timing" and memory game as you're watching with your eyes and memorising the sequence, to the rhythm yes, but if you went on a different or new song, blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to learn it in the slightest, whereas rhythm heaven you can.
@@asdfniofanuiafabuiohui3977 rhythm heaven explaining why rhythm heaven is the only true rhythm game
@@asdfniofanuiafabuiohui3977 there was a story of a blind kid who managed to beat rhythm tengoku.
Bet he didnt do as well on osu lmao
Haven’t herd that name in years
For me, it’s the stability and consistency of the CONTROLLER that the game uses.
Like, it really turns me off when you try your best to hit Perfects but it still gives you a lesser rating or does not register at all.
An example is PIU pads- newly shipped machines have unmodded pads that are virtually impossible to play on high levels because you end up missing holds even if you held very tight- or getting a tons of greats, goods, bads
It’s a part of the operator’s fault if the pads remains untuned to playable state. Then again, such effort wouldn’t have been necessary if the original maker made sure that the pads are actually highly responsive rather than just being “ok, it does register some notes”
Sometimes it's just the arcade center getting lazy I think... After all rhythm games are nowhere near as profitable as crane catchers and ticket machines. And even if the pads are properly designed, if there are not enough maintenance the pad will go bad sometime.
@@FlameRat_YehLon completely agree with what you said. Other rhythm games all have some kinds of misconfigurations too- being too close, not close enough to walls, mismatched parts etc lol, which in the end is fault of the arcade center.
@@duaf1xd362 And just how loud nearby machines are...
Robeats lacking a leaderboard is definitely a huge problem for top players.
Edit: please stop replying this is a joke lmao
Leaderboards! So simple yet essential
Not exactly the most serious of rhythm games but I catch your drift (also osu mania exists sooo....)
As is, the leaderboard can easily be exploited.
I don't know what to expect tbh, the game ranking is heavily based on gears not skills, p2w. I still enjoy the maps tho lol
the fact that it is p2w is a huge no-no
This is less of a "game design 101"
And more of a "Important things that every game needs"
Good video though.
Those are the same thing
Yeah, I landed here looking for opinions on a completely different topic but found the video interesting nonetheless. These are indeed quality of life options every rhythm game should try to include.
I’m sorry, but I’m really upset because Taiko no Tatsujin DOES HAVE A SPEED MOD but you only considered osu!taiko which doesn’t.
Thing is: osu!taiko is the most played version of ToT. So he's *technically right*
>osu!taiko is the most played version of TnT
Found the american idiot that think's only his country exists
I know that made me so angry. Real actual Taiko has a f*cking speed mod. Fucking osu players
This. Pretty disappointing.
Radio Ancap-socialista Noruegês literally no context about America? Its a fucking shit game mode who cares
In the defense of taiko, specifically osu!taiko, a note speed multiplier wouldn't be viable as it would reduce the skill required to play mods like Hard Rock where the only difficulty increase other than the hit window IS the note speed. While a reading comfort zone is subjective, the skill built to allow someone to read the notes faster is not so much.
as a taiko player, i have to agree
taiko is played by reading the absolute distance between notes
i think that taiko was originally meant to represent note gaps with the same rhythmic equivalents equally as to represent sheet music
Yeah sv maps are hard. Also hi Dargin
I completely agree. After playing taiko a lot and getting a good chunk of skill, I'm pretty SV agnostic. The game is read by looking at the space in between notes for timing. Any good chart is gonna make sure there's decent spacing. My only complaint is that high SV is hard to come back to after taking a break. That's a problem with high SV in general though and not taiko.
Unfortunately original Taiko no Tatsujin has the speed mod, so your argument falls kinda flat.
@@chrisheartman9263 I specified osu!taiko
Title should be "Accessibility in Rhythm Games"
I've been wanting to make a rhythm game for ages and these ideas are always in mind when I come up with a new idea!
Great video though!
Unfortunately, Rush was eventually removed in Pump It Up XX because of concerns from song artists and recent contracts not allowing any kind of modifications to songs. Prime 2 still had the feature but was restricted to BanYa songs, a defunct in-house group that hasn't made songs since the Fiesta era. Considering that the mod would continue to not be usable with newer songs and the restrictions made players confused, it was the best option to completely drop Rush altogether.
I used Rush mode on Prime, it was very chaotic but fun, but it was stupid that they removed it, it's just a song speed modifier that can make games quicker and more fun as well, in pretty disappointed to see that
no customizable input
no customizable ui
no background toggle
no steady bpm
im a dirty casual project diva player ~
Input is somewhat customizable
Otherwise nothing else
Setting offset should be accessible in ANY rhythm game.
Bemani is too evil for that
in iidx and sdvx you can change your offset
Also, a good processor is needed
Taiko: The scroll speed is affected by the BPM
SV: *you forgot me*
Resolution: *nobody remembers me right?*
The aesthetics part may seem like a small point, but to me was a huge one. What drew myself and many others into osu was it’s look and simplicity of the UI. Everything looks good and consistent, it’s sorted in a way that makes sense and overall doesn’t seem like a mess. A small detail that makes a huge difference.
The fact that Rhythm Heaven wasn't even mentioned in this video is immensely saddening to me
It’s sort of funny since I consider all of the games (even Tengoku) as pretty solid games design wise and meanwhile this video implies they’re all bad since they all don’t have *any* of these options like speed modifiers for the games
@@zememerr2329 its not that rhythm heaven is bad, its just not the kind of rhythm game being discussed here. theres a difference between casual rhythm games and competitive ones. he's talking about the competitive ones in this video where every option should be available to the player for improvement purposes.
I’d say if you can’t compete for a visible numeric score, then it’s not the kind of rhythm game that needs this set of design elements in the first place.
@@melodywawichi802 Rhythm Heaven Megamix literally gives you a numeric score based on how accurate your timing was after you complete every single minigame lmao. I agree that maybe rhythm heaven doesn't need these features per se but the 3DS version literally grades you on a 1-100 scale based on accuracy, so I don't think competitiveness is an issue here
Probably said a lot before but I feel like most rhythm games should definitely have a late/early judgement. Very helpful in adjusting your timing mid game in dense/stream songs.
No mention of Project DIVA any where. Kind of disappointing...
The entire game is made to advertise the vocaloids lol but yeah it's still a rythme game don't know why it's not here.
5:41
That's a distracting foreground element, not a background element.
surprised a difficulty rating system wasn't mentioned. most games outside of etterna have pretty bare bones arbitrary difficulty ratings if they have any at all. it's insanely helpful in etterna being able to see the difficult rating for each skillset for every song, and being able to filter to whatever rating you want.
*looks at quaver*
can't tell if you're being sarcastic since it does literally everything he goes over lol?
@@xeronimity5947 maybe that's his point
I feel like snap colours should at least be an option in any game. It helps with reading when the notes are too dense, and turns timing into less of a guessing game with unfamiliar patterns.
I'd say it helps a lot similarly to how sixteenths or triplets, etc. are grouped together in conventional sheet music
ig taiko scroll is similar to that because of the bpm scale
the gaps are like the snap colors, but snap is probably more readable
Personally for me, I've always found it a little confusing in the middle of a song having all different coloured notes. This only works well on a dark background as well
When mentioning specific speed changes in osu! you forget that because pp exists, the amount of effort needed to properly build, test and balance pp when using these speed mods far outweighs the potential benefits. I know this because in McOsu, an osu! client available on steam, allows you to do that and it completely breaks pp. I, a nobody have a 1.2k pp play on McOsu because of how badly this effects pp.
TRAINING. MODE.
Guitar Hero has done it best from what I've played, and Project Diva is also really good at it, but DJMAX Respect does not and it's kind of irritating when you just want to practice one part that gets you.
There used to be a practice option, but it only appeared in Trilogy once, and I remember it still doesn't allow you to play a specific part you struggle
off topic: I've been playing ddr a good portion of my life but i can't grasp how people could read charts like this 3:28
training eye speed + hand speed, takes a long time but goes a long way, basically.
9:05 jesus look at that ring finger... They would not let a girl down with that one lmao
Ye olde finger a girl joke
Wonders fingers are built different
This one is harder to grok, but difficulty curve in charting. There should never be a time where the only songs playable are either too easy or too hard. I'm a seasoned rhythm game player and tone sphere's hardest difficulty charts have this problem imo.
"Taiko doesn't have a speed mod" >shows osu!taiko
Are you f*cking kidding me? Actual Taiko no Tatsujin has a speed mod. And that's like the actual real version of taiko, not a rip-off.
Great video, for me personally what i love in a rhythm game (and pretty much in any other genre) is audio/visual feedback, which is why i love sound voltex for the way the FX buttons modify the songs when you press them and how the lasers move the lane or shake it. It feels like your inputs have an impact on the screen and makes playing the game a lot of fun.
Mods don't only apply on rhythm games, but all devices in general. We should be able to customize certain buttons on our devices, such as the send button of this comment, or the comment button itself. Sometimes a small difference in the placement of buttons can reduce number of errors of hitting the buttons, especially for fast typists.
And the number one rule: Don't have constant HP drain for no reason punishing you for the song itself having a quiet moment
Seriously Osu, why did you think that is ok?
5:49 bruh look at beasttrollmc wearing a rocket costume
5:17 ayyy thats my boy crackhead vaxei
Note speed changes are the worst gimmick. I will actively disown songs or charts if they have them
Something that StepMania has had for years that I want in all of my rhythm games is the ability to loosen the timing window. PIU also has this, but that game's window is pretty lenient as is.
I wouldn't care if this hypothetical timing mod disqualified you from leaderboards, in fact, that'd be a good idea (better idea: separate leaderboards), but I just want to have fun with loose windows instead of struggling with strict ones.
Taiko player here.
Nijiiro Version (the newest arcade ver of TnT) features 0.1 increments of scroll speed. Also osu!Taiko is the worst simulator of the game for many reasons such as being unable to adjust scroll speed
rhythm games should explain gameplay terms for ex. jacks or streaming to make new players understand what is going on in the game and how specific patterns should be played. Osu! gameplay tutorial is a good example. I don't know if other rhythm games have gameplay tutorials.
Pattern names are almost always developed and created by communities. This is why you wont see ingame explanations for patterns or related gameplay termonology
@@taggerung_ Oh, I see
Truly this man is not biased, he mentioned how bad etterna looks even tho he mains the game. The only thing quaver has over etterna is aesthetic.
I believe that osu is a bad rhythm game
Rhythm heaven did the best I guess. There - you depend mostly on rhythm, not some circles or buttons you have to see, react and click
One crucial thing you missed is the ability to play all difficulties. As an experienced player of many games, i hate when I'm interested in a game but have to unlock the hardest difficulties. Looking at you, groove coaster/muse dash
One thing I’ve noticed from playing more tablet/phone rhythm games is that it seems to be easier for companies to fix or include all of these video talking points into a handheld game. There’s just as much variety for mobage rhythm games as there are in their physical counterparts!
I feel it's likely more to do with touchscreens allowing more flexibility in input method than ye old keyboard. Hell, even controller allows more due to its sticks. Unfortunately having a straight on or off without any modification other than what button is on or off is limiting. I could see a rhythm game utilizing modifier keys perhaps though. That could be pretty cool were it executed well, and perhaps there is already one.
For a second, i thought you were going to design a room with a rhythm game theme to it
As someone who grew up on rock band, I found the ability to change the track speed super helpful, also with rock band 4 allowing you to change how the track looks definitely helps
Fun fact after 3 years, pop'n music does have an up scroll option, it's one of the ojama
I'd love to see an Etterna judge system (Even a simplified version) implemented into Clone hero. You could even incentivize players to use it by increasing/decreasing score per note based on the leniency of the window.
Flow direction should be in all rhythm games, but also the ability to have vertical flow games (DDR/Clone Hero etc.) be ran in monitor portrait mode resolutions (1080x1920), for those who dislike the amount of dead space on the screen.
most games: go down. step mania: go up. taiko: from the right. groove coaster: all directions on a 2d plane. beat saber: *yes.*
I wanna play sound vortex it looks fun but idk where to get the game or the controller
To be fair for Taiko part of the challenge is the reading aspect, like part of the difficulty comes from the variety of speed of the notes coming.
The variety of speeds, I definitely agree with are a skill. However, I think everyone should be able to have a base speed multiplier they can use e.g. 1.25x, 1.5x, etc, to read those varying BPM's that are naturally more comfortable for them.
@@EtienneYT ah I see what your saying. For Taiko no tatsujin you can speed it up by 2x 4x etc, and osu has dt and ht but thats about it
@@EtienneYT well you could technically just go into the editor and change the scroll speed
osu!lazer actually provides you with seamless speedup options
I definitely agree with the aesthetics part. A lot of the fan versions of existing games are so lacking in visuals that I find myself subconsciously not caring to ever try them out.
damn you’re underrated
Remember when the devs of the Simply Love theme decided that removing the audio syncing functionality from the options menu was a good idea? What a joke.
Wow I've been playing taiko for almost four years and it never even crossed my mind that it could basically scroll from left to right lmao would like to see the difference in reading
I would like flashier feedback for hitting best timing per note. Like flashier lights, or pretty exploding graphics.
I also love combo splash screens, I miss those from Supernova 2 and DDR X.
Well, that's subjective. As a top-level Taiko player, I prefer not having too much going on to focus on getting good scores. But as I said, it's just personal preference. That's what skins/themes are good for!
@@Mihaugoku This is true, options is key, letting you change every bit is nice. Remove BG, change scroll speed, remove time-stops, change note-skins. For DDR I run simply love just because of all the options, but when I play A20 it kinda throws me off since the options are way more limited.
i literally can not play Etterna due to the strumbar showing absolutely no feedback whatsoever whenever you hit a note, not even a little note glow.
you mean the judgement line? you can probably change that with a skin. search around or ask in etienne's discord or the etterna discord, im sure someone could help you find one there
3:58 game name please
@Wong Xin Hui Thanks :D
Well you'd hate half of Cytus, it just goes up and down
Symmetrical timing windows is the biggest part of this that I preach; I noticed GH5 for 360 and PS3 has a huge late hit window, but has an early hit window the size of a tick's butt hair. GH5 for Wii feels more even in my opinion compared to the others.
The "sample method" has been in Lunatic Rave 2 for as long as it's around so at lear 15 years although it maight not be as sophisticated
From what I understand, rush has been removed from Pump It Up because licensing agreements for songs (mostly kpop) would not allow any modification to be made to the song audio. Rate mods distort the music and make it sound worse and music publishers don't appreciate it.
Every game should have M-Mods. I'm glad that Pump finally introduced them in Prime 2. I can't believe DDR still doesn't have them, but almost every other current bemani rhythm game that scrolls has them.
Other things I'd love to see in more games:
- Chart previews on song select
- Selecting rate mods based on BPM rather than a decimal.
- Dynamic rate mods (if a song has bpm changes it changes mid song to keep it one constant speed)
- [Specifically in DDR] Being able to toggle the announcer on/off. Literally the only bemani game that has one.
- Custom visual offsets on a per player basis rather than system wide.
- Better sorting/sub-sorting/filtering options. (FFR actually does this really well)
Very surprised I didn’t hear anything about beat saber
Customizable Taiko speed would be a mess in lots of charts like DEBSTEP :^(
FINALLY! a yhoutuber that doesnt mention guitar hero and make it like 90% of their video. oh and rock band.
what about the gta san andreas mission on the beach?
I don't think timing windows should have to be symmetrical
There are good reasons for not having symmetrical timing windows like in IIDX and Pump
Imo, there shouldn't be the same timing windows for hitting a note way too early rather than way too late if timing windows are too large
In the end, the point of a rhythm game is to hit notes to the rhythm... It's in the name - you're trying to be as close to the middle as possible. Otherwise you're just missing the point..
The one thing I think is missing in most rhythm games is the Edit Mode feature used in the console DDR games.
That's the biggest thing that I miss in other rhythm games.
MaiMai is honestly so underrated it's crazy
Do you think Beatsaber is a serious rhyhtm game like Mania or Etterna? Would be a cool topic for a video
implying osu!mania is a serious rhythm game
Where's Cytus II💔?
5:16 map?
0:20 Pandora Boxxx humm. Why not pick remaster if u want to show the hardest
Zac agreed
I will take everything stated into consideration for my game, even if it's not a VSRG, thank you Etienne, you are the best.
3:35 - Regarding note direction, it's also not just a matter of whether they scroll up, down, or sideways, but the angle they come at is also significant.
Most Stepmania-like rhythm games are flat and the arrows scroll either up or down perfectly straight, but games like guitar hero have the notes approach from the background to the foreground, which can be troublesome for some people.
I'm pretty good at stepmania, so when a friend invited me to play ro-beats (i know, roblox, kids game, yadda yadda) I figured it'd be pretty easy to play it... but I ended up feeling nauseous, and had to take a break.
The arrows start far in the background and then approach to the foreground, and for some reason my eyes and brain just couldn't deal with it and it made me feel gradually more sick and dizzy the longer I went on.
i think every rhythm should have an native option to disable the background/epileptic light stuff it usually has, like having this option would probably give the player more fps in general. it's frustrating how a storyboard/video can potato your fps.
yeah i'm talking about that MiLi song mapped by Exile- on osu!std , good thing osu! does have the option to disable it :/
Imo rhythm games should utilize button presses or something of that kind (starting a laser in sdvx) on the rhythm. So not like how ctb does it
00:01 Skin?
2:10 so you show the fake taiko instead of the real one?
Listen, Osu doesn't OWN taiko since osu is a fucking FAN GAME