finally someone noticed lol. I dont know how she ended up there, i saw it while editing at 2am but was too tired to re record, so i decided it would be a funny easter egg.
19:53 I once saw a tumblr post headcanoning that Henry initially joined the Shepherds as a spy for Validar but decided he liked them more than the Grimleal so every correspondence he ever sent was just a mess of puns with no relevant information, and I fully accept that as my own headcanon.
19:47 Funnily enough, Tharja doesn't join because of Robin. Chrom talks to her, and she basically joins because she doesn't want to fight for Gangrel. I can only guess how many people didn't use her, only for her Robin obsession to come up in the end credits and leave them confused since the two wouldn't have even had a conversation.
@@J.R.Unbound Robin being able to recruit Tharja (they can't) is such an insane Mandela effect, I had to search multiple times to convince myself it isn't a thing. And I even played awakening
“Joshua who joins because of Natasia” TMGC brainrot is real and amazing. I also sometimes mix up characters in my head due to loving my TMGC scrimblos.
@@DaniDoyle Dani, you mean milkmen right? You mean milkmen right?! Anyway, did you ever think of a TMGC unit tier list (if Leila isn't in A tier then I'll be angy, hur-dur)?
yukimura too as mikotos “Personal Tactician” could be counted, add that onto the fact that Gunter, Silas and Kaze either become retainers or act as a retainer-lite and my god 😭 for some reason until it was laid out I thought fates didn’t have as much as it did
I think the reason people notice it more with Fates and Engage is due to the sheer amount of lords there making it stand out a lot. Like, in something like fe6 you dont really notice cause theres only 4 people max you could qualify as a lord and each has a different number of people they could classify as retainers/knights (bonus points for all their retainers being potty trained unlike engage's). Meanwhile in Fates and Engage you see this pattern play out 9 whole times so you notice it a lot more and it feels more agregious.
I think it's both how often it happens in Fates and Engage, and that the game's have them say out loud "These are my retainers." or "I'm person's retainer." almost every time just drawing attention to it.
There's also Bartre's support with him where Bartre tries to get Eliwood to pay Dorcas more to help heal Natalie's (Dorcas' wife's) longstanding illness. What a bro.
I love how certain retainers break out of that role by having a distinct personality that doesn't revolve around their lord. Like how Citrinne is a retainer but she's also a rich landowner in her 30's who is definitely the type of excessive that imported potty trained birds even though she has maids to make sure that everything stays perfectly luxurious and clean. Basically engage solved the retainer problem by making the retainers funny caricatures of themselves.
I feel like the biggest issue is just that Engage nearly wholesale repeats the formula from fates (among many things it took from fates). Eight royals, two big brothers, two big sisters, two little sisters, two little brothers, each with two retainers with the only shake up being splitting them across four royal lines instead of just 2. Hell this also applies to Alear, the only thing they're missing is Veyle having two explicit retainers.
Panne’s reason to join could be summarized as “I knew it’d be a good idea to get here, something felt off” and then that was it. One could say she was indebted to Emmeryn (or in lesbians with her) but her reason to join was just a hunch that something bad was gonna happen.
I really love Steamed Sam's video "Fire Emblem Recruitment". I see your point, that you could say it were mostly knights and mercenaries in older games, but the army still felt more like a potty trained drunken posse. About the Fates retainer dynamic. I love how it shows the difference between Nohr and Hoshido. While lots of hoshidan retainers are from families who were in in the royal family's service for generations, the nohrian royals just picked theirs of the street.
There’s a lot of this video that I agree with, like I definitely feel like placing the blame for this entirely on retainers isn’t fair, and only serves to further obscure the problem. The lack of interesting recruitment scenarios and generally poorer writing (such as leaning more into the quirkier side of tropes) hurts the characterisation of units as you’ve said. A big problem isn’t necessarily the units themselves, but rather the fact that in fates and engage they continuously join in groups of 3 where the spotlight for characterisation is shone on one character while the retainers get shafted. The frequency with which this happens is also a problem as this lack of diversity of join conditions/scenarios further compounds the repetitiveness making the game overall feel much more formulaic. Even if the dynamic between lord and retainer is explored through supports, the initial establishing of these units as all having this particular dynamic means that they feel very samey. The quirkiness of these characters is also a problem as it tends to make them feel less part of a greater whole and more like individual trios, reinforcing the lack of cohesion. I think the way you’ve laid the other games’ tiers out is interesting as it kinda highlights this. Units who join Marth/Chrom/Ike/Eirika etc feel more like they’re actually joining an army to me. Marth’s soldiers for instance contains the original members of his army, Hardin’s Wolfguard and Nyna’s knights. These plus Minerva and her Whitewings would feel more like retainers in later games. The frequency is also a problem as mentioned. Having units join who are members of larger, story established groups like the Greil Mercs or Shepherds feels more natural compared to the constant 3-3-3-3… and it helps that these groups and members are generally established beforehand. All the shepherds besides Sully are present for cutscenes to show off their personalities before they join, and they all join staggered with a chance to make a mark for themselves instead of as groups (Virion, Cordelia and Libra are not shepherds btw, I feel like some anti-Awakening bias was showing in that section lol). Same with the Greil Mercs and a lot of the units in earlier games. …The problem with retainers as they’ve been for Fates/Engage is that they basically just… exist. Hell, the first 6 royal retainers of engage basically exist for combat tutorials more than characterisation, and they don’t actually feel like they’re part of a larger kingdom. This is compared to recruiting standard foot soldiers, mercs, conscripted vs volunteer common folk etc with individual motivations whose existence at least makes you feel like this is part of a larger world. Even in terms of unit recruitment, it’s not a necessity for them to be red units, but just joining solo as blue in turn 2+, or in a different part of the map behind enemy lines adds a lot compared to pre/post map with no fanfare. Also, potty trained (I generally find comment codewords a bit cringe though).
The codewords are because there are people who are commenting essays without watching the video, since personally I don't think its worth my time to respond to someone who didn't watch (especially since before I started using the codewords, I frequently got comments of "you're wrong because [proceeds to say basically what I said in the video]"
You know, that’s fair enough actually. I guess I’m just jaded about it being associated with people trying to artificially inflate engagement/run giveaways etc. Your reasoning actually makes a lot of sense.
@@declanm810 an understandable thing to be jaded about! I'd be lying if I said I don't think it boosts engagement, as there are people who just comment the codeword and nothing else, and that does (at least if the algorithm is to be believed) help me in sone way, but the main motivation is just so I can know who to ignore. Plus sometimes people find funny ways to work the codeword in, which makes me chuckle.
I agree that Engage's free-form supports (due to a lack of obligatory marriage) made a lot of units feel less like retainers once you're past their intro chapter. Just to pick one off the top of my head, Citrinne: - Gets into difficult political discussions with her cousin Diamant - Reveals herself as the Brodian CIA with Yunaka - Talks about nepotism with Chloe - Talks about her worries for her country's future with Seadall - Gets into a discussion about worship and bootlicking with Veyle None of which have anything to do with Alcryst or Lapis
When I realized what post you were talking about partway through the explanation I wish you could have heard the way I cackled in excitement, like "oh it's about THIS post". Anyways, great coverage and analysis. It's always confused me when people complain about "one-note characters" as if it's exclusive to one or two games in the series. Like, we've always had one-note characters. You can either love my boy Boucheron as he is, or you can stay in your lane about it lol
I think that Engage's retainers are more noticible because they follow the Fates structure, so they could be considered formulaic in a way, and that there is no route split to justify why half you would need that most units have a connection to each side (Exept for Nyx, she is conquest only and has no reason to not join you in birthright, meaning that you don't have her in birthright because you don't happen to cross paths with her)
Because I now apparently relate all FE content I watch to my still-hypothetical-but-slightly-less-so hack, this got me thinking about why characters join your team in my hack. I think my favorite reason why any character in my hack wants to team up with you is “supernatural entity who has been left to guard a relic for untold ages is very very very lonely and wants to have friends.” And don’t worry, this fella is potty trained.
Pan owed a debt to Emmeryn. Gaius, aside from the promise of candy, wasn't willing to assassinate the Exalt. Tharja couldn’t have cared less about Gangrel, the Shepherds pulling up had just peaked her interest. Henry was under Mustafa's command, the general from the chapter after Emmeryn dies, and knew several of the early game commanders.
Stefan in FE9 is really bizarre. He says he wants to talk more with Lethe/Mordecai. They say they can't chat because there's a battle on. He says, fine, I'll help you win faster (not likely for a footlocked, mechanically beorc unit in the desert on the opposite side of the map from Muarim) and then... doesn't have any conversation with Lethe/Mordecai afterwards. He doesn't even have supports with Lethe, meaning they never speak another word to each other on-screen. And then Stefan has an OPTIONAL conversation with Ike where he MIGHT train him a bit, nothing to do with joining the Greil Mercs or anything. But that's secret units for you I guess.
3:26 "some of the writing is cleaned up since we only have a fan translation of FE1 and FE3..." there actually *is* an official localization of FE1! it was released on the switch online store, for some truly incomprehensible reason it was a limited release back in 2021 despite being a digital release and so was taken off the store I still have my copy on my switch and play it sometimes, but to my knowledge it hasn't been released again and is still unavailable. I truly have no idea why
A few* thoughts about FE7 (because nerd brain go zoom at 5am): - Literally changes nothing, but Dorcas and Bartre are being paid as mercenaries, as per their support conversation. Bartre thinks Dorcas is being underpaid. - Wallace is fun because he's an Ex-Retainer (Former Knight-Commander of Caelin; position taken by Eagler and then Kent following the Rebellion.) turned actual retainer (Upon swearing himself to Lyn) turned Ex-Retainer (Says he got bored and left, but Lyn Support reveals elsewise). I would say he's technically part of an Allied Army (Caelin), but since he serves Lyn's House (The Marquess of Caelin)...could really go either way. - Wil and Florina both fall into that same nebulous category: Wil just decides to jimp in and help during Lyn Mode, but becomes a sworn man to House Caelin by the end of Lyn Mode. Florina is a mercnary, but she's also Lyn's BFF and/or lesbian lover depending on your current mood. Also she ends up training to be a Knight of Caelin. - Technically both Harken and Isadora are retainers of Eliwood when you consider him the successor to the Soon-to-be/Now-dead Elbert. Even if not, they are knights of his realm, and directly charged as knights to his noble house. Isadora is a little flexible as she is the retainer of his mother, Isadora, to whom she then bestows upon Eliwood as a guardian (thus now making her Eliwood's retainer). Harken, meanwhile, just sorta--went crazy, but is still a Knight of Pherae. - Hawkeye as a retainer is--wrong? He's the Guardian of the Desert, unless you are counting him as a retainer to...the Desert, or to either Athos or to Pent at the most extreme? He'd probably be best in the 'Hates the BF' category...but really he's there because Athos told him so...I guess that makes him Athos' Retainer...? 🤔 - Raven is a mercenary, but doesn't join because he is on...not sure how that'd really fall in. Guy and Erk are even more nebulous as Guy is just a hungry boi who needs food badly, and Erk is more of a magical student being made to take on odd jobs because his mentor (Pent) is a weird dude. - Priscilla is...not a mercenary at all, and is actually the adopted daughter of an Etrurian nobleman who was being escorted by Erk when they were stopped in Laus. She was looking for her brother, as she heard of someone in the area who matched his appearance. She'd fit in the "Knows Someone in your Army" Category better. - Lucius is just a wandering dude who wants to help people. He has no allegiance to any army or faction. He follows his friend and/or Gay lover Raven (depending on your current mood) around and tries to keep him from being a Murder Hobo...but that's really it. In Lyn Mode, he joins because he sees a Child (Nils) being bullied and decides to politely give the BF The Hands (So I guess he'd fit in that category?), but then in Eliwood/Hector Mode he joins because he knows Raven (he cannot be recruited with Lyn or her retainers; only with Raven). - Heath surrenders to you when spoken to, then deserts from a band of mercenaries and joins you for free. This makes him a mercenary, he's also kind of an odd thing as he's actually a deserter from Bern. Doesn't fit in any other category you made though, unless you turned the Canas category into a 'Joins for some other reason' category...which isn't as fun because Canas just being a dude who wants to jump onto your boat to check out the SPOOKY ISLE is funny. ================================ In short, I think the FE7 cast is still pretty balanced. Even if you were to expand the retainer list with those people listed, I love that a fair bit of these added people either don't start out as retainers, or they are Retainers but go off on some sort of Murderhobo Quest: Wallace: "MURDER EVERY BANDIT THAT MADE LYNDIS SAD" or Harken: "MY LORD DIED SO I AM GOING TO MURDER EVERYONE WHO- oh, it's my Lord's son...I AM GOING TO MURDER EVERYONE IN HIS WAY.".
I think obviously the issue isn’t inherent to the idea of retainers. Like any of these characters could be interesting if they were incorporated better, the problem is that the game treats them like they’re insignificant, like they don’t have a reason to be where they are except general allegiances, tons of them are motivated to fight by duty instead of personal motives. And pretty much none of them have something going on at the side. Like the Awakening units in Fates, they’re there to help Corrin but in Birthright they can be killed by the Hoshidan army without a hint of their motivation to combat Ananokos. If Chloé was somehow related to a villain, or if we ever went to Kagetsu’s nation and he saw his family, etc, they wouldn’t feel as motivationless or uninvolved. It’s really more of a general writing issue than specifically “retainer bad.” Although I do definitely wish there were more interesting recruit methods.
Unfortunately this is gonna kinda always be a problem to some extent I feel because of the basic reality of permadeath. Put bluntly, Chloe can't be allowed to have plot relevance after chapter 4 because she should have very well gotten herself killed during that chapter. I'm not saying "remove permadeath" of course, it's important to the series overall. Of course, character-specific paralogues like we saw in 3 Houses are the perfect opportunity for this kind of thing, but sadly Engage had to have all those nostalgiabait paralogues.
I mean, engage has a solution to this problem baked in, with the secondary nobles. Is Celine "dies" before the end of ch6, in the story she retreats so she can still appear in cutscenes. But after her final piece of plot relevance, she will actually Die if she is killed. Even if you don't like this solution, there are others in older games. Joshua and Cormag both have ties to major villians in sacred stones, but if they die before you reach those villians, you just don't get that portion of the story. Missing the backstory for Caelech doesn't meaningfully change the overall Sacred Stones plot, but Joshua being tied to him (and Ismarre) is still relevant to the story.
@@MinoriGaming I mean I personally think that’s not really an issue. Engage doesn’t even really have that excuse due to the royal heirs having plot armor, but also I’d add that an appeal to permadeath is if it could actually change the story, maybe not so much the ending is different but it’d be really neat if playing through deaths got you into different scenarios, but in Engage permadeath has the narrative weight of a Pokémon nuzlocke, your favorite character might die, and that sucks, but it doesn’t really change the story in game. I kinda think though that permadeath isn’t an important aspect of FE and if it is the reasons the stories aren’t good (which I don’t think it is) then they should just take it out.
@@MinoriGaming Variable scenes depending on who's alive aren't a groundbreaking concept, you can look to something like Joshua's character in Sacred Stones for an example, where he has a couple of unique scenes on Eirika's route if he's alive Not everyone can get that, but still There is one thing everyone CAN get though, and that's boss conversations (also 3H gave every character new lines in the monastery each chapter which doesn't solve the issue, but helps them feel at least a bit more involved to an extent)
Sure, Harken joins you because Elliwood. Sure, Kellam joins because Shepherds, but regardless of how memorable their recruitment is or isn't, it doesn't feel like a repeated formula. Meanwhile getting Sakura or Timerra means getting their posse as a package. It is fine if it happens once, like Forde/Kyle, but as often as Fates and Engage do it? That starts grating on first impressions.
I feel there's a distinction between how older games would give you soldiers that are a part of the realm's army and the retainer structure Fates and Engage use. The former feel like actual soldiers joining you compared to the retainers, who feel like whatever whacky personality type that IS wrote and stuck them as a retainer. I also don't agree with putting soldiers as retainers. Even if it is technically correct, that's not how IS wrote retainers as being personally loyal to a lord above all else.
I mean, the soldiers from earlier games also had wacky personalities. Forde literally paints on the battlefield, Trek is constantly falling asleep, Kieran impales himself in the head with his axe, Makalov is a gambling addict, Sain can't keep it in his pants. Unless you mean like Cain/Abel who literally do not have personalities, I don't think the claim of soldiers seeming more normal than retainers holds up.
@ And my other point could be better explained as such: knights and soldiers in the older games feel representatives of the regular folk while the retainers (despite their backstories sometimes stating they’re poor folk) feel like members of their lord’s inner circle.
In order for a character to be better written, they need to actually be written. These characters do not have any lines of dialogue, led alone defining characteristics or personality traits.
@ I disagree. Cain and Abel do have personalities, based on their roles in FE11 prologue and FE12 respectively. They’re just not overstated but they’re there. I prefer that over characters that don’t even feel like real people. This is at its most extreme post-Awakening but prior games also fall foul of this, in my opinion.
I think Jeritza could have his own category. He might seem to be aligned with the Empire, but he's either just looking for opportunities to fight or goes with the flow of whatever's happening. It's why you can still use him in the Paralogue with the Immovable.
Only a fan translation for FE1? We had an official one, right Nintendo? Hey Nintendo where did you put it, I swear it was around here somewhere? Nintendo where is the official FE1 translation?
I’m fairly certain gunter,kaze and silas are implied to be corrin’s retainers and also reina and orochi were mikoto’s retainers so i’d argue for them to be moved as well.
Bring back recruitments like Xavier and Stefan but with better writing, I fully endorse absurd goofy secret/challenge-based recruitments but also wish they just had more spotlight Also, potty trained
The code word... really? Though, bringing that up at the end of a video surveying the casts like this, I wonder which cast has the largest percentage of people that gave their parents trouble with it.
I agree the main reasoning is from a lack of unique recruitment opportunities, revelations especially dropped the ball for me, it would have been way more interesting to get certain retainers before or later or just not at the same time. I think Saizo was done well, but there was so much potential especially on the nohr side who aren’t available across the board which aren’t available at all until halfway through the “before valla-arc”. But that might be more about Revs awful pacing that goes from a million miles a minute to a crawl story wise imo. Even non retainers tended to be grouped together, charlotte and benny are both soldiers but it easily could have been written to say they were stationed in different maps or not have both beast units join at the same exact time for the same reason, or have Odin and Laslow be optional defects available earlier. Great video!!
Tbh, it would have been really cool if the 3 awakening kids joined immediately or nearly immediately, because after all they are there to stop Anankos. They should be very quick to join corrin, since corrin is directly fightin Anankos. Would also lead to potentially interesting boss convos with Camilla and Xander confused "why is my retainer betraying me"
yeah, I get they didn’t want to make awakening required but it could be easily explained away. Like Odin could be sent by leo with Niles to spy on the group and have him witness the chapter 7 jumping off the bridge make up some crazy odin story and have him join at the end. With Niles either joining too or being a double agent then or by the end of the snow shoveling map because leo does appear and stage something given he’s a smart guy. I think just in general the pre-valla arc just needed to be rethought, it’s very short and forces the narrative to throw so many characters at you all at once and didn’t have enough depth to give anyone agency to make them unique. Hinata and Oboro looking for takumi and joining later / earlier, Elise getting sick near the Rainbow Sage area, more inter-nation conflicts like Hans/Iago in chapter 8 attacking an injured area with faceless in hoshido to pin it on corrin but corrin defends the area and recruits say azama, kaze and subaki because they were present while Hana and Sakura left because it wasn’t safe for them and join a little bit later. Like obviously all these ideas are just that but spending time on that rather then 10 chapters of beating up one of the characters dead mom or dad would of been nice
Another thing I wanna add is that even if you try to categorize and structure overall recruitable units like this may also just be *already loyal soldiers* but at least in the moment, they're usually treated as their own group. "These are the local mercenaries lagging behind on their way to the battle" "These are the knights watching the border castle", stuff like that, whereas the "lord + 2 retainers" makes every retainer group have very similar themeing, it's always "this guy the story actually cares about and their two cheerleaders" (at least at first impression, which even if in supports they can go beyond that, they make a rough first impression, at least for me.)
Potty trained. You make a good point that in most games most characters are a lord/retainers. I do think another part of the problem is cast size. Engage has a rather small cast. So I feel like it makes the problem look even bigger.
I think the big contributor to not having weird recruitment is the amount of effort that goes into characters now. In older games, a character could be a sprite and some key art, but now the standard is every character getting a unique 3D model and full voice acting. It’s harder to justify that much investment into a character that players may never see.
I agree so hard with the support system point- when I plotted my own fire emblem for fun, the roster was 50 characters, and I decided on each character five S-support partners of each sex and then a couple other supports with characters who would be interesting (fates/3H's A+ support was a great concept and I'd totally steal that), or a different selection for characters who were way too young for that/not interested. It gives an opportunity to do a little character building, too. Their preferences and hard limits on who they'd see as a potential romantic partner can be part of their character! Losing that loses something on the personality front and I don't think the gameplay flexibility is worth that tradeoff.
As far as Awakening, Morgan didn't come back in time the same way the other child units do, but ig that doesn't change the spot in the list Gaius was hired as a thief but got sketched out when he found out it was an assassination plot, so that's why Chrom has an easier time convincing him. I believe they talk about paying him money before he sees the candy Panne does refer to owing a debt to Ylisse somehow, but I'm not sure if she ever explains what that debt is? Henry... yeah, no clue, maybe he just thought he could kill more people on the winning side lol. Idc cuz I love him :)
Panne's debt was to emmeryen helping her after the rest of her people got killed, no more specifics other than that. She helped cause emmeryen was good to her pretty much
I have many thoughts on red unit recruitments, but tl;dr making red recruitments good is a balancing act that intsys often fumbles. also potty trained the longer version: having played sacred stones as my first fe, joshua as an introduction to red unit recruits (and to a lesser extent marisa later in eirika route as a worse joshua recruit) gave me high expectations for the concept, so with every new fe game that comes out, I get disappointed with their mediocre red recruits (if there's any at all). I think the key to a good red unit recruitment is a balance of unit desirability, ease of access, and unit fragility. joshua, for instance, has decently high unit desirability (for the killing edge if not him as a unit), but the player has to choose which unit of their army to use to ferry natasha, as she will likely be killed if she goes by herself. he's not so far as to be unaccessible by infantry in a few turns, but not close enough to reach without having to field some attacks, meaning there's some risk involved in getting him. additionally, as it's one of the first handful of chapters in the game and way before players have any option to grind in the tower of valni, most of your units are pretty weak and will have trouble taking hits, so the risk is more present than it would be in a red unit recruit for the late game. these factors combine to make joshua a memorable red unit recruitment that, while not hard, isn't so easy that it's entirely forgettable and can offer some opportunity for strategy. lindon's recruitment in engage lacks most if not all of those factors (note: I don't hate engage or lindon or anything, just think this is a good example of a bad recruitment). he's not an especially strong unit, doesn't provide any insanely good weapons/items, and you probably already have no room in your army after solm, so his desirability is low. somewhat connected to that, your army is decently strong by now, so there's not much risk with sending units over with the possibility of fielding hits, especially considering lucina being able to protect units altogether. he needs to be talked to by alear, ivy, or hortensia, two of which are fliers that can easily bridge the distance from the starting area to talk to him, so he's really easy to access. these all combine to make lindon a pretty mediocre and forgettable red unit recruitment. in summary, a good red unit recruitment often means that the unit is highly desirable as well as decently risky to get, but not so risky as to induce frustration
There are two types of people: relatable chads like Roger who join an army just for a girl they have no shot with, and all the other idiots who just like money, killing, freedom, justice, or whatever.
Jeorge would qualify as one of Nynas knights, he was an Archanean knight just like the others, he just has been hiding out and decides to join once he finds out about Nynas army. Also Perne is a weird case because the way everybody recruits him is with Lara so you get a free dancer, but he can also be recruited by Salem who convinces him on moral ground, or Lifis, in which case he literally joins to bully him. Nobody ever sees these reasons because you don't get a dancer if you do them, but there are technically a variety of reasons why he would join.
You got some stuff wrong with awakening ricken was actually the one saving maribelle you didn't save ricken (at least for what the story is concerned ) he joins you because he is a shepherd technically maribelle too but her being in rescues is fair. Panne joins you because of dept she owed the elysian royals i think and after that map emmeryn asks her to join your army and sye was intrigued by her so she joins. Henry joins you probably mostly because he was bored but i think in his frederick or ricken support he mentions how he didn't like whstthe plegia army had become and thought the shepherds where more fun so in other words he joins because of vibes. Tharja actually joins because she hates gangril. I also thinj libra is technically not a shepherd i think he was just indebted or loyal to emmeryn but i'm not confident on that and cordelia was part of a group pegasus knight under phila and not the shepherds she joins because phila ordered her too. There is aslo a argument that virion should be in alied forces he technically joined the shepherd but it was so he could eventually get chrome to help stop Reinhardt
I took it as Ricard saving mirabell and then the rest of the shepherd saving both of them (similar or Julian and Lena). After all, without Chrom and co, Richards rescue mission would have failed pretty quickly...
@DaniDoyle fair enough I personally always saw it as ricken saving maribelle and and meeting up with chrom like this isnpart of his plan especially because ricken is characterized as smart character so i feel like he would plan ahead but what you said also works especially because it was a last minute plan technically the story never really elaborates on this so you can see it either way
I agree with you on one thing. The main problem is that the royal and retainers show up simultanously. One thing that can alleviate that problem is letting one retainer show up one or two chapters later. Another thing as you said is that the recruitment scenarios are pretty similar, which makes them feel stale. To give you an example of what i mean, after being heavily disappointed in Engage, i thought about what Fire Emblem i would want to play. The result of this is a brainchild titled FE: Faithful Tides. The story starts similar to Sacred Stones, except for the lord being a princess with no weapon or protection whatsoever. The prologue would be her at first trying to run away (teaching about terrain in the process), before bumping into a sailor (pirate) who just happened to be there for chopping wood. Seeing her situation, he decides to help her out of a sense of fairness and the chance to "cave some imp skulls in". Gameplay wise it would then be a mix of Sacred Stones prologue and Lyn Modes Chapter 1. Then he takes her afterwards to an old acquaintance of him. Chapter 1 would reveal that said acquaintance is the retired royal admiral, who recognizes the princess, while the sailor is a retired pirate captain, who befriended the admiral when both were active. However the imperial army marches in and blocks the town, leading the admiral to employ the pirates help in bringing the princess to safety, while he stays back. Gameplay wise it would play similar to Radiant Dawns 1-1 chapter, except having two separate and sparcely connected roads, one for the pirate who is lvl 17 (being a pseudo-jagen) and one for the princess, who would be lvl 1 or 2. Then after they escaped the town, he would meet up with his old shipwright at his old hideout, so he can repair the ship, while the following chapters are about bringing the old crew together to safely bring the princess to another country. Chapter 2 is about recruiting the crews doctor (a priest) who works at an orphanage. After arriving they see the orphanage in ruins and find the doctor barely clinging on to life. He explains that a group of Imperials have took the children to the mines, while killing everyone else, triggering the captains berserk button and so starting a rescue mission. While the fight goes on, a child starts to use the commotion to fight her captors with dark magic. Turns out she knows the doctor from the orphanage, him being the only one back then who was not being creeped out by her. After bringing the rescued children to a nearby village for safety, they depart, with the dark magic child insisting on coming along, since she only trusts the doctor. Chapter 3 is about recruiting the lookout and first mate (an archer) who retired to a more isolated mountain village. Getting greeted by a barely missed arrow, they find out that said archer was busy day and night defending his village from bandits, him being on the brink of exhaustion and paranoia. The captain offers him to defend in his stead, so he can get some much needed rest, thus having a defense mission. During the fight both a villager steps up to help and also the princess personal maid (a pegasus knight) finds herself on the scene, helping the princess of course. The archer, being rested, then joins the party on the condition that they take care of the bandits first, leading to chapter 4. Chapter 4 is your usual "wipe the bandits hideout" mission with a recruitable bandit, who due to the invasion lost his job as a woodchuck and had to turn to banditry. Chapter 5 is about recruiting the canoneer (a spearman) who retired to a city and took a job training the city guard. Unfortunately the city is occupied by the Imperials and everyone in the city guard, including the canoneer, is thrown in jail. So the captain causes a ruckus to let himself get thrown in jail, while facilitating a means for the rest of the party to come in, leading to a jail break mission. Also this mission has a separate path for the captain to get him his last levels, since he auto-promotes at the end of teh chapter. After breaking out, they run into one of the Imperial generals, and a fight between her and the captain ensues (both missing their crits in a cutscene fight). The fight is cut short due to a problem in the Imperial camp, with the captain promising her a rematch, something the general is intrigued by (wink-wink^^). Deciding that time is of the essence, the party returns to the ship, where both the shipwright (a fighter with a hammer) joins the crew and the captain promotes by getting the old captains mantle on. Chapter 6 is about breaking through the naval blockade and a ship map. One ship is engaged by the captain alone (to show the promotion off), while the other is covered by the rest of the party. There you also recruit an enemy myrmidon who was conscripted into service against his will. You then arrive at the neighboring kingdom, only to find out that they struggle against the Empire as well and so cannot offer shelter. You decide to take the princess to a pirate town only known by merchants and scoundrels, where she can find refuge. Before boarding you get approached by a monk, who wishes to travel there as well to spread his faith and pays well. Chapter 7 is then your ghost ship mission and introduction to monsters. Afterwards you arrive at the pirate town and Act 2 of the game begins with having a FE9/10 like base/hub system and the recruits being various type of mercs you encounter in town. Just wanted to share the idea here.
I feel like Sacred Stones is fairly difficult to put into specific tiers (probably for every FE but this is where I've noticed it the most). Neimi isn't particularly saved, though she does ask for help and later joins the army because she has no home to return to. Colm fits the "Saved" category more, though you kinda help him before he'd ever need any saving and ends up joining for same reasons Neimi joins. Amelia also fits more the "Loses Faith in Grado" category, especially in Eirika's route. She kinda buys into Grado propaganda and is completely disillusioned when she notices that Eirika and Ephraim just don't fit the description she was told. She essentially turncoats because she works under a sucky boss. L'Arachel and Dozla would likely fit Allied Royal more. But then again, she's mainly trying to beat monsters senseless. Then again she kinda needs to be saved by Eirika in her route. She also kinda needs to be saved in Ephraim's route too, though she's actually there to save Ephraim instead. Tana is absolutely an Allied Royal, but she also needs to be Saved in Ephraim's route. Same deal for Innes kinda on Eirika's route. Honestly the whole thing is kinda messy, cuz FE liked to mix and match quite a few motivations and scenarios here and there.
I wanted to note that Jeritza is missing from the Three Houses list. He would constitute I guess Allied Forces or Knights I guess because spoiler reasons.
Maybe it's cause i played more burger king than 4, but Sharlow looked edited in the tier list, got me by surprised remembering that my scrimblo is from a official game
Orochi and Reina are also Mikoto's retainers. Even though Mikoto couldn't make it into the roster due to schedule, it's two more characters who join just for being retainers
Neimi being in "Saved" bothers me. She isn't saved by Eirika and the gang, she joins because she wants to make sure Colm doesn't get himself killed. She should go in "Knows someone" although her situation is a little weird compared to the rest of them.
11:20 You didn’t go over the tier, but Amalda does not join us because we saved someone? She gets convinced by Sleuf but her motivation for joining Leif’s army falls moreso under the "unique reason”.
One thing that I want to note is that one of the main criticisms of the Lord and Retainer dynamic is that retainers all are under the protection and therefore enjoying the BENEFITS of working under the crown. Alm and his friends by contrast do not fit that dynamic, acting as, well, actual friends that are protecting Alm because they're friends rather than duty-bound people that Just So Happen to be friends because everyone has to get along in modern FE. also potty trained lmao
What is a complex motivation? I don't see other reason for fighting besides being personally involved in the conflict (family/friends) and getting paid
Wait, why is Nyx in the Kids section?
finally someone noticed lol. I dont know how she ended up there, i saw it while editing at 2am but was too tired to re record, so i decided it would be a funny easter egg.
@@DaniDoyleI could swear you made it as a easter egg/joke on purpose just for "haha funny kid"
misread Sothe's FE9 category as "stupid brat" and laughed
lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
19:53 I once saw a tumblr post headcanoning that Henry initially joined the Shepherds as a spy for Validar but decided he liked them more than the Grimleal so every correspondence he ever sent was just a mess of puns with no relevant information, and I fully accept that as my own headcanon.
19:47 Funnily enough, Tharja doesn't join because of Robin. Chrom talks to her, and she basically joins because she doesn't want to fight for Gangrel. I can only guess how many people didn't use her, only for her Robin obsession to come up in the end credits and leave them confused since the two wouldn't have even had a conversation.
@@J.R.Unbound Robin being able to recruit Tharja (they can't) is such an insane Mandela effect, I had to search multiple times to convince myself it isn't a thing. And I even played awakening
"Yo, Marth! It's me, Dolph, from FE11! I'm your ally, I'm here now."
“Joshua who joins because of Natasia”
TMGC brainrot is real and amazing. I also sometimes mix up characters in my head due to loving my TMGC scrimblos.
that was actually on purpose, to find other milkers...
@@DaniDoyle Dani, you mean milkmen right? You mean milkmen right?!
Anyway, did you ever think of a TMGC unit tier list (if Leila isn't in A tier then I'll be angy, hur-dur)?
Technically Orochi and Reyna could join the retainer category by a technicality bcuz they were Queen Mikoto's retainers
RIP
yukimura too as mikotos “Personal Tactician” could be counted, add that onto the fact that Gunter, Silas and Kaze either become retainers or act as a retainer-lite and my god 😭 for some reason until it was laid out I thought fates didn’t have as much as it did
I think the reason people notice it more with Fates and Engage is due to the sheer amount of lords there making it stand out a lot. Like, in something like fe6 you dont really notice cause theres only 4 people max you could qualify as a lord and each has a different number of people they could classify as retainers/knights (bonus points for all their retainers being potty trained unlike engage's). Meanwhile in Fates and Engage you see this pattern play out 9 whole times so you notice it a lot more and it feels more agregious.
I think it's both how often it happens in Fates and Engage, and that the game's have them say out loud "These are my retainers." or "I'm person's retainer." almost every time just drawing attention to it.
so fun fact both mercenaries knights are considered retainers if they are in service to a noble so technically retainers are everywhere
"its all retainers?"
"Always has been"
I'm almost certain that dorcas is cannonicaly paid, wich is mentioned in his farina support and she's like " dude go ask for a raise "
ah, i hadn't read that support, thanks!
There's also Bartre's support with him where Bartre tries to get Eliwood to pay Dorcas more to help heal Natalie's (Dorcas' wife's) longstanding illness. What a bro.
Gilbert is an on map recuriment in 3H.
On Edelgard's route there's also Lysithea if you haven't recruited her yet.
Jokes on you I actually DO use Renault and DID read his kickass backstory hidden behind supports you have about 3 maps to unlock
I love how certain retainers break out of that role by having a distinct personality that doesn't revolve around their lord. Like how Citrinne is a retainer but she's also a rich landowner in her 30's who is definitely the type of excessive that imported potty trained birds even though she has maids to make sure that everything stays perfectly luxurious and clean. Basically engage solved the retainer problem by making the retainers funny caricatures of themselves.
Why did I write this
@@implying8903 Why wouldn't you?
I feel like the biggest issue is just that Engage nearly wholesale repeats the formula from fates (among many things it took from fates). Eight royals, two big brothers, two big sisters, two little sisters, two little brothers, each with two retainers with the only shake up being splitting them across four royal lines instead of just 2. Hell this also applies to Alear, the only thing they're missing is Veyle having two explicit retainers.
Velye should have zero retainera tbh, since shes an Azura paralell
Panne’s reason to join could be summarized as “I knew it’d be a good idea to get here, something felt off” and then that was it. One could say she was indebted to Emmeryn (or in lesbians with her) but her reason to join was just a hunch that something bad was gonna happen.
Yeah that reddit post sucked but at least a lot of the comments were calling out the OP for being just straight up wrong lol potty training
I really love Steamed Sam's video "Fire Emblem Recruitment". I see your point, that you could say it were mostly knights and mercenaries in older games, but the army still felt more like a potty trained drunken posse.
About the Fates retainer dynamic. I love how it shows the difference between Nohr and Hoshido. While lots of hoshidan retainers are from families who were in in the royal family's service for generations, the nohrian royals just picked theirs of the street.
Oh, i havent heard of them, i'll have to check it out...
3:12 LOL that dialogue tho 🤔
Reason to join in 3H “Real World Money” 😂
Same with Fates Anna
There’s a lot of this video that I agree with, like I definitely feel like placing the blame for this entirely on retainers isn’t fair, and only serves to further obscure the problem. The lack of interesting recruitment scenarios and generally poorer writing (such as leaning more into the quirkier side of tropes) hurts the characterisation of units as you’ve said.
A big problem isn’t necessarily the units themselves, but rather the fact that in fates and engage they continuously join in groups of 3 where the spotlight for characterisation is shone on one character while the retainers get shafted. The frequency with which this happens is also a problem as this lack of diversity of join conditions/scenarios further compounds the repetitiveness making the game overall feel much more formulaic. Even if the dynamic between lord and retainer is explored through supports, the initial establishing of these units as all having this particular dynamic means that they feel very samey.
The quirkiness of these characters is also a problem as it tends to make them feel less part of a greater whole and more like individual trios, reinforcing the lack of cohesion. I think the way you’ve laid the other games’ tiers out is interesting as it kinda highlights this. Units who join Marth/Chrom/Ike/Eirika etc feel more like they’re actually joining an army to me. Marth’s soldiers for instance contains the original members of his army, Hardin’s Wolfguard and Nyna’s knights. These plus Minerva and her Whitewings would feel more like retainers in later games.
The frequency is also a problem as mentioned. Having units join who are members of larger, story established groups like the Greil Mercs or Shepherds feels more natural compared to the constant 3-3-3-3… and it helps that these groups and members are generally established beforehand. All the shepherds besides Sully are present for cutscenes to show off their personalities before they join, and they all join staggered with a chance to make a mark for themselves instead of as groups (Virion, Cordelia and Libra are not shepherds btw, I feel like some anti-Awakening bias was showing in that section lol). Same with the Greil Mercs and a lot of the units in earlier games.
…The problem with retainers as they’ve been for Fates/Engage is that they basically just… exist. Hell, the first 6 royal retainers of engage basically exist for combat tutorials more than characterisation, and they don’t actually feel like they’re part of a larger kingdom. This is compared to recruiting standard foot soldiers, mercs, conscripted vs volunteer common folk etc with individual motivations whose existence at least makes you feel like this is part of a larger world.
Even in terms of unit recruitment, it’s not a necessity for them to be red units, but just joining solo as blue in turn 2+, or in a different part of the map behind enemy lines adds a lot compared to pre/post map with no fanfare.
Also, potty trained (I generally find comment codewords a bit cringe though).
The codewords are because there are people who are commenting essays without watching the video, since personally I don't think its worth my time to respond to someone who didn't watch (especially since before I started using the codewords, I frequently got comments of "you're wrong because [proceeds to say basically what I said in the video]"
You know, that’s fair enough actually. I guess I’m just jaded about it being associated with people trying to artificially inflate engagement/run giveaways etc.
Your reasoning actually makes a lot of sense.
@@declanm810 an understandable thing to be jaded about! I'd be lying if I said I don't think it boosts engagement, as there are people who just comment the codeword and nothing else, and that does (at least if the algorithm is to be believed) help me in sone way, but the main motivation is just so I can know who to ignore. Plus sometimes people find funny ways to work the codeword in, which makes me chuckle.
The new games are just missing the cool recruitment themes tbh. It made getting new units feel more impactful than it should.
I agree that Engage's free-form supports (due to a lack of obligatory marriage) made a lot of units feel less like retainers once you're past their intro chapter. Just to pick one off the top of my head, Citrinne:
- Gets into difficult political discussions with her cousin Diamant
- Reveals herself as the Brodian CIA with Yunaka
- Talks about nepotism with Chloe
- Talks about her worries for her country's future with Seadall
- Gets into a discussion about worship and bootlicking with Veyle
None of which have anything to do with Alcryst or Lapis
Dani: I'm not putting in the substitutes for fe4
Evil and intimidating Sharlow:
He has been known to drive people berserk...
When I realized what post you were talking about partway through the explanation I wish you could have heard the way I cackled in excitement, like "oh it's about THIS post".
Anyways, great coverage and analysis. It's always confused me when people complain about "one-note characters" as if it's exclusive to one or two games in the series. Like, we've always had one-note characters. You can either love my boy Boucheron as he is, or you can stay in your lane about it lol
The Bouch is Loose!
I think that Engage's retainers are more noticible because they follow the Fates structure, so they could be considered formulaic in a way, and that there is no route split to justify why half you would need that most units have a connection to each side (Exept for Nyx, she is conquest only and has no reason to not join you in birthright, meaning that you don't have her in birthright because you don't happen to cross paths with her)
Nyx should consider herself lucky she dodged being bad in yet another route
Because I now apparently relate all FE content I watch to my still-hypothetical-but-slightly-less-so hack, this got me thinking about why characters join your team in my hack.
I think my favorite reason why any character in my hack wants to team up with you is “supernatural entity who has been left to guard a relic for untold ages is very very very lonely and wants to have friends.” And don’t worry, this fella is potty trained.
Epic Fire Emblem Theory TM TM TM: Which wyverns are potty trained!?!?
Pan owed a debt to Emmeryn.
Gaius, aside from the promise of candy, wasn't willing to assassinate the Exalt.
Tharja couldn’t have cared less about Gangrel, the Shepherds pulling up had just peaked her interest.
Henry was under Mustafa's command, the general from the chapter after Emmeryn dies, and knew several of the early game commanders.
Stefan in FE9 is really bizarre. He says he wants to talk more with Lethe/Mordecai. They say they can't chat because there's a battle on. He says, fine, I'll help you win faster (not likely for a footlocked, mechanically beorc unit in the desert on the opposite side of the map from Muarim) and then... doesn't have any conversation with Lethe/Mordecai afterwards. He doesn't even have supports with Lethe, meaning they never speak another word to each other on-screen. And then Stefan has an OPTIONAL conversation with Ike where he MIGHT train him a bit, nothing to do with joining the Greil Mercs or anything. But that's secret units for you I guess.
Even weirder in fe10, TBH. Such a strange fellow.
@@DaniDoyle Stefan is my favourite FE10 Laguz Royal
3:26 "some of the writing is cleaned up since we only have a fan translation of FE1 and FE3..." there actually *is* an official localization of FE1! it was released on the switch online store, for some truly incomprehensible reason it was a limited release back in 2021 despite being a digital release and so was taken off the store
I still have my copy on my switch and play it sometimes, but to my knowledge it hasn't been released again and is still unavailable. I truly have no idea why
I forgot about that. I also own a copy, but i just forgot lol
The person who made the Reddit post you saw made a follow up post, fixing their obvious bias.
zamn, i didnt see that because i have thankfully avoided reddit since then...
Can you link the post? Or if links don't work then which subreddit it's on under what title?
did they? I checked their account, couldn't find it. maybe it was someone else's follow up?
Potty trained, that is all
A few* thoughts about FE7 (because nerd brain go zoom at 5am):
- Literally changes nothing, but Dorcas and Bartre are being paid as mercenaries, as per their support conversation. Bartre thinks Dorcas is being underpaid.
- Wallace is fun because he's an Ex-Retainer (Former Knight-Commander of Caelin; position taken by Eagler and then Kent following the Rebellion.) turned actual retainer (Upon swearing himself to Lyn) turned Ex-Retainer (Says he got bored and left, but Lyn Support reveals elsewise). I would say he's technically part of an Allied Army (Caelin), but since he serves Lyn's House (The Marquess of Caelin)...could really go either way.
- Wil and Florina both fall into that same nebulous category: Wil just decides to jimp in and help during Lyn Mode, but becomes a sworn man to House Caelin by the end of Lyn Mode. Florina is a mercnary, but she's also Lyn's BFF and/or lesbian lover depending on your current mood. Also she ends up training to be a Knight of Caelin.
- Technically both Harken and Isadora are retainers of Eliwood when you consider him the successor to the Soon-to-be/Now-dead Elbert. Even if not, they are knights of his realm, and directly charged as knights to his noble house. Isadora is a little flexible as she is the retainer of his mother, Isadora, to whom she then bestows upon Eliwood as a guardian (thus now making her Eliwood's retainer). Harken, meanwhile, just sorta--went crazy, but is still a Knight of Pherae.
- Hawkeye as a retainer is--wrong? He's the Guardian of the Desert, unless you are counting him as a retainer to...the Desert, or to either Athos or to Pent at the most extreme? He'd probably be best in the 'Hates the BF' category...but really he's there because Athos told him so...I guess that makes him Athos' Retainer...? 🤔
- Raven is a mercenary, but doesn't join because he is on...not sure how that'd really fall in. Guy and Erk are even more nebulous as Guy is just a hungry boi who needs food badly, and Erk is more of a magical student being made to take on odd jobs because his mentor (Pent) is a weird dude.
- Priscilla is...not a mercenary at all, and is actually the adopted daughter of an Etrurian nobleman who was being escorted by Erk when they were stopped in Laus. She was looking for her brother, as she heard of someone in the area who matched his appearance. She'd fit in the "Knows Someone in your Army" Category better.
- Lucius is just a wandering dude who wants to help people. He has no allegiance to any army or faction. He follows his friend and/or Gay lover Raven (depending on your current mood) around and tries to keep him from being a Murder Hobo...but that's really it. In Lyn Mode, he joins because he sees a Child (Nils) being bullied and decides to politely give the BF The Hands (So I guess he'd fit in that category?), but then in Eliwood/Hector Mode he joins because he knows Raven (he cannot be recruited with Lyn or her retainers; only with Raven).
- Heath surrenders to you when spoken to, then deserts from a band of mercenaries and joins you for free. This makes him a mercenary, he's also kind of an odd thing as he's actually a deserter from Bern. Doesn't fit in any other category you made though, unless you turned the Canas category into a 'Joins for some other reason' category...which isn't as fun because Canas just being a dude who wants to jump onto your boat to check out the SPOOKY ISLE is funny.
================================
In short, I think the FE7 cast is still pretty balanced. Even if you were to expand the retainer list with those people listed, I love that a fair bit of these added people either don't start out as retainers, or they are Retainers but go off on some sort of Murderhobo Quest:
Wallace: "MURDER EVERY BANDIT THAT MADE LYNDIS SAD"
or Harken: "MY LORD DIED SO I AM GOING TO MURDER EVERYONE WHO- oh, it's my Lord's son...I AM GOING TO MURDER EVERYONE IN HIS WAY.".
Me: I personally don’t care either way.
I think obviously the issue isn’t inherent to the idea of retainers. Like any of these characters could be interesting if they were incorporated better, the problem is that the game treats them like they’re insignificant, like they don’t have a reason to be where they are except general allegiances, tons of them are motivated to fight by duty instead of personal motives. And pretty much none of them have something going on at the side.
Like the Awakening units in Fates, they’re there to help Corrin but in Birthright they can be killed by the Hoshidan army without a hint of their motivation to combat Ananokos.
If Chloé was somehow related to a villain, or if we ever went to Kagetsu’s nation and he saw his family, etc, they wouldn’t feel as motivationless or uninvolved.
It’s really more of a general writing issue than specifically “retainer bad.”
Although I do definitely wish there were more interesting recruit methods.
Unfortunately this is gonna kinda always be a problem to some extent I feel because of the basic reality of permadeath. Put bluntly, Chloe can't be allowed to have plot relevance after chapter 4 because she should have very well gotten herself killed during that chapter. I'm not saying "remove permadeath" of course, it's important to the series overall. Of course, character-specific paralogues like we saw in 3 Houses are the perfect opportunity for this kind of thing, but sadly Engage had to have all those nostalgiabait paralogues.
I mean, engage has a solution to this problem baked in, with the secondary nobles. Is Celine "dies" before the end of ch6, in the story she retreats so she can still appear in cutscenes. But after her final piece of plot relevance, she will actually Die if she is killed. Even if you don't like this solution, there are others in older games. Joshua and Cormag both have ties to major villians in sacred stones, but if they die before you reach those villians, you just don't get that portion of the story. Missing the backstory for Caelech doesn't meaningfully change the overall Sacred Stones plot, but Joshua being tied to him (and Ismarre) is still relevant to the story.
@@MinoriGaming I mean I personally think that’s not really an issue.
Engage doesn’t even really have that excuse due to the royal heirs having plot armor, but also I’d add that an appeal to permadeath is if it could actually change the story, maybe not so much the ending is different but it’d be really neat if playing through deaths got you into different scenarios, but in Engage permadeath has the narrative weight of a Pokémon nuzlocke, your favorite character might die, and that sucks, but it doesn’t really change the story in game.
I kinda think though that permadeath isn’t an important aspect of FE and if it is the reasons the stories aren’t good (which I don’t think it is) then they should just take it out.
@@MinoriGaming Variable scenes depending on who's alive aren't a groundbreaking concept, you can look to something like Joshua's character in Sacred Stones for an example, where he has a couple of unique scenes on Eirika's route if he's alive
Not everyone can get that, but still
There is one thing everyone CAN get though, and that's boss conversations
(also 3H gave every character new lines in the monastery each chapter which doesn't solve the issue, but helps them feel at least a bit more involved to an extent)
Sure, Harken joins you because Elliwood. Sure, Kellam joins because Shepherds, but regardless of how memorable their recruitment is or isn't, it doesn't feel like a repeated formula. Meanwhile getting Sakura or Timerra means getting their posse as a package. It is fine if it happens once, like Forde/Kyle, but as often as Fates and Engage do it? That starts grating on first impressions.
I chose to believe that the "peg convinces" catagory is people convinced to join the army by being pegged
I feel there's a distinction between how older games would give you soldiers that are a part of the realm's army and the retainer structure Fates and Engage use. The former feel like actual soldiers joining you compared to the retainers, who feel like whatever whacky personality type that IS wrote and stuck them as a retainer. I also don't agree with putting soldiers as retainers. Even if it is technically correct, that's not how IS wrote retainers as being personally loyal to a lord above all else.
I mean, the soldiers from earlier games also had wacky personalities. Forde literally paints on the battlefield, Trek is constantly falling asleep, Kieran impales himself in the head with his axe, Makalov is a gambling addict, Sain can't keep it in his pants. Unless you mean like Cain/Abel who literally do not have personalities, I don't think the claim of soldiers seeming more normal than retainers holds up.
@ Well, I vastly prefer characters like Cain and Abel and consider them better written than characters like Treck or Forde so…
@ And my other point could be better explained as such: knights and soldiers in the older games feel representatives of the regular folk while the retainers (despite their backstories sometimes stating they’re poor folk) feel like members of their lord’s inner circle.
In order for a character to be better written, they need to actually be written. These characters do not have any lines of dialogue, led alone defining characteristics or personality traits.
@ I disagree. Cain and Abel do have personalities, based on their roles in FE11 prologue and FE12 respectively. They’re just not overstated but they’re there. I prefer that over characters that don’t even feel like real people. This is at its most extreme post-Awakening but prior games also fall foul of this, in my opinion.
In 3 houses you forgot jeritza
Whoops! Oh well, i guess he could be either teacher or knight, since hes a knight disguised as a teacher
I think Jeritza could have his own category. He might seem to be aligned with the Empire, but he's either just looking for opportunities to fight or goes with the flow of whatever's happening.
It's why you can still use him in the Paralogue with the Immovable.
Only a fan translation for FE1? We had an official one, right Nintendo? Hey Nintendo where did you put it, I swear it was around here somewhere? Nintendo where is the official FE1 translation?
I’m fairly certain gunter,kaze and silas are implied to be corrin’s retainers and also reina and orochi were mikoto’s retainers so i’d argue for them to be moved as well.
They should make all recruitments like sylvain joining cause the teach's hot
Bring back recruitments like Xavier and Stefan but with better writing, I fully endorse absurd goofy secret/challenge-based recruitments but also wish they just had more spotlight
Also, potty trained
The code word... really? Though, bringing that up at the end of a video surveying the casts like this, I wonder which cast has the largest percentage of people that gave their parents trouble with it.
In conquest recruiting the boots locks you out of getting sura. That’s kinda like a recruitment decision?
Holy shit Belf playable in fe11!?
belfheads, we are winning with this one...
I agree the main reasoning is from a lack of unique recruitment opportunities, revelations especially dropped the ball for me, it would have been way more interesting to get certain retainers before or later or just not at the same time. I think Saizo was done well, but there was so much potential especially on the nohr side who aren’t available across the board which aren’t available at all until halfway through the “before valla-arc”. But that might be more about Revs awful pacing that goes from a million miles a minute to a crawl story wise imo.
Even non retainers tended to be grouped together, charlotte and benny are both soldiers but it easily could have been written to say they were stationed in different maps or not have both beast units join at the same exact time for the same reason, or have Odin and Laslow be optional defects available earlier.
Great video!!
Tbh, it would have been really cool if the 3 awakening kids joined immediately or nearly immediately, because after all they are there to stop Anankos. They should be very quick to join corrin, since corrin is directly fightin Anankos. Would also lead to potentially interesting boss convos with Camilla and Xander confused "why is my retainer betraying me"
yeah, I get they didn’t want to make awakening required but it could be easily explained away. Like Odin could be sent by leo with Niles to spy on the group and have him witness the chapter 7 jumping off the bridge make up some crazy odin story and have him join at the end. With Niles either joining too or being a double agent then or by the end of the snow shoveling map because leo does appear and stage something given he’s a smart guy.
I think just in general the pre-valla arc just needed to be rethought, it’s very short and forces the narrative to throw so many characters at you all at once and didn’t have enough depth to give anyone agency to make them unique. Hinata and Oboro looking for takumi and joining later / earlier, Elise getting sick near the Rainbow Sage area, more inter-nation conflicts like Hans/Iago in chapter 8 attacking an injured area with faceless in hoshido to pin it on corrin but corrin defends the area and recruits say azama, kaze and subaki because they were present while Hana and Sakura left because it wasn’t safe for them and join a little bit later. Like obviously all these ideas are just that but spending time on that rather then 10 chapters of beating up one of the characters dead mom or dad would of been nice
Another thing I wanna add is that even if you try to categorize and structure overall recruitable units like this may also just be *already loyal soldiers* but at least in the moment, they're usually treated as their own group. "These are the local mercenaries lagging behind on their way to the battle" "These are the knights watching the border castle", stuff like that, whereas the "lord + 2 retainers" makes every retainer group have very similar themeing, it's always "this guy the story actually cares about and their two cheerleaders" (at least at first impression, which even if in supports they can go beyond that, they make a rough first impression, at least for me.)
Potty trained. You make a good point that in most games most characters are a lord/retainers. I do think another part of the problem is cast size. Engage has a rather small cast. So I feel like it makes the problem look even bigger.
I think the big contributor to not having weird recruitment is the amount of effort that goes into characters now. In older games, a character could be a sprite and some key art, but now the standard is every character getting a unique 3D model and full voice acting. It’s harder to justify that much investment into a character that players may never see.
Honestly, I think that's pretty dismissive of the effort put into sprite art.
I agree so hard with the support system point- when I plotted my own fire emblem for fun, the roster was 50 characters, and I decided on each character five S-support partners of each sex and then a couple other supports with characters who would be interesting (fates/3H's A+ support was a great concept and I'd totally steal that), or a different selection for characters who were way too young for that/not interested. It gives an opportunity to do a little character building, too. Their preferences and hard limits on who they'd see as a potential romantic partner can be part of their character! Losing that loses something on the personality front and I don't think the gameplay flexibility is worth that tradeoff.
As far as Awakening,
Morgan didn't come back in time the same way the other child units do, but ig that doesn't change the spot in the list
Gaius was hired as a thief but got sketched out when he found out it was an assassination plot, so that's why Chrom has an easier time convincing him. I believe they talk about paying him money before he sees the candy
Panne does refer to owing a debt to Ylisse somehow, but I'm not sure if she ever explains what that debt is?
Henry... yeah, no clue, maybe he just thought he could kill more people on the winning side lol. Idc cuz I love him :)
Panne's debt was to emmeryen helping her after the rest of her people got killed, no more specifics other than that. She helped cause emmeryen was good to her pretty much
I have many thoughts on red unit recruitments, but tl;dr making red recruitments good is a balancing act that intsys often fumbles. also potty trained
the longer version: having played sacred stones as my first fe, joshua as an introduction to red unit recruits (and to a lesser extent marisa later in eirika route as a worse joshua recruit) gave me high expectations for the concept, so with every new fe game that comes out, I get disappointed with their mediocre red recruits (if there's any at all).
I think the key to a good red unit recruitment is a balance of unit desirability, ease of access, and unit fragility. joshua, for instance, has decently high unit desirability (for the killing edge if not him as a unit), but the player has to choose which unit of their army to use to ferry natasha, as she will likely be killed if she goes by herself. he's not so far as to be unaccessible by infantry in a few turns, but not close enough to reach without having to field some attacks, meaning there's some risk involved in getting him. additionally, as it's one of the first handful of chapters in the game and way before players have any option to grind in the tower of valni, most of your units are pretty weak and will have trouble taking hits, so the risk is more present than it would be in a red unit recruit for the late game. these factors combine to make joshua a memorable red unit recruitment that, while not hard, isn't so easy that it's entirely forgettable and can offer some opportunity for strategy.
lindon's recruitment in engage lacks most if not all of those factors (note: I don't hate engage or lindon or anything, just think this is a good example of a bad recruitment). he's not an especially strong unit, doesn't provide any insanely good weapons/items, and you probably already have no room in your army after solm, so his desirability is low. somewhat connected to that, your army is decently strong by now, so there's not much risk with sending units over with the possibility of fielding hits, especially considering lucina being able to protect units altogether. he needs to be talked to by alear, ivy, or hortensia, two of which are fliers that can easily bridge the distance from the starting area to talk to him, so he's really easy to access. these all combine to make lindon a pretty mediocre and forgettable red unit recruitment. in summary, a good red unit recruitment often means that the unit is highly desirable as well as decently risky to get, but not so risky as to induce frustration
There are two types of people: relatable chads like Roger who join an army just for a girl they have no shot with, and all the other idiots who just like money, killing, freedom, justice, or whatever.
Jeorge would qualify as one of Nynas knights, he was an Archanean knight just like the others, he just has been hiding out and decides to join once he finds out about Nynas army.
Also Perne is a weird case because the way everybody recruits him is with Lara so you get a free dancer, but he can also be recruited by Salem who convinces him on moral ground, or Lifis, in which case he literally joins to bully him. Nobody ever sees these reasons because you don't get a dancer if you do them, but there are technically a variety of reasons why he would join.
You got some stuff wrong with awakening ricken was actually the one saving maribelle you didn't save ricken (at least for what the story is concerned ) he joins you because he is a shepherd technically maribelle too but her being in rescues is fair. Panne joins you because of dept she owed the elysian royals i think and after that map emmeryn asks her to join your army and sye was intrigued by her so she joins. Henry joins you probably mostly because he was bored but i think in his frederick or ricken support he mentions how he didn't like whstthe plegia army had become and thought the shepherds where more fun so in other words he joins because of vibes. Tharja actually joins because she hates gangril. I also thinj libra is technically not a shepherd i think he was just indebted or loyal to emmeryn but i'm not confident on that and cordelia was part of a group pegasus knight under phila and not the shepherds she joins because phila ordered her too. There is aslo a argument that virion should be in alied forces he technically joined the shepherd but it was so he could eventually get chrome to help stop Reinhardt
I took it as Ricard saving mirabell and then the rest of the shepherd saving both of them (similar or Julian and Lena). After all, without Chrom and co, Richards rescue mission would have failed pretty quickly...
@DaniDoyle fair enough I personally always saw it as ricken saving maribelle and and meeting up with chrom like this isnpart of his plan especially because ricken is characterized as smart character so i feel like he would plan ahead but what you said also works especially because it was a last minute plan technically the story never really elaborates on this so you can see it either way
I agree with you on one thing. The main problem is that the royal and retainers show up simultanously. One thing that can alleviate that problem is letting one retainer show up one or two chapters later. Another thing as you said is that the recruitment scenarios are pretty similar, which makes them feel stale.
To give you an example of what i mean, after being heavily disappointed in Engage, i thought about what Fire Emblem i would want to play. The result of this is a brainchild titled FE: Faithful Tides.
The story starts similar to Sacred Stones, except for the lord being a princess with no weapon or protection whatsoever. The prologue would be her at first trying to run away (teaching about terrain in the process), before bumping into a sailor (pirate) who just happened to be there for chopping wood. Seeing her situation, he decides to help her out of a sense of fairness and the chance to "cave some imp skulls in". Gameplay wise it would then be a mix of Sacred Stones prologue and Lyn Modes Chapter 1. Then he takes her afterwards to an old acquaintance of him.
Chapter 1 would reveal that said acquaintance is the retired royal admiral, who recognizes the princess, while the sailor is a retired pirate captain, who befriended the admiral when both were active. However the imperial army marches in and blocks the town, leading the admiral to employ the pirates help in bringing the princess to safety, while he stays back. Gameplay wise it would play similar to Radiant Dawns 1-1 chapter, except having two separate and sparcely connected roads, one for the pirate who is lvl 17 (being a pseudo-jagen) and one for the princess, who would be lvl 1 or 2. Then after they escaped the town, he would meet up with his old shipwright at his old hideout, so he can repair the ship, while the following chapters are about bringing the old crew together to safely bring the princess to another country.
Chapter 2 is about recruiting the crews doctor (a priest) who works at an orphanage. After arriving they see the orphanage in ruins and find the doctor barely clinging on to life. He explains that a group of Imperials have took the children to the mines, while killing everyone else, triggering the captains berserk button and so starting a rescue mission. While the fight goes on, a child starts to use the commotion to fight her captors with dark magic. Turns out she knows the doctor from the orphanage, him being the only one back then who was not being creeped out by her. After bringing the rescued children to a nearby village for safety, they depart, with the dark magic child insisting on coming along, since she only trusts the doctor.
Chapter 3 is about recruiting the lookout and first mate (an archer) who retired to a more isolated mountain village. Getting greeted by a barely missed arrow, they find out that said archer was busy day and night defending his village from bandits, him being on the brink of exhaustion and paranoia. The captain offers him to defend in his stead, so he can get some much needed rest, thus having a defense mission. During the fight both a villager steps up to help and also the princess personal maid (a pegasus knight) finds herself on the scene, helping the princess of course. The archer, being rested, then joins the party on the condition that they take care of the bandits first, leading to chapter 4.
Chapter 4 is your usual "wipe the bandits hideout" mission with a recruitable bandit, who due to the invasion lost his job as a woodchuck and had to turn to banditry.
Chapter 5 is about recruiting the canoneer (a spearman) who retired to a city and took a job training the city guard. Unfortunately the city is occupied by the Imperials and everyone in the city guard, including the canoneer, is thrown in jail. So the captain causes a ruckus to let himself get thrown in jail, while facilitating a means for the rest of the party to come in, leading to a jail break mission. Also this mission has a separate path for the captain to get him his last levels, since he auto-promotes at the end of teh chapter. After breaking out, they run into one of the Imperial generals, and a fight between her and the captain ensues (both missing their crits in a cutscene fight). The fight is cut short due to a problem in the Imperial camp, with the captain promising her a rematch, something the general is intrigued by (wink-wink^^). Deciding that time is of the essence, the party returns to the ship, where both the shipwright (a fighter with a hammer) joins the crew and the captain promotes by getting the old captains mantle on.
Chapter 6 is about breaking through the naval blockade and a ship map. One ship is engaged by the captain alone (to show the promotion off), while the other is covered by the rest of the party. There you also recruit an enemy myrmidon who was conscripted into service against his will. You then arrive at the neighboring kingdom, only to find out that they struggle against the Empire as well and so cannot offer shelter. You decide to take the princess to a pirate town only known by merchants and scoundrels, where she can find refuge. Before boarding you get approached by a monk, who wishes to travel there as well to spread his faith and pays well.
Chapter 7 is then your ghost ship mission and introduction to monsters. Afterwards you arrive at the pirate town and Act 2 of the game begins with having a FE9/10 like base/hub system and the recruits being various type of mercs you encounter in town.
Just wanted to share the idea here.
I feel like Sacred Stones is fairly difficult to put into specific tiers (probably for every FE but this is where I've noticed it the most). Neimi isn't particularly saved, though she does ask for help and later joins the army because she has no home to return to. Colm fits the "Saved" category more, though you kinda help him before he'd ever need any saving and ends up joining for same reasons Neimi joins. Amelia also fits more the "Loses Faith in Grado" category, especially in Eirika's route. She kinda buys into Grado propaganda and is completely disillusioned when she notices that Eirika and Ephraim just don't fit the description she was told. She essentially turncoats because she works under a sucky boss. L'Arachel and Dozla would likely fit Allied Royal more. But then again, she's mainly trying to beat monsters senseless. Then again she kinda needs to be saved by Eirika in her route. She also kinda needs to be saved in Ephraim's route too, though she's actually there to save Ephraim instead. Tana is absolutely an Allied Royal, but she also needs to be Saved in Ephraim's route. Same deal for Innes kinda on Eirika's route.
Honestly the whole thing is kinda messy, cuz FE liked to mix and match quite a few motivations and scenarios here and there.
L'arachel is one of the 2 "this unit could fit in another category but its a spoiler" units i mentioned.
im fine with an excess of retainers, as long as theyre potty-trained.
On the subject of Kaze, he does become a retainer to Corrin on their A support.
Potty Trained
he needs it for birthright...
I wanted to note that Jeritza is missing from the Three Houses list. He would constitute I guess Allied Forces or Knights I guess because spoiler reasons.
For some reason he wasn't included on the tier list maker i used and I guess I just didn't notice?
@ Totally fair. Tier makers can be unreliable at times.
Maybe it's cause i played more burger king than 4, but Sharlow looked edited in the tier list, got me by surprised remembering that my scrimblo is from a official game
Orochi and Reina are also Mikoto's retainers. Even though Mikoto couldn't make it into the roster due to schedule, it's two more characters who join just for being retainers
Holy shit Void bizarre adventure footage.
Neimi being in "Saved" bothers me. She isn't saved by Eirika and the gang, she joins because she wants to make sure Colm doesn't get himself killed. She should go in "Knows someone" although her situation is a little weird compared to the rest of them.
I lumped her in because your group helps her get back the stolen stuff, though I can see the logic for "knows someone" too tbh
11:20 You didn’t go over the tier, but Amalda does not join us because we saved someone? She gets convinced by Sleuf but her motivation for joining Leif’s army falls moreso under the "unique reason”.
One thing that I want to note is that one of the main criticisms of the Lord and Retainer dynamic is that retainers all are under the protection and therefore enjoying the BENEFITS of working under the crown. Alm and his friends by contrast do not fit that dynamic, acting as, well, actual friends that are protecting Alm because they're friends rather than duty-bound people that Just So Happen to be friends because everyone has to get along in modern FE.
also potty trained lmao
What is a complex motivation? I don't see other reason for fighting besides being personally involved in the conflict (family/friends) and getting paid
Potty trained, also kinda wish games had more supports and stuff and some strictly paternal ones or somethings like that.
Wait a minute, should Heathers tier not be called "Lesbian" instead?^^
Fates more like uhhhh
Greats ale on characters 3/1