Perhaps it wasn't to convince Delenn and Sheridan, but to convince the other Vorlons. Kosh never seemed to have a problem with them until this episode. And he said "WE have sent for an inquisitor," not "I."
Fun fact, Stephen furst properly cried and it lasted minutes after the scene, he apparently ran after Andreas shouting "I'm sorry Andreas, I'm so sorry!" Vir is such a fascinating study of someone who is so insecure and feels so powerless but has a strong moral compass, watching him navigating everything that's happening.
@@Asehpe It may have been. JMS had such visions for his characters. He may have seen Stephen and thought "That's Vir!" I don't know, because I don't have an inside line with JMS, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case.
As a B5 fan since the beginning, this has always been one of the best episodes,not just because the excellent Inquisitor character but also because of the lift scene.
This is one of those episodes I didn't appreciate when I first saw it when I was 10-12, but appreciate much more now that I am 35. (God, I feel so old when I say that.) The show may be rated for 10+, but I think it requires a much more mature audience to really appreciate episodes like these. It wasn't until I was in my late teens that I really understood what episodes like this one really meant in the overall story.
This is the line I love from this episode: "No greater love hath a man, than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame, but for one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see." I think it sums up what was going on. You can't be the one leading this fight if you are doing it for fame and glory. You can only win this fight if you are willing to sacrifice yourself for the cause of life.
The scene in the elevator between Vir and G'Kar is pretty much the tipping point for Vir. He thinks of himself as a good person but he just can't do anything to change. For the first time he is given a reality check that that won't make him a good guy in the eyes of a victim such as G'Kar. Probably one of the more important lessons of the show. Remaining neutral or not doing enough to change makes you support the aggressors.
A favourite episode, especially in season 2. Yep! Shadows: "What do you want? The Vorlons: "Who are you" Two interesting questions we should know the answers to. The elevator scene with Vir and G'kar is just so good, and it hurts. Both of them are heart breaking. Vir feels the pain of not being able to do enough, and the pain in GøKar's voice calls for tears to me. Delenn and the Inquisitor: A brilliant piece of theatre. "one life or a billion - it's all the same!" That is excellent stuff. "There is something I'm not understanding" You are right, and if I tell you, there be spoilers... Be seeing you!
@@Asehpe Conventional wisdom. Being willing to die from just one other person even with a great cause, because you consider all life sacred, because people matter to you... The conventional wisdom would suggest that isn't the rigth reason to die.
Yes this is one of those episodes that requires a rewatch. It’s alot of seeds that are planted in this episode and you couldn’t really understand what is being planted until later episodes. So your analysis of “it’s one of those gotta watch again after you complete the series” is exactly correct in my opinion 😉👍
This is a great insight into the mindset of the Vorlons (in spite of going through an intermediary, rather than have Kosh run the inquisition himself). I'm really glad that you were able to refer back and contrast Morden's question of "What Do You Want?" with Sebastion's "Who Are You?" Both questions are very important, not just for the series, but are excellent philosophical questions for personal introspection. This is definitely one of the more powerful and substantive episodes of Babylon 5... even if it's placement seems a little awkward between The Long Twilight Struggle and the Season 2 finale (though I think you'll appreciate this a little more by the time you advance further).
When I saw this episode the first time, I didn't realize that "Who are you" was going to be a Vorlon theme juxtaposed with the Shadows' "What do you want". Only after it appeared again later did I remember that it had been used in this one. What I really got from this episode, about the Vorlons, was just how weird their thought process must be. For them to have come up with this idea makes about as much human sense as their technology does. The way "Who are you" is used in this one, though, I can't go along with. OF COURSE she answered in terms of how other people related to her, because that's how life works; you ARE your relationships. There IS NO other way to define you.
Episodes like this provide the moments and character depth that make the big episodes like the long twilight struggle impactful. The scene with G’Kar and Vir is like scene when Kosh sent Sheridan in to hear the monks sing. Does it push the story forward - no, but the show wouldn’t be special without those moments.
The episode also features Kim Strauss who is a regular in make up. In this season he has been a Markab (possibly a few times), a Drazi and a Narn here. I wish his voice (and particularly his cadences) weren't so distinct
@@neilbiggs1353 Part of that was also due to the extensive nature of the make up. People had a really hard time with the Drazi and Narn make ups. Hence why Na'toth was recast and replaced. You'll notice we don't see a lot of Narn or Drazi women. It just was really hard on the actresses.
Yes. The whole interrogation of the inquisitor was for the Vorlons to assure whether Delenn and Sheridan are ready for the things to come. One can easily say that he is ready for the upcoming tasks, but is he really. At the end, Sebastian knows that both of them are. And they know that they have to go through hell to be victorious. That's what the episode is about.
Vir is more complicit than the average Centauri. He sent for Morden in "Coming of Shadows" and helped set in motion what happened between their worlds...
While all the time telling Londo that this wasn't right and he shouldn't be doing this -- something the average Centauri also didn't get to do (because of course the average Centauri didn't know what was happening and how it related to Londo). So Vir has both more, and less, responsibility.
I loved this episode because of its introspection. It really emphasizes the theme of "questions are more important than answers" and I love that Brett noted just how different "who are you?" is from "what do you want?" Even as 16 year old I latched onto how Sebastian's questions were NOT about the answer, but how the answer was constructed: the journey not the destination. I felt the one misstep was in suggesting that Delen and Sheridan passed the test; just like defining identity, walking the line between purpose and self-righteousness is an ongoing battle. There's also a very interesting conversation about how the Delen/Sebastian debate folds into JMS struggle to reconcile his reservations about the 'great man of history' philosophy with writing exceptional protagonists in an epic story, but alas, that's an ongoing theme and this is a spoiler-free zone.
I have rewatched Babylon 5 many times and this episode stands as one of my favourites. It is also the episode I reference most in discussions with other fans. The willingness to sacrifice yourself for others... The willingness to die in the dark when no one else will ever know... This is a line in the sand, they have learned the burden of responsibility and what may be and will be asked of them and know, they can carry the fight to the bitter end
It's always difficult to commit entirely to a task -- even with said task is admittedly the most important possible, the most important we will ever face. There's always the desire to relativize, to escape it a little, to fall prey to fear...
"What does Kosh need to be sure about, concerning Delenn?" "Why doesn't he trust her anymore?" "Who are you?..." You see the insistence on identity here. Are you the right person? Are you who you should be? Who are you? Now contrast this with the Shadow's basic question -- What do you want? To the Shadows, it doesn't matter who you are, but what you want; to the Vorlons, who you are, but not what you want. Let's keep this for later...
So, that trope about elevator rides always lasting the perfect amount of time for a conversation... they kinda forgot that trope this time, that elevator ride went on for an uncomfortably amount of too long.
They made up for it by sticking to the trope that whenever blood is needed outside of a medical setting (symbolism, ritual, ST:DS9 shape-shifter test), it is taken with an absurdly forceful & thus deep mutilation of a palm.
To paraphrase a jms quote from the 90s when Season 2 was airing. The Shadows have done nothing but help Londo and the Centauri. They somehow saved Morden’s life. They picked a side against the Narn for sure, but they stuck to it. They’ve kept their word. The Vorlons have recruited Jack the Ripper, tortured people they’re meant to be helping, killed Deathwalker, manipulated Talia. Yet we’re all so certain the Shadows are bad and the Vorlons are good…
This is a brilliant episode. So many fantastic lines. Of course the elevator scene with Vir and G'Kar, but also Sebastians closing line: "Good luck to you in your holy cause, Captain Sheridan. May your choices have better results than mine. In your face Sheridan :)
You can't help but feel for Vir because we know he is a good person but to G'Kar he is a part of the problem and Londo's right hand man who now is burdening him with the task of forgiveness which G'Kar clearly doesn't have.
Vir has got to feel a lot of guilt for all those times he witnessed Londo's dealings with Morden and didn't do anything about it, regardless of how little he could actually have done or forseen.
This episode first aired on 10/25/95, as a Halloween episode. Anna was Sheridan's wife, and if you will recall the recording of her that his sister gave him, I guarantee that actress will not be back on the show. In an odd way, this episode ties back to the one with the Markab pandemic/plague. The emotional stress of that event was excellent preparation for the test in this episode; "Faith, manages."
A good exercise for "finding out who you are" is ... HONESTLY completing the following sentence: *_"I am an asshole, BECAUSE ..."_* We all are ... but only after admitting it to ourselves can we acknowledge and change / improve. You dont even need to tell anyone.
BTS trivia: When they filmed that elevator scene, Stephen Furst recounts being moved to tears by Andreas Katulas and not being okay after they were done. Whereas Andreas started smiling, and went off to have a cigarette. JMS has said it was a frequent sight to "see a Narn smoking a ciggy."
Advice from Javik in Mass Effect for Vir… “Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer.”
"Was it about teaching Delenn and Sheridan that they were the right people in the right place at the right time?" -Honestly, on this rewatch I've wondered if that was a part of the idea here. During this season, Delenn has been shaken by her loss of status politically, and also seemingly in the eyes of her people, so did that trigger the Vorlons to ask if she was really the one for the position? Or did they choose to put her through an ordeal to force her to see it for herself? I don't have an answer. What I do know is that it's deeply messed up to use a psychopath for a job interview!
I don't think you can capture the impact of this episode. I watched this show from beginning to end, one episode per week. It was something you looked forward to. This show had drama and intensity like no other. This was by far the best show set on a space station.
One of my favorites. I understood the significance of this when I watched it the first time. Because I didn't like Delenn very much at that time. At the beginning of the show she is entitled, she's elitist she keeps secrets and we kind of gloss over this when she changes to half human. At this point I just assumed we are supposed to love her but I didn't. I needed her to address that in some kind of way. When Kosh said "...about you" I immediately got excited cause I knew exactly where this is going. Also for another reason which is kind of the opposite of the first: She was quite insecure during that ISN interview when she started to cry as soon as that reporter reminded her of the human victims of the Earth-Minbari war. I remember at that point thinking: "Well that is not good either. Isn't there a great war coming? She needs to be at the top of her game not second guessing herself riddled with guilt. That's another thing they need to address" So you can understand how much joy this episode gave me, for I didn't think that the writers were aware of that. This episode was Christmas and birthday in one for me. One of my all time favorites.
I mean, even Jeff and Brett were talking about how she seemed earlier this season, how self-assured she was. It was important to note that there might be some need for it, but also need for introspection and to realize the limit of one's place, and a willingness to let others come forward. Now, if some of the Grey Council could hear about this...
Going to keep it simple. G'kar, Delenn and Sheridan are leaders, but are they worthy leaders? What will they give up for a chance to protect the future of their people. Delenn and Sheridan were both willing to give up their lives, which is really all they have. G'kar had to give his pride and beg for help. Even Vir had to give up his fear and attempt an apology to G'kar. G'kar pride and Vir's fear have to some extent defined them till now.
It's really the first time you see that the Vorlons don't just magically know everything and that their tactics may be a little questionable. Plus confirmation that they've most likely been everywhere. It's definitely one of the better episodes of B5.
Oh, the Vorlons' questionable tactics go back at least to Season 1's "Deathwalker." when they summarily executed the last Dilgar, and Kosh declared to all of the younger races "You are not ready for immortality."
@@kant12 The Vorlons acted summarily as judge, jury, and executioner. That kind of unilateral behavior is always questionable, even for the Vorlons. Sinclair certainly questioned it.
@@KevynJacobs That's not how it was portrayed in the episode. None of the other groups were willing to do the right thing so the Vorlons had to step in. They literally saved the day.
Yeah. I am glad you have an open mind on this episode, and i'm looking forward to hear your thoughs on monday and if you do a "Babylon5 for the second time" 😉
I don't know if it's in this episode or another but either Delenn or Lineer mentions that if the work's goal is pure but its methods are corrupt to reach that goal, it makes the goal corrupt as well. More or less, it's the reference to the "Road to Hell is paved with good intentions". Delenn has been studying humans, learning about the prophesy, and then transforms herself to become more human as it was told so it sets her up in the history as to become The One to fight the coming Darkness. From the Vorlons' advantage, knowingly taking on this role has she bought into this Messiah complex and secondly, once she has been given power, will it corrupt her or not? A good contrast to this is the story of Paul Atreides who learned of the prophesy and the Fremen suspect he is their Saviour and then in order to get support, he plays into it but in the end in the following book, he realises that people are still killing in his name and sadly, due to his hubris, the cause he represents has become corrupt. He had hoped that by dying, the killing would stop but his sister has continued and escalated to rule in his name. His Leto, years later, in the 2000 Syfy series, Children of Dune, put it eloquently as he gives Gurney his father's ring, "to remind you of Muad'Dib. To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human."
The vorlons know something is coming (aka The Coming of Shadows), and they think that Delen and Sheridan are the right people (leaders) to be in place for what's coming down, but they needed to know for sure.. as Lenir said, confirmation. Enter the Inquisitor.. Brilliantly played by Wayne Alexander. It is a great episode, and even better like you said on a re-watch. Probably my 40th time watching it, and I continue to enjoy it more and more each time. I will look forward to your re-watch, and your discussion with Jeff. Till then, Cheers 65 toasts!
We need to remember, Delenn is being questioned, even by her people, with many thinking she is prideful, and she is doing perhaps the right things for the wrong reasons. Here, the Vorlons wanted to know who she really is, what her reasons are, if they can trust her to do what they think is necessary. But I do think after this one, and how they use Jack, people need to ask a question or two about the Vorlons themselves.
"One life or a million, it's all the same!" -- Delenn "He who saves one life, save the world entire" -- Torah (from Schindler's List) What s the cause -- to win the Shadows war? To save "life"? To save a life, one life?...
Humans response to G'kar makes sense in another level than just not wanting to get into a fight. Narn were the ones who started attacking first. No other species is attacking Centauri outposts so as far as they know, they have no cause to be alarmed. As to the question of who are you, if you can boil it down to a simple answer of few words, you have not really grasped anything. Every person is a collection of many thoughts, feelings, desires, habits, memories and much more. To properly answer I think would require at least an essay length, if not more, depending on the person. There is no one word or combination of few words, to precisely describe who anyone is. Especially since people are different depending on the situation/environment they are in.
No greater love have a man, that he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, n the dark, where no one will ever know or see...
I don't think G'Kar does hold Vir personally responsible. He never actually blames Vir in this scene, he just can't accept the apology. I think the fact that G'Kar just says he can't forgive Vir is a sign of how far he's come as a character. Season 1 G'Kar would have done a lot worse - the terms of surrender mean that he can't kill Vir, but you can beat someone bloody without killing them - but season 2 G'Kar chooses not to lash out at the one Centauri who's actually shown him any remorse over the war.
I've been waiting for you to get to this episode since the Beginning; everything I want to say has already been said. You did quite well comparing Morden's question to the Vorlon's. Vir and G'Kar (not Kosh) in the elevator is some of the best tv EVER.
I liked Londo and G'Kar at the elevator. Starting very harmless, they talk each other into rage with the poor guy standing between them, and at the end, the elevator is gone with the guy, but without them. “Look, what you have done!”
@@Nikioko Actually, it's even better than that. The line was "Now look what you made me do" which is a direct quote from that other marvelous double act, Laurel and Hardy. 😄
My second favorite episode of this fantastic series. A Victorian gentleman WOULD use biblical references in discussing huge events. I was surprised to see that they kept the reference to the East End of London but the captioning correctly read West End.
I'll also say in asking how Vir can apologize to the dead G'Kar is asking him what he's materially doing about what's going on, which isn't anything right now.
This episode was a great one-on-one character piece and also saved a bunch on the special effects budget since they spent so much last on the episode (and the season finale was still coming! LOL)
Without revealing any of the coming storyline, I will point out that there is a B5 feature length episode/TV movie called "Legend of the Rangers". I can't give you more of an answer than that, at this stage. As for whether they are revealed more in the main story, you'll have to wait and see.
@@nagillim7915 The part based on religion probably would. The underlying philosophy is pretty understandable. Delenn is smart and religious and can relate to statements about morality and the soul, so I think she would be fine. She might miss some of the allusions to scripture, or as a member of the religious caste, she might have studied some of the more basic religious literature of humans. If Picard could figure out Darmok, Delenn could figure out the meaning of stories that she didn't necessarily know.
What is this episode about? ... I'd only just started recording B5 on VHS back in the day, maybe two or three eps before this. Fortuitous, because this one took several viewings before I understood: It's not about Delenn. It's not about Sheridan. It's not about G'kar. It's not even about Sebastian. With all those characters eliminated, who's left? It's about them.
This has never been one of my favorite episodes, I really don't like the scenes with Sebastian... I can't say how I've changed my mind, on this, slightly, because of spoilers so I will save it for the rewatch. But there is so much really good stuff in this episode the I had just forgotten were in THIS episode (I assumed they were in season 3). As with many things B5 memory has a way of playing tricks on you. Still, not one of my favorites, but that scene with GKar and Vir,... the first time I saw this episode I don't think it clicked for me, I just felt bad for Vir, after the rewatch it is one of those scenes that stick with you...
This does not even look like a TV show. It's a theater play. Whenever I watch this episode I'm expecting lines of chairs being hidden in the dark area of the set. Given that Mira Furlan was an established classically trained theater actress back in Zagreb before Balkan wars went loose, you can definitely see her act as a pro.
I think one of the really interesting things about this episode is, how through their choice of Sebastian and the methods he employees in their service, it makes you question the Vorlon's "good guy" status a lot.
Think part of this one is knowing that the Vorlons have visited Earth alot in the past, at least 400+ years ago.. perhaps even longer as they are 10,000's of years old as a race.
@@TheDanEdwards and remember, if the Vorlons are millions of years old as a species, what does that say about the Shadows, "who were old when even the Vorlons were young"... one of the likely first sentient species in this galaxy. Something we often fail to register: this entire Operatic setting is limited to ONLY the Milky Way... no specific mention about other galaxies. Let your minds run rampant! :D
@@ZakhadWOW - given the few distances mentioned in the show, it would all seem to taķe place within a tiny part of the galaxy. If you were to take those distances seriously then the Rim they talk about isn't the rim of the galaxy but probably just the rim of the local Orion Spur. And while the Orion Spur is about 10,000 light years long, 3500 across and 1000 thick, the whole galaxy is about 170,000 light years across (making Earth over 50,000 light years from the edge and over 30,000 light years from the core). If the reboot comes then i hope we either get no references to distances in dialogue or JMS gets a science advisor who knows their astrography. Back in the 90s we really had hardly any idea of our place in the galaxy and how far away things were (we thought the galaxy was only 100,000 light gears across and only discovered the rest of it in the last 20 years) whereas now we have half decent 3D maps of the space within 20,000 light years of Earth thanks to the gaea telescope data...
Interesting fact: the Babylon 5 Comic Book, which was cancelled right before they could do it, would have shown the ranger who was sent on the mission for G'Kar. I am not sure how official the comics are, but I think they tend to be semi-official, that is, sort of like rumors which tell a bit of truth mixed with confusion (when they contradict something shown on screen)
The sense of asking forgiveness to people, is not pointless per se. A person admit his/her wrong doing, in some culture this is also an humiliation, a sacrifice of your own honor we could say. But because apologizing is still in fact nothing but words, we can say that logicaly speaking, the basic condition for such act of humility to have value, is the one apologizing, speaking to someone who has been wronged AND! Can listen to his/her words. G'kar is a Narn rappresentative, even a member of their governament if I remember correctly: in normal circumstances, he could has been more than entitled enough to listen and accept Vir's apologizes. But in this case, probably because the Centauri not only subjugated the Narn homeworld, but they also obliterated it, he's telling him that for his words to have any meaning, any "weight", he should apologe to the direct victims of the Centauri's attacks. But they both knows that this is impossible. In a way or a other, the dead cannot listen to him so yeah! A little unfair, but G'kar decision not to accept Vir's apologizes, makes sense. Words doesn't have value in this particular situation.
Bret, dude, you're making me scratch my head about you. I didn't know Star Trek DS9 Duet episode by its name, but I decades later still vividly remember the story. You weren't captivated by that story on the 1st watching? Well I probably have a few of those too.
I also followed it up with saying I’m not sure what my first reaction to Duet was. But one thing I know, it’s an episode that just gets better everytime I watch it. I suspect this episode is like that.
I really like this one. Not everyone does. One reviewer gave it 0/10! It goes against expectations, to be sure, after the last episode, but it is needed. Not only do we get to see the Rangers put to work, we also see we can and should question the Vorlons, if this is what they think is acceptable. But beyond that, the intensity of the episode really works -- and that comes from one of its inspirations, the Prisoner. The other inspiration I suspect is from Ellison who had an interest in Jack the Ripper, and even wrote a follow-up to a Bloch story about the ripper taken to the future...
The performance of "Sebastian" was great ... his manner of speaking might not be period perfect, but the different timing/rythm and general slow speaking gives it a lot of weight (when he does so).
Yup, gotta leave something for the Patreon folks. Also, I’m trying to bring the time for these reactions to under 15 minutes, which just means some things have to hit the cutting room floor.
Ramifications of the B plot Vir looking on during G'kar's demonstration, and the lift scene do eventuate in the future. You will know it, when you get to it. No when, where or how spoilers.
A great bit of theater. This episode implies everything is about to go down, and the Vorlons need assurances, thus building the drama. It serves as a pallet cleanser between the big effects-driven action of The Long Twilight Struggle and Fall of Night. By their titles, you can tell that they were written as a set but Inqisitor was inserted to give the effects people time to complete the job. There are cases when Babylon 5 literally got episodes assembled just prior to airing them due to the high effects loads.
You compare Delenn and Sebastian in this episode to Moritza and Major Kyra in DS9's "Duet". I can see why -- dialogue pieces where what is said is much more important than any actions scenes (though here we do have a B plot with G'Kar, unlike The Duet which was entirely dedicated to Moritza -- and rightfully so, in my opinion). But I see them as fundamentally different. Moritza was trying to attone for what he perceived as his cowardice, his inability to do anything while the 'Butcher of Gallitep' did his dirty deeds. It's about what a 'good' Cardassian can do when confronted with what their government did -- a pretty darn interesting question. But in this episode, that's more Vir vs. G'Kar -- it's their question. Sebastian and Delenn are dancing around the question of identity -- who are you? Why should we think that you are the person we need for this war? Why should We The Vorlons side with you? How do you know you have what it takes? And you observed correctly that as soon as Sheridan showed up, he started also being a part of it: Sebastian seemed as interested in testing him as he was in testing her. That's again not Duet, which was entirely a two-person thing (with significant roles played by outside observers like Odo). You also mention how your first reaction to Duet was kind of meh-ish. Yes, the show grows on you with time. I suppose everybody has their own action-to-character enjoyment ratio -- some like more action pieces, others more those that delve into the depths of a character. Duet, however, was special because of its double trick -- Moritza pretending to be Gul Darhe'el pretending to be Moritza --and the lengths to which Moritza went to make the whole thing believable. This is, well, genius. Even after my first viewing I couldn't help going 'wow! who came up with THIS idea?' at the screen. It was beautiful. SImilarly, with Sebastian and Delenn. Because, as you point out, we have to figure out who we are at some point... don't we?...
All of this is fair. To be clear, my comparison to Duet was based mostly in the idea of how “two-people in a room talking” can often be some of the most compelling television out there, even if the first time viewing makes you go “meh.” I truly suspect this is one of those episodes that only gets better every time you watch it. -Brent
I like this episode but the final reveal is a bit of a shark jump but on the other hand I don't know how they can more conveniently establish the Vorlons involvement in Earth history.
Every show at the time seemed to have a Jack the Ripper story, not sure why America is obsessed with a foreign serial killer when they seem to own the brand, regardless this is one of the better interpretations.
Yeah, they wanted someone who we view as a monster, who we don't know a lot about so we can't judge if their actions are in line with what we know, and who disappeared without a trace after doing monstrous things. Jack the Ripper meets all the qualifications.
"It's OK to not forgive the entire group -- I get G'Kar... but it's not right." This sounds so modern now, with the Russian-Ukrainian war, doesn't it?... Let's say that the basic idea here is that of collective guilt. Is there some way in which all Centauri are responsible for the massacre of the Narn homeworld? Is there some way in which all Germans are responsible for the Holocaust? Or all Russians for the atrocities in Ukraine? Or all Americans for Vietnam, or for any wrong thing the American government may have done? We should think about this question -- whether there is at least responsibility (if guilt is too much) to be shared by all members of a group whose leaders are committing atrocities.
I agree but, as Londo's attache, Vir is a prt of the Centauri government. A bottom tier official, no doubt, but a member nevertheless. As a low-level government worker myself (lower even than he is) i do feel for Vir. He has no control or say in what's going on but by remaining in his post he can be deemed complicit in it. I know i spend a large amount of my time at 2am when i can't sleep doing moral calculus: does the work i do directly for the benefit of members of the public balance out the decisions those in power take that bring harm? I know there may come a point where i have to resign because i can't agree with government policy, but does that actually help anyone who it's within my power to help or would i simply be abandoning what good i could do because of harm i wouldn't be directly responsible for and had no power to prevent? Would my resignation in such circumstances be a selfish act abandoning the people i help on a daily basis, or a morally justified one in not condoning policies i can't agree with? I don't know that i know the correct answers to those questions...
Perhaps it wasn't to convince Delenn and Sheridan, but to convince the other Vorlons. Kosh never seemed to have a problem with them until this episode. And he said "WE have sent for an inquisitor," not "I."
This is a fantastic point
“Remembered only as… Jack” = fabulous acting!
It was so good
Fun fact, Stephen furst properly cried and it lasted minutes after the scene, he apparently ran after Andreas shouting "I'm sorry Andreas, I'm so sorry!" Vir is such a fascinating study of someone who is so insecure and feels so powerless but has a strong moral compass, watching him navigating everything that's happening.
I really like Stephen Furst. I think he himself is the prototypical Vir, it's almost as if the character was made for him.
@@Asehpe It may have been. JMS had such visions for his characters. He may have seen Stephen and thought "That's Vir!" I don't know, because I don't have an inside line with JMS, but it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case.
As a B5 fan since the beginning, this has always been one of the best episodes,not just because the excellent Inquisitor character but also because of the lift scene.
That scene with G'Kar and Vir is so impactful!
This is one of those episodes I didn't appreciate when I first saw it when I was 10-12, but appreciate much more now that I am 35. (God, I feel so old when I say that.) The show may be rated for 10+, but I think it requires a much more mature audience to really appreciate episodes like these. It wasn't until I was in my late teens that I really understood what episodes like this one really meant in the overall story.
This is the line I love from this episode:
"No greater love hath a man, than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame, but for one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see."
I think it sums up what was going on. You can't be the one leading this fight if you are doing it for fame and glory. You can only win this fight if you are willing to sacrifice yourself for the cause of life.
That is one of my three favorite speeches from the whole show.
The scene in the elevator between Vir and G'Kar is pretty much the tipping point for Vir. He thinks of himself as a good person but he just can't do anything to change. For the first time he is given a reality check that that won't make him a good guy in the eyes of a victim such as G'Kar. Probably one of the more important lessons of the show. Remaining neutral or not doing enough to change makes you support the aggressors.
A favourite episode, especially in season 2.
Yep! Shadows: "What do you want? The Vorlons: "Who are you" Two interesting questions we should know the answers to.
The elevator scene with Vir and G'kar is just so good, and it hurts.
Both of them are heart breaking. Vir feels the pain of not being able to do enough, and the pain in GøKar's voice calls for tears to me.
Delenn and the Inquisitor: A brilliant piece of theatre.
"one life or a billion - it's all the same!" That is excellent stuff.
"There is something I'm not understanding" You are right, and if I tell you, there be spoilers...
Be seeing you!
And don't forget: elevator scenes are always exactly as long as the dialogue requires them. 😆
Always.
"looking for an honest man willing to die for all the wrong reasons".... Is one of my favorite lines in the whole show.
It's an interesting line too in light of what's to come.
What do you think he meant? Why should anyone look for honest men who die for the wrong reasons?...
@@Asehpe Conventional wisdom. Being willing to die from just one other person even with a great cause, because you consider all life sacred, because people matter to you... The conventional wisdom would suggest that isn't the rigth reason to die.
Yes this is one of those episodes that requires a rewatch. It’s alot of seeds that are planted in this episode and you couldn’t really understand what is being planted until later episodes. So your analysis of “it’s one of those gotta watch again after you complete the series” is exactly correct in my opinion 😉👍
I think it's a lot worse on rewatch
Ahhh Wayne Alexander… The Jeffrey Combs of Babylon 5! He’s fantastic!
I love his performance in this episode.
@@BabylonLurker I was so hoping he would show up in Crusade.
This is a great insight into the mindset of the Vorlons (in spite of going through an intermediary, rather than have Kosh run the inquisition himself).
I'm really glad that you were able to refer back and contrast Morden's question of "What Do You Want?" with Sebastion's "Who Are You?" Both questions are very important, not just for the series, but are excellent philosophical questions for personal introspection. This is definitely one of the more powerful and substantive episodes of Babylon 5... even if it's placement seems a little awkward between The Long Twilight Struggle and the Season 2 finale (though I think you'll appreciate this a little more by the time you advance further).
“Who are you?” is the Vorlon equivalent to “What do you want?”. Correct.
Also, both questions come from..... the Prisoner.
@@hornorsilk2901 I'm not a number!!
When I saw this episode the first time, I didn't realize that "Who are you" was going to be a Vorlon theme juxtaposed with the Shadows' "What do you want". Only after it appeared again later did I remember that it had been used in this one. What I really got from this episode, about the Vorlons, was just how weird their thought process must be. For them to have come up with this idea makes about as much human sense as their technology does. The way "Who are you" is used in this one, though, I can't go along with. OF COURSE she answered in terms of how other people related to her, because that's how life works; you ARE your relationships. There IS NO other way to define you.
@@bidders71 I am a *free* man!
Production glitch: when you hear Sheridan saying "on the East End", you can see his mouth saying "on the West End".
Yup, they fixed the sound, but not the subtitles....
Oh my God, you're right! I had never noticed that. The things you learn...
Episodes like this provide the moments and character depth that make the big episodes like the long twilight struggle impactful. The scene with G’Kar and Vir is like scene when Kosh sent Sheridan in to hear the monks sing. Does it push the story forward - no, but the show wouldn’t be special without those moments.
Wayne Alexander's portrayal of Sebastian wound up causing the casting people to bring him back in other roles in the future (no spoilers here)
The episode also features Kim Strauss who is a regular in make up. In this season he has been a Markab (possibly a few times), a Drazi and a Narn here. I wish his voice (and particularly his cadences) weren't so distinct
@@neilbiggs1353 Part of that was also due to the extensive nature of the make up. People had a really hard time with the Drazi and Narn make ups. Hence why Na'toth was recast and replaced. You'll notice we don't see a lot of Narn or Drazi women. It just was really hard on the actresses.
Yes. The whole interrogation of the inquisitor was for the Vorlons to assure whether Delenn and Sheridan are ready for the things to come. One can easily say that he is ready for the upcoming tasks, but is he really. At the end, Sebastian knows that both of them are. And they know that they have to go through hell to be victorious. That's what the episode is about.
Vir is more complicit than the average Centauri. He sent for Morden in "Coming of Shadows" and helped set in motion what happened between their worlds...
While all the time telling Londo that this wasn't right and he shouldn't be doing this -- something the average Centauri also didn't get to do (because of course the average Centauri didn't know what was happening and how it related to Londo). So Vir has both more, and less, responsibility.
I loved this episode because of its introspection. It really emphasizes the theme of "questions are more important than answers" and I love that Brett noted just how different "who are you?" is from "what do you want?" Even as 16 year old I latched onto how Sebastian's questions were NOT about the answer, but how the answer was constructed: the journey not the destination. I felt the one misstep was in suggesting that Delen and Sheridan passed the test; just like defining identity, walking the line between purpose and self-righteousness is an ongoing battle.
There's also a very interesting conversation about how the Delen/Sebastian debate folds into JMS struggle to reconcile his reservations about the 'great man of history' philosophy with writing exceptional protagonists in an epic story, but alas, that's an ongoing theme and this is a spoiler-free zone.
There is also the question of if this whole thing was about testing…or teaching.
I have rewatched Babylon 5 many times and this episode stands as one of my favourites. It is also the episode I reference most in discussions with other fans.
The willingness to sacrifice yourself for others...
The willingness to die in the dark when no one else will ever know...
This is a line in the sand, they have learned the burden of responsibility and what may be and will be asked of them and know, they can carry the fight to the bitter end
It's always difficult to commit entirely to a task -- even with said task is admittedly the most important possible, the most important we will ever face. There's always the desire to relativize, to escape it a little, to fall prey to fear...
it is even more importer question :"It's easy to find something worth dying for. Do you have anything worth living for"
Hey, it's Wayne! Nice to see him out of makeup.
"What does Kosh need to be sure about, concerning Delenn?"
"Why doesn't he trust her anymore?"
"Who are you?..."
You see the insistence on identity here. Are you the right person? Are you who you should be? Who are you? Now contrast this with the Shadow's basic question -- What do you want? To the Shadows, it doesn't matter who you are, but what you want; to the Vorlons, who you are, but not what you want. Let's keep this for later...
The elevator scene is one of the best in the seires.
There is... another elevator scene to come in a future episode that kind of rivals this one. Heh heh heh.
JMS does elevators like nobody else. Maybe he was trapped in one and traumatized as a child ;-)
@@idea2go Maybe some rabbits got in and nibbled on his cape...
This episode always stands out to me, it's a masterpiece.
I wasn't a fan of this episode first time. Now I know what it's really about. Still not a fave, but it has it's purpose.
So, that trope about elevator rides always lasting the perfect amount of time for a conversation... they kinda forgot that trope this time, that elevator ride went on for an uncomfortably amount of too long.
They made up for it by sticking to the trope that whenever blood is needed outside of a medical setting (symbolism, ritual, ST:DS9 shape-shifter test), it is taken with an absurdly forceful & thus deep mutilation of a palm.
To paraphrase a jms quote from the 90s when Season 2 was airing.
The Shadows have done nothing but help Londo and the Centauri. They somehow saved Morden’s life. They picked a side against the Narn for sure, but they stuck to it. They’ve kept their word.
The Vorlons have recruited Jack the Ripper, tortured people they’re meant to be helping, killed Deathwalker, manipulated Talia.
Yet we’re all so certain the Shadows are bad and the Vorlons are good…
This is a brilliant episode. So many fantastic lines. Of course the elevator scene with Vir and G'Kar, but also Sebastians closing line:
"Good luck to you in your holy cause, Captain Sheridan. May your choices have better results than mine.
In your face Sheridan :)
You can't help but feel for Vir because we know he is a good person but to G'Kar he is a part of the problem and Londo's right hand man who now is burdening him with the task of forgiveness which G'Kar clearly doesn't have.
Vir has got to feel a lot of guilt for all those times he witnessed Londo's dealings with Morden and didn't do anything about it, regardless of how little he could actually have done or forseen.
The reason John wasn’t interrogated is because John would simply answer Soldier.
Some people are giving really great insights but please remember Brent doesn't want any explanations as they might spoil the second watch through.
Brent has caught Jeff's fixation on when/whether there will be a kiss. :D
This episode first aired on 10/25/95, as a Halloween episode.
Anna was Sheridan's wife, and if you will recall the recording of her that his sister gave him, I guarantee that actress will not be back on the show.
In an odd way, this episode ties back to the one with the Markab pandemic/plague. The emotional stress of that event was excellent preparation for the test in this episode; "Faith, manages."
A good exercise for "finding out who you are" is ... HONESTLY completing the following sentence:
*_"I am an asshole, BECAUSE ..."_*
We all are ... but only after admitting it to ourselves can we acknowledge and change / improve. You dont even need to tell anyone.
Brent: "Who is this guy?" Me: *spit take*
Ah is there a series with so many great scenes in and around elevators? Plus a chilling performance with Jack
Great episode.
"Who Are You ?" .."What Do You Want ?" ...those two questions will continue to resonate throughout the series...
Having now watched B5 for about 2 seasons, Brent knows to question his understanding of this episode. So, Brent ask the / your question.
I really like this actor. He's one of those where you may not recognise the face but you'll probably recognise the voice.
Wayne Alexander
Part of the import of this episode I think is that it gives a little bit of insight into the Vorlons. Who they are if you will.
BTS trivia: When they filmed that elevator scene, Stephen Furst recounts being moved to tears by Andreas Katulas and not being okay after they were done. Whereas Andreas started smiling, and went off to have a cigarette. JMS has said it was a frequent sight to "see a Narn smoking a ciggy."
Advice from Javik in Mass Effect for Vir…
“Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer.”
"Was it about teaching Delenn and Sheridan that they were the right people in the right place at the right time?"
-Honestly, on this rewatch I've wondered if that was a part of the idea here. During this season, Delenn has been shaken by her loss of status politically, and also seemingly in the eyes of her people, so did that trigger the Vorlons to ask if she was really the one for the position? Or did they choose to put her through an ordeal to force her to see it for herself? I don't have an answer. What I do know is that it's deeply messed up to use a psychopath for a job interview!
Possibly not that unusual though considering how uncomfortable job interviews make me 😁
That's definitely my take on it. And also, of course, punishment for Sebastian.
I don't think you can capture the impact of this episode. I watched this show from beginning to end, one episode per week. It was something you looked forward to. This show had drama and intensity like no other. This was by far the best show set on a space station.
I think Vir was apologizing for both; he felt he failed to stop Londo, and so he felt sorry for that, but also just what was happening as a whole.
One of my favorites.
I understood the significance of this when I watched it the first time. Because I didn't like Delenn very much at that time. At the beginning of the show she is entitled, she's elitist she keeps secrets and we kind of gloss over this when she changes to half human. At this point I just assumed we are supposed to love her but I didn't. I needed her to address that in some kind of way. When Kosh said "...about you" I immediately got excited cause I knew exactly where this is going. Also for another reason which is kind of the opposite of the first: She was quite insecure during that ISN interview when she started to cry as soon as that reporter reminded her of the human victims of the Earth-Minbari war. I remember at that point thinking: "Well that is not good either. Isn't there a great war coming? She needs to be at the top of her game not second guessing herself riddled with guilt. That's another thing they need to address"
So you can understand how much joy this episode gave me, for I didn't think that the writers were aware of that.
This episode was Christmas and birthday in one for me. One of my all time favorites.
I mean, even Jeff and Brett were talking about how she seemed earlier this season, how self-assured she was. It was important to note that there might be some need for it, but also need for introspection and to realize the limit of one's place, and a willingness to let others come forward. Now, if some of the Grey Council could hear about this...
Going to keep it simple.
G'kar, Delenn and Sheridan are leaders, but are they worthy leaders?
What will they give up for a chance to protect the future of their people.
Delenn and Sheridan were both willing to give up their lives, which is really all they have.
G'kar had to give his pride and beg for help.
Even Vir had to give up his fear and attempt an apology to G'kar.
G'kar pride and Vir's fear have to some extent defined them till now.
And now Brent knows both the B5 questions…
So now we know a lot more about the Vorlons...
Things that make you go Hmmmmm.....
It's really the first time you see that the Vorlons don't just magically know everything and that their tactics may be a little questionable. Plus confirmation that they've most likely been everywhere. It's definitely one of the better episodes of B5.
Oh, the Vorlons' questionable tactics go back at least to Season 1's "Deathwalker." when they summarily executed the last Dilgar, and Kosh declared to all of the younger races "You are not ready for immortality."
@@KevynJacobs What? How was that questionable?
@@kant12 The Vorlons acted summarily as judge, jury, and executioner. That kind of unilateral behavior is always questionable, even for the Vorlons. Sinclair certainly questioned it.
@@KevynJacobs That's not how it was portrayed in the episode. None of the other groups were willing to do the right thing so the Vorlons had to step in. They literally saved the day.
Yeah. I am glad you have an open mind on this episode, and i'm looking forward to hear your thoughs on monday and if you do a "Babylon5 for the second time" 😉
I don't know if it's in this episode or another but either Delenn or Lineer mentions that if the work's goal is pure but its methods are corrupt to reach that goal, it makes the goal corrupt as well. More or less, it's the reference to the "Road to Hell is paved with good intentions". Delenn has been studying humans, learning about the prophesy, and then transforms herself to become more human as it was told so it sets her up in the history as to become The One to fight the coming Darkness. From the Vorlons' advantage, knowingly taking on this role has she bought into this Messiah complex and secondly, once she has been given power, will it corrupt her or not?
A good contrast to this is the story of Paul Atreides who learned of the prophesy and the Fremen suspect he is their Saviour and then in order to get support, he plays into it but in the end in the following book, he realises that people are still killing in his name and sadly, due to his hubris, the cause he represents has become corrupt. He had hoped that by dying, the killing would stop but his sister has continued and escalated to rule in his name. His Leto, years later, in the 2000 Syfy series, Children of Dune, put it eloquently as he gives Gurney his father's ring, "to remind you of Muad'Dib. To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human."
The vorlons know something is coming (aka The Coming of Shadows), and they think that Delen and Sheridan are the right people (leaders) to be in place for what's coming down, but they needed to know for sure.. as Lenir said, confirmation. Enter the Inquisitor.. Brilliantly played by Wayne Alexander. It is a great episode, and even better like you said on a re-watch. Probably my 40th time watching it, and I continue to enjoy it more and more each time. I will look forward to your re-watch, and your discussion with Jeff. Till then, Cheers 65 toasts!
We need to remember, Delenn is being questioned, even by her people, with many thinking she is prideful, and she is doing perhaps the right things for the wrong reasons. Here, the Vorlons wanted to know who she really is, what her reasons are, if they can trust her to do what they think is necessary. But I do think after this one, and how they use Jack, people need to ask a question or two about the Vorlons themselves.
@@hornorsilk2901 such was what do they know and what haven't they told us to start :) [keeping it spoiler free]
"One life or a million, it's all the same!" -- Delenn
"He who saves one life, save the world entire" -- Torah (from Schindler's List)
What s the cause -- to win the Shadows war? To save "life"? To save a life, one life?...
Humans response to G'kar makes sense in another level than just not wanting to get into a fight. Narn were the ones who started attacking first. No other species is attacking Centauri outposts so as far as they know, they have no cause to be alarmed.
As to the question of who are you, if you can boil it down to a simple answer of few words, you have not really grasped anything. Every person is a collection of many thoughts, feelings, desires, habits, memories and much more. To properly answer I think would require at least an essay length, if not more, depending on the person. There is no one word or combination of few words, to precisely describe who anyone is. Especially since people are different depending on the situation/environment they are in.
No greater love have a man, that he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, n the dark, where no one will ever know or see...
I don't think G'Kar does hold Vir personally responsible. He never actually blames Vir in this scene, he just can't accept the apology. I think the fact that G'Kar just says he can't forgive Vir is a sign of how far he's come as a character. Season 1 G'Kar would have done a lot worse - the terms of surrender mean that he can't kill Vir, but you can beat someone bloody without killing them - but season 2 G'Kar chooses not to lash out at the one Centauri who's actually shown him any remorse over the war.
The pain in G'Kar's voice when he says "Then I cannot forgive".... it makes me tear up...
This is my favorite season 2 episode.
I've been waiting for you to get to this episode since the Beginning; everything I want to say has already been said. You did quite well comparing Morden's question to the Vorlon's. Vir and G'Kar (not Kosh) in the elevator is some of the best tv EVER.
I liked Londo and G'Kar at the elevator. Starting very harmless, they talk each other into rage with the poor guy standing between them, and at the end, the elevator is gone with the guy, but without them. “Look, what you have done!”
@@Nikioko Actually, it's even better than that. The line was "Now look what you made me do" which is a direct quote from that other marvelous double act, Laurel and Hardy. 😄
My second favorite episode of this fantastic series. A Victorian gentleman WOULD use biblical references in discussing huge events. I was surprised to see that they kept the reference to the East End of London but the captioning correctly read West End.
The Ripper killings took place in the East End. JMS made a mistake when writing up the script.
Enjoyed the reaction. I agree this episode is better on a rewatch.
I'll also say in asking how Vir can apologize to the dead G'Kar is asking him what he's materially doing about what's going on, which isn't anything right now.
I read once that JMS said the "WHO ARE YOU", is a technique used with recovering addicts to make them get clarity.
Unfortunately, this technique does not work on B5 addicts.
Why is that unfortunate?
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime We don't get much more clarity.
This episode was a great one-on-one character piece and also saved a bunch on the special effects budget since they spent so much last on the episode (and the season finale was still coming! LOL)
Anna was John Sheridan's wife. Elizabeth is the name of his sister.
Without revealing any of the coming storyline, I will point out that there is a B5 feature length episode/TV movie called "Legend of the Rangers".
I can't give you more of an answer than that, at this stage. As for whether they are revealed more in the main story, you'll have to wait and see.
The biblical references from Sebastian are appropriate given the time he was taken from by the Vorlons.
And the chances are they all go over Delenn's head and just confuse her even more.
@@nagillim7915 The part based on religion probably would. The underlying philosophy is pretty understandable. Delenn is smart and religious and can relate to statements about morality and the soul, so I think she would be fine. She might miss some of the allusions to scripture, or as a member of the religious caste, she might have studied some of the more basic religious literature of humans. If Picard could figure out Darmok, Delenn could figure out the meaning of stories that she didn't necessarily know.
What is this episode about?
...
I'd only just started recording B5 on VHS back in the day, maybe two or three eps before this. Fortuitous, because this one took several viewings before I understood:
It's not about Delenn.
It's not about Sheridan.
It's not about G'kar.
It's not even about Sebastian.
With all those characters eliminated, who's left?
It's about them.
This has never been one of my favorite episodes, I really don't like the scenes with Sebastian... I can't say how I've changed my mind, on this, slightly, because of spoilers so I will save it for the rewatch. But there is so much really good stuff in this episode the I had just forgotten were in THIS episode (I assumed they were in season 3). As with many things B5 memory has a way of playing tricks on you. Still, not one of my favorites, but that scene with GKar and Vir,... the first time I saw this episode I don't think it clicked for me, I just felt bad for Vir, after the rewatch it is one of those scenes that stick with you...
This does not even look like a TV show. It's a theater play. Whenever I watch this episode I'm expecting lines of chairs being hidden in the dark area of the set.
Given that Mira Furlan was an established classically trained theater actress back in Zagreb before Balkan wars went loose, you can definitely see her act as a pro.
I think one of the really interesting things about this episode is, how through their choice of Sebastian and the methods he employees in their service, it makes you question the Vorlon's "good guy" status a lot.
Well, obviously they gave Sebastian a chance to redeem himself. So, Londo is not lost, by that standard.
I would be ok if Londo got taken by the Vorlon, shown the error of his ways and put into service for helping the Galaxy.
@@Babylon5FortheFirstTime Well, we'll see whether this is gonna happen. 😆
Another actor who was Jack the Ripper appeared in Babylon 5. Actor David Warner. I'm not kidding.
You don't understand... but you will.
For all the rave reviews usually given to the actors playing Londo and G'kar ,this episode belongs to Mira Furlan's Delenn
Think part of this one is knowing that the Vorlons have visited Earth alot in the past, at least 400+ years ago.. perhaps even longer as they are 10,000's of years old as a race.
"Yes, the Vorlons have been to Earth. The Vorlons have been everywhere. The Vorlons are."
@@TheDanEdwards and remember, if the Vorlons are millions of years old as a species, what does that say about the Shadows, "who were old when even the Vorlons were young"... one of the likely first sentient species in this galaxy.
Something we often fail to register: this entire Operatic setting is limited to ONLY the Milky Way... no specific mention about other galaxies. Let your minds run rampant! :D
@@ZakhadWOW - given the few distances mentioned in the show, it would all seem to taķe place within a tiny part of the galaxy.
If you were to take those distances seriously then the Rim they talk about isn't the rim of the galaxy but probably just the rim of the local Orion Spur. And while the Orion Spur is about 10,000 light years long, 3500 across and 1000 thick, the whole galaxy is about 170,000 light years across (making Earth over 50,000 light years from the edge and over 30,000 light years from the core).
If the reboot comes then i hope we either get no references to distances in dialogue or JMS gets a science advisor who knows their astrography. Back in the 90s we really had hardly any idea of our place in the galaxy and how far away things were (we thought the galaxy was only 100,000 light gears across and only discovered the rest of it in the last 20 years) whereas now we have half decent 3D maps of the space within 20,000 light years of Earth thanks to the gaea telescope data...
Thank you. Thank you.
lol, the subtitles say "on the West End" :)
Interesting fact: the Babylon 5 Comic Book, which was cancelled right before they could do it, would have shown the ranger who was sent on the mission for G'Kar. I am not sure how official the comics are, but I think they tend to be semi-official, that is, sort of like rumors which tell a bit of truth mixed with confusion (when they contradict something shown on screen)
JMS said all comics and novels are canon. You as a viewer do not have to consider them such, but they took care not to contradict the show.
The sense of asking forgiveness to people, is not pointless per se. A person admit his/her wrong doing, in some culture this is also an humiliation, a sacrifice of your own honor we could say. But because apologizing is still in fact nothing but words, we can say that logicaly speaking, the basic condition for such act of humility to have value, is the one apologizing, speaking to someone who has been wronged AND! Can listen to his/her words.
G'kar is a Narn rappresentative, even a member of their governament if I remember correctly: in normal circumstances, he could has been more than entitled enough to listen and accept Vir's apologizes.
But in this case, probably because the Centauri not only subjugated the Narn homeworld, but they also obliterated it, he's telling him that for his words to have any meaning, any "weight", he should apologe to the direct victims of the Centauri's attacks. But they both knows that this is impossible. In a way or a other, the dead cannot listen to him so yeah! A little unfair, but G'kar decision not to accept Vir's apologizes, makes sense.
Words doesn't have value in this particular situation.
one of my fav characters in d&d was based on the inquisitor the arrogance and the self righteous style
Vir probably would’ve probably preferred the stab in the chest over what G’Kar actually did.
t=14:21 Ha you've got me dead to rights! And probably a lot of other fans here.
When delenn shares control of the rangers with Sheridan, she splits her loyalties. This is why the inquisitor is brought in.
I think that is a to narrow interpretation. It could be a factor in it, though.
Bret, dude, you're making me scratch my head about you.
I didn't know Star Trek DS9 Duet episode by its name, but I decades later still vividly remember the story.
You weren't captivated by that story on the 1st watching? Well I probably have a few of those too.
@joeychicago6436 Brett said that the person he was showing it to for the first time wasn't enthusiastic about 'Duet', not that this was his view.
@@Macilmoyle Whoopsie!
I also followed it up with saying I’m not sure what my first reaction to Duet was. But one thing I know, it’s an episode that just gets better everytime I watch it. I suspect this episode is like that.
I wish you watched 2 episodes a week!
I really like this one. Not everyone does. One reviewer gave it 0/10! It goes against expectations, to be sure, after the last episode, but it is needed. Not only do we get to see the Rangers put to work, we also see we can and should question the Vorlons, if this is what they think is acceptable. But beyond that, the intensity of the episode really works -- and that comes from one of its inspirations, the Prisoner. The other inspiration I suspect is from Ellison who had an interest in Jack the Ripper, and even wrote a follow-up to a Bloch story about the ripper taken to the future...
15:20 Brent not having understandings ...
The performance of "Sebastian" was great ... his manner of speaking might not be period perfect, but the different timing/rythm and general slow speaking gives it a lot of weight (when he does so).
Anna is Sheridan's wife. Lizzie is his sister.
For shame though, that you skipped over that delightful dialogue between Jerry and Andreas for the smuggling scene (Garabaldi's data crystal).
The Patreon version has the entire commentary, including that scene.
Yup, gotta leave something for the Patreon folks. Also, I’m trying to bring the time for these reactions to under 15 minutes, which just means some things have to hit the cutting room floor.
Ramifications of the B plot Vir looking on during G'kar's demonstration, and the lift scene do eventuate in the future. You will know it, when you get to it. No when, where or how spoilers.
A wise man knows that he does not know 🤔
"what remains to be seen is if he knows that he doesnt know" - paraphrase is mine :P
A great bit of theater. This episode implies everything is about to go down, and the Vorlons need assurances, thus building the drama. It serves as a pallet cleanser between the big effects-driven action of The Long Twilight Struggle and Fall of Night. By their titles, you can tell that they were written as a set but Inqisitor was inserted to give the effects people time to complete the job. There are cases when Babylon 5 literally got episodes assembled just prior to airing them due to the high effects loads.
You compare Delenn and Sebastian in this episode to Moritza and Major Kyra in DS9's "Duet". I can see why -- dialogue pieces where what is said is much more important than any actions scenes (though here we do have a B plot with G'Kar, unlike The Duet which was entirely dedicated to Moritza -- and rightfully so, in my opinion). But I see them as fundamentally different. Moritza was trying to attone for what he perceived as his cowardice, his inability to do anything while the 'Butcher of Gallitep' did his dirty deeds. It's about what a 'good' Cardassian can do when confronted with what their government did -- a pretty darn interesting question. But in this episode, that's more Vir vs. G'Kar -- it's their question. Sebastian and Delenn are dancing around the question of identity -- who are you? Why should we think that you are the person we need for this war? Why should We The Vorlons side with you? How do you know you have what it takes? And you observed correctly that as soon as Sheridan showed up, he started also being a part of it: Sebastian seemed as interested in testing him as he was in testing her. That's again not Duet, which was entirely a two-person thing (with significant roles played by outside observers like Odo).
You also mention how your first reaction to Duet was kind of meh-ish. Yes, the show grows on you with time. I suppose everybody has their own action-to-character enjoyment ratio -- some like more action pieces, others more those that delve into the depths of a character. Duet, however, was special because of its double trick -- Moritza pretending to be Gul Darhe'el pretending to be Moritza --and the lengths to which Moritza went to make the whole thing believable. This is, well, genius. Even after my first viewing I couldn't help going 'wow! who came up with THIS idea?' at the screen. It was beautiful. SImilarly, with Sebastian and Delenn. Because, as you point out, we have to figure out who we are at some point... don't we?...
All of this is fair. To be clear, my comparison to Duet was based mostly in the idea of how “two-people in a room talking” can often be some of the most compelling television out there, even if the first time viewing makes you go “meh.”
I truly suspect this is one of those episodes that only gets better every time you watch it. -Brent
I like this episode but the final reveal is a bit of a shark jump but on the other hand I don't know how they can more conveniently establish the Vorlons involvement in Earth history.
I think it is good to know that this is also the end of a redemption arc. Not Londo's, but Sebastian's.
Every show at the time seemed to have a Jack the Ripper story, not sure why America is obsessed with a foreign serial killer when they seem to own the brand, regardless this is one of the better interpretations.
@@Nikioko Indeed!
I stil remember Star Trek invoking Jack the Ripper in the "Wolf In The Fold" TOS episode. Interesting differences
Yeah, they wanted someone who we view as a monster, who we don't know a lot about so we can't judge if their actions are in line with what we know, and who disappeared without a trace after doing monstrous things. Jack the Ripper meets all the qualifications.
To be honest, this is not my favorite episode. But I do think it's pretty good, and it does hold greater significance than at first appears.
And yes, Anna was the name of his wife, not sister
"It's OK to not forgive the entire group -- I get G'Kar... but it's not right." This sounds so modern now, with the Russian-Ukrainian war, doesn't it?... Let's say that the basic idea here is that of collective guilt. Is there some way in which all Centauri are responsible for the massacre of the Narn homeworld? Is there some way in which all Germans are responsible for the Holocaust? Or all Russians for the atrocities in Ukraine? Or all Americans for Vietnam, or for any wrong thing the American government may have done?
We should think about this question -- whether there is at least responsibility (if guilt is too much) to be shared by all members of a group whose leaders are committing atrocities.
I agree but, as Londo's attache, Vir is a prt of the Centauri government. A bottom tier official, no doubt, but a member nevertheless.
As a low-level government worker myself (lower even than he is) i do feel for Vir. He has no control or say in what's going on but by remaining in his post he can be deemed complicit in it.
I know i spend a large amount of my time at 2am when i can't sleep doing moral calculus: does the work i do directly for the benefit of members of the public balance out the decisions those in power take that bring harm? I know there may come a point where i have to resign because i can't agree with government policy, but does that actually help anyone who it's within my power to help or would i simply be abandoning what good i could do because of harm i wouldn't be directly responsible for and had no power to prevent? Would my resignation in such circumstances be a selfish act abandoning the people i help on a daily basis, or a morally justified one in not condoning policies i can't agree with? I don't know that i know the correct answers to those questions...
I've never really cared for inquisitor part of this episode. The G'Kar part of it was ok though. Vir and G'Kar in the elevator was amazing.
OK, missed it. This obviously came at 3 am.