I would like to 100 yard 5 shot grouping comparison between typical annealed and un-annealed brass from the ssme lot of braas. Include graphs for the batch of brass for annealed and un-annealed brass from the AMP press. This will give me some basic information about the on-target of annealing brass.
It's been over two years since I have been able to buy primers. I won't buying reloading presses until we get primers on the shelf that the working man can afford.
All you basically told me is that annealing your brass to the right thing to do. I don't see a valid reason to waste my money on something like this. Great Video!
It's more of an F-class typ tool. It's for the guys that are doing everything thing they can to make every single round they produce the same. I think this would be over kill for even the PRC guys unless they are actual pro level and this is what they do for a living.
Doesn't Lapua anneal the brass before it leaves the factory? Would like to see accuracy and ES data alongside the seating force. How do you know lower seating force is better independent of any results?
Wait I thought this was about competitive shooting. Where’s the shooting? I want to see the first 5 group with the rounds in order. Is that first round a flyer?
The fact there is so many questions here, means there are so many things that this press can test to see what helps groups and what doesn’t. Comparing new brass vs when it’s been fired 10+ times, lube vs no lube, etc Gav’s going to be busy! Go the Kiwi inventors
For people who have previously used the Hydro Bullet Seater from 21st Cenrury or are thinking about buying something, this press is definitely an option. Not everyone drives a Ferrari and yet there are enough buyers that they can make a good living from it. Who needs a Ferrari when you're only allowed to drive 55mph anyway? Some of the comments make me really understand people - who needs that? But so it is often in life that you don't really need a lot. Everyone should decide for themselves.
I'd like to see you seat a series that has 4 consistent and one outlier on the graph then mark which ones they were and shoot them to see if the outlier becomes a flyer
This is incredibly cool. Having the ability to know without a doubt how changes in your process affect neck tension and consistency is just fantastic. And this makes a huge case for the annealer.
Like that you mentioned processes. I feel like it would help identify inconsistencies caused by your process more than anything. Though maybe also on great occasion weed out bad materials. Would help detect when you've failed in your routine process.
If you take this press to seat your bullets means you already use a Wilson die and an arbor press. It can only tell you there is a problem when seating your bullets (but not what it is the cause), but... you can already feel it easily by hand with the arbor press !
@@br4713 What this thing does is to put a number on it... or rather a set of numbers, represented by the shape of the curve. Whether you feel you need that is up to you.
Hey Gavin did you not notice that the very first projectile was the ONLY one that fully seated on the first 5? You can clearly see the top cap of the in-line die bottoms out ONLY on the first projectile. The 4 that follow they're long by 1/16 or maybe even 1/8; if you measured CBTO those last 4 they would be ridiculously long. You can even see it in your dataset as the X axis goes a lot further on the very first projectile. You can literally see the bullets are seated longer in the ones lined up on your table on the left...
Neck tension is one of the most important factor. More consistent neck tension means more accuracy. Annealing brass cases improves neck tension consistency that's why now I anneal each time.
@@br4713 you missed the point there. All things are made to a tolerance. Hand loading is for two reasons. You have nothing better to do. Or You don’t shoot much. Let me qualify that. The tolerance is just that tolerance. When the bullet leaves the barrel. Nature takes charge. This press is a nerds wet dream. Where tolerance goes to die.
Have AMP coming to my NZ Deer Stalkers Assoc. club night in Tauranga, New Zealand in September as guest speakers. Looking forward to it. Will wear my UR tee shirt 😉. Thanks for all the great equipment reviews!
Seeing a direct comparison to varying levels of case prep on overall accuracy on a particular rifle would be great. I imagine a multi stage test process with 4-5 varying levels of case prep. Start with a clean rifle fire a control group of off the shelf ammo. Clean and repeat with each stage of prepped cases
I'd like to see a comparison between cases prior to turning the necks. Then pull the bullets and FL sieze again. Then trim the necks. And then use your new toy.
Thanks for the great video, I just went to their site and studied everything on it. I have started a small batch ammo assembly factory and have been searching for a great case prep diagnostic tool, and here it is! I am using Pharma-style QC sampling plans for production yet, - this is going to be a game-changer for my team during the early round development stage. I am ordering one today.
And thus the value of the machine. You can test and see with actual proof and hard numbers what works and what doesn't. All the old voodoo that people think works can be tested now. As for the annealing at the factory, do they anneal before they form the necks or after? Don't know? Neither do I.
@@tyler6147 All brass is annealed as a final step in the neck. it would be rock hard and you wouldn't be able to seat a bullet otherwise (well, you could, but it wouldn't be pretty). so regardless of weather or not it has an anneal "line" they are all annealed
You too can own one of these OCD therapy devices for only $19,995! Or you can continue to evaluate your reloading process by shooting groups on the range. 🤔
I’m sure it would be nice BUT, I’m not about to take out a 2nd mortgage to get one of these. Before long there will be no art or skill left, only science and robots!
I think you just saved me on the press, but sold me on the annealer. The video proves the AMP annealer is the tool that gives you more consistent pressures while seating. Cheers. Now, battling the wind and getting a trigger press (my finger) to be as consistent as that AMP press.
Please compare seating between annealed then loading and annealed then wet tumbling before seating, I'm very interested in the result pls. Thanks for great vids!!!
Since you ask,I would like to see how hexagonal boron nitride coated projectiles seat compared to bare projectiles,and whether The hbn coated projectiles seat consistently. And the obvious question, How do bullets that are seated with close seating pressures compare to ones that are erratic in their seating pressure,when shot at the range. This will be the true test to see if this is worth the effort. Your scientific approach to reloading,is,in my opinion excellent.
Gavin, awesome video, but I use K&M's arbor press with force measurement gauge (light and standard), When I get the number I want there record rounds, the ones a little off are sighters, way off (not often) foulers. K&M's does what the AMP does and only cost's $275 and my bench wouldn't have room for it :) I do own the AMP Annealer and LOVE it!!
I can see some value in this press to measure the benefits of annealing and other brass prep steps in the reloading process. Then to eliminate outliers before they become fliers when shooting for competition. Thanks for showing us this new equipment.
Hi Gavin, As a fellow Kiwi I’m very proud of the AMP guys. I would love to see a video on the differences in neck tension using different sized mandrels, and how that manifests on both internal and external ballistics…AMP press curves for different mandrels/neck tension?
@@Russell-1 yeah the black nylon Chinese finger trap type stuff makes wires look choice, little heat shrink at each end to make it tidy. If I get one I’ll probably add it, but I don’t think I can justify it till I’m turning necks.
Hey Gavin Great video! I would like to see: - The same bullet seated in cases from different manufactures. - Different bullets seated in cases from the same manufacturer. - A comparison of new brass, once fired brass (resized), twice fired brass (resized), triple fired brass and so on. This could be done with cases from different manufactures to conclude which cases handle the stress of firing best without annealing as part of the case prep. - A comparison of applied seating force for lead core bullets and monolithic copper alloy bullets. - Comparison of annealing practices. Could you use the seater when using your expander ball? I look forward to see more content with this equipment combined with some pratical tests (some shooting😄)
Can annealing be used to get similar results form different brass manufacturers. IE can brass be tuned to match a curve. Getting info is good but can it be used tune the loading.
No they’re not. They give em away to elite shooters. Those shooters endorse and get paid to get them sold. It’s a sales tactic of smoke up non ELR shooters asses that they NEED this. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 ppl will pay. Only those with more money than sense of course.
$1395.00, if you want precision bullet seating not a lot of money. I purchased from Uintah Precision an upper barreled rifle for about $1295.00 no lower was available at the time, so I waited for three years. I ordered and received it and installed it to the upper barreled action.
I'm glad I bought their annealer. Buy once, cry once. I don't want to have to fuck around with spending 500$~ and then configuring its torch to get the right work done.
Patrick C Annie annealer does same thing as amp for $650. The analyzation of brass is smoke up your ass. But hey! They’re endorsed by world class shooters! So they MUST BE REAL! Yea ok. Give me proof the machine is annealing at the most perfect anneal possible without tweaking the setting. There’s none and no one can prove such a thing. Period. Secondly? The press is measuring the amount of force it takes from 0-finish. So you know the brass is consistent. Nice! But needed? Nope. Before it came out? Many were fine without it. ELR shooters were doing fine beforehand. But amp will give one away to a top notch ELR shooter and have him endorse it. Then? Whatever he says? His cult following will buy one. Sales 101. They pay you to say something? You’ll do it. Period. It’s bullshit at best
I would like to see groups covering various reloading practices shot from a bench-clamped pressure barrel in a ballistic tunnel at the greatest range possible, to completely rule out wind and human factors. Then I would like to see them shot by the best human shooters available in the same ballistic tunnel. Then I would like to see those human shooters do it again in the field, on a bad day, with shifting winds. At that point, we would see how much of the benefit gets lost in the noise of "stuff that happens on the day". One thing I don't doubt this is going to be good for is showing exactly how various case-handling practices affect seating force. How that affects performance on target is going to be interesting to watch. The most interesting thing of all will be to see how various batches of the same cartridge case (e.g. all Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor from one lot) might behave if different AMP annealer settings are used with all other factors held constant.
So,yeah!Lots of talk,but we want to see practical tests,whether it makes a difference,and it's worth the money and efforts!!!I seriously have my doubts,that an average rifle benefits from all this!
Great information. Using this press, I’d like you to compare the AMP annealer ($$$) with other brands. Do I need to spend that much on an annealer or will one of the other (less expensive) torch annealers provide similar constancy in seating pressure.
Great tools,.... Expensive. However, you failed to show the seating deviations. I think most people watching would also be interested in knowing just how accurate this unit can seat.
the press pushes all the way the head of the die all the way down to the stop against the body : seating is the same as with the same die under the manual arbor press : always the same .
The first case to be used would expectedly show a different result. Any machine would need a "break-in" if only just the first run. The initial pressure would seat all the parts. Neck tension is more important than reloaders understand. When I annealed my .223 cases for my 600 yard shooting I gained 200 fps velocity at the target. I also shot a 200 out of 200 points and 16 x's out of 20 x's. That's with a 52 grain bullet.
I love my AMP Annealer and AMP Mate. I have collets for ~7 calibers. I think the guys in NZ are amazing and they make great products. I watched the first demos from Shot Show videos way back when and STILL I can't see why I would drop a mint on this. I shoot 37XC out of a Tubb Advanced Target Rifle and 338 Lapua out of a AI AX338MC rifle at steel ~2km away... so I'm probably the target market and still... I'm not about to buy this thing. What you didn't go into was.... what is a good graph look like? I'd like to know how to set the seating depth... and finally, the expectation is that if I'm loading 100 rounds, I'm supposed to seat all those bullets completing the laborious tasks of removing the old, adding the new case, new bullet, put the top on, slide it around the beam and then go over to my computer and click OK? Guys... The target audience of people that will want this product, need this product, and then afford this product has got to be tiny. Brian Litz, Erik Cortina, Gavin, and a handful of other people on the planet. Maybe I'll eat my words in 10 years... but I just can't fathom it.
I think you're right. Most precision shooters (which I am most definitely not) would be better served by waiting to see what the world precision rifle leaders who are actually shooting can deduce from their results, and seeing if their case-handling practices converge towards an identical solution. About the only thing it seems to identify for the casual shooter is which of their cartridges assemble inconsistently from the rest, which might be useful from a quality-control perspective when it comes to case handling, but again it's pointless if they aren't already using straight-line dies that are compatible with the machine. Speaking of which, if you had access to a machine shop, I'm sure you could rig up some sort of flat-topped plunger to make this thing work with a Lee Loader, because that too is a straight-line die.
Totally agree, there is inherent variation in reloading components. Past a certain point you're chasing shadows. Even batch to batch variation on the same component from the same manufacturer.
Great review, interesting piece of gear. Looking forward to empirical testing versus actual range time. What reloading practices affect bullet press linearity? Does it make a difference on target? What kind of difference? This type of info can transcend to basic loading practices for everyone, all ships rise. Looking forward to the new videos, thank you for all of your efforts.
What we never saw was the consistency of base to ogive. It would be good to measure the result of all 10 of these rounds, especially the outlier to see if not only was the neck tension consistent, but the base to ogive was consistent.
Why do the traces on the plot get truncated on top as you add more traces? Looks like the first traces do not reach the zero on the x-axis as you add more traces.
Wow!!! What ever did our fathers and grandfathers do before all of these much needed ( LAB ) QUALITY PRESSES, ALONG WITH ALL OF THE MUCH NEEDED OTHER PRESSES AS WELL, HAD CAME ALONG? my it's a wonder they even were able to make a kill with out all these wonderful PRESSES along with the laptops with the much needed data. How on earth were they ever able to make their kills to feed their families. With only those primitive firearm. Wow!!! I should consider myself just as lucky, for I too do not have all the great gear as here on this channel. Just an older guy who loved to hunt in the high back country. Reloaded my own ammunition. With what I could afford at the time. And boy I must say I must have had an angel with me all those times in my hunts as well. Because you see I brought out Mule Deer, elk and so on, l was able to keep my freezers full the god. With just an old rifle as well as scope. Some long distance shooting were needed from time to time Back in the day guys. Now I know I'm not the only one here who have been able to do the same. So this said keep shooting and hunting guys. Take your time and keep reloading your own. And God Bless you all and this great Nation of ours. Along with this Nations truly elected president and his beautiful wife and family. PRESIDENT ( DONALD TRUMP. )
Let’s calm the heck down. No one is forcing you to buy this product. I’m sure the guys chasing .10 MOA may appreciate this machine. I don’t think it’s worth it either, but good god man…
Come up with a way to graph the bullet pull to unseat these bullets. Consistency revolves around the pull, the consistency of powder ignition, and if you can get consistent bullet engraving into the rifling. Measuring the assembly process is Ok, but does not measure the results.
but the bullet isn't "pulled" when its fired, so that measurement will do nothing. that will have as much to do with the consistency of the neck tension and reamer design as anything.
@@michaelkeenan4008 You are partially correct. The bullet is not pulled, it is released, and part of the release is controlled by the neck tension until the gas pressure builds enough to expand the neck to the walls of the chamber. So measuring the actual pull force is a valid indicator of the quality of the neck tension perhaps better than the seating force measurement. Bullet release is not instant although normal thinking would indicate it is so. You have to look at the time frame in micro seconds, not as we live and breath.
Hi Gavin, did you resize the cases after annealing or go straight to the seating process? Perhaps it would be interesting to see the results if annealing is done prior to annealing vs after annealing? Great video as always. Thanks
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Thanks Gavin; great review of an awesome tool! I would like to see a side-by-side comparison of neck lube used inside the necks of Lapua annealed brass. The lube pro-shooters are using: No lube w/ clean necks No lube w/ dirty necks One shot Neo Lube #2 Johnson's Paste Wax Powdered graphite These have all been allowed to dry after application. This is exactly the tool needed to make scientific determinations in seating consistency. Thank you!
I'm jealous that you have bullets and presumably powder LOL. I'm flush with CCI450's but can't find H4350 and bullets to save my life. Also you're not annealing new brass are you? I wouldn't think you'd need to do that given you haven't worked the brass at all yet.
@@redrock425 yeah it’s real faint but it’s there. Of course after your first resize then have at it. I suppose he was just trying to show comparatively and also get in a bit more of AMP’s products ;) I have the annealer but haven’t used it much outside of checking that it works because powder and projectiles *sigh*
Check with your local Sportman’s warehouse on their Facebook page. That’s how I have been buying primers and powder. Everyone else has inflated prices and hazmat/shipping fees.
@@ArpexOfficial I’ve managed to scoop about 1400 CCI 450’s from my local Bass Pro 2 sleeves of 100 per day. I could get 5 but they force you to get their credit card for that 🙄 The only powder they’ve gotten in of late is Pyrodex and nobody has touched it a whole 4 pounds 😬
This seems more like a science experiment than a reloading tool. Does it even reduce group size? According to Bryan Litz there is no correlation between case annealing and accuracy. It only helps with life of the case. This amp press adds some layers of complication to the reloading process and has not proven to reduce group size. Maybe we could see some comparative analysis on rounds loaded using the amp press vs a RCBS press.
@@newerest1 I did not say there was no correlation between neck tension and group size. I was referencing the findings the Bryan Litz book makes. I believe in the chapter on neck tension he posted the results of annealing tests. He found annealed brass resulted in no measurable increase in accuracy. We all want to believe there are things we can do that will absolutely reduce our group sizes. I mean annealing will give you more consistent neck tension right? This must always lead to smaller group sizes right? It sounds good and makes sense. Human bias is a very real factor in testing. Take a look at time 25:03, interview Gavin Lawrence/Bryan Litz at Shot Show 2020. (ruclips.net/video/0lpeTTrbcGw/видео.html) I tend not to put to much of a grain of salt in a product evaluation done by the product manufacturer. They have put their heart and soul in this product and believe it will work. I like the scientific unbiased method Applied Ballistics and Ultimate Reloader use in their approach to testing. This is truly geek stuff and Bryan Litz is even a bigger geek than Gavin, and I mean that in the best possible way.:) So back to the AMP press. It looks more like a scientific evaluation tool rather than a reloading press. It doesn't measure or tell you the neck tension. It measures the force required to seat a bullet. Can it tell me if I am getting one thousand neck tension or eight thousand neck tension? Can I use it to get smaller extreme spreads? Will smaller extreme spreads result in a smaller group size? What it does seem to do well is evaluate the relative force required to seat each bullet which can indirectly be used to evaluate whether or not neck tension is consistent. I'm quite sure there is a lot I don't know about the AMP press since I haven't had one hands on yet. If someone does some scientific testing and can show it somehow results in a lower ES or group size, I'll probably buy it. For now it just gives pretty bullet trace lines on a graph. This is my opinion on annealing and neck tension which means it it not based on scientific evidence. I anneal every firing before sizing. I feel annealing helps preserve the life of the brass and helps the neck retain more malleability. Using calipers to measure neck tension is inconsistent at best. I use pin gauges to measure neck tension. My target is 2-3 thousand neck tension on the bullet. I use three pin gauges to measure neck tension. The three pin gauges measurers 2.0 thousand, 2.5 thousand, and 3.0 thousand neck tension. I insert each of these gauges into the brass neck after resizing. If the brass case falls within 2-3 thousand neck tension it moves on , if not it goes to another pile for further evaluation and possible resizing. Using this method has provided me with the best consistency for neck tension.
Great video! Amazing company. I'm looking forward to seeing the test's on different types of cases and cartridges. Also test's on the various means of case cleaning. ultrasonic, steel pin or dry tumbling. What variables are induced? Case lube types? Neck tension? What are the differences between reloading die types? The rabbit hole is a deep one. Is it possible to improve accuracy of pistol cartridges with a press of this design? It would be nice to see the results using a rail gun or ransom rest. Keep up the great work, your work is fascinating.
I'd be curious to see the results between neck turned brass or lubed necks. Maybe dry graphite lube vs imperial wax. Even new bullets vs HBN coated bullets vs HBN with lubed necks. My curiosity is endless!
I could write a novel of questions, but with all your other detailed reloading work, if you numbered your case and looked at seating force, measure seating depth, then runout, can you isolate the best rounds that end up the most precise?
Perhaps this has already been mentioned for testing, but I’d love to see a comparison of seating force for different worked hardened necks after AMP annealing. That is full length neck sized X thousands under final neck dimension and expanded Y thousands to final neck tension dimension. How much can you expand the necks; 1/2 thou, 1 thou, etc. and still get consistent results.
Old school Creedmore target shooting. Back in the late 1800s large bore single shot rifles, mostly 50-75 and the like but occasionally a 45-70, would compete on long range target challenges with high grade iron sights. A few years ago there was a resurgence in interest in that kind of shooting. Mostly it was made up of guys who were really into the movie, Quigley Down Under. I don’t hear about much it these days though. I ask about this tool because I genuinely don’t know if it would have any affect in this instance. I’m betting not.
@@jeffreyhallam5517 In the myths there is always a part of truth, but in the movies they like to magnify the miraculous aspect ot these myths (I'm thinking about cowboys and snipers movies) because it makes us dreaming. I think that if you're shooting with open sights it's impossible to see any difference by using this machine, because many other factors will have way more influence. Don't worry about this machine unless you shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 100 yards consistently. As Erik Cortina says, make it simple.
It appears the my fresh Lapua 6.5cm brass is annealed out of the box. secondly, I assumed that and annealed case would require more force to seat since the brass is hardened. what am I missing? The consistent pressure is impressive though. Thanks. 'toobe.
Looks pretty good. Four feet instead of three, for stability, and perhaps a protective cover for the electronics would improve it. It seemed a but ackward, reaching around to the front to put the seating die in the horseshoe. Should that be reversed?
With the availability of primers this makes sense to reload as slow as humanly possible j/k
I still can't believe that annealer doesn't have a digital touch screen (for a $1600 unit!).
I just ordered an AMP annealer today, good timing.
Their annealer is worth it, but for this press it's pure money waste to my mind.
I would like to 100 yard 5 shot grouping comparison between typical annealed and un-annealed brass from the ssme lot of braas.
Include graphs for the batch of brass for annealed and un-annealed brass from the AMP press. This will give me some basic
information about the on-target of annealing brass.
It's been over two years since I have been able to buy primers. I won't buying reloading presses until we get primers on the shelf that the working man can afford.
All you basically told me is that annealing your brass to the right thing to do. I don't see a valid reason to waste my money on something like this. Great Video!
It's more of an F-class typ tool. It's for the guys that are doing everything thing they can to make every single round they produce the same. I think this would be over kill for even the PRC guys unless they are actual pro level and this is what they do for a living.
Analyse brushing necks, dirty v circular drill brushing v straight in and out plunge brushing please.
Doesn't Lapua anneal the brass before it leaves the factory? Would like to see accuracy and ES data alongside the seating force. How do you know lower seating force is better independent of any results?
There's not a benefit downrange according to experiments ran by applied ballistics. Lots of anecdotes backing that up.
Lower seating force is a whole different story from consistent seating force.
Wait I thought this was about competitive shooting. Where’s the shooting?
I want to see the first 5 group with the rounds in order. Is that first round a flyer?
All in good time, lots of experiments and empirical data to come...
Totally agree. What is the point if there is no "statistically significant" affect on down range performance.
@@Ultimatereloader if you got the TIRs that you got with a CoAx, this would be interesting to you.
The fact there is so many questions here, means there are so many things that this press can test to see what helps groups and what doesn’t. Comparing new brass vs when it’s been fired 10+ times, lube vs no lube, etc Gav’s going to be busy! Go the Kiwi inventors
And as you released this video, FedEx dropped off an AMP Press at my door!!! Nice to watch you set up before I open the box!
SWEEEEET! You're going to love it!
For people who have previously used the Hydro Bullet Seater from 21st Cenrury or are thinking about buying something, this press is definitely an option. Not everyone drives a Ferrari and yet there are enough buyers that they can make a good living from it. Who needs a Ferrari when you're only allowed to drive 55mph anyway? Some of the comments make me really understand people - who needs that? But so it is often in life that you don't really need a lot. Everyone should decide for themselves.
I'd like to see you seat a series that has 4 consistent and one outlier on the graph then mark which ones they were and shoot them to see if the outlier becomes a flyer
Thank you Alex & Matt! No better way to show your annealers capabilities! awesome.
Matt and Alex are awesome. Super-passionate about the sport and the science!
This is incredibly cool. Having the ability to know without a doubt how changes in your process affect neck tension and consistency is just fantastic. And this makes a huge case for the annealer.
Like that you mentioned processes. I feel like it would help identify inconsistencies caused by your process more than anything. Though maybe also on great occasion weed out bad materials. Would help detect when you've failed in your routine process.
If you take this press to seat your bullets means you already use a Wilson die and an arbor press. It can only tell you there is a problem when seating your bullets (but not what it is the cause), but... you can already feel it easily by hand with the arbor press !
@@br4713 What this thing does is to put a number on it... or rather a set of numbers, represented by the shape of the curve. Whether you feel you need that is up to you.
Another great video super informative keepem coming !!
I need a 1,000 rounds by the weekend. Be ready for pickup 2024.
Hey Gavin did you not notice that the very first projectile was the ONLY one that fully seated on the first 5? You can clearly see the top cap of the in-line die bottoms out ONLY on the first projectile. The 4 that follow they're long by 1/16 or maybe even 1/8; if you measured CBTO those last 4 they would be ridiculously long. You can even see it in your dataset as the X axis goes a lot further on the very first projectile. You can literally see the bullets are seated longer in the ones lined up on your table on the left...
As an engineer, this is satisfying and impressive. Thanks but now I want one haha
Wish you would have shot groups with that first set of rounds and the annealed set of rounds to see if there was a difference in accuracy!!
Absolutely!!Just what I was thinking myself!
Neck tension is one of the most important factor. More consistent neck tension means more accuracy. Annealing brass cases improves neck tension consistency that's why now I anneal each time.
@@br4713 you missed the point there.
All things are made to a tolerance.
Hand loading is for two reasons.
You have nothing better to do.
Or
You don’t shoot much.
Let me qualify that.
The tolerance is just that tolerance.
When the bullet leaves the barrel.
Nature takes charge.
This press is a nerds wet dream.
Where tolerance goes to die.
@@onemanriflemaker3873 Sorry!But your knowledge about ammo is pretty rudimentary!Stick to factory ammo!
@@pebo8306 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣ok Ken
Give it some time to prove itself. Gavin is the Ultimate Salesman.
Your unboxing music just turned me into a Fudd.
Have AMP coming to my NZ Deer Stalkers Assoc. club night in Tauranga, New Zealand in September as guest speakers. Looking forward to it. Will wear my UR tee shirt 😉. Thanks for all the great equipment reviews!
Awesome!!!!!! Thanks for representing!
Seeing a direct comparison to varying levels of case prep on overall accuracy on a particular rifle would be great.
I imagine a multi stage test process with 4-5 varying levels of case prep. Start with a clean rifle fire a control group of off the shelf ammo. Clean and repeat with each stage of prepped cases
I'd like to see a comparison between cases prior to turning the necks. Then pull the bullets and FL sieze again. Then trim the necks. And then use your new toy.
Thanks for the great video, I just went to their site and studied everything on it. I have started a small batch ammo assembly factory and have been searching for a great case prep diagnostic tool, and here it is! I am using Pharma-style QC sampling plans for production yet, - this is going to be a game-changer for my team during the early round development stage. I am ordering one today.
Lapau brass is annealed from the factory !!!
And thus the value of the machine. You can test and see with actual proof and hard numbers what works and what doesn't. All the old voodoo that people think works can be tested now.
As for the annealing at the factory, do they anneal before they form the necks or after? Don't know? Neither do I.
@@tyler6147 All brass is annealed as a final step in the neck. it would be rock hard and you wouldn't be able to seat a bullet otherwise (well, you could, but it wouldn't be pretty). so regardless of weather or not it has an anneal "line" they are all annealed
@@michaelkeenan4008 Go to 19minutes into Erik Cortina's new video today. The interview with the AMP people. They discuss this exact phenomenon.
You too can own one of these OCD therapy devices for only $19,995! Or you can continue to evaluate your reloading process by shooting groups on the range. 🤔
Right, and even on your reloading bench there are cheaper solutions
I’m sure it would be nice BUT, I’m not about to take out a 2nd mortgage to get one of these. Before long there will be no art or skill left, only science and robots!
That can happen at 69 cents if we get there I will explain I hope not 😭
I think you just saved me on the press, but sold me on the annealer. The video proves the AMP annealer is the tool that gives you more consistent pressures while seating. Cheers.
Now, battling the wind and getting a trigger press (my finger) to be as consistent as that AMP press.
Wow. That show great consistency👍
Please compare seating between annealed then loading and annealed then wet tumbling before seating, I'm very interested in the result pls.
Thanks for great vids!!!
so excited about this. you beat Eric to it. lol
I know he's right behind me! :)
He's too busy banging out barrel tuners ;-)
@@JamesReedy thats it. he made his choices lol
Erik’s was posted on Patreon this morning.
Since you ask,I would like to see how hexagonal boron nitride coated projectiles seat compared to bare projectiles,and whether
The hbn coated projectiles seat consistently.
And the obvious question,
How do bullets that are seated with close seating pressures compare to ones that are erratic in their seating pressure,when shot at the range.
This will be the true test to see if this is worth the effort.
Your scientific approach to reloading,is,in my opinion excellent.
That German club music is LIT. 😂 awesome press.
Thank you for noticing :) :)
I used to love reloading. Its all become way to complicated with all the new gadgetry! More power to you if you have time for all this.
I still love reloading but I'll stick to my Dillon and Forster CoAx. This stuff is just getting out of hand... and so are the prices!
Gavin, awesome video, but I use K&M's arbor press with force measurement gauge (light and standard), When I get the number I want there record rounds, the ones a little off are sighters, way off (not often) foulers. K&M's does what the AMP does and only cost's $275 and my bench wouldn't have room for it :) I do own the AMP Annealer and LOVE it!!
I can see some value in this press to measure the benefits of annealing and other brass prep steps in the reloading process. Then to eliminate outliers before they become fliers when shooting for competition. Thanks for showing us this new equipment.
Nice presentation and thanks for sharing. Please test out neck turned & annealed vs no neck turned/annealed brass after it's been tumbled and sized.
Hi Gavin,
As a fellow Kiwi I’m very proud of the AMP guys. I would love to see a video on the differences in neck tension using different sized mandrels, and how that manifests on both internal and external ballistics…AMP press curves for different mandrels/neck tension?
Also love the extra detail and education you provide, ELR guys here are watching
So cool! Excellent review, thank you.
Glad you liked it!
Cool gadget! I am curious about the dimension repeatability of the case base-to-ogive length.
That length is still set by the die, the only variable would be the consistency of the ogive profile.
They really should put those motor drive wires inside of some black nylon webbing/tube it would look way more polished.
I have to agree, the lack of a tube looks untidy if nothing else. I’d be applying a length of the spiral wrap if it was my machine.
@@Russell-1 yeah the black nylon Chinese finger trap type stuff makes wires look choice, little heat shrink at each end to make it tidy. If I get one I’ll probably add it, but I don’t think I can justify it till I’m turning necks.
LOL, then they would have to charge you another $500 additional!
Does this data translate to consistent velocities? Accuracies? That’s what we need to see.
Hey Gavin
Great video!
I would like to see:
- The same bullet seated in cases from different manufactures.
- Different bullets seated in cases from the same manufacturer.
- A comparison of new brass, once fired brass (resized), twice fired brass (resized), triple fired brass and so on. This could be done with cases from different manufactures to conclude which cases handle the stress of firing best without annealing as part of the case prep.
- A comparison of applied seating force for lead core bullets and monolithic copper alloy bullets.
- Comparison of annealing practices.
Could you use the seater when using your expander ball?
I look forward to see more content with this equipment combined with some pratical tests (some shooting😄)
Can annealing be used to get similar results form different brass manufacturers. IE can brass be tuned to match a curve.
Getting info is good but can it be used tune the loading.
AMP is just way to proud of there stuff!
No they’re not. They give em away to elite shooters. Those shooters endorse and get paid to get them sold. It’s a sales tactic of smoke up non ELR shooters asses that they NEED this. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 ppl will pay. Only those with more money than sense of course.
Have you found any correlation between the graphs with velocities and accuracy? If so, how would you sort them out for a PRS match?
$1395.00, if you want precision bullet seating not a lot of money. I purchased from Uintah Precision an upper barreled rifle for about $1295.00 no lower was available at the time, so I waited for three years. I ordered and received it and installed it to the upper barreled action.
The graph you get is between force applied vs distance?
Insanity, three grand for the press and annealer? Lots of other ways to make precise ammunition...
A set of calipers and mic`s have suited me just fine for well over 50+yrs.
Can buy a lot of brass and calipers for that cash.
I'm glad I bought their annealer. Buy once, cry once. I don't want to have to fuck around with spending 500$~ and then configuring its torch to get the right work done.
Patrick C Annie annealer does same thing as amp for $650. The analyzation of brass is smoke up your ass. But hey! They’re endorsed by world class shooters! So they MUST BE REAL! Yea ok. Give me proof the machine is annealing at the most perfect anneal possible without tweaking the setting. There’s none and no one can prove such a thing. Period. Secondly? The press is measuring the amount of force it takes from 0-finish. So you know the brass is consistent. Nice! But needed? Nope. Before it came out? Many were fine without it. ELR shooters were doing fine beforehand. But amp will give one away to a top notch ELR shooter and have him endorse it. Then? Whatever he says? His cult following will buy one. Sales 101. They pay you to say something? You’ll do it. Period. It’s bullshit at best
Best advice I have ever been given, never listen to a sponsored person. This was said from a sponsored person lol.
I would like to see groups covering various reloading practices shot from a bench-clamped pressure barrel in a ballistic tunnel at the greatest range possible, to completely rule out wind and human factors. Then I would like to see them shot by the best human shooters available in the same ballistic tunnel. Then I would like to see those human shooters do it again in the field, on a bad day, with shifting winds. At that point, we would see how much of the benefit gets lost in the noise of "stuff that happens on the day".
One thing I don't doubt this is going to be good for is showing exactly how various case-handling practices affect seating force. How that affects performance on target is going to be interesting to watch. The most interesting thing of all will be to see how various batches of the same cartridge case (e.g. all Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor from one lot) might behave if different AMP annealer settings are used with all other factors held constant.
So,yeah!Lots of talk,but we want to see practical tests,whether it makes a difference,and it's worth the money and efforts!!!I seriously have my doubts,that an average rifle benefits from all this!
Great information. Using this press, I’d like you to compare the AMP annealer ($$$) with other brands. Do I need to spend that much on an annealer or will one of the other (less expensive) torch annealers provide similar constancy in seating pressure.
Eric Cortina will publish a video soon on this very subject.
Will it work after an EMP?
Great tools,.... Expensive. However, you failed to show the seating deviations. I think most people watching would also be interested in knowing just how accurate this unit can seat.
He showed how the seating depth was set in the video!
the press pushes all the way the head of the die all the way down to the stop against the body : seating is the same as with the same die under the manual arbor press : always the same .
=8
Was it just the camera angle, or did the machine fail seat to projectile all the way in to the case on the first 5 attempts?
LOL
12:05 the seater does not look like it went all the way down.
Would look to see you do defrint bullets.....
I like it! looking forward to seeing the results on paper.
Pretty awesome!
Dry lube vs wet lube
Different case prep methods
Number of firings
I would like to see the difference depending on the Annealing method. Annealeez vs EP 2.0 vs AGS vs Bench Source vs AMP???? :-)
The first case to be used would expectedly show a different result. Any machine would need a "break-in" if only just the first run. The initial pressure would seat all the parts. Neck tension is more important than reloaders understand. When I annealed my .223 cases for my 600 yard shooting I gained 200 fps velocity at the target. I also shot a 200 out of 200 points and 16 x's out of 20 x's. That's with a 52 grain bullet.
What's it cost?
Why did you anneal the cases after using the virgin factory cases? Shouldn’t they have already been annealed at the factory?
Consistency is King.😀
I love my AMP Annealer and AMP Mate. I have collets for ~7 calibers. I think the guys in NZ are amazing and they make great products. I watched the first demos from Shot Show videos way back when and STILL I can't see why I would drop a mint on this. I shoot 37XC out of a Tubb Advanced Target Rifle and 338 Lapua out of a AI AX338MC rifle at steel ~2km away... so I'm probably the target market and still... I'm not about to buy this thing. What you didn't go into was.... what is a good graph look like? I'd like to know how to set the seating depth... and finally, the expectation is that if I'm loading 100 rounds, I'm supposed to seat all those bullets completing the laborious tasks of removing the old, adding the new case, new bullet, put the top on, slide it around the beam and then go over to my computer and click OK? Guys... The target audience of people that will want this product, need this product, and then afford this product has got to be tiny. Brian Litz, Erik Cortina, Gavin, and a handful of other people on the planet. Maybe I'll eat my words in 10 years... but I just can't fathom it.
I think you're right. Most precision shooters (which I am most definitely not) would be better served by waiting to see what the world precision rifle leaders who are actually shooting can deduce from their results, and seeing if their case-handling practices converge towards an identical solution. About the only thing it seems to identify for the casual shooter is which of their cartridges assemble inconsistently from the rest, which might be useful from a quality-control perspective when it comes to case handling, but again it's pointless if they aren't already using straight-line dies that are compatible with the machine. Speaking of which, if you had access to a machine shop, I'm sure you could rig up some sort of flat-topped plunger to make this thing work with a Lee Loader, because that too is a straight-line die.
Totally agree, there is inherent variation in reloading components. Past a certain point you're chasing shadows. Even batch to batch variation on the same component from the same manufacturer.
Great review, interesting piece of gear. Looking forward to empirical testing versus actual range time. What reloading practices affect bullet press linearity? Does it make a difference on target? What kind of difference?
This type of info can transcend to basic loading practices for everyone, all ships rise. Looking forward to the new videos, thank you for all of your efforts.
Thank you for all you do
You are welcome! Thank you for watching, appreciate it!
13:06 What is. “Annealing” I never heard of it
www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/the-not-so-arcane-art-of-brass-annealing/detail.htm?lid=16032
So dont worry with this video if your happy like this.
Have you thought of using feeler gages for more repeatability? The press only seats bullets?
What we never saw was the consistency of base to ogive. It would be good to measure the result of all 10 of these rounds, especially the outlier to see if not only was the neck tension consistent, but the base to ogive was consistent.
Old cleaned brass and different dies would be great.
Hey can you shoot a group of hand loaded one and then machine loaded! be nice to see if it makes a difference for the money!
Are you neck turning your cases??
Also where and how did you adjust seating depth?
That's built into the die!
Just got one
Why do the traces on the plot get truncated on top as you add more traces? Looks like the first traces do not reach the zero on the x-axis as you add more traces.
Wow!!! What ever did our fathers and grandfathers do before all of these much needed ( LAB ) QUALITY PRESSES, ALONG WITH ALL OF THE MUCH NEEDED OTHER PRESSES AS WELL, HAD CAME ALONG? my it's a wonder they even were able to make a kill with out all these wonderful PRESSES along with the laptops with the much needed data. How on earth were they ever able to make their kills to feed their families. With only those primitive firearm. Wow!!! I should consider myself just as lucky, for I too do not have all the great gear as here on this channel. Just an older guy who loved to hunt in the high back country. Reloaded my own ammunition. With what I could afford at the time. And boy I must say I must have had an angel with me all those times in my hunts as well. Because you see I brought out Mule Deer, elk and so on, l was able to keep my freezers full the god. With just an old rifle as well as scope. Some long distance shooting were needed from time to time Back in the day guys. Now I know I'm not the only one here who have been able to do the same. So this said keep shooting and hunting guys. Take your time and keep reloading your own. And God Bless you all and this great Nation of ours. Along with this Nations truly elected president and his beautiful wife and family. PRESIDENT ( DONALD TRUMP. )
Let’s calm the heck down. No one is forcing you to buy this product. I’m sure the guys chasing .10 MOA may appreciate this machine. I don’t think it’s worth it either, but good god man…
Trump lost. Cry more
Come up with a way to graph the bullet pull to unseat these bullets. Consistency revolves around the pull, the consistency of powder ignition, and if you can get consistent bullet engraving into the rifling. Measuring the assembly process is Ok, but does not measure the results.
but the bullet isn't "pulled" when its fired, so that measurement will do nothing. that will have as much to do with the consistency of the neck tension and reamer design as anything.
@@michaelkeenan4008 You are partially correct. The bullet is not pulled, it is released, and part of the release is controlled by the neck tension until the gas pressure builds enough to expand the neck to the walls of the chamber. So measuring the actual pull force is a valid indicator of the quality of the neck tension perhaps better than the seating force measurement. Bullet release is not instant although normal thinking would indicate it is so. You have to look at the time frame in micro seconds, not as we live and breath.
Heh, still using a Lee Hand Press. I'm not exactly in the market for this, but it's pretty interesting.
Wow very nice! Only if I can afford the set up one day, would like to see some groups with that press..👍👍
Just buy an arbor press and save yourself hundreds if not a thousand.
Hi Gavin, did you resize the cases after annealing or go straight to the seating process? Perhaps it would be interesting to see the results if annealing is done prior to annealing vs after annealing? Great video as always. Thanks
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I see on the first go around the bullets did not seat to the bottom of the die seat stim on a few. Hmmm! I know it's been two years.
Thanks Gavin; great review of an awesome tool! I would like to see a side-by-side comparison of neck lube used inside the necks of Lapua annealed brass.
The lube pro-shooters are using:
No lube w/ clean necks
No lube w/ dirty necks
One shot
Neo Lube #2
Johnson's Paste Wax
Powdered graphite
These have all been allowed to dry after application.
This is exactly the tool needed to make scientific determinations in seating consistency.
Thank you!
I'm jealous that you have bullets and presumably powder LOL. I'm flush with CCI450's but can't find H4350 and bullets to save my life. Also you're not annealing new brass are you? I wouldn't think you'd need to do that given you haven't worked the brass at all yet.
Indeed Lapua comes annealed, you can see the colour change on the cases.
@@redrock425 yeah it’s real faint but it’s there. Of course after your first resize then have at it. I suppose he was just trying to show comparatively and also get in a bit more of AMP’s products ;) I have the annealer but haven’t used it much outside of checking that it works because powder and projectiles *sigh*
Check with your local Sportman’s warehouse on their Facebook page. That’s how I have been buying primers and powder. Everyone else has inflated prices and hazmat/shipping fees.
@@ArpexOfficial I’ve managed to scoop about 1400 CCI 450’s from my local Bass Pro 2 sleeves of 100 per day. I could get 5 but they force you to get their credit card for that 🙄 The only powder they’ve gotten in of late is Pyrodex and nobody has touched it a whole 4 pounds 😬
I would like to see results from a flame annealer compared to amp annealer. Might sell more amp's
Awesome video do you by chance have a link so I can check this product out how much it is?
I think it's nice thanks Gavin it's niet
This seems more like a science experiment than a reloading tool. Does it even reduce group size? According to Bryan Litz there is no correlation between case annealing and accuracy. It only helps with life of the case. This amp press adds some layers of complication to the reloading process and has not proven to reduce group size. Maybe we could see some comparative analysis on rounds loaded using the amp press vs a RCBS press.
I highly doubt there is "no" correlation with neck tension and group size. Maybe at close ranges like 100 yards.
@@newerest1 I did not say there was no correlation between neck tension and group size. I was referencing the findings the Bryan Litz book makes. I believe in the chapter on neck tension he posted the results of annealing tests. He found annealed brass resulted in no measurable increase in accuracy. We all want to believe there are things we can do that will absolutely reduce our group sizes. I mean annealing will give you more consistent neck tension right? This must always lead to smaller group sizes right? It sounds good and makes sense. Human bias is a very real factor in testing. Take a look at time 25:03, interview Gavin Lawrence/Bryan Litz at Shot Show 2020. (ruclips.net/video/0lpeTTrbcGw/видео.html)
I tend not to put to much of a grain of salt in a product evaluation done by the product manufacturer. They have put their heart and soul in this product and believe it will work. I like the scientific unbiased method Applied Ballistics and Ultimate Reloader use in their approach to testing. This is truly geek stuff and Bryan Litz is even a bigger geek than Gavin, and I mean that in the best possible way.:)
So back to the AMP press. It looks more like a scientific evaluation tool rather than a reloading press. It doesn't measure or tell you the neck tension. It measures the force required to seat a bullet. Can it tell me if I am getting one thousand neck tension or eight thousand neck tension? Can I use it to get smaller extreme spreads? Will smaller extreme spreads result in a smaller group size? What it does seem to do well is evaluate the relative force required to seat each bullet which can indirectly be used to evaluate whether or not neck tension is consistent. I'm quite sure there is a lot I don't know about the AMP press since I haven't had one hands on yet. If someone does some scientific testing and can show it somehow results in a lower ES or group size, I'll probably buy it. For now it just gives pretty bullet trace lines on a graph.
This is my opinion on annealing and neck tension which means it it not based on scientific evidence. I anneal every firing before sizing. I feel annealing helps preserve the life of the brass and helps the neck retain more malleability. Using calipers to measure neck tension is inconsistent at best. I use pin gauges to measure neck tension. My target is 2-3 thousand neck tension on the bullet. I use three pin gauges to measure neck tension. The three pin gauges measurers 2.0 thousand, 2.5 thousand, and 3.0 thousand neck tension. I insert each of these gauges into the brass neck after resizing. If the brass case falls within 2-3 thousand neck tension it moves on , if not it goes to another pile for further evaluation and possible resizing. Using this method has provided me with the best consistency for neck tension.
Great video! Amazing company. I'm looking forward to seeing the test's on different types of cases and cartridges. Also test's on the various means of case cleaning. ultrasonic, steel pin or dry tumbling. What variables are induced? Case lube types? Neck tension? What are the differences between reloading die types? The rabbit hole is a deep one. Is it possible to improve accuracy of pistol cartridges with a press of this design? It would be nice to see the results using a rail gun or ransom rest. Keep up the great work, your work is fascinating.
How much does it shrink your group size?
I'd be curious to see the results between neck turned brass or lubed necks. Maybe dry graphite lube vs imperial wax. Even new bullets vs HBN coated bullets vs HBN with lubed necks. My curiosity is endless!
Id love to see all the above!! Very cool
I could write a novel of questions, but with all your other detailed reloading work, if you numbered your case and looked at seating force, measure seating depth, then runout, can you isolate the best rounds that end up the most precise?
Great Video.
Perhaps this has already been mentioned for testing, but I’d love to see a comparison of seating force for different worked hardened necks after AMP annealing. That is full length neck sized X thousands under final neck dimension and expanded Y thousands to final neck tension dimension. How much can you expand the necks; 1/2 thou, 1 thou, etc. and still get consistent results.
Will it work on a compressed load?
Yes, 10 pound hammer provided in the package
For anyone wondering $1,395.
Does it matter if the case is strait wall? For example like a .45-70? I feel like this is only for chambers head spaced off of a neck.
Why would you need that for a 45-70 ???
Old school Creedmore target shooting. Back in the late 1800s large bore single shot rifles, mostly 50-75 and the like but occasionally a 45-70, would compete on long range target challenges with high grade iron sights. A few years ago there was a resurgence in interest in that kind of shooting. Mostly it was made up of guys who were really into the movie, Quigley Down Under. I don’t hear about much it these days though. I ask about this tool because I genuinely don’t know if it would have any affect in this instance. I’m betting not.
@@jeffreyhallam5517 In the myths there is always a part of truth, but in the movies they like to magnify the miraculous aspect ot these myths (I'm thinking about cowboys and snipers movies) because it makes us dreaming. I think that if you're shooting with open sights it's impossible to see any difference by using this machine, because many other factors will have way more influence. Don't worry about this machine unless you shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 100 yards consistently. As Erik Cortina says, make it simple.
It appears the my fresh Lapua 6.5cm brass is annealed out of the box. secondly, I assumed that and annealed case would require more force to seat since the brass is hardened. what am I missing? The consistent pressure is impressive though. Thanks. 'toobe.
Annealing brass reinstates elasticity to the material. Unlike steel where annealing hardens the material.
Looks pretty good. Four feet instead of three, for stability, and perhaps a protective cover for the electronics would improve it. It seemed a but ackward, reaching around to the front to put the seating die in the horseshoe. Should that be reversed?
Thanks Ken. That was just me showing you all the front of the press while I worked it. Normally it would face the operator :)
@@Ultimatereloader d-oh! Of course. I thought that, right after I hit "send"!😁