The way I see it, as an invader, we have three options to combat griefers: 1) Sever out. If you value your time, just move on and block 'em on Steam or PS or whatever. The healthy, normal person option. 2) Play along. Treat it like a normal invasion and take the fight to the host, even if they're using underhanded tactics. For players who like a challenge. Most gankers are bad at the game anyways, so with a little luck and some patience you can win eventually. 3) Reverse grief. If you don't value your time and are filled with spite as I am, just waste their time right back. I've spent many of my 26 years playing online games and the best and funniest way to deal with griefing is to fight fire with fire. Run when they try to fight you. Hide. Stand where they can't reach you, especially on ladders. Throw projectiles at them. Do all this until they give up and either are forced to engage meaningfully with the game or disconnect/fogwall you, in which case you win because they got mad and now you are griefing them, not the other way around. A Rorschach "I'm not trapped in here with you, etc." situation.
Griefers also have a fair bit of overlap with cheaters/exploiters. Another plague that, while done by far fewer people, leads to griefing and toxic behavior. And there is no real good option to deal with the cheaters due to a lack of a simple multiplayer feature: a report feature which comes naturally with some form of moderation. As for the people who are diehard pvp haters, I long ago in the distant past had my anti-pvp phase. And I want to offer what I can gleam from it to the conversation. Basically, it began from being bad at PVP and getting penalized by losing a large sum of gear in another game. Practicing pvp with this foundational experience in mind equated to losing large amounts of in game wealth (AKA time) after. This left a grudge towards the game mode, which equates to the feelings of devastation and loss at the consequences of my younger selves actions in over-estimating my own ability to perform in pvp. And some people love carrying grudges. Mine was sustained for a good while because due to being bad at pvp (due to no practice). Any cherry-picked evidence of observed toxicity, griefing, ganking, etc led to the grudge feeling justified and more valid. To feel like a victim and to feel the grudge is justified because "people who do pvp must all be scummy bullies" due to needing that grudge to get valid. All from...a rather petty case of younger me making mistakes and paying for it in loot. PvP became a monolith - it didn't matter where it was, it was always the "same." The funny thing about this phase is there is a catch. At the edges of my mind, where I could deny it and push it aside passing thoughts. "Boy, that pvp looks like it would be fun!" - but so powerful and so great was the need to validity those underlying foundational feelings of losing a buncha gear to a pvp'er, that the grudge meant those thoughts of pvp being anything but toxic sludge had to be denied. Pushed aside, and cast out. Which, for some, leads to doubling down. Or seeing anyone who says other as an enemy to be defeated. PvP thus in any game doesn't really start from a clean table. Even if the community would do its part and keeps it clean, it will likely always come with such baggage. People got beat in another game in another decade, lost gear, and declare the game mode as evil due to having feelings of distress and even a bit of sorrow at losing all their efforts over a personal miscalculation and lack of skill due to no prior practice. It's thus a tainted well scenario. And such comes with the people who hold an almost Pavlovian response to pvp doing their darnest to combat "evil pvp" by keeping the well full of as vile poison as possible. Usually these foundational emotions and experiences do come at a young age, after all. And few have someone to talk to who will take them serious about them. They are valid emotions, that needed dealing with and processing for said alarmed children. Yet due to being at a young development point, general internet culture/RL behaviours dissing on emotions, lack of emotional intelligence or skill sets to handle them such things can in time become an automatic Pavlovian response. Where PvP = Bad, evil, misery, suffering, feeling inferior and bad, not fun. Ask a person who does not like pvp, and you will usually get "I just don't." Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect, though, there is far more to it than that, as I've learned to identify a disguised "I rather not talk about it" well enough. Because people still do not have good emotional intelligence skills, and don't want to likely tell a story they feel is embarrassing enough. Very few people like to openly talk about their failures, after all. Ergo, the conversation is lacking, due to the side that hates pvp like it's a plague upon this land being unable or unwilling to completely express the full picture. And even if they were able to, there is a legit and very valid probability of getting made fun or, mocked, or dissed for it. And thus we can't talk about these things, we can't fix these things, we can't figure our solutions or solve anything. We just have a factionalist mob mentality that likes pointing fingers at each other in a black vs white narrow mindset while trying to claim moral and intellectual superiority.
It's important to understand the roots of any topic or issue. "Little Jimmy" getting dunked on in another game, as it turns out, can have a dramatic impact on how their thoughts and feelings are shaped when they reach adulthood. A foundational experience dealt with alone has that kind of power.
Very good points all around! The baggage of gaming is only going to get heavier, so the better we can talk through these issues and actually understand them, the better off we'll be. Thanks for sharing!
The premise here is pretty interesting. Because we're forced to admit "griefing" has no solid definition and relies on personal experience, every instance of attribution of said experience is a direct reflection of the game we're playing that comes through in parallel with player playing it, at the very least. The nuance here is extremely slippery. Just last week I was surprised watching a Sgt. Jager vid wherein he repeatedly said he had a problem with poison in ~rl30 invasions, which sounded borderline absurd to me. Because if that's a "problem", I do not know what to call a blood antspur invader then. My spectrum of the "acceptable" is different from his, of course, and I think that's the whole point here, or at least most of it. We can't even decide what's permissible, what the "rules" are. On a more personal note, my "griefing" in this game probably peaked very recently while invading at rl175. I got ganked in a Limgrave cave by aoe overlords and did something I had never: I went to the cave and re-invaded nonstop, but severed just as the invulnerability window was timing out. Over 30min of this, over and over again, completely exhausted the trio, and eventually the host dissolved into chainsawing on spawn, which they thought would work (?) and then being already in the animation on spawn, which I guess they thought would work better (it didn't) - they never got another kill, and there was no else in there for them. Eventually, I broke them and they logged off the game. Within the first 5min I expected a block, but it somehow never happened, and so I went on and on giggling at the screen with every sever I did as they flailed at the invul window as if they didn't know for a fact it'd never work, but the frustration of not getting that guaranteed kill which was eternally on the horizon for them, now unreachable, clearly did something to their psyche. What broke them? Me? The game? Themselves? I really don't know. But Jon's point is apt, I did trade my time and theirs, and what should've been an hour of some ER PvP turned into what I just described: griefing, a waste, nonsense... whatever anyone wants to call it. And I'll never get that time back - true as anything that's truly true.
Whole thing is fucked to be sure. There are no real rules and as much as that can be charming, it causes problems. I love it for what it is and hate it for what it isn't. I really just want to inspire the best in people wherever possible while staying as aware as possible that sometimes it's okay to be the worst.
I don't think you wasted your time, cause it gave you a sense of satisfaction by getting back at griefers on behalf of a collective you feel a part of. You know that letting them be would have caused them to gank multiple other invaders over and over, so you gave em a taste. Is it moral? Idk. Is it righteous? Maybe. But I wouldn't say you wasted your time by wasting theirs.
Whenever I encounter ganksquads just sitting out in the open world/ grace camping just waiting for an invader to torture I usually just mimic veil and go AFK and block them all. I feel some twisted sense of justice wasting their time and taking up the invader slot to save other reds from their abuse. These people are the sort that would cook ants with a magnifying glass when they were children.
Not at all some of us just don't like invaders it's really that simple, the joy you feel wasting a group's times is just returned ten times over when you 3 man gank a person.
Great video! There's nothing worse than three gankers staying at the Site of Grace waiting for you to come in and accept your fate. Meanwhile, they won't come out and accept their fate if they have to fight a few birds. It gets to a stalemate, and all we can do is plan and wait. It's too bad we have these chickens that are 200 levels higher than us that either dragon breath us or cower in their little hole.
After I used PVP also invasion, I noticed that no one wants to play fair 1vs 1 anymore, instead they attack completely disrespectfully or start spamming right away, even if you are a friendly invasion person, the brutality of 3vs 1 is still very noticeable.. well and at DS3 I noticed that everyone was very friendly, which really shocked me, I even enjoyed losing because we both fought fairly without healing. and I feel that in Elden Ring there is a kind of hatred when the invasion comes to me or to them. but Nevertheless, there were moments in Elden Ring where I, as a team leader (Bloody Finger), got a bunch of players to use Mimic's Veil and we all ran around like a gang in Limggrave , that was nice ... or the one time I did led the host to a magic spell , he was overjoyed afterwards. So.. In the End there are also good moments as a Bloody Finger. ( in my perspective) But yes, there are good PVP or invasion moments and there are bad ones... you just have to deal with it, but the most important thing is that you shouldn't lose your fun! PS: Praise the Sun ! and May the sun enrich your days with warmth and happiness.
Its not just invasions, I see so many people in the arena instantly running to get a cheap attack while you are emoting, buffing or simply didnt realize the loading screen was over yet. I remember players having more etiquette for duels at least my ds3 pvp days, idk why now everyone just that obcessed over a quick cheap win.
Your commentary style definitely growing on me. Was not sure how to feel 6 minutes in, but the ideas you expressed was fascinating and now what I expected by the end. Liked, and subscribed.
I used to always play offline back in the day. Dark souls 1... Somehow seeing that "invaded" message terrified me. Somehow, when I played DS2, I dipped my toe on pvp (iron keep bridge). When I played DS3 for the first time, I did it with a work buddy. We finished every session with some pvp matches. Best out of 3. Today, I love being invaded when playing. It gets me pumped knowing that a dangerous enemy is lurking by. My point is... It is an acquired taste. But once you engage in it....
Well said. It really is the sort of thing that I get why people hate it at first. I feel you have to engage with it in a sincere fashion and even try it from the other side for it to click but once it does, dang is it sweet.
I'm in love with your videos. Thank you for spreading the good word. My journey to GIT GUD, began in DS3 as just a way to understand the game and to progress. And then it excitingly became to survive invader attacks as a solo host. The next step had me invading other players and how to beat the three man teams and the joy that it brought. These days I find myself having the most fun as a solo host around or under level 60 with minimal armor and an uchigatana (zweihander in pocket) searching for fun areas to engage in fun fights with the taunters tongue on. I do have a very high win rate but the biggest win for me is when I'm involved in a back and forth battle that comes down to the very last hp and after one of us falls, maybe a fist is thrown in the air or maybe a bow is selected but either way im most elated when my opponent defeats me and I gave them my all. Because I know how the journey to become GUD it's not an easy one. And to some the journey to be GOOD is never realized. But in that moment I feel good for everyone involved.
Your youtube video eassys are very good. This channel seems promising. Reminds me of a more hinged saint riot. If you want guidance on anything youtube related, just ask. I can also direct you to someone more experienced than me.
Very much appreciate the support, and any saint riot comparison is high praise! I've only been at it for a little under 2 months so I'm sure there's a ton of things about RUclips that are gonna throw me for a loop. So far, I've just been throwing out whatever comes to mind and what I find most interesting, though I've considered getting into the streaming side of things. Side note, I really like that you call people bots.
I think if we had covenants we could at least mitigate some of the problem, I think the reason griefing is such a big thing in elden ring is that there just isn't enough to do for a pvper compared to previous games which had around 3+ different pvp styles. In elden ring there is only the bare bones fundamental stuff like invading as a red or being a blue summon. Need more covenants that offer a unique multiplayer experience, like gravelord servant, belfry covenant, rat king covenant, dragon covenant, abyss covenant, blue sentinel/way of blue etc. Elden ring just has you either play red or blue, and if you play blue you're 9/10 times gonna be summoned to an AFK host. If you play red then you're just gonna fight gankers all the time. The game is IMO, starved for more multiplayer side content. Covenants at least allow us to switch off from a certain game mode if it gets too boring or too sweaty etc. I'll never understand why they took this aspect away from elden ring, because it is a system that lends itself to the vast open world so well, and yet they were like "hmm I think we will scrap it". I would like to add to this by saying that there are covenants in previous games that lend themselves very well to the griefing mindset, such as rat king or gravelord, and those kind of covenants being missing is why I think griefing is more pronounced. Sure it wouldn't filter them all out, but it would at least curb the effects on the general invasion pools.
I am constantly wishing for covenants and their functions to return. Even if it wouldn't reduce the total number of griefers or griefing scenarios, it would help to outweigh them with more meaningful engagements. In my mind, multiplayer was just ported from Dark Souls 3 in it's most basic form, so anything that didn't need to be changed to fit the new game didn't even get re-added. They just focused elsewhere the whole time and when it came down to what to do with multiplayer, they mostly left it alone in the worst way.
@@emotionaljonxvx I couldn't agree more. It's a shame too because they have so much older yet meaningful content that could easily be retooled for elden ring.
I was so pissed ER didn't have covenants. I was late to the souls series so I've never engaged with the pvp, but I loved the concept of covenants. I was excited for ER pvp because I was finally going to be able to get in on the ground-floor of a souls-game pvp at launch and do cool covenant stuff. When I discovered there weren't covenants, I was so salty about it that I just played the whole game completely offline. The worst part about it is now I actually know the lore and am super into it, know all the factions and stuff etc. - so when I play the game I just see all these missed opportunities where cool covenant stuff could have been incorporated. It's a shame - it could have went so well with this game. Like imagine a "Frenzied Flame" or "Those Who Live In Death" covenant - you would be tasked with spreading madness/deathroot, other covenants would be tasked with stopping you - and depending on the madness/deathroot level, the world could change in minor ways, kind of like World Tendency from Demons Souls. But no, now we just have this weird amalgamation of mechanics that don't quite make sense lore-wise and seem to be at odds with some of the games core design principles. Seeing the pvp in this state makes me perfectly content with not engaging with it.
the reason i quit ELDEN RING PvP is because of the damn assholes 3 man gank all toxic AOE builds dragon breaths while me just playing a banished knight theme sword and board. and i am instantly going back to DS3 and i can easily mow down every pveers with just a sword and board build even when they're spell spam.
Just play solo offline guys. Elden ring gave the Souls community a huge boost in numbers. Amongst the new faces are people that enjoy pve and co'op. People from genshin impact or the like. Elden ring is beautiful, huge world to explore and lots of dungeons. Get online with your buddy, enjoying the scenery. Then forced PvP against some random in obvious higher gear throwing scarlet rot. The game punishes online play. Treat it like skyrim and play it without internet. From a community stand, if y'all wouldnt be invading low levels to dick around new people, people won't be trying to grief those low level invaders. But some of y'all are toxic about this, claiming getting help from a buddy is bad and you deserve to get invaded. Then complain in a 16min vid when this hostility is returned in kind. For the game itself to fix this issue. Putting a level minimum on invasions is a start. The invasion mechanic is dated. People dont want to deal with others because of toxicity. I hate invading or being invaded. Its always the most obnoxious bs I've delt with from invaders, and i hate interrupting these bros who seem to be vibing in the lakes. The arena though? A place of agreement to PvP? I love that and spend hours doing just that with different builds. But forcing PvP on players trying to game with their friends isn't good. While trying to game with a buddy online i had to be at a super odd level and resorted to blocking everyone who invaded before we'd have some semblance of PvE co'op. Not sure how many are in my boat, but I've given up on multiplayer and play solo. Arena if I'm feeling it, but at least I'm there cuz i want to be.
If you are given the opportunity to grab a gun, and shoot a person, will you? Same thing here. If you are given the opportunity to play in the most universally annoying way possible, will you? As Jon implied, this is all about self awareness. You COULD be the problem, and make it worse. Or you could do your best, to not be problem, even while facing problematic people. Will it change a griefers ways? probably not. Do they deserved being griefed back? Probably, griefing griefers is objectively, morally correct. Following the metaphor, it's like shooting down a killer. but, Is it necessary? in a virutal, fictional world? no, you could very well be, the better person, and still play fair. It's up to us, to make our environment, a better place. From Soft has created completely unique experiences, quite unlike anything else out there, and with top quality. It's nice to not-be part of the problem. It's even nicer, to spread and share the love for something we ourselves love. And nobody will love a painfully pointless experience. Whether as friend or foe, it's good to keep online play enjoyable, for both parts.
While i very much agree with what you said about most of the BS mechanics in pvp/multiplayer being essentially Elden Rings/Fromsofts fault i think it's also important to talk about the things Griefers use that are not intended by the game, those being: glitches (for example backstabbing someone out of the deathblight animation for a infinite death loop), stat cheating (self explanatory) and worst of all, straight up hacking (for example crashing someones game with a giant explosion and a lot of particles). I know that Fromsoft kinda invited those things by always taking very long to patch glitches and using easy anti cheat and i also know that it doesn't happen very often but those are still things that can genuinely ruin your game in much worse ways than anything "intended" and it also serves as a reminder that some people will always find ways to grief others, regardless of what us players or Fromsoft can do.
That is a very good point. I didn't go into cheating or glitching because that's a thing in every game and didn't specifically fit into what I wanted Elden Ring to address. Of course, they should be way more proactive and reactive with how they fix glitches or cheating or any of that but it's something where the game design or oversight or intention isn't always the reason. I wanted to focus on how people play, or don't play, because the game has been set up to not encourage people to do anything in particular, which leaves the door open for people to waste as much time as possible and just generally frustrate the experience. But yeah, glitching can be absolutely rotten in this series.
Very much appreciated the end section about finesse. My favorite way to lose or win is when it's by a specific decision that wasn't expected (like having a forward press ruined by a whip guy, or catching that whip guy with flaming strike) What causes me the most grief is none other than stunlock mechanics that a health bar can't fix. I would rather be rotted early game than stunlocked by a rapid press AOW any day
Some of those guaranteed combos are so insane with damage output I just can't believe it. The amount of times where I'm fighting something and it's like "If that catches me, I die" and then they just spam it over and over and over and over because it's a press to win scenario is very frustrating. Not like anything is actually unstoppable but it makes for a very disengaging fight.
Say you don't know me or recognize my face Say you don't care who goes to that kind of place Knee deep in the hoopla, sinking in your fight Too many runaways eating up the night Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember? We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
About the colosseum, 3v3 spirit ashes etc, i would love to be in the chaos like that again, i only was able to find two matches at the release of the colosseums, and i was thinking, we should organize matches like this you know, set a time of the day so a lot of people would be active. I tried to find an elden ring discord with people who want to do colosseums group fight ordeals but i've been unlucky, think about it!
I used to organize matches with level brackets and all that fun stuff back in Dark Souls 3 and I'd love to do it again. I'll get a discord up and going hopefully soon but I'm really hoping we'll get a bit more to the arenas in the DLC.
Last week I had a phantom sit down with his host at their screens for two and a half hours in weeping RL20 because I kept rolling out of his scarlet aeonia and dual nagis and tried to bait them into chasing me into PVE. Completely grieved. I stayed as a matter of principle after he started throwing dung and pointing down, but it sucked.
It happens all too often. Before Elden Ring released I was excited as the prospect of open world invasions but it has been a lot worse than I would have hoped. Smaller than ever battles in a big, empty field. It stands to reason it often sucks.
I think the main reason people do the whole "not progressing while an invader is present" thing is because this game gives them no reason to. In the previous games you usually needed to fight the enemies to actually progress through the level. In elden ring you just ride your horse past almost everything from boss to boss. Really, in elden ring, there is not level for the pvers to progress through. In previous games, you could wait at the bonfire for the invader, but even if that worked out and you killed the invader, you'd still have to fight all the level npcs afterwards. In elden ring after you kill the invader, you just walk past everything until you get to the boss, with few exceptions.
Very true. I think a lot about how the mobs in the game are unable to stop me from running past them in any meaningful way (save for the 1 in 10 chance they catch me on some bad geometry) and how that's always been interesting/funny/silly in previous entries. But in Elden Ring, with the mounted travel, it really feels like you're supposed to ignore combat if you want to progress at a reasonable pace.
@@emotionaljonxvx In Ds2, running past enemies isn't really possible due to a mix of enemies chasing you to hell and back and fog wall vulnerability. I hated it at first, but now I find myself wishing it made a comeback.
As someone who does a lot of random co-op, I just Finger Sever out if I get summoned by someone camping around the grace/summoning pool waiting for some red to pop in to either instantly whallop or go on a 15 minute running simulator with. Not fun for anyone involved and a waste of multiple player's time, which not everyone has in abundance. That said I do relaize that invaders in normal multiplayer are frequently outnumbered (unless you count the PvE enemies since they can do some heavy lifting in invasions) but sometimes it seems like all they WANT to do is waste your time by spending twice as much time running away than ever engaging in combat. Like not even turn and burn tactics, just straight up booking it like it's a marathon, maybe to go occupy the last elevator in the zone so that you literally can't complete the level while they AFK and have a laugh. Just another time waste when the levels are already larger and take longer to get through than previous games when cooperating. We all play games to have fun in our own ways but going out of your way to waste multiple people's time and usually being disrespectful after the fact? On either the Host or Invader side, Maidenless.
Watching all of this actually made me becom an ivader myself. I've always been a bit neglegant to the idea, but after thinking and giving it a few tries I figured out that, "huh, this is actually really fun". I try to keep my stuff lore friendly since I like the overall vibe. It just seems cooler to be invaded by someone that looks to be from a specific part of the world or as someone you'd expect to see rather than a guy utilizing all of the cheap tactics for easy kills. This here is one of my first times ever bothering to make a long comment to something, but that's becuase I've just found a gem of a channel that I can give props too. Being able to see all the goods and wrongs about invading and admitting to the same mistakes shows he gets it and admitting that's it's bad is just... I don't know where I'm going with this. You get it. All I'm saying is that ivasions is overall a fun concept, and I'll do my best to have fun with it without making my opponents loathe their excistance. So keep doing what you're doing man. You got my sub and I don't think I'll leave. And if you're wondering what kind of build I'm doing(just ranting really), I'm going with a Golden Order assassin like build. A person that is too scared to move on to a new order, so he invades new Tarnished to keep the same age, to keep what he sees as good. Anyways, that's enough of my ranting, and of course to my invader pals... Happy hunting.
Hey Jon, been listening to your videos and glad to hear some similar thoughts on the game. Another point I feel that is, by enabling or even encouraging griefing, the game also simplified the games actions. The early days of playing dark souls feels like non-stop thrilling encounters with people coming in looking for different (but limited) interactions, while fighting seems to be the most complicated one, but people can still feel connected with fun competitive game or simply silly fights. For Elden Ring, just as you talked about in this video, that kind of feeling is rare, as most encounters are players trying to have a easier time with the given toolset. Both hosts and invaders seems to be traumatized enough to develop a very unpleasant strategies to ensure their experience is "fair". And that's imo why it's draining to invade. Then I figured if I attempt to de-escalate the situation, the encounters I have with player might be more chill and pleasant. I tried to play through the game hosting with dry fingers with no great-rune or summons, playing through the game using a strength build. The experience was fairly different, as I feel each and every invader "choose their actions" when I'm on the weaker side needing to deal with the mobs, some are chill, some take full advantages, some goofed arount. It feels instantly less mono, and I'm seeing real people actions that are fun. Anyway, the dlc made me quit the game for good regardless.
On the topic of poison/rot at low levels: rot definitely counts as griefing, but anybody can grab cure poison incant at round table hold if they have 10 faith and 1800 runes. So theoretically anybody past margit should definitely be capable of dealing with poison, and it’s just ill preparedness not to have it.
That is the ever-interesting challenge. If an invader uses something on you and you don't have a counter, I think it's very fair to say "Hey, you were unprepared and this is a learning opportunity." Rot at early levels can be a problem with how inaccessible counters are early game, even if it just makes me think of the toxic blowpipers of Blighttown.
Yes, and I mean, the first enemy that can poison you is probably a land squirt in Agheel or the Miranda flowers at waypoint. That’s where you should learn the lesson. You have to travel to Caelid to find out about rot.
My solution would be to have a mechanic for invasions similar to hunters. If it's 3v1, you get a purple to help as an invader. If it's 2v2 the host gets a blue. those who feel like the invaders are trespassing their game are childish, and I was feeling that way the first week I played, then grew balls.
While I really don't enjoy PVP at all, but I do feel for anyone encountering that kind of behavior. I've been griefed before, most people who've played these games have. And again, while I don't play with PVP enabled in any way anymore. I do hope Fromsoft does help the PVPers out by maybe changing some things around to keep the PVP from devolving any further. While I still hope they keep the PVP segregated, I don't want people who specifically invade, or want to get invaded to go through things like that. I hope PVPers also see why guys like me don't enjoy PVP, and don't make it a mission to insist that PVP be a much larger part of the game than it is at this point, maybe make it on by default, but have a switch so that those who want it and are thereby less likely to grief get matched with others of like mind.
Im not sure how to feel generally about the message besides the end which i totally agree on. My term i used instead of griefing was people "not playing the game" typically people who rather stand at a grace for 20 minutes rather than advance the level in any meaningful regard, or obviously gankers and such. My approach to those nowadays is generally just severing, as i value my time and they don't. I want to spend as much of my time as i can on the game enriching the gameplay of people who are actively taking part in its mechanics, as LORD miyazaki intended by making themed builds with neat setups. As i stated above those people do not care about those things and are basically just either extremely chicken, afraid of a genuine challenge in any regard, or doing this games equivalent of ripping through a pack of newports. This has been my ted talk May this inspire others to make goofy gimmick builds and sever on nurds
Mostly I wanted to communicate my frustrations with how Elden Ring could address any of these issues with non-engagement and whatever else but instead the game just sorts of lets people do whatever they want, though not in the best way. I'm someone who really, really doesn't like the open world so the open world invasions are just a personal nightmare. Really, the video is to highlight that a lot of people call out griefing by using certain builds or items or whatever, but my line really comes in when whatever they're doing slows or stops the game. Mostly a roundabout way of me saying "Do whatever you want, just play" and then me wishing the game was better about incentivizing engagement.
@@emotionaljonxvx ah i see, that makes sense. Btw good work on recent videos dude. I like these introspective videos on the pvp of fromsofts games, bc when i think about it The stuff you talk about applies to not just souls games, but a lot of other pvp games aswell.
It's interesting to hear what sort of grief bothers you in particular. It truly is different for everyone. A host camping the bonfire has always seemed pretty logical to me. If they die, they can pick up their souls easy. They aren't going to get rushed just as they aggro a bunch of mobs. All in all it's a smart play. I especially don't have a problem with this in previous games, where the host might very well be embered and alone. Even in ER with a host and a co, I usually don't get too aggravated by it. Now..if it turns into a 3v1 by merit of a a blue or whatever, and they STILL refuse to chase or push....that's when it starts to irk me. Because without SOME sort of cover or mob support in a 3v1, my chances of pulling out a victory go WAAAAAY down. Encountering a few mobs in a 3v1 situation isn't nearly as dangerous at that point, and only tips the scales very slightly in my direction...gives me a second or two of breathing room....and when they won't even risk that....I could see how that might be something that grinds your gears a bit.
I mostly wanted to highlight that I'm cool with whatever but my personal issue is just with the infinite stalls because it slows everything down. Obviously there are tons of ways to deal with it but I want to encourage people to maybe do something stupid for the sake of interaction. I run headfirst into ganks all the time just to make something happen (I usually pay the price) but I want people to embrace the chaos because the risk is so fundamentally low.
@@emotionaljonxvx I feel you. It would definitely make for more interesting invasions! People really do put an unrealistic amount of investment in staying alive in these situations...as if a death is the end of the world. I was just mostly musing on the fact that what 1 person finds to be peak grief, another person isn't bothered by in the slightest...and how that usually seems to be the case. Similar to the "if you use X weapon, you are the literal devil," where X changes from person to person. It's just all pretty fascinating....I used to deeply care about other people's opinions of me in these games...but that REALLY starts to hamper how you play, and how you enjoy the game.
It's a hard mental hurdle to overcome for a lot of people and I think hosts are the most unaware of their effect on the tone of invasions. I get a lot of people who claim essentially self-defense or castle law type arguments that no matter what, they have the right to do whatever they want and invaders are always in the wrong. It's a really damaging mentality that can escalate things way too much.
Great video brother!! I have a requests if you are ever up to it. Could you possibly do a video on the history of the blue phantoms from all the games? I feel like the blues never get the credit they deserve they are only looked at as punching bags and I feel like they deserve more credit than they get! Thank you for all your videos I appreciate all your information and opinions!
Yeah, I loved being a blue in previous games and I wish it was a lot better in Elden Ring. Love the idea of justice avengers and really wish they got more focus. Thanks for the suggestion!
Blues used to be interesting in ds1 but unfortunately the way they have been changed over time is the main reason why they are more or less the "laughing stock" of the pvp community. In ds3 you at least got some cool rewards for playing as a blue but in my personal experience you almost never get summoned as a blue and if it happens the fight is often already over or you get used as cannon fodder by a gank. In elden ring those things got even worse, because now you also get no real reward, bad spawns and no teleport finger and you are almost always used asganker replacement. It would be a great video but the downgrades blues recieved over time are probably the worst in the entire multiplayer...
This is exactly why i miss covenants. Yeah it sucked having things locked behind pvp or hours upon hours of grinding offline. But at least it gave you a reason to do pvp. The only thing elden ring pvp gives you is rune arcs, which are good and all. But sometimes just isnt worth it for the time it takes. (The latency in souls games is so bad. Learned that from the youtuber onlywaifu) so hopefully they either add them in dlc. Or at lesst in the next souls game they make
10:40 I can relate to this on a spiritual level, if I end up in a PvP scenario that is obnoxious enough then I end up becoming a griefer myself. The only difference is I just give them the chainsaw because I don’t like wasting my time but I’m too petty to just sever out. On an unrelated note I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on max level players.
I think playing at max level is cool if you wanna play in the max level bracket, but as an overleveled summon it's pretty silly that it works as well as it does. I don't have a lot of first-hand experience, but as far as I can tell it kind of ruins the incentives of build-making.
Your videos are so well thought out. And yeah I do the same thing against cheesy gankers. I join a group of three degenerates trying to ruin invaders times? Well I’m just going to run across the map and afk, waste my time I’ll waste yours. But also your points are so true, elden ring has the worst of the worst when it comes to toxicity. At first I thought it was because of all the new souls fans, but now I realize it’s because of the way that FromSoft integrated pvp into this game. I miss dark souls 3, and honestly after this dlc drops I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of souls pvp enjoyers go back to ds3
It is a real struggle. I really want to be the bigger person but sometimes I'm just so irritated that I can't help it. Doesn't help that Elden Ring has made sure no matter what you're doing, it's going to take forever.
@@emotionaljonxvx yeah, it’s sort of crazy to think how well the souls series integrated the multiplayer into the games all the way back to demons souls. You could tell those games were designed with the multiplayer components in consideration the entire time. If you think about it, unless you play offline, the souls games are entirely multiplayer games. There is no single player, there are just specific ways you can chose to engage with it or not. But I’m sure almost everyone who wasn’t playing offline in dark souls 1,2, or 3 got invaded at least one time in their first playthroughs of the game and I bet that experience stood out to them during their playthrough. In the same light I’m sure a lot of players during their first playthrough were struggling though a level always fearful of every turn or getting destroyed by some boss only to run up on a white summon sign which they interacted with and had a savior come into their world and help them progress through an area they couldn’t do on their own. That just doesn’t happen in elden ring and it’s pretty sad because it was always the multiplayer interaction of the souls games that made the series stick with me, more so than the bosses or the level design. Unfortunate that most of the new souls fans will never get to experience this, because it’s not in elden ring and the old games are dead, and instead their idea of multiplayer is only gank squads, super twinks, and people running the most “meta” stuff all the time.
I recently got invaded at RL9 while trying to get some armor and som spare Ashes of War from a friend, and some mats to trade off to another Character. We got invaded by someone with all their talismans, fully expanded weapon set up, Rot pots, and powerful strategies. I know I can fight, but the situation was stupid- there was no fighting them. There was no fighting that person at this level with next to no gear... How was he set up like a level 150 at level 9? I dunno. But it put a bad taste in my mouth knowing some players do this deliberately- using Rot Pots at the literal earliest level, in limgrave, at the church.
Just a regular hypertwink who has probably fought far worse than you in half his invasions or just wants easy kills. It's a balancing issue for a lot of it but it definitely can leave a sour taste when it feels like there's nothing you can do. If you're at all inclined, try invading at low level and see how you find the balance. I've recently made a Limgrave-only gear low level and it's been fun but it has its challenges, especially when you run up against groups who are not using starting gear. Also, if you ever want to drop trade items, just use the red summon sign. It'll occupy the invasion slot and you can trade uninterrupted.
It can be fun in every game, as each has its own little nuances. Elden Ring just suffers from the stiflingly few ways to participate, causing it to get repetitive and predictable in a lot of not so great ways.
Great video! I really agree with you on all of these points. Fantastic video, you said what I’ve been thinking of for months now. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head! I think that we can definitely just be better community as a whole, but I also think this sentiment will fall on ALOT of deaf ears. I’ve been spending alot of time on forums tryna promote the redman name in a positive light. But the amount of people who are so absolutely against invasions or any souls pvp is really disheartening. AND it’s very easy to let yourself get sucked into the toxicity, I’ve been there myself and it ruined the game abit for me. But I’m being better now. It’s just that once you get a taste for the horrible attitudes people have, you see it everywhere and it’s really a vicious cycle! I don’t think it’s going to be an easy task, I think it’s possible but there’s enough bad apples that I’m not sure it’s realistic that this attitude toward pvp will ever change. At least not with Eden ring, unless something changes in future patches or the dlc. I see so many clips of low level twinks one shoting unsuspecting hosts with lightning pots, or spark aromatics that I really don’t blame the pve community for hating us. This will never change though, there will always be this type of invader. Sadly. Again great video, it was a breath of fresh air for me! ❤
I play ER with tongue on because I like the challenge even though I'm not skilled enough to deal with invaders most of the time, but I'm not doing this for the invaders' sake, but myself. I also have friends that abhor PvP and just want to play PvE with other friends, and have zero interest in dealing with the PvP aspect. They will make a point of closing the game because they have a set amount of time allocated to gaming and PvP is a waste of time in their eyes. I 100% support their decision, and would still do so if they were strangers. To try to call people out for not engaging with you is pathetic at best, and childish at most. The very idea that other players are supposed to engage with you in the first place is laughable. And before "but ER should let me having my PvP fun the *correct* way", ER devs chose it to be mainly PvE, and the design choices show that. Go to the arena if you want engaging and mutually-agreed-upon PvP, or sever out when you invade "griefers" like any sane person would. They aren't wasting your time, you are wasting it on your own.
The arena obviously isn't a substitute for invasions but I'm sure you know that. I don't mean to come across as someone demanding people do things my way, I just want to encourage people to play the game. I want more interactions and for people to not be apprehensive about invasions. I'm honestly cool with whatever people want to do, but I still want people to engage rather than try to stall indefinitely. It's not like its a major issue, just a personal gripe that doesn't mean too much. Don't super appreciate being called pathetic though, sort of uncalled for. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's time or dictate what they can or can't do. Just want to encourage people to do things in a meaningful way.
If it helps, I'm not trying to call you pathetic, but I am calling the action itself pathetic. Hopefully knowing the difference between the two helps soften the blow. Anyway, the only place where both parties are in agreement that PvP is going to happen is in the arena, which is the only reason why it's being mentioned. You did label those who stall or don't engage in an invasion a 'griefer', but by their very nature, invasions are invasive. You are, in fact, griefing someone's game by invading most of the time, so non-ganking players' reactions will vary. Some will roll with the punches, others will become apathetic in order to move on with their PvE gameplay, and then a few others will stall and make your invasion hell in retaliation. So, what do we do with griefers? Nothing, we move on.
I think griefing implies intent. If your goal is to make them not have fun that's griefing. Your goal is more or less to make them quit and become angry or sad. Invading in NOT griefing. Ganking is not griefing. Twinking is not griefing. Inherently. Though any of it can be. Lots of invaders, myself included want to have fun.
-_- 00:32 this sounds exactly like me except I dont do it for pleasure other then beyond to showcase style and combos not grief tho (I got hate mail for doing like 8 hit combos and they called them cheap and underhanded because in their definition souls games are not about using magic or ashes of war to create a precedent 🤷🏾♂️) Damn bro you got me sounding like a super villain 😂
2:22 No, it just makes the player an asshole. It's technically "legit" but does not mean it's not any less of a dickhead move. Which is the issue. Not to be the devil's advocate right now, but I'm obligated to point out one advantage the invader has over hosts in this particular scenario: If you're facing a bunch of braindead griefers that just want to waste your time, unlike the host that is FORCED to fight you or die, as an invader, you can always just abandon the invasion and leave the host world using the Finger Severer. If the host and co dont respect your time, you have the option to simply not take the abuse at all, unlike the ones you invade. Because you're the one holding them hostage. Run away and live to invade someone else. If you dont want to leave said invasion because some self percieved challenge or because it would hurt your pride, then that would be another matter.
Fair enough point, the host is stuck with the invader assuming they don't know how to quit out of the application or wouldn't want to. It's completely reasonable to say that only invaders have a mechanic to leave the world willingly, even if the host can force the invader out by progressing, they don't have an item that expels invaders which allows invaders to dictate how long they are present. That said, I do think that is core to the functionality of an invasion, whereas a host not progressing the level because an invader is present sort of turns assumed goals into mere suggestions and allows or even encourages a host to play as little as possible. There are a lot of angles to the whole thing to be sure. I just find myself wishing there was more incentive for everyone to be more engaged with invasions.
@@emotionaljonxvx >Invasion makes host play as little as possible Why would they? Think about it, why would the host and co fight the overworld boss when there's an invader hiding under the skirt of an Erdtree Avatar, or when the invader is (metaphorically speaking) just sitting on top of Caelid's bridge dragon head. Or when there's an invader perched at some high ground or cliff, shooting great arrows, rot pots or slinging magics when the host and co are merely trying to advance towards the boss fog gate, are you surprised then when the invadees decide to 'Nope' and find a comfy spot to hunker down? Unless you are invading in an open empty area, like the frozen lake, they have no obligation to engage you in a disadvantageous position, which it sounds what you want. I will remind you, that all of that happens because YOU invade in the first place, all these scummy, honourless tactics are merely a response towards the aggressor. Not justifying it, just stating how it is.
I’m really really trying to enjoy Elden Ring PvP. Colosseums are fun and reliable for duels, but lack the dynamic crazy situations that can happen in invasions. Invasions can be super fun, but it’s just that 90% of the time it’s garbage gankers and griefers. I tried having that positive attitude where I just accept the game for how it is, but damn after the 50th time getting blended it just makes u realize you’re not playing a very balanced or fun multiplayer game. Even low level invasions, like lvl 30 low, aren’t safe bc over half the time it’s some guy with his buddy who is level 300 and given him late game gear. Idk man Elden Ring PvP makes me kinda sad, I miss DS3, I really wish they had put more into it.
I hear you and I feel you. It's not great a lot of the time and it can be hard to want to do it. If I can give you some advice that has kept me engaged whenever I'm feeling dejected; Focus on your build and your playstyle. If you're getting thrashed, try making a character that's as interesting to you as possible. And if that isn't working, if you're getting stomped non-stop, try making an absolute cheese build that breaks everything. Watch some PVP youtubers who regularly gank-spank that have a style you like and see what you can emulate. Invasions are heavily stacked against the invader and Elden Ring has removed every in-game incentive to participate, so sometimes your best bet is to do something you might normally find a little "excessive" but that lets you get some overdue wins and helps familiarize you with the more OP mechanics. Also, straight up, try invading at level 10 - 20 with a +3/+1 - +5/+2 weapon. It's about as casual as invasions get and can help switch things up. You don't even need an OP build because like half the time it's just a fresh group genuinely going through the game. Reminds me of invasions of times past and is a good way to actually have fun.
Honestly I don't think the multiplayer mechanics are even aged. They're just bad, and have always been bad in one way or another, when they could easily be good. I think From Software means for the mechanics to suck, because they want players to feel a certain way about each other - angry. In the lore, hosts/phantoms and invaders do not get along, and there is always malice towards each other party. That's a fine thing to turn into mechanics, but it does suck that we're just people trying to enjoy a thing, and the mechanics prevent that. But more than that, I believe that the problem is From Software's intent with Elden Ring, and other Soulsborne games. It is more obvious with Elden Ring than with any other Soulsborne game before, that they care the least about the gameplay, and more about the story, the aesthetic, the sound design, the feeling that a player will get while playing. And really, that's a fine way to design a game, but at that point, the game could've just as easily been a non-interactive medium like a film or a manga. If they want to continue this path, that's fine, but if they want to make the game part more enjoyable, and more engaging, and as a result have more longevity, then they should either strip away multiplayer like with Sekiro, or develop it as part of the primary focus, just like was the intention with Demon's Souls. But then again, they have no incentive to do that when these games sell like hotcakes despite any and all flaws; and plus, they seem to want to develop Armored Core games more than Soulsborne games, if we go by the quality of every aspect of AC6.
This video makes me ponder more that I haven't run into dragon communion afk players more, maybe they just don't know. Maybe I shouldn't have posted this.
Yeah, it's level 10 with +3/+1 upgrades. Need the soreseal and starscourge talismans with the mask and 1 point in Strength to wield the cleavers (23 STR) in one hand, rest of the points went into Vigor. Flaming strike or any other fire ash of war just to fit the Omenkiller theme.
@@user-oi5jo1cd4m Wretch if you wanna be level 10 for the most levels in Vigor, but you can choose others if you go higher level. I'd recommend using a calculator to pick the best one for whatever range you go for.
EmoJ! Do you have any ideas how they could actually redesign the invasion system to incentivize the kind of behavior you prefer? As much as I wish we lived in a world where we all treat each other with the respect and dignity we wish to be treated with... I can't help but feel that there is some value in the freedom the invasion system gives us to misbehave... we get to gaze into each other's Dark Souls.
I think there's lots of little things that are going to all be context-dependent. I think the presence of an invader could easily impact other aspects of the game, both by increasing mob aggression and possibly bringing in more invaders or the like as time goes on, encouraging a host to seek out and destroy an invader or progress the level more quickly. It would need to be balanced in reverse, where the invader would have to have some time-sensitive mechanic, maybe a DoT at distance like a Battle Royale fog or something to make sure their best option is to attack. But hat's just an idea off the top. I think a big part of the problem comes from there being no dynamic shift once an invasion happens. If the invader can't easily pressure you because you're not progressing the level, you have all the incentive to just hang and wait them out. The only counter is time waste but that just doesn't cut it. So I'd say anything that creates urgency and promotes active engagement would be worth considering.
@@emotionaljonxvx interesting, very cool ideas. Love the vids and your approach. Can't wait to see your channel blossom even more. I think one of the simplest solutions to alleviate the gank/grief problem would be a defacto taunters tongue plus an extra invader slot when a host has 2 phantoms summoned. But i'm def badredman biased lol
@@TheAzul_Indigo I'd take it in a heartbeat! I've pitched it before where I'd be cool with even giving up healing flasks to summon more invaders. Anything to get the battle bigger and more chaotic
11:39 ngl I do this shit anytime I see a 3v1 gank or grace "duels". I dont even mind losing Im just not going to let them have the satisfaction of two shotting invaders and especially me but if it's honest coopers in the shittiest cave on the planet I'll play it out 20 times out of ten because that's what invasions are to me at least
To be fair, when I’m invading someone else and they may or may not want me present, I don’t consider anything they do “griefing.” There’s pettiness for sure hahaha. But I wouldn’t call it griefing at all. Additionally invaders often have weird advantages that cooping pve players don’t have and the pve players have the advantage of playing with cooperators. Even ganking doesn’t feel like griefing to me. It feels stupid and petty and immature, but such is the nature of invasions. You don’t know what’s on the other side of that. Just kill it. It might be an insurmountable situation or it might be a poor pve player with their sad friends that you just crush. The only thing here I think we agree on is players farming invaders whilst AFK and hiding in an inaccessible place to invaders. I appreciate your thoughtfulness posting this video but honestly it comes off as hypocritical and whingey when you surrender any responsibility on your own end and just blame Elden ring’s design. Especially when you engage in the same petty tactics you are christening “griefing,” it’s shameful at best. However, your closing statement of sportsmanship and mutuality is commendable. I agree with that, too. Skilfulness inspiring a skilful response and finesse in the face of power washing. 👍
Yeah, I just wanted to highlight that any real griefing (beyond outright cheating) is central to game design and a lack of incentive to engage and I'm actively criticizing myself for sinking to lesser tactics. I don't mean to claim people need to play a certain way, just wanted to say that I take great frustration with the lack of incentives to engage in PVP and whenever people (on any side) abuse that system that's where it really gets to me the most. Maybe calling it griefing isn't exactly right, but that's sort of my point. The only things that go to far in my mind, or more specifically the things I hate, are things you're still allowed to do and they're not even that crazy. They just drain people's energy and time and discourage people from playing. Sorry if it comes off like I have an expectation for other people I want met. I just wanted to vent through analysis around the conversation of griefing.
@@emotionaljonxvx No reason to apologise. I kind of know what you mean. But I think when you are criticising the way people play, which discourages most people from engaging, but you also do that thing that you are criticising, it just takes the wind out of the sails of your argument. Without that aspect to your analysis, I fully agree with it. I run into the same frustrations. But instead of wasting my time or engaging with it, I try to find a way to have fun and if I am not enjoying myself or bringing fun to the people I invade, even if I can tell they're just PVEers and I'm terrorising them, it's enough to prompt me to pull back on the reigns and bow to them, rattle my weapon at them and sever. I'm not here to ruin anyone's day. If I can't be, have and bring a fun time, I just sever. I think Miyazaki said specifically that he meant for invasions to be a fun, challenging and dynamic way to keep players on their toes. To give them a new and interesting challenge that is unique to their specific experience. It is hard to remove the human shitposting aspect from that intent. Some people bow and play with pure honour. Other people are absolute trolls and bring all the cheese and all the hacks with a downloaded save acc that has infinite pots etc... But regardless of the choices players make, the intent of Miyazaki remains the same. I think if what you're addressing is that human element, then what you said at the end of your video is chef's kiss and I agree with it completely. Playing with others the way you want others to play with you. Engaging with people in a way that brings fun and maybe adds to their experience without just being an additional frustration. But that is a choice we make as you explained. It's just, why criticise these people doing the shitposting if you get irritated at feed into that culture within the invasion community as well? You gotta be the change you wanna see, bro. Spearhead the ethical, fun packing invader. It's what I try to do. Same as when I play a blue. If I see shitposting happening, I sever or don't engage and make sure I downpoint and might even work with the red to bring sweet justice to the shitposter.
Just quit out, block them, fight someone else, do something else entirely perhaps even unrelated to the game. There's no point in wasting your time with griefers. Years later you won't be looking back at yourself and saying "yeah, I made a good decision". You'll instead think "damn, I could've had way more fun doing other things. Why was I so dumb?"
You know makes this game for me so shit? the PVP, it is garbage and I might sounds crazy for some but this game has the WORST PvP ever (I do not count demon souls here) I prefer DS1 PvP to this unfair shit show. I played more than enough to understand how damn unbalanced the PvP/Invasions are in this game. It is always a damn 3 vs 1 or if you are lucky a 3 vs 2. Why not 3 vs 3? Why does Fromsoft have to ruin the online mode so damn much. The only reason why DS3 survived so long it thanks to a great PvE AND PvP experience, yes it had it flaws but it was still fun. Imagine DS3 without all the stupid glitching + some buffs and nerfs on certain weapons, that game would be unmatched when it comes to PvP. But what bothers me more than anything else are these people who clear the entire area for a 3 vs1 scenario and think they are hot shit in the game, I usually just leave the world whenever I see a world "empty" Also, I might sound like a salt lord with this message but the things is that Elden Ring HAS so much potential but the devs just got their cash and now they ignore the PvP fully, the next patch might be even the last patch lol and tell me what you like but this game is already dead. The DLC brings back some people again and once people are done with the DLC, the numbers will decrease like crazy since there is nothing to do, nobody wants to run in an empty world 24/7 and not everybody enjoys the PvP in this game. Rant over..
Hey buddy, you're preaching to the choir. My whole channel is basically me venting organized frustrations about how good this game should be and where it's consistently missing the mark. The pain is very real.
@@emotionaljonxvx tormented knight DCIIX king bu myself mr nobody and a select group of other creators are waiting to say hello and have long discussions about elden ring
I’m loving your vids EJ. I think you bring a rational approach to the fun side of PvP. We may have to eventually just organize in discord and enjoy PvP with other cool red men. Keep it up. Try and get in touch with Ziostorm for a collab on the state of PvP going into SotE.
algo tenia ds2 que a pesar de que si no sabias nada de optimizacion de daño o defensa, te podias defender en pvp si tenias una buena estrategia y la ejecutabas sin errores.
Invaders are justified,hosts have overleved summons,more heals and are probably even at a higher level than the invaders. Rot?you use flame cleanse me. You don’t have anything for that?play the game and kill the invader. Invaders will use guerilla tactics bc we are outnumbered literally and figuratively. ggs.
@@emotionaljonxvx a este punto los otros dark souls tienen mas población debido a todos los problemas de elden ring yo juego dark souls 3 desde que salio y nunca vi que disminuyera la poblacion al contrario con elden ring trajo mas jugadores a dark souls 3 de los que habia antes 😌
I'd say that invasions on their own can be reasonably considered griefing. However, here's the difference: Gankers are griefers without skill. Invaders are griefers with style.
if you don’t want to get invaded turn off your wifi. The system is optional. you don’t need phantoms to play the game. if you want them you are opting into invasions. that’s the game, it was built that way. if you don’t like it, then you don’t have to play 🤡
i will never feel pity for an invader, like... nobody invited you, the game is already challenging, people are trying to get help from kind strangers or play with their friends, there are fight clubs and coliseums for you to enjoy pvp, but invading a player whos build is made for pve is just cheap and coward, gankers and blue hunters exist only as a bitter medicine for an awful illness running in the unattended mingle player that is elden ring, most invaders i have met in early game are just exploiting rot and poison, and the ones encountered in late game are all using the same strategy: push with dual cross bladed spears, run away when they get their ass handed to them by a 700 hp mage, running away hidding behind the enemy mobs, heal, change to claws with endure to profit from a broken dps while having the poise of laser golem, and if that isnt cheap enough they will just use the electric tornado ash of war.
@@deathknight1239 there it is, haha very original "git gud scrub" blah blah blah, "sound like a skill issue to me pilot"... go sit on a summoning statue, that will get you good.
@jesusvera7941 if you want a single player game turn off your wifi buddy, nobody is forcing you to engage in a multi-player system that has parts you don't enjoy. So yes either get gud or stop playing online but either way quit complaining because you doing this to yourself
I get these sorts of comments all the time and I do have a video addressing the Colosseum issues. Long/short of it, the arenas don't really accomplish the same thing. Invading is a very unique mechanic that has uneven PVP and that's part of the appeal. I just would like to see the game do a better job facilitating the mechanics rather than not giving people incentives to engage. But if you're just trying to take a dig at me, that's cool too.
I mean.... PvP DOES suck for a majority of players. It's one reason why the "seamless co-op" mod exists. Not many people want to subject themselves to a laggy unbalanced PvP. If I wanted to play PvP. I'll play another game where it FEELS good. PvP in this game has poor feedback because I either hit the foe, but the animations didn't connect. Or, I wiff despite the weapon connecting. Frankly... I'll just be one of those many commentors who wouldn't care if Invasions, or PvP in this series never came back. I've had more bad experiences with it than good.
I hear you, I feel you. Latency and imbalance make for bad PVP on so many fronts. I just want to tell you that even though it can suck, and suck hard, and that Elden Ring has made as many bad adjustments as it has good, that there is something special about it. There are things that make the PVP worthwhile and there is a reason so many people love it, despite all the jank. Maybe one day FromSoft will fix it all and maybe one day you'll fall in love with it. All I can do is encourage you to keep an open mind about the possibilities.
The latency issues are mostly on PC On console it’s much more bearable you just have to deal with dropped inputs which are more common on console That being said people look at this game the wrong way It’s a single player game with transient coop Not a coop drop in drop out type game. The mod is cool but it just shows the bigger issue, that the game can support 6 players in the open world but they chose not to include it.
Dude, one of the weirdest copes I've seen in the PvP community was the dismissal that seamless removes the invasion mechanic and people love that. Some of the most prolific invaders saying stuff to the effect of "nah, seamless is good cuz stability and stuff, cuz it's a hassle" as if they've ever organically co-oped from Limgrave to Radagon and know what playing like that for hours on end even feels like is mind-bogging to me - most of these players are not even on PC lol I don't know what to call that if not cope. The idea seamless would liberalize co-op but allow invaders to "disturb" that balance is just... it's invader copium lol
Yeah PC lat is just horrible, it's why I stopped pvping. Plus you have the people with garbage PCs who only update at like 20fps microskipping all over the place (at least that's what I assume is happening). I really like the pvp but EAC lat and no ping filter absolutely ruin it and I'm not about to support S*ny, one of the most evil corps in gaming, by buying a ps5.
@@kimlee6643 As someone who likes invasions and invading, I 100% agree with you. Tying invasions to coop in ER was such a mind-bogglingly stupid move, and it's even more mind-boggling that there has been zero consideration to adjust or change it.
Make no mistake: invading, at least in Elden Ring, is straight up griefing. First of all, there are no covenants like in previous souls games, which means there are zero reasons to actually invade already. For the excuse of “iTs aBoUt tHe rEwArDs,” there is literally no point in invading over being a cooperator if it’s about what you gain. Not only do you get the exact same rune arc and finger remedy, you also get significantly more runes than you do invading since you get a percentage of the boss’s runes. So already toxic invading losers are down an excuse. If it’s about “the pvp experience” or whatever, they literally added the colosseum for that exact reason. And if you’re so petty to say “there’s no point in pvp without rewards,” then literally use the duelists finger. You get to kill people without griefing someone else’s world, AND you get the measly rewards that are oh so necessary for the experience. So just know that there’s no excuse you toxic losers can use for invading since there are both other ways to pvp and earn the rewards from multiplayer. Please just admit you’re a toxic loser who hasn’t touched grass in a decade if you invade.
Just because someone wants to play the role of antagonist, doesn’t make them a bad person. It’s the same as acting the villain in a performance. Also, if you hate invaders so much, just win.
Invading is so lame. It's for people who don't have friends & want to ruin the fun of other ppl. The presence of Duels and the Colosseum are proof that invasion is pathetic. Almost all the time co-op is to help a low level friend. Why are they allowing losers to enter my game. My theory: FromSoft is aware that the average player of their games is an entitled strength player who scoofs at anything fun like magic or summons. Invasions are a way for those bitter try hards to spread their misery. Multiple ppl I've tried to get into the game, have dropped the game because of invaders. I will waste all day at the grace bc your bitterness will not dictate how I enjoy my game.
@@FighTThePower. Nah, man. You don't understand he can't accept invasions as an actual mechanic meant to balance the fact that you can steamroll the PVE with 2 or 3 players which can be a higher level completely invalidating any actual challenge the game tries to offer.
Invasion is the game way to balance the difficulty, you forget souls game don't want to be treated as an easy game. Proof of this? You get invaded only when you have at least 1 yellow summon. You will grow out of this phase soon 🙏
this hits weird given just last night some hacker invaded me in ds2 and almost bricked my save by injecting my inventory with 100+ +15 bleed daggers (invalid item). Thankfully i found out how to fix it with cheat engine in offline mode, but when I hear "griefing" that's the sort of behavior I expect. Malicious, parasitic, and only for the purpose of making other players suffer, with no gain to yourself. With your description, personally (typically as a host since I play co-op often), when someone is playing in such an unsporting manner, I also am unsporting: I force close the game. I deprive them the opportunity. A minute of my life re-booting the game to avoid someone whose only goal is to make their engagement with me as much of a tedious and unsatisfying chore as possible? I think that's a valid response. Alternatively, I test their patience. My buddy and I like to joke that no invader is more patient than we are: we'll camp out somewhere that's extremely safe from the griefer's tactics, and wait until they approach us. I'll be tabbed out, on twitter or ordering food or watching a youtube video. As best I can, I'll force the invader to engage us on our terms, or not engage us at all. We'll do this with invaders who grief, or invaders who clearly will run away and only fight us alongside challenging PvE they can take advantage of - if all they want to do is take advantage of the PvE, then we'll do the opposite; take advantage of the lack thereof.
Just got to the part where you're describing exactly that, and I disagree with your characterization personally. We dont sit behind a wall of spells and spam, we just wait. We don't typically have some "silver bullet" idea of what to do when you push us, we just want to fight you here. We don't have much in the way of a plan against invaders, nor do we have builds twinked out to grief invaders. We just decide where we want to fight, and let you decide if you want to take part in that. In that sense, it's us waiting for you, and you who is wasting our time. You can always make the first move, and we want you to, because we want to fight you. We just don't want to fight on your terms. I've waited a good 25 minutes for invaders to make a move. I'm sure I'll end up waiting longer in the future.
To be clear, I don't think all hosts who don't want to rush into enemies are always going to be griefers, just that staying where they are most safe and most advantaged and the least engaged with the level is a tactic that I think is a common form of griefing. Even then, I think by framing invaders as griefers for trying to get you to fight them in the level is maybe a little off-base, as it implies a symmetry to the dynamic that I personally don't see. Either way, cheaters are a bad thing in pretty much any game, but I would otherwise encourage you to maybe try engaging with invasions in a less reserved or indirect fashion. Obviously, play however you want, but it can be a good time for everyone whereas I can't imagine not playing the game necessarily qualifies. And I should know as I have done all the same things. For me, it's just not how I want the game to function and I'm trying to be better about my more negative or reductive impulses.
![MISSING: SLIM SHADY [Expanded Mourner’s Edition Trailer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xh8qgHrOO1g/mqdefault.jpg)
Im not chainsawing because im greifing, im chainsawing because im grieving
You have some of the best commentary i have seen, its no wonder why you’re growing so fast.
The way I see it, as an invader, we have three options to combat griefers:
1) Sever out. If you value your time, just move on and block 'em on Steam or PS or whatever. The healthy, normal person option.
2) Play along. Treat it like a normal invasion and take the fight to the host, even if they're using underhanded tactics. For players who like a challenge. Most gankers are bad at the game anyways, so with a little luck and some patience you can win eventually.
3) Reverse grief. If you don't value your time and are filled with spite as I am, just waste their time right back. I've spent many of my 26 years playing online games and the best and funniest way to deal with griefing is to fight fire with fire. Run when they try to fight you. Hide. Stand where they can't reach you, especially on ladders. Throw projectiles at them. Do all this until they give up and either are forced to engage meaningfully with the game or disconnect/fogwall you, in which case you win because they got mad and now you are griefing them, not the other way around. A Rorschach "I'm not trapped in here with you, etc." situation.
chainsaw time :)
So basically the deathblight death animation backstabbing loop. I love from software but that existing in this game still is a slap in the face
They're probably just saving all the best patches for the DLC.
Patch 1.20 - Fixed stuff (Glitches removed)
@@emotionaljonxvx (glitches removed) (there's new glitches we might fix in 2025)*
Fixed glitchs 😅. Doubtful
Nooooo don't get rid of that one 😢 it's the best way to punish 3 sleep ganking hosts and phantoms 😅
Griefers also have a fair bit of overlap with cheaters/exploiters. Another plague that, while done by far fewer people, leads to griefing and toxic behavior. And there is no real good option to deal with the cheaters due to a lack of a simple multiplayer feature: a report feature which comes naturally with some form of moderation. As for the people who are diehard pvp haters, I long ago in the distant past had my anti-pvp phase. And I want to offer what I can gleam from it to the conversation.
Basically, it began from being bad at PVP and getting penalized by losing a large sum of gear in another game. Practicing pvp with this foundational experience in mind equated to losing large amounts of in game wealth (AKA time) after. This left a grudge towards the game mode, which equates to the feelings of devastation and loss at the consequences of my younger selves actions in over-estimating my own ability to perform in pvp. And some people love carrying grudges. Mine was sustained for a good while because due to being bad at pvp (due to no practice). Any cherry-picked evidence of observed toxicity, griefing, ganking, etc led to the grudge feeling justified and more valid. To feel like a victim and to feel the grudge is justified because "people who do pvp must all be scummy bullies" due to needing that grudge to get valid. All from...a rather petty case of younger me making mistakes and paying for it in loot. PvP became a monolith - it didn't matter where it was, it was always the "same."
The funny thing about this phase is there is a catch. At the edges of my mind, where I could deny it and push it aside passing thoughts. "Boy, that pvp looks like it would be fun!" - but so powerful and so great was the need to validity those underlying foundational feelings of losing a buncha gear to a pvp'er, that the grudge meant those thoughts of pvp being anything but toxic sludge had to be denied. Pushed aside, and cast out. Which, for some, leads to doubling down. Or seeing anyone who says other as an enemy to be defeated.
PvP thus in any game doesn't really start from a clean table. Even if the community would do its part and keeps it clean, it will likely always come with such baggage. People got beat in another game in another decade, lost gear, and declare the game mode as evil due to having feelings of distress and even a bit of sorrow at losing all their efforts over a personal miscalculation and lack of skill due to no prior practice. It's thus a tainted well scenario. And such comes with the people who hold an almost Pavlovian response to pvp doing their darnest to combat "evil pvp" by keeping the well full of as vile poison as possible. Usually these foundational emotions and experiences do come at a young age, after all. And few have someone to talk to who will take them serious about them. They are valid emotions, that needed dealing with and processing for said alarmed children. Yet due to being at a young development point, general internet culture/RL behaviours dissing on emotions, lack of emotional intelligence or skill sets to handle them such things can in time become an automatic Pavlovian response. Where PvP = Bad, evil, misery, suffering, feeling inferior and bad, not fun.
Ask a person who does not like pvp, and you will usually get "I just don't." Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect, though, there is far more to it than that, as I've learned to identify a disguised "I rather not talk about it" well enough. Because people still do not have good emotional intelligence skills, and don't want to likely tell a story they feel is embarrassing enough. Very few people like to openly talk about their failures, after all. Ergo, the conversation is lacking, due to the side that hates pvp like it's a plague upon this land being unable or unwilling to completely express the full picture. And even if they were able to, there is a legit and very valid probability of getting made fun or, mocked, or dissed for it. And thus we can't talk about these things, we can't fix these things, we can't figure our solutions or solve anything. We just have a factionalist mob mentality that likes pointing fingers at each other in a black vs white narrow mindset while trying to claim moral and intellectual superiority.
It's important to understand the roots of any topic or issue. "Little Jimmy" getting dunked on in another game, as it turns out, can have a dramatic impact on how their thoughts and feelings are shaped when they reach adulthood. A foundational experience dealt with alone has that kind of power.
Very good points all around! The baggage of gaming is only going to get heavier, so the better we can talk through these issues and actually understand them, the better off we'll be.
Thanks for sharing!
The premise here is pretty interesting. Because we're forced to admit "griefing" has no solid definition and relies on personal experience, every instance of attribution of said experience is a direct reflection of the game we're playing that comes through in parallel with player playing it, at the very least. The nuance here is extremely slippery. Just last week I was surprised watching a Sgt. Jager vid wherein he repeatedly said he had a problem with poison in ~rl30 invasions, which sounded borderline absurd to me. Because if that's a "problem", I do not know what to call a blood antspur invader then. My spectrum of the "acceptable" is different from his, of course, and I think that's the whole point here, or at least most of it. We can't even decide what's permissible, what the "rules" are.
On a more personal note, my "griefing" in this game probably peaked very recently while invading at rl175. I got ganked in a Limgrave cave by aoe overlords and did something I had never: I went to the cave and re-invaded nonstop, but severed just as the invulnerability window was timing out. Over 30min of this, over and over again, completely exhausted the trio, and eventually the host dissolved into chainsawing on spawn, which they thought would work (?) and then being already in the animation on spawn, which I guess they thought would work better (it didn't) - they never got another kill, and there was no else in there for them. Eventually, I broke them and they logged off the game. Within the first 5min I expected a block, but it somehow never happened, and so I went on and on giggling at the screen with every sever I did as they flailed at the invul window as if they didn't know for a fact it'd never work, but the frustration of not getting that guaranteed kill which was eternally on the horizon for them, now unreachable, clearly did something to their psyche.
What broke them? Me? The game? Themselves? I really don't know. But Jon's point is apt, I did trade my time and theirs, and what should've been an hour of some ER PvP turned into what I just described: griefing, a waste, nonsense... whatever anyone wants to call it. And I'll never get that time back - true as anything that's truly true.
Whole thing is fucked to be sure. There are no real rules and as much as that can be charming, it causes problems. I love it for what it is and hate it for what it isn't. I really just want to inspire the best in people wherever possible while staying as aware as possible that sometimes it's okay to be the worst.
I don't think you wasted your time, cause it gave you a sense of satisfaction by getting back at griefers on behalf of a collective you feel a part of.
You know that letting them be would have caused them to gank multiple other invaders over and over, so you gave em a taste.
Is it moral? Idk. Is it righteous? Maybe. But I wouldn't say you wasted your time by wasting theirs.
Whenever I encounter ganksquads just sitting out in the open world/ grace camping just waiting for an invader to torture I usually just mimic veil and go AFK and block them all. I feel some twisted sense of justice wasting their time and taking up the invader slot to save other reds from their abuse. These people are the sort that would cook ants with a magnifying glass when they were children.
Lol I started doing the same thing and just wait near enemies then jump them they get pissed off and sent me hate mail I love it
I do that too, I say “Oh, it’s time for a break!” And go stand on the elevator button at the upper floor of caria manor.
@@TheAzul_Indigo YO I be doing the same stuff lol
Not at all some of us just don't like invaders it's really that simple, the joy you feel wasting a group's times is just returned ten times over when you 3 man gank a person.
@@Whaletails pathetic you're useless without your phantoms
Great video! There's nothing worse than three gankers staying at the Site of Grace waiting for you to come in and accept your fate. Meanwhile, they won't come out and accept their fate if they have to fight a few birds. It gets to a stalemate, and all we can do is plan and wait. It's too bad we have these chickens that are 200 levels higher than us that either dragon breath us or cower in their little hole.
I've really been enjoying your videos man. You do a nice job of choosing interesting topics and hitting them from different angles.
You are easily among the most well spoken players within the PVP community I've seen so far, good luck in your channels growth
After I used PVP also invasion, I noticed that no one wants to play fair 1vs 1 anymore, instead they attack completely disrespectfully or start spamming right away, even if you are a friendly invasion person, the brutality of 3vs 1 is still very noticeable.. well and at DS3 I noticed that everyone was very friendly, which really shocked me, I even enjoyed losing because we both fought fairly without healing. and I feel that in Elden Ring there is a kind of hatred when the invasion comes to me or to them. but Nevertheless, there were moments in Elden Ring where I, as a team leader (Bloody Finger), got a bunch of players to use Mimic's Veil and we all ran around like a gang in Limggrave , that was nice ... or the one time I did led the host to a magic spell , he was overjoyed afterwards. So.. In the End there are also good moments as a Bloody Finger. ( in my perspective)
But yes, there are good PVP or invasion moments and there are bad ones... you just have to deal with it, but the most important thing is that you shouldn't lose your fun!
PS: Praise the Sun !
and May the sun enrich your days with warmth and happiness.
Its not just invasions, I see so many people in the arena instantly running to get a cheap attack while you are emoting, buffing or simply didnt realize the loading screen was over yet. I remember players having more etiquette for duels at least my ds3 pvp days, idk why now everyone just that obcessed over a quick cheap win.
Your commentary style definitely growing on me. Was not sure how to feel 6 minutes in, but the ideas you expressed was fascinating and now what I expected by the end. Liked, and subscribed.
I used to always play offline back in the day. Dark souls 1... Somehow seeing that "invaded" message terrified me. Somehow, when I played DS2, I dipped my toe on pvp (iron keep bridge). When I played DS3 for the first time, I did it with a work buddy. We finished every session with some pvp matches. Best out of 3. Today, I love being invaded when playing. It gets me pumped knowing that a dangerous enemy is lurking by. My point is... It is an acquired taste. But once you engage in it....
Well said. It really is the sort of thing that I get why people hate it at first. I feel you have to engage with it in a sincere fashion and even try it from the other side for it to click but once it does, dang is it sweet.
I'm in love with your videos. Thank you for spreading the good word. My journey to GIT GUD, began in DS3 as just a way to understand the game and to progress. And then it excitingly became to survive invader attacks as a solo host. The next step had me invading other players and how to beat the three man teams and the joy that it brought.
These days I find myself having the most fun as a solo host around or under level 60 with minimal armor and an uchigatana (zweihander in pocket) searching for fun areas to engage in fun fights with the taunters tongue on. I do have a very high win rate but the biggest win for me is when I'm involved in a back and forth battle that comes down to the very last hp and after one of us falls, maybe a fist is thrown in the air or maybe a bow is selected but either way im most elated when my opponent defeats me and I gave them my all. Because I know how the journey to become GUD it's not an easy one. And to some the journey to be GOOD is never realized. But in that moment I feel good for everyone involved.
Your youtube video eassys are very good. This channel seems promising. Reminds me of a more hinged saint riot.
If you want guidance on anything youtube related, just ask. I can also direct you to someone more experienced than me.
Very much appreciate the support, and any saint riot comparison is high praise! I've only been at it for a little under 2 months so I'm sure there's a ton of things about RUclips that are gonna throw me for a loop. So far, I've just been throwing out whatever comes to mind and what I find most interesting, though I've considered getting into the streaming side of things.
Side note, I really like that you call people bots.
My new favorite content creator. Cheers skeleton.
I think if we had covenants we could at least mitigate some of the problem, I think the reason griefing is such a big thing in elden ring is that there just isn't enough to do for a pvper compared to previous games which had around 3+ different pvp styles. In elden ring there is only the bare bones fundamental stuff like invading as a red or being a blue summon. Need more covenants that offer a unique multiplayer experience, like gravelord servant, belfry covenant, rat king covenant, dragon covenant, abyss covenant, blue sentinel/way of blue etc. Elden ring just has you either play red or blue, and if you play blue you're 9/10 times gonna be summoned to an AFK host. If you play red then you're just gonna fight gankers all the time. The game is IMO, starved for more multiplayer side content. Covenants at least allow us to switch off from a certain game mode if it gets too boring or too sweaty etc. I'll never understand why they took this aspect away from elden ring, because it is a system that lends itself to the vast open world so well, and yet they were like "hmm I think we will scrap it". I would like to add to this by saying that there are covenants in previous games that lend themselves very well to the griefing mindset, such as rat king or gravelord, and those kind of covenants being missing is why I think griefing is more pronounced. Sure it wouldn't filter them all out, but it would at least curb the effects on the general invasion pools.
I am constantly wishing for covenants and their functions to return. Even if it wouldn't reduce the total number of griefers or griefing scenarios, it would help to outweigh them with more meaningful engagements.
In my mind, multiplayer was just ported from Dark Souls 3 in it's most basic form, so anything that didn't need to be changed to fit the new game didn't even get re-added. They just focused elsewhere the whole time and when it came down to what to do with multiplayer, they mostly left it alone in the worst way.
@@emotionaljonxvx I couldn't agree more. It's a shame too because they have so much older yet meaningful content that could easily be retooled for elden ring.
I was so pissed ER didn't have covenants. I was late to the souls series so I've never engaged with the pvp, but I loved the concept of covenants. I was excited for ER pvp because I was finally going to be able to get in on the ground-floor of a souls-game pvp at launch and do cool covenant stuff. When I discovered there weren't covenants, I was so salty about it that I just played the whole game completely offline.
The worst part about it is now I actually know the lore and am super into it, know all the factions and stuff etc. - so when I play the game I just see all these missed opportunities where cool covenant stuff could have been incorporated.
It's a shame - it could have went so well with this game. Like imagine a "Frenzied Flame" or "Those Who Live In Death" covenant - you would be tasked with spreading madness/deathroot, other covenants would be tasked with stopping you - and depending on the madness/deathroot level, the world could change in minor ways, kind of like World Tendency from Demons Souls.
But no, now we just have this weird amalgamation of mechanics that don't quite make sense lore-wise and seem to be at odds with some of the games core design principles. Seeing the pvp in this state makes me perfectly content with not engaging with it.
the reason i quit ELDEN RING PvP is because of the damn assholes 3 man gank all toxic AOE builds dragon breaths while me just playing a banished knight theme sword and board. and i am instantly going back to DS3 and i can easily mow down every pveers with just a sword and board build even when they're spell spam.
Dragonbreath is one of the things where if they it were removed, I just wouldn't ask questions. The pain is very real.
Just play solo offline guys. Elden ring gave the Souls community a huge boost in numbers. Amongst the new faces are people that enjoy pve and co'op. People from genshin impact or the like. Elden ring is beautiful, huge world to explore and lots of dungeons. Get online with your buddy, enjoying the scenery. Then forced PvP against some random in obvious higher gear throwing scarlet rot. The game punishes online play. Treat it like skyrim and play it without internet.
From a community stand, if y'all wouldnt be invading low levels to dick around new people, people won't be trying to grief those low level invaders. But some of y'all are toxic about this, claiming getting help from a buddy is bad and you deserve to get invaded. Then complain in a 16min vid when this hostility is returned in kind.
For the game itself to fix this issue. Putting a level minimum on invasions is a start. The invasion mechanic is dated. People dont want to deal with others because of toxicity. I hate invading or being invaded. Its always the most obnoxious bs I've delt with from invaders, and i hate interrupting these bros who seem to be vibing in the lakes. The arena though? A place of agreement to PvP? I love that and spend hours doing just that with different builds. But forcing PvP on players trying to game with their friends isn't good. While trying to game with a buddy online i had to be at a super odd level and resorted to blocking everyone who invaded before we'd have some semblance of PvE co'op.
Not sure how many are in my boat, but I've given up on multiplayer and play solo. Arena if I'm feeling it, but at least I'm there cuz i want to be.
Tldr, dont hate the player hate the game, its about time fromsoft actually put some work in their pvp just like how they put work in their pve
If you are given the opportunity to grab a gun, and shoot a person, will you?
Same thing here. If you are given the opportunity to play in the most universally annoying way possible, will you?
As Jon implied, this is all about self awareness. You COULD be the problem, and make it worse. Or you could do your best, to not be problem, even while facing problematic people.
Will it change a griefers ways? probably not. Do they deserved being griefed back? Probably, griefing griefers is objectively, morally correct. Following the metaphor, it's like shooting down a killer. but, Is it necessary? in a virutal, fictional world? no, you could very well be, the better person, and still play fair.
It's up to us, to make our environment, a better place.
From Soft has created completely unique experiences, quite unlike anything else out there, and with top quality.
It's nice to not-be part of the problem. It's even nicer, to spread and share the love for something we ourselves love.
And nobody will love a painfully pointless experience.
Whether as friend or foe, it's good to keep online play enjoyable, for both parts.
While i very much agree with what you said about most of the BS mechanics in pvp/multiplayer being essentially Elden Rings/Fromsofts fault i think it's also important to talk about the things Griefers use that are not intended by the game, those being: glitches (for example backstabbing someone out of the deathblight animation for a infinite death loop), stat cheating (self explanatory) and worst of all, straight up hacking (for example crashing someones game with a giant explosion and a lot of particles).
I know that Fromsoft kinda invited those things by always taking very long to patch glitches and using easy anti cheat and i also know that it doesn't happen very often but those are still things that can genuinely ruin your game in much worse ways than anything "intended" and it also serves as a reminder that some people will always find ways to grief others, regardless of what us players or Fromsoft can do.
That is a very good point. I didn't go into cheating or glitching because that's a thing in every game and didn't specifically fit into what I wanted Elden Ring to address. Of course, they should be way more proactive and reactive with how they fix glitches or cheating or any of that but it's something where the game design or oversight or intention isn't always the reason.
I wanted to focus on how people play, or don't play, because the game has been set up to not encourage people to do anything in particular, which leaves the door open for people to waste as much time as possible and just generally frustrate the experience.
But yeah, glitching can be absolutely rotten in this series.
Very much appreciated the end section about finesse. My favorite way to lose or win is when it's by a specific decision that wasn't expected (like having a forward press ruined by a whip guy, or catching that whip guy with flaming strike)
What causes me the most grief is none other than stunlock mechanics that a health bar can't fix. I would rather be rotted early game than stunlocked by a rapid press AOW any day
Some of those guaranteed combos are so insane with damage output I just can't believe it. The amount of times where I'm fighting something and it's like "If that catches me, I die" and then they just spam it over and over and over and over because it's a press to win scenario is very frustrating. Not like anything is actually unstoppable but it makes for a very disengaging fight.
Say you don't know me or recognize my face
Say you don't care who goes to that kind of place
Knee deep in the hoopla, sinking in your fight
Too many runaways eating up the night
Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember?
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
About the colosseum, 3v3 spirit ashes etc, i would love to be in the chaos like that again, i only was able to find two matches at the release of the colosseums, and i was thinking, we should organize matches like this you know, set a time of the day so a lot of people would be active. I tried to find an elden ring discord with people who want to do colosseums group fight ordeals but i've been unlucky, think about it!
I used to organize matches with level brackets and all that fun stuff back in Dark Souls 3 and I'd love to do it again. I'll get a discord up and going hopefully soon but I'm really hoping we'll get a bit more to the arenas in the DLC.
@@emotionaljonxvx cool, i'm down for it when it's open
Somehing similar to Return to lothric but return to ashes lol
Last week I had a phantom sit down with his host at their screens for two and a half hours in weeping RL20 because I kept rolling out of his scarlet aeonia and dual nagis and tried to bait them into chasing me into PVE. Completely grieved. I stayed as a matter of principle after he started throwing dung and pointing down, but it sucked.
It happens all too often. Before Elden Ring released I was excited as the prospect of open world invasions but it has been a lot worse than I would have hoped. Smaller than ever battles in a big, empty field. It stands to reason it often sucks.
I think the main reason people do the whole "not progressing while an invader is present" thing is because this game gives them no reason to. In the previous games you usually needed to fight the enemies to actually progress through the level. In elden ring you just ride your horse past almost everything from boss to boss. Really, in elden ring, there is not level for the pvers to progress through. In previous games, you could wait at the bonfire for the invader, but even if that worked out and you killed the invader, you'd still have to fight all the level npcs afterwards. In elden ring after you kill the invader, you just walk past everything until you get to the boss, with few exceptions.
Very true. I think a lot about how the mobs in the game are unable to stop me from running past them in any meaningful way (save for the 1 in 10 chance they catch me on some bad geometry) and how that's always been interesting/funny/silly in previous entries. But in Elden Ring, with the mounted travel, it really feels like you're supposed to ignore combat if you want to progress at a reasonable pace.
@@emotionaljonxvx In Ds2, running past enemies isn't really possible due to a mix of enemies chasing you to hell and back and fog wall vulnerability. I hated it at first, but now I find myself wishing it made a comeback.
@@Sin_Essence I miss Dark Souls 2 in a lot of ways, even being fully aware of its flaws. Not perfect, but it had its charms and genuinely good ideas.
This is amazing commentary, keep it up! 🔥
As someone who does a lot of random co-op, I just Finger Sever out if I get summoned by someone camping around the grace/summoning pool waiting for some red to pop in to either instantly whallop or go on a 15 minute running simulator with. Not fun for anyone involved and a waste of multiple player's time, which not everyone has in abundance. That said I do relaize that invaders in normal multiplayer are frequently outnumbered (unless you count the PvE enemies since they can do some heavy lifting in invasions) but sometimes it seems like all they WANT to do is waste your time by spending twice as much time running away than ever engaging in combat. Like not even turn and burn tactics, just straight up booking it like it's a marathon, maybe to go occupy the last elevator in the zone so that you literally can't complete the level while they AFK and have a laugh. Just another time waste when the levels are already larger and take longer to get through than previous games when cooperating.
We all play games to have fun in our own ways but going out of your way to waste multiple people's time and usually being disrespectful after the fact? On either the Host or Invader side, Maidenless.
Watching all of this actually made me becom an ivader myself. I've always been a bit neglegant to the idea, but after thinking and giving it a few tries I figured out that, "huh, this is actually really fun".
I try to keep my stuff lore friendly since I like the overall vibe. It just seems cooler to be invaded by someone that looks to be from a specific part of the world or as someone you'd expect to see rather than a guy utilizing all of the cheap tactics for easy kills. This here is one of my first times ever bothering to make a long comment to something, but that's becuase I've just found a gem of a channel that I can give props too. Being able to see all the goods and wrongs about invading and admitting to the same mistakes shows he gets it and admitting that's it's bad is just... I don't know where I'm going with this. You get it. All I'm saying is that ivasions is overall a fun concept, and I'll do my best to have fun with it without making my opponents loathe their excistance.
So keep doing what you're doing man. You got my sub and I don't think I'll leave. And if you're wondering what kind of build I'm doing(just ranting really), I'm going with a Golden Order assassin like build. A person that is too scared to move on to a new order, so he invades new Tarnished to keep the same age, to keep what he sees as good. Anyways, that's enough of my ranting, and of course to my invader pals... Happy hunting.
Very much appreciated! Happy hunting to you as well
the very act of griefing caused a really big snowball affect that ruined pvp for alot of people
Hey Jon, been listening to your videos and glad to hear some similar thoughts on the game. Another point I feel that is, by enabling or even encouraging griefing, the game also simplified the games actions. The early days of playing dark souls feels like non-stop thrilling encounters with people coming in looking for different (but limited) interactions, while fighting seems to be the most complicated one, but people can still feel connected with fun competitive game or simply silly fights.
For Elden Ring, just as you talked about in this video, that kind of feeling is rare, as most encounters are players trying to have a easier time with the given toolset. Both hosts and invaders seems to be traumatized enough to develop a very unpleasant strategies to ensure their experience is "fair". And that's imo why it's draining to invade.
Then I figured if I attempt to de-escalate the situation, the encounters I have with player might be more chill and pleasant. I tried to play through the game hosting with dry fingers with no great-rune or summons, playing through the game using a strength build. The experience was fairly different, as I feel each and every invader "choose their actions" when I'm on the weaker side needing to deal with the mobs, some are chill, some take full advantages, some goofed arount. It feels instantly less mono, and I'm seeing real people actions that are fun. Anyway, the dlc made me quit the game for good regardless.
On the topic of poison/rot at low levels: rot definitely counts as griefing, but anybody can grab cure poison incant at round table hold if they have 10 faith and 1800 runes. So theoretically anybody past margit should definitely be capable of dealing with poison, and it’s just ill preparedness not to have it.
That is the ever-interesting challenge. If an invader uses something on you and you don't have a counter, I think it's very fair to say "Hey, you were unprepared and this is a learning opportunity."
Rot at early levels can be a problem with how inaccessible counters are early game, even if it just makes me think of the toxic blowpipers of Blighttown.
Yes, and I mean, the first enemy that can poison you is probably a land squirt in Agheel or the Miranda flowers at waypoint. That’s where you should learn the lesson. You have to travel to Caelid to find out about rot.
My solution would be to have a mechanic for invasions similar to hunters. If it's 3v1, you get a purple to help as an invader. If it's 2v2 the host gets a blue.
those who feel like the invaders are trespassing their game are childish, and I was feeling that way the first week I played, then grew balls.
While I really don't enjoy PVP at all, but I do feel for anyone encountering that kind of behavior. I've been griefed before, most people who've played these games have. And again, while I don't play with PVP enabled in any way anymore. I do hope Fromsoft does help the PVPers out by maybe changing some things around to keep the PVP from devolving any further.
While I still hope they keep the PVP segregated, I don't want people who specifically invade, or want to get invaded to go through things like that.
I hope PVPers also see why guys like me don't enjoy PVP, and don't make it a mission to insist that PVP be a much larger part of the game than it is at this point, maybe make it on by default, but have a switch so that those who want it and are thereby less likely to grief get matched with others of like mind.
Im not sure how to feel generally about the message besides the end which i totally agree on.
My term i used instead of griefing was people "not playing the game" typically people who rather stand at a grace for 20 minutes rather than advance the level in any meaningful regard, or obviously gankers and such.
My approach to those nowadays is generally just severing, as i value my time and they don't. I want to spend as much of my time as i can on the game enriching the gameplay of people who are actively taking part in its mechanics, as LORD miyazaki intended by making themed builds with neat setups. As i stated above those people do not care about those things and are basically just either extremely chicken, afraid of a genuine challenge in any regard, or doing this games equivalent of ripping through a pack of newports.
This has been my ted talk
May this inspire others to make goofy gimmick builds and sever on nurds
Mostly I wanted to communicate my frustrations with how Elden Ring could address any of these issues with non-engagement and whatever else but instead the game just sorts of lets people do whatever they want, though not in the best way. I'm someone who really, really doesn't like the open world so the open world invasions are just a personal nightmare.
Really, the video is to highlight that a lot of people call out griefing by using certain builds or items or whatever, but my line really comes in when whatever they're doing slows or stops the game. Mostly a roundabout way of me saying "Do whatever you want, just play" and then me wishing the game was better about incentivizing engagement.
@@emotionaljonxvx ah i see, that makes sense. Btw good work on recent videos dude. I like these introspective videos on the pvp of fromsofts games, bc when i think about it
The stuff you talk about applies to not just souls games, but a lot of other pvp games aswell.
It's interesting to hear what sort of grief bothers you in particular. It truly is different for everyone. A host camping the bonfire has always seemed pretty logical to me. If they die, they can pick up their souls easy. They aren't going to get rushed just as they aggro a bunch of mobs. All in all it's a smart play. I especially don't have a problem with this in previous games, where the host might very well be embered and alone. Even in ER with a host and a co, I usually don't get too aggravated by it. Now..if it turns into a 3v1 by merit of a a blue or whatever, and they STILL refuse to chase or push....that's when it starts to irk me. Because without SOME sort of cover or mob support in a 3v1, my chances of pulling out a victory go WAAAAAY down. Encountering a few mobs in a 3v1 situation isn't nearly as dangerous at that point, and only tips the scales very slightly in my direction...gives me a second or two of breathing room....and when they won't even risk that....I could see how that might be something that grinds your gears a bit.
I mostly wanted to highlight that I'm cool with whatever but my personal issue is just with the infinite stalls because it slows everything down. Obviously there are tons of ways to deal with it but I want to encourage people to maybe do something stupid for the sake of interaction. I run headfirst into ganks all the time just to make something happen (I usually pay the price) but I want people to embrace the chaos because the risk is so fundamentally low.
@@emotionaljonxvx I feel you. It would definitely make for more interesting invasions! People really do put an unrealistic amount of investment in staying alive in these situations...as if a death is the end of the world. I was just mostly musing on the fact that what 1 person finds to be peak grief, another person isn't bothered by in the slightest...and how that usually seems to be the case. Similar to the "if you use X weapon, you are the literal devil," where X changes from person to person. It's just all pretty fascinating....I used to deeply care about other people's opinions of me in these games...but that REALLY starts to hamper how you play, and how you enjoy the game.
Tbh it’s gotta start with the host invaders are your opponents not your enemies
It's a hard mental hurdle to overcome for a lot of people and I think hosts are the most unaware of their effect on the tone of invasions. I get a lot of people who claim essentially self-defense or castle law type arguments that no matter what, they have the right to do whatever they want and invaders are always in the wrong. It's a really damaging mentality that can escalate things way too much.
Great video brother!! I have a requests if you are ever up to it. Could you possibly do a video on the history of the blue phantoms from all the games? I feel like the blues never get the credit they deserve they are only looked at as punching bags and I feel like they deserve more credit than they get! Thank you for all your videos I appreciate all your information and opinions!
Yeah, I loved being a blue in previous games and I wish it was a lot better in Elden Ring. Love the idea of justice avengers and really wish they got more focus.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Blues used to be interesting in ds1 but unfortunately the way they have been changed over time is the main reason why they are more or less the "laughing stock" of the pvp community.
In ds3 you at least got some cool rewards for playing as a blue but in my personal experience you almost never get summoned as a blue and if it happens the fight is often already over or you get used as cannon fodder by a gank. In elden ring those things got even worse, because now you also get no real reward, bad spawns and no teleport finger and you are almost always used asganker replacement.
It would be a great video but the downgrades blues recieved over time are probably the worst in the entire multiplayer...
This is exactly why i miss covenants. Yeah it sucked having things locked behind pvp or hours upon hours of grinding offline. But at least it gave you a reason to do pvp. The only thing elden ring pvp gives you is rune arcs, which are good and all. But sometimes just isnt worth it for the time it takes. (The latency in souls games is so bad. Learned that from the youtuber onlywaifu) so hopefully they either add them in dlc. Or at lesst in the next souls game they make
Somebody get this poor man a tall glass of dark souls 4, he’s one step closer to the edge and boyyyyy is he about to break
Shut up when I'm talking to you!
10:40 I can relate to this on a spiritual level, if I end up in a PvP scenario that is obnoxious enough then I end up becoming a griefer myself. The only difference is I just give them the chainsaw because I don’t like wasting my time but I’m too petty to just sever out.
On an unrelated note I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on max level players.
I think playing at max level is cool if you wanna play in the max level bracket, but as an overleveled summon it's pretty silly that it works as well as it does. I don't have a lot of first-hand experience, but as far as I can tell it kind of ruins the incentives of build-making.
Curious tho how come you manually aimed the ballista when you had a targeted shot?
The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma
Your videos are so well thought out. And yeah I do the same thing against cheesy gankers. I join a group of three degenerates trying to ruin invaders times? Well I’m just going to run across the map and afk, waste my time I’ll waste yours.
But also your points are so true, elden ring has the worst of the worst when it comes to toxicity. At first I thought it was because of all the new souls fans, but now I realize it’s because of the way that FromSoft integrated pvp into this game. I miss dark souls 3, and honestly after this dlc drops I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of souls pvp enjoyers go back to ds3
It is a real struggle. I really want to be the bigger person but sometimes I'm just so irritated that I can't help it. Doesn't help that Elden Ring has made sure no matter what you're doing, it's going to take forever.
@@emotionaljonxvx yeah, it’s sort of crazy to think how well the souls series integrated the multiplayer into the games all the way back to demons souls. You could tell those games were designed with the multiplayer components in consideration the entire time. If you think about it, unless you play offline, the souls games are entirely multiplayer games. There is no single player, there are just specific ways you can chose to engage with it or not. But I’m sure almost everyone who wasn’t playing offline in dark souls 1,2, or 3 got invaded at least one time in their first playthroughs of the game and I bet that experience stood out to them during their playthrough. In the same light I’m sure a lot of players during their first playthrough were struggling though a level always fearful of every turn or getting destroyed by some boss only to run up on a white summon sign which they interacted with and had a savior come into their world and help them progress through an area they couldn’t do on their own. That just doesn’t happen in elden ring and it’s pretty sad because it was always the multiplayer interaction of the souls games that made the series stick with me, more so than the bosses or the level design. Unfortunate that most of the new souls fans will never get to experience this, because it’s not in elden ring and the old games are dead, and instead their idea of multiplayer is only gank squads, super twinks, and people running the most “meta” stuff all the time.
I recently got invaded at RL9 while trying to get some armor and som spare Ashes of War from a friend, and some mats to trade off to another Character. We got invaded by someone with all their talismans, fully expanded weapon set up, Rot pots, and powerful strategies. I know I can fight, but the situation was stupid- there was no fighting them. There was no fighting that person at this level with next to no gear...
How was he set up like a level 150 at level 9? I dunno. But it put a bad taste in my mouth knowing some players do this deliberately- using Rot Pots at the literal earliest level, in limgrave, at the church.
Just a regular hypertwink who has probably fought far worse than you in half his invasions or just wants easy kills. It's a balancing issue for a lot of it but it definitely can leave a sour taste when it feels like there's nothing you can do. If you're at all inclined, try invading at low level and see how you find the balance. I've recently made a Limgrave-only gear low level and it's been fun but it has its challenges, especially when you run up against groups who are not using starting gear.
Also, if you ever want to drop trade items, just use the red summon sign. It'll occupy the invasion slot and you can trade uninterrupted.
I just waste their time at a professional level. I'm petty enough to spend the little freetime I have to grief them back
Really liked this one
gonna watch more of your content. made me laugh around half way in when you said that the game is griefing you. good vid
Your videos make me consider trying to give pvp a chance again. Probably in Dark Souls 3 rather than Elden Ring though.
It can be fun in every game, as each has its own little nuances. Elden Ring just suffers from the stiflingly few ways to participate, causing it to get repetitive and predictable in a lot of not so great ways.
Great video! I really agree with you on all of these points. Fantastic video, you said what I’ve been thinking of for months now.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head!
I think that we can definitely just be better community as a whole, but I also think this sentiment will fall on ALOT of deaf ears.
I’ve been spending alot of time on forums tryna promote the redman name in a positive light. But the amount of people who are so absolutely against invasions or any souls pvp is really disheartening. AND it’s very easy to let yourself get sucked into the toxicity, I’ve been there myself and it ruined the game abit for me. But I’m being better now. It’s just that once you get a taste for the horrible attitudes people have, you see it everywhere and it’s really a vicious cycle!
I don’t think it’s going to be an easy task, I think it’s possible but there’s enough bad apples that I’m not sure it’s realistic that this attitude toward pvp will ever change. At least not with Eden ring, unless something changes in future patches or the dlc.
I see so many clips of low level twinks one shoting unsuspecting hosts with lightning pots, or spark aromatics that I really don’t blame the pve community for hating us. This will never change though, there will always be this type of invader. Sadly.
Again great video, it was a breath of fresh air for me! ❤
I play ER with tongue on because I like the challenge even though I'm not skilled enough to deal with invaders most of the time, but I'm not doing this for the invaders' sake, but myself.
I also have friends that abhor PvP and just want to play PvE with other friends, and have zero interest in dealing with the PvP aspect. They will make a point of closing the game because they have a set amount of time allocated to gaming and PvP is a waste of time in their eyes. I 100% support their decision, and would still do so if they were strangers.
To try to call people out for not engaging with you is pathetic at best, and childish at most. The very idea that other players are supposed to engage with you in the first place is laughable.
And before "but ER should let me having my PvP fun the *correct* way", ER devs chose it to be mainly PvE, and the design choices show that. Go to the arena if you want engaging and mutually-agreed-upon PvP, or sever out when you invade "griefers" like any sane person would. They aren't wasting your time, you are wasting it on your own.
The arena obviously isn't a substitute for invasions but I'm sure you know that. I don't mean to come across as someone demanding people do things my way, I just want to encourage people to play the game. I want more interactions and for people to not be apprehensive about invasions. I'm honestly cool with whatever people want to do, but I still want people to engage rather than try to stall indefinitely. It's not like its a major issue, just a personal gripe that doesn't mean too much.
Don't super appreciate being called pathetic though, sort of uncalled for. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's time or dictate what they can or can't do. Just want to encourage people to do things in a meaningful way.
If it helps, I'm not trying to call you pathetic, but I am calling the action itself pathetic. Hopefully knowing the difference between the two helps soften the blow.
Anyway, the only place where both parties are in agreement that PvP is going to happen is in the arena, which is the only reason why it's being mentioned.
You did label those who stall or don't engage in an invasion a 'griefer', but by their very nature, invasions are invasive. You are, in fact, griefing someone's game by invading most of the time, so non-ganking players' reactions will vary. Some will roll with the punches, others will become apathetic in order to move on with their PvE gameplay, and then a few others will stall and make your invasion hell in retaliation.
So, what do we do with griefers? Nothing, we move on.
I love it when ganker try to spawn kill and they just get wrecked by greyoll roar🤣🤣
Sucks that the masses will tell you will get good while twinking for rune arcs
I think griefing implies intent. If your goal is to make them not have fun that's griefing. Your goal is more or less to make them quit and become angry or sad.
Invading in NOT griefing. Ganking is not griefing. Twinking is not griefing. Inherently. Though any of it can be.
Lots of invaders, myself included want to have fun.
-_- 00:32 this sounds exactly like me except I dont do it for pleasure other then beyond to showcase style and combos not grief tho
(I got hate mail for doing like 8 hit combos and they called them cheap and underhanded because in their definition souls games are not about using magic or ashes of war to create a precedent 🤷🏾♂️)
Damn bro you got me sounding like a super villain 😂
To be fair, supervillains are cool.
@@emotionaljonxvx I put that on the ErdTree
2:22 No, it just makes the player an asshole. It's technically "legit" but does not mean it's not any less of a dickhead move. Which is the issue.
Not to be the devil's advocate right now, but I'm obligated to point out one advantage the invader has over hosts in this particular scenario:
If you're facing a bunch of braindead griefers that just want to waste your time, unlike the host that is FORCED to fight you or die, as an invader, you can always just abandon the invasion and leave the host world using the Finger Severer. If the host and co dont respect your time, you have the option to simply not take the abuse at all, unlike the ones you invade. Because you're the one holding them hostage. Run away and live to invade someone else.
If you dont want to leave said invasion because some self percieved challenge or because it would hurt your pride, then that would be another matter.
Fair enough point, the host is stuck with the invader assuming they don't know how to quit out of the application or wouldn't want to. It's completely reasonable to say that only invaders have a mechanic to leave the world willingly, even if the host can force the invader out by progressing, they don't have an item that expels invaders which allows invaders to dictate how long they are present.
That said, I do think that is core to the functionality of an invasion, whereas a host not progressing the level because an invader is present sort of turns assumed goals into mere suggestions and allows or even encourages a host to play as little as possible.
There are a lot of angles to the whole thing to be sure. I just find myself wishing there was more incentive for everyone to be more engaged with invasions.
@@emotionaljonxvx
>Invasion makes host play as little as possible
Why would they?
Think about it, why would the host and co fight the overworld boss when there's an invader hiding under the skirt of an Erdtree Avatar, or when the invader is (metaphorically speaking) just sitting on top of Caelid's bridge dragon head.
Or when there's an invader perched at some high ground or cliff, shooting great arrows, rot pots or slinging magics when the host and co are merely trying to advance towards the boss fog gate, are you surprised then when the invadees decide to 'Nope' and find a comfy spot to hunker down?
Unless you are invading in an open empty area, like the frozen lake, they have no obligation to engage you in a disadvantageous position, which it sounds what you want.
I will remind you, that all of that happens because YOU invade in the first place, all these scummy, honourless tactics are merely a response towards the aggressor.
Not justifying it, just stating how it is.
I’m really really trying to enjoy Elden Ring PvP. Colosseums are fun and reliable for duels, but lack the dynamic crazy situations that can happen in invasions. Invasions can be super fun, but it’s just that 90% of the time it’s garbage gankers and griefers.
I tried having that positive attitude where I just accept the game for how it is, but damn after the 50th time getting blended it just makes u realize you’re not playing a very balanced or fun multiplayer game.
Even low level invasions, like lvl 30 low, aren’t safe bc over half the time it’s some guy with his buddy who is level 300 and given him late game gear. Idk man Elden Ring PvP makes me kinda sad, I miss DS3, I really wish they had put more into it.
But I really enjoy these videos they are pretty cathartic and your commentary is always 10/10
I hear you and I feel you. It's not great a lot of the time and it can be hard to want to do it. If I can give you some advice that has kept me engaged whenever I'm feeling dejected;
Focus on your build and your playstyle. If you're getting thrashed, try making a character that's as interesting to you as possible. And if that isn't working, if you're getting stomped non-stop, try making an absolute cheese build that breaks everything. Watch some PVP youtubers who regularly gank-spank that have a style you like and see what you can emulate. Invasions are heavily stacked against the invader and Elden Ring has removed every in-game incentive to participate, so sometimes your best bet is to do something you might normally find a little "excessive" but that lets you get some overdue wins and helps familiarize you with the more OP mechanics.
Also, straight up, try invading at level 10 - 20 with a +3/+1 - +5/+2 weapon. It's about as casual as invasions get and can help switch things up. You don't even need an OP build because like half the time it's just a fresh group genuinely going through the game. Reminds me of invasions of times past and is a good way to actually have fun.
@@emotionaljonxvx haven’t given up yet, thank you for the advice man!
Honestly I don't think the multiplayer mechanics are even aged. They're just bad, and have always been bad in one way or another, when they could easily be good.
I think From Software means for the mechanics to suck, because they want players to feel a certain way about each other - angry. In the lore, hosts/phantoms and invaders do not get along, and there is always malice towards each other party. That's a fine thing to turn into mechanics, but it does suck that we're just people trying to enjoy a thing, and the mechanics prevent that.
But more than that, I believe that the problem is From Software's intent with Elden Ring, and other Soulsborne games. It is more obvious with Elden Ring than with any other Soulsborne game before, that they care the least about the gameplay, and more about the story, the aesthetic, the sound design, the feeling that a player will get while playing. And really, that's a fine way to design a game, but at that point, the game could've just as easily been a non-interactive medium like a film or a manga.
If they want to continue this path, that's fine, but if they want to make the game part more enjoyable, and more engaging, and as a result have more longevity, then they should either strip away multiplayer like with Sekiro, or develop it as part of the primary focus, just like was the intention with Demon's Souls.
But then again, they have no incentive to do that when these games sell like hotcakes despite any and all flaws; and plus, they seem to want to develop Armored Core games more than Soulsborne games, if we go by the quality of every aspect of AC6.
This video makes me ponder more that I haven't run into dragon communion afk players more, maybe they just don't know. Maybe I shouldn't have posted this.
It's just boring and pointless
Full time bastard here you come lmao hoping the best for you in this journey
hey friend if you don't mine. can you show me your build?. am new in elden ring pc and i really like your build
Yeah, it's level 10 with +3/+1 upgrades. Need the soreseal and starscourge talismans with the mask and 1 point in Strength to wield the cleavers (23 STR) in one hand, rest of the points went into Vigor. Flaming strike or any other fire ash of war just to fit the Omenkiller theme.
@@emotionaljonxvx thanks friend i hope i didn't bother you wish you a good luck👍❤️🔥
@@emotionaljonxvx what is your starting class?
@@user-oi5jo1cd4m Wretch if you wanna be level 10 for the most levels in Vigor, but you can choose others if you go higher level. I'd recommend using a calculator to pick the best one for whatever range you go for.
@@emotionaljonxvx all right friend i don't like to be one-shoted for that i'd like to level vigor, thanks you give me some of your time friend👍🔥
EmoJ! Do you have any ideas how they could actually redesign the invasion system to incentivize the kind of behavior you prefer? As much as I wish we lived in a world where we all treat each other with the respect and dignity we wish to be treated with... I can't help but feel that there is some value in the freedom the invasion system gives us to misbehave... we get to gaze into each other's Dark Souls.
I think there's lots of little things that are going to all be context-dependent. I think the presence of an invader could easily impact other aspects of the game, both by increasing mob aggression and possibly bringing in more invaders or the like as time goes on, encouraging a host to seek out and destroy an invader or progress the level more quickly. It would need to be balanced in reverse, where the invader would have to have some time-sensitive mechanic, maybe a DoT at distance like a Battle Royale fog or something to make sure their best option is to attack. But hat's just an idea off the top.
I think a big part of the problem comes from there being no dynamic shift once an invasion happens. If the invader can't easily pressure you because you're not progressing the level, you have all the incentive to just hang and wait them out. The only counter is time waste but that just doesn't cut it. So I'd say anything that creates urgency and promotes active engagement would be worth considering.
@@emotionaljonxvx interesting, very cool ideas. Love the vids and your approach. Can't wait to see your channel blossom even more.
I think one of the simplest solutions to alleviate the gank/grief problem would be a defacto taunters tongue plus an extra invader slot when a host has 2 phantoms summoned. But i'm def badredman biased lol
@@emotionaljonxvxHow about if you let your invader survive for 10 minutes let’s say, you get another?
@@TheAzul_Indigo I'd take it in a heartbeat! I've pitched it before where I'd be cool with even giving up healing flasks to summon more invaders. Anything to get the battle bigger and more chaotic
11:39 ngl I do this shit anytime I see a 3v1 gank or grace "duels". I dont even mind losing Im just not going to let them have the satisfaction of two shotting invaders and especially me but if it's honest coopers in the shittiest cave on the planet I'll play it out 20 times out of ten because that's what invasions are to me at least
To be fair, when I’m invading someone else and they may or may not want me present, I don’t consider anything they do “griefing.” There’s pettiness for sure hahaha. But I wouldn’t call it griefing at all.
Additionally invaders often have weird advantages that cooping pve players don’t have and the pve players have the advantage of playing with cooperators.
Even ganking doesn’t feel like griefing to me. It feels stupid and petty and immature, but such is the nature of invasions. You don’t know what’s on the other side of that. Just kill it. It might be an insurmountable situation or it might be a poor pve player with their sad friends that you just crush.
The only thing here I think we agree on is players farming invaders whilst AFK and hiding in an inaccessible place to invaders.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness posting this video but honestly it comes off as hypocritical and whingey when you surrender any responsibility on your own end and just blame Elden ring’s design. Especially when you engage in the same petty tactics you are christening “griefing,” it’s shameful at best.
However, your closing statement of sportsmanship and mutuality is commendable. I agree with that, too. Skilfulness inspiring a skilful response and finesse in the face of power washing. 👍
Yeah, I just wanted to highlight that any real griefing (beyond outright cheating) is central to game design and a lack of incentive to engage and I'm actively criticizing myself for sinking to lesser tactics.
I don't mean to claim people need to play a certain way, just wanted to say that I take great frustration with the lack of incentives to engage in PVP and whenever people (on any side) abuse that system that's where it really gets to me the most. Maybe calling it griefing isn't exactly right, but that's sort of my point. The only things that go to far in my mind, or more specifically the things I hate, are things you're still allowed to do and they're not even that crazy. They just drain people's energy and time and discourage people from playing.
Sorry if it comes off like I have an expectation for other people I want met. I just wanted to vent through analysis around the conversation of griefing.
@@emotionaljonxvx No reason to apologise. I kind of know what you mean. But I think when you are criticising the way people play, which discourages most people from engaging, but you also do that thing that you are criticising, it just takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.
Without that aspect to your analysis, I fully agree with it. I run into the same frustrations. But instead of wasting my time or engaging with it, I try to find a way to have fun and if I am not enjoying myself or bringing fun to the people I invade, even if I can tell they're just PVEers and I'm terrorising them, it's enough to prompt me to pull back on the reigns and bow to them, rattle my weapon at them and sever. I'm not here to ruin anyone's day. If I can't be, have and bring a fun time, I just sever.
I think Miyazaki said specifically that he meant for invasions to be a fun, challenging and dynamic way to keep players on their toes. To give them a new and interesting challenge that is unique to their specific experience. It is hard to remove the human shitposting aspect from that intent. Some people bow and play with pure honour. Other people are absolute trolls and bring all the cheese and all the hacks with a downloaded save acc that has infinite pots etc...
But regardless of the choices players make, the intent of Miyazaki remains the same. I think if what you're addressing is that human element, then what you said at the end of your video is chef's kiss and I agree with it completely. Playing with others the way you want others to play with you. Engaging with people in a way that brings fun and maybe adds to their experience without just being an additional frustration.
But that is a choice we make as you explained. It's just, why criticise these people doing the shitposting if you get irritated at feed into that culture within the invasion community as well?
You gotta be the change you wanna see, bro. Spearhead the ethical, fun packing invader. It's what I try to do. Same as when I play a blue. If I see shitposting happening, I sever or don't engage and make sure I downpoint and might even work with the red to bring sweet justice to the shitposter.
One of ussssss!
Great video, deserve the sub and like 👍
Just quit out, block them, fight someone else, do something else entirely perhaps even unrelated to the game. There's no point in wasting your time with griefers. Years later you won't be looking back at yourself and saying "yeah, I made a good decision". You'll instead think "damn, I could've had way more fun doing other things. Why was I so dumb?"
Trueing! 🗣️🗣️
Too many people are playing to be swayed by reason. it's the same for any online game... Same as life lol.
You know makes this game for me so shit? the PVP, it is garbage and I might sounds crazy for some but this game has the WORST PvP ever (I do not count demon souls here) I prefer DS1 PvP to this unfair shit show. I played more than enough to understand how damn unbalanced the PvP/Invasions are in this game. It is always a damn 3 vs 1 or if you are lucky a 3 vs 2. Why not 3 vs 3? Why does Fromsoft have to ruin the online mode so damn much. The only reason why DS3 survived so long it thanks to a great PvE AND PvP experience, yes it had it flaws but it was still fun. Imagine DS3 without all the stupid glitching + some buffs and nerfs on certain weapons, that game would be unmatched when it comes to PvP.
But what bothers me more than anything else are these people who clear the entire area for a 3 vs1 scenario and think they are hot shit in the game, I usually just leave the world whenever I see a world "empty" Also, I might sound like a salt lord with this message but the things is that Elden Ring HAS so much potential but the devs just got their cash and now they ignore the PvP fully, the next patch might be even the last patch lol and tell me what you like but this game is already dead. The DLC brings back some people again and once people are done with the DLC, the numbers will decrease like crazy since there is nothing to do, nobody wants to run in an empty world 24/7 and not everybody enjoys the PvP in this game. Rant over..
Hey buddy, you're preaching to the choir. My whole channel is basically me venting organized frustrations about how good this game should be and where it's consistently missing the mark. The pain is very real.
We have come here for emotional jon
Take me to your leader
@@emotionaljonxvx technically that'd be me
We represent a small creator discord with several channels you probably would enjoy talking to and we want you to join ussssssss togethaaaaa
@@emotionaljonxvx tormented knight DCIIX king bu myself mr nobody and a select group of other creators are waiting to say hello and have long discussions about elden ring
@@hunterjohnson8836 Yeah, just shoot me an email whenever and we can correspond
I’m loving your vids EJ. I think you bring a rational approach to the fun side of PvP. We may have to eventually just organize in discord and enjoy PvP with other cool red men. Keep it up. Try and get in touch with Ziostorm for a collab on the state of PvP going into SotE.
Dark souls 2 pvp > Elden ring pvp
Dark souls 2
@@FighTThePower. elden ring murio desde que salio el single coop para pc
algo tenia ds2 que a pesar de que si no sabias nada de optimizacion de daño o defensa, te podias defender en pvp si tenias una buena estrategia y la ejecutabas sin errores.
Dark souls 2 < getting in a fucking car accident and lobotomizing myself
#leavetaunterstoungeon
Invaders are justified,hosts have overleved summons,more heals and are probably even at a higher level than the invaders.
Rot?you use flame cleanse me.
You don’t have anything for that?play the game and kill the invader.
Invaders will use guerilla tactics bc we are outnumbered literally and figuratively.
ggs.
I'm over it. ER is a single player game to me, like Bloodborne was. Just waiting for them to announce the next game at this point.
Quien se somete a esto voluntariamente sabiendo que los otros dark souls son mucho mejores que esto? 😅
I apologize that I do not speak spanish but google translate may suffice.
Vamos donde está la gente.
@@emotionaljonxvx a este punto los otros dark souls tienen mas población debido a todos los problemas de elden ring yo juego dark souls 3 desde que salio y nunca vi que disminuyera la poblacion al contrario con elden ring trajo mas jugadores a dark souls 3 de los que habia antes 😌
@@emotionaljonxvx elden ring murio desde que salio el single coop para pc
I'd say that invasions on their own can be reasonably considered griefing. However, here's the difference:
Gankers are griefers without skill. Invaders are griefers with style.
if you don’t want to get invaded turn off your wifi. The system is optional. you don’t need phantoms to play the game. if you want them you are opting into invasions. that’s the game, it was built that way. if you don’t like it, then you don’t have to play 🤡
Play Monster Hunter
Monster Hunter is great but no PVP so it's just not a long-term game for me.
i will never feel pity for an invader, like... nobody invited you, the game is already challenging, people are trying to get help from kind strangers or play with their friends, there are fight clubs and coliseums for you to enjoy pvp, but invading a player whos build is made for pve is just cheap and coward, gankers and blue hunters exist only as a bitter medicine for an awful illness running in the unattended mingle player that is elden ring, most invaders i have met in early game are just exploiting rot and poison, and the ones encountered in late game are all using the same strategy: push with dual cross bladed spears, run away when they get their ass handed to them by a 700 hp mage, running away hidding behind the enemy mobs, heal, change to claws with endure to profit from a broken dps while having the poise of laser golem, and if that isnt cheap enough they will just use the electric tornado ash of war.
SKILL ISSUE
@@deathknight1239 there it is, haha very original "git gud scrub" blah blah blah, "sound like a skill issue to me pilot"... go sit on a summoning statue, that will get you good.
@jesusvera7941 if you want a single player game turn off your wifi buddy, nobody is forcing you to engage in a multi-player system that has parts you don't enjoy. So yes either get gud or stop playing online but either way quit complaining because you doing this to yourself
Bro really made a 16 minute video yapping about invasion. If you want pvp where both players engage use the colosseum.
I get these sorts of comments all the time and I do have a video addressing the Colosseum issues. Long/short of it, the arenas don't really accomplish the same thing. Invading is a very unique mechanic that has uneven PVP and that's part of the appeal. I just would like to see the game do a better job facilitating the mechanics rather than not giving people incentives to engage.
But if you're just trying to take a dig at me, that's cool too.
I mean.... PvP DOES suck for a majority of players. It's one reason why the "seamless co-op" mod exists. Not many people want to subject themselves to a laggy unbalanced PvP.
If I wanted to play PvP. I'll play another game where it FEELS good. PvP in this game has poor feedback because I either hit the foe, but the animations didn't connect. Or, I wiff despite the weapon connecting.
Frankly... I'll just be one of those many commentors who wouldn't care if Invasions, or PvP in this series never came back. I've had more bad experiences with it than good.
I hear you, I feel you. Latency and imbalance make for bad PVP on so many fronts. I just want to tell you that even though it can suck, and suck hard, and that Elden Ring has made as many bad adjustments as it has good, that there is something special about it. There are things that make the PVP worthwhile and there is a reason so many people love it, despite all the jank.
Maybe one day FromSoft will fix it all and maybe one day you'll fall in love with it. All I can do is encourage you to keep an open mind about the possibilities.
The latency issues are mostly on PC
On console it’s much more bearable you just have to deal with dropped inputs which are more common on console
That being said people look at this game the wrong way
It’s a single player game with transient coop
Not a coop drop in drop out type game. The mod is cool but it just shows the bigger issue, that the game can support 6 players in the open world but they chose not to include it.
Dude, one of the weirdest copes I've seen in the PvP community was the dismissal that seamless removes the invasion mechanic and people love that. Some of the most prolific invaders saying stuff to the effect of "nah, seamless is good cuz stability and stuff, cuz it's a hassle" as if they've ever organically co-oped from Limgrave to Radagon and know what playing like that for hours on end even feels like is mind-bogging to me - most of these players are not even on PC lol
I don't know what to call that if not cope. The idea seamless would liberalize co-op but allow invaders to "disturb" that balance is just... it's invader copium lol
Yeah PC lat is just horrible, it's why I stopped pvping. Plus you have the people with garbage PCs who only update at like 20fps microskipping all over the place (at least that's what I assume is happening). I really like the pvp but EAC lat and no ping filter absolutely ruin it and I'm not about to support S*ny, one of the most evil corps in gaming, by buying a ps5.
@@kimlee6643 As someone who likes invasions and invading, I 100% agree with you. Tying invasions to coop in ER was such a mind-bogglingly stupid move, and it's even more mind-boggling that there has been zero consideration to adjust or change it.
Make no mistake: invading, at least in Elden Ring, is straight up griefing. First of all, there are no covenants like in previous souls games, which means there are zero reasons to actually invade already. For the excuse of “iTs aBoUt tHe rEwArDs,” there is literally no point in invading over being a cooperator if it’s about what you gain. Not only do you get the exact same rune arc and finger remedy, you also get significantly more runes than you do invading since you get a percentage of the boss’s runes. So already toxic invading losers are down an excuse. If it’s about “the pvp experience” or whatever, they literally added the colosseum for that exact reason. And if you’re so petty to say “there’s no point in pvp without rewards,” then literally use the duelists finger. You get to kill people without griefing someone else’s world, AND you get the measly rewards that are oh so necessary for the experience. So just know that there’s no excuse you toxic losers can use for invading since there are both other ways to pvp and earn the rewards from multiplayer. Please just admit you’re a toxic loser who hasn’t touched grass in a decade if you invade.
Shit take
it's not about the rewards, it's about tradition
Just because someone wants to play the role of antagonist, doesn’t make them a bad person. It’s the same as acting the villain in a performance. Also, if you hate invaders so much, just win.
Then explain why taunters tongue exist
Just protect your host or kill the invader and enter the boss gate like normal
Invading is so lame. It's for people who don't have friends & want to ruin the fun of other ppl. The presence of Duels and the Colosseum are proof that invasion is pathetic.
Almost all the time co-op is to help a low level friend. Why are they allowing losers to enter my game.
My theory: FromSoft is aware that the average player of their games is an entitled strength player who scoofs at anything fun like magic or summons. Invasions are a way for those bitter try hards to spread their misery. Multiple ppl I've tried to get into the game, have dropped the game because of invaders. I will waste all day at the grace bc your bitterness will not dictate how I enjoy my game.
Just say you're garbage and be done with it
@@FighTThePower. Nah, man. You don't understand he can't accept invasions as an actual mechanic meant to balance the fact that you can steamroll the PVE with 2 or 3 players which can be a higher level completely invalidating any actual challenge the game tries to offer.
Invasion is the game way to balance the difficulty, you forget souls game don't want to be treated as an easy game. Proof of this? You get invaded only when you have at least 1 yellow summon. You will grow out of this phase soon 🙏
Ganker spotted 😂
They’re not losers entering your game if they win against you and your friends. They’re winners. Js.
So I heard that people caught glitching and cheating are prioritized for being lobbied up with others who have also. No idea if it's true thoufh
There's a cheater's bracket in Dark Souls 3 for sure, not sure about Elden Ring.
@@emotionaljonxvx hmm. That gives weight to it though imo
this hits weird given just last night some hacker invaded me in ds2 and almost bricked my save by injecting my inventory with 100+ +15 bleed daggers (invalid item).
Thankfully i found out how to fix it with cheat engine in offline mode, but when I hear "griefing" that's the sort of behavior I expect. Malicious, parasitic, and only for the purpose of making other players suffer, with no gain to yourself.
With your description, personally (typically as a host since I play co-op often), when someone is playing in such an unsporting manner, I also am unsporting: I force close the game. I deprive them the opportunity. A minute of my life re-booting the game to avoid someone whose only goal is to make their engagement with me as much of a tedious and unsatisfying chore as possible? I think that's a valid response.
Alternatively, I test their patience. My buddy and I like to joke that no invader is more patient than we are: we'll camp out somewhere that's extremely safe from the griefer's tactics, and wait until they approach us. I'll be tabbed out, on twitter or ordering food or watching a youtube video. As best I can, I'll force the invader to engage us on our terms, or not engage us at all. We'll do this with invaders who grief, or invaders who clearly will run away and only fight us alongside challenging PvE they can take advantage of - if all they want to do is take advantage of the PvE, then we'll do the opposite; take advantage of the lack thereof.
Just got to the part where you're describing exactly that, and I disagree with your characterization personally.
We dont sit behind a wall of spells and spam, we just wait. We don't typically have some "silver bullet" idea of what to do when you push us, we just want to fight you here. We don't have much in the way of a plan against invaders, nor do we have builds twinked out to grief invaders. We just decide where we want to fight, and let you decide if you want to take part in that.
In that sense, it's us waiting for you, and you who is wasting our time. You can always make the first move, and we want you to, because we want to fight you. We just don't want to fight on your terms. I've waited a good 25 minutes for invaders to make a move. I'm sure I'll end up waiting longer in the future.
To be clear, I don't think all hosts who don't want to rush into enemies are always going to be griefers, just that staying where they are most safe and most advantaged and the least engaged with the level is a tactic that I think is a common form of griefing. Even then, I think by framing invaders as griefers for trying to get you to fight them in the level is maybe a little off-base, as it implies a symmetry to the dynamic that I personally don't see.
Either way, cheaters are a bad thing in pretty much any game, but I would otherwise encourage you to maybe try engaging with invasions in a less reserved or indirect fashion. Obviously, play however you want, but it can be a good time for everyone whereas I can't imagine not playing the game necessarily qualifies. And I should know as I have done all the same things. For me, it's just not how I want the game to function and I'm trying to be better about my more negative or reductive impulses.
Simple, bring back invasion timers just like in dark souls 2. Jeenine tactics suddenly obsolete