Is Burden of Command Tactically Credible?
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- Explored in more detail (17 minutes). Narrated by the project lead and lead designer Luke Hughes.
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My grandfather was a 1LT serving as S3 for an armored infantry battalion during a failed operation in WW2, part of which featured the battalion commander leading a beachhead on the far side of a river from most of the company. The commander kept the beachhead alive and eventually they got back-after destroying everything they couldn't swim with and swimming back under cover of darkness-but the morning reports regarding both sides of the river are a very good real-time record of morale spiraling downhill, as both positions were under constant fire for days.
For his service during this time, my grandfather received a Bronze Star and was eventually relieved by a Captain once they got one. He was later made dogsbody to Bruce Clarke during the defense of St. Vith, and for the rest of his life, Clarke sent my grandfather a copy of everything he published, always with a handwritten note inside, especially if it was about leadership.
There's no way I'll ever know what that was really like, but I've been waiting for this game for a long time, and I'm glad to see that it will be attempting to accurately simulate key aspects of morale and leadership.
@@MAlanThomasII Ian (?) thank you for taking the time to chronicle your grandfather. Any chance it was in Italy? Sounds familiar to me. Know what unit p/division he was in by chance? Many of our volunteers are either current military or there ancestors were in wwii. My Dad was USN Pacific in WWII. Though he did not see combat. But definitely a motivator me me.
Did you see the “Is Burden Historically Credible ?1” video a week or so back? Might interest you.
Luke (lead)
P.s the morale spiraling down is interesting. McManus our advising historian has written on how morale is effected by more then combat. Sleep, fatigue, shelter or lack etc. we try to capture so,e of that via narrative events effecting unit morale.
@@burdenofcommand2094 (Alan)
23Bn, 7AD. France and Germany, although my grandfather never made it past the Ardennes due to a severe wounding.
The river crossing was their first attempt to cross the Moselle near Metz. The bulk of the battalion that was left on the west bank under the XO's command was within range of Metz's defenders and had to shelter in buildings due to constant harassing fire. The elements that crossed with the CO were stuck because there were significant defenders, and no boats survived to either reinforce or evacuate-when they tried bringing in more boats, those were also destroyed-and they credited excellent artillery support with keeping them alive and uncaptured by creating a defensive perimeter of artillery fire until they gave up their position and swam back across the the river under cover of night. If I remember the morning reports correctly, the CO was wounded at some point during this, due to leading from the front, but I don't know the details.
At St. Vith, after becoming one of General Clarke's ADCs, my grandfather was sent into St. Vith to keep the General in direct contact with the defenders. Clarke was, shall we say, not the type to sit back and assume things would filter up and down the chain of command quickly and accurately, especially in the rapidly-evolving chaos of the Bulge. In fact, Clarke and his opposite number with the German forces both spent the first day of the Bulge at congested crossroads, directing traffic; only they had the large-scale picture to know which units needed to be going where and which needed priority in getting through. You could say that's reflected in a game mechanic of a higher-ranked officer choosing which units to activate. :)
"War is a drama not a game of chess." Dwight Eisenhower
@@aaronjones2117 Hi Aaron! I did not know that one! Ike is one of my heroes so I like learning it. 🙏
Luke
I suppose game mechanics should adhere to fiction that higher ups interfering with jobs makes results better.
@@murkki018 LOL. Touche.
Though you will find the game narrative fiction does in fact makes the higher ups a pain/friction at times.But I get your tactical point.
we also try to convey that coordination across platoons is hard.
Luke
I remember Colonel John Antal from the brothers in arms games, excellent to see he's involved here too or at least an inspiration
@@AlreadyDead87 he has consulted and been generous with his time. Also we hope to have him do some color commentary during future live streams. But we shall see :). Luke (lead).
P,s. Love your handle BTW LOL
Can't wait!!!
@@spiraling69 🙏
This!
@@DerAua release window announcement tomorrow!
Luke (lead)
This is on my Steam wishlist. Looking forward to it!
@@man_vs_life thank you man_vs_life (
Wishlisted since 2020! Can't wait
@@unclemestor dude only since 2020? Not since 2017??? 😜😞😆
Seriously thanks for your patience. We will be announcing our release window this month.
Luke (lead)
Is this game almost done yet or am I going to die before it gets released?
@@titus6452 yeah I want to be alive when it gets released too LOL. Well I’ve got good news for both of us. We will announce what the release window is later this month! Presuming I don’t die first LOL. Thanks for your patience, we’re almost there….
@@burdenofcommand2094Great to hear, I hope the release isn't far away
The gameplay look sounds similar to Brothers in Arms, and Full Spectrum Warrior.
@@TacticsWithJoe the executive producee of BiA Colonel John Antal advises us. He encouraged the 4Fs approach.
Please tell me about Full Spectrum Warrior and 4Fs. Not familiar.
Luke (lead)
@@TacticsWithJoe did you notice BTW I finally got the wishlist links etc into the description this time? ;) See I can be taught 😜
@@burdenofcommand2094 Full Spectrum Warrior is definitely a game to try out. (The first one that is). The setting is fictionalized, but it clearly plays during the first invasion of Iraq. You lead two fire teams through urban combat, where most of the time you have to use one team to either suppress or draw fire, so that the other team can flank and either make the enemy retreat or engage them from a better angle. Running out in the open without using one team to cover an area for the advancing team will very often lead to casualties. Casualties have to be manually picked up and brought back to medical team in the rear so that the casualty can be patched up again. Leaving a casualty unattended will lead them them bleeding out, which is game over. That said, as the game goes on, it sadly becomes very clear that the game is designed to make you take on obstacles in one way and one way only, limiting player freedom and creativity, which can get very frustrating when you want to do something your way, but realize that the game is coded to not let you do that, even though it could work.
@@donr444 thank you for taking time for a careful description. I will try to watch something on. I really wish we had had capacity to do stretcher teams etc. Classic Burden of Command, namely men vs mission, also having medics around are arguably a morale boost. Maybe in future versions.
@@donr444 so I watched a video on Full Spectrum based on your advise. Interesting! Didn’t realize it was US Army commissioned. Also the stretcher emphasis for victory conditions was very interesting. The closest we come consistently at least in spirit (though we have some medic narrative moments) is having two distinct victory conditions: Men and Mission. The essence of the Burden of Command.
So how would you take on an exact obstacle like at @6:00 ? Would it even be possible in the game with those mechanics in place?
@@donr444 I like thoughtful questions. No one has asked that before. You would need a high quality leader and unit on your side to undauntedly take you across for the assualt… which would likely be a full hard ass melee. Bloody. Or you keep pounding with ranged fire waiting for it to fail an undaunted Morale check. Or wear it down slowly with casualties which reduce morale. Basically it is a classic strongpoint problem.
Luke (lead)
P.s. also if you had offboard artillery. Much more casualty causing then small arms.
Pretty interested in your game tbh - seems like these things you talk about are grossly underestimated in small infantry engagements. I recall reading some infantry captains commentary somewhere that an entire battalion of unmotivated men cannot do what a platoon of motivated men will - and that artillery usually makes up the difference, and sometimes is the only thing that carries a defence.
Tell me: Are you going to do a better job simulating entrenchment than the Combat Mission CM2 engine as well? Because frankly, the trenches and foxholes simulated in that series are so dire as to be virtually worthless, whereas, and I'm sure you know this, they are actually fundamental to resisting all sorts of fire.
@@alexanderheritage Alexander thank you for thoughtful comments.
The one I always like along the morale lines is Napoleon’s “Morale is to material as is the ratio of three to one."
That being said, like you imply, artillery is a different kettle of fish in terms of causing casualties. Also a big Suppressor and gives shock (“weapon push”) first time used.
Well I would never want to try to ouclass Combat Mission on the hardcore modeling (as opposed to psychological stuff and narrative Burden) . That being said yes foxholes matter and are auto generated by barrages I believe (been awhile since I wrote that code 😜). Trenches are definitely useful and in the game.
P.s. one of the reasons German did as poorly as they did were the units were often highly motivated new recruits but poorly trained.So the did human waves and got slaughtered. Burden doesn’t distinguish having high morale but low traing. But thinking about for future campaigns..
Really cool, wishlisted. Exactly the topic I am interested in.
Since you are doing XCom style action limit, you might as well make it a WEGO system. I know XCOM isn't doing that, but XCOM system is designed to make the combat more casual, not for strategic depth or simulation fidelity. I ofc don't expect this game to be WEGO, just a suggestion for the future.
And thanks for the sources.
@@user-mf3oc6mj5l thank you. And thoughtful commentary (really). Maybe you are right honestly. We do get perhaps an unnecessary learning curve due to not doing WEGO. And you are right for a broader audience why not simplify. We could still enforce C&C (1st Plt commanded a specific Lt).
Too late for this version but maybe the future.
Luke (lead)
P.s next week or two we will cover if we are historically credible,
Hmmm.. still thinking about. Though making WEGO makes cross platoon coordination easy.
You could also do Combat Mission simultaenous. But that would be technically very challenging and not friendly to a broader audience. And was never keen on the heavy planning vs immediate feedback of it,
Tricky tension between ease of gameplay and credible experience.
@@burdenofcommand2094 With regards to Combat Mission, I personally prefer focused games with transparent mechanics. I'm not saying Combat Mission isn't focused, but they are doing their own thing and since your thing is psychology of combat, I think it makes sense to choose the style of presentation and gameplay that makes those mechanics clear and transparent and then build from there.
The main design obstacle with WEGO systems is specifying how units should react and adapt to changing conditions during the turn. Since you have a 2 action per turn limit, that kinda solves itself because not much is going to happen in a turn anyway. Hence why I said you might as well go for a WEGO system. But there are most likely still a lot of nuances to consider.
@@user-mf3oc6mj5l damn you should be a playtester. Great clear comments. Well on that basis - keep design focus on leadership…which I tried to obsess on so to speak - I would say stick to leader rounds and not do WEGO. It emphasizes leader C&C and also makes you think each Round “which leader is it most important to activate.” So your comments makes the decision to keep clear for me, even at some cost to casual simplicity.
Thanks!
Luke
i neeeeed it
@@stageblood9935 we neeeeds it… we needs it the Precious!
😜
Thank you, we will be announcing our release window later this month.
Luke (lead)
Interesting
@@Gamer_1745 I can see we will have to work extra hard to persuade ;) Luke (lead)
best command game is pub battle.
@@YOUPIMatin123 thank you p. That is new to me. I will look into it. Are you familiar with Ben Hull Horse and Musket games? BTW did a previous video on our boardgame influences.
Hey just wanted to come back and thank you for the tip on Pub Battles. Elegant Chit Pull plus leadership roll off to seize the initiative. As it happens really wanted to get some chit pull going to Burden. And leadership trumping as to who goes next. But ran out of time for yet one more feature. But big believe in chaos in war (Combat Commander anyone?) but will have to wait for future versions 🙂 Luke (lead)
@@burdenofcommand2094 happy you loved it
Check the channel "solo battles" he plays a lot of it
It’s simpler than ASL…
That’s not a complaint 😂
@@bathhatingcat8626 LOL not a high bar to be simpler then ASL. Did you see the boardgame focused video BTW? I compare it explicitly to SL (and by implication to ASL). But yeah simpler 8-) Luke (lead)
I uhhh…I gotta be honest I just see another hex based ww2 game 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ I don’t mean anything bad by it. I just don’t see what this has that other hex games do.
Hey I love the honest feedback. keeps us honest. Well the core difference IMHO is the leadership narrative/burden of command aspect built on top of this. That is the 'leadership RPG' thing ;-). For that perhaps see our original teaser and some of our other more narratively focused videos. Plus the RPG side of things. But would I say this is a wildly novel tactical engine? No. But that is not its central focus (nor the goal of this particular video to claim such).
It's a leadership RPG drawing on some classical wargame aspects (especially from boardgames). If you're a boardgamer please see the previous video to this. Two minutes long. Also my talk at Georgetown Wargaming Society. Definitely standing on the shoulders of giants in that regard (boardgames).
Luke (lead)
@@burdenofcommand2094 My issue with these types of games is the AI usually isn't very good especially on the attack. Many of them are like puzzles once you figure it out you win every time. Can you play as the Germans or are they the punching bag? Like many players Combat Mission has been my go to for tactical level gaming. My grip about CM is when it's over its over, there isn't any story. The old Squad Leader board game had a campaign system where "you" gained XP and improved on the battlefield.
@@briangulley6027 good questions. The AI should be adequate with Germans. The Vichy and Italians will feel stupid because they are low morale (neither wanted to fight at this stage). You cannot play as Germans. This is a linear RPG campaign where you follow an historic unit the Cottonbalers (7thRGt/3ID). It is story heavy but the story is very history based. This Saturday a video will be out on our historical credibility.
Units gain XP across Campaign. Leaders gain XP and Trust. You also get Mindsets. There is a dedicared video on latter.
Replayability is limited (though we have playtesters who have wanted to). But 70 hours of play so maybe that is enough :)
So think of it like a story based non open world RPG. But heavily based on real history and the realities of combat and leadsrship.
Hope I answered most of your questions.
Play burden to have a leadership roleplaying experience. Not to have a wannabee Combat Mission experience :)
Best,
Luke
@@burdenofcommand2094 Thank you for the reply. For replay maybe the "history" of other units to include other countries could be add-ons down the read. The US was "only" fighting in Europe for a little over a year. A German campaign could be 6 years. The same leadership principles apply no matter the country/army except for Russia they didn't give two hoots about their troop's lives. That could be modelled too, if you lose a battle and didn't take 75% loses you lose "points" in the campaign.
@@briangulley6027 Great minds. We plan futures DLCs on many different countries. Germany will certainly be one of them. We already have our next country and first DLC planned... but secret ;-)
We believe the combat model -- based on talking to experts - can go from late wwi (Sturmtruppen) to Vietnam.
As for your Russian point (I agree), ouch.
Luke
@burdenofcommand2094 great video luke as always
@@Blitz-dt2mt 🙏