Why I Don't Like Sonic Games
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2024
- This is a video that I've been wanting to make for the longest friggin' time, but I wasn't exactly sure how I wanted to go about it. So I decided to go BIG!... Or at least as big as I've ever gone before. I just thought that a video like this needed to exist and I knew that I only had one shot to get it right. I don't see a lot of decent anti-Sonic videos out there, but maybe there's a reason for that...
...So help me change my mind.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Music List:
00:00 - Crazy Machine Elements - ???
01:37 - Crazy Machine Elements - ???
03:30 - Digimon All-Star Rumble - Factory Town Area 1
04:52 - Street Fighter X Tekken - Customization Menu
07:17 - Velocity 2X - Hail Vokh
09:15 - Ultionus: A Tale of Petty Revenge - Orbital Bombardment
11:20 - Yooka-Laylee - Kartos Challenge (Moodymaze Marsh)
13:57 - Superbeat XONiC - Now Rolling...
15:00 - Sonic Advance - Egg Rocket Zone
16:01 - Awesomenauts - No Blue Elephants, Please
16:39 - Metroid Prime - Depths of Phendrana Drifts
20:48 - Superbeat XONiC - Souls of Vampire
21:44 - Namco Museum Vol. 3 - "Phozon" Room
23:24 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Danger of the Ooze - Sewer
25:41 - Mega Man X6 - Dr. Light
26:05 - Crystal Quest (Xbox Live Arcade) - ???
27:24 - Adventure Time; Finn and Jake Investigations - ???
27:52 - 0-D Beat Drop - Guided by Light
28:41 - Castlevania: Symphony of the Night - Lost Painting
30:37 - Cool World (SNES) - You've Been Notified
31:33 - Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! - Boss Boogie
32:22 - La-Mulana - Grand History
34:47 - Streets of Rage - The Last Soul
36:02 - Adventure Time: Explore the Dungeon Because I DON'T KNOW! - Gum Lab 1
38:18 - Bubsy: The Woolies Strike Back - Asteroids 1
40:46 - Sonic Adventure - Pleasure Castle
42:03 - Tekken 4 - Touch & Go
42:56 - Cadillacs and Dinosaurs - Like a Gale
44:03 - Inspector Gadget (SNES) - Ancient English Castle
45:42 - The Flintstones (SNES) - Staff Roll
47:07 - CLANNAD - Snowfield
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steam ➤ steamcommunity.com/id/TheNega...
Twitch ➤ / thenegativeion
Xbox ➤ www.trueachievements.com/game...
PlayStation ➤ www.truetrophies.com/gamer/Th...
Nintendo Network ID ➤ TheNegativeIon 
Игры
Alright, I guess it’s finally time to, hopefully, not make a fool out of myself. It is time for me to be “that guy” with the mountain of text. You probably have heard everything I’m about to type before, but here it is, anyways. I will address the video in order of when it appeared.
The boss of Carnival Night Act 2 doesn’t require waiting. You can insta-shield the boss and beat it quite quickly as Sonic. By the way, are you aware of the differences between the versions of the Adventure games? There is even a whole website dedicated to show all the differences for Sonic Adventure. (dreamcastify.unreliable.network) Sonic Adventure 2 Battle has some problems, but isn’t nearly as bad off as the first one.
The complaint about not being able to see enemies ahead of you can come off as really weird to most people, unless you are talking about a certain spot. Most will acknowledge Metropolis’ enemies or the spike balls in Marble Garden. Though, to be fair, I played Sonic 3 for the first time in a while just before typing this, and I somehow avoided every spike ball in Marble Garden. I did get hit by those stupid crickets near the end of act 2, though. Back to the main topic, I even found the complaint of not being able to react to the enemies ahead a bit strange, at first. Then, I remembered what playing these games for the first time was like. I did play Sonic 1 as a kid, but I didn’t have access to Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 until I was nearly a teenager. I played Sonic 2 and was really let down. The game was just too infuriating, and it makes you start the game over from the beginning, when you run out of continues. It was a bit later I decided to give Sonic 3 a try. I may have gotten a game over in Angel Island Zone. I definitely got one in Hydrocity. I was determined to improve. Why? I guess it was because I liked the music, the graphics, the speed, and the story. I also didn’t have that many other games to play, at the time. Long story short, I got pretty good. I decided to go back to Sonic 2. It was way more enjoyable, and I was able to get way further in the game. Yeah, Sonic 2 was unfair at times, but I just tried to get better at it every time. By this point in time, I did have the ability to play other games, but Sonic had me hooked. I couldn’t help but try to get better at Sonic 2. Now, what does this have to do with getting hit by an enemy off screen? Well, if you are, oh boy, this is going to sound dumb, good at Sonic himself, it doesn’t happen as much. It still does, but it only results in a brief stop in your non-stop speedy run that you will try to avoid next time. I know that memorizing something in order to do it better next time isn’t appealing to you, but the flow of Sonic is just so fun. That is, once you achieve it. Sonic has some physics that are very interesting and can cause the game to become a bit of a puzzle. You can find yourself having to figure out how to get Sonic to certain spots. Now, maybe you do have the flow of movement with Sonic down. Maybe Sonic games just aren’t for you, or at least certain ones. It was a bit odd to me that, considering the title of the video, there are a few you enjoy. In my experience getting Sonic, or at least the three main classics, was something that I got over time. It doesn’t seem like I’m alone, either. Check out KingK’s “Learning to Love Sonic Mania”, and ShayMay’s “Nights’ into Dreams...”(even though ShayMay’s video is mainly about another game that you should probably give a try). I also think that the people who really enjoy the three main classic titles are blazing through sections that would give others trouble, or they could be taking a completely different path than others. This could even not be due to memorizing the level but rather because they noticed a tricky path to get on and wanted to take it. Sonic 2 typically heavily rewards those who take the top path, especially for more casual play. I’d say that the main first three Sonic games and Mania take a lot of skill-not skill in getting to the end but rather skill to make every level play fast, or at least somewhat speedy.
I wouldn’t argue that the ring system isn’t abused at certain points. I think the argument of having to memorize the levels is a bit more complicated. It depends on what games are being referred to. Some Sonic games do have trial and error elements to them. I’ve never really minded that kind of game design, though. People will criticize the Advance games a lot, because it doesn’t matter how good a player you are, you will always run into something cheap. They are also cheaper than the main three classic titles, at least from what I’ve heard; I have only played Advance 3. I agree that the games need to reward the dedication of putting the time in. As stated earlier, Sonic 2 was fun the first time I revisited it. Sonic Mania was fun the first time I played it. I don’t have Sonic 3 engraved into my mind like most of Sonic 2, and I can say that you don’t have to know the entire level to play it fast. On the subject of getting faster times, some Sonic games do have rankings, but those take in other things besides just time… I do like some of your ideas for rewards for faster times, but needing to get a fast time in order to beat the game seems like it would be a big pain to others.
A reward for getting the emeralds during your first playthrough is to be able to go super during it. Sonic and Tails have a different ending if you get all the super emeralds. It’s not too different, but I think it is a good enough reward. You also can play as the super cool Hyper Sonic. Tails gets a super form when you get the super emeralds. I noticed you got Knuckles’ super ending, which has less differences between regular and super emeralds than the other ending you get as playing Sonic or Tails. I would really consider being able to like the main three classics and Mania is different than liking the other games. You have probably heard about those that like the main three classics and Mania, but don’t like the two adventure games. They may not like CD, or maybe Colors. I want to know your thoughts about Mania. That game lessened the cheapness of the classic formula immensely. I also have a garbage RUclips channel where I’m still trying to get everything down. Please be prepared for some not so great content, if you check it out.
Don't worry, I have the same fear as you. Probably more so than you because it's not often we see any logical reasons for one to dislike Sonic games. Reading long comments isn't something I'm a stranger to; It's like going to the supermarket to me. If there's something that I don't quote, it's either because I agree or I just don't have anything to say regarding it.
"The boss of Carnival Night Act 2 doesn’t require waiting. You can insta-shield the boss and beat it quite quickly as Sonic."
That may be true, but that would put you at a higher risk of getting hit and you would need to be a pretty high-level player to be able to pull it off without that happening. Hell, if you do get hit, wouldn't a better alternative be to just use those invincibility frames to sneak in a few extra hits and beat it just as quickly if not faster? Yes, while it does show how skillful you are, that wouldn't be enough to save this boss. I think what they could've done here was just flatout make him vulnerable after he drops his ball so you could hit him from underneath before he uses his magnet. That way, you're not waiting so long for him to lower or using a high-risk move with little reward.
"By the way, are you aware of the differences between the versions of the Adventure games?"
That depends on what you mean by versions. Are you talking about the differences between SA1 and SA2? SA2 and SA2B? SADX for GameCube and SADX for PC? Do you mean update versions like 1.01 and 1.02 or something?
"The complaint about not being able to see enemies ahead of you can come off as really weird to most people, unless you are talking about a certain spot."
I think the reason it feels weird is because of how the momentum works in this game and, honestly, I feel rather silly not mentioning this in the video. Even if you are able to react within the average .328 seconds and push the d-pad in the opposite direction, you're more than likely already traveling at too high of a speed at the time so that you take the hit anyway because your reverse momentum don't stop you quickly enough. I don't think it's something that one could easily understand from just watching someone play so maybe that's why.
"Most will acknowledge Metropolis’ enemies or the spike balls in Marble Garden. Though, to be fair, I played Sonic 3 for the first time in a while just before typing this, and I somehow avoided every spike ball in Marble Garden. I did get hit by those stupid crickets near the end of act 2, though."
Somehow?
"I was determined to improve. Why? I guess it was because I liked the music, the graphics, the speed, and the story."
Huh. You and I both, then. We probably just really wanted to see what was next is all.
"Now, what does this have to do with getting hit by an enemy off screen? Well, if you are, oh boy, this is going to sound dumb, good at Sonic himself, it doesn’t happen as much. It still does, but it only results in a brief stop in your non-stop speedy run that you will try to avoid next time."
Well that's not much of a punishment, really, considering that non-stop speedy runs are something that players artificially create for themselves to put the level design and controls to better use because there's no direct incentive in these games (especially the Genesis games and Mania) to do so.
"Maybe Sonic games just aren’t for you, or at least certain ones. It was a bit odd to me that, considering the title of the video, there are a few you enjoy."
Well I suppose I could've called the video "Why I Don't Like GOOD Sonic Games" instead, but that would be suggesting that Sonic 3 is an objectively good game and that Sonic CD is an objectively bad game. Call me an extremist, but objective quality isn't something I believe in, so I thought that the current title was the best fit. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as I say.
But actually, I find it even weirder that the games that I DON'T like are the ones that virtually everyone likes. Hell, even Mr. Anti-Sonic himself, Egoraptor, likes Sonic 3. That was another reason I made this video in the way I did. It shows me that it's possible to prioritize gameplay like he does and still like those kinds of Sonic games. And because I grew up with the franchise myself, I cared enough about Sonic to publicly express my discontent with the franchise in general to see where I'm mixed up. Hell, I'm just glad that you and I are having this conversation right now. That's already more than I could ever ask for!
"In my experience getting Sonic, or at least the three main classics, was something that I got over time. It doesn’t seem like I’m alone, either. Check out KingK’s “Learning to Love Sonic Mania”, and ShayMay’s “Nights’ into Dreams...”(even though ShayMay’s video is mainly about another game that you should probably give a try)."
I just watched KingK's video and... long story short, I would just be making the same points for the most part. I also kinda cringed at how he scripted his video, but that's a story for another day. Maybe I'll watch ShayMay's video at a later time.
"Sonic 2 typically heavily rewards those who take the top path, especially for more casual play."
Heavily? Like what?
"I’d say that the main first three Sonic games and Mania take a lot of skill-not skill in getting to the end but rather skill to make every level play fast, or at least somewhat speedy."
Same with Mario, Mega Man, Crash Bandicoot, and the like. So?
"People will criticize the Advance games a lot, because it doesn’t matter how good a player you are, you will always run into something cheap. They are also cheaper than the main three classic titles, at least from what I’ve heard; I have only played Advance 3."
I find that hard to believe if they can just play the Advance games the same way they do the Genesis games regardless of the screen crunch. Especially Advance 1 as that's the closest resemblance of the Genesis games in terms of playstyle. However, I can only really speak from experience with that one game. I kinda gave up early on in 2.
The Egg Rocket theme is pretty bitchin', though (that's the song at 15:00 in the video).
"I agree that the games need to reward the dedication of putting the time in."
Directly, no? Sonic games, no?
"As stated earlier, Sonic 2 was fun the first time I revisited it. Sonic Mania was fun the first time I played it. I don’t have Sonic 3 engraved into my mind like most of Sonic 2, and I can say that you don’t have to know the entire level to play it fast."
Maybe not the entire level since you'll probably still be looking for the fastest route at the time and one you do, you'll pretty much stick to that one in subsequent speedruns. Sonic Mania makes a little more sense to me since that game has much more forgiving level design in general from what I remember.
"On the subject of getting faster times, some Sonic games do have rankings, but those take in other things besides just time…"
Well, to cop a quote from an infamous translator: "It's better than nothing."
"I do like some of your ideas for rewards for faster times, but needing to get a fast time in order to beat the game seems like it would be a big pain to others."
I don't think so as long as the threshold is reasonable. Of course I wouldn't want only absolute speedrunning masters to be able to reach the final boss... but maybe for optional extras like artwork or music tracks and the like? How about multiple difficulty levels? Or have completing optional missions (like ones akin to those of Sonic Generations) help make the target time easier to reach or something? I dunno. Like I said, I think we can make it work.
"A reward for getting the emeralds during your first playthrough is to be able to go super during it."
...Smartass.
"Sonic and Tails have a different ending if you get all the super emeralds. It’s not too different, but I think it is a good enough reward. You also can play as the super cool Hyper Sonic. Tails gets a super form when you get the super emeralds. I noticed you got Knuckles’ super ending, which has less differences between regular and super emeralds than the other ending you get as playing Sonic or Tails."
Actually, do you remember when I talked about how you can just use the level select feature to get the chaos emeralds and then skip right to the end? Well, the same thing applies here. Once you get the chaos emeralds, you can reload your save into Mushroom Valley Zone, get the Super Emeralds there, then... well, you know the rest. I figured the viewer would be able to piece together the rebuttal on their own, which is why I didn't bring it up. Not to mention that the ending isn't all that different anyway, like you said. And Hyper Sonic, well, he does have a double jump. The screen clearing thing, I never really saw the point of since you were already invincible. But hey, I guess there needed to be something to differentiate Hyper from Super, so I'll give you that one.
"I want to know your thoughts about Mania. That game lessened the cheapness of the classic formula immensely."
I don't know about immensely, but as I said, Mania's levels are more forgiving. I haven't played that in a while, so I might come back to talk about it someday; I do think it's worth me talking about.
"I also have a garbage RUclips channel where I’m still trying to get everything down. Please be prepared for some not so great content, if you check it out."
You and I both.
Well, this was fun writing. Let me leave you with this: There's a game coming out on Steam next month called Polyroll. From what I've seen so far, it looks to take inspiration from Sonic in some way. I just wanted to bring it to your attention if it's something you might... Fancy.
@@TheNegativeIon I can't seem to post my reply. It might be in your community section.
@@ergoiam7216 Huh. I don't see anything in my community tab. Try posting it in the discussion tab in my profile or sending me a PM through Steam or something so maybe I can post it here myself. I never delete other peoples comments, so I dunno what could've happened.
@@TheNegativeIon Turns out that RUclips has a character limit with comments. I’ll have to break this up.
“That may be true, but that would put you at a higher risk of getting hit and you would need to be a pretty high-level player to be able to pull it off without that happening. Hell, if you do get hit, wouldn't a better alternative be to just use those invincibility frames to sneak in a few extra hits and beat it just as quickly if not faster? Yes, while it does show how skillful you are, that wouldn't be enough to save this boss. I think what they could've done here was just flatout make him vulnerable after he drops his ball so you could hit him from underneath before he uses his magnet. That way, you're not waiting so long for him to lower or using a high-risk move with little reward.”
You can hit the boss in Carnival Night Act 2 after the orb is dropped. Eggman moves up and down, so you have to time it right and hit the part that was holding the orb. Using the insta-shield is also the fastest way to do it. I mean, using it allows one to land hit after hit, without stopping.
“That depends on what you mean by versions. Are you talking about the differences between SA1 and SA2? SA2 and SA2B? SADX for GameCube and SADX for PC? Do you mean update versions like 1.01 and 1.02 or something?”
Sorry about the confusion about the Adventure games. I had more typed out, but decided to delete it to make the comment shorter. I am mainly referring to Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast, Sonic Adventure DX for the GameCube, SADX for the PC, SADX for Xbox 360/PS3, and SADX for Steam. The Dreamcast version is considered the best graphically and in the audio department. The Dreamcast version has a better lighting engine and clearer audio, for example. Some of the other versions have some aspects to them that are better. SADX for the Gamecube has the best underwater effects, and every version of DX has a higher frame rate than the non-DX version, for example. You can check out BlazeHedgehog’s “The Definitive Way to Play Sonic Adventure”, and the website I linked for more. It should be noted that the tutorial part in Blaze’s video is outdated. Sonic Adventure 2 for the Dreamcast has better cutscenes. The audio mixing for any HD version of SA2 is just awful. Sonic Adventure 2 Battle did have some improvements, though. You can check out SPEEPSHighway’s “Why SA2B's cutscenes suck - Sonic Adventure 2”.
“I think the reason it feels weird is because of how the momentum works in this game and, honestly, I feel rather silly not mentioning this in the video. Even if you are able to react within the average .328 seconds and push the d-pad in the opposite direction, you're more than likely already traveling at too high of a speed at the time so that you take the hit anyway because your reverse momentum don't stop you quickly enough. I don't think it's something that one could easily understand from just watching someone play so maybe that's why.”
Who needs slowing down? Just keep on moving forward. Ha. Yeah, slowing down really isn’t an option. I was also stating that people who have played the trilogy and Mania, and are fans of them, would probably find your complaint odd.
“Somehow?”
I said “somehow” because I was able to react in time. Guess I’m super human or something.
“Well that's not much of a punishment, really, considering that non-stop speedy runs are something that players artificially create for themselves to put the level design and controls to better use because there's no direct incentive in these games (especially the Genesis games and Mania) to do so.”
Have you ever wanted to replay a stage in Generations after collecting all the red rings, and getting the S rank? Here is when I start to come up with a theory. I try to make the point later that non-speedy runs can come from someone who has never played the game before, well, except for moments when the game gets cheap. Having the entire experience of a Sonic game just be a blissful, speed-fueled run is a bit of a reward. You tried speedrunning, but just in Angel Island. (Did you find the speed shoes in act 1?) What’s the point in running a zone that is easy to blast through, over and over? Try Ice Cap, Launch Base, Mushroom Hill, or the entire game when you feel like revisiting Sonic 3, despite the fact I stated that you can have a speedy run, even not knowing the level in most cases. I think it might help you get Sonic down. I can’t believe I’m saying this. Yes, I guess I am basically saying that you “suck” at these games, and that’s why you don’t like them, but I think you are struggling with the game in a different way that you might think people are saying when they say you suck at the game. I also think it might explain why, the way it appears to me, it seems like to both of us that the other is talking about completely different games. I know what you are talking about, because I know what playing Sonic 2 and becoming frustrated was like. Sonic is such an odd character to control, but eventually you will be able to play with a high level of control. Unless you are already there, and I’m wrong or crazy or something…
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as I say.”
I love Sonic CD as well. 3D Blast wasn’t too bad, either. You aren’t alone in liking those certain games and stuff.
“Hell, even Mr. Anti-Sonic himself, Egoraptor, likes Sonic 3.”
Where did Egoraptor state that he liked Sonic 3?
“I just watched KingK's video and... long story short, I would just be making the same points for the most part. I also kinda cringed at how he scripted his video, but that's a story for another day. Maybe I'll watch ShayMay's video at a later time.”
I recommended those videos, though I do still highly recommend ShayMay’s video, to prove examples of other people who had similar experiences. It was to prove that I wasn’t some nut job when I stated that Sonic is something that you get. (ShayMay, in particular, when it came to the classics, even though he doesn’t really talk about them that much in the video.) The trilogy and Mania are something that is just weird to get, at first. They can give feelings of speed and fun like Generations, but it’s you that is the main one making the character go fast and it isn’t in 3D. (I do like Generations, though. Some levels in the trilogy will take some memorization in order to make them play somewhat fast. Looking at you, Metropolis.) I think the big thing to get down is the way Sonic controls. I can see where you might be coming from about KingK…
“Heavily? Like what?”
Sonic 2 rewards the top path in several ways. Typically, the bottom path is the one with the most platforming and enemies. In Aquatic Ruin, you can avoid the water entirely by staying up high. It is a bit of a struggle to stay high. It should also be noted that if you are speedrunning and know what you are doing, you won’t always take the top path. In Aquatic Ruin Act 2, the fastest way is to take the very bottom path in the water, for example. Sonic Mania also seems to reward the top path, in my experience.
“I’d say that the main first three Sonic games and Mania take a lot of skill-not skill in getting to the end but rather skill to make every level play fast, or at least somewhat speedy."
“Same with Mario, Mega Man, Crash Bandicoot, and the like. So?”
I must suck at Mega Man, then… I’m guessing you read what I typed wrong or typed something wrong yourself…. Try speedrunning Super Mario Bros, right now. It’s rather hard to go full speed without a lot of practice. The joys in that is self-improvement and the challenge. It seems like I might be describing what you think of playing Sonic games, yet, I’m not describing what I think about Sonic games. Well, if you were to speedrun Sonic, then it would be like that. I don’t need to know every route or the timings. Sure, knowing about an enemy or two would help here and there, but you can still go through the game quickly without that knowledge.
“I find that hard to believe if they can just play the Advance games the same way they do the Genesis games regardless of the screen crunch. Especially Advance 1 as that's the closest resemblance of the Genesis games in terms of playstyle. However, I can only really speak from experience with that one game. I kinda gave up early on in 2. The Egg Rocket theme is pretty bitchin', though (that's the song at 15:00 in the video).”
Advance 3 has some great tracks, as well. Sonic Advance is the one Advance game that the people that love the three classics tend to like. Most would say that the Advance games just go nuts with the unfairness, especially in certain levels. Some do find the trial and error gameplay rewarding, but quite a few don’t. What I just typed probably makes little sense to you. I think the classics try to reward players who go fast. Like, sure, there are some cheap moments, but there are sections that reward fast play. Lava Reef is an example I can think of with it’s spikes twisting around being able to hit you or not. Marble Garden also rewards you if you charge up a spin dash fast after landing in front of a breakable wall. The bumpers in Carnival Night line out pretty well to “float” through. A lot of people find the Advance games lack depth in level design and physics. In at least Advance 3, you cannot hit the top of an enemy or an item box under the right circumstances and get launched high into the sky, like you can in the three classics and Mania. I personally like Advance 3 for having chaos in the levels you need to find using the characters you have to get the good ending, which is also something that most hate it for or don’t care for. I guess I should note that Advance 3 takes place after Sonic Battle. It only really matters for the true ending, but it is interesting to see something like that in a Sonic game. It’s been done before in the series, but it isn’t something that the newer games have.
“I agree that the games need to reward the dedication of putting the time in." “Directly, no? Sonic games, no?”
I can’t tell if I misquoted you, or I’m not understanding what you mean.
“Maybe not the entire level since you'll probably still be looking for the fastest route at the time and one you do, you'll pretty much stick to that one in subsequent speedruns. Sonic Mania makes a little more sense to me since that game has much more forgiving level design in general from what I remember.”
I never have found paths that I stick with on most levels. I do know the fastest ways to beat a few of the levels, but it is still a challenge to do most. I know a spot you can jump in Chemical Plant to send yourself nearly to the end of the level, but I have never gotten it. I haven’t tried that hard, though. You also can mess up and have to take a different route than normal. Still, though, you take linear paths in Super Mario Bros… Is it still not challenging or fun? There is also the fact that maybe, sometimes, you just want to see what the other paths are like. I’m also not sure why this isn’t a complaint you have with Generations, but maybe there is something different with that title.
“...Smartass”.
A reward for getting the super emeralds during…
“Actually, do you remember when I talked about how you can just use the level select feature to get the chaos emeralds and then skip right to the end? Well, the same thing applies here. Once you get the chaos emeralds, you can reload your save into Mushroom Valley Zone, get the Super Emeralds there, then... well, you know the rest. I figured the viewer would be able to piece together the rebuttal on their own, which is why I didn't bring it up. Not to mention that the ending isn't all that different anyway, like you said. And Hyper Sonic, well, he does have a double jump. The screen clearing thing, I never really saw the point of since you were already invincible. But hey, I guess there needed to be something to differentiate Hyper from Super, so I'll give you that one.”
Anyways, I have more of a completion mindset, but I do think the closure that Sonic/Tails’ Hyper ending gives is worth it. I was pretty invested, so I can’t say it would satisfy everyone. I also like giving myself personal challenges, so I refused to get the emeralds that way. It didn’t hurt that I liked the game enough to attempt this “challenge”. (Well, I played Sonic 3 and Knuckles separately first, and I did get all seven from Angel Island the time I played Sonic 3.) I described Hyper Sonic the way I did, because I thought he was one of the coolest things I had ever seen when I got him, and I kind of still do…
“I don't know about immensely, but as I said, Mania's levels are more forgiving. I haven't played that in a while, so I might come back to talk about it someday; I do think it's worth me talking about.”
That’s odd to me. I can only remember running into one enemy that wasn’t my fault in Studiopolis the first time I played it. Nothing else frustrated me besides some of the bosses. There is nothing in Mania I have to remember to watch out for. You might be wondering about that one enemy, but it has never happened since I did it for the first time. I guess it was because the enemy was a silhouette and I wasn’t looking out for anything that was a silhouette. Now that I think about it, maybe I did get launched into spikes in zone or something. If it did happen, I just took it as a bump in the road and moved on. I played Mania a lot, so you would think I would remember something I ran into a lot… This just makes me more sure of what I said earlier. Why does it seem we are describing two different games? Could it be that I am remembering playing Sonic 2 again and being better at it wrong? I can’t be remembering the time I played Mania for the first time less than a year ago, can I?
“There's a game coming out on Steam next month called Polyroll. From what I've seen so far, it looks to take inspiration from Sonic in some way. I just wanted to bring it to your attention if it's something you might... Fancy."
I played the demo for Polyroll “at” the Sonic Amateur Gaming Expo. (SAGE) It’s a website that typically goes up around summer/fall. It’s run by Sonic fans, and it is a place for people to show off their fan game/any other projects. SAGE has even been able to interview all sorts of people who have voiced Sonic characters, worked on Sonic comics, and even people who have worked on Sonic games themselves. Polyroll seemed kind of meh to me, but I’m not sure if I finished the demo. Maybe the stages will get more interesting later in the game. I’ll have to see what people say about the game.
I know what I have said is a bit strange. I might have come off as some crazy Sonic fan, but I hope what I said makes some sense. I would like to address that this was a defense of 1, 2, and 3. More 2 and 3 than 1, but whatever.
I think that it’s possible that many fans just don’t remember how hard certain games are to get into. Maybe I’m wrong about all this. Maybe if I’m right, you still won’t be able to find the fun in these games. Don’t get too down about the reaction to the video. I’m frustrated with all those who just assumed the contents of the video due to “certain” other videos, but I’m not sure if I could blame them with the first impressions of the video. The video wasn’t bad. I’d say it was good. Keep on going. You can’t improve if you don’t fail and stuff, despite the fact that I don’t think you failed.
Okay, I actually watched the entire thing, and really enjoyed it. Your editing was really well-done (especially loved the Mega Man stage select bit), and it's clear that you've dedicated a great deal of time and effort to thinking critically about the subject. And despite being a lifelong fan who _does_ consider Sonic 3 his favorite game of all time, I never once felt like you were trying to claim that those who disagree with you were "having fun wrong." (Well aside from that one part where you put a fire effect over the screen and said that a game rewarding replays is "retarded." That was pushing it.)
But I'm sure that was intentional hyperbole, and the point stands! I really appreciated how clear you made it from the start that this was you laying out YOUR problems with Sonic games, and not trying to claim that NOBODY ELSE should like Sonic games. And really, it's perfectly okay if you don't have any fun with these titles, and I'm not gonna tell you you're WRONG, either. Everyone has different preferences. I can't stand turn-based strategy games for the most part, and my solution to that would be to make them less complicated, faster-paced, and more reliant on twitchy action. In other words, I'd ruin what fans of the genre actually like about it, haha.
More to the point, I think you're onto something with the idea that Sonic games, especially the more recent ones, could go a long way to incentivising replays if they actually _did_ directly reward you for speeding through a stage skillfully. You see, back in the OLDEN DAYS, prior to even Sonic 3's save system, the reward for getting better at Emerald Hill, Chemical Plant, Aquatic Ruin, and Casino Night was that you'd get to take another crack at Mystic Cave that much faster! With no save system, and as a kid who had infinite free time and two video games, me getting better at Sonic 2 was something that happened inherently. The fact that games since the advent of 3D have, more and more, STOPPED incentivising and rewarding replayability, and that modern gamers are so unaccustomed to it and, in fact, frustrated BY it, is one of the biggest reasons that classic Sonic titles have the reputation they do in some circles - that of "never being good to begin with." The industry has a very different mindset to this stuff, now.
"Your editing was really well-done (especially loved the Mega Man stage select bit)"
Meh, I suppose for someone who's never edited like this before, I guess it was okay. The Mega Man part probably took the most time doing (second to the World Saving segment). I drew that blinking frame myself. I tried to keep the shadowing consistent with the rest of the image. But because it's a very basic pixel edit, I guess that's not really anything to write home about.
"aside from that one part where you put a fire effect over the screen and said that a game rewarding replays is "retarded." That was pushing it. But I'm sure that was intentional hyperbole, and the point stands!"
I don't recall saying that. I said later on that I was okay with games rewarding replays. I was addressing the argument that you have to replay Sonic games to enjoy them, which kinda suggests to me that it's the ONLY way to, which I don't want to believe is true.
But let's assume you made a mistake in wording that. The point I was trying to get across in that segment was that you can delude yourself into liking any game at all if you play it enough times, which is why I showed clips from games like Superman 64 and Drake of the 99 Dragons. This is partly why I presented it in the way I did there, because you can apply that argument to virtually any game in existence. (I mean look at all the people who like Sonic '06.) I had hoped that people would figure out that I wasn't actually being that overly passionate about debunking the claim; that it was all part of an act for entertainment purposes, but I guess that's not what happened, huh?
"I really appreciated how clear you made it from the start that this was you laying out YOUR problems with Sonic games, and not trying to claim that NOBODY ELSE should like Sonic games."
You're referring to the title and not just 6:20, right? I worded it like that for that very reason. In an online world where exaggerating an opinion in the titles and thumbnails with all caps on key words as objective statements rules all, I knew that going with the title that I did wasn't going to get it very far. But that wasn't what I was going for. I was thinking of a simple sentence that I thought would best reflect my beliefs. When the first things you see when looking for a video on RUclips are the title, thumbnail, and watch time, I tried to get the message across that this was just an opinion piece (title) while simultaneously leaving room for interpretation (thumbnail) with a decent amount of information (watch time) to take into consideration. Call me an extremist, but objective quality isn't something I believe in. It's easy for the line between objectivity (Sonic 3 is good) and subjectivity (I like Sonic 3) to be blurred with such a simple sentence and people can take advantage of that to get ahead (Lookin' at you, MatPat.) But what really worries me is that sometimes, it's not entirely clear if something really is an opinion or a fact. For example...
"And really, it's perfectly okay if you don't have any fun with these titles, and I'm not gonna tell you you're WRONG, either."
Sure, YOU'RE not gonna tell me I'm wrong; Sure, it's perfectly okay for YOU... but is that actually the correct belief to have? Is that a fact? As a guy who prioritizes controls, level design, and just gameplay in general over all the cosmetic stuff like spectacle and story, the number of times I've seen someone stating that something like Knuckles Chaotix is objectively bad or that Sonic 3 is objectively good gives me the impression that there is something more to beauty than it just being in the eye of the beholder and that they're not just saying that as a cheap way to shut down opposing viewpoints. So is the way I prioritize what I look for in a game for my own personal enjoyment actually the wrong way to have fun? Is it really just an opinion? Do you think it's okay to dislike Sonic games? Or do you know so?
...Holy shit, that went deep. And I don't even smoke.
"The industry has a very different mindset to this stuff, now."
Are you referring to the AAA market? (God of War 4, Uncharted, etc..) On that front, I agree. It's unfortunate that because gaming has become as big as it is now, the mainstream media is treating video games as just a more complicated way to watch TV. I mean have you seen how the awards were prioritized at The Game Awards 2018? Seriously? Best Performance over Best Action Game? Best Narrative over Best RPG? Best Game Direction... what the hell does that even mean? How does Red Dead Redemption 2 win every single goddamn award under the sun... EXCEPT the one it actually came to win!? Not to mention the show aired before the year actually ended. Hell, even just mere HOURS before Super Smash Bros. Ultimate was released!
But hey, look on the bright side: At least you and I still exist. We, who grew up in a time when our minds were constantly being blown with Sonic, Mega Man, Donkey Kong Country, etc., remember the days when video games were less about art and more about... well, video games. It was a more experimental time back then, but I guess now the formula has been discovered and is constantly being put into practice. We just choose to distance ourselves from it and stick to what WE enjoy the most. We may not be the majority... but maybe that's for the best.
so what you are saying is that in the past people had like 1 game and had no sense of quality and played it to death and then it was deemed good when in reality is is mediocer to almost bad at worst
@@nonameavailable7383 well its honest
There are still games today that prioritize gameplay over cinematic flair. Just look at the indie scene, look at Nintendo, look at Capcom’s recent games, look at Platinum Games.
"I fear no fandom, but that thing"
_pan to the Sonic Fandom_
"That fuckin scares me."
dose it to the best of us
Not all of it is bad but the majority is a hell
good presentation and a well rounded argument.
This is WAY better than that BS projared made
This person needs more views
Me too.i hate him for saying I am too slow.
It's interesting to look at Sonic 3K from a more universal point of view.
Edit: What the fuck was I thinking when writing this? Anyways, nice vid.
Despite Sonic 3K being one of my favorite platformers hands down, I really liked your analysis. It was interesting to get a less biased and forgiving prospective than mine.
while i don't share the same option has you when it comes to this, i do respect it and hope it gets more views. you've gotten yourself a subscriber my friend.
What's the song used at this little part 12:15? It's a tiny segment, but I feel like I have to listen to this lol
"Free" from Sonic Free Riders. It's one of my favorites.
I love this video omg. Literally 2D sonic would be improved if you could zoom out the camera, pan the camera, and if it had control like Spark 1 or Sonic 1 master system.
I'm glad I found this; I have felt the same way but I keep giving sonic games a shot and I even finished some when I was younger. I actually like replaying games to improve my score (I used to speedrun Resident Evil games) but the games need to be fun to begin with. However, sonic games always punish me for going fast so I just end up super bored.
Thank you for making this video; I was feeling like I was missing something obvious, but going through the comments I find most people like the gameplay because they liked replaying it until they got good or/and they wanted to explore the levels. I like doing those things in games too, but for me there are much better games to do this in, e.g. "Contra" for replaying, "Metroid" for exploring or "Yoshi's Island" for both.
Man I just watched this again after you told me and it’s actually crazy how much people got angry at you having having an opinion. People over react.
I know right?
Angry at the opinion or the dumb straw man arguments?
Really great video, thanks for making it.
When did you start editing it? Small potatoes, but I wish you could've used the full-sized maps I made back in October, during the bit about the zoomed-out camera: info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3_%26_Knuckles_level_maps
And yes, for the record, scaling everything dynamically like that would be far beyond the capabilities of the Mega Drive.
Aw, damn! I'm so sorry, man. Had I known that there were updated maps on SonicRetro, I would've definitely used those instead. Man, Those would've driven my point home really well. It's just that I had that one map on my hard drive long before October and once I got all the images I needed from the site, I just kinda forgot about it. They look so beautiful; props to you.
Anyway, I honest to god don't remember when I started editing the video. I think it might've been back in July. However, I actually edited the audio completely separately from the video itself. Y'know, multiple takes, splicing them together, adding the background music, etc.. I think that only took about 2 or 3 weeks since I've already had extensive experience with audio editing. As far as the script goes... jeez.
"And yes, for the record, scaling everything dynamically like that would be far beyond the capabilities of the Mega Drive."
Yep, that's what I figured. Welp, time for plan Beta, then, huh?
I agree, within sonic games you can't react. I remember suggesting an idea for a 2.5D sonic game where you could slightly adjust the camera to look slightly forward or any direction you want. I got blasted to hell with negativity on the forum I was at. It would have been utilized like sonic colors planet wisp act 5 where the camera points where is best for sonic like when he is skydiving despite technically being 2D gameplay. Again blasted with negativity for this idea.
addressing how to build a sonic game for you I feel like a guy like you would enjoy a game where sonic has abilities to quickly correct issues/mistakes that are hard to react to. I liked sonic rush adventure a lot. The extra screen and trick system allow bad reaction time to be corrected. if you miss a path/item/or enemy boost back toward its or use the trick system. I think the level design should have a clear way to return to saftey when throws stuff at you that can be reacted to. I feel like a throw into the wild and survive style of gameplay would help the poor design of needing to memorize.
also, do you like sonic lost world 3ds?
To answer that last question, even though I'm not Ion, yes, I do, kind of. The game is really interesting with all of the features. I had a lot of fun with the open 3D acts. The game does have its flaws, for sure, but I think it's a fun time.
31:14 You do know that Super Mario Bros. Deluxe on GameBoy Color exists, Right?
Yeah, I do. But at least that game tried to mitigate the problem by panning the camera forwards (Too bad it didn't do anything to help with vertical visuals aside from scrolling upwards when jumping on blocks). In the example I showed, Mario is in the center of the screen, much like Sonic, and it wouldn't leave the player enough of the level to observe to make reasonable decisions without running out the clock. That was the point I was trying to get across.
Well, it is nice to see someone talk about thier opinion without saying "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG, GET OVER IT."
Isn't it weird how that's even considered a breath of fresh air? For the longest time, there's been this common belief that anyone who doesn't like Sonic games simply doesn't have a good reason to no matter what said reason is. By default, we're closed-minded bigots who refuse to see the so-called "magic" of the franchise regardless if we do or try and don't deserve to be taken seriously. This kind of mindset is not just tolerated, it's encouraged.
So even if I wanted to, I can't say "I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG, GET OVER IT" because the truth is that it's really the other way around. I just wish I could ask someone why.
Dude. You brought an absolute storm upon yourselfe
I Thought I Like Those Games
But I Thought I Did
You Went Full Dark Bro xD
I kind of have the opposite, I enjoy the normal gameplay but I absolutely hate the special stages and going for the true ending
Sonic fans do usually think the same about this.
I need to stop seeing sonic
29:04 basically you want a Sonic game to be so easy there is no challenges Infront of you
The challenges are still techinically in front of you. But, at least you can see them before you want to beat them.
Thats stupid af thats not how a level should be created for Sonic
Sonic levels are about going fast while also going for extra challenges seeing everything infront of you removes the challenge
I can feel his disappointment.
He's been on a long painful journey. It's not him telling you to hate sonic.... it's a sad tale about how his enjoyment has dulled and dimmed.
Unfortunately, I can't answer that last question for you.
You're not doing it wrong at all.
I went through a phase like that with mega man a few years ago....I loved Mega Man to death and I still do but sadly a day came when I no longer had the strength or interest to play these games anymore.
It's the moment when you realize that all that glitters is not golden.
It's not easy for me to stand alone against the ridicule of others, especially when you're so significantly outnumbered. For 30 years and counting, not a single non-Sonic fan has ever been able to come forth and present a reasonable case as to why they hold the opinion that they do. And because people have gotten so used to hearing generic explanations as "you go too fast" or "all you do is hold right" and giving the same generic rebuttals as "just replay it" or "hold down to roll", it's practically become a common practice to invalidate anyone's opinion on Sonic games without even giving them the time of day to elaborate. That's why this video is as long as it is. I needed to make an effort to go in depth and addressing as many common arguments as I could find because no one else would.
And yet, it was all for naught...
I tried to do exactly what everyone said to do to change my mind. I played the games multiple times, I took many different routes, I speedran a couple of levels, I played as every character available, I held Down to roll, etc.. I forced myself to do it all... and nothing changed. And despite giving these games more chances than I can count on two hands, my reasons STILL don't matter because I somehow STILL didn't do something right according to the majority.
Why should I have to feel like an idiot for having one of the most controversial (if not incorrect) opinions in the gaming medium? If it really is okay to dislike Sonic games, then why can't a good reason to exist? Why is it fair to just brush off my 1.5-year work as just a self-loathing pity party for nothing more than empty sympathy? How many chances do I have to give? Why can't I ask questions? Why don't I deserve answers? Why? Just... why?
@@TheNegativeIon try not to overthink it. It's good that you got this off of your chest.
I disagree with the whole idea of you have to like S3&K to like every sonic game, if you were to ask a sonic fan what their favorite sonic game is you'd probably get a variety of answers, some may like the exploration of CD, some may like the high speed of 2, some may like the traditional platforming in 1, some may like the boost that we have nowadays, my point is that Sonic can mean many different things to different fans of the series, you may not find enjoyment in S3&K but you might find some enjoyment in another sonic game is what I'm trying to say
I disagree with what you said. The amount of people that hop on the S3&K bandwagon is ludicrous.
Mad Gear Act 1 is a banger
I decided to watch your entire video. I'll be honest, all of your points seemed valid. In fact it's interesting that you liked the Sonic games that most seem to hate. I can't explain why you don't like the game, but I can try to explain why I like the game. Some reasons I like it may be for the exact reasons you dislike it however.
Replaying these games is the main reason I love them, I can try to get better with each individual play-through, and flow through the stage with less and less mistakes. I can try to go down different routes and see what they hold, whether it's a giant ring, extra life, rings, or a shield. When I played this game as a kid, I was really bad at it, so all those extra pickups (even more so in 1 and 2) made exploring the stages fun. I would go around and get as many extra lives as I could, because I knew I would need them towards the end of the game (again more so 1 and 2, since 3 had a save system). But even then, there were stages I had difficulty clearing in 3 and knuckles, it took quite awhile before I could actually finish the game, in fact many times I'd just end up starting over from the beginning again like I had with Sonic 2.
Would I like these games starting now as an adult, assuming I never played them? I have no idea, maybe I wouldn't, I don't have as much time to replay a game over and over again nowadays. However, I grew up on these games, and maybe nostalgia combined with the high presentation value these games hold is why I come back to them today. I certainly did have times where I got frustrated playing them as a kid (especially from crushing hazards), but at the same time I had a blast running through the zones and I still do today. It has flaws, but I can't help but love the game, it's still just so exciting for me to play through.
On the flip side, as much as I love Super Mario Bros, that game can still frustrate me to this day, mainly because of the slippery controls, which at times I did feel were just straight up unfair. Anyways, I doubt this will sway your opinion in either direction, but perhaps this game just isn't for you. But that's okay, you don't need to like it, not every game is designed to please every person, it's completely fine if you don't like this game (and do like other games people tend to not like). Some seem to go around hating games just because it's popular to do so, but you have brought up plenty of legitimate opinions on why you personally do not like this game. I can respect that.
Lastly, good job on the video, I can tell that you put a lot of care and effort into it, even knowing that a lot of people likely won't see it (I'm sure only a small fraction of the users who found this video on Sonic Retro actually watched the whole thing, and only responded to your opening post). I'm actually a bit curious of what you think of the post-genesis games like Sonic Adventure, since I feel that game doesn't really share this game's issues (but has a whole load of its own). Sorry about the large wall of text, but after watching the whole video I couldn't help, but write down my thoughts.
Do you hate that hedgehog like eggman/robotnik
Well this video just seems to me that your just one of those people that just can’t really get into sonic. Not trying to say that’s wrong or anything in fact I can see where your coming from when you talked about this video. But it’s clear that the point of most sonic games (That being that the more you replay it the more better and faster you’ll be at it) is just not for you. Although I do think there is bright side to this though. In the video You only really talked about Sonic 3. If you ask me that is not a good way of judging the whole sonic series. Sure most of us sonic fans do consider Sonic 3 the best sonic game. But I don’t think that judging this one game should affect your opinion on most sonic games. Because from watching the video and seeing what you want and don’t want in a sonic game. It’s clear that there are some sonic games out there that is right up your alley. I think giving them a chance will get you to hopefully like sonic again.
"Not trying to say that’s wrong or anything"
Well, if the 40% dislikes are an accurate reflection of the factual quality of the video, maybe it actually is.
I used Sonic 3 as the basis of my discontent with the franchise as a whole not just because it's supposedly the best one of all time, but also because it's the one game that does everything that a Sonic game is supposed to do right. They say that it's factually the perfect blend of the Sonic trifecta that no other has ever been able to pull off and, ergo, the one game that every Sonic game should strive to be/compete with. Coincidentally, this one game had all of the issues that I had with 2D Sonic games in general that are present in most other titles, making it the most convenient one to return to. I will admit, however, that maybe using a 2D game to talk about the 3D ones was unfair. I say maybe because I haven't played Adventure/Heroes/etc. in a while so some of the issues I stated about the 2D games may or may not apply. I do plan on changing that in the future.
Anyway, most of the Sonic games that I do like are either... *ahem* "SPIN"-offs or don't even really revolve around speed as much as platforming and/or exploration, which is why the Sonic community doesn't consider titles like CD and 3D Blast to be mainline entries (Otherwise, they would've been on the elevator in Mania's intro video). But it's not that I don't like going fast in a game; Of course I would like to be able to replay a level just to get a faster time or, in my case, a higher rank. But whether I'm playing, say, Lava Reef Zone for the first time or the tenth time, it always feels like I just have to know the level like the back of my hand because of the low visual limitations, which is why I see the whole "Sonic games are meant to be replayed" thing as an excuse, even though I'm sure it isn't.
My idea of fast-paced done right is not a game where you just run at a high speed. It's actually supplying the player with enough information in an appropriate amount of time in steady but constant bursts so that they don't feel cheated when they make a bad move. The reason for my main problem with Sonic games is not that Sonic runs to fast or that the sprites are too big. It's because the game doesn't supply me with enough screen space to observe much of the level at once for me to make many rational decisions, especially when working with Sonic's heavier physics compared to Mario. If that issue alone was resolved, that would make a world of difference. I have more confidence in saying that since I've now experienced something like it...
Recently, I played a PoC rom hack called Sonic 1: Dick Move Prevention Edition. All it does is make everything smaller as if the camera was zoomed back, but because of that, I now have more of the level in view to more appropriately plan my next move based on my observations without having to rely on luck. I even found other paths that I probably wouldn't have known existed without it. I can easily say that putting this idea alone into the currently existing 2D titles can improve my opinion of the franchise from "dislike" status to at the very least "tolerable". Maybe not in the form of a rom hack, though; I'm sure it took MarkeyJester a long-ass time just to mod GHZ alone. Maybe as its own executable program kinda like Sonic 3 A.I.R. or Sonic Advance Revamped. If there ever comes a time where taxman finally remakes Sonic 3 for modern consoles (30th Anniversary, maybe?), I would love to see this implemented in some way.
well if you cant enjoy the games on your first run because they are bullshit because you cant see it comeing
Hey feels the rabbit I have a profile pic just like you do.
I don't think that's how the game was intended to be played, that's just how some people like playing.
I never liked a single sonic game. They all feel so soulless and even the games themselves performs badly, it's like the only thing sonic games want is to look appealing to teenagers. There's nothing more deep to it. An empty shell sprayed with radical graffiti, that's Sonic the hedgehog.
I didn't get your 1st 2 complaints. "Soulless". "Performs badly". What do you mean by those? Please explain.
Blast Procesing-Sega's biggest lie.
What about the adventure era, what don't you like about those games
I plan on going more in-depth about the Adventure games at a later date, but I can give you a cliff-notes version here. Some issues I have with the Adventure games as a whole are that the controls feel wonky, the camera would sometimes get caught behind objects and scenery, and overall, they just don't feel very rewarding to play though. Of course these issues weren't so egregious that I got frustrated to no end... most of the time. It really just depends on the level.
Adventure 1 was almost okay, but not quite bad. I remember that it was hard to navigate Knuckles' stages. I didn't get lost or anything, it was just trying to figure out how to get to certain places. Amy's were mediocre, Big's were boring, and Gamma's were... okay, I guess?
Adventure 2, however, might've been worse if I'm being honest with you. The treasure-hunting stages are much more tedious, the stages are much too large and maze-like, The radar only allows you to look for one emerald at a time, it only has four fixed levels of sensitivity, and the clues are virtually useless to anyone who aren't familiar with the level layouts. As for the mech-shooting levels, the controls feel very clunky and there were a couple of levels that really gave me a hard time.
I wouldn't be so quick to say the Adventure games are bad, though. They're just not as good as I remember them to be. The Sonic/Shadow levels, I don't even really remember much. I'm gonna go back and play them again sometime in the future to form a more solid opinion.
Also, I guess if you wanna count it, I haven't played Sonic Heroes in a long time, but I do remember a lot of the levels overstaying their welcome, especially as Team Dark. I remember dying a lot in that game, too.
@@TheNegativeIon gonna disagree with you with that, I think sonic adventure 2 is a lot better than sa 1. Though I would like to see your thoughts on the series some other time also I already subscribe to your channel so yeah
The Adventure Games are the best in the series & generally the Treasure Hunters have the best controls thanks to the ability to climb & glide around. Sonic controlled best in the Adventure Games, fluid movement that you feel in full control of, opposed to drifting about & having poor steering like the 3D Boost Formula games. SA2 Mechs may have poor controls, although at least the shooting feels good.
@@WaterKirby1994 I'll admit that the Adventure titles were at the very least tolerable. I do like how Knuckles (and Rouge by extension) controls too, but the way that his levels were designed can make them rather difficult to navigate a lot of times. I agree somewhat with everything else.
@@TheNegativeIon You can get around easily in Treasure Hunting stages if you know how to. They also aren't that difficult to navigate usually. You can also practice Meteor Herd, Pumpkin Hill, & Security Hall through 2P Battle mode if you want.
Death Chamber is the only Treasure Hunting stage that's a pain to get around in without glitching out of bounds. The maps of most treasure hunting stages are quite memorable once you learn them through exploration.
take a step every time he says the word sonic.
You probably need to play Sonic after a few drinks. Lol.
Yeah, maybe that's what it takes, huh? Too bad I don't drink.
I don't like the older sonic games because their too hard for me however I do like sonic 2 and sonic 3 and knuckles story especially how each later game after sonic 1 grew more and more of a story and plot.and the time travel good future and bad future aspects in sonic cd are intersting sonic cd is the sonic game I've gotten farthest in and have gotten through easiest but I haven't even beat that 1.so what I'm saying about the older sonic games is I dislike most of the games except cd which is pretty fun for me because their too annoying hard for me to beat to enjoy them but I like sonic 2 and 3s storys and the plot of cd is kinda intersting because of the time travel good future bad future metal sonic Amy rose the level designs are creative and intersting looking and the music is also intersting.easyness in games is too underrated.
I never understood why Sonic fans think hating Sonic is not an unpopular opinion, especially since Sonic praise is everywhere (I've even found a Mario vs Sonic poll that will MURDER you if you pick Mario) and you never usually see stuff like this on Sonic, but plenty of others like this with other games.
My opinion on Sonic myself? Well, overtime, I began to gradually dislike not only the series itself, but the character too. I think his character is annoying, too introverted, and just... well, repulsive. And that applies to EVERY iteration of Sonic, not just that 2010s Sonic people seem to use as the poster boy for such. I don't find his games to be anything special either. They're too shallow and/or frustrating to be had fun with and pale compare to MANY other SEGA franchises, like Phantasy Star (barring that godawful 2nd game), Shinobi, Streets of Rage, etc.
Even more controversial: I think the same can be said about the music too, especially his Mega Drive outings. (You cannot tell me that Sonic 3 has a better soundtrack than Streets of Rage 2, Gauntlet 4 (Atari game, but this is more about MD music in general this time), and Alien Soldier.) Even his more modern outings have been easily outdone by most other composers IMO with too many games to count.
@@solarflare9078 I definitely agree on Sonic as a character.
What is so special about him that makes people think he is better than anyone else.
Oh wow solar flare is here
@@Gabriel-zy7ee he doesnt. Sonic being a punk is part of his character, but at the end of the day i still think he cares about people when he needs to.
Personally i find sonic being a punk more unique and endeering than a character being straight-heroic the whole time. Its nice for characters to have flaws to them if you write them well enough
@@Gabriel-zy7ee i could definitely send you better examples of sonics behavior if you want
Im gonna try to be honest on my point of view for liking these games.
The main issue you have you clear, youre frustraded from how the level designs and enemy placement are unfair and against the idea of playing faster as you can without replaying it. But for me... thats the point that makes the games fun. The fact that YOU DONT KNOW.
Not trying to say youre wrong for not liking it, neither Im saying Im right, its clearly a opinion and its ok.
But of course the major part of making the game fun is... really about looks and skeptical. The first playtrough is about the unknow and getting surprise. When I take a hit I dont get pissed, I get surprised like "wow that enemy looks cool" or related. Sure this always doesnt happen, playing Sonic Advance 2 for the first time was pure nightmare and I hated that game until I replayed over and over. The thing is that you need to make a balance from when obstacle and enemy placement is fair and when isn't. The lava pit from Lava Reef is pure base luck if you dont get hit or not.
Maybe why this works for me is because getting hit is inevitable and not a big deal because how the Rings system works. You can finish the game with 1 ring and thats it, but the fun is trying to get as many as you can, until you start getting into the 100 and in the end getting a bigger score. Does the score rewards you? No, but I feel satisfied with each single big score and I dont need unlock things for it. And loosing rings is not a big deal also since theres hundreds of them in the game. The only thing I 100% agree with this video is how the zones dont let you go backwards for exploration, that is frustating (specially if you play Sonic Advance 2, where the main focus is getting fast).
Also again with Adv2, I exactly see what you feel when I played that game for the first time, frustation and hate, but I never felt like this when playing other games, because Adv 2 in terms of music and how each zone starts, the main focus is getting as fast as you can with no stop, and this makes your anxiety at maximum, making every hit a frustation. Maybe... when playing the games at first time, you dont need to go as fast as you can, but enjoy the game and smart ideas of art design. The replaying a level is for getting as fast as you can, but if you dont care about scores then you wont like it, and thats ok its your taste.
Sure this can be fixed in future games, but tbh the Boost gameplay kinda fixes that, because even if you dont expect whats ahead of you, usually youre invincible and will turn ok. This should be better developed tho.
You dont make a connection between skeptical and gameplay, thats ok, but I do. I could play a fun and well level designed game where there's only a dot jumping into other dots trying to avoid circles. Yeah it would be fun but it wouldnt be good because theres bassicly nothing there to get invested.
I belive this is something from you, and I hope you find a way to like these games. But the reasons why you dont like it are the reasons I do and probably a lot of people. It is weird? Idk maybe, but it is wrong? Nope.
And I see you are a man with good taste, since I also love Free Riders and 3D Blast
People say Mario is repetitive(well besides new super Mario. Those games are pretty repetitive. I CAN AGREE WITH THAT),but sonic is clearly the same boost games over and over. Mario tried something new with fludd in sunshine,galaxy has gravity,3D land/world had a mash of 2D and 3D,and odyssey tried something with cappy. Nowadays Sonic is just the daytime stages from unleashed or an adventure type game. So if anyone is repetitive,it’s sonic
Sonic can't change he'll stuck in the same speed gimmick levels it's sad I used to love sonic but now it's time to move on
nah Mario is repetitive as fuck
@@davil.5608really? Sorry but sonic is just spin dash here spin dash that boost here boost that linear path loop to loop etc is that not repetitive? Pls give me reason why sonic not repetitive
@@kerozine819 I wont argue about your points but at least Sonic has unique songs and tiles for each stage. Also personality. Holy shit are Kario stages LAMEEEEE
@@davil.5608 mario songs are also unique and also the story too if you pay more attention into it, when it comes to characters mario also has unique characters and the comedy between characters also there without even saying anything, I'd take mario funny moments over cringy sonic lines like baldy mcnosehair but hey that's just my opinion
Me too i hate sonic because he kept beating mario BECAUSE MARIO WILL BE THE MOST TORNADING BEST CHARACTER BUT NOW EVERYONE HATED HIM NOW IM GONNA GET ANGRYER FOR THAT AND YEAH THIS IS A TORNADING STRAW
I do like Sonic because he always be faster than people so I don't like him anymore and sometime he said that you cannot catch me
Same, I think the 2d sonic games are just a mess and that's why I like 3d sonic games more but only just the concept cuz not all the 3d ones are great to me
I almost fainted due to how boring sonic forces is
You should see this: ruclips.net/video/i3ita2iRKPg/видео.html
Eggman have depression
sega always tended to have a more arcade mindset then nintnedo did. when they made sonic one they pretty much desighend the game so you had to keep replaying green hill countlesss times so you got better at the game.
this became an issue beacuse this is still the way sonic is played to this day even in 3d where sonic's speed seems more like a cruch then it was when he was first created.
unlike mario where he is so simple he can pretty much do anything whitch is why he works so well in spinoffs.
you can't say the same thing about sonic as his speed is the only thing that makes him what he is so sega has to add more gimmicks to the gameplay. and this is why his 3d games tend to have alot more issues.
I don't think you should take S3&K as the only example of all of the Sonic games existing. You seem to have enjoyed a lot free riders, a game with very unresponsive controls, if i'm aware. But if you want to have fun your first playthrough, play some Sonic Generations, Sonic adventure, hell, even Sonic unleashed for the wii. Sonic games that are meant to be replayed are my favourite. And honestly, I don't consider S3&K to be one of them. Sonic Unleashed, or most of classic Sonic games are this type of game. Sonic was inspired by Mario, but it's different in the end if we talk about the difficulty. It's like a "try and retry" type of game.
Sonic Unleashed is extremely rewarding when you get an S rank. It's one ofnthe reason why I love this game so much. But there's no way that you would get one first try, that's why you gotta play these levels and improving your skills, and memorising the level.
Me too
I understand your argument but i think that your meant to go slow in your first few runs to memorize the level layout
Which argument? I made several. And memorize them for what, exactly? It can't just be for speedruns.
@@TheNegativeIon all of them, and also the reason to get better is to have more fun
@@michaelmenna9039 I see. Was there anything in the video that you disagree with? Even distantly?
@@TheNegativeIon the issue you stated in visibility isn't an issue in the 3d games
@@michaelmenna9039 I got good at Sonic CD, hated it more than me struggling to beat it.
So you don't like sonic games because your bad at them..... Understandable.
Why do you believe that is an accurate summarization?
@@TheNegativeIon I don't, I just said it because I thought it was funny and to be sarcastic. It's perfectly understandable if sonic games just aren't your thing but you make it sound like as if theres a problem with the games and that they need to be fixed so that you can like it
@@labronthesuperninjayasin2203 I see. The reason I asked was because there are many people who legitimately believe that and I wanted to understand why. And because text is limited when it comes to accurately expressing emotions and sincerity, one could easily misinterpret a comment with sarcastic intent as being serious.
Now as far as my opinion goes, I've given several reasons as to why I have the opinion that I do and went into detail on each of them. Despite that, it's easy to simply tie them to just being bad at the games and calling it a day. Do you believe that any of those reasons are valid? Is there something that you need me to explain further?
@@TheNegativeIon no I'm good
2102.i agree you don't have to replay a game to like it and when you were like just keep playing it untill you get better and stop complaining and you were being sarcastic I was laughing😂.
I agree wholeheartedly. While I like Sonic as a character, his games have never been really fun for the same reasons you've mentioned. The games don't feel like they revolve around "going fast". Instead, they feel like they revolve around trial and error.
You shouldn't have to replay a video game in order to enjoy it to its fullest. Your first playthrough should be just as fun as your replays.
Yup I was a sonic fan before but now I just don't like it anymore and I still don't understand how the fans still enjoying these games even crash 123 way better than all sonic games in my opinion
Then why is Dark souls gets this unbelievable praise for doing exactly that? The game has A LOT of trial and error and cheap deaths. Much more than classic sonic games.
Why is it that one game doing it is a bad thing, but then another game does the same thing and it's the second coming of Jesus for video games? And no, it's not execution, because "cheap deaths" can't exactly be executed much more different. Trial and error don't get much variation either. I'd say you have to "try" much less in Sonic games.
@@ufazig because dark souls was meant to be like that. The difference is sonic games from the start of the game to the end need memorization and when you want to play safe you need to go slow which is annoying to do that's why sonic fans didn't like sonic 1 that much
@@ufazig not only memorization you need to acquire the level design in sonic games are a problem too
@@ufazig I haven't played Dark Souls. if that's the case, then I probably wouldn't enjoy that either.
Sonic riders zero gravity is the only sonic game I ever liked. I even tried sonic mania and When playing it I literally ask myself how do I play this? Is this the gameplay? I find myself liking the idea of sonic games but I can’t bring myself to play actually play them.
Heh, funny. Zero Gravity is the one game in the Riders trilogy that I couldn't get into.
Sonic Mania has more forgiving level design than its Genesis counterparts, but yeah, it can be difficult to really appreciate it when the game sacrifices screen space and ergo field of vision for spectator eyecandy. It's entirely possible to have proper amounts of both and the UFO Chase special stages are proof.
Dude the gameplay you show...
Is painful
Which parts? Im curious?
I love Sonic, but this was a great video!
The following comment past "Read More" is by Laura from SonicRetro. She seems like a very nice and forgiving person and was one of the few who gave me the benefit of the doubt when I went and introduced myself in one of the worst ways possible on that site. Thanks for that, Laura.
Anyway, here is her comment verbatim:
Just watched the video properly. I think it was really good, I've given you a like. Some points of critique:
- I think your video's introduction could have been more concise. It's not until nearly 8 minutes in until you actually start addressing problems with the game. It's not until the 15 minute mark until you really get going.
- I disagree with the elemental shields. I think it's pretty neat the way you can break the game with them if you know what you are doing, which is part of the reason I like Mario World's cape. However, I would admit that it's stupid when the game gives you a shield which breaks a boss so shortly before it happens (although I always interpreted Lava Reef 3 as a difficult item to get before the boss starts - although whether that's actually true is debatable).
- I agree that the final boss is pretty bad, I find the atmosphere is what saves it. I actually agree that the Mecha Sonic boss is the best boss.
- Now, for your criticisms of the gameplay. I agree that the classics are let down by a lack of screen space, and I believe Mania and the mobile remasters are greatly enhanced by widescreen. I agree with you that looking up and down is badly implemented.
- I disagree with the skill aspect of Sonic, because I always interpreted people's claims that 'Sonic rewards skill' as 'Sonic rewards skilful use of momentum by letting you complete stages quicker and giving you mastery of the level' rather than 'Sonic rewards skill by letting you play an already simple game formula better, ie jumping on badniks'.
- On the replay value, which is where I most strongly disagree with you, it's not that you *have* to replay the stages to enjoy them. For example, I really enjoyed Mania the first time I played it and had no idea what to expect. It was intuitive and enjoyable first time around, and with Mania I had an actual adult experience of playing a Sonic game blind, rather than trying to remember my childhood experience which will obviously always be inaccurate. It's more that the game has so much depth with it's moveset mechanics and alternate paths that replaying the stages allows you to experience the game in different ways and let you feel a sense of accomplishment when you can dominate the level and get through it very quickly. I wouldn't say this is a mandatory aspect of Sonic, but I would say its enjoyable. I would actually compare it to action games such as Devil May Cry 3 which have a similar approach to replay and mastery. I agree that trial and error is atrocious, and I feel that Sonic usually strays away from this.
Now for the second half of the video:
- I agree that trial and error shouldn't be in the game, but I think in the best Sonic games it's usually not an issue. While badniks can be unfairly placed, especially in games like CD, they usually don't kill you. I know that's not a perfect defence, but it's not as aggravating to cause a game over. In fact, I only think that Chemical Plant 2 and Titanic Monarch commit cardinal sins in this area with their unseeable crushing traps in Sonic Mania.
- I agree with you that camera controls would be a great option! I'm actually somewhat stunned that I've never heard anyone suggest this before. I would actually suggest you check out Megamix if you haven't already, because that rom hack seemed to respond to the camera panning criticisms you have of the game (and you might be surprised to hear that I think the camera should pan with the player).
- Actually, in regards to the camera panning, I suggest you look at Sonic Generations' Classic stages, because I think those stages handle camera panning really well. I actually think they handle the camera better than the Genesis games, but I'm careful not to annoy too many people with my admiration for Generations' classic stages :ssh:
- I agree that faster time completion should give rewards. This is something I liked a lot about Whitehead's Sonic CD re-release, because getting good times in time attack gave you the level select code (which had a purpose due to the time travel variants of each stage), debug mode, etc. And even when they weren't unlocks i was interested in such as the D.A. Garden, it still felt great to unlock things for completing levels quickly. I strongly, strongly disagree with locking levels and bosses behind time banks or gates. That's the kind of barrier that Sonic games usually do to stop progression. I do agree that fast time completion should give rewards, I liked your idea of secret level unlocks. I could also suggest characters and other unlocks.
- I found your parody of Nick on Planet Ripple really funny :v: . And that's coming from someone who really likes his content.
- I agree with you that Sonic CD handles exploration really well, it's actually the aspect of the game I enjoy the most. You know, despite the flaws of its time travel mechanic and the pointlessness of the future time posts.
- I've always loved the 3D Blast Special Stages, was great to see someone else who liked them as much as me!
- I agree with your criticism of the giant rings, this is something I've always been uneasy with. I have a sentimentality for finding giant rings maybe because of childhood nostalgia. But I also think people like them because they are better than the alternatives. Beating a level with 50 rings to unlock the special stage is too frustrating and I find the checkpoint system frustrating too. So I kind of think that they are popular because there hasn't been a better alternative in Sonic games. I would like to see a new option which would be better.
I do find it very disappointing that so many people here are trying to shut this guy down and get the thread trashed out of bad faith. I would like to think that we can listen to the other side of the argument without being children about it. The video is really good and everyone should check it out. It's not an immature criticism of Classic Sonic.
This was a really enjoyable watch for me. Actually, for the OP, maybe'll you'll want to check out one of the threads I wrote here on the flaws of Classic Sonic. It wasn't super popular, but it was surprisingly well-received here:
forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=37057&st=0&p=904621&#entry904621
I dislike RPGs even more. They require even less skill. Most people just use strategy guides anyway and it's more like playing a movie than a video game.
Not to mention that I hear so many people claim that the story in an RPG is basically the primary deciding factor of it's overall quality, so I totally get the movie thing. And it's not like I need to know why I'm going after the big bad guy or what crystals can grant peoples' wishes or what-have-you. I just wanna play a damn game; What does all this lore and character-building do for the player directly?
The only RPG that I can think of off the top of my head that I have a sense of respect for is Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest. Say what you will about the quality of that game, at least it doesn't waste your time with story. Sure, it has a teensy spoonful of that BS you have to waddle through, but it's nowhere NEAR as egregious as the status quo. I wish I could play more games like that where it just tells me the bare minimum, what I need to do to progress, and let me be on my merry way. We don't get a lot of those these days.
When I play most RPGs, I usually have a tendency grind for Gold and EXP until the cows come home. By the time I'm finished, I'm practically one-shoting everyone for, like, the first half of the game. The only RPGs I really find myself legitimately enjoying the most are more action-oriented in the gameplay-- Games like Kingdom Hearts, Brave Fencer Musashi, and Ys, just to name a few.
But despite all this, at the very least, I trust that the majority of RPG fans are fully aware that the genre isn't for everyone primarily because of how different it is from what we're used to. Ergo, they're usually more forgiving. I just wish Sonic fans would have that same level of understanding without feeling the need to make baseless assumptions about us because the reasons behind our opinion doesn't make immediate sense to them.
Game's that WILL make like Sonic:
1. Sonic Generations
2. Sonic adventure 1 and 2
3. Sonic 2
Nope. Already found it:
ruclips.net/video/ttTRxRZFghc/видео.html
I think you don't like Sonic for the same reason I used to not like some Sonics.
I'd compare Sonic to cooking. Some people enjoy the hobby for the sake of it, some need to be allowed to eat the food they prepare in order to view the task as worthwhile.
I'm the former with Sonic. It's not shocking that a game about speed gears its player to speedrunners, the unique problem is having these jank moments not off the beaten path - but where they are doesn't matter to a speedrunner.
It's not THAT you have to learn the levels, it's WHAT you learn about them that's worthwhile. This isn't the "git gud" cop out you here see it as. The physics and shortcuts are fun to discover. Building that that continuous flow through exploration of what Sonic can do is the cooking - your personal best clear times being the food.
Fixing this wouldn't make the game more or less clever or interesting. It's an accessibility argument you're making.
You control game characters like you act out a character in a play. Sonic just needs more rehearsal time.
I'd like to ask you something before I address your comment. Do you feel that I was personally attacking you with this video?
the fun of classic sonic games can possibly come from exploration, gimmicks, and how fast you can beat the level
At least those are elements that keep me playing. There may not be skill in the TRADITIONAL sense where you somehow SUPERMAN your way through enemies and stuff. But i dont think you necessarily need skill to enjoy sonic even though it sounds like thats what you want from sonic games.
It doesnt help that sonic games HAVE stuff that seemingly ASK for skill from you when it comes to obstacles that can kill or damage you....
Almost as if sonic was better off with obstacles or enemies?.....
.
...
......
Nahhh.
Sonic just really needs to deal with moving away from trial and error AND focus on giving the player more control in terms of being able to actually PREDICT shit. Maybe sign post, Zoomed out camera, Hints to enemies or obstacles, Decent stoppers that prepare you for obstacles.
In general, unless the game is EXPLICITLY advertising or exclaiming this stuff AND using it to its level design (like allegedly celeste or meat boy) Trial and error tends to be VERY outdated game design meant to push fake difficulty and artificially extend a games playtime.
This is the reason why a lot of the first megaman games werent liked by people and why a lot of people praised Shovel Knight over Mighty No.9.
Also, it feels like you're comparing Sonic games to something- I know you did the game gear games, but it feels like you're still comparing it to other games.
What else are you comparing it to? Mario? Megaman? I know you referenced megaman in the mecha sonic boss fight (lovely bosses btw.)
Super interested in any responses i get
I watched this vid and I dont really agree with this😑because that's what u do in almost all games u beat it and get something good in the game and have fun with it but there are so many other challenges that you can do like getting a world record on a level or beat the game under 30 min and many more.i really like the sonic games cause sonic looks cool and he acts cool and he is just cool the music is fire,and the gameplay is awesome like running fast and destroying robots along the way.I think u should give it another chance but if u still dont like it then that's ok its ur opinion and I'm not a hater of u I just disagree.👌
Okay great video and all, but how on earth do you like Sonic Free Riders???? The game barely functions!
I dunno. I guess I just had better luck getting it to work right. Tricks, turning, item usage, ring collecting, everything worked just fine for me. Hell, I can even navigate the menus effortlessly. Maybe I just had the right lighting?
Also, regarding your comment about 31:14 (I couldn't find your other comment), if you do a side-by-side comparison, you'll notice that in SMB DX, the screen pans forward as much as it can to give you a larger field of vision. Compared to the original NES title, you only lose a little over a tile of vision. In the example I provided, Mario is more towards the center of the screen, having less screen space. That was the point I was trying to get across.
Hey man it's okay if you don't like sonic games but people have their opinions but your not a hater
I respect it. But if you don't like games like this where you go 'too' fast. Please just.....Dont try and go for the time trials in crash 1 (Remastered)....What a nightmare...
It's a little too late for that. I already 100% Platinum'd Crash 1 Remastered.
P.S.: The Lab is harder than Stormy Ascent. Fight me.
@@TheNegativeIon Oh. Well that's fine with me. I was just telling you cause that game isn't exactly made for speed
SORRY FOR YOU
I have unpopular I like sonic 3 and knuckles but everyone say this is the best game ever made and my opinion is not the best game ever made i feel it’s kinda overrated
yknow, i havent watched the full video, but i find it kinda sad that you pretty much had to go nearly 1/5th of the video's length explaining why the rabid and toxic sonic fans shouldnt attack u cuz your opinion is different than theirs. its incredibly sad.
And yet look at the comment section, lol. That's Sonic fans for ya
When did he do that in the video?
I just got bored of it playing the same game with less speed on sonic 1
Goddamn you sound so different here bruh wtf
This comment section is full of poeple that say the 2d games are bad cuz they're TO HARD XD but I respect your opinion if you dont like them
I'm not convinced of either statement.
The 2D games aren't even hard. These people need to play Revenge of Shinobi (or other SEGA games) first.
I find the sonic franchise to be, ok, but the fan base and fans are just atrocious and the new games suck in this franchise, it’s to bad sonic gets worse every year, sonic 3 and knuckles was great and the best, but the modern games just fail and are bland in comparison
This video pretty much sums up, you love sonic games that have more exploration over speed... Most of the time. But also wanting the camera view to back up when going fast. And its evident that you DO like sonic games, just ones what the majority doesn't like, like sonic r and sonic cd leaving the title of the video, as much as you were trying not have people think this way, MISLEADING AS H*LL. A better titles should be "why I dont like sonic games that the majority favors and my ideal on a sonic game." Or something like that.
Many people enjoy going fast and having fun with building up that sense of speed which is why many people loved sonic 1, sonic 2, sonic 3 and knuckles, and the reaaon why you HATE sonic 3 and knuckles is because is a gameplay style you don't enjoy which is why you like mario... And I don't because I love having that speed achieving it, i still play this games because I enjoyed them and having a blast, The whole "needing to replay a sonic game to enjoy it" is pretty dumb. The emeralds serve as a award for beating the special stage, and the super emeralds are there to up the challenge and give you a more overpowered form for all characters.
I recommend sonic unleashed Wii version, sonic colors, sonic lost world, sonic boom, 06, and sonic heroes.
I don't like sonic the hedgehog
Mario is underrated sonic is meh for me
Same
Especially in character.
Mario doesn't show his character as much but he's still good o'l Mario the end of the day.
While I never really was a big fan of Sonic's personality.
Not to mention people always use fanmade theorys or bias to make Mario look horrible just to glorify Sonic.
@@Gabriel-zy7ee and I don't know why but to me sonic and his friends are just boring to me. Mario and friends on the other hand just way more funny and interesting even though they rarely speak words.
@@kerozine819 Exactly.
Tails imo went from likeable and a hero on his own to an overdependent sidekick while Luigi has proven himself many times that he dosen't need Mario or anybody else, and in personality Luigi has always been a fun and peaceful character that can actually overcome his worse fears head on.
Peach is very calm and peaceful but has finally gotten out of just the trophy girl for the hero role and still cares about Mario equally as well yet she does get serious when necessary, contrast to Amy who is just a simp to the one lousy popular kid.
Yoshi literally started the Mario verse by rescuing Mario as a Baby and is still willing to help Mario by any means necessary, he is also the one that freed everyone in Sm64DS, and it's literaly a Dinosaur and a Frog in one.
@@kerozine819 Here is my reasons to why I perfer Mario.
He dosen't have to brag or complain about the situation when actually doing hero work he just cuts straight to the point.
He is a great role model as well if you think about it, Saving your loved ones no matter the cost, inviting everyone to not let anyone fell left out, a great brother, has a really healthy relationship, working together can solve more problems than alone, and stand up to every wrong doing.
He's mostly very passive and comedic without even trying.
He also dosen't really mind others beating him in a contest(even Bowser).
Mario is a really chill guy but can be serious when he needs too.
But most importantly, Mario's experience's are mostly from you.
You basically connect and add on to everything established already, it's your personal experience that makes it fell great, all along the most special part Is that you shared those adventures along the way and in the future you can revisit and come back to the memory's and relive them.
One thing that bothers me that people say is that they can see what enemy's are ahead in the classic games. But you can literally roll and be pretty much invincible to all enemys.
TL;DR: Trying to make yourself invincible from all the enemies in a Sonic game by rolling is the equivalent to trying to make all the stages in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate competitively viable by turning off stage hazards. It's just not that simple.
I addressed this at 30:22 in the video, but allow me to go deeper here. There are 3 problems that I see with this argument.
1. This argument assumes that every enemy in the game is one you can just roll into without even needing to have your eyes open, let alone see coming. You have to ignore the fact there are enemies that can shoot projectiles, have spike balls protecting them, are just undefeatable, etc. to make this argument be the end-all-be-all that it's made out to be.
2. It assumes that you're always in a situation where rolling is possible. What if you're, say, grinding on a rail and you have to jump into an enemy that just appeared out of nowhere because you had virtually no time to react? Or what about flying through the air as Knuckles and then you drop down and land onto an enemy that was off-screen? What if you're bouncing upwards from a spring, locking you into a state of vulnerability mid-air, and there's an enemy you have to avoid when you come down? There are lots of situations where rolling/spindashing is not an option.
3. This is probably the worst one because it rings true even if the first two points don't. It indirectly assumes that enemies are the only threat you have to deal with. Rolling doesn't make you invincible to spike balls, spike walls, spike floors, laser floors, spike pits, bottomless pits, drowning, stage hazards, crushing hazards, fire hazards, fireballs, lasers, bullets, most projectiles in general, the list goes on.
Simply put, this is pretty much a non-sequitur. Rolling solves a very specific and minute problem and almost completely ignores an even bigger problem that caused it in the first place. But even then, you still have to be aware that that's what you're about to spindash into offscreen. Ergo, eliminating any and all likelihood that it could just be something else. The solution I offered immediately before the point where I addressed this argument in the video allows for more time to determine if rolling is the most optimal thing to do or not given the circumstance the player is currently in. Frankly, I don't see how that's not a more reasonable answer to the problem. Besides, if rolling really WAS the only thing you had to do to not die from anything, then wouldn't that just make for a really boring game anyway?
Oh, and please refrain from using the term "literally" as a means to emphasize something. You know that's not the proper way to use it.
I know that alot of people hate the new sonic games they prefer the old sonic games only some people like the new games well for me i love all the newer sonic games i enjoy them i had no problem with the new games i thought the new sonic games were games to me in my unpopular opinion
I really hate Sonic
Why do you want to like them so badly? You've grown up. You've moved on. I used to like the Spice Girls as a child.
Your opinion
It is
34:31 I won't patronize you with an explanation as to why this is a dumb strawman. It will come to you.
Also how is the ending a reward lmao
I think he means he jusy doesnt want to be hyperfocused on shaving off time.
I lile to take time to explore, look for items and other stuff as well.
I also like to go back to certain parrs of the map to pull off speed or platform sections thst i messed up
Kind of like two segments in wing fortress. One where you use an elevator up and platform to get a monitor, one where you speed to get the monitors in the sky.
Infact. When i mess that part up, i REALLY like to retry it to get all the rings.
I disagree with the premise that you have to like Sonic 3&K first to like the rest. I am a massive Sonic fanboy, played all games that aren't some alien spinoffs like Sonic X for Leapster, even enjoyed 06 and Shadow...
But I don't like Sonic 3&K that much. It's because level design is too start and stop. Sonic 2 and CD were designed to be played without spin dash, so they kept better flow. Sonic 3&K keeps a cycle where there is hold down to win, then player just stops or is launched into air (and stops on landing). Then there is something slow, then hold down again. There's no skipping slow sections. It has an obsession with being fair (but they failed at it) and condesed and this lack of flow is a result, with developers forgetting that in Sonic 2 or Sonic 1GG there were many managable sections where players could react to stuff while running (but not too fast). In S3&K it's either slow walk or Mach 1 with nothing in between (and spin dash encouraged devs to abuse that).
I noticed that you stopped liking Sonic at a specific point when the series stopped doing new things, stopped expanding lore, stopped new themes in favor of Green Hill Act 4563322. You seem to get bored with that. I got that too.
Maybe try playing Sonic After the Sequel. It's a good fangame, that is very fresh and full of new ideas. It will prove that your problem is or is not about gameplay itself.
People'have feelings and opinions stop making him look bad I hate sonic as well I am a fan of Mario
@@Kaathe249 he's not though, plus what does being a sonic hater/mario fan have to do with anything? What you were going to make him angry or something?
You're not doing anything wrong. You just need to stop liking Sonic
I hate sonic too the fisrt game i played was super mario world its way better than sonic i liked mario
i think a lot of the problems you have with the games are because you came with the idea of sonic games being shit because of probably ign and other people who just want money by criticizing sonic and that you just want to go fast,in sonic games a lot of parts are hard platforming the thing that you say of being difficult to see whats coming its not a problem for me i think its because you dont have enough practice with how sonic control and you dont have enough ability at the contrary of what you say of you having to repeat the game to enjoy it is the contrary i have played sonic 3 only part in sonic 3 complete,and when i already learned the level design of the first stage i started triyng to go as fast as i can to skip it because i dont like it anymore there is no more difficulty its really boring i have played sonic 3 only 1 time completely,and i passed the game with no problem,the only problem i had was the special stages but i now its because im stupid and not because the game,i think sonic 3 and knuckles is very enjoyable and the problems you have with the screen is because you are not so good playing games.
Because you dont know how to play them
And how do you define playing them?
@@Brabbs High-speed platforming.
You hate on sonic because of his speed
You hate Mario beacuse his better
@anti simp police you hate sonic because Mickey is better than sonic and mario.
@@kaitlynwhalen5961 you hate Mario and sonic beacuse heavy from tf2 is better
What is this conversation turning into?
@@indonesianman-22 You hate Mario and Sonic because Doomguy from Plants vs Zombies Heroes, a subseries of Metroid, on the PS4, is better than Ryu Hayabusa from Thunder Force IV on the Atari Jaguar
I'm sorry, but the the statement "I never liked Sonic games, I only thought I did" makes no sense. You either like something or you don't. Never once in my life have ever said "I think I like this; i'm not sure" or "I think I don't like this". You know why I've never said that? Because that would sound incredibly stupid out loud.
Similar to how people like cults, not everyone has everythung figured out when they get into something. Some people can start off with unhealthy mindsets that make them feel obligated to something without thinking into it.
How do you know this wasnt something this guy grew into slowly over the years?
Things change over time
Sonic free riders is great
I love sonic but 06 I hate it
.
Mario are better
Nice grammar
@@Koaypc XD
I agree
I hate sonic he's a mean guy I should never trust him to tell me jokes
Yeah he a hater >:[
It's an opinion
I want to dislike, but its at 69 so I cant
I hate sonic
spider man will never say that....
@@zulqarnain3326 I'm in the online web what's yiur exuse
Cool, who cares?
ok
Are you secretly Robotnik
Haters gonna hate.
They have their reasons.
@@boukendabouken2838 Replies and counter arguments
@@boukendabouken2838 How do you know that?
When Kaitlyn said "Haters gonna hate," who exactly was s/he really referring to? S/he may have been calling me a hater, or s/he could have been talking about the majority of people who downvoted the video. Hell, s/he may have even just clicked on a random video and left a generic comment out of boredom. But because the comment itself doesn't supply the reader with enough information, how can we really say for sure what its purpose is?
The same thing works the other way around. Before you clarified the meaning of your comment, one person could've looked at it and thought you were referring to me and another person, to Kaitlyn. This was the purpose of my two comments here as well. Since both weren't clear in their respective contexts, I replied with that same vagueness to see how one would take it.
I think I should dislike
*like*
It is an opinion.
Then do it, why do you feel the need to type it out?
@@Brabbs did I ask?
@@king_ziggyd4742 No, but you put a public comment on the internet for people to talk about :P