Why Mario Sunshine Speedrunners Use Hacks
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- Опубликовано: 3 апр 2020
- The Super Mario Sunshine speedrun community has recently allowed the use of a hacked save file to skip the intro cutscenes. How did we get to this point? What is the general response? Tune in to hear one of the most interesting speedrun stories as of recent.
Discord Server: / discord
Videos Used:
JJSRL's Former World Record in Super Mario Sunshine any%: • Super Mario Sunshine A...
Jcool114 Super Mario Sunshine PB: • Super Mario Sunshine A...
JJSRL vs Weegee at PACE 2019: • JJsrl vs Weegee | Supe...
Super Mario Sunshine Leaderboard: www.speedrun.com/sms
How to get Hacked File: www.speedrun.com/sms/guide/qeqcu
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#SuperMarioSunshine #SuperMario3DAllStars #speedrun 
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Reminds me of how in the Portal 2 Speedrun, basically everyone agreed to take a 2 minute penalty to their time and start after the ride with Wheatley just to avoid his cutscene.
It’s not really considered a time penalty, just the timer starting at where it would be if you actually sat through the cutscene.
"yall just impatient"
thats the point of speedrunning
I know you’re joking, but speedrunners are probably the lost patient people ever. They spend thousands of hours on a thing that is completely meaningless.
@@jon.... it’s not meaningless if you like it
@@jon.... but then what has meaning in life. If you have fun doing something, it's not meaningless.
@@cosmicabuse_ There is no inherent meaning to anything, so give it whatever meaning you want.
"Y'all just impatient lmao" yes that's why hacked file exists
*Speed* runners
Speedrunners are Some of the most patient people ever. They put 1000’s of hours into a game just to save seconds of time.
@@paradoxx4546 i dont think patient is the right word for that. theyre persistant
@@tarah2048 and determined
@@tarah2048 Probably both+determined?
Ok but literally messing up once and essentially having to spend this video’s run time waiting sounds like shit
Yeah, especially since some runners STILL justify running New File every time. It annoys the shit out of mr
@@lucasn0tch nobody is forcing you to watch it
Initially I didn't like cutting out the cutscenes until I saw that tweet that said they spent 400 hours in them and I was like get that shit out of here
What's crazier is that comes up to just ~4230 runs
I believe people should get a job instead of play games like this
@@samditto they do have a job.
@@samditto
Every speedrunner I watch has jobs outside of speedrunning lmao what are you talking about
@@samditto Ratioed
Understandable, imagine doing a slight mistake early on and having to watch 6 minutes of cutscenes just to try again.
At least it isn't the Golden Sun Dark dawn intro. 7 minutes and 6 minetes and half are text explaining the history of the other 2 games.
Its not even just mistakes, Sunshine also has plenty of RNG sections that can lose minutes of time.
you think that's bad? try doing a speedrun of the og ps2 version of Kingdom Hearts, that's like 30 minutes of unskippable cutscenes within the first hour, and a total of 4 hours the entire run
"You want to skip the part of the game that makes it not fun to run and is overall super boring and doesn't effect the run at all? That sucks."
@edoardo caccia theres prob some but i think most people just think that using hacks tarnishes the “vanilla” aspect of speedrunning
jcool was bein a huge whiny bitch tho
@edoardo caccia Because the status quote has to be maintained. Why should modification of any kind be allowed in any game? That is that.
@@professionalfangster1510 Because modifications, as long as they are regulated, make speedrunning games more enjoyable. As simple as that.
@Professional Fangster "Why should modification of any kind be allowed in any game?"
That is a very "black and white" thought process. There is a first time for everything, but that doesn't mean there has a second necessarily. People worried that this sets some sort of precedent are clearly over-looking the extremely lengthy conversation that was had over this. If some random runner started talking about using hacks that had no purpose, people would be up in arms in seconds. This was an over-all good change for everyone, and if it does set a precedent it will only be a positive one in the vein of considering making a change for the better.
What you are implying is weirdly boomer-ish.
5 mins 40 seconds is 340 seconds
1000 attempts = 340000 seconds = 5666.6666 minutes = 94.4444 hours just watching cutscenes
Bruh
Yes, I guess that's the best argument they can give. In my opinion, I would say that it's preferible to use the hacked file and other external tools for practicing, but only allow the real game to be speedruned.
@@spannersan9172 the issue then is that then you have to make sure that your ‘good runs’ are always during real runs and not during your easier practice. which… you can’t do, or predict in any way. and while i’m not much into the SMS speedrunning community specifically, i would assume that most runners are grinding real runs for an attempt at the record, where every run is experience gained and an actual try.
@@leori-7477 Sure, I totally understand your point, but it just makes it easier in the matter of sense that you are reducing the amount of patience between every speedrun try. Of course, thos is not about skill, but how you're mentally prepared for keep trying and trying again. If the community accepts this, so be it, it's kinda rational. But, in my opinion, that is like "fakeing the runs". But, of course, nobody cares about my opinion and I'm okay with that jaja
When the first 8 minutes of a speedrun is unskippable cutscenes, I can fully understand wanting to get rid of them; especially in a game as heavily optimized as SMS where you're going to be resetting many times in a single session. You know how long the cutscenes are, down to the frame. That never changes, so you can just add that time to the starting timer and be done with it. It makes no difference whether you've watched them or not since it doesn't give you any advantage. All it does is not waste your time.
Does anyone know why, after the first poll, they didn't just create a "Race File" catagory? That way people that wanted to play that way could and people who wanted to do "File Select" could play their way? Seems to me like a really easy way to resolve the problem.
No idea. Seems pretty obvious, there must be a reason
people complained that it was just a cat extension at that point so much so that jcool made his own lb for it i have spoken with him abt it in the past and seems to be the reason i only started using hf because of the vote
If they could do that, the people who didn't want to couldn't get a world record
@@ardron1 Sure they could. It would just be in a separate category.
You want to VERY careful splitting an Any%. That's usually the most popular category, and, especially with something like this, you could HEAVILY splinter and possibly even kill a speedgame if you aren't being VERY careful.
While I think there's some merit in running games unmodified, speedrunning is a hobby people do for fun at the end of the day. If people in a competition agree to do something in the interest of making it more enjoyable, that's okay.
Agree. If modifying the game makes it into a better speedgame, I see no reason not to do it. It is human nature to take a thing and make it better.
The only argument against it was the slippery slope argument which is generally not a good argument
I'd rather say that they do that for competitivity, not just for fun. Then, I'd understand those speedruners who didn't agree with the hacked file.
@@herrabanani if you haven’t heard of bioshock infinite speedruns, there’s a part of the speedrun where you have a 1% chance to actually continue a run at least halfway into it thanks to a certain item, and the community was so sick of it they allowed a modded rom to make that item always spawn instead of a 1% chance
@@TheDunsparceGames when rng is the only way and there's no exploit to force the rng you need that's completely fair.
A similar thing was done with Dark Souls 2 speedrunning. A mod that removes "baby jumps" has been used by prominent runners, despite the controversy. Because baby jumps are entirely outside their control and act simply as random screwover that could add full minutes to a speedrun.
Btw jump distance in vanilla DS2 is calculated using the framerate, which is variable. So if a jump happens to coincide with a drop in framerate, the jump will be shorter and will likely not clear the gap
You did a Good job doing a concept that hasn't really been done yet.
As an outsider looking in, 'bout f***ing time.
I remember hearing about this debate a while back, I'm surprised it took them this long. Hopefully all the runners are satisfied with this conclusion.
hacking out the cutscenes doesn't give anyone any kind of timing advantage against those who don't do it, so....I see no reason not to. Remember folks, back in the earliest days of speedrunning, glitches were often seen as 'cheats' by alot of people, and now it's hard to imagine speedrunning without them. Don't be afraid of change if it's for the better
"hacking out the cutscenes doesn't give anyone any kind of timing advantage against those who don't do it"
Ummm... what? You literally just said, "Skipping cutscenes doesn't save time."
@@0rbnotacus It doesn't save time on the leaderboards because the time of the cutscenes is added back in. Though it does save time outside the leaderboards, that is, real time.
@@SilverLining1 Ooohhhh okay hahaha, thanks.
The main arguments against are accessibility (someone without the means to use a hacked file can't participate), slippery slope (why not hack this and that and so on too), and potential for cheating (how do we know you didn't also hack something else to gain a subtle advantage).
How much weight these arguments hold is a matter of opinion.
@@renakunisaki accessibility with the hacked file isnt an argument, the time is still there, someone with a unhacked file with a total playtime time of 21 minutes beats out someone with a hacked file of 17 minutes because the hacked file adds the 6 minutes to the leaderboard as a penalty, totaling 23 minutes, if someone can't play a hacked file they can still play the game
Slippery slopes are basically the weakest argument there is, sure there IS a chance for this, but its VERY slim, especially since it's for convenience, and not taking away any skill from the actual game, and the time, like I stated before, isn't affected by this, end of story, and if people try to weasle in hacks that affect time because of this, that shows more of an issue with them/the community, and NOT the quality of life change
Point three is just flat out bullshit, a hacked file=/=a hacked game, changing a flag for convenience in a save isn't like running a hacked emulator, the software still runs the same, the hardware still runs the same, erase the file off of your memory card and play a fresh game and the cutscenes will work as the developers intended
As for other flags to get ticked, moderators will notice a blatant "oh.....he already has a blue coin, why?" deal, they comb through every run like mad when something seems afoot, doing something like increasing Mario's run speed or how much gets cleaned by flood or how much is in floods tank can be measured using frames
Worse comes to worse, show the hardware and software, plus, cheaters ARE gonna cheat, but not with a save hack, theres a ton of world records that have been caught sooner or later because of that, if they do end up hacking the software somehow and moderators can't determine the runs fake, that's not gonna happen with a save hack, it'll have to be a software hack
Imagine (in this instance) flags being goals you have to run through, effectively the hack just tells the game "hey, they passed this goal, don't make them do it again" and as such, theres no way to subtly cheat, if the game says "hey, they got this shine" the shine menue is going to expose them, visual tells like the pineapple on the hotel level not being there is going to show, or having acess to fludd parts when they shouldn't will also be obvious, and when you enter levels, basically every flag for that specific level gets changed back to false, meaning even hacking flags in levels kinda useless even if it doesnt get caught, so the flag hacks only permamently affect (off the top of my head) pretty much all of defino plaza content, shine count/completion, cutscenes, blue coins, secret level red coin buttons appearing, fludd nozzles being unlocked in a specific level, and yoshi being unlocked, all these things that are very noticeable
Good quality video. There's some extra context that could explain what specifically led to the polls happening, the compromises being made, etc. but otherwise this gives a pretty decent overview of how we got here. It'll definitely be interesting to see what sort of changes this might inspire in other games!
Allowing the hacked file was absolutely the right move. The cutscenes cause burnout in casual players, for speedrunners to go through that must be maddening. Even if it was made a separate category it would've become the primary one anyway, for both runners and viewers. Rules are decided by each game's community on a case-by-case basis so I find it irrelevant to bring up slippery slope fallacy; besides this is a hacked file and not a modded game, so it's still completely equal footing for all runners which is a key part of such decisions. Some games let different versions compete in the same categories, and sometimes even different emulators, and sometimes the version of the emulator! This is nothing compared to that mess.
The song he uses at the beginning is the Peach's Castle Grounds theme whilst inside of Bowser from Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story if anyone was curious. Here's the link because there are multiple songs for each part (and version) of Peach's Castle in that game:
ruclips.net/video/BjpvbzuKMe8/видео.html
People like you are the best. Thanks homie
The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker also has a very, very long cutscene.
At least the HD version can be skipped
not a lost number I don't know which cutscene you are talking about, but if it is one of the opening cutscenes on outset island, speed runners skip them by using manual super swim
@@ludbud3727
The one when you start the game, the "lore" video.
In GCN it takes like 7 minutes just to begin the game
@@notalostnumber8660 But, at least it's just one cutscene, so you don't have to be actively paying attention to the game for it.
@@evonthon And there is no gameplay between cutscenes (I may be very wrong) so the timing starts after the intro cutscens ends. Correct me if I'm wrong
@@evonthon It's one you have to restart and watch the cutscene again
I don't know why people are saying that they're using a "hacked game" when the game itself is running completely as intended, it's just the save file's been altered to flag the intro cutscenes as "seen"
And how was the save file altered to flag the intro cutscene as “seen”? Via hacks.
@@christianc1120 but the point is that all the hack affects is cutscene viewing. It doesn’t affect gameplay or rng chances or anything, you just skip something that only has story value and no addition to run skill. all you do during those parts is wait, without the ability to get to gameplay. they might as well not be there, as far as the run is concerned, except for the time spent waiting while they play.
“hacked game” in the way toader the toad says it does refer to altering the game to give the runner a favor, which can be dishonest and most certainly destroys the integrity of gameplay. it is still a hack to flag the three cutscenes watched, but it doesn’t alter gameplay experience and only adds an option for players to choose a much nicer playing experience.
@@christianc1120 Yeah. Adding on to Leori's comment, what I meant by that comment is that there are NO hacks applied to the game. Something like using a AR code to skip cutscenes I can understand, but the save file is simply modified in this case, meaning the game is dealing with this save file as intended.
The cut scenes are part of the game they didn't release the game with them being cut out that was not what they intended
@@AdamKaiser. But what I'm saying is that the game is going "Has the entire opening been seen yet? Yes, it has. Skip to Delfino Plaza." The game isn't the one modded, it's the save file
I really get confused by ppl who argue about something “setting a precedent.” It’s easy to say that Sunshine is just an exception.
I'm sure MOST games have something like a uneskippable cutscene. Again, hacking is hacking and sadly that's no longer an official Mario Sunshine game, but an adultered version, which is basically against the basic rules of speedrunning about not allowing hacks. I would say more about but I'm sure I'll put some clear bias against that game, but a thing I can say, Why is the game splitted into 2 leaderboards?
SMS rule changes do not set a precedent for any other game. Speedrunning rules have always been on a per game basis. The idea has always been that the communities around each game set their own rules since they know the most about the game and it's quirks. Lots of games are split up into more than 1 leaderboard. SM64 has multiple leaderboards, because that's what the community decided was best for the game. Every game has it's own unique leaderboards and rules. SMS is no different. This changes nothing for other games.
@@N12015 Not really... not this long or this close to the beginning of the run. At least not in the other major speedrunning games (zelda, super metroid, Mario 64, Goldeneye, etc)
@@trequor the only ones I know of that compare are Majora's Mask and Star Fox Adventures, but in both of those cases, the opening scene does contain a lot of gameplay, so skipping them wouldn't be the same as in SMS. (They just aren't much fun the 800th time through, and may as well be a cutscene...)
While not as long, there are Ocarina of Time and Super Metroid; both have a long unskippable opening scene with zero gameplay. Interestingly, SM players opt to skip it by starting from a file that's saved just after, but OoT players don't, though they could.
If you want even more controversy, check out Banjo-Kazooie runs that use a "New Game+" glitch involving playing a few minutes on an existing save file before actually starting the run.
Edit: I forgot about Wind Waker 🤦
@@renakunisaki Wind Waker's intro isn't nearly as long (same goes for Ocarina of Time). Majora's Mask is fairly comparable to Sunshine though
Corpse Party was so not what I expected from an outro tune on SMS speedrunning.
Respect.
The only global rule of speedrunning in my opinion are the rules for a games category set by it's community. As long as everyone is using the same thing I don't see the issue with there just being 2 different categories.
Exactly. And if there is a dispute then the category can simply be split.
Community nothing, each individual runner can set their own rules - what the community thinks only matters for a given website hosting leaderboards, and different communities are going to think different things. So the only thing that actually matters is "do I want to speedrun it this way" for the runners.
Im not sure what your point is. If multiple people decide they "want to speedrun it this way" then that creates a community for that type of run...?
@@Ouzzel My point is that it doesn't matter what "the community" says, no matter what site or group or so on it is. You can always do your own thing. So, community votes and such on such things are extremely trivial, echo-chamber-y and circle-jerky - they're trying to define what speedrunning is according to what they personally want, and then they flip out when they don't get what they want. None of them actually respect the democratic process either. So, it's better to just speedrun however you like and have fun with it instead of worrying about community nonsense.
When it comes to the "setting a dangerous precedent for other speed games", something that's kinda interesting is that for a long time now a lot of Valve games speedruns often use premade save files and starting times to skip long intros with 0 gameplay. In HL2 runners use a file that's about 3 seconds before the end the gman intro. In Portal depending on category they usually use a file that starts either just a second before the relaxation vault opens, or just a few seconds before the first portal opens (Obviously adjusting the timer to match legacy runs and run that don't use the save). In Portal 2 runners usually load a save that starts just before Wheatley smashes through the wall in the old testing track (Even though you technically "Play" in the intro, it's nearly 5 minutes of scripted events with no actual way to save time).
Wonder how the situation would have went if the SMS iso included in 3D All-Stars had the ability to skip cutscenes.
I'm not a speedrunner, but I think that they should use the hacked file method and then add the time of the intro cutscene back in the run
Yes, that's the final decision they agreed on
The unskippable cutscenes are most pitiable.
Unskippable ads are just as bad lol
Yeah I feel like it's tough to argue in favor of spending hundreds of hours waiting to start runs.
TL;DW Mario Sunshine's cutscenes are too damn long
y'AlL jUsT iMpAtIeNt LmAo
-random twitter guy who probably never played the game in his entire life.
yea its not like runners have thousands of runs which all add up to waste multiple hours of their life or anything
They all already waste days of their life into this, not like taking the cutscenes out will change much to that
@@PixieBladeArt Great explanation of the Sunken Costs fallacy, but that being said, it actually changes a LOT.
Super Mario Sunshine came out in 2002, that's almost 20 years ago! I was casually scrolling through the official run list, and the oldest run I saw with a runner still playing is 6 years ago. So this person has been playing Super Mario Sunshine at the rate it takes to get speedruns for the last 6 years...
The intro to the run is 7 minutes long, out of the roughly hour and a half run; which btw is about 10% of the entire run... Let's say they do 3 attempts a day, and they do attempts 4 times a week. 3 attempts times 7 minutes is 21 minutes per day, 4 times a week is 84 minutes a week, or a little over an hour JUST WATCHING CUTSCENES.
Let's go a little farther, because I am talking about 6 years worth of runs here. Let's assume they take breaks for holidays, and throw in some extra lost time to be safe for possible hiatuses: So 84 minutes a week * 48 weeks in a year is 4,032 minutes, and let's remove 10 days worth of time for safeness in every year, so 21 minutes per day times 10 is 210 minutes, bringing us to 3,822 minutes every year spent watching cutscenes, or 63.7 HOURS.
Finally, let's add that up into years, 3,822 minutes times 6 would be 22,932 minutes, or 382 HOURS!
So yea, skipping a 7 minute cutscene is kind of the difference between some speedrunners even placing on the leaderboards in the time they have available to play a video game... People's lives are finite, maybe you need to learn to appreciate yours better.
@@PixieBladeArt ngl you just kinda lost your iq here
@@PixieBladeArt big dumb
"Y'all just impatient"
-Some 50 year mom that never played a game in her life
The "Y'all" says it all
@@SpringySpring04 such criticism against other cultures’ region of linguistic differences says a lot about you actually. Hard to believe Americans still have issues with southern Scots-Irish linguistics.
I love the Peaches Castle Music in the background from the game Mario & Luigi's Bowser's inside story, nice & subtle, bonus points from me :)
"One of the most interesting stories in speedrunning as of lately"
Dream: "now this looks like a job for me"
Pls shut up about dream pls
@@orangeman3505 no
@@Serph.. yes
I didn’t exactly know what the end compromise was before this since I haven’t watched runs in a hot minute. But (as an outsider) what I thought would be best ended up winning which is nice. I think no actual gameplay sections should be skipped, so happy to see we reached a good middle ground.
I know of two other games that start after an auto scroller walking type session of the run. I personally am totally in favor of games skipping these types of cutscenes or parts, even if they are technically playable
What, like the opening of RE5 before you gear up and the literal only dynamic gameplay is for flavor?
@@stitchfinger7678 Right but I don't think the RE5 speedrunners will complain, it literally takes what, 30 secs? It's not a big deal.
"Negative"
shows a Facebook like upside down
Rest in peace facebook's dislike button lol
i played the game for the first time a few days ago and ive already watched the cutscenes on youtube before. waiting to sight through them all was a chore so i'm glad they were removed for speedrunners. Like imagine being a new speedrunner and have to sit though minutes of content over and over and over again and all you can do is wait. surely that put people off speedrunning the game
nice pfp
I think the best thing to do is to allow the runners to play on those modified games, and add the time that the cutscenes would've taken after
yes
That just seems like theerect solution, doesn't it, @@TheJinx64?
5:19 seeing my favourite rac speedrunner diss his sumsums like that gives off major chad energy
┏┓
┃┃╱╲ in this
┃╱╱╲╲ house
╱╱╭╮╲╲ we
▔▏┗┛▕▔ stan
╱▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔╲
Xem
╱╱┏┳┓╭╮┏┳┓ ╲╲
▔▏┗┻┛┃┃┗┻┛▕▔
“Dur hur xem what about ur SMS time”
I kind of hope this has an impact on the lego speedrunning community, especially for basically any game after lego batman 2. The stupid amounts of cutscenes are what really turns me off learning the games for speedrunning.
This was such a good video! You earned a new subscriber
If you can skip all cut scenes except the ones for which there are already known skips, you'll have to create a new category every time a new cut scene-skipping exploit is found.
I'm not a speedrunner but I've been a casual viewer for a while and have a few friends in the community. Something that still rubs me the wrong way about the original File Select vs Race File debate...why didn't they just do race file as its own separate category to begin with? Forget adding that extra arbitrary time to the clock, start timing from selecting the race file and just keep it away from the file select records. Like...is there a reason to avoid doing that?
I know it's not quite comparable due to the difference in platform but I always felt SM64 handling console, VC, and emu as separate categories was ideal and should be the standard to follow whenever a problem like this crops up. I personally don't have any qualms with using a hacked file though, and having Peach file means there's an accessible alternative for anyone uninterested or unable to use hacks. But that said, I still feel race file should have been accepted from the start.
"Why can't they just compromise and be happy?"
There's a lot of situations where you have to ask yourself. The answer is always "I don't know".
Honestly, I agree.
The only reason I'm against the hacked file, is because they are making what should be a category mandatory.
As for why they can't compromise... because it is about being right/wrong. It is petty justification.
After all, if they aren't right in using a hacked version, then their suffering and arguments and people who insulted them were right. To protect their pride, standing, and bias on both sides... one side must be wrong otherwise both sides have to admit they were making a mistake.
very well made content.good voice, good montage, good narrative. congrats!
I've never tried a speedrun and likely never will, but I still find myself watching videos about speed running because it's pretty damn fascinating how these people figure this shit out.
Near-complete outsider here, but I fully support having the alternate leaderboard for hacked file.
Think of the intro cutscenes like ads on videos. They have no relevancy to the content you’re here for (gameplay), you don’t have interest in them and upon further viewing they begin to annoy you, and you can’t skip them. Except the intro cutscenes are far longer, and speedrunners view them very frequently, and there is 0 variation or replay value to even slightly enjoy the experience.
I think the main argument against skipping actual playable gameplay, even if simple, is that it reduces reset chances versus people who play everything the game offers to them.
No matter how small the chance, you could certainly mess up and lose time in the easy first bits. That’s what the new file players encounter. But if you skip those insignificant bits, you’re already taking a shortcut to skip a period of risk, by having that many seconds/minutes less gameplay to worry about. *This* is the part that can possibly be considered a slippery slope, if other areas of the game are also deemed unimportant to gameplay experience and skipped, decreasing the risk of having to reset.
But the solution is really just to draw hard lines and not make hasty decisions on things like this. A good rule is just to never remove gameplay if it is during/intrinsically linked to a period that could lose you time (ie a super mario world run where a completely autoscroller level is marked complete, but the instant or two that would be spent navigating overworld to select and leave that level would be neglected and thus become an advantage). So the intro cutscenes in Sunshine, which are neither gameplay nor could lose/gain you time if you do worse/better, are of no consequence if they were to be skipped.
…Yeah, this isn’t fresh news anymore, but I thought it was cool and wanted to talk.
Great video ☺️ I really enjoyed it!
Very nice music choice for the beginning there 👌
Can’t wait to see more videos!
Excellent job on this video!
In the beginning he was talking about long unskippable cutscenes at the start of the game but have you ever seen GTA5 speedruns
eh in gtaV they can kinda be a blessing too i think since they can be used to like go to the toilet n shit which is good in a 6 hour any% run or an over 10 hour (iirc) 100% run
i could be wrong though
I'm just mad at Nintendo for making the cutscenes unskippable 🤷♂️
The game came out in an era where video games never had the feature.
3:01
when i used Dolphin EMU i got hacked file the first second i could. 3DAS is a different story, but I can save 2 minutes by peach file
It's interesting to see what kind of things crop up in speedruns or other types of challenge runs, things you might not think of at first. As someone interested in designing my own games, I want to take all of these lessons to heart and make sure my games are speedrun-friendly.
If you're worried about players skipping an important cutscene by accident, then a good way to implement cutscene skips is by holding down the button. Have your cake and eat it too.
Or just create an option in the pause menu, which auto-skips cutscenes.
People accidentally hold down the button, or their pet might do something and depending on how sensitive the controller is resting can put enough pressure to skip. Sometimes controllers even have sticky buttons after use where it will hold inputs for short periods.
I'm a fan of having oldschool secrets and easter eggs unlocked by pressing special button combos in the pause menu. For a game where you don't want players missing important cutscenes (especially if they contain important gameplay information that players might not expect in a cutscene, such as hinting at the location of a hidden item), locking the option to skip or disable cutscenes behind a cheat code can be a great option.
I know this video is a year old now, but the Portal speedrunning community does something similar. They allow a vault save that skips the 58ish seconds of gameplay that can't be skipped (mainly used for glitchless and nSLA legacy because inbounds and OOB can do vault skip).
0:00 I'm pretty sure everyone hates unskippable cutscenes so you're not wrong
If you make a game with FMV or nonrendered cgi cutscenes there is no reason not to allow skipping.
Great video my dude
instructive video , really cool ty !
Feels like Option D was a troll option lol. Huge difference between "skipping the intro" and "skipping ALL cutscenes (except a few)"...
Not necessarily. It was added in as a way of asking the community: where do we draw the line for modifying the game?
It was essentially the "Skip all cutscenes" options, as the exceptions were ones that there were already known ways to skip
You really deserve MORE subs
"If you're a kingdom hearts ps2 speedrunner, you absolutely despise unskippable cutscenes"
Change can be scary, but sometimes it's a good thing. More communities should try compromising like the Sunshine Community.
God this really feels like a court case summary, I like when people make them interesting tho
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In Sly Cooper on PS2, there is a save file manipulation you can use to set the cutscene flags for the longest cutscenes without hacking, which is very fortunate for runs
The Jet Set Radio Future speedrunning community also does this, They added Input viewers, An in game timer, UCF (Universial Controller Fix) And there is a trick that skips a decent portion of the game but it's patched on some later versions so even before all the mods, you were still allowed to mod the mission files into the game to enable the glitch.
Also if you don't know there are atleast a few minute cutscenes after every chapter, its a bit annoying but the cutscenes are iconic.
lmao i love what xem said at 5:20.
6 minutes of unskippable cutscenes
*cries in Pokemon Sun&Moon*
You can literally go eat dinner, have a bath, brush your teeth, and when you come back pokemon SM's cutscene wont even be over yet
@@k8e717 tbh just bring your ds or computer emulator with you and its just an interactive movie
All this controversy and discussion just because Nintendo for some reason didn't include the option of skipping cut scenes. How many hours would that decision have taken to implement and how many hours would it have saved the speedrunning community? 😅
I think the solution is simple. Have a variable to indicate if the ISO was hacked or not, and if it's hacked, just add in the cutscenes to the final time. If literally the only difference is the lack of the cutscenes and that's the only thing that is effected in terms of time and gameplay, then just add the time, simple.
great explanation on the matter
Nintendo should’ve made them skippable in 3D All-Stars
yeah, that would’ve been really smart! they could’ve just included something like a toggleable setting for “watch cutscenes” and make this no longer require hacking
Now I want to imagine what would happen if someone found a way to skip the intro cutscenes
the only issue I see with hacked files is that you need special hardware to use them on a gamecube
I've always thought that including unskippable time inside a speedrun is weird. On one hand, it encourages the player to discover weird and creative tricks to get around them, which is fascinating, but on the other, it's kind of bullshit that you can have your time sabotaged by something you have literally no control over, too.
I'm on the side of "full-on minute+ long cutscenes definitely shouldn't count to the timer if they can't be skipped, period." to be frank. If we know EVERY run will lose xx:xx to this point and that point, those minutes are meaningless to the final counter, why even include them? And if you can include a way to force them to be skippable for the runner and viewers' sanity, all the better. Speedrunning already uses a bunch of wacky-ass glitches that were definitely never intended to be used by the developers, why does skipping cutscenes they didn't allow to be skipped (something with ZERO gameplay impact) cross some arbitrary line, you know?
@@CyberchaoX Yes that's a fair enough criticism of my phrasing. I meant it in the sense that there are times where someone's time gets killed because of a cutscene- sure, AFTER the fact, everyone has the same blocks, but *during* the run itself they can surely feel oppressive, like an inescapable doom clawing away your victory from you
or something
but yeah I just find it strange that you can totally lose a record run because of something wholly outside your control??
Man, I miss this game. I played it a BUNCH when I was little but my disc got scratched well before I was able to beat it (or even get relatively close to the end)
I think skipping cutscenes is absolutely the way to go. There's absolutely no skill, luck, or fun in spending minutes, hours even watching the same thing over again. It's just negatives all the way down, it's just nothing, might as well be a loading screen.
Really good video !👍
Nothing else to say...
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awesome video very interesting
I thought you were going to show that blue coin from Pianta Village where you shoot the moon when you were saying "shoot for the moon"
I mean, the Bioshock Infinite community uses a modded game to get rid of RNG that kills a run. Don't see an issue.
What kind of RNG? Because RNG in games can kill runs but it is part of the game unfortunately (think Dampe in OoT).
This just makes sense to be honest
I very much agree with this decision. I think this should be allowed for all video game speed runs. Speed running is about getting the fastest time possible so we can achieve new records. And cutscenes (especially ones that you can’t skip) just steps all over that. If we remove cutscenes, even small ones, we might even be able to get a new record for SMB even lower than the 4 minute one right now. And if people want the cutscenes to be there, they can just add a speed running spot for the cutscenes. Anyway, sorry for the long essay about cutscenes, I just hope in the future it will be allowed to skip cutscenes in all games, not just in SMS
hello speedrunner here nice video u covered a lot of good points :)
To clarify, are the different timing methods tracked under different categories? If so, I don't see the problem. If you're a purist, stick to your lane. If they're all the same category I see some major problems, there.
3 minute cutscene? Laughs in majora's mask.
I don't speedrun, but in several games I have made saves specifically so that I can jump past all the dull bits.
Some examples:
In at least two Zelda games I've had saves just before my favourite bosses.
In Victoria 2 I have a save where I've just unified Germany.
So I can certainly relate to speedrunners wanting to use hacks like these.
The best solution would probably be to mod in a skip button (that would probably take lots of work, but who knows)
Thats pretty much what hacked file is
Super interesting topic
speedrunners are potentially the weirdest thing a human can be to make a living.
Majora's Mask first cycle would like a word with you
I am not a part of the SMS community, but I can’t imagine someone thinking
“We cannot allow people to start after the cutscenes. I enjoy wasting ~6 minutes watching the same cutscene thousands of times because I hate myself”
This also reminds me of the Half Life series.
In the Original, The run starts after the intro cutscene (the train), which conveniently has an "easy way" to get to (it's like one command and done)
The second installment, also has a train cutscene, but the community decided that a save file would be good.
Also Portal, there is a save file that skips about 53 seconds
I should add that you COULD glitch the radio outside of the vault in Portal, or glitch yourself thru the ceiling. Both those methods are faster, and very, very hard to pull off.
But it's like this speedrun.
You COULD save like a second in the beginning, but it's better to have consistency and let more runs played.
Personally I feel that speed runs should have multiple levels of categories involving hacked and unhacked this is not because they were not putting in sufficient effort to get the time but because of the fact that you will have those people who will hack the game in such a way that they will be unbeatable the same thing for preparing a save file in any way that could give you an advantage and the last category should have a zero glitch or exploit run. And obviously some things like the percentage of completion with and without exploits or tools and things like that.
People who didn't want the cutscenes to be skipped obviously haven't speedran the game
In reality it was runners that had been part of it for longer the old heads per se
Weegee played File Select timing dude, ya know, former WR holder
@@kamek7246
Ah yes, successful person did this, so we should all do that as well.
For the criticisms, you forgot one, it removes the incentive to glitch-hunt a skip for those cutscenes
If I had to guess, this is definitely why Hacked File+ was rejected. It arbitrarily excluded cutscenes with known skips. This assumes no other cutscene skips will ever be found.
As an outsider, I think Peach File was the best compromise. Lots of speedgames allow minor savefile prep before timing starts, and this timing method avoids external modification. In an ideal world, Nintendo would have tweaked cutscene skipping in the 3D All-Stars release and the whole community could have just used that instead.
This reads like a high school book report
As an outsider hacked definitely seems the best option. Fuck watching 5:40 seconds of cutscenes when you aren't even doing a minute of gameplay, but being able to skip them still lets you play that 58 seconds and remove the actual issue.
Wilko the madman leading the charge!