Someone who pays $15k for big pilot knows what they are doing, it’s not their first rodeo. The guy who pays $5k for a IWC watch with an ETA movement in it is $4.5k for the dial with the logo. He’s not a watch collector, he is being taken advantage of. Great insight Bill. Thanks
Thanks John, I'm glad you liked it. I don't know why we pay what we do for good mechanical watches; however, since we do pay a lot we should know what we're getting. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks Bill. That must have taken significant time to put together. I watched this a second time with my wife, and IWC is now her favorite Swiss watch brand as I was able to swear to her that I have no desire for and will never in my life purchase an IWC watch. Thanks for your small contribution to my domestic tranquillity!
I think it helps to think of how IWC started. You are correct in stating that IWC was founded by an american, F.A. Jones. Jones partnered with Mr H. Moser to found IWC. Much later, before Richemont's acquisition, IWC made a name for themselves as no frills tool watches. They made watches that were tough and innovative for the era. They made the first Perpetual Calendar that could be fully set by the crown (no pushers) engineered by Kurt Klaus, and they found an affordable way to make a Split Second Chronograph engineered by Richard Habring. I agree that IWC movements are confusing, but something that should be stated is that even with the ETA movements, they dress them up and improve on their performance. If I'm not mistaken, IWC co-created the xxxx-A2 movements with ETA (the highest level of quality for eta movements). I think it's inaccurate to simply state that IWC uses ETA and Selita movements without stating that they are reworked movements. Some sources state that every moving part in an ETA movement is reworked by IWC. As a side note, if you like the aquatimers, take a look at the Deep one and Deep Two.
Hi Daniel, I do try and consider a watch company's heritage, but it doesn't really help ever since the founders and their lineage is long gone and most went out of business during the 'Quartz Crisis' and the only thing in common that they may have with a storied past is the name. Some have been taken over by watch-lovers, like Bovet (Pascal Raffy) and H. Moser (Meylan Family) and Moritz Grossman (Christine Hutter) who have taken the respective companies (or just the name) to new heights with a respect for the watch's heritage. Others, including IWC and Louis Moinet, have done little more than exploit the name so that any history has been rendered moot. I agree that IWC has some watches with movements I really love, but they represent such a small part of the business, they're like sprinkles on a mud pie. I do think that IWC could raise their stock in my opinion by the simple fact of telling buyers exactly what's inside their watches. Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill, this is also an experience I’ve encountered with the IWC brand. While it is undeniable that they make attractive watches, the same cannot be said (in my opinion) about the movements. When I was in the market for a Glashutte Original last year, the Mrs who was along for the ride, took a shine to the Portofino Moonphase 37. I was not as familiar with watches as I am now, but knew enough about IWC’s habit of using ETA and Selita movements. Tried to steer her towards a GO woman’s watch (without success) as I felt it was a significantly better value proposition. The watch enthusiast in me died a little making that purchase, but the smile on the wife’s face was priceless. She still enjoys wearing the watch, and I haven’t the heart to mention anything about the movement to her. A case of “buying what you enjoy wearing”, perhaps?
Bernard, companies can (and do) make beautiful watches with beautiful dials and junk movements. I had such a watch made of pure gold with an ETA movement hidden under another name and rotor logo. I was misled into thinking it was something else. My wife's Lous Vuitton TimeZone has an ETA base movement with a La Fabrique du Temps world time module. It's a great travel watch; but while she wears her Bovet Amadeo everywhere, she doesn't take it on cruises; only Louis... Cheers, Bill
Great video, Bill. Thanks! The IWC dealer here in Adelaide seems aware of the movement issues and mentions without being asked what movement (ETA, Selitta, in house) is in a model without being asked which he doesn't for other brands he stocks. The IWC boutique at MBS is equally open if asked so I think at least some dealers know this complication is an issue for some buyers. I'll have this video ready to go when I next visit the IWC boutique. All the best, Jeremy
Hi Jeremy, it's really not fair to the IWC Dealers who come into contact with the public. Those in Schaffhausen are defaming the brand. Were it the case that IWC Schaffhausen simply noted that they had different tiers for (what amount to) Swatch movements and IWC movements, at clearly different price points, I don't think there'd be a problem. Christopher Ward has both in-house and ETAs/Sellitas and tells the user, what's what. They have a lot more respect than IWC Schaffhausen has now, and I feel bad for IWC owners were exploited unnecessarily by IWC Schaffhausen. Kindest regards, Bill
Dear Bill, IWC is indeed enigmatic. It has great heritage and a host of great horologists, both known and unknown, who have been associated with major IWC developments such as Richard Habring (the Doppelgänger Chronograph) and Kurt Klaus (the DaVinci Perpetual Calendar). The lack of clarity about their movements has very much cost them my business because of my ongoing confusion as to which of their watches have outsourced movements versus in-house movements and my experiences in looking at IWC in ADs. I was looking for a diver. I didn’t want a diver that everybody had so I was purposefully looking at options offered by companies like Jaeger-LeCoultre, Blancpain and IWC. I really liked the Charles Darwin bronze limited edition Aquatimer. It was a bit on the expensive side new ($10,000) but I liked it. I also liked the blue dialed Aquatimer you showed which was half the price but when I found that it had an ETA movement. The whole idea of a model line like the Aquatimer where some of the watches had in-house movements and others had ETA movements turned me off. Paying $10,000 for a watch in such a model line wasn’t the kind of value proposition about which I could be enthusiastic.I ended up buying an Omega 1200m Ploprof with the co-axial escapement 8500 movement and that was the first loss IWC had of my business. I have a blue dialed Orologio Calamai sport watch with a Sellita movement from a small aviation themed Italian company but not a blue dialed dressier watch. I found a Czapek limited edition blue dialed watch that hit every horological button I have but at $28,000 it was more than I wanted to spend. I found online an IWC watch that appeared to have many (but not the finishing) of the Czapek: a blue dialed Portuguieser 150th Anniversary model with an in-house IWC movement. At $10,000+/- it had most but not all of what the Czapek offered at a more comfortable price. The specific model that brought me in the door was not available and I was shown other Portuguiesers with the same experience as I had when I was looking at the IWC dive watches: when the same model line includes both in-house and outsourced movements the clarity of the model line is diluted for me and my response is not to choose a model within that line and to look at other manufacturers. I am not anti-ETA and I understand that IWC probably uses either its own modules or Dubuis Depraz modules. Like you, my first grievance is lack of transparency. My second grievance is that it is easier for me to be excited about a watch in a model line where every watch has an in-house movement than in a model line where some do and some don’t. ETAs have some real positive advantages and can sometimes be justified as a better choice in a particular watch for whatever reason but when one model line includes both ETA movements and in-house movements with the phony baloney description of the ETA movements as “IWC Calibre xxx” that is bordering on subterfuge. The minimum should be “ETA xxx with in-house module for xxx complications” or “ETA xxx with Dubuis Dupraz module for xxx complications.” Thanks for all of your thought and hard work.
Once again, Howard, you have succinctly expressed my one an only point about having less-expensive off-the-shelf movements by ETA and Sellita-just tell the buyer the name and caliber of the movement! Somehow the marketing wonks don't think those who pay thousands of euros for their watches will be wise to them. Time to get real! Some of the excellent watches and movements (2.5Hz ... etc) end up with the same low opinion as their watches with ETA and Sellita movements...and stay away from IWC because they see them as lying snakes. Thank you marketing for undermining a brand with nothing left but history. It reminds me of the destitute nobles whose titles once meant something and now are just a joke. Kindest regards, Bill
WatchArtSci I have become interested in Mühle-Glashutte watches. The values seem almost unparalleled even at full retail and are a steal at their actual available selling prices. Honest fair priced horology is very vibrant in Germany at companies like Sinn, Ninchritz, Stowa, and Laco among others. I know that you are a fan of Glashütte Original but they are in a much pricier category because they use in-house movements. I can buy a Mühle-Glashütte world timer and a Mühle-Glashütte bronze dive/water resistant watch for a combined total of $4,000. I have not seen them in the flesh but they look great online. Too many watches, too little wrist time.
Yes, Howard, those do seem like a tempting purchase. Mühle-Glashutte is a brand I intend to find out more about...I'll be in Germany next month, and I may get a chance then to handle some.... Cheers, Bill
I really like my IWC Ingenieur chronograph, it's from the older generation when the Ingenieur line had the integrated cases like the Genta designed original. They make great watches but their prices are crazy. I got mine preowned and saved a bundle.
Marceau, it's really not fair to IWC Schaffhausen owners to find that their once valued watches have been devalued by feckless policies in Schaffhausen. IWC has some wonderful watches in the Pallweber and others with very strong IWC movements. Perhaps Richemont will have them shift from ETA and Sellita bases to those made by ValFleurier and then have 'sort-of' in-house movements manufactured by one of Richemont's holdings. Hang in there and take care, Bill
Hey Bill, complicated is indeed an appropriate word. One of the veey first watches I wanted, before I really knew more about movements was the Pilot's Watch Chronograph. After seeing better value for money propositions like the Longines Avigation Bigeye, my desire to own one has largely faded. I will admit, however, that I still like the Mark 18 better than any other similar pilot watch out there. In addition, if only the Portugieser chronograph were a better value proposition - too much to pay for a valjoux movement - then I'd love to own one. Apart from those two, haven't seen any other models from IWC that have appealed to me.
Hey Gilberto, indeed this business is complicated. I was looking at a green IWC Spitfire Pilot ( www.iwc.com/us/en/watch-collections/pilot-watches/iw326802-pilot_s-watch-automatic-spitfire.html ) but at almost $5,000 for a watch with a Sellita ... just cannot see it.Take care, Bill
Great video Bill. I like IWC and give them the credit for being the in market for so long. They offer very reliable pieces but at very high prices mainly when non in-house movements are involved as you mentioned. In my opinion, the IWCs to have are the Portugiesers mainly the perpetual calendar models which offer in-house movement, a fully integrated calendar mechanism and most importantly at a fair price. My 0.02 cents. Best, Amintas
Hi Amintas, I almost called the article IWC-The Bipolar Watch Company. The less expensive ETA/Sellita models are far more expensive than other brands with ETAs, etc. movements, such as Christopher Ward. However, Chris. Ward tells you what's in their watches and gives a much better price. What the market wonks at IWC have done is to diminish the brand both by 1) using [relatively] cheap movements and 2) disguising them as IWC manufactured calibers. For years Panerai did the same thing as well as other watch companies. When a watch company does that, I just don't trust them any more. So even though Panerai now has all in-house movements, I still don't trust them to produce anything but the cheapest products. Same with IWC. I have no desire to ever do business with IWC even though I'd be the first to acknowledge they have created some excellent movements. But there's that deceptive culture .... my hunch is the next move on the low end is to replace Sellita and ETA movements with Richemont-supplied calibers from ValFleurier. Your remarkable Parmigiani Fleurie Rattrapante is from a brand you never have to think twice about. Cheers Bill
Hi Bruce, thanks man! I like the green dial Spitfires like in this article: www.hodinkee.com/articles/iwc-pilots-watch-spitfire-collection-introducing Cheers, Bill
IWC, seems needlessly 'complex', but, 'horses for courses I suppose and bearing in mind that you' always' have to know what you're doing ! Once again Bill thanks for the knowledgeable insight. 'CHEERS'!
I think that IWC goes along with a partially planned agenda...and now that the Richemont Group is making basic movements at ValFleurier perhaps these 'in-house' movements may begin replacing ETA and Sellita movements at IWC. I guess we'll just have to watch the show and see what happens. Cheers, Bill
Thanks, Bill for the informative video, I was wondering about IWC for a while, and the Pallweber is just a magnificent watch that is similar to the Zeitwerk but almost half price. I think IWC is doing the ETA and Selita movements to compete in that segment, but it's hurting their upper segment watches, I think they should choose a segment and concentrate on it. Have a great weekend! Bes, Abduk
Hi Abdul, here's my hunch: Goodbye ETA and Hello ValFleurier!! Just a hunch for get the price lower (relatively speaking) and the the illusion of an 'in-house.' Time will tell. Cheers, Bill ... PS: I like the Pallweber a lot!!!
Thanks Mike. I always try to be "pro-collector' and not 'anti-watch company' but sometimes collectors feel that any comments not in favor of 'their watch brand' is against the company. I actually like all kinds of watches; some expensive and some not. What I don't like is anything that is deceptive ... which is simply being 'pro-collector.' Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill, Very informative as always but you raise a very relevant point. What are IWC trying to do? Genius or folly? To me, IWC seems to have a very strange brand management strategy. Each category seems to comprise some pretty complex horology coupled to a matching five figure price sitting next to Sellita/ETA based models costing a few thousand dollars - considerably less.. The brand tends to cater to the prestige conscious buyer prepared to pay for brand recognition. At the higher end, prices come close to preowned (condition1) Patek’s or APs while the IWC brand shares it’s name and even models with far cheaper offerings - Ingenieur, Portugieser, Portofino. You’d never see this confusion with an AP or PP. I’m puzzled at what IWC is trying to do here. Are they making so much money on the lower priced watches they can afford slow sales on the higher level watches that boost the low end sales? I’d be tempted only to pay for a lower end IWC then feel good I’d be wearing a luxury prestige watch (most of them look gorgeous!), for much less money. Care to shed some more light here?
I swear MrRea that "IWC" stands for "I Want Clarity!" They are the most schizophrenic brand I know. Their reputation was built on great watchmaking; not stuffing their cases with cheap movements. Go figure. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
Bill, Another highly informative video. Thank you. Like you aptly demonstrate, buying an expensive IWC really makes little sense since almost every range has models with either basic ETA or more basic (inexpensive) Selita movements that are seen as less horologically superior. Some movements may have been reworked but the basics remain. One could end up paying Patek Philippe money and risk having someone mistake it for a $4000 Selita driven model. It seems like a cynical exercise in brand exploitation.
Have you thought of compiling all that stuff, especially the fact sheets / tables, into a book? I would buy it. And it would take a load of research off my back :) Have fun times Mr. Bill Ah, btw, i want to apply to the Prentetious Wtchmakers. I am in training.
Hey No Idea, you have the Right Idea! Have fun! Yes, do join us at Pretentious Watchmakers ... just yesterday I started working on the Military Watch Project... ruclips.net/video/yAjiT7CyA9M/видео.html I have thought of your book idea...The problem with a book and buying watches is that they change, and by the time the ink is dry on a book, a whole new slew of watches and/or movements have popped up. Before I retired I had published 63 books, and they're a lot of work! (None about watches...) For the time being, I'll just stick with FB pages and videos. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks Christopher! I too like the Pallweber, and I think I like the white one better than the blue one I pictured. It shows what IWC can do without any help from it's unnamed friends from ETA and Sellita. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci I also like the Pallweber. More so now I see the display caseback and see it is "only" $23K. Depending on the watch blogs I'm reading on the day some days I think Swatch are expensive, other days that anything under a million is a bargain.
I agree that every watchmaker should be open and honest about the movement in their watches. There is nothing wrong with an ETA or Sellita movement if the price is right, and I don't think that's the case with IWCs ETA-powered pieces. One good example in the watch world is Sinn. Have a look at sinn.de; for every watch, you get information about the movement, and if it is one of their modified ETA, they state which ETA it is based on. Their highest end watches are priced similarly to IWC lower end watches. This is one of the reasons my first (basic) luxury watch was a Sinn. Having said that, we should perhaps take into consideration the degree of modifications done. Is it a stock ETA, a chronometer grade ETA, is it only the basic layout that is ETA, with IWCs own escapement and winding system etc? What about finish and decoration? This is difficult to judge as long as IWC keeps quiet about these things. And remember, brands such as Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin once used movements from Lemania and Jaeger-LeCoultre (both less expensive watches than PP and VC) as base movements, and nobody dismisses these models today.
Hi Amund, the point is very much what you say. Whether good or bad, if you know what you're getting, you know what you're paying for. Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill, I wonder if IWC would respond to you if you asked for specifics on what they do to abase ETA? ETA makes a reliable movement after all. When I look at something likemy Piguet 1185 (Blancpain) it is highly decorated - perlage, bevels etc. Perhaps IWC (and others) do the same to an ETA, adjust it in 5 or 6 positions which would justify a higher price. Trouble is we don't know what they do and maybe they'd confide in an expert such as yourself.
Hi Porsche Mav ... the Frédéric Piguet 1185 and the relationship between Frédéric Piguet and Blancpain is wholly different from that of IWC and ETA. In 1985, Frédéric Piguet purchased Blancpain, and later Swatch purchased both Frédéric Piguet and Blancpain, and Frédéric Piguet became Manufacture Blancpain. In a way, Blancpain and FP were already a watch manufacturer and movement-maker package when they came under the Swatch wing. Now Urban Jürgensen uses the FP 1160 that they note has been 'enhanced' by UJ. Since the FP 1160 runs at 3Hz (21,600) and the Urban Jürgensen version runs at 4Hz (28,800) and sports a gold rotor ... so, yeah ... I guess it was enhanced. What's more, Urban Jürgensen lets the buyer know from the get-go that the movement base in their Big8 is the FP 1160. All IWC has to do is to do is the same. Just let the buyer know when they're spending their money on. As for me asking IWC how they 'enhance' the Sellita SW300 and ETAs that they use ... I'd be happy to....who do I contact? Cheers, Bill
Bill, May I ask.... what’s wrong with an ETA movement ? IWC is an amazing watch company, right up there with anyone. Their Jubilee collection was pure magic. Their pilot watches are the best in the business. IWC is a watchman’s watch company. My first ‘real’ watch was an IWC. They are a specific company off course, not for everyone.
Hi Craig, there's nothing wrong with ETA movements ... nor Sellita movements. They're mass produced, relatively cheap, and they keep decent time ... usually at 4Hz. I'm glad to hear that you like IWC and you like ETA movements. Tell me this, though, Craig: If ETA and Sellita movements are so good, why doesn't IWC tell the consumer they are used in IWC watches? Take care, Bill
You’re a watch nerd like me Bill, and that’s why I love your channel. I live in New England and I ware watches not for the flash or the glamour, but more for the art of horology. All horological nerds know what movements are running these timepiece. We all know that IWC is no movement master, they just make wonderfully design watches for grownups. I love that.
Craig, IWC has some excellent movements ... check out the one in their Pallweber and some of the 2.5Hz movements. They only shoot themselves in the foot when they try and hide the fact that they're using relatively cheap movements from Swatch and Sellita. In love with their green Spitfire ... but who can trust a company that only gives you what they want you to see and hides their 'closet cases?' Live in New England myself ... and wear mechanicals all the time. Cheers, Bill
Hi SWC, it probably comes down to what's cheaper. Ironically, IWC makes some excellent movements, and my hunch is that in the not-too-distant further we'll be seeing ETA movements replaced by ValFleurier. Cheers, Bill
Hi Ilias, I'm with you about overpaying for any watch. For around $150 I can buy an ETA, a watch case, a dial & hands-slap on a band, and I've got what some of these companies are charging thousands for. I don't mind paying a lot of a hand-made watch by a master watchmaker; but if I want a watch made by a smart robotic process I can get in an Apple Watch or even my iPhone-and they crank them out by the millions. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsciBill you are absolutely correct.Please make more informative videos like this because everybody must know about movements and the real prices.
Hey Paul, yeah they're all overpriced ... at least most are. My favorite is still Habring2 for a hand-made watch by a master watchmaker for around $5k. Check 'em out. Someday I'll get an Omega for the co-axial escapement. Cheers, Bill
Thanks for the video Bill! I didn't care too much for IWC in the past, but lately i have my eyes on the old Da Vinci Perpetual Calendar Chronograph. (IW375030) For €6-7000 i think it's good value, and quite like the look of it with the black dial..
Alex, that model is running on an ETA 7750-and in used condition. Here's an automatic for $318, brand new with a perpetual calendar, an in-house movement and a hand-date. ( www.chrono24.com/seiko/seiko-chronograph-perpetual-calendar--id9994126.htm ) If you want a watch costing €6-7k ... with a perpetual calendar ... there are a lot more options...and for a lot less money than IWC.The Da Vinci design is a nice one, but with an ETA movement (...with some stupid, meaningless IWC caliber...) ...it's your money. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci Thank you for the good advice. I was aware of the 7750 base, and the Kurt Klaus calendar module lets you set all the hands in sync with just the crown, without additional pusher adjusters... btw i think that Seiko has a quarz movement..anyway i continue my search for a good value perpetual calendar.. All the best!
Someone who pays $15k for big pilot knows what they are doing, it’s not their first rodeo. The guy who pays $5k for a IWC watch with an ETA movement in it is $4.5k for the dial with the logo. He’s not a watch collector, he is being taken advantage of. Great insight Bill. Thanks
Thanks John, I'm glad you liked it. I don't know why we pay what we do for good mechanical watches; however, since we do pay a lot we should know what we're getting. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks Bill. That must have taken significant time to put together. I watched this a second time with my wife, and IWC is now her favorite Swiss watch brand as I was able to swear to her that I have no desire for and will never in my life purchase an IWC watch. Thanks for your small contribution to my domestic tranquillity!
Hey Jeffery, thanks man! Maybe I'll go into Coulples Therapy for watch collectors...Take care, Bill
I think it helps to think of how IWC started. You are correct in stating that IWC was founded by an american, F.A. Jones. Jones partnered with Mr H. Moser to found IWC. Much later, before Richemont's acquisition, IWC made a name for themselves as no frills tool watches. They made watches that were tough and innovative for the era. They made the first Perpetual Calendar that could be fully set by the crown (no pushers) engineered by Kurt Klaus, and they found an affordable way to make a Split Second Chronograph engineered by Richard Habring.
I agree that IWC movements are confusing, but something that should be stated is that even with the ETA movements, they dress them up and improve on their performance. If I'm not mistaken, IWC co-created the xxxx-A2 movements with ETA (the highest level of quality for eta movements). I think it's inaccurate to simply state that IWC uses ETA and Selita movements without stating that they are reworked movements. Some sources state that every moving part in an ETA movement is reworked by IWC.
As a side note, if you like the aquatimers, take a look at the Deep one and Deep Two.
Hi Daniel, I do try and consider a watch company's heritage, but it doesn't really help ever since the founders and their lineage is long gone and most went out of business during the 'Quartz Crisis' and the only thing in common that they may have with a storied past is the name. Some have been taken over by watch-lovers, like Bovet (Pascal Raffy) and H. Moser (Meylan Family) and Moritz Grossman (Christine Hutter) who have taken the respective companies (or just the name) to new heights with a respect for the watch's heritage. Others, including IWC and Louis Moinet, have done little more than exploit the name so that any history has been rendered moot. I agree that IWC has some watches with movements I really love, but they represent such a small part of the business, they're like sprinkles on a mud pie. I do think that IWC could raise their stock in my opinion by the simple fact of telling buyers exactly what's inside their watches. Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill, this is also an experience I’ve encountered with the IWC brand. While it is undeniable that they make attractive watches, the same cannot be said (in my opinion) about the movements. When I was in the market for a Glashutte Original last year, the Mrs who was along for the ride, took a shine to the Portofino Moonphase 37. I was not as familiar with watches as I am now, but knew enough about IWC’s habit of using ETA and Selita movements. Tried to steer her towards a GO woman’s watch (without success) as I felt it was a significantly better value proposition. The watch enthusiast in me died a little making that purchase, but the smile on the wife’s face was priceless. She still enjoys wearing the watch, and I haven’t the heart to mention anything about the movement to her. A case of “buying what you enjoy wearing”, perhaps?
Bernard, companies can (and do) make beautiful watches with beautiful dials and junk movements. I had such a watch made of pure gold with an ETA movement hidden under another name and rotor logo. I was misled into thinking it was something else. My wife's Lous Vuitton TimeZone has an ETA base movement with a La Fabrique du Temps world time module. It's a great travel watch; but while she wears her Bovet Amadeo everywhere, she doesn't take it on cruises; only Louis... Cheers, Bill
Great video, Bill. Thanks! The IWC dealer here in Adelaide seems aware of the movement issues and mentions without being asked what movement (ETA, Selitta, in house) is in a model without being asked which he doesn't for other brands he stocks. The IWC boutique at MBS is equally open if asked so I think at least some dealers know this complication is an issue for some buyers. I'll have this video ready to go when I next visit the IWC boutique. All the best, Jeremy
Hi Jeremy, it's really not fair to the IWC Dealers who come into contact with the public. Those in Schaffhausen are defaming the brand. Were it the case that IWC Schaffhausen simply noted that they had different tiers for (what amount to) Swatch movements and IWC movements, at clearly different price points, I don't think there'd be a problem. Christopher Ward has both in-house and ETAs/Sellitas and tells the user, what's what. They have a lot more respect than IWC Schaffhausen has now, and I feel bad for IWC owners were exploited unnecessarily by IWC Schaffhausen. Kindest regards, Bill
Dear Bill, IWC is indeed enigmatic. It has great heritage and a host of great horologists, both known and unknown, who have been associated with major IWC developments such as Richard Habring (the Doppelgänger Chronograph) and Kurt Klaus (the DaVinci Perpetual Calendar). The lack of clarity about their movements has very much cost them my business because of my ongoing confusion as to which of their watches have outsourced movements versus in-house movements and my experiences in looking at IWC in ADs. I was looking for a diver. I didn’t want a diver that everybody had so I was purposefully looking at options offered by companies like Jaeger-LeCoultre, Blancpain and IWC. I really liked the Charles Darwin bronze limited edition Aquatimer. It was a bit on the expensive side new ($10,000) but I liked it. I also liked the blue dialed Aquatimer you showed which was half the price but when I found that it had an ETA movement. The whole idea of a model line like the Aquatimer where some of the watches had in-house movements and others had ETA movements turned me off. Paying $10,000 for a watch in such a model line wasn’t the kind of value proposition about which I could be enthusiastic.I ended up buying an Omega 1200m Ploprof with the co-axial escapement 8500 movement and that was the first loss IWC had of my business. I have a blue dialed Orologio Calamai sport watch with a Sellita movement from a small aviation themed Italian company but not a blue dialed dressier watch. I found a Czapek limited edition blue dialed watch that hit every horological button I have but at $28,000 it was more than I wanted to spend. I found online an IWC watch that appeared to have many (but not the finishing) of the Czapek: a blue dialed Portuguieser 150th Anniversary model with an in-house IWC movement. At $10,000+/- it had most but not all of what the Czapek offered at a more comfortable price. The specific model that brought me in the door was not available and I was shown other Portuguiesers with the same experience as I had when I was looking at the IWC dive watches: when the same model line includes both in-house and outsourced movements the clarity of the model line is diluted for me and my response is not to choose a model within that line and to look at other manufacturers. I am not anti-ETA and I understand that IWC probably uses either its own modules or Dubuis Depraz modules. Like you, my first grievance is lack of transparency. My second grievance is that it is easier for me to be excited about a watch in a model line where every watch has an in-house movement than in a model line where some do and some don’t. ETAs have some real positive advantages and can sometimes be justified as a better choice in a particular watch for whatever reason but when one model line includes both ETA movements and in-house movements with the phony baloney description of the ETA movements as “IWC Calibre xxx” that is bordering on subterfuge. The minimum should be “ETA xxx with in-house module for xxx complications” or “ETA xxx with Dubuis Dupraz module for xxx complications.” Thanks for all of your thought and hard work.
Once again, Howard, you have succinctly expressed my one an only point about having less-expensive off-the-shelf movements by ETA and Sellita-just tell the buyer the name and caliber of the movement! Somehow the marketing wonks don't think those who pay thousands of euros for their watches will be wise to them. Time to get real! Some of the excellent watches and movements (2.5Hz ... etc) end up with the same low opinion as their watches with ETA and Sellita movements...and stay away from IWC because they see them as lying snakes. Thank you marketing for undermining a brand with nothing left but history. It reminds me of the destitute nobles whose titles once meant something and now are just a joke. Kindest regards, Bill
WatchArtSci I have become interested in Mühle-Glashutte watches. The values seem almost unparalleled even at full retail and are a steal at their actual available selling prices. Honest fair priced horology is very vibrant in Germany at companies like Sinn, Ninchritz, Stowa, and Laco among others. I know that you are a fan of Glashütte Original but they are in a much pricier category because they use in-house movements. I can buy a Mühle-Glashütte world timer and a Mühle-Glashütte bronze dive/water resistant watch for a combined total of $4,000. I have not seen them in the flesh but they look great online. Too many watches, too little wrist time.
Yes, Howard, those do seem like a tempting purchase. Mühle-Glashutte is a brand I intend to find out more about...I'll be in Germany next month, and I may get a chance then to handle some.... Cheers, Bill
I really like my IWC Ingenieur chronograph, it's from the older generation when the Ingenieur line had the integrated cases like the Genta designed original. They make great watches but their prices are crazy. I got mine preowned and saved a bundle.
Marceau, it's really not fair to IWC Schaffhausen owners to find that their once valued watches have been devalued by feckless policies in Schaffhausen. IWC has some wonderful watches in the Pallweber and others with very strong IWC movements. Perhaps Richemont will have them shift from ETA and Sellita bases to those made by ValFleurier and then have 'sort-of' in-house movements manufactured by one of Richemont's holdings. Hang in there and take care, Bill
Hey Bill, complicated is indeed an appropriate word. One of the veey first watches I wanted, before I really knew more about movements was the Pilot's Watch Chronograph. After seeing better value for money propositions like the Longines Avigation Bigeye, my desire to own one has largely faded.
I will admit, however, that I still like the Mark 18 better than any other similar pilot watch out there. In addition, if only the Portugieser chronograph were a better value proposition - too much to pay for a valjoux movement - then I'd love to own one.
Apart from those two, haven't seen any other models from IWC that have appealed to me.
Hey Gilberto, indeed this business is complicated. I was looking at a green IWC Spitfire Pilot ( www.iwc.com/us/en/watch-collections/pilot-watches/iw326802-pilot_s-watch-automatic-spitfire.html ) but at almost $5,000 for a watch with a Sellita ... just cannot see it.Take care, Bill
Great video Bill.
I like IWC and give them the credit for being the in market for so long.
They offer very reliable pieces but at very high prices mainly when non in-house movements are involved as you mentioned.
In my opinion, the IWCs to have are the Portugiesers mainly the perpetual calendar models which offer in-house movement, a fully integrated calendar mechanism and most importantly at a fair price.
My 0.02 cents.
Best,
Amintas
Hi Amintas, I almost called the article IWC-The Bipolar Watch Company. The less expensive ETA/Sellita models are far more expensive than other brands with ETAs, etc. movements, such as Christopher Ward. However, Chris. Ward tells you what's in their watches and gives a much better price. What the market wonks at IWC have done is to diminish the brand both by 1) using [relatively] cheap movements and 2) disguising them as IWC manufactured calibers. For years Panerai did the same thing as well as other watch companies. When a watch company does that, I just don't trust them any more. So even though Panerai now has all in-house movements, I still don't trust them to produce anything but the cheapest products. Same with IWC. I have no desire to ever do business with IWC even though I'd be the first to acknowledge they have created some excellent movements. But there's that deceptive culture .... my hunch is the next move on the low end is to replace Sellita and ETA movements with Richemont-supplied calibers from ValFleurier. Your remarkable Parmigiani Fleurie Rattrapante is from a brand you never have to think twice about. Cheers Bill
Great video Bill. I always enjoy your brand overviews. I really like the new Spitfires with the in house movements.
Hi Bruce, thanks man! I like the green dial Spitfires like in this article: www.hodinkee.com/articles/iwc-pilots-watch-spitfire-collection-introducing Cheers, Bill
IWC, seems needlessly 'complex', but, 'horses for courses I suppose and bearing in mind that you' always' have to know what you're doing ! Once again Bill thanks for the knowledgeable insight. 'CHEERS'!
I think that IWC goes along with a partially planned agenda...and now that the Richemont Group is making basic movements at ValFleurier perhaps these 'in-house' movements may begin replacing ETA and Sellita movements at IWC. I guess we'll just have to watch the show and see what happens. Cheers, Bill
Great video Bill.
My pleasure NSsomething. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks, Bill for the informative video, I was wondering about IWC for a while, and the Pallweber is just a magnificent watch that is similar to the Zeitwerk but almost half price. I think IWC is doing the ETA and Selita movements to compete in that segment, but it's hurting their upper segment watches, I think they should choose a segment and concentrate on it. Have a great weekend! Bes, Abduk
Hi Abdul, here's my hunch: Goodbye ETA and Hello ValFleurier!! Just a hunch for get the price lower (relatively speaking) and the the illusion of an 'in-house.' Time will tell. Cheers, Bill ... PS: I like the Pallweber a lot!!!
Fair review. Well done.
Thanks Mike. I always try to be "pro-collector' and not 'anti-watch company' but sometimes collectors feel that any comments not in favor of 'their watch brand' is against the company. I actually like all kinds of watches; some expensive and some not. What I don't like is anything that is deceptive ... which is simply being 'pro-collector.' Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill, Very informative as always but you raise a very relevant point. What are IWC trying to do? Genius or folly?
To me, IWC seems to have a very strange brand management strategy. Each category seems to comprise some pretty complex horology coupled to a matching five figure price sitting next to Sellita/ETA based models costing a few thousand dollars - considerably less..
The brand tends to cater to the prestige conscious buyer prepared to pay for brand recognition. At the higher end, prices come close to preowned (condition1) Patek’s or APs while the IWC brand shares it’s name and even models with far cheaper offerings - Ingenieur, Portugieser, Portofino. You’d never see this confusion with an AP or PP. I’m puzzled at what IWC is trying to do here.
Are they making so much money on the lower priced watches they can afford slow sales on the higher level watches that boost the low end sales? I’d be tempted only to pay for a lower end IWC then feel good I’d be wearing a luxury prestige watch (most of them look gorgeous!), for much less money. Care to shed some more light here?
I swear MrRea that "IWC" stands for "I Want Clarity!" They are the most schizophrenic brand I know. Their reputation was built on great watchmaking; not stuffing their cases with cheap movements. Go figure. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷
@@watchartsci So true!!😂
Bill,
If you see me with this brand, you will know:
I
W as
C onfused
Hey Redskin, it happens to everyone! Take care, Bill
Bill,
Another highly informative video. Thank you.
Like you aptly demonstrate, buying an expensive IWC really makes little sense since almost every range has models with either basic ETA or more basic (inexpensive) Selita movements that are seen as less horologically superior. Some movements may have been reworked but the basics remain.
One could end up paying Patek Philippe money and risk having someone mistake it for a $4000 Selita driven model. It seems like a cynical exercise in brand exploitation.
If IWC makes their own movement, they're a watch manufacturer. If they use others, they're an assembler. Just know which is which. Cheers, Bill
WatchArtSci Thanks Bill. Perhaps IWC should hear this message!🤗
It's Complicated, great explanation
Thanks Luca! I wasn't sure how to refer to IWC...so since it was complicated to explain, that's what I used. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks for this video. Very informative.
As always CW, it's my pleasure. Kindest regards, Bill
Have you thought of compiling all that stuff, especially the fact sheets / tables, into a book? I would buy it. And it would take a load of research off my back :) Have fun times Mr. Bill
Ah, btw, i want to apply to the Prentetious Wtchmakers. I am in training.
Hey No Idea, you have the Right Idea! Have fun! Yes, do join us at Pretentious Watchmakers ... just yesterday I started working on the Military Watch Project... ruclips.net/video/yAjiT7CyA9M/видео.html I have thought of your book idea...The problem with a book and buying watches is that they change, and by the time the ink is dry on a book, a whole new slew of watches and/or movements have popped up. Before I retired I had published 63 books, and they're a lot of work! (None about watches...) For the time being, I'll just stick with FB pages and videos. Kindest regards, Bill
Great insight. Thanks,.
Hey Nelson, my pleasure! Kindest regards, Bill
Great video, Bill - Thanks for the deep dive into IWC - I really like the Pallweber.
Thanks Christopher! I too like the Pallweber, and I think I like the white one better than the blue one I pictured. It shows what IWC can do without any help from it's unnamed friends from ETA and Sellita. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci I also like the Pallweber. More so now I see the display caseback and see it is "only" $23K. Depending on the watch blogs I'm reading on the day some days I think Swatch are expensive, other days that anything under a million is a bargain.
I agree that every watchmaker should be open and honest about the movement in their watches. There is nothing wrong with an ETA or Sellita movement if the price is right, and I don't think that's the case with IWCs ETA-powered pieces. One good example in the watch world is Sinn. Have a look at sinn.de; for every watch, you get information about the movement, and if it is one of their modified ETA, they state which ETA it is based on. Their highest end watches are priced similarly to IWC lower end watches. This is one of the reasons my first (basic) luxury watch was a Sinn.
Having said that, we should perhaps take into consideration the degree of modifications done. Is it a stock ETA, a chronometer grade ETA, is it only the basic layout that is ETA, with IWCs own escapement and winding system etc? What about finish and decoration? This is difficult to judge as long as IWC keeps quiet about these things.
And remember, brands such as Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin once used movements from Lemania and Jaeger-LeCoultre (both less expensive watches than PP and VC) as base movements, and nobody dismisses these models today.
Hi Amund, the point is very much what you say. Whether good or bad, if you know what you're getting, you know what you're paying for. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks Bill very interesting vid and very great efforts you made my day special ✌️ peace
As always Doc, it's my pleasure. Peace to you too, Bill
I just found this. Yes a mess on movements.
That’s why I would never buy one. They are not telling the truth.
Great video Bill.
If there's duplicity in one area, Tim, it's probably in others. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hi Bill, I wonder if IWC would respond to you if you asked for specifics on what they do to abase ETA? ETA makes a reliable movement after all. When I look at something likemy Piguet 1185 (Blancpain) it is highly decorated - perlage, bevels etc. Perhaps IWC (and others) do the same to an ETA, adjust it in 5 or 6 positions which would justify a higher price. Trouble is we don't know what they do and maybe they'd confide in an expert such as yourself.
Hi Porsche Mav ... the Frédéric Piguet 1185 and the relationship between Frédéric Piguet and Blancpain is wholly different from that of IWC and ETA. In 1985, Frédéric Piguet purchased Blancpain, and later Swatch purchased both Frédéric Piguet and Blancpain, and Frédéric Piguet became Manufacture Blancpain. In a way, Blancpain and FP were already a watch manufacturer and movement-maker package when they came under the Swatch wing. Now Urban Jürgensen uses the FP 1160 that they note has been 'enhanced' by UJ. Since the FP 1160 runs at 3Hz (21,600) and the Urban Jürgensen version runs at 4Hz (28,800) and sports a gold rotor ... so, yeah ... I guess it was enhanced. What's more, Urban Jürgensen lets the buyer know from the get-go that the movement base in their Big8 is the FP 1160. All IWC has to do is to do is the same. Just let the buyer know when they're spending their money on. As for me asking IWC how they 'enhance' the Sellita SW300 and ETAs that they use ... I'd be happy to....who do I contact? Cheers, Bill
Bill, May I ask.... what’s wrong with an ETA movement ? IWC is an amazing watch company, right up there with anyone. Their Jubilee collection was pure magic. Their pilot watches are the best in the business. IWC is a watchman’s watch company. My first ‘real’ watch was an IWC. They are a specific company off course, not for everyone.
Hi Craig, there's nothing wrong with ETA movements ... nor Sellita movements. They're mass produced, relatively cheap, and they keep decent time ... usually at 4Hz. I'm glad to hear that you like IWC and you like ETA movements. Tell me this, though, Craig: If ETA and Sellita movements are so good, why doesn't IWC tell the consumer they are used in IWC watches? Take care, Bill
You’re a watch nerd like me Bill, and that’s why I love your channel. I live in New England and I ware watches not for the flash or the glamour, but more for the art of horology. All horological nerds know what movements are running these timepiece. We all know that IWC is no movement master, they just make wonderfully design watches for grownups. I love that.
Craig, IWC has some excellent movements ... check out the one in their Pallweber and some of the 2.5Hz movements. They only shoot themselves in the foot when they try and hide the fact that they're using relatively cheap movements from Swatch and Sellita. In love with their green Spitfire ... but who can trust a company that only gives you what they want you to see and hides their 'closet cases?' Live in New England myself ... and wear mechanicals all the time. Cheers, Bill
IWC's argument that they heavily modify the eta and selitta movements has worn really thin with me. Hey IWC - you didnt make the movement
Hi SWC, it probably comes down to what's cheaper. Ironically, IWC makes some excellent movements, and my hunch is that in the not-too-distant further we'll be seeing ETA movements replaced by ValFleurier. Cheers, Bill
Hi Bill great video!! I am a watch lover but to pay $6000 or $7000 for a sellita movement this is crazy.In my opinion IWC makes overpriced watches.
Hi Ilias, I'm with you about overpaying for any watch. For around $150 I can buy an ETA, a watch case, a dial & hands-slap on a band, and I've got what some of these companies are charging thousands for. I don't mind paying a lot of a hand-made watch by a master watchmaker; but if I want a watch made by a smart robotic process I can get in an Apple Watch or even my iPhone-and they crank them out by the millions. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsciBill you are absolutely correct.Please make more informative videos like this because everybody must know about movements and the real prices.
You got it Ilias! And if you see any that I should follow up, let me know. Cheers, Bill
Thx for this review. IWC just seems over priced. I rather buy Omega or several other brands that have better value for similar quality.
Hey Paul, yeah they're all overpriced ... at least most are. My favorite is still Habring2 for a hand-made watch by a master watchmaker for around $5k. Check 'em out. Someday I'll get an Omega for the co-axial escapement. Cheers, Bill
Thanks for the video Bill!
I didn't care too much for IWC in the past, but lately i have my eyes on the old Da Vinci Perpetual Calendar Chronograph. (IW375030) For €6-7000 i think it's good value, and quite like the look of it with the black dial..
Alex, that model is running on an ETA 7750-and in used condition. Here's an automatic for $318, brand new with a perpetual calendar, an in-house movement and a hand-date. ( www.chrono24.com/seiko/seiko-chronograph-perpetual-calendar--id9994126.htm ) If you want a watch costing €6-7k ... with a perpetual calendar ... there are a lot more options...and for a lot less money than IWC.The Da Vinci design is a nice one, but with an ETA movement (...with some stupid, meaningless IWC caliber...) ...it's your money. Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci Thank you for the good advice. I was aware of the 7750 base, and the Kurt Klaus calendar module lets you set all the hands in sync with just the crown, without additional pusher adjusters... btw i think that Seiko has a quarz movement..anyway i continue my search for a good value perpetual calendar..
All the best!