How Elden Ring Shadow of the Erdtree is the Peak of Souls World Design
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- The release of Elden Rings highly anticipated (and GOTY contender) DLC changes it's approach to world and level design, hiding secrets and rewards in a new overall philosophy for the studio. While other conversations rage about difficulty and spark controversies, there's a much more interesting one to be had surrounding the evolution of the genre in design and one that I want to tackle.
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Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:53 An Evolution in Souls-Like Design
03:22 World Design
14:26 A Shift in Focus
16:50 Content and Focus 
Игры
![Marika's Ascension was NOT legitimate; AND IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING [Elden Ring Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uo7Froo5xS8/mqdefault.jpg)
If you want to hear me criticize the rewards, encounters, and progression of the world, check out my other video. ruclips.net/video/OfWzZww3uBI/видео.html
Mistakes were made on which version of this video went public, so pelase imagine that around the 8 minute mark I show the map of Castle Front and the path north, the two paths south, and of course, the entrance to Castle Ensis. My apologies, and thank you so much for watching. Also, have a great day and remember to subscribe!
We'll never forgive you! Well, only if we get a bonus video as an apology lol
Hours and hours of horse riding with no content in sight isnt “peak”
FromSoft does signpointing too, it's simply not as obvious/obnoxious as in other games. They often use candles, lights, or other things that blend in the environment and don't stand out too much, but catch your eye enough to indicate a ledge or something similar. Subtlety is the key.
Or they place useless items next to important locations. Ever wondered why there are so many arterial leaves in ER? They are just there to show you something.
I would argue that they are obnoxious to the point of immersion breaking but that's just me lol.
Who's lighting all these candles that burn forever? How did this random noble get all the way down to the deep root depths holding a random item just to get me to look over somewhere. Idk I'll take some yellow paint.
@@BasicWorldbuilder good lord no. I hate the yellow paint/white tipped edges in games. Its my only big critique of the amazing resi 2 remake. My heart dropped everytime I saw yellow tape. Playing ff7 rebirth demo I didnt even buy the game when it released when I saw all the handholding. To be honest I think elden ring is even a bit too hand holdy for a from game (developer messages on the ground) but alas a lot better than how most companies do things. Personally I wish games did it the way The ps1 tomb raiders did it.
Just wanted to say, Shadow Keep was such a blast to explore despite the fire knights being a huge pain. I walked in there for hours and I was never bored. There's so many secrets. The hidden wall leading to the watering hole with the furnace golems was very exciting. Plus, the massive storehouse and sick bay cleverly adds characterization for Messmer. Probably my favorite level design in all of Elden Ring.
I also thought that hole in Moorth Ruins leading to Bonny Village was fantastic. Finding the cliff that gets you to Cerulean Coast through multiplayer messages was also very memorable, even though it was a little sparse along the way in hindsight.
In a way it reminds me of Firelink shrine the way it branches out to multiple open world areas. It's just so layered and acts as a hub for the back half of the Land of Shadow
where’s the watering hole? u mean the place that leads to unte ruins?
>pitches it as good
>explains how it’s bad
Great stuff
Id rather talk about how it can be better than nod along to someone who just echoes what i already believe. A critique isnt meant to validate me
One of his "large" points on how good the map design is that you can look into the distance and see areas you're going to be in later... Is that not *literally* every open world game ever? And it's not even exclusive to open world games, seeing lost izalith from the tomb of the giants, or seeing the hotel near the beginning of Lies of P are two examples I can think of right off the top of my head. Also, I think From does level design much much better and more cohesively when linear. DS1 is the obvious example (the church connecting back to firelink obviously), but even in LoP, after beating the black rabbit brotherhood and finding out the lift takes you back to the hotel is a very cool moment. You inherently can't have that type of design when everything is connected all the time like in an open world game.
@@Christian-w8qevery other open world game doesn't show upcoming areas like Elden Ring does because they are all severely lacking in the verticality department. Some exceptions that first come to mind are BotW and TotK
Also, with how the world is designed in Shadow of the Erdtree you can't ever see another area and go straight there. The landscape takes you on a massive loop around to the point you get disoriented which makes the arrival even more satisfying
I love the map because I was playing along a friend and we managed to get to the same places but completely backwards, it is amazing.
Really? There are a lot of areas where theres like one specific hidden entrance to get there from
@@shinyrayquaza9 I do a lot of theorycraft with jumps on torrent, so usually I land on high places and cheese some hitboxes, of course the abyssal woods are unreachable unless you do the catacombs, but for the rest pretty much y just jumped a lot
Even if the difficulty and gameplay can be discussed as being flawed, the world design of ER SotE is absolutely and undoubtedly stunning.
What’s the gameplay flaws that people are saying?
@@therealexquisiteexistentia4743 Watch Mug's previous video as it does a good job explaining some of the possible reasons behind the flaws.
@@MrDoomsdayBomb watched it, its mostly delusional souls veteran fragile ego nonsense, elden ring is designed for solo players 1st and formost, and no amount of delusional self gratifying R1 spamming backwards dodging ds3 and bb clowns will change that.
in truth alot of bb and ds3 clown fanboys played ER badly and blamed the games design rather their own boring dull playstyles from the older games, u can mash R1 and dodge in mindless random directions in the older games, not this one though, and that pissed off alot of souls veterans and they tried convincing themselves that the game is made for summons in mind XD
Wow 😂@@flamingmanure
Yup the guy above you is an elden ring femboy@@shutup1037
The way you described how the map obsures the relative elevations of places and how this shapes ones exploration and perception of the world really resonated with me. I think this is one of the most unique, innovative and enjoyable experiences that SotE offers.
It IS, I noticed in the base game how their level design affected some areas of the world more than others, but the dlc got it completely. It’s totally metroidvanian and its style evoking autumn and even Halloween just makes it my favorite open world I’ve ever explored.
One thing I loved is the grab attack that the final boss uses. It basically made me understand that character and his effect on everyone else in a way no hours of lore videos could
Being a huge fan of the older Dark Souls titles the world design of Elden Ring never clicked with me. Shadow of the Erdtree changed things completely for me though. It felt more like DS1 to me since it is really great at using verticality and made exploring way more interesting and fun for me. I agree with you!
Open world game design is easy, you just lay your game objectives on the over world. Making a true interconnected world is much harder.
SOTE is better than the base game for me as well. Even the dungeons are unique and not just a copypaste as 90% of the base game is. I still loved (and love) Elden Ring Vanilla, but SOTE made me love the game as a whole A LOT MORE and it's now in my top 3 ranking of soulsborne games
@@Wilhelm4131 for trashy ubisoft games yes, elden ring base game already wiped the floor with ds1, but u souls veterans arent ready for that conversation yet. there are 2 to 3 ways to access every single open world area, calid, liurnia and lyndell, there 2 to 3 ways to get into every legacy dungeon, and thats not even counting the mirrors, ds1 wishes it was that good lol, its shortcuts are cute and its interconnectivity only made me go "thats pretty cool!" in comparison to elden ring.
brah you go into nokron, a castle jutted into the ceiling of a giant underground open world cave, 50 freakin hours after you saw it XD and u do it through killing radahn then going down a freakin meteor crater, elden ring base game map design objectively destroys ds1, and no amount of delusional souls veteran nostalgia bias will change that fact, counting shadow now, elden rings level design is legit better than all the older games combined.
@@liszt646 really? but alot of the older games main areas feel copy pasted to be honest. especially bb, that entire lazy dull game is basically 40 hours of the same grey gothic shite. copy pasted spires and churches, copy pasted grey corridors and alleys, copy pasted coffins and grave stones etc etc it doesnt end.
overall i think elden ring is laughably above the older games in almost every way possible except maybe music, the rest elden ring destroys them in everything really. gameplay atmosphere builds enemy and boss design etc etc to each their own i guess.
I have found my people. On Reddit i see so many complaints about the map and the world. Its miiiiles better than the base game for me :)
yeah those massive areas with nothing in them where you hold forward on the stick for 30 minutes straight in a purely time wasting exercise are absolute peak, we've come so far since the meticulous world construction of dark souls 1 and the mass gamer audience definitely doesn't have scarlet rot in their brains
30 minutes...
@@GodWarsX Abyssal woods mainly, cause no horse
Seriously though, I still have no idea why open world games are so popular. They mostly consist of big empty fields, they always repeat enemies/bosses/content to fill out the world, and take longer to develop while being less polished than their linear counterparts. The balancing is guaranteed to be worse, as you don't know where the player is or might've been already. Bosses take a huge quality hit because of this, because all the budget was put into the map scale. Making the game more accessible by giving it wide stream appeal also makes the balancing much more difficult (enemies and bosses have *no* idea how to fight multiple opponents, like the mimic tear). I mean, ask nearly any ER fan (including the DLC, or even just the base game) and ask what their favorite part of the map was. 99% of them are going to name one of the linear areas. Ok, great idea. Let's just have a game that's *only* the best, most dense, highest quality level design areas, and *make that the entire game*. Remove all the copy paste content. Remove the barren fields. Remove all the poor balancing issues. Oh look at that, the game is much better, and you've saved both time and budget to start the next game... I think most people that "love" open world games are tricked into enjoying them. I just don't think they realize the game doesn't respect their time, and the content is always stretched thin. People defend ER and TOTK to death, even though it's blatant how much copy paste content there is. I don't even want to know how many erdtree avatars or tree sentinals you fight in ER + DLC.
@@Christian-w8q Oh boy you really shouldn't play dark souls 2, it still has some samey enemies despite no open world
@@shinyrayquaza9 I already have. It's also the worst of the trilogy easily (although still better than most games). DS2 from my knowledge only repeats one boss (smelter demon). The ER DLC repeats multiple bosses, and even bosses from the base game. It's much more blatant in ER.
Miyazaki didn't lie - people just misunderstood what he wanted to say there about the size and scale of the DLC. Surface area is not the same as content density. And the area of Limgrave, for example, is larger than all of DS3. He wanted to express "it's gonna be really big", and many people thought "what? that small?".
Honestly the potentiality of mods is so crazy aswell.
With huge mods like the convergence mod, I'm certain they'll come and fill out area's that seem a little empty like the abyssal woods and the finger ruins.
This dlc experience will only get better with time, just like the base game has.
Those mods always look fun. One day when I have a PC I can try them.
@@myles5276I literally built a PC for that reason. Absolutely 0 complaints. Convergence mod gave me another 500 hours on DS3 and another 250 on ER before the DLC broke it. They’re decently optimized games, you don’t need anything crazy.
Yup, MUCH preferred exploring shadow of the erd tree in comparison to base game elden ring. I still have my issues with the dlc (way too much base game enemy and boss reuse) but LOVED how the world was designed. I discovered how to get down to a very low section of the map by following the edges of a higher area and literally taking out the little blue binoculars and scanning the lower areas only to notice a little cave. I assumed there must be an elevator or something that leads me down to that cave and so explored the area above said cave and low and behold I found my way down there. Loved it.
I wish they could achieve this without me spending six hours staring over the edge of cliffs.
Just go play ds3
wondering how you get somewhere is 80% of the fun for me!
God I felt this. I like to get a little lost here and there, I like having to use my head a bit to figure out the path forward. But when enemies are ganking me left and right before I can even process or figure out where I am, and the path to the spot I’m trying to figure out how to get to is actually on the other side of the map, through a grotto, behind an illusory wall and up a hidden, locked spirit spring, I start losing interest in the destination.
I loved how open the base game’s world was, you could easily make it almost anywhere that you could see in the distance, relatively quickly on Torrent. It felt like the world was designed with our Spectral Steed in mind, whereas the DLC almost feels like it has “anti-Torrent architecture.” Lots of canyons that are just wide enough that you can’t make the jump, very high cliff-sides, etc… I like tighter map design but not when it actively discourages/ignores the use of probably the most commonly utilized tool in the game. If there were more spirit springs, rocks to jump across, bridges, etc. I would like the map a lot more.
The environmental art for the DLC alone makes Elden Ring Game of the Decade.
Ooooh. Excited for when the retrospective drops Mugthief 😀
World design FOR SURE! I loved it! It was like Dark Souls but bigger... problem... *there's nothing here... here... here...* I'm at abyssal woods right now, and it feels like your cousin tried to make his house into a horror house.
The map design has some serious appeal. But it would have landed much stronger if it was in a whole new game. Elden ring's base game just did not leave much room for new loot to exist and lacking this motives and new spells/weapons to find in similar abundance to the base game was a huge detriment to enjoying the map.
This dlc should give fromsoft a lot to graze on but it's gonna be years before we see another game come out where we can see what's changed and refined.
I have to disagree. Not knowing everything a game has is my preference. Each time more underground appeared in the base game I was delighted. In the dlc it felt more like a check list with a lot of running around to find the way to what I already knew about. Preferences will differ and a blend of both would be best.
I’m on job and I still haven’t watched the video but you’re right!
It's much better than the vanilla ER map, but the overworld areas are still mostly too big, which results in the player needing to do a grid-by-grid sweep across the open areas like they're mowing the lawn, combing the lands to make sure nothing has been missed. Especially when easily missable things might be little barely visible caves tucked in the corner somewhere that lead to an entire series of new areas and content.
If the overworld areas were scaled down to the size of, oh say, crucifixion woods in DaS3 but still had the same number of connections and same amount of content, I think that'd be perfect. I still think DaS1's map is peak design.
Great video. The world felt like they applied DS1's level design to the open world. It was a massive step up from the base game in my opinion. However I disagreed with pretty much everything in your other video about rewards/encounters etc. I thought the bosses were varied, satisfying, and appropriately tuned. The only issue with the DLC imo is that it's tedious or requires a guide to figure out which fragments you may have missed by the time you're at the end game. This has been partially improved by the recent patch which frontloads the scaling, but could be totally remedied if they just added a few more potguys so there were more fragments than you needed to max out, especially in late game areas.
tbh elden ring base game already wiped the floor with ds1 level design, but souls veterans arent ready for that conversation yet. there are 2 to 3 ways to access every single open world area, calid, liurnia and lyndell, there 2 to 3 ways to get into every legacy dungeon, and thats not even counting the mirrors, ds1 wishes it was that good lol, its shortcuts are cute and its interconnectivity only made me go "thats pretty cool!" in comparison to elden ring.
brah you go into nokron, a castle jutted into the ceiling of a giant underground open world cave, 50 freakin hours after you saw it XD and u do it through killing radahn then going down a freakin meteor crater, elden ring base game map design objectively destroys ds1, and no amount of delusional souls veteran nostalgia bias will change that fact, counting shadow now, elden rings level design is legit better than all the older games combined.
I was waiting for someone to talk about it. The base game itself was so dense and there was so much hidden stuff. The DLC just blew my mind as to what can be hidden, although lore wise I do have a few things which I don't like. But the world is a gem!
Amazing video!!
what is the second Metroidvania you shown just after Blasphemous please ?
The Last Faith. It's Bloodborne but 2D, it's just okay.
@@Mugthief thank you so much, i really enjoyed your video
shadow keep alone is one of the most impressive things from software has done, period
If Dark Souls is From's version of Ico, then Shadow of the Erd Tree is their version of Shadow of the Colossus.
Anyone knows what's the game shown after the 5 minute mark? It looks cool asf.
I think its called “the last faith”
Bloodborne metroidvania
FINALLY someone that uses Godfreys Crown in combination with the Banished Knight Armor (not altered!). 10/10 fashion dear sir
Excellent content bro. Thank you
Abyssal woods is not good tho tbh. I feel like there were quite a few areas that felt pretty barren in the dlc
I liked the Abyssal Woods atmosphere, and the Winter Lanterns, but they could have done more with it. I wanted it to be scarier, enemy wise, the rats didn’t do it for me. And Midra’s Manse was too short also.
Yea dude, cool area, but almost no reason to look around down there which sucks. It's mostly just for show, and that's kinda lame
@@enol1466 area is supposed to be a maze with midra’s manse being the reward. On subsequent playthroughs you’ll know the way. That’s what they were going for
@@Stanzbey69don’t change the fact it’s still ass
The fact that rats are your main enemy should tell you how exciting that area is
I tried to get into Dark Souls, both 1 and 3, but the setting and lore just didn't do it for me like Bloodborne, Elden Ring and Sekiro. Playing Shadow of the Erdtree made me feel like I got to experience that classic level design of Dark Souls. The Shadowrealm feels like one giant dungeon layered with smaller dungeons which all flow in and out of one another. The only area in the base game that had equivalent interactive verticality for me was the Leyndell to Subterranean to Deeproot Depths path, which blew my mind, especially when you use the waygate that brings you right back to the top, like an endless loop.
Shadow Keep especially is such an achievement that links so many areas together and combines the best parts of Haligtree, Stormveil and Farum. For anyone who wants a nice resting point for their Tarnished, there's a cliffside south of the Church of Crusade, in between Castle Ensis and the Shadow Keep that has by far the best view of the whole map. Panning left to right you can see Jagged Peak, Castle Ensis, Supressing Pillar, Gravesight Plain, Belurat/Enir-Ilim, Ruins of Rauh, the Scadutree & Shadow Keep, the Moon and then the Cathedral of Manus Metyr. I put my Tarnished to sleep there instead of closing the game sometimes.
I was hyped for this DLC and I thought it couldn't exceed my expectations, but it really has and just makes me appreciate Elden Ring and FromSoftware even more. I still have a special fondness for Bloodborne but Elden Ring and SOTE is their grand masterpiece. I just hope they keep pushing into alternatives like Sekiro and try new versions of these core concepts.
@@geordiejones5618 It's a pity, I hope the myutvkom opinion as you FS will not notice because dls is complete garbage, except for a beautiful wrapper in it there is nothing
I really want to finally get the expansion and give it a go but I am a bit hesitant. I play ton of RPGs but my experience with soulslike RPGs is kinda limited.I finished the base game with a tanky character though I explored every inch of the map and had to summon other players for specific bosses in order to make it. Do you think I should give it a try or will I find it too hard ? Thanks !
The patches have made it easier, and tanky characters are probably the best build for the DLC. Just explore, and if you liked the base game you’ll probably like this the same or more.
@@Mugthief Thanks a lot for the response, I will make sure to check it out as soon as possible. I absolutely loved the base game to be honest i consider it one of the greatest games if not the best game of the last 10 years. I won't lie though I just always struggle a lot when it comes to fromsoftware games 🫠
I can't wait to actually watch this video after eventually getting the dlc and completing it 100%
Do u use any reshade or something ? Colors look amazing in that videos mine are not that good in my game :(
Change your brightness
@@kolkol199 Brightness has nothing to do with colors
@@WakeUpB2P try it.
@@WakeUpB2P when you change the brightness ur actually changing the contrast
@@kolkol199Ok well ill give it a try
What's with the curtains in the sky
Lol I just watched a video claiming that this is the worst fromsoft DLC. Wild.
It isn't the best. Old Hunters is. But it does have the best world design, can't wait to see the people that love Dark Souls to death argue that "actually, SOTE has a terrible map".
@@Mugthief I would agree there, but bloodborne is my favorite fromsoft game, so pretty bias there myself. Hopefully someday we get a pc port. However I don't think shadow of the erdtree is the best either but the worst is a huge stretch. It had some issues for me, like I wasn't a fan of the secondary progression system but besides that super solid dlc.
@@aersla1731 It’s very flawed. I’d argue the only place it shines without any excuses is the way the map is laid out and explored is truly great, but even there you could complain there’s empty space, reused encounters and boring stretches without rewards. I just choose to not consider it, because this exact map but filled out better would make it a 10/10, and the lines between world/level design and encounter design start to get mixed. But please, Bloodborne port when.
@@Mugthief The fact is open world is a huge draw for casuals like me
and Skyrim fans.
@@Mugthiefehh I love BB but can't agree
After exploring this 40$ dlc I look back at tears of the kingdom, a full price game a bit differently
just call me rapid ;) glad to be here! Less glad that I now feel obliged to play this game sometime soon. pfff
If you have played (maybe even platinumed) various open world action RPG, eg The Witcher 3, Skyrim, Dragon Age, etc Elden Ring is just as excellent but with its unique ambience (history/past-orientation, gloomy dark, grand art nouveau and art deco designs etc). But if your only reference is the past Souls series, well....
In which way elden ring is excellent except for design? Empty open world in a game where you cant do anything except fighting, (you cant even talk with npc, taking quest and etc) is bad
@@Apophes ER is a game of history/lore (past). It's like Archeology, you dig things to find something interesting. If digging and thinking and exploring is not your thing, this game is not for you. As simple as that. You don't like it I don't blame you, let me immerse in my own game.
Skyrim has the same issue shadow of the erdtree has, huge areas with nothing in them
@@thepainphantom That was the dumbest answer I've ever heard. Excuse me, but we don't argue about tastes, we drink a fact. Empty world, scattered loot like noone cared, garbage boss design for a game that is 1 to 1 ds3. If you likes this then its your taste, that all, But the facts about this will not disappear
@@Apophes Scarce, yeah, debatable. Empty, no. Your opinion and my opinion are not fact. The only dumb is your limited logic and narrow perspective.
I love how the map is structured.... but it's so empty, they could of easily made everything more linear. Apart from that and the 2/all bosses being actual good bosses (Midra and Relanna) than yeah £30 well spent, all the weapons, armour, art design is great. My favourite area in this dlc, is probably the Abyssal Woods, it's big, spooky, and they mechanic where you can't use Torrent is really neat. Oh and those aged untouchables, are a really bloodborne esk enemy design, the boss of the area Midra, has such a great flow to it, and his boss theme is so eerie and bloodborne esk.
"They could have easily made everything more linear" Yes they could but to what end? Streamlining? Exploration has been my favourite part of souls games from DS1 onwards
@@piotr78 well, ds1 is linear, but has a sense of openness, and that's why ds1 is my favourite souls. But then ds3 had a great sense of progression. I just with this dlc wasn't so open and empty, base game isn't as empty as the dlc, there are literally areas in the dlc that are big but lead to dead ends, or have nothing in them.
"bloodborne esk" haha
@@GodWarsX Silly hooman 🦊
you didn't enjoy Messmer or Bayle?
HEY FROMSOFT......thank you
Yes, I believe the abyss with 500 madness rats and goats sprinkled around and finger ruins with literally nothing in them is the PEAK! (The peak but I slipped and fell off the cliff)
I think ppl 4get thst this is a Expansion to the actual game, & not the game itself... its end game optional content
Needed this after that pathetic excuse for a ‘critique’ from feeble king
That was a correct critique but I'd say Synthetic mans is better. From gave away their game philosophy to casuals and meta gamers in a popular open world.
@@Wilhelm4131 you’ve given away just how much of a lowlife you are with this comment. Synthetic man? Seriously? What a joke
@Wilhelm4131 both of those critiques were dogshit ngl, ratatoskr and mortismal gaming had better negative critiques of the dlc but they were well supported and made sense. Synthetic man and Feeble king's points literally made no sense, they are simply just ragebait channels.
Feeble King is a contrarian view farmer, mans whole channel is looking at the general opinion of the week on something and then making a video saying his opinion is the opposite and flip-floping as needed. His videos could be good but he'd rather bait for views. I respect the mindset and playing the youtube game but it feels like wasted potential.
Planet Zeebs
Dude, FromSoft doesn’t make Souls-likes. FromSoft makes “Souls games.” All other Devs from the genre make “souls-likes.”
Should be rather self-evident, don’t you think?
This is a pet-peeve of mine also
Amazing video and self reflection on the game. I rushed it and didn’t take the time to appreciate a lot of these amazing things’!
I have to be real though this fully wasnt something i figured out on my own, the og game used exploration incredibly well especially when it comes to getting stronger, but in dhadow of the erdtree their is a linear progression of character strength, trying to imitate the nonlinear gaining of power that was the focal point in the og game, thts where it fails not miserably, but a failure nonetheless.
i love how the map is structured and how diffferent the areas look. what i hate is once you get there you realize how empty they are. this dlc smells unfinished. like for example in the trailer you could see the player riding torrent in the abyssal woods. so what happened? i presume they coudlnt finish what they had in mind there, scrapped it and made it a stealth section. cerulean coast too is gorgeous but theres nothing to do there besides the fissure. jagged peak has amazing buildup towards bayle but the area itself is just reused enemies. rauh looks gorgeous but besides some enemies inside the ruins, the map itslef is also empty with nothing to do. the only ones that got love were gravesite and scadu altus.
Dark Souls had this amazing interonnected world but still has every area being unqiue with unique content, unique enemies, bosses and loot.
What im trying to say is that yes you can see the areas before hand like in ds1, yes you are excited on how to get there, yes you get surprised how you got there, but whats missing is the area itslef being good. they had 2 years. dark souls was developed in around 2 years. this is dissapointing
This dlc itself is thrice as big as dark souls. Your point is invalid. You can use torrent for certain sections of abyssal woods. He only goes into hiding when those winter lanterns are near. Saying there's " nothing to do there besides the fissure" makes no sense given the fissure is like the main attraction and part of that area. Ds1s second half is absolutely abysmal. The dlc itself has more enemy types than the entirety of ds1. Shadow keep is quite literally on par with leyndell as the best area they've ever made. So much content and so much to explore and yet you're still complaining
@@Oknahidwin it could be bigger than dark souls idk but undeniably dark souls has better content and the world os vastly more dense and superior. and i dont know if its bigger than dark souls. i doubt it. they should be around the same length/ size
@@Oknahidwin as for enemies you could be right for the main game + dlc but like 40% of the dlc enemy types are reuses from the main game so nope invalid argument
@@Oknahidwin "the fissure is the main attraction". for an entire fuckimg region? really? at least jagged peak is small.
as for the second half of dark souls, yes lost izalith is terrible but dukes archives and new londo are amomg their best best level. sounds to me like yoyu are reciting youtuber thoughts. tomb is bad not horrible
@@Oknahidwin and just to count. undead burg, undead parish, valley of drakes, blight town, demon ruins, sens fortress, anor londo, darkroot basin and the forest, dukes archives and the crystal cave, catacombs and tomb , lost izalith, new londo, great hollow and ash lake, the kiln. thats an insane amount of content thats all varied for a 2 year dev time
The entire dlc, while stunning visually, feels very uninspired mechancially and disconnected from the base game. Nothing you do interacts with or has any impact on the world you return to. There are no different endings or dialogues about your actions. Rellana derserved more, we only find out how prominent of a character she is, literally Renalla's sister, after her defeat. And it would have been so cool if characters like Melina could comment on Messmer and Miquella if she was still with your tarnished. It also feels like some of the bosses are just there as shameless homages like Romina, with no real reason to be there other than 'oh the players are gonna love this reference.'
The story was not as handholdy as people think.
Keep comparing Eldin Ring and ToTk! I do it all the time and get sideways looks! They are very different but oh so the same in the ways that count. I “feel” the same when I’m playing them. I’m immersed, I’m curious, I’m interested, I’m challenged. Zelda may spoon feed the lore and narrative a little more but the open world is largely hands off. The only thing both games are missing are the amazing random encounters that Rockstar has gotten so good at. I feel like Eldin Ring, ToTK, and GTA 5 are the best open world games of the last 10ish years with honorable mentions to RDR2 and BotW.
Elden ring imo is peak. There’ll still be amazing souls games to come but imo it’s gonna be hard to top and that’s fine to me
Idk if its just me either but i felt compared to the main game most of the legacy dungeons were kinda small an lame (excluding shadowkeep which could be there best yet) really not a dlc hater, loved every secont of it. But it wasn't perfect an can be impoved upon in the future
cant wait for the fromsoft retrospective ! great vids! subd👍
Can't wait to edit down 600 hours of footage, but I promise it'll be worth it!
The Abyssal Woods actually follows many of the rules of horror games. It takes away your power. You can’t use your power and your ability to fight something is stripped away from you. Sure, the community has found a way to fight the Winter Lantern things since launch, but still. That first run through in that zone was intense. It’s so good.
its literally the most basic stealth can get in a game what are you talking about?
@@petercottantail7850 talkin bout how I enjoyed it? You can’t read?
Anybody ever tell you that you're voice is lovely? Also you remind me a ton of Noah Caldwell Gervais and that guy is also fucking rad so keep up the good work fam. #galaxybraintakegang
I don't deserve to be compared to Noah, but I thank you kindly for doing so. Man is an OG of RUclips essays and still puts out some of the highest quality stuff on the platform. Very happy you liked the vid, and very happy to see overlap with Noah fans!
They knocked it out of the park imo. Level design is amazing. My favorite part of the dlc is the overall darker more ominous vibes i get from the dlc. 💚
My biggest complaint regarding optional content in Elden Ring in particular is that the game is huge, and just getting to the DLC can take 30+ hours of gameplay... and then if you want to get there again in ng+ it can take much more, so having missable content becomes much more anxiety inducing, and might push you to go see a guide. I think missable content works best on games that are more short and linear, like the souls games. Elden Ring is way too big for this approach in my opinion. In fact, I think the open world formula really doesn't suit FromSoft style, linear games is what allows them to express all of their potential at best in my opinion. I loved Elden Ring but I firmly believe it could've been even better had it been pseudo linear like Dark Souls, Sekiro or Bloodborne.
You can get to the DLC on a new game+ run in under 2 hours. I was suprised after finishing the DLC how quickly I was able to get back to it.
You can back in a flash in ng+
the world design is what I would imagine the world design of Dark Souls 1 when "blown up" to an open world would be like - the base game was close, but SOTE nailed it
The layered map is very difficult for me to navigate. I spent hours trying to find the North most map piece. More than once I got frustrated, and just looked up on RUclips how to get to areas. A little annoying.
Also I didn't realize the NPCs guide you 😅 I didn't read their notes. I play for the combat mechanics so I didn't even know Leda and her gang had "quests".
Both points sound like personal problems you can overcome.
Legacy Dungeons are peak, the rest of the open world is just too big. I really love open worlds but I prefer the design of DS1 or Bloodborne.
The world and visuals are very pretty but the content is very sparse and repetitive. A lot of areas are large and beautiful but once you get past all the decorations they are just filler with a few rewards and recycled enemies and bosses from the base game. The size of a game isn't worth it's lack of content.
I agree with this but I think it's more complex and would require detailed breakdown to explain. It's not all bad, it has merit. The world is fun but there's so much that is just filler. I think some empty space is fine but a lot of the map is not worth your time.
Oh and it's definitely the best looking world I've ever seen. I'll get to a peak and see a dozen places i've explored over the last ten hours. Miles of things that look awesome and are easily recognizable, but then I remember through most of that I was riding past wolves and stuff not worth fighting and I remember it's not actually a giant dark souls.
I suppose you could call it sparse but it seems like it was entirely intentional in certain areas like finger ruins, shaman village or abyssal woods, to either show something major has happened, to illicite emotion or to build tension. Theres MORE than enough content, and all the dungeons are so great compared to the base game - do you want complex, interesting but fewer locations or worlds filled to the brim with repetitive content?
@@dagrela I would actually prefer Fromsoftware to make smaller games of a size they can manage. A lot of the problems in the DLC and main game, like enemy and boss recycling and lack of meaningful rewards, stem from the size being too big for Fromsoftware to develop properly. I honestly feel ER and SotE would be much better if they were smaller, dense, branching areas with Legacy dungeons and some minor dungeons.
ER and SotE aren't that big compared to other open world titles, but if Fromsoftware struggle to properly develop and flesh out games of this size then they should stick to making their games a bit smaller. I don't feel the grand size and scale of the game is worth the lack of polish and sacrifice in content. If you only have so much water you can either make an ocean that's as deep as a puddle, or you can make a lake that's smaller but deep enough for people to swim in.
They just bit off more than they could chew in terms of the games size and what they were capable of developing. It's not that they're bad developers, they were just a bit over ambitious with the size of ER and SotE and they really didn't have to be imo. Rather a lake deep enough to swim in than an ocean you can only stand in.
This is actually how I felt towards botw and totk lol
All the people whining that it's too difficult and obtuse to get to all the new areas in the dlc since they can't easily find the route there like a baby, I have this to say:
SKILL ISSUE LMAO
Dude, your microphone is far too sensitive. My head vibrates when I listen to this with earbuds in.
Nope.
I really liked this dlc for one special reason. I don't needed Google to find stuff. I also don't needed any build guide for ne it was evident that I need resistance to beat the dlc.
This world design falls apart on repeat playthroughs when the game becomes horse riding simulator, and that still is a large part of the experience on the first playthrough. Endless hours of combing the map on horse and finding little to nothing in large swaths of the world. SOTE is even more guilty of it than in the base game in some areas. All of that is in sacrifice to the sense of scale and awe you get on your very first playthrough, but is it worth it?
Don't get me wrong it's great for what it is but I think Dark Souls still did it better.
To me the open world was the weakest part of the dlc. I arrived in the dlc at night so the only thing I could clearly see in the distance was the shadow tree. Unlike the base game I got no urge to explore after having entered, I could only see a few feet ahead of me.
Then we come to the lack of interesting rewards. It felt way too unrewarding to explore. I got up to 12 scadublessings and then killed the last boss and had no desire to explore further.
The dungeons were great though!
I will say the map design itself is great. But the fact that I’m not nudged to explore it makes it weak.
"get gud" comments are coming
hate those guys @@saria8340
Its good. But far from Peak. Items you collect kinda lack.
Many big spaces that are empty or look unfinished.
Boss design cool, but sometimes it seems like we need it 1 more button to press.
2many cookbooks and stones. We alrdy have all. The stones.
Beside the dificulty of boss design, i”d vote 8/10.
Base game 9.5/10
Blooeborne dlc was peak
Agreed
Bro yall just dont like open world games...yall old from fa really just need to go play the old soul games
I agree with this take. This is the most consistantly high quality level/world design that From has ever hit, with its only competition being Bloodborne. First half of DS1 was a little better I think but the second half invalidates it entirely lol.
Something I don't think is talked about enough is how less frequent graces are (especially in the open world sections) and how that really helped with design.
With the brutally hard normal enemies it feels like much more like a test of endurance then the base game did. I cant think of a time in the base game where I was out of flasks and worried about when the next grace would be, where as it happened tons of time in the DLC. The graces that they did have were better placed too, having a bonfire in front of every boss is really something they should have been doing since DS2.
I agree with almost all of your points, world of shadow is great but I did not feel rewarded when I finally found my way into Shaman Village and Frenzy canyon. It felt like a random discovery when desperately clawing at the walls for tiniest of clues.
And when that view or the new area is taunting you with that one undiscovered bit of map or a view of new area.
Playing this DLC blind was great aside from these two throns in my side.
I think the only thing that holds the world and level design back is fast travel and too many graces. Which removes that feeling you got in Souls where you FINALLY finds a shortcut back to the bonfire or to a previous area (or more specifically Fire Link Shrine). Also the map kinda removes some mystery as well because you can see where you are and where you're headed too, but I also understand why it's needed.
I have multiple issues with the dlc that makes it a little worse than the base game for me
1/The first being recycled enemies and bosses especially in cerulean coast that area feels empty simply because there's nothing new all recycled enemies,
2/Finger ruins are just a waste of space and time and they only serve as a part of quest for a boss which is basically tedious
3/Jagged peak is just spectacle with nothing else in it that's half of the map being a useless space that only exist for a rememberance boss
4/ issue I have is the
Exploration legacy dungeons, aside from shadow keep all legacy are just small linear path with barely any branching path or interconnectivity which is a huge step down from the base game
5/ lastly is exploration doesn't feel nearly as rewarding as the base game which is to be expected given its endgame content but I thought fromsoftware can pull off something interesting for it
The dlc still great for me but it's an 8.5/10 to me which lower than the base game and other souls titles it's definitely not like the other dlcs that improve on the base game
Totally agree. They missed the mark with this DLC. Im at radhan. After i beat him, finishing shadow keep and im
Done with ER.
It was a wonderfull journey, but i miss a classic rpg exp
@@andreichetan4694 I have replayed 3 times so far but every time it's gets more difficult to get through the slog of farming scadu fragments and empty areas, I don't think I can replay it more than 5 times max , the base game I replayed over 15 times so far because it was far more addictive, I don't think I can do the same for the dlc without mods
@@lordofcinder8884totally agree. I did 70 attempts to win vs Consort at 15 scadutree. I just couldnt farm and search to make lev 20. It becames a slug after 14-15.
I also feel base game was more
Impactfull
@@andreichetan4694 there should have been a lot more scadu fragments found in caves and minor dungeons , field bosses, main bosses, they could have made it similar to smithing stones with different tiers to avoid overleveling
@@lordofcinder8884 true. Im
Glad im
Done tough. Going to Bayle in weekend. Returning to base game to nuke Rhadagon one last time and my ER mission is done forever😊
Take care man!
An open world that requires attention to navigate is exactly the kind of open world I want
I'll be honest, I've never been a big fan of overly vertical, and imo, needlessly complicated maps, like the DLC map. With that said, the way it connects, and the design in general, is genius. I'm not taking that away from it, it's just not my favorite type of map design. I much prefer a map like the OG Dark Souls.
Game of the year… easily.
(If for no other reason to broadcast to developers that gamers would like more of these elements)
“A puzzle like map” is really my favorite part of the game
The world is beautiful, and the verticality looks impressive. Navigating it is another matter, it's empty compared to the base game, lots of riding around finding nothing, trying to figure out how to get up or down. More like the snow areas of the base game
A complete miss in my book.
Bosses are great. New weopens cool but it was a struggle to want to continue exploring. Just wasn't worth it more often than not which is rhe opposite of the bad game.
Dlc is still great and From a step ahead of everyone else but I don't get the choices here. Make the open world harder to navigate AND more empty
I, too, love crossing great heaps of barren land with no purpose or anything to find. The PEAK of game design!!!!
no don't worry there's a cookbook with a single item you won't use :D
Let him cook
That would be real funny if the video was not about the rewards in those areas, but the areas themselves, wouldn't it
i cant deny the world of The land of shadows is beautiful, but how you get to some of these places is down right dumb.
now i havent explored the whole map yet but going to the unte ruin is so dumb, why would you have a ladder hidden and surrounded by multple enemies that poison you, located by a huge bridge with no heads up what so ever.
i assumed youd need to go to a cave like the town tower ruin but going through a castle for a hidden ladder is stupendous even lore wise.
It's meant to be secret.
@@evilfungas it's meant to be explored why would they make it a secret.
every other place has a basis to start looking but this one
@@yuriusutr7284 because it’s satisfying to discover for yourself. Fromsoft games have always been willing to allow players to miss things, because discovery is only meaningful if it’s possible to miss things. You aren’t discovering anything if you can’t miss it.
@@evilfungas I think this is more of a individual difference because when i find things satisfying when exploring, I like puzzles or things I can put togethers. I like looking for pieces then solving it, the only piece here was that it was near the shaded castle and i guess the cave entrance from the town tower ruins but that was a red herring.
For example I really enjoyed the sages cave because you can usually tell which walls were suspicious and there many rewards to be found after breaking the fake wall.
Shadow of the Erdtree is the pinnacle of Open World level design. What they achieved in the first Dark Souls game (which is the best level design of all time), they kinda did it in an open world setting. It is amazing also how they even blurred the lines between Dungeon and Open World (especially in the Rauh Ruins). And since you mentioned Ash Lake, you reminded me back in 2012 that i was playing DS blind (there was not much to guide you anyway), i accidentally found the great hollow, became cursed, had no purging stone and was not a good player enough to survive with half health, so was completely stack at Blightown. Good times....
Now Miyazaki said 2 things: 1) That the DLC is about the size of Limgrave. 2) It is as hard as the late game areas. People said both were lies, while both are actually true.
About the size, it is how you view the areas. For me me there are 4 distinct open world areas in the base game, defined by similar colour palette, similar vegetation, similar enemies and similar Atmosphere. These are:
1) Limgrave/Weeping Peninsula/Liurnia (yes all three)
2)Caelid/Dragon Baroow
3)Altus Plateau/Mount Gelmir
4) Mountaintops of the Giants/Snowfields
If you view it like that the DLC is actually the size of the extended Limgrave and probably even smaller.
As for the difficulty, when you find enough Scadutree Fragments, i would argue (with the exception of a few bosses), that it is probably easier than, say, Haligtree, for the most part.
Now as AMAZING the world design is, as GREAT the new items are etc... the bosses are not fun WITH THE BASIC SOULS FORMULA. They are manageable, but NOT FUN. Their moveset is so frantic and extended that it needs a combat system closer to Sekiro to feel FUN.
I disagree. If everyone is special, then no one is. The same goes for if every area is a convoluted and unnecessary hard to find and get to it becomes annoying. Couple that with the lazy open world bosses and reskinned mobs makes the DLC open world is an L in my opinion. I mean you go through the hassle of getting a gesture to unlock an area and you get 2 items and fight two tree sentinels in an area the size of stormveil castle? If that is peak Fromsoft I guess I can feel confident skipping their next title.
sounds like this flavor of RPG just isn't for you. there's a reason this game is selling like crazy. it's just better
@@IAm.Messmer.Brother.Of.Malenia Frombots gonna frombot I guess.
@@evilmac9623 Thats all they do, they really are a cult
Haven't seen the video yet but I hard disagree with the title. I think that so far, Elden Ring and SOTE has one of the worst world design in any Soulsborne and the concept of the open world hurts the game rather than enhancing the experience.
Peak design lol maybe to satiate the fan base...their open world is atrocious boring and uninspiring...super pretty but the open world lacks what other rpgs do better
even though there is alot of critisms its still the best open world game ever.
Bro, Shadow of the Erdtree was the most empty and boring of all the souls maps. For me all that it had was the beautiful art style.
Bro has the exact opposite opinion of me, but I'm not a gatekeeping loser so I'll respect it 😂 defending stuff like abyssal woods is pretty insane though. My attitude towards open world exploration in the dlc was "these huge areas have literally nothing in them but a cook book, some runes, and maybe a spirit upgrade. I need to ride my horse through it to get to an actually fun part of the game" then when I got to the dungeons they were mostly underwhelming other than shadow keep. It's like they spent most the budget on shadow keep and said "okay, copy paste these 4 enemy types everywhere, make a regular soldier a spooky shadow soldier, job's done"
Yeah bunch of empty areas full of a couple smithing stones... Amzing 10/10
Shame its so empty and boring
This game was so empty unlike the main game. Idk it's kind of mid if you ask me. The difficulty isn't the issue there just wasn't much worth exploring for. It was fine. I also just came from playing lies of p, from software better get it together or a new dev might out do them at their own game. So yea shadow of the red tree was aight. Had to force myself to finish it where as the main game I had to force myself to stop playing it to do life shit.
It's really not tho 😂
No the hell it's not, this is such a rushjob. Worst thing fromsoft has ever put out. Super dissapointing.
I went down river, and after that the way the it connected and split completely baffled me. Every turn i would discover something and say out loud "love this game". find a "backdoor" "love this game", find crazy weird DARK 😂 frigging dark place pure environmental story telling "THIS GAME IS GOAT". Im not even half way 😂 and already my husband is tired of me saying I love the game over and over
Are you realy play the same shit as i the worst thing in dlc is the open world
This title is BS lol This is barely a From game from where they use to be
it absolutely isn't lmao
Others explore and complain about the game not having enough items, I explore so I can go and fight the new bosses.
We are not the same
Really? I think it sucks to be honest
Why?
@@66something_77 It’s really big but there’s like, nothing in it. And the upgrades for your character (scadutree) are just in random places. It’s cool to know if I go to a church I could find some. But many are just like, in random places? Or even corpses. It’s just a lot of empty space. And then they reuse tree sentinel and fallingstar beast in the ruins.
Cool. Soooo, why did you waste your time clicking on this video? You would be so much happier if you sought out things you enjoyed rather than things that irritate you.
@@Idontevenknowman779 i don't disagree with this,but still the interconnectivity is really cool
@@Idontevenknowman779what a low iq reason