The icon veneration was my biggest obstacle when I was converting to Orthodoxy (and still somewhat is). However since we do not make sacrifices to icons, in fact even when we pray it is not directed to the icons themselves - from my view this is far from idolatry. (I still do feel little weird about the kissing part though, any advice ?)
Not advice per se, but something to think about. Have you ever kissed a picture of a deceased loved one? Likewise, have you also ever kissed your Bible? If so, then when you kiss the picture of a deceased loved one are you honoring the picture, or the loved one? And if you have ever kissed your Bible, is it the paper and ink which you are honoring or the meaning of the words there in?
Read the Saints on the matter, like St. John Damascus. Iconography is directly a product of correct Christology, and was the universal practice prior to the muslims. We have archaeology likewise that supports Iconography to the earliest times, even in O.T sites, ofcourse famously the Dura Europas Synagogue is a great example. Kissing is a form of respect, it's just an action to show honour and veneration.
Kissing in America has a different cultural connotation than in orthodox countries. To a Greek or a syrian, you would kiss as a greeting for a friend or family member. Remember this context when venerating an icon, it's a very old and traditional greeting and show of respect to a holy image or relic. It just isn't done in the west anymore
Pozdrav imenjače, znam da je glupo što pitam, da li možeš da staviš srpski titl nekako u video, jer te pratim, imaš prezanimljive videe ali ne znam toliko engleski da bih sve razumeo, hvala ti na tvom radu❤
1:56 The veneration of a diety through the medium of stone metal or wood is literally a form of idol worship 2nd Commandment “THOU SHALL NOT TAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE”
I never saw a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian who fed their icons with horse meat to trap Saint therein. Pretending as if icon veneration has something to do with idolatry, when you have expert's research at your finger tips, is beyond me. I think it mostly just makes people uncomfortable and then they search for a reason to justify the emotion.
It was always interesting to me hearing the challenge of Icon Veneration for converts, as growing up as a Catholic kid there were sometimes prayer corners, or pictures of saints or the Blessed Mother, and i remember naturally focusing on them sometimes when on my knees and praying.. so it is more of a gradual shift maybe and easier to understand the difference between veneration and worship
I'm a traditional Anglican in the UK, I think the arguments against incense, icons and relics are frankly ridiculous. Most of the things accused of being pagan by low church protestants and atheists are actually of medieval Christian origin and there is next to no evidence of any link between them and paganism. In fact, there's more evidence that they are actually Christian and deeply so. God bless and have a wonderful Christmas when it comes for you
Jesus and Peter didn't use incense in the supper described in John. None of them used icons or crosses, either. It was about the Jewish Messiah. Orthodoxy realized the church Jesus set up was destroyed after He and His apostles were assassinated, so they attempted to (just like the Pharisee and Sadducee) create practices that they felt were Biblical, but weren't.
Similar argument is made by followers of Hinduism. Sorry, I can no accept this. [Deuteronomy 4:16] 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, [Leviticus 26:1] 26 “You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God.
That's about worship, to say worship must be done to God alone. Biblical imagery/objects aren't wrong in themselves, it's a sin only when we make them into an idol. And no Christian does that. Veneration ≠ adoration
The key key difference is the concept of _idol_ - where the object itself is the object of worship. We love others, as is natural, even commanded We love them as images, icons made in the image of God as a foretaste or prefigurement of God's love for us. We don't worship them.
iconoclasm reject the incarnation, this is why is comes from Islam. If you call Jesus an idol, it's rather clear you're not Christian. All iconoclasm rejects the incarnation.
The icon veneration was my biggest obstacle when I was converting to Orthodoxy (and still somewhat is). However since we do not make sacrifices to icons, in fact even when we pray it is not directed to the icons themselves - from my view this is far from idolatry. (I still do feel little weird about the kissing part though, any advice ?)
Not advice per se, but something to think about. Have you ever kissed a picture of a deceased loved one? Likewise, have you also ever kissed your Bible? If so, then when you kiss the picture of a deceased loved one are you honoring the picture, or the loved one? And if you have ever kissed your Bible, is it the paper and ink which you are honoring or the meaning of the words there in?
P.S. this was hard for me too at first especially since I almost became iconoclastic due to Muslim influence
@@matthewtipton7387 Thank you, this is exactly what I needed to hear.
Read the Saints on the matter, like St. John Damascus. Iconography is directly a product of correct Christology, and was the universal practice prior to the muslims. We have archaeology likewise that supports Iconography to the earliest times, even in O.T sites, ofcourse famously the Dura Europas Synagogue is a great example.
Kissing is a form of respect, it's just an action to show honour and veneration.
Kissing in America has a different cultural connotation than in orthodox countries. To a Greek or a syrian, you would kiss as a greeting for a friend or family member. Remember this context when venerating an icon, it's a very old and traditional greeting and show of respect to a holy image or relic. It just isn't done in the west anymore
Pozdrav imenjače, znam da je glupo što pitam, da li možeš da staviš srpski titl nekako u video, jer te pratim, imaš prezanimljive videe ali ne znam toliko engleski da bih sve razumeo, hvala ti na tvom radu❤
Ili ceo video na srpskom samo, ne znam zasto al zbog nekog razloga me mnogo zanima kako zvuci na srpskom lmao
@Govnar658Znam, ali ovo je pre svega kaanl koji je namenjen vernicima i ljudima engleskog govornog područija, misionarski kanal, ali mi je zanimljiv.
1:56 The veneration of a diety through the medium of stone metal or wood is literally a form of idol worship
2nd Commandment “THOU SHALL NOT TAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE”
I never saw a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian who fed their icons with horse meat to trap Saint therein.
Pretending as if icon veneration has something to do with idolatry, when you have expert's research at your finger tips, is beyond me. I think it mostly just makes people uncomfortable and then they search for a reason to justify the emotion.
Very well said!
It was always interesting to me hearing the challenge of Icon Veneration for converts, as growing up as a Catholic kid there were sometimes prayer corners, or pictures of saints or the Blessed Mother, and i remember naturally focusing on them sometimes when on my knees and praying.. so it is more of a gradual shift maybe and easier to understand the difference between veneration and worship
I'm a traditional Anglican in the UK, I think the arguments against incense, icons and relics are frankly ridiculous.
Most of the things accused of being pagan by low church protestants and atheists are actually of medieval Christian origin and there is next to no evidence of any link between them and paganism. In fact, there's more evidence that they are actually Christian and deeply so.
God bless and have a wonderful Christmas when it comes for you
Jesus and Peter didn't use incense in the supper described in John. None of them used icons or crosses, either. It was about the Jewish Messiah. Orthodoxy realized the church Jesus set up was destroyed after He and His apostles were assassinated, so they attempted to (just like the Pharisee and Sadducee) create practices that they felt were Biblical, but weren't.
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Similar argument is made by followers of Hinduism.
Sorry, I can no accept this.
[Deuteronomy 4:16]
16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,
[Leviticus 26:1]
26 “You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the Lord your God.
Old testament when God did not take human form, so it was impossible to represent him. All changed when He took the flesh of man.
That's about worship, to say worship must be done to God alone. Biblical imagery/objects aren't wrong in themselves, it's a sin only when we make them into an idol. And no Christian does that. Veneration ≠ adoration
Veneration is showing respect, not worship. Learn the difference.
Fun fact: Ancient synagogues had images on its wall. Mostly angels.
The key key difference is the concept of _idol_ - where the object itself is the object of worship.
We love others, as is natural, even commanded We love them as images, icons made in the image of God as a foretaste or prefigurement of God's love for us. We don't worship them.
iconoclasm reject the incarnation, this is why is comes from Islam. If you call Jesus an idol, it's rather clear you're not Christian. All iconoclasm rejects the incarnation.