This is actually interesting but I feel like it would be easily exploited by point guards with a short-to-mid range floater (Shai, Trae, Ja, Fox, etc) Edit: Then again, Trae is the only one among them who is an elite shooter so you probably wouldnt run this defense against the others
It's on the side of analytics . Give up higher shot expected value for lower. Like from 1.1-1.3 down to 0.6 -0.8 Not to be used against the KDs or DeRozans however.
@@bballbreakdownJust wondering, what's stopping a big to set a screen near the FT line for a cutter and an easy Alley-Oop pass for the PG who has every delivery angle possible?
@@bballbreakdownIn the frame 1:18, couldn't player 2 pass it to player 1 who just drives in while player 5 sets a screen for player 2 towards the corner for an open 3, and basically do this every time there's a 1v2 near a corner where one sets a screen for a shooter resulting in a 40% short corner 3?
Yeah, the first thing I immediately thought about was the Jazz 2019 vs Harden. This actually kind of worked back then. Took away the step back and good luck taking a floater with 7'2 Gobert right in front of you and your defender breathing down your neck. You obviously cant run this all game but similar to how the heat implement a zone from time to time so could this tactic be used to throw teams off
@@Fidel_cashflo when did the Jazz do this against the Clippers? You dont need to guard the clippers this way, they arent heavy on pnr, they dont have a Harden or Luka. George and Leonard should rather be guarded as the Heat did to Brown and Tatum
@@pipohemm8726 I’m talking about the 2021 series where they blew a 30 pt lead in game 6. Jazz were way over reliant on funneling things to Rudy and offering zero resistance at point of attack. Putting 5 shooters/dribblers on the court made the whole thing collapse
Yeah credit to the rockets who mostly beat it by tossing lobs to a waiting Clint capela on the weak side as gobert helped onto harden, not by harden scoring 50 night. So unless the team you are playing has an elite passer and dunker you’d be pretty much stuck taking tough shots.
@@bballbreakdown why did they stop after 5 possessions?! it would be so cool to see the other team look so confident at first thinking they had one man beat only to end up confused as to why they always "beat" the on ball defender but can't score lol
Reminds me of the Raptors’ defensive scheme the past few years. Nurse had them chasing guys off the line and playing defense from behind. However, it did lead to a lot of overhelping - ironically leading to a lot of wide open threes. Cardio was also a big issue, I can see that also being an issue with this scheme you showed. The innovation is great though!
yeah, the vast majority of good 3s are not off the dribble so you're just inviting paint penetration to collapse the defense and lead to a wide open shot or a dunk. apart from the pull up 3, which very few guys are actually efficient at shooting off a ball screen, you're just giving them the advantage of getting a step ahead of your man that the pnr is designed to do. a few people brought up thybulle and even with his 1 in a billion freak hands and athleticism his poking from behind style causes a lot of breakdowns
A couple offensive counter ideas. 1. You just set up a give and go play for whoever started the play as the PNR ball-handler, it’ll be easier to cut since their defender is already behind them. 2. A mid-range shot drifting left or right, like towards the wings (like the shots you see from Chris Paul a lot). This would put the defender at your side, giving you an open look. 3. Might be hard to pull off, but find a way to quickly get back behind the defender. A side-step into a step-back or something similar may work. If you could manage to do this, it would be an open look every time as there is no way a defender would be able to turn their hips a full 180 degrees in time to get a good hand up. 4. A backwards PNR. Have a screen set on the defender and instead of the ball-handler working their way forward around the screen, have them go backwards. This one would be difficult to coordinate and it would also be difficult to set-up the screen in a way where the defender wouldn’t notice it.
@@bballbreakdownor even easier, instead of shooting a side step mid range jumper just shoot a side step 3 pointer away from the defender. Like the ones harden/luka/curry always take, except instead of stepping back just gather step then hop to the side
This is pretty brilliant and innovative. I love how unorthodox it is. Players get so used to seeing patterns that they know how to exploit them, especially with how skilled they are these days. I’ve never even seen a defense this extreme (other than Grinnel College). Unfortunately, lots of coaches are so set in their ways that they might be a bit closed minded to it.
coach, the legendary obradovic has 'the next man' defensive strategy that might be similar to this, it's also based on constant switches on the perimeter, forcing players to go one way on closeouts, would rhighly recommend checking it out. He did it with Fenerbahce in 2018 very well.
I use the next scheme because it doesn't give up the straight line drive option and send ball to the side of the floor where we can scramble and contain it better.
Hi, Coach. Quick question. So if in a traditional pick and roll, some coaches have stated as a ball handler, take the screen and put the defender "in your back pocket" as you run through the motion. From there, you attack the basket with your roll man, the option being yours to pass or keep. With this defense, wouldn't this be even easier to accomplish as you're removing the screen mechanic? I assume regardless if whether the defender is in front or behind the ball, the screener can still approach the ball then roll towards the basket with the handler attacking (since his man is behind him) and execute the same way? Or is this more geared to driving great 3 point shooters off the line because I can definitely see that.
I did this in high school and always knew it was better, but my coach and peers saw it as a lazy defense. They believed taking pride in guarding your man one-on-one, no matter the outcome, was more important than winning with a new strategy like the one you experiment and implement. Great job coach! Very innovative!
@@JohnTonyan 3s not 2s. Imagine Trae young or steph curry playing against this type of defense. They'd be scoring 20 points a night off of free throws alone
@@oxfordbambooshootify if your x1 keeps getting baited for this he shouldn't be your x1. i'll take a disturbed from behind hunting for a foul 3 from any star any day. their usual shots are already hard to stop.
@@arcticbulktoaster348 that makes no sense. On a high school or collegiate level this scheme may be effective but I don't see it being as productive at the NBA level. You're just going to end up with your players in constant foul trouble and putting the opponents in the bonus and giving the opponents best shooters tons of free throws per game
Coach Nick - Always love the videos! Learning the Xs and Os in 🏀 and sports in general is always dope. With that said…the first thing that came to my mind was if I were the opposing coach on offense, how would I counter this? Ideally you could still dare the defense with a screen on that trailing defender who’s chasing from behind. In that window..the guard/ball handler would raise up for a mid range or 3. And if any of the help defenders bite, the play becomes a simple kick to the wings or baseline cut to the basket.
I was thinking the same thing. So Kerr now has film of this and hopefully (as a Dubs fan) is coming up with better counters. But I thought this defense was brilliant at the time and would love to see more teams run it. Basketball is getting a little repetitive nowadays.
I'm not really afraid of this, but for other teams they don't have an AD caliber defender to lock the paint the same. Although using that chase defense would remove the methods Kerr used to pull AD out given off ball screens and on ball screens wouldn't do the job anymore.
@@travisjohnson6703 I thinked it worked really well because it was AD that was in the paint. He can affect any shot inside the paint, but also still agile enough to actually switch on to Curry in the perimeter as a failsafe. Even Gobert, I think would not have done so well.
Coach, I absolutely LOVE thinking outside the box with concepts like this. Craftiness is a skill that us shorter, less athletic players need to bridge the gap. But my question is, couldn't a player who is substantially longer/faster blast right by, leaving the defender out it no man's land?
I'll tell you exactly to beat this: you get the pass, let the defending player settle behind you, but you don't rush into a drive, leading to a long 2 or an uncontrolled drive into the paint defender with the worry of the not visible player behind you... instead you feel where the defender is, move to cut them off from the basket as much as possible (this is called putting them "in jail"). Then you choose when you attack. You can take a big step up to the three point like and shot the 3 right away... you can be more measured and head to the paint to pull a second defender and kick out, or you can just see a lane (say you have some kind of speed or size advantage) and really attack fast, trying to beat the second defender/ get to the rack before the defender behind you can catch up to cause trouble. The key to this is that instead of being rushed, and then having your options limited/ getting exposed to turnovers because you don't know how close the "wolf" behind you is, you take a second to feel him out, push him back a bit, maybe pick a side if he's playing you more to one side, and then you strike. That way you automatically get a step or two in front of him, and thats all you need. At that point attacking this defense isn't much different than attacking a traditional D after you have beaten your perimeter defender pretty badly. QED. To be fair though, the principles of this are so interesting, you could use them opportunistically at times, and even implement it as a kind of gimmick scheme to surprise teams or deal with particular players. It's still mind-blowing. Thank you Coach Nick, I would give you buckets though.
Interesting. Definitely a scheme towards a team with that specific strength which is a lot of teams now. I could definitely see this creating big stops/momentum swings if used strategically.
The most interesting part of this idea is the closeouts, because you can close out way more aggressively if you're not worried about staying in front of your man. That would take away a lot of catch-and-shoot threes, which is a cool idea, but then the shooter can just take one dribble inside the arc and pull up for a wide open 18-footer. "But that's the shot you want them to take!" Maybe in high school, but NBA players will knock down that shot every single time if you give it to them.
Scottie talked about this when he spoke on how to guard Harden.. Years ago.. Trailing behind the offensive player to deny the shot and force movement..
So, basically create a 5 v 4 in the halfcourt and chase from behind. That's cool. Definitely need a good rim protector and good rotation off ball to on ball on passes. Totally agree with chopping feet to closeouts. I think that's completely wrong and should not be coached. I always liked stabbing one foot or the other on closeout and effectively declaring a side, even the power hand side. The most important thing about defense is to eliminate options by forcing a choice on the offensive player instantly so that you don't have to guess about what's coming next. I never minded trailing the offensive player a half step because he still has to gather the ball before shooting and that half step can be made up then. Nice video and definitely an interesting concept.
From watching your video, It seems like the heat zone has a lot of principals that your defense purposes. I would love a revisit of the most recent nba finals to see what joker/Murray pick and roll did against it.
It would be interesting to see...though that duo is probably one of the most difficult pick and roll/pop duo to defend ever, if not the best. Don't think this defense really applies in that specific situation...those two have too many offensive options in their arsenal :)
Yeah, I was going to say this would have to be personnel specific...but any defense would be anyway. To sit behind Jokic and deny him the three and 'force' him to pass to a cutter or rumble to the basket for a floater...(shudders 😮) ...Miami is going to have PTSD about that for years!
Five defenders looking at the ball and using the sidelines as extra defenders opens up the fluidity of the defense. Would love to see what coach Spo thinks of this, lol.
We ran this in highschool as a matchup zone only difference we overplayed to keep the ball out of the middle and to one side of the court....teams were confused and we knew we had them when they tried to run their man to man offense vs this zone.
@@bballbreakdownsouthern Miss Men’s basketball runs a matchup zone not too different from what he’s describing other than the keep it from the middle.
I love this idea. It’s basically forcing an offense to play inside the perimeter. If you do that and defend the post/interior well enough, teams are going to be forced to put up a midrange shot, which we all know is the worst shot in terms of points per possession in the game.
Love the bravery to implement something like this. I've enjoyed your videos ever since I realized I shot the ball better with a turn instead of square.
In the circle of life, this would bring the game back to inside-out, instead of outside-in. If this works, in the NBA, the big man will, once again, become dominant, as the offense will need a post up terror, to force double teams, for open outside looks
This is probably a stupid question but what’s stopping me from putting the defender in jail since there already behind me then making the big commit to my drive or shot then dumping it off or lobbing it to my big in the paint and If they don’t commit (the big) I can either pull up fast for a foul since I’m running full speed and there on my back with all there momentum
I agree with the question. Nick's philosophy is let them have floaters all they, that's inefficient shot, but what about lob game, that is very efficient
@@Kodreanu23 I watched the defense a little more to try to understand it I think (I could be totally wrong though) that since the defender is behind you he might really be able to actually get a deflection on your lob especially if he’s tall and lanky because he would probably be expecting it obviously against 6 foot casual ymca players that’s not happening but against a 6’7 lanky defender pretty sure he can pull it off thus negating this strategy im a point guard and I’m 6 feet tall and consider myself a capable ball handler but when there’s a guy with a 7 foot wingspan behind you it’s hard to play at your usual pace
I feel this gives up 3pt shooting to knockdown shooters who are role players and strong finishers in the dunker spots. I think this is definitely worth doing at the high school level and even college.
Yeah watching some of those plays, it looks like if you have a guy with a quick trigger in the right spot (alley oop finisher, corner marksman) and even just a decent passer, you could get some really high quality shots. I bet it'd be a great disruptive call for defense though if you switched to it suddenly a few times a game like how the heat would break out their zone coverage in spots over the last few seasons
@@bsn0730 Yeah I can’t imagine playing like this for the majority of the game against good teams with good ball handlers, shooters and passers. Definitely a good disruptor at any level without a doubt though.
interesting how in the past, where slashing/cutting is more "popular", offense put their defender in prison (behind them) is the way to go, but now its seems like totally different.
Selectively use the chase against players who can only shoot 3’s and who don’t have good midrange. While training the other defenders to play ball denial. It could work great against the right opponent.
Feel like only super long range shooter can play against this effectively. It’s really hard to use this if the offense player is 2 steps behind the 3 pt line. But there are only that few players can shoot like that. Sounds fun and workable especially in lower level of basketball
I saw this in spots over the last few years being used here or there. One advantage of the closeout to get behind a player it means body momentum is away from the offensive player and may cut down on this ticky tack fouls on closeouts. When the refs know the scheme is to go by the offensive player then the offensive player moving in front of the moving defender is more likely to be a non-call.
Watch Steve Kerr implement this defense this upcoming season. Kerr did admit to watching coach nick n only coach nick in a past interview, but that was 10 years ago. Still coach nick got Kerr for an interview
My question is what about off ball screens involving forward and off ball guard and even forward and center away from the ball drawing the zone away from the ball handler and allowing for easier penetration and kicks back out
lol when u said "what if we just eliminated the PNR altogether by getting behind the guy with the ball?", my head just immediately went to that clip where gilbert arenas talks about how sorry rubio looked as a defender tryna guard james harden this exact same way. these type of strategies only work on players who lack the abilities to adapt to the multiple speeds of the game. this is mostly just creating a chaotic environment for the opposing team to run they normal offense but it's not stopping an elite scorer who's not afraid of contact and has the ability to score either from midrange or the three, you'll just get embarrassed that night
This is a neat concept but it looks like it should immediately fall apart if the offensive 5 just cuts to thr basket as his own man is forced to step up in the drop coverage
I feel like a lot of teams implement a similar defense already. I could be wrong. It is almost like a matador defense but with the a center like AD getting the guards to funnel into him.
Amazing combination of proven ideas. At first i was sceptical: Houston smoked the jazz in that series. Then i checked the stats: both harden and Paul had a lot turnovers. But the jazz shot 26% from three while Mitchell was 32% overall, no wonder they lost badly. My initial idea to counter this is to have a shooter relocate behind the ballhandler, this would create a 4 on 3 for the ballhandler. However the trail defender on ball could close out to the shooter. Man this is interesting!
This seems like a natural evolution from old school pick-and-roll defense, where the on-ball defender would chase over the top of the screen. They'd end up chasing the ball handler anyways, and the big man would be defending the drive in drop coverage. Every defense has a pick-your-poison element, and at a time where teams have made a conscious effort to move away from the mid-range jumper, forcing offensive players back to the mid-range in new ways makes a lot of sense.
Using this combined with other zone concepts that allow the players to transition from different defensive sets it’s actually top notch. But if used repeatedly, as most sets in basketball, it’s exploitable
Yeah this is basically a more aggressive version of a 1-3-1 zone. Used to run it with my summer team before the pandemic hit and we got mauled with off ball screens and back cuts. In my experience it works best in short spurts of a game to disrupt an opposing team's scoring run, but if you use it as your main defense, smart players will be able to counter it.
This is similar to some of the concepts of what Murcia in Spain runs. Obviously they don't stand directly behind, but their idea is that the 5 man protects the paint and everyone else puts as much pressure as possible to funnel the ball into their 5 man. They play super physical, take on some unconventional positions, and use scouting to force the more talented players on the other team into uncomfortable situations. Similar to what you're explaining here.
i actually tend to always front a big man in pick up and almost prefer to guard from behind/side. its like that video on the unorthodox nba player who does chase defense.
Interesting but even with those guys at the gym, they had a bunch of open *corner* threes and give and go opportunities that I just feel elite level teams (NBA, some FIBA) would destroy. Like other defenses, I think it's probably a good one to try for a few minutes and once they figure it out, switch it up.
id like to see what happens when the offense runs more backdoor cuts and give and go's. It looks like those cuts are more available against this defense. That being said, those become layups challenged by help defense rather than 3's.
Coach, would love to see you breakdown Paul Westhead’s coaching with the Lakers vs Riley’s coaching? Maybe even compare the way he used the system with the Lakers vs his other coaching jobs.
You pull this on someone like Chris Paul, Kyrie or Steph mqybe on steph elite passers and ball handling they will punish you after the 1st quarter. It may be a surprise and bothersome when its initially done Luka would feast you get behind him like that and he will lock you back there
What I would like to examine is how many corner 3s you're letting them, and then apply the average %of that shot against the number of shots you're allowed. It seemed to me this D is like a crazy 1-3-1 which would be easily punished by Euroleague level and most definitely NBA level, but of course it's hard to tell with so little footage.
I’m going into my senior year and we ran a very similar version of this, with the main point forcing the offense left. In theory this works, but we were not good enough at it, not smart enough/to dumb to understand the principles. We got burned whenever we used it.However I could see this working well with a smart team that is athletic.
No joke, I was literally arguing for this on different online discussions and to my dad after Harden started exploding. I was saying it would literally be better to stand behind and to the side to take away his step back 3 and force him to drive for layups or midrange 2's without fouling him.
If I’m not mistaken don’t teams do this already to certain players and it works but gets countered by a high arching shot and/or floater? I’m positive I see this used on Trae a lot
With a guard that knows how to hold their defenders with their back ( someone like dragic used to do this very well) could prob exploit the set quite a bit 😯
Definitely looks disruptive on the perimeter and forces more players to be passers and drivers. Would like to see it implemented in a collegiate or NBA game extensively. Seems like you would need an athletic big that could challenge the middys while also being fleet of foot enough to stick with driving guards. If a guard is playing behind the ball then a big is forced to step up, leaving at best a SF to guard the paint as most teams only play one true big. At 5:11 a lob to an athletic big looks open or even if the guard throws a brick the putback is there for the blue shirt player under the rim.
It’s really hard to do this because drawing a foul is quite easy of you’re an NBA level athlete. I’ve seen Jimmy Butler draw fouls from behind by quickly pulling up and the defender would brush him in the back for a foul. It’s doable if you work at it and stay mindful that any moment the dribbler might abruptly stop. But it’s hard cause you might stay too mindful and then they’ll proceed to drive thru the lane and leave you dusted.
Would the defender being behind the PG lead to wide open vision for passes to cutters? Running a down screen for the screener on the PnR could open him up for corner 3's as well? Just quick thoughts
That’s where the harassment from behind comes in, occupying the ball handler. He’s not just going to stand behind the dribbler passively. The pin down to corners is interesting
Doesn't this mean the ball handler is given middle penetration and a 2 on 1 over the help D? But it sure eliminates the 3s. It may be worth it if the interior D can prevent easy lobs or high percentage shots.
I feel like this would only work if you have a long team. I disagree letting them take 2s floater would work in the long run. But interested in seeing how it will work in practice.
It’s interesting, but what if teams had their players start a bit deeper, and when players come to close out they did a dribble pull up opposite of the close out (dribble to the left against a close out to the right).
What happens on a mid court pick and roll, either by the guard backing out to the mid court or as early offense? the likes of how the clippers ran for cp3? do you still try guarding from the side to avoid the pick? wouldnt that give too much space for a quick guard to explode against a sagging big? I would think you have to play it straight up, and either go under or over depending on matchups
Coach, What if the offense sets a flat ball screen on your 5 man (like in Spain PnR)? Now both your guard and 5 man are behind the play and your bottom defender has to play 2.
Well, the spacing is very tight down there since the big man is below the dotted line… not easy to set a screen in the lane because of the 3 seconds rule… I suppose the answer is that you never see that happen in drop coverage either
@@bballbreakdown I see your point, that would be too crowded. But in many of your clips (1:08 2:32 2:49 3:07 3:18 3:30 etc.) when ball is up top your 5 man is at the FT line. Is he cheating up on those specific plays and supposed to be lower? Thanks for the response btw, been a big fan of yours since 2010.
I could only see this working for a spot play every once in a while at Best a real shooter is shooting if that front guy drops even a little regardless of the guy he knows is behind him
Wherher this works against NBA players, catches on, or not Im happy that theres someone out there trying to upset the status quo. Offense gets too much love and defensive schemes are lacking. For every Steph that this won't work on because of pure skill and IQ there's a dozen guys who would fold more often than not when forced to constantly make fast and smart decisions to the detriment of their PPG. Good job, coach.
im so interested to see if NBA teams start implementing this, current NBA offensive is so one-dimensional for most teams that i have no idea what the counter to this will be.
Coach Nick is gonna get players to start shooting that running one-legged three to counter this.
Lol imagine he creates a new radical defense then creates a new radical offense to counter his own defense
I remember everyone freaking out seeing Harden practicing those shots and he never even implemented them in his offense
Luka hit one vs the clippers in the playoffs
@@adora2423 It's an arms race!
If that's what it takes to beat the defense, then why not? Innovation is important.
This is actually interesting but I feel like it would be easily exploited by point guards with a short-to-mid range floater (Shai, Trae, Ja, Fox, etc)
Edit: Then again, Trae is the only one among them who is an elite shooter so you probably wouldnt run this defense against the others
THat is the whole point! Let the team take as many midrange jumpers and floaters as they like with a hand up in their face
It's on the side of analytics . Give up higher shot expected value for lower. Like from 1.1-1.3 down to 0.6 -0.8 Not to be used against the KDs or DeRozans however.
The point is the eliminate PnR and 3s
trae young played against the heat zone in 22'. He got massacred because he couldn't do anything.
poor shooting PGs also have picks set for them. this scheme eliminates that option regardless on shooting skills.
This is somewhat similar to Mattise Thybulle's defense. He goes to the side of his man rather than in front of him.
thats exactly what I was thinking!
Lol coach did a vid on him, now hes trying to pretend he invented it smh
@@enterpassword3313 dude literally started by saying he is taking from multiple sources, of course he is not serious on that statement
@@captainobvious90 i invented this new drink, i call it lemonade
@@enterpassword3313 Lemonade was popular drink and it still is (I got more props and stunts than Kariniauskas)
Respect Coach Nick, this is wild, I have to digest this. The visibility up top, what can I say, I love this!
I know right! the top guard gets to see everything
@@bballbreakdownJust wondering, what's stopping a big to set a screen near the FT line for a cutter and an easy Alley-Oop pass for the PG who has every delivery angle possible?
@@bballbreakdownIn the frame 1:18, couldn't player 2 pass it to player 1 who just drives in while player 5 sets a screen for player 2 towards the corner for an open 3, and basically do this every time there's a 1v2 near a corner where one sets a screen for a shooter resulting in a 40% short corner 3?
If you’re a young player you should learn to read games from the sideline, so when you get subbed in you know what’s going on lol
Fantastic. Been experimenting with concepts like this for 25 years now. Evolution to be behind, with wings backs to sideline is a cheat code.
Yeah, the first thing I immediately thought about was the Jazz 2019 vs Harden. This actually kind of worked back then. Took away the step back and good luck taking a floater with 7'2 Gobert right in front of you and your defender breathing down your neck. You obviously cant run this all game but similar to how the heat implement a zone from time to time so could this tactic be used to throw teams off
And honestly, floaters are more inefficient than actual middies so you win the possession if they shoot floaters
And then they did it against the Clippers and had the greatest choke job of all time
@@Fidel_cashflo when did the Jazz do this against the Clippers? You dont need to guard the clippers this way, they arent heavy on pnr, they dont have a Harden or Luka. George and Leonard should rather be guarded as the Heat did to Brown and Tatum
@@pipohemm8726 I’m talking about the 2021 series where they blew a 30 pt lead in game 6. Jazz were way over reliant on funneling things to Rudy and offering zero resistance at point of attack. Putting 5 shooters/dribblers on the court made the whole thing collapse
Yeah credit to the rockets who mostly beat it by tossing lobs to a waiting Clint capela on the weak side as gobert helped onto harden, not by harden scoring 50 night. So unless the team you are playing has an elite passer and dunker you’d be pretty much stuck taking tough shots.
I really appreciate the creative problem solving approach here. I look forward to seeing more tape on this defense and how it holds up.
I'd love to see the whole video of the game where they tried this defense. Looks interesting
He ran it on 5 possessions - no points. I'm doing my best to get him to integrate it further for the upcoming season...
@@bballbreakdownYou should be coaching! What the heck?!?!
I could see the raptors running this if nick nurse was still the coach
@@bballbreakdown why did they stop after 5 possessions?! it would be so cool to see the other team look so confident at first thinking they had one man beat only to end up confused as to why they always "beat" the on ball defender but can't score lol
The problem is these players are not NBA level at all
Reminds me of the Raptors’ defensive scheme the past few years. Nurse had them chasing guys off the line and playing defense from behind. However, it did lead to a lot of overhelping - ironically leading to a lot of wide open threes. Cardio was also a big issue, I can see that also being an issue with this scheme you showed. The innovation is great though!
yeah, the vast majority of good 3s are not off the dribble so you're just inviting paint penetration to collapse the defense and lead to a wide open shot or a dunk. apart from the pull up 3, which very few guys are actually efficient at shooting off a ball screen, you're just giving them the advantage of getting a step ahead of your man that the pnr is designed to do. a few people brought up thybulle and even with his 1 in a billion freak hands and athleticism his poking from behind style causes a lot of breakdowns
A couple offensive counter ideas.
1. You just set up a give and go play for whoever started the play as the PNR ball-handler, it’ll be easier to cut since their defender is already behind them.
2. A mid-range shot drifting left or right, like towards the wings (like the shots you see from Chris Paul a lot). This would put the defender at your side, giving you an open look.
3. Might be hard to pull off, but find a way to quickly get back behind the defender. A side-step into a step-back or something similar may work. If you could manage to do this, it would be an open look every time as there is no way a defender would be able to turn their hips a full 180 degrees in time to get a good hand up.
4. A backwards PNR. Have a screen set on the defender and instead of the ball-handler working their way forward around the screen, have them go backwards. This one would be difficult to coordinate and it would also be difficult to set-up the screen in a way where the defender wouldn’t notice it.
Number 4 is hilarious and I’m not sure what the strategic value is. Number 2 is the exact goal of this defense
@@bballbreakdownor even easier, instead of shooting a side step mid range jumper just shoot a side step 3 pointer away from the defender. Like the ones harden/luka/curry always take, except instead of stepping back just gather step then hop to the side
This is pretty brilliant and innovative. I love how unorthodox it is. Players get so used to seeing patterns that they know how to exploit them, especially with how skilled they are these days. I’ve never even seen a defense this extreme (other than Grinnel College). Unfortunately, lots of coaches are so set in their ways that they might be a bit closed minded to it.
coach, the legendary obradovic has 'the next man' defensive strategy that might be similar to this, it's also based on constant switches on the perimeter, forcing players to go one way on closeouts, would rhighly recommend checking it out. He did it with Fenerbahce in 2018 very well.
I use the next scheme because it doesn't give up the straight line drive option and send ball to the side of the floor where we can scramble and contain it better.
Hi, Coach. Quick question. So if in a traditional pick and roll, some coaches have stated as a ball handler, take the screen and put the defender "in your back pocket" as you run through the motion. From there, you attack the basket with your roll man, the option being yours to pass or keep. With this defense, wouldn't this be even easier to accomplish as you're removing the screen mechanic? I assume regardless if whether the defender is in front or behind the ball, the screener can still approach the ball then roll towards the basket with the handler attacking (since his man is behind him) and execute the same way? Or is this more geared to driving great 3 point shooters off the line because I can definitely see that.
That would only work well man to man. That’s why he is also implementing zone defense so every defender has a position they stay at.
I did this in high school and always knew it was better, but my coach and peers saw it as a lazy defense. They believed taking pride in guarding your man one-on-one, no matter the outcome, was more important than winning with a new strategy like the one you experiment and implement.
Great job coach! Very innovative!
I love the closeout with the chase defense. It looks much more natural and disruptive.
I instantly thought about Manu’s block to Harden from behind! Great idea to try coach.
I'm always thinking about Manu's block on Harden. It's like one of my favorite moments in sports history XD
I’ve been thinking a point zone defense is the next evolution of defense, but the chasing is a whole new level.
What's stopping an elite shooter from just stopping on a dime and rising up for the shot to bait fouls from the defender that's chasing him?
Nothing, you’ve already won as a coach if you’ve prompted the other team to start hunting fouls by taking wildly unhinged long 2s
@@JohnTonyan 3s not 2s. Imagine Trae young or steph curry playing against this type of defense. They'd be scoring 20 points a night off of free throws alone
@@oxfordbambooshootify if your x1 keeps getting baited for this he shouldn't be your x1. i'll take a disturbed from behind hunting for a foul 3 from any star any day. their usual shots are already hard to stop.
@@arcticbulktoaster348 that makes no sense. On a high school or collegiate level this scheme may be effective but I don't see it being as productive at the NBA level. You're just going to end up with your players in constant foul trouble and putting the opponents in the bonus and giving the opponents best shooters tons of free throws per game
Yeah this idea is pretty dumb and unoriginal. It’s what the Jazz did for years, so many ways to exploit
Is there any follow up to this? Would love to see how it has been implemented. Love radical ideas!
Coach Nick - Always love the videos! Learning the Xs and Os in 🏀 and sports in general is always dope. With that said…the first thing that came to my mind was if I were the opposing coach on offense, how would I counter this? Ideally you could still dare the defense with a screen on that trailing defender who’s chasing from behind. In that window..the guard/ball handler would raise up for a mid range or 3. And if any of the help defenders bite, the play becomes a simple kick to the wings or baseline cut to the basket.
I remember Kobe saying to guard Steph from the side
And Steph struggled
Very interesting progression Coach Nick 👏🏻
I remember Ricky Rubio doing this to Harden during that stint when he was averaging 40+ points on the rockets
We saw the Lakers do this to the Warriors when they top locked shooters and funneled Steph/Klay/Poole into Anthony Davis.
Yep most I've seen the splash brothers effectively slowed down
I was thinking the same thing. So Kerr now has film of this and hopefully (as a Dubs fan) is coming up with better counters. But I thought this defense was brilliant at the time and would love to see more teams run it. Basketball is getting a little repetitive nowadays.
I'm not really afraid of this, but for other teams they don't have an AD caliber defender to lock the paint the same. Although using that chase defense would remove the methods Kerr used to pull AD out given off ball screens and on ball screens wouldn't do the job anymore.
@@travisjohnson6703 I thinked it worked really well because it was AD that was in the paint. He can affect any shot inside the paint, but also still agile enough to actually switch on to Curry in the perimeter as a failsafe. Even Gobert, I think would not have done so well.
Coach, I absolutely LOVE thinking outside the box with concepts like this. Craftiness is a skill that us shorter, less athletic players need to bridge the gap. But my question is, couldn't a player who is substantially longer/faster blast right by, leaving the defender out it no man's land?
I'll tell you exactly to beat this: you get the pass, let the defending player settle behind you, but you don't rush into a drive, leading to a long 2 or an uncontrolled drive into the paint defender with the worry of the not visible player behind you... instead you feel where the defender is, move to cut them off from the basket as much as possible (this is called putting them "in jail"). Then you choose when you attack. You can take a big step up to the three point like and shot the 3 right away... you can be more measured and head to the paint to pull a second defender and kick out, or you can just see a lane (say you have some kind of speed or size advantage) and really attack fast, trying to beat the second defender/ get to the rack before the defender behind you can catch up to cause trouble. The key to this is that instead of being rushed, and then having your options limited/ getting exposed to turnovers because you don't know how close the "wolf" behind you is, you take a second to feel him out, push him back a bit, maybe pick a side if he's playing you more to one side, and then you strike. That way you automatically get a step or two in front of him, and thats all you need. At that point attacking this defense isn't much different than attacking a traditional D after you have beaten your perimeter defender pretty badly. QED.
To be fair though, the principles of this are so interesting, you could use them opportunistically at times, and even implement it as a kind of gimmick scheme to surprise teams or deal with particular players. It's still mind-blowing. Thank you Coach Nick, I would give you buckets though.
Interesting. Definitely a scheme towards a team with that specific strength which is a lot of teams now. I could definitely see this creating big stops/momentum swings if used strategically.
this is crazy. Thanks for the innovation!
The most interesting part of this idea is the closeouts, because you can close out way more aggressively if you're not worried about staying in front of your man. That would take away a lot of catch-and-shoot threes, which is a cool idea, but then the shooter can just take one dribble inside the arc and pull up for a wide open 18-footer. "But that's the shot you want them to take!" Maybe in high school, but NBA players will knock down that shot every single time if you give it to them.
NBA coaches watch this channel. Fully expect to see this implented next season! Love your channel coach Nick!
As chaotic as it looks, it would make college games more fun to watch. They just pass it around the 3 point line for 20 seconds of the possession.
Scottie talked about this when he spoke on how to guard Harden.. Years ago.. Trailing behind the offensive player to deny the shot and force movement..
So, basically create a 5 v 4 in the halfcourt and chase from behind. That's cool. Definitely need a good rim protector and good rotation off ball to on ball on passes. Totally agree with chopping feet to closeouts. I think that's completely wrong and should not be coached. I always liked stabbing one foot or the other on closeout and effectively declaring a side, even the power hand side. The most important thing about defense is to eliminate options by forcing a choice on the offensive player instantly so that you don't have to guess about what's coming next. I never minded trailing the offensive player a half step because he still has to gather the ball before shooting and that half step can be made up then. Nice video and definitely an interesting concept.
wouldn't the chase on the wings provide the guards easy middle-penetration?
you should set out to design an offence to beat your new defence, like work out how to get an open 3 against this defence.
Coach, you should get some practice jerseys so it's easier to see the teams
From watching your video, It seems like the heat zone has a lot of principals that your defense purposes.
I would love a revisit of the most recent nba finals to see what joker/Murray pick and roll did against it.
It would be interesting to see...though that duo is probably one of the most difficult pick and roll/pop duo to defend ever, if not the best. Don't think this defense really applies in that specific situation...those two have too many offensive options in their arsenal :)
Yeah, I was going to say this would have to be personnel specific...but any defense would be anyway. To sit behind Jokic and deny him the three and 'force' him to pass to a cutter or rumble to the basket for a floater...(shudders 😮) ...Miami is going to have PTSD about that for years!
It is also a 2K defense where most guards three hunts. And as a lock you gotta go over the screen and hip ride from the sides
Five defenders looking at the ball and using the sidelines as extra defenders opens up the fluidity of the defense. Would love to see what coach Spo thinks of this, lol.
We ran this in highschool as a matchup zone only difference we overplayed to keep the ball out of the middle and to one side of the court....teams were confused and we knew we had them when they tried to run their man to man offense vs this zone.
Love it.. any video footage??
@@bballbreakdownsouthern Miss Men’s basketball runs a matchup zone not too different from what he’s describing other than the keep it from the middle.
I love this idea. It’s basically forcing an offense to play inside the perimeter. If you do that and defend the post/interior well enough, teams are going to be forced to put up a midrange shot, which we all know is the worst shot in terms of points per possession in the game.
We want the offense, it's that simple. Defense today is so much more cerebral, done right it is beautiful to watch.
Love the bravery to implement something like this. I've enjoyed your videos ever since I realized I shot the ball better with a turn instead of square.
Awesome, thx!
A few years ago, scottie pippen explained he'd defend harden this exact way when he was asked how he'd do it if he was playing today.
In the circle of life, this would bring the game back to inside-out, instead of outside-in. If this works, in the NBA, the big man will, once again, become dominant, as the offense will need a post up terror, to force double teams, for open outside looks
This is probably a stupid question but what’s stopping me from putting the defender in jail since there already behind me then making the big commit to my drive or shot then dumping it off or lobbing it to my big in the paint and If they don’t commit (the big) I can either pull up fast for a foul since I’m running full speed and there on my back with all there momentum
I agree with the question. Nick's philosophy is let them have floaters all they, that's inefficient shot, but what about lob game, that is very efficient
@@Kodreanu23 I watched the defense a little more to try to understand it I think (I could be totally wrong though) that since the defender is behind you he might really be able to actually get a deflection on your lob especially if he’s tall and lanky because he would probably be expecting it obviously against 6 foot casual ymca players that’s not happening but against a 6’7 lanky defender pretty sure he can pull it off thus negating this strategy im a point guard and I’m 6 feet tall and consider myself a capable ball handler but when there’s a guy with a 7 foot wingspan behind you it’s hard to play at your usual pace
I feel this gives up 3pt shooting to knockdown shooters who are role players and strong finishers in the dunker spots. I think this is definitely worth doing at the high school level and even college.
Yeah watching some of those plays, it looks like if you have a guy with a quick trigger in the right spot (alley oop finisher, corner marksman) and even just a decent passer, you could get some really high quality shots. I bet it'd be a great disruptive call for defense though if you switched to it suddenly a few times a game like how the heat would break out their zone coverage in spots over the last few seasons
@@bsn0730 Yeah I can’t imagine playing like this for the majority of the game against good teams with good ball handlers, shooters and passers. Definitely a good disruptor at any level without a doubt though.
interesting how in the past, where slashing/cutting is more "popular", offense put their defender in prison (behind them) is the way to go, but now its seems like totally different.
Selectively use the chase against players who can only shoot 3’s and who don’t have good midrange. While training the other defenders to play ball denial. It could work great against the right opponent.
Feel like only super long range shooter can play against this effectively. It’s really hard to use this if the offense player is 2 steps behind the 3 pt line. But there are only that few players can shoot like that. Sounds fun and workable especially in lower level of basketball
Coach Nick's defense makes opposing teams watch a video sponsor ad until the shot clock runs out.
I saw this in spots over the last few years being used here or there. One advantage of the closeout to get behind a player it means body momentum is away from the offensive player and may cut down on this ticky tack fouls on closeouts. When the refs know the scheme is to go by the offensive player then the offensive player moving in front of the moving defender is more likely to be a non-call.
I always go behind or to the side when I know they take forever and dribble too much or if they can't drive. Then I get the ball back when they miss
Your 5 is going to get in foul trouble and if you youre undersized at the 5 it will be a problem. Guards will attack and finish over them.
Watch Steve Kerr implement this defense this upcoming season. Kerr did admit to watching coach nick n only coach nick in a past interview, but that was 10 years ago. Still coach nick got Kerr for an interview
Oh, he said the same thing in the interview I just dropped 2 weeks ago!!
My question is what about off ball screens involving forward and off ball guard and even forward and center away from the ball drawing the zone away from the ball handler and allowing for easier penetration and kicks back out
Coach, I hope we could see a video of modern pnr offenses trying to score on this defense instead of just a probing offense.
lol when u said "what if we just eliminated the PNR altogether by getting behind the guy with the ball?", my head just immediately went to that clip where gilbert arenas talks about how sorry rubio looked as a defender tryna guard james harden this exact same way.
these type of strategies only work on players who lack the abilities to adapt to the multiple speeds of the game. this is mostly just creating a chaotic environment for the opposing team to run they normal offense but it's not stopping an elite scorer who's not afraid of contact and has the ability to score either from midrange or the three, you'll just get embarrassed that night
This is a neat concept but it looks like it should immediately fall apart if the offensive 5 just cuts to thr basket as his own man is forced to step up in the drop coverage
A clickbait that actually blew my mind away. Definitely changed my perspective! I love this game is always evolving.
I feel like a lot of teams implement a similar defense already. I could be wrong.
It is almost like a matador defense but with the a center like AD getting the guards to funnel into him.
I think this chase defence could really suit someone like matisse thy ulle who already often defends from behind the ball with chaos and deflections
Amazing combination of proven ideas. At first i was sceptical: Houston smoked the jazz in that series. Then i checked the stats: both harden and Paul had a lot turnovers. But the jazz shot 26% from three while Mitchell was 32% overall, no wonder they lost badly.
My initial idea to counter this is to have a shooter relocate behind the ballhandler, this would create a 4 on 3 for the ballhandler. However the trail defender on ball could close out to the shooter. Man this is interesting!
This seems like a natural evolution from old school pick-and-roll defense, where the on-ball defender would chase over the top of the screen. They'd end up chasing the ball handler anyways, and the big man would be defending the drive in drop coverage. Every defense has a pick-your-poison element, and at a time where teams have made a conscious effort to move away from the mid-range jumper, forcing offensive players back to the mid-range in new ways makes a lot of sense.
EXACTLY!!
This is nice im going to use this in the new 2k, NBA2K24 and use it against Playstation players.
Using this combined with other zone concepts that allow the players to transition from different defensive sets it’s actually top notch.
But if used repeatedly, as most sets in basketball, it’s exploitable
Yeah this is basically a more aggressive version of a 1-3-1 zone. Used to run it with my summer team before the pandemic hit and we got mauled with off ball screens and back cuts. In my experience it works best in short spurts of a game to disrupt an opposing team's scoring run, but if you use it as your main defense, smart players will be able to counter it.
Yes look at what the Clippers were able to do to the Jazz with 5 out. Drive, kick, and get a full head of steam at the rim protector
This is similar to some of the concepts of what Murcia in Spain runs. Obviously they don't stand directly behind, but their idea is that the 5 man protects the paint and everyone else puts as much pressure as possible to funnel the ball into their 5 man. They play super physical, take on some unconventional positions, and use scouting to force the more talented players on the other team into uncomfortable situations. Similar to what you're explaining here.
i actually tend to always front a big man in pick up and almost prefer to guard from behind/side. its like that video on the unorthodox nba player who does chase defense.
Interesting but even with those guys at the gym, they had a bunch of open *corner* threes and give and go opportunities that I just feel elite level teams (NBA, some FIBA) would destroy. Like other defenses, I think it's probably a good one to try for a few minutes and once they figure it out, switch it up.
id like to see what happens when the offense runs more backdoor cuts and give and go's. It looks like those cuts are more available against this defense. That being said, those become layups challenged by help defense rather than 3's.
I remember Scottie Pippen trying to explain this concept when T-Mac asked him how he would defend James Harden
Coach, would love to see you breakdown Paul Westhead’s coaching with the Lakers vs Riley’s coaching? Maybe even compare the way he used the system with the Lakers vs his other coaching jobs.
If spacing is the superpower that offenses have been using, then cut that off by putting a box on them, defending from outside. Genius (and crazy)
I love this new concept, definitely gonna start implementing it with my team 👍
You pull this on someone like Chris Paul, Kyrie or Steph mqybe on steph elite passers and ball handling they will punish you after the 1st quarter. It may be a surprise and bothersome when its initially done Luka would feast you get behind him like that and he will lock you back there
I think this can be beaten with crisp passing and quick shooting. However I think it could work even in the NBA. Impressive.
What I would like to examine is how many corner 3s you're letting them, and then apply the average %of that shot against the number of shots you're allowed. It seemed to me this D is like a crazy 1-3-1 which would be easily punished by Euroleague level and most definitely NBA level, but of course it's hard to tell with so little footage.
I’m going into my senior year and we ran a very similar version of this, with the main point forcing the offense left. In theory this works, but we were not good enough at it, not smart enough/to dumb to understand the principles. We got burned whenever we used it.However I could see this working well with a smart team that is athletic.
Any defense can be scored on. I feel if you have joker in the post and put more of his guys on one side it’ll negate the zone
No joke, I was literally arguing for this on different online discussions and to my dad after Harden started exploding. I was saying it would literally be better to stand behind and to the side to take away his step back 3 and force him to drive for layups or midrange 2's without fouling him.
I’m not going to dislike out of respect for all your previous content.
If I’m not mistaken don’t teams do this already to certain players and it works but gets countered by a high arching shot and/or floater? I’m positive I see this used on Trae a lot
With a guard that knows how to hold their defenders with their back ( someone like dragic used to do this very well) could prob exploit the set quite a bit 😯
I actually really like this defensive concept
Definitely looks disruptive on the perimeter and forces more players to be passers and drivers.
Would like to see it implemented in a collegiate or NBA game extensively.
Seems like you would need an athletic big that could challenge the middys while also being fleet of foot enough to stick with driving guards.
If a guard is playing behind the ball then a big is forced to step up, leaving at best a SF to guard the paint as most teams only play one true big. At 5:11 a lob to an athletic big looks open or even if the guard throws a brick the putback is there for the blue shirt player under the rim.
It’s really hard to do this because drawing a foul is quite easy of you’re an NBA level athlete. I’ve seen Jimmy Butler draw fouls from behind by quickly pulling up and the defender would brush him in the back for a foul. It’s doable if you work at it and stay mindful that any moment the dribbler might abruptly stop. But it’s hard cause you might stay too mindful and then they’ll proceed to drive thru the lane and leave you dusted.
Wow, just wow. We will Def see this in the near future, I just hope that you get some credit.
Would the defender being behind the PG lead to wide open vision for passes to cutters? Running a down screen for the screener on the PnR could open him up for corner 3's as well? Just quick thoughts
That’s where the harassment from behind comes in, occupying the ball handler. He’s not just going to stand behind the dribbler passively. The pin down to corners is interesting
Doesn't this mean the ball handler is given middle penetration and a 2 on 1 over the help D? But it sure eliminates the 3s. It may be worth it if the interior D can prevent easy lobs or high percentage shots.
I feel like this would only work if you have a long team. I disagree letting them take 2s floater would work in the long run. But interested in seeing how it will work in practice.
It’s interesting, but what if teams had their players start a bit deeper, and when players come to close out they did a dribble pull up opposite of the close out (dribble to the left against a close out to the right).
Sounds like a hard shot
This D does open more midrange, but I would love to see this go against PnR offense instead of drive and kick.
I see Curry and others like him get guys on their back like that on purpose and absolutely destroy them
What happens on a mid court pick and roll, either by the guard backing out to the mid court or as early offense? the likes of how the clippers ran for cp3? do you still try guarding from the side to avoid the pick? wouldnt that give too much space for a quick guard to explode against a sagging big? I would think you have to play it straight up, and either go under or over depending on matchups
Interesting video but how hard is it for players to bring a reversible vest?!
Coach, What if the offense sets a flat ball screen on your 5 man (like in Spain PnR)? Now both your guard and 5 man are behind the play and your bottom defender has to play 2.
Well, the spacing is very tight down there since the big man is below the dotted line… not easy to set a screen in the lane because of the 3 seconds rule… I suppose the answer is that you never see that happen in drop coverage either
@@bballbreakdown I see your point, that would be too crowded. But in many of your clips (1:08 2:32 2:49 3:07 3:18 3:30 etc.) when ball is up top your 5 man is at the FT line. Is he cheating up on those specific plays and supposed to be lower? Thanks for the response btw, been a big fan of yours since 2010.
Looks like a box and 1 but with a player chasing instead of being in front. Nice
This works crazy good, but it takes a lot of stamina and only really works if you have an elite rim protector!
This defense is bad against quick transition paced or "run and gun" offense too
I could only see this working for a spot play every once in a while at Best a real shooter is shooting if that front guy drops even a little regardless of the guy he knows is behind him
Wherher this works against NBA players, catches on, or not Im happy that theres someone out there trying to upset the status quo. Offense gets too much love and defensive schemes are lacking. For every Steph that this won't work on because of pure skill and IQ there's a dozen guys who would fold more often than not when forced to constantly make fast and smart decisions to the detriment of their PPG. Good job, coach.
im so interested to see if NBA teams start implementing this, current NBA offensive is so one-dimensional for most teams that i have no idea what the counter to this will be.