Owen, I’m here to announce that with the release of Nick Spencer’s Amazing Spider-Man #73, Sins Past has officially retconned this story from existence
@@sheilamartinez4307 it’s true, It was a trick from Harry Osborn, is he used mysterio to make Norman believe that Sarah and Gabriel are just testtube clones
This feels like the kind of story idea you’d make up if you were drunk, high and having a bet with your friends over who could come up with the worst comic book idea possible.
Then when your drunk again and come up with an idea to retcon the worst comic book idea that’s somehow even more nonsensical and convoluted than the original idea.
Joe Quesada's obsession with not letting Peter grow up and become an adult or develop as a character and keeping him as a permanent teenager to use him as a self insert because that's what Quesada wants to be is annoying.
Pretty much. Quesada's basically the kind of writer who lets his enthusiasm for a character take charge in a story, rather than simply, you know, telling a good story!
@@alexdawson4571 Exactly. Writers like Quesada are the reason character development and consistency are criticized in comics, great writers (like Jason Aaron) take the existing lore and build up upon to create their own fresh take in their run.
One thing I like about adaptations and non canon comic stories from both marvel and DC, is that they actually let the characters grow and develop. Unlike the actual continuity in both universes.
Never forget; Marvel considered Gwen cheating on Peter with NORMAN OSBORN more acceptable than having Peter being a father (or God forbid, have concrete confirmation Peter is not a virgin). And this mentality hasnt change after all these years, they will never, ever, let Peter grow up, which pretty much makes the character incredible boring for anyone who tries to follow his comic books for more than a few years.
Before OMD he got Marry Jane Pregnant during the second clone Saga so Peter is not a virgin! But I am pretty sure OMD retconned that and made Peter a virgina again
This is one of the things that I enjoy about modern superman (even if some of the comics aren’t too good). He does grow up because of things like how he’s dad now, both of his very old parents have died, and how him not physically aging makes sense because of him being kryptonion on a planet with a yellow sun.
It would have even more acceptable if Gwen cheating on Peter with some ABC(unintentional sex between ABC and Gwen) instead of Norman Osborn. Why on Earth they decided Norman Osborn? If Gwen had unintentional sex with ABC and with Gwen taking responsibility of them and realising his mistake and they could give a proper convincing reasoning behind this, it would have been much better storyline.
If Peter grows up it is the end of the spiderman comics. They need this to go on for years, So a status quo has to be maintained. That is why Batman can never settle down, or any mainstream hero's wedding cannot be permanent,
Looking back at this, I would be WAY MORE accepting of this story if Gabriel and Sarah were Parker's kids, would it be great, probably not, but I wouldn't have a moaning Gwen, with Tommy Lee Jones Norman snd grinning Goblin burned into my mind.
The thing that went wrong is that the storyline was allowed to see print in the first place. Even if the story hadn’t been changed by editorial, JMS should have known what a grenade this was.
@@NamaTheNerd no it isn't, as a fans have overwhelming preferred MJ since her introduction to Gwen. If they kept the original idea, it would be them deciding let’s kill Peter and MJ's kid, but we'll let Gwen have kids with Peter. It would have been a slap in the face to the fans and destroyed beautifully written reconciliation between Peter and Mj.
The one thing that has turned me off to reading Spider-man comics over the years has been the editor’s incessant urge to trap Peter Parker in time, preventing him from ever aging or developing into a better, wiser person. When I was a kid, the idea of reading a comic series that spans over fifty years of continuity was fascinating to me. There’s no way a movie or tv show would go on long enough to show its protagonist graduate high school, go through college, have a career, get married, have a family, and keep getting better at being a superhero all over one long narrative. But then I found out how hard they tried to reverse Peter’s character development and it just made the whole thing seem stupid. No one is satisfied when stories undo all the progress they’ve made. Peter ought to be a father of two by now. With a beard and a badass armored suit that he designed himself. Instead he’s back to living in apartments and going on dates with MJ to the bowling alley ffs. How could they have been so short sighted?
The more irritating thing is that it also means that there's no reason for multiple versions of one character. There's no passing of the torch and the continuity gets jumbled. It's a good thing that a universe with a sliding timescale does exist and can be expanded on.
I understand them trying to slow his growth, but it's like not one meaningful step forward has been made in, like, 25 years of real time. That's ridiculous.
@noodle Yeah I noticed that too, when they're on the ship in ASM #850 and he references the storyline. The funny thing is, it actually works well, because it provides Peter for more motivation for his big decision at the end of the issue, so I'd say that reference was ok.
Thank God this was retconned by Nick Spencer. Turns out Norman Osborn was being manipulated by Mysterio and an AI of Harry. The kids are genetic clones and not actually Norman and Gwen's children. For years I hated Gwen Stacy after reading this story until it was retconned.
@@abdullayaser700 How about retconning it into a vividly intense fever dream induced by bad pizza that’s been sitting out of Spider-Man’s fridge for too long?
3:29 And that's exactly the difference between J. Stranzyski and Joe Quesada; one wanted to further build-up an iconic character who existed for decades and the other selfishly wanted to halt all his character development so he be just like how he remembers him to be.
One thing that bothers me the most about this decision is that Peter isn't allowed to age, but Gwen is. Like... I dunno, it makes no goddamn sense to me. Also, I see no problem with characters growing up; in fact, I love when they do, instead of being stuck in time. And the whole affair Gwen had with Norman also doesn't make sense to me. I really don't like to consider the existence of this story, to be honest.
I think this story was an attempt to make Gwen a bit more flawed because she got treated too much like a perfect saint after her death. You can be an innocent and good person without being flawless. But there's a difference between flawed and out of character which is what she was here.
I think Spider-Gwen handles this much better in Sins Rising or some other Last Remains prologue by telling Peter that whoever his version of Gwen was, he was over glorifying her, cuz whatever she was, she wasn't a saint.
It makes me sad that the same writer who is responsable for my favorite run on any spider-man title also had something to do with the one story that gives one more day a run for it's money as the worst spidey story ever.
Well Joe Quesada is the one that created the idea of the affair. Then he did One More Day as well. I was not surprised at all when I found out that Joe Quesada was the one that came up with the idea of it. I had previously just thought it was Editorial, but honestly, considering Quesada was the creator of OMD, I guess it makes sense.
Peter be lookin mad bruh like "finding out your girlfriend slept with your greatest foe then have babies in secret and killed shortly after by said foe" kind of angry boi
I kinda wonder what Dr. Miles Warran (Jackal) would react he if found out Gwen had an affair with Norman. On a related side note: What is it with Gwen Stacy pairing up with creepy old men?!
His run was not that bad. The first half anyway. The second half (except going down swinging) was a mess. Just my opinion. Plesse do not bite my head off
The Clone Saga was horrid at the time, but at least it added Ben Reiley and Kaine to canon and didn't really assassinate any existing characters. Sins Past and OMD on the other hand...
@@aidanklobuchar1798 the clone saga almost ended up with around 149-410 having Spider-Man be a clone and ben Reilly the real peter which is why it became convoluted as a test was done revealing that which was retconned with the test being swapped
Thank God, Nick Spencer finally retconned this bs. Norman and Gwen never slept together, she was never attracted by his animal magnetism. Mysterio used hypnotic suggestion to mark Norman believe he slept with Gwen, Mendel Stromm created clones of Harry and Gwen that were Gabe and Sarah, made to believe they were the children of Peter and hunt him down. Mysterio implanted the memories in MJ's mind.
It seems that most of the time when the JMS run on Spider-Man comes up in conversation, people like to bring up One More Day as the worst disaster to come out of it, and I'm always like "Uhhhh, have you read Sins Past?" Really interesting to learn about the series of unfortunate events that led to its creation.
OMD was worse than Sins Past. Sins Past, we can use continuity and pretend it never happened. One More Day is impossible to pretend it never happened, because it changed and reset the entire life of Spider-Man. Everything we read nowadays is because of One More Day.
@@knightgallade8431 Yeah but none of the stories in the 102 issues of One More Day were good (except Rage of the Rhino which could’ve been fine without it!). Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Island, and Go Down Swinging all could’ve been done without One More Day. One of the biggest problems with One More Dy is thag it lead to 100 issues of unreadable trash.
@@knightgallade8431 To each their own. I think One More Day is the worst cuz Sins Past we all forget about but One More Day altered the Spider-Man continuity completely. The problem with the stories after One More Day is... they just aren't Spider-Man. Its some 10 year old making non-humorous jokes fighting forgettable villains. It gets slightly better when they bring back the classic villains, but even then its meh and we have to deal with hat awful Kraven family.
This story was at the start of my downward spiral with respecting Marvel's editing staff for having common sense. I want to say that after they ruled out the kids being Peter's, they also ruled out Norman assaulting Gwen, so we ended up with Gwen willfully sleeping with Norman, which was the worst possible version of that story. And they tossed in MJ keeping secrets from Peter on top of that. Mind you, their entire thing was not wanting Peter to seem old, and not wanting to write a married Peter because "it's too hard." Yet they came up with all of this.
It never did or could've. Because its said to happen between Issue 91 and 98, while Gwen is in London. But Norman Osborn is in New York the entire time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention that it's stated to happen while Peter is on assignment in Canada, which happened right before Gwen's death and during a time where Gwen was in New York.
@@OverlyPositiveFanboy I'm confused when it happened. I've heard this thing about it being Canada when he was fighting the Hulk. But then I also think the main story said it was when she was in London several months after her fathers death but it wasn't several months it was a few weeks), and then Marvel says it was in ASM #61.
They really should have allowed Gab and Sara be Peter's children. Even this is much better than Gwen having an affair with GOBLIN for Christ's sake because of his "charisma" or whatever
@@Jose-se9pu yeah... is it just me or Marvel is painting Peter as a saint? He's too kind, has such a strong sense of guilt and responsibility, doesn't drink or smoke and... he doesn't even have sex before marriage?!
I think it would have worked pretty well if they were Peter's kids. The series is structured interestingly in the beginning with a letter of the dead Gwen, but once it's revealed that they are Norman's kids it becomes dumb
if you think about this one thing that Spider-Man has in common with Superman both of them have been screwed over by writers that don't want to deal with writing around a certain dynamic, in Spider-Man's case it was his marriage because Roger Stern didn't want to write about a married spiderman, so he chose to leave Marvel for a Time, when he came back to write Spider-Man in 2007 I'm guessing part of the deal was marvel would wipe away the marriage, and if you look at DC the same thing happened to Superman Bendis did not want have to write around the family dynamic so he ruins it, he also turns around and does nothing that messed up Spider-Man which was revealing his secret identity.
Actually it wasn't Roger Stern. The whole thing with Spider man was because of Joe Quesada and Marvel editor who wanted do get rid of the marrige because they felt it made Peter look to older and took him away from his status quo establish by his creators, Stan lee and Jack Kirby, as teenager who the reader was able to relate.
Wait wtf?????? Where are you getting your facts from? Roger Stern's run was back in the 80's and it's one of the greatest runs ever. Stern wrote Spider-Man before he was married. He is also the one that brought back Mary Jane and started building up her and Peter after Marv Wolfman got rid of her cuz he didn't want to write those stories. Stern left Spider-Man in 1985 to write Avengers, leaving a legacy of great stories like Nothing Can Stop The Juggernaut, The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man, and the creation of the Hobgoblin, one of Spider-Man's greatest villains. He handed it over to DeFalco, who continued his good work. Peter and MJ were married in 1987 written by David Michelinie at the beginning of his run in ASM Annual #21. Stern had nothing to do with any of this. Spider-Man was screwed over by Quesada, who didn't want to write about a married Spider-Man, and thought everybody felt the same way, which was not true cuz Straczynski wrote a bunch of amazing stories with a married Spider-Man and sales were as high as ever, so Quesada decided to write One More Day. I don't know how you think Roger Stern fits in, because he only returned to write The Hobgoblin Lives Miniseries to fix the Hobgoblin mess, and Something Can Stop The Juggernaut, which was during the Gauntlet era in 2011.
There was a recent TASM comic in Nick Spencer’s run that has 616 Goblin meet Spider-Gwen. Let’s just say that he said some stuff that provoked both Peter and Gwen. It somewhat implies Sin’s Past, but it also can just be that Norman was just trying to provoke Peter since he liked how he made Peter suffer with Gwen’s death and Sin’s Past didn’t really happy.
@@majorastormNick Spencer’s Spider-Man run. Which actually revealed in the end that Sins Past didn’t happen and it was a fabrication that Harry Osborn created before his death during his time as the Goblin to fuck with Peter and Norman. They were clones of Norman and Gwen that Kindred (who was Harry) used to for his own gain (the clones are now dead in the comics).
I’m currently writing a pretty long essay as a final and this video is comforting because I know that no matter what I turn in, it won’t be as bad as Sins Past.. then again your video on the arc is well written and that’s something I know I can’t do lol
Why did Marvel try so hard to ruin Spider-Man in early 2000s? First ruining the legacy of Gwen Stacy. Next the useless "Other" storyline which killed Peter off only to revive in next issue and give him mystical powers no one liked and they retconned out of canon in Brand New Day. And then they unmasked Spider-Man, which of course turned Aunt May and MJ into targets. Worst happened later when May was dying and Marvel instead of letting May die (this time for good), they rebooted whole universe only because Marvel was afraid of letting Peter stay as married grown up man and wanted him to become an annoying man-child. And then Dan Slott took over and any hope of Spider-Man comic books getting better went to hell. Thank God for Nick Spencer amd his run on Amazing Spider-Man for last 2 years. I'm finally really enjoy reading Spider-Man comics.
Yeah me too. Last Remains is the first big storyline I'm enjoying in a while. If not for COVID, we'd probs already be in the Fallout of Kindred. The Last Remains plot thread is going to go on till ASM #60 in February, even though the story ends in 2 weeks. The only thing I dont like is that Spider-Man won't get to be in King in Black, cuz he's dealing with the biggest story since One More Day itself.
I know it's been retconned but I've been reading these older chapters where Gwen was still alive and I can't believe that someone who read these stories could write something like this. Gwen's a good kid that adored Peter and wanted nothing more than to be with him, she doesn't even interact with Norman and even if she did, the thought of Gwen cheating on Peter with Osborn genuinenly makes me sick... Also, where would be timeframe have been for the cheating? These older issues show a lot of Gwen's daily life, girl couldn't have had time for another man
So I was about 5, a really big spider-man fan, and my dad bought me a spider-man comic book. It was Sins past. I was very excited to read it, but when I finished it, I was, let's say, confused...
Amazing video Owen! Sins past has always been interesting to me, this and One More Day, as much as I’m not a fan of the actual story, I do feel in both instances Straczynski manages to write them really well, like the dialogue and stuff, and it’s just the general concepts I don’t like. It just a,ways amazes me how I’m able to enjoy reading the actual issues even though I hate what happens in them.
Honestly, they should reintroduce Gabe, then just have a story arc where he tries to kill spiderman, then learns he is the son of Norman and some random woman. As for Mary Jane saying she overheard a conversation, just have her say "oh well, I guess I misheard them."
There's a better way. Make it that Norman Osborn wanted clones of himself and so used the Jackal's tech and facilities that he had during the clone saga to make a male and female clone similar to himself. Since the Jackal was obsessed with Gwen and made a million clones of her, the default template for the female Clone structure was Gwen, which led to Sarah looking like her, and then he implanted the memories that Peter was their father and abandoned them and that Spider-Man killed Gwen and that Norman had raised them. So then they go after Spider-Man for revenge and the same storyline happens. Norman gets a handwriting expert to copy Gwen's handwriting and forge a letter, sending it to Peter, then kidnaps MJ, implants memories of the conversation that she overheard of Gwen and Norman, and removing any memories of Osborn kidnapping her, and putting it in her memory that she's been hiding it from Peter this whole time. He does this secretly while Peter is off on his hunt with the two assassins. This would also fixed the issue of MJ hiding this from Peter all those years, because in reality, she was made to believe that because Osborn had just implanted that memory in her. As for the DNA test, well, Osborn has a history of faking DNA tests. In Sins Past, the twins knew that Peter would go to the DNA facility, so Osborn probably knew too, and he could've had people watching any test site in New York and alert him so he could manipulate the tests. The only thing left is that Gabe and Sarah thought they were aging fast because of Spider-Man's blood, and then the story says that it was actually because of Osborn's blood. Well that memory could've just been implanted, along with the rest of their memories of rapidly growing up, and Osborn would implant these ideas in order to 1. Make the kids hate Spider-man for giving them an early death and 2. Convince them to take the Goblin formula as a cure to the aging (which in the original storyline, Gabe does). There, Sins Past retconned.
Can't wait to hear your thoughts on it but to answer the question of the title? The fact the marvel writers thought it was ok to make gwen stacy absolutely fine with sleeping with Norman Osborne, her and peter during this time were dating. So who allowed this idea to get off the ground? Who thought it was a good idea.
The original idea was that they were Peter’s kids and Norman secretly kidnapped, experimented and raised them to kill Spider-Man. Joe Quesada forced JMS to change the story. He did the same thing with forcing JMS to write One More Day, apparently, which is why the last issue of that story wasn’t written by JMS, but by Quesada.
Sat down after a busy morning, got my nice plate of food. Seen the update of your video. Played it as i ate and it was one of the most relaxing lunches ive had. Perfect story telling. Thank YOU
Easy way to undo Sins Past. Make it that Norman Osborn wanted clones of himself and so used the Jackal's tech and facilities that he had during the clone saga to make a male and female clone similar to himself. Since the Jackal was obsessed with Gwen and made a million clones of her, the default template for the female Clone structure was Gwen, which led to Sarah looking like her, and then he implanted the memories that Peter was their father and abandoned them and that Spider-Man killed Gwen and that Norman had raised them. So then they go after Spider-Man for revenge and the same storyline happens. Norman gets a handwriting expert to copy Gwen's handwriting and forge a letter, sending it to Peter, then kidnaps MJ, implants memories of the conversation that she overheard of Gwen and Norman, and removing any memories of Osborn kidnapping her, and putting it in her memory that she's been hiding it from Peter this whole time. He does this secretly while Peter is off on his hunt with the two assassins. This would also fixed the issue of MJ hiding this from Peter all those years, because in reality, she was made to believe that because Osborn had just implanted that memory in her. As for the DNA test, well, Osborn has a history of faking DNA tests. In Sins Past, the twins knew that Peter would go to the DNA facility, so Osborn probably knew too, and he could've had people watching any test site in New York and alert him so he could manipulate the tests. The only thing left is that Gabe and Sarah thought they were aging fast because of Spider-Man's blood, and then the story says that it was actually because of Osborn's blood. Well that memory could've just been implanted, along with the rest of their memories of rapidly growing up, and Osborn would implant these ideas in order to 1. Make the kids hate Spider-man for giving them an early death and 2. Convince them to take the Goblin formula as a cure to the aging (which in the original storyline, Gabe does). There, Sins Past retconned.
I only have one issue from this saga, and as I recall it was the one where MJ told Peter the truth about Norman and Gwen, which grossed me out 🤮. I chose then and now to deny that Gwen would ever let that vile man touch her.
It could have been better if Norman (the human being) was truly infatuated with Gwen and loved her. But then it was his altered state of the Goblin that wanted to kill her, to completely destroy the Norman side, and to torture Peter in the process.
It still hurts seeing a beloved character like Gwen, with impactful death, to have her name run in the ground by another writer. On top of that, even Gwens ' reasons' for sleeping with Norman are some of the most clunkiest dialogue I've ever read that STILL makes no sense. Your right, after One More day, This is easily the WORST Spidey stories...with others joining the list!
@@beastedninja3757 unfortunately she was bangin' Norman before she died. Luckily its been retconned but many of us still have nasty taste in our mouths. So you can read the regular Amazing Spiderman story( ok 616 universe) but just know some stories may contradict each other.
Yeah but that reference actually worked because it added to make it more understandable for Peter to throw Norman Osborn out of the ship leaving him to die, basically breaking his moral code. Yeah, it was creepy but it serves its purpose.
This story is awful. Who had the bright idea of making Gwen sleep with the same man that kills her? And even having weird aging children that are already adults. Thank god this story was completely retconned (thanks Mysterio) and we can all forget this ever existed. Now, erase One More Day
Legitimately makes me sick to know they let this go thru how it did, it's beyond weird in any context you think about and completely ruins Gwen as a character by showing that she will sleep with someone twice her age behind peters back because she feels bad for him, and the way they draw Norman's face during it makes me wanna puke
Knowing how Sins Past was SUPPOSED to be makes both it and one more day even more irritating as it would have been an interesting development with potentially long lasting consequences for the character we may even grapple with today.
I'm back here after finding out this entire story was retconned so now it was just an AI version of Harry and Mysterio pulling a prank on everyone... This partially sums up why I don't read comics or indulge in other story mediums that are ment to last forever with no ending in sight. Also, reply to this comment when this retcon inevitably gets reconed somehow because comics.
The true Sins Past are letting Joey Q. having anything to do with Spider-Man's character. Sure, events like the Clone Saga sucked, but they didn't really create lasting damage (on the contrary, they led to fairly well liked characters in the form of the two Scarlet Spiders). Sins Past and One More Day though? God Damn, what a record.
I have such conflicting feelings about the JMS run. On the one hand, it was his and Michelinie's runs that introduced me to the character in the comics. It's easily a personal favorite, but Sins Past is one of the most egregious stories in modern Spider-Man comics, second only to One More Day (well-written story, and I don't blame JMS, more accurately Quesada, but that story just came from the absolhte wring place that harmed the characters with absolutely no real consequences until Nick Spencer's current story arc well over a decade later). I could forgive and forget Sins Past, all of it, if they only had the restraint not to show us Stormin' Norman's O-face...
My pfp is the reaction to this story. (Great video btw if you would ever feel like it, I'd love if you make a vid on spider-man blue it's my favorite spider-man story of all time )
I'm reading through the JMS run and I skipped this story like a stone. Qiesada was hard up on the whole aging Peter thing. If Sara and Gabriel ended up being Peter's then that would make an amazing start to some sort of spider family. They would have been able to bring back his secret daughter from the end of the Clone Saga
comic drake mentioned this briefly in "all Spiderman's girlfriends" and man is it seriously messed. Side note - in terms of romantic relationships, it's just like the characters in general (both Marvel and DC) aren't allowed to have stable, long lasting relationships.
I don't understand this mindset writers have that they can make a classic story well liked somehow better by retconning it. I can't think of any examples where it turned out well; so why do comic writers keep doing it?
Just discovered this channel and practically binged so much of your videos. With Fantastic Four being announced for the MCU, will you be doing a video on Jonathan Hickman's run?
I actively read monthly during this run and was completely blown away with this story. It was both horrifying and fascinating at the same time. We can read it from beginning to end today but at the time the monthly wait was a complete rollercoaster. Lots of great discussion came from it. Idk. Love it or hate it, I enjoyed it for what it was and the good times it produced.
This is honestly too much. It’s so out of character of Gwen Stacy to do that. The death was supposed to be impactful and heartbreaking to show that there are consequences and that comics weren’t playing games anymore. How the f*ck do you ruin a simple powerful moment written about 4 decades ago?! I would’ve been fine with it if it was Peter’s kids that were manipulated by Norman Osborn but this is honestly nuts..
1:00 "One of the most polarizing"? For something to be polarizing someone has to like it. But who like Sin Past (other than Marvel's editor at the time)?
Some say Gwen Stacy's death marked the death of the Silver Age. In the case of Sins Past, it marked the beginning of the Dark Age for Spidey across the board for the next 14 years: Comics: this, Civil War, OMD, The Slott Follies Film: the triumvirate of Spider-Man 3 and the TASM duology Animation: canceling of Spectacular and the reviled Marvel TV entries like Ultimate Spider-Man Stage: Turn off the Dark. Need I say more?
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Which spiderman comics should i read could you please recommend it
Owen, I’m here to announce that with the release of Nick Spencer’s Amazing Spider-Man #73, Sins Past has officially retconned this story from existence
@@sheilamartinez4307 it’s true,
It was a trick from Harry Osborn, is he used mysterio to make Norman believe that
Sarah and Gabriel are just testtube clones
This feels like the kind of story idea you’d make up if you were drunk, high and having a bet with your friends over who could come up with the worst comic book idea possible.
I've actually made a habit out of writing a Spider-man story when really really drunk, it's actually not too bad.
Uhm if I was high, which I an now, could write a better story. Joe Quesdilla is killing Spiderman.
Dan Slott was doing that for 10 years, this is why we don't talk about Parker Industries
@@midjet156productions I’d like to hear that story please
Then when your drunk again and come up with an idea to retcon the worst comic book idea that’s somehow even more nonsensical and convoluted than the original idea.
Joe Quesada's obsession with not letting Peter grow up and become an adult or develop as a character and keeping him as a permanent teenager to use him as a self insert because that's what Quesada wants to be is annoying.
Pretty much.
Quesada's basically the kind of writer who lets his enthusiasm for a character take charge in a story, rather than simply, you know, telling a good story!
@@alexdawson4571 Exactly.
Writers like Quesada are the reason character development and consistency are criticized in comics, great writers (like Jason Aaron) take the existing lore and build up upon to create their own fresh take in their run.
Yeah that Spider-Man logic for Hollywood
One thing I like about adaptations and non canon comic stories from both marvel and DC, is that they actually let the characters grow and develop. Unlike the actual continuity in both universes.
@@Wildduckpro And adaptations actually have the guts to permanently kill off important characters. The comics don't.
Never forget; Marvel considered Gwen cheating on Peter with NORMAN OSBORN more acceptable than having Peter being a father (or God forbid, have concrete confirmation Peter is not a virgin).
And this mentality hasnt change after all these years, they will never, ever, let Peter grow up, which pretty much makes the character incredible boring for anyone who tries to follow his comic books for more than a few years.
Before OMD he got Marry Jane Pregnant during the second clone Saga so Peter is not a virgin! But I am pretty sure OMD retconned that and made Peter a virgina again
This is one of the things that I enjoy about modern superman (even if some of the comics aren’t too good). He does grow up because of things like how he’s dad now, both of his very old parents have died, and how him not physically aging makes sense because of him being kryptonion on a planet with a yellow sun.
It would have even more acceptable if Gwen cheating on Peter with some ABC(unintentional sex between ABC and Gwen) instead of Norman Osborn. Why on Earth they decided Norman Osborn?
If Gwen had unintentional sex with ABC and with Gwen taking responsibility of them and realising his mistake and they could give a proper convincing reasoning behind this, it would have been much better storyline.
If Peter grows up it is the end of the spiderman comics. They need this to go on for years, So a status quo has to be maintained. That is why Batman can never settle down, or any mainstream hero's wedding cannot be permanent,
In the MC2 timeline Peter and Mary Jane had a kid, so definitely not a virgin in that timeline
Sins past was actually the first Spider-Man comic I ever read. If it weren’t for the movies, I would’ve avoided Spider-Man like the plague forever.
My first Spider-Man comic I remember reading for sure is 129...
Was my first read as well. As a six year old, I found it facisanting
Just curious, any Spider-Man runs you enjoyed at all?
The first comic I read was the Spider-Man and Fantastic Four team up comic
My first comic was new ways to die
Looking back at this, I would be WAY MORE accepting of this story if Gabriel and Sarah were Parker's kids, would it be great, probably not, but I wouldn't have a moaning Gwen, with Tommy Lee Jones Norman snd grinning Goblin burned into my mind.
After i heard about this story i stopped reading Spider-man for months, this just so dumb.
@@christianw.3488 If you think thats bad, wait till you reach One More Day...
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 Oh i read that quagmire and threw it in a dumpster and lit it fire deadass no cap
@@christianw.3488 Have you read anything since?
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 this was all years ago ive forguven myself for reading both of those stories.
The thing that went wrong is that the storyline was allowed to see print in the first place. Even if the story hadn’t been changed by editorial, JMS should have known what a grenade this was.
Editorial is *why* it happened in the first place. JMS wanted those kids to be Peter's kids originally (which is only a little better)
@@NamaTheNerd Either way, this storyline didn’t need to exist at all. The only thing it did was give peter one more thing to hate Norman for
Worst part is, this wouldnt be the last time Quesada would screw JMS over...
You are right. A horrible...,horrible storyline.
@@NamaTheNerd no it isn't, as a fans have overwhelming preferred MJ since her introduction to Gwen. If they kept the original idea, it would be them deciding let’s kill Peter and MJ's kid, but we'll let Gwen have kids with Peter. It would have been a slap in the face to the fans and destroyed beautifully written reconciliation between Peter and Mj.
The one thing that has turned me off to reading Spider-man comics over the years has been the editor’s incessant urge to trap Peter Parker in time, preventing him from ever aging or developing into a better, wiser person. When I was a kid, the idea of reading a comic series that spans over fifty years of continuity was fascinating to me. There’s no way a movie or tv show would go on long enough to show its protagonist graduate high school, go through college, have a career, get married, have a family, and keep getting better at being a superhero all over one long narrative. But then I found out how hard they tried to reverse Peter’s character development and it just made the whole thing seem stupid. No one is satisfied when stories undo all the progress they’ve made. Peter ought to be a father of two by now. With a beard and a badass armored suit that he designed himself. Instead he’s back to living in apartments and going on dates with MJ to the bowling alley ffs. How could they have been so short sighted?
The more irritating thing is that it also means that there's no reason for multiple versions of one character. There's no passing of the torch and the continuity gets jumbled. It's a good thing that a universe with a sliding timescale does exist and can be expanded on.
I understand them trying to slow his growth, but it's like not one meaningful step forward has been made in, like, 25 years of real time. That's ridiculous.
In short: EVERYTHING!
And even more somehow
⬆️⬆️This ⬆️⬆️
@@arjunjupally9674 ⬆️⬆️Not to mention This ⬆️⬆️
I'm legitimately surprised Marvel hasn't retconned this story out already; specially since Gwen has become more popular in the last couple of years
Well to be fair it's Spider-Gwen who's popular default Gwen is still eh
After OMD, some things happenes, and some didnt...
JMS wanted to do that with one more day and he didn’t want to write that story
@noodle Yeah I noticed that too, when they're on the ship in ASM #850 and he references the storyline. The funny thing is, it actually works well, because it provides Peter for more motivation for his big decision at the end of the issue, so I'd say that reference was ok.
@noodle It's not a clear reference, could be anything.
Thank God this was retconned by Nick Spencer. Turns out Norman Osborn was being manipulated by Mysterio and an AI of Harry. The kids are genetic clones and not actually Norman and Gwen's children. For years I hated Gwen Stacy after reading this story until it was retconned.
For real? My gawd he's the MVP
This comment needs to be pinned. The viewers need to know!
@@majorastorm he was.
What a gay way to retcon
@@abdullayaser700
How about retconning it into a vividly intense fever dream induced by bad pizza that’s been sitting out of Spider-Man’s fridge for too long?
Update: We did it. We finally retconned Sins Past. At the high price of the most convoluted plan ever.
How it was retconned? What happened?
@@rhadamanthys649 Sarah and gabe are clones of gwen and Harry. Norman's and mj's memories are the result of manipulation from mysterio and an A.I.
@@silentnight6810 That's stupid but Sins Past itself was stupid, so I guess we're fighting fire with fire.
@@rhadamanthys649 I’m my head canon Sins Past was erased from the timeline when Mephisto reset Peter’s marriage.
@@rhadamanthys649 it’s “comic books logic”. You fight stupid with stupid lol
3:29 And that's exactly the difference between J. Stranzyski and Joe Quesada; one wanted to further build-up an iconic character who existed for decades and the other selfishly wanted to halt all his character development so he be just like how he remembers him to be.
One thing that bothers me the most about this decision is that Peter isn't allowed to age, but Gwen is. Like... I dunno, it makes no goddamn sense to me. Also, I see no problem with characters growing up; in fact, I love when they do, instead of being stuck in time. And the whole affair Gwen had with Norman also doesn't make sense to me. I really don't like to consider the existence of this story, to be honest.
Such a great video that Spider-Man ain't the only one shootin webs right now, ifyaknowwhatImean.
thanks, i hate it.
God fuckign damn it
Matt please you're scaring the kids
Norman slipping Gwen his Goblin Formula.
@@Xehanort10 st0P
I think this story was an attempt to make Gwen a bit more flawed because she got treated too much like a perfect saint after her death. You can be an innocent and good person without being flawless. But there's a difference between flawed and out of character which is what she was here.
I think Spider-Gwen handles this much better in Sins Rising or some other Last Remains prologue by telling Peter that whoever his version of Gwen was, he was over glorifying her, cuz whatever she was, she wasn't a saint.
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 Just sounds like the writer telling fans to get over Gwen and using (not) gwen as a mouth piece
It makes me sad that the same writer who is responsable for my favorite run on any spider-man title also had something to do with the one story that gives one more day a run for it's money as the worst spidey story ever.
Well Joe Quesada is the one that created the idea of the affair. Then he did One More Day as well. I was not surprised at all when I found out that Joe Quesada was the one that came up with the idea of it. I had previously just thought it was Editorial, but honestly, considering Quesada was the creator of OMD, I guess it makes sense.
Whoever disliked this video didn't want to be reminded of this story
Honestly I don't blame them.
Peter be lookin mad bruh like "finding out your girlfriend slept with your greatest foe then have babies in secret and killed shortly after by said foe" kind of angry boi
I kinda wonder what Dr. Miles Warran (Jackal) would react he if found out Gwen had an affair with Norman. On a related side note: What is it with Gwen Stacy pairing up with creepy old men?!
Thanks for that haunting revelation
Creepy old green monster men.
This, OMD and the Clone saga are the worst sins of Spiderman story.
Slott's run minus Superior Spider-Man sucks as well.
His run was not that bad. The first half anyway. The second half (except going down swinging) was a mess. Just my opinion. Plesse do not bite my head off
@@Noname-ut1ye Christos Gage was the ghost writer of Superior Spider-Man, that's why it was good, he literally saved it from Slott's mediocrity
The Clone Saga was horrid at the time, but at least it added Ben Reiley and Kaine to canon and didn't really assassinate any existing characters. Sins Past and OMD on the other hand...
@@aidanklobuchar1798 the clone saga almost ended up with around 149-410 having Spider-Man be a clone and ben Reilly the real peter which is why it became convoluted as a test was done revealing that which was retconned with the test being swapped
Thank God, Nick Spencer finally retconned this bs. Norman and Gwen never slept together, she was never attracted by his animal magnetism. Mysterio used hypnotic suggestion to mark Norman believe he slept with Gwen, Mendel Stromm created clones of Harry and Gwen that were Gabe and Sarah, made to believe they were the children of Peter and hunt him down. Mysterio implanted the memories in MJ's mind.
Equally stupid, but I guess here you kinda need two wrongs to make a right.
@@JBRewind yep
@@JBRewind weirdest part is that it wasn't Mysterio's idea, it was an alternate version of Harry.
Dear god, comics are convoluted
@@leolizard3152 yep
Remember, it’s Joe Quesada’s fault.
It seems that most of the time when the JMS run on Spider-Man comes up in conversation, people like to bring up One More Day as the worst disaster to come out of it, and I'm always like "Uhhhh, have you read Sins Past?" Really interesting to learn about the series of unfortunate events that led to its creation.
OMD was worse than Sins Past. Sins Past, we can use continuity and pretend it never happened. One More Day is impossible to pretend it never happened, because it changed and reset the entire life of Spider-Man. Everything we read nowadays is because of One More Day.
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 at least OMD made the newer stories possible
Sins Past however, is unsalvageable and best forgoten
@@knightgallade8431 Yeah but none of the stories in the 102 issues of One More Day were good (except Rage of the Rhino which could’ve been fine without it!). Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Island, and Go Down Swinging all could’ve been done without One More Day.
One of the biggest problems with One More Dy is thag it lead to 100 issues of unreadable trash.
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 I'm currently reading after one more day, they're decent
But I believe that Sins past is the worst of the big 3
@@knightgallade8431 To each their own. I think One More Day is the worst cuz Sins Past we all forget about but One More Day altered the Spider-Man continuity completely.
The problem with the stories after One More Day is... they just aren't Spider-Man. Its some 10 year old making non-humorous jokes fighting forgettable villains. It gets slightly better when they bring back the classic villains, but even then its meh and we have to deal with hat awful Kraven family.
This story was at the start of my downward spiral with respecting Marvel's editing staff for having common sense. I want to say that after they ruled out the kids being Peter's, they also ruled out Norman assaulting Gwen, so we ended up with Gwen willfully sleeping with Norman, which was the worst possible version of that story. And they tossed in MJ keeping secrets from Peter on top of that. Mind you, their entire thing was not wanting Peter to seem old, and not wanting to write a married Peter because "it's too hard." Yet they came up with all of this.
In my head canon Sins Past never happened.
You're speaking for everyone.
Same
It never did or could've. Because its said to happen between Issue 91 and 98, while Gwen is in London. But Norman Osborn is in New York the entire time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention that it's stated to happen while Peter is on assignment in Canada, which happened right before Gwen's death and during a time where Gwen was in New York.
@@OverlyPositiveFanboy I'm confused when it happened. I've heard this thing about it being Canada when he was fighting the Hulk. But then I also think the main story said it was when she was in London several months after her fathers death but it wasn't several months it was a few weeks), and then Marvel says it was in ASM #61.
Nobody hates Spider-Man more then Marvel editorial.
I’m not even a Spider-Man fan and even I find this story to be incredibly awful.
They really should have allowed Gab and Sara be Peter's children. Even this is much better than Gwen having an affair with GOBLIN for Christ's sake because of his "charisma" or whatever
oh hello padoru
And dont forget; two people in their early 20s having a non-sexual relationship...LOL.
@@latviandragon2718 it's December, no wonder I'm here)
@@Jose-se9pu yeah... is it just me or Marvel is painting Peter as a saint? He's too kind, has such a strong sense of guilt and responsibility, doesn't drink or smoke and... he doesn't even have sex before marriage?!
Don’t forget the dark reign storyline
"Let the Sins Past die, kill it if you have too!" - under the right circumstances, spoken by a guy with wisdom.
The Spider-Man secret police is gonna be angry when they find this
We don't talk about Sins Past
I think it would have worked pretty well if they were Peter's kids. The series is structured interestingly in the beginning with a letter of the dead Gwen, but once it's revealed that they are Norman's kids it becomes dumb
And the amount of character development and storylines Peter would've received If Gabriel and Sarah were his kids would've been astronomic!
if you think about this one thing that Spider-Man has in common with Superman both of them have been screwed over by writers that don't want to deal with writing around a certain dynamic, in Spider-Man's case it was his marriage because Roger Stern didn't want to write about a married spiderman, so he chose to leave Marvel for a Time, when he came back to write Spider-Man in 2007 I'm guessing part of the deal was marvel would wipe away the marriage, and if you look at DC the same thing happened to Superman Bendis did not want have to write around the family dynamic so he ruins it, he also turns around and does nothing that messed up Spider-Man which was revealing his secret identity.
Actually it wasn't Roger Stern. The whole thing with Spider man was because of Joe Quesada and Marvel editor who wanted do get rid of the marrige because they felt it made Peter look to older and took him away from his status quo establish by his creators, Stan lee and Jack Kirby, as teenager who the reader was able to relate.
@@alexandrefrauches132 speaking of Roger Stern he should do a video on the hobgoblin saga and under siege
@@srstriker6420 And also "the kid who collects spider-man", one the best stories written by Stern and in my opinion the best spider man story of all.
@@alexandrefrauches132 that too
Wait wtf?????? Where are you getting your facts from? Roger Stern's run was back in the 80's and it's one of the greatest runs ever. Stern wrote Spider-Man before he was married. He is also the one that brought back Mary Jane and started building up her and Peter after Marv Wolfman got rid of her cuz he didn't want to write those stories. Stern left Spider-Man in 1985 to write Avengers, leaving a legacy of great stories like Nothing Can Stop The Juggernaut, The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man, and the creation of the Hobgoblin, one of Spider-Man's greatest villains. He handed it over to DeFalco, who continued his good work. Peter and MJ were married in 1987 written by David Michelinie at the beginning of his run in ASM Annual #21. Stern had nothing to do with any of this. Spider-Man was screwed over by Quesada, who didn't want to write about a married Spider-Man, and thought everybody felt the same way, which was not true cuz Straczynski wrote a bunch of amazing stories with a married Spider-Man and sales were as high as ever, so Quesada decided to write One More Day. I don't know how you think Roger Stern fits in, because he only returned to write The Hobgoblin Lives Miniseries to fix the Hobgoblin mess, and Something Can Stop The Juggernaut, which was during the Gauntlet era in 2011.
There was a recent TASM comic in Nick Spencer’s run that has 616 Goblin meet Spider-Gwen. Let’s just say that he said some stuff that provoked both Peter and Gwen. It somewhat implies Sin’s Past, but it also can just be that Norman was just trying to provoke Peter since he liked how he made Peter suffer with Gwen’s death and Sin’s Past didn’t really happy.
Comic name please?
@@majorastormNick Spencer’s Spider-Man run. Which actually revealed in the end that Sins Past didn’t happen and it was a fabrication that Harry Osborn created before his death during his time as the Goblin to fuck with Peter and Norman. They were clones of Norman and Gwen that Kindred (who was Harry) used to for his own gain (the clones are now dead in the comics).
great video! I was horrified by this comic when it came out and disgusted by how Gwen was treated. never re-con a classic!
I’m currently writing a pretty long essay as a final and this video is comforting because I know that no matter what I turn in, it won’t be as bad as Sins Past.. then again your video on the arc is well written and that’s something I know I can’t do lol
You've got this, Eduardo!
@@OwenLikesComics thank you!
Why did Marvel try so hard to ruin Spider-Man in early 2000s?
First ruining the legacy of Gwen Stacy.
Next the useless "Other" storyline which killed Peter off only to revive in next issue and give him mystical powers no one liked and they retconned out of canon in Brand New Day.
And then they unmasked Spider-Man, which of course turned Aunt May and MJ into targets.
Worst happened later when May was dying and Marvel instead of letting May die (this time for good), they rebooted whole universe only because Marvel was afraid of letting Peter stay as married grown up man and wanted him to become an annoying man-child.
And then Dan Slott took over and any hope of Spider-Man comic books getting better went to hell.
Thank God for Nick Spencer amd his run on Amazing Spider-Man for last 2 years. I'm finally really enjoy reading Spider-Man comics.
Yeah me too. Last Remains is the first big storyline I'm enjoying in a while. If not for COVID, we'd probs already be in the Fallout of Kindred. The Last Remains plot thread is going to go on till ASM #60 in February, even though the story ends in 2 weeks. The only thing I dont like is that Spider-Man won't get to be in King in Black, cuz he's dealing with the biggest story since One More Day itself.
i refuse to accept this story as canon
Everyone does. Dan Slott clearly stated that no writer wanted to reference that.
@@federicoliguori2698 good
I refuse to accept that this story exist in the first place
It’s not. Retcon happened.
oh boy mysterio really pranked Osborn that time
Wait, isn’t this the one where Peter gives Gwen cancer through his uh, radioactive...ya know? Super excited for the video btw.
No thats reign and it was mary jane, this one is about gwen sleeping with Norman Osborne.
@@Karls_Clips Oh fuck, that reopened a lot of unwanted memories.
"Is he strong? Listen bud he has radioactive blood..."
Everything
Wow 105 likes thanks guys I needed that today
Was not expecting that thanks owen
It’s time to pay Marko
I like deodato's art
@@shinigamiking8908 shouldn’t have edited that comment, it glitches and takes the heart/pin
Green Goblin: I'm Spider-Man most terrifying enemy.
Joe Quesada: Bitch please
I know it's been retconned but I've been reading these older chapters where Gwen was still alive and I can't believe that someone who read these stories could write something like this. Gwen's a good kid that adored Peter and wanted nothing more than to be with him, she doesn't even interact with Norman and even if she did, the thought of Gwen cheating on Peter with Osborn genuinenly makes me sick...
Also, where would be timeframe have been for the cheating? These older issues show a lot of Gwen's daily life, girl couldn't have had time for another man
So I was about 5, a really big spider-man fan, and my dad bought me a spider-man comic book. It was Sins past. I was very excited to read it, but when I finished it, I was, let's say, confused...
Marvel is finally Retconing Sins Past in Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man (read Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #73)
Amazing video Owen!
Sins past has always been interesting to me, this and One More Day, as much as I’m not a fan of the actual story, I do feel in both instances Straczynski manages to write them really well, like the dialogue and stuff, and it’s just the general concepts I don’t like. It just a,ways amazes me how I’m able to enjoy reading the actual issues even though I hate what happens in them.
Honestly, they should reintroduce Gabe, then just have a story arc where he tries to kill spiderman, then learns he is the son of Norman and some random woman. As for Mary Jane saying she overheard a conversation, just have her say "oh well, I guess I misheard them."
There's a better way. Make it that Norman Osborn wanted clones of himself and so used the Jackal's tech and facilities that he had during the clone saga to make a male and female clone similar to himself. Since the Jackal was obsessed with Gwen and made a million clones of her, the default template for the female Clone structure was Gwen, which led to Sarah looking like her, and then he implanted the memories that Peter was their father and abandoned them and that Spider-Man killed Gwen and that Norman had raised them. So then they go after Spider-Man for revenge and the same storyline happens. Norman gets a handwriting expert to copy Gwen's handwriting and forge a letter, sending it to Peter, then kidnaps MJ, implants memories of the conversation that she overheard of Gwen and Norman, and removing any memories of Osborn kidnapping her, and putting it in her memory that she's been hiding it from Peter this whole time. He does this secretly while Peter is off on his hunt with the two assassins. This would also fixed the issue of MJ hiding this from Peter all those years, because in reality, she was made to believe that because Osborn had just implanted that memory in her. As for the DNA test, well, Osborn has a history of faking DNA tests. In Sins Past, the twins knew that Peter would go to the DNA facility, so Osborn probably knew too, and he could've had people watching any test site in New York and alert him so he could manipulate the tests. The only thing left is that Gabe and Sarah thought they were aging fast because of Spider-Man's blood, and then the story says that it was actually because of Osborn's blood. Well that memory could've just been implanted, along with the rest of their memories of rapidly growing up, and Osborn would implant these ideas in order to 1. Make the kids hate Spider-man for giving them an early death and 2. Convince them to take the Goblin formula as a cure to the aging (which in the original storyline, Gabe does). There, Sins Past retconned.
Can't wait to hear your thoughts on it but to answer the question of the title?
The fact the marvel writers thought it was ok to make gwen stacy absolutely fine with sleeping with Norman Osborne, her and peter during this time were dating.
So who allowed this idea to get off the ground? Who thought it was a good idea.
This represents everything wrong with Joe Casada and current Marvel.
You spelt his name wrong, it’s spelt Joe Crap.
@@jasperswarp Oh, thanks, I meant Joe Quesada. The man should be kept away from Spider-Man.
New fan uh where do i start in comics
@@beastedninja3757 Start with Ultimate Spider-Man.
They retconned it! FUCKING FINALLY!!!!!!!!!
Creepy Tommy Lee Cornrows showing us his “oooo” face is something I never wanna see again
Why the hell did JMS think this was a good idea to put into the main line amazing Spider-Man comic
The original idea was that they were Peter’s kids and Norman secretly kidnapped, experimented and raised them to kill Spider-Man. Joe Quesada forced JMS to change the story. He did the same thing with forcing JMS to write One More Day, apparently, which is why the last issue of that story wasn’t written by JMS, but by Quesada.
@@rodney2x48 Joe quesada oh boy. Now it all makes sense. Haven't heard that name since one more day
JMS tries to make Peter an actual adult for a change, him being a parent was the most logical thing to do.
JMS came with an interesting idea that could have been fleshed out more but then Quesada ruined it
@@Jose-se9pu yep definitely why his run is probably the best run on ASM
Sat down after a busy morning, got my nice plate of food. Seen the update of your video. Played it as i ate and it was one of the most relaxing lunches ive had. Perfect story telling. Thank YOU
I don't know how you managed to eat while watching this. More power to you!
Thanks for bringing back all the memories of reading this as it came out
10:28 Of course, another Spider-Man story mucked up by Quesada
Easy way to undo Sins Past. Make it that Norman Osborn wanted clones of himself and so used the Jackal's tech and facilities that he had during the clone saga to make a male and female clone similar to himself. Since the Jackal was obsessed with Gwen and made a million clones of her, the default template for the female Clone structure was Gwen, which led to Sarah looking like her, and then he implanted the memories that Peter was their father and abandoned them and that Spider-Man killed Gwen and that Norman had raised them. So then they go after Spider-Man for revenge and the same storyline happens. Norman gets a handwriting expert to copy Gwen's handwriting and forge a letter, sending it to Peter, then kidnaps MJ, implants memories of the conversation that she overheard of Gwen and Norman, and removing any memories of Osborn kidnapping her, and putting it in her memory that she's been hiding it from Peter this whole time. He does this secretly while Peter is off on his hunt with the two assassins. This would also fixed the issue of MJ hiding this from Peter all those years, because in reality, she was made to believe that because Osborn had just implanted that memory in her. As for the DNA test, well, Osborn has a history of faking DNA tests. In Sins Past, the twins knew that Peter would go to the DNA facility, so Osborn probably knew too, and he could've had people watching any test site in New York and alert him so he could manipulate the tests. The only thing left is that Gabe and Sarah thought they were aging fast because of Spider-Man's blood, and then the story says that it was actually because of Osborn's blood. Well that memory could've just been implanted, along with the rest of their memories of rapidly growing up, and Osborn would implant these ideas in order to 1. Make the kids hate Spider-man for giving them an early death and 2. Convince them to take the Goblin formula as a cure to the aging (which in the original storyline, Gabe does). There, Sins Past retconned.
Even as a kid, this story felt like a bad fanfiction to me.
I only have one issue from this saga, and as I recall it was the one where MJ told Peter the truth about Norman and Gwen, which grossed me out 🤮. I chose then and now to deny that Gwen would ever let that vile man touch her.
slott retconned it in 2016, but spencer made it canon again
Thank God Nick Spencer just retconned this whole mess.
Well thank spencer this story is finally retconned
Thankfully this isn't canon anymore
@Joker Yeah but the affair between Gwen and Norman never happened, which is really the point of the story.
It could have been better if Norman (the human being) was truly infatuated with Gwen and loved her. But then it was his altered state of the Goblin that wanted to kill her, to completely destroy the Norman side, and to torture Peter in the process.
It still hurts seeing a beloved character like Gwen, with impactful death, to have her name run in the ground by another writer. On top of that, even Gwens ' reasons' for sleeping with Norman are some of the most clunkiest dialogue I've ever read that STILL makes no sense. Your right, after One More day, This is easily the WORST Spidey stories...with others joining the list!
Wait so was gwens death ruined afterwards or was her death originally like right before she died she was banging norman
Cause if she wasnt banging norman from the start and originally than what comic series should i read or start off from
@@beastedninja3757 unfortunately she was bangin' Norman before she died. Luckily its been retconned but many of us still have nasty taste in our mouths. So you can read the regular Amazing Spiderman story( ok 616 universe) but just know some stories may contradict each other.
great video man on sins past :)
The real question is, "what went right?" and the answer is, "nothing"
Marvelous and well put together!! Worth the wait.
And it’s been retconned now
Fantastic video
Will you be looking at one more day eventually?
Ugh. Maybe.
Another great one!
Thanks!
Read Issue 73 of the current Amazing Spider-man series....
At least it's retconned now
Worst part is that Nick Spencer made us remember sins past in his recent Spider-Man comics
Yeah but that reference actually worked because it added to make it more understandable for Peter to throw Norman Osborn out of the ship leaving him to die, basically breaking his moral code. Yeah, it was creepy but it serves its purpose.
He also made it to have never happened.
Thank God this was retconned
Thankfully, all of this was recently retconned
This story is awful. Who had the bright idea of making Gwen sleep with the same man that kills her? And even having weird aging children that are already adults. Thank god this story was completely retconned (thanks Mysterio) and we can all forget this ever existed. Now, erase One More Day
Legitimately makes me sick to know they let this go thru how it did, it's beyond weird in any context you think about and completely ruins Gwen as a character by showing that she will sleep with someone twice her age behind peters back because she feels bad for him, and the way they draw Norman's face during it makes me wanna puke
Knowing how Sins Past was SUPPOSED to be makes both it and one more day even more irritating as it would have been an interesting development with potentially long lasting consequences for the character we may even grapple with today.
I'm back here after finding out this entire story was retconned so now it was just an AI version of Harry and Mysterio pulling a prank on everyone...
This partially sums up why I don't read comics or indulge in other story mediums that are ment to last forever with no ending in sight.
Also, reply to this comment when this retcon inevitably gets reconed somehow because comics.
The true Sins Past are letting Joey Q. having anything to do with Spider-Man's character. Sure, events like the Clone Saga sucked, but they didn't really create lasting damage (on the contrary, they led to fairly well liked characters in the form of the two Scarlet Spiders). Sins Past and One More Day though? God Damn, what a record.
I have such conflicting feelings about the JMS run. On the one hand, it was his and Michelinie's runs that introduced me to the character in the comics. It's easily a personal favorite, but Sins Past is one of the most egregious stories in modern Spider-Man comics, second only to One More Day (well-written story, and I don't blame JMS, more accurately Quesada, but that story just came from the absolhte wring place that harmed the characters with absolutely no real consequences until Nick Spencer's current story arc well over a decade later). I could forgive and forget Sins Past, all of it, if they only had the restraint not to show us Stormin' Norman's O-face...
If this happened in live action so many people would be so mad that it don't make sense
Unfortunately wouldn't be the last time Marvel would NTR Spider-Man...
My pfp is the reaction to this story. (Great video btw if you would ever feel like it, I'd love if you make a vid on spider-man blue it's my favorite spider-man story of all time )
I love Spider-Man: Blue, definitely something I'll consider covering!
Mine too haha
I'm reading through the JMS run and I skipped this story like a stone.
Qiesada was hard up on the whole aging Peter thing. If Sara and Gabriel ended up being Peter's then that would make an amazing start to some sort of spider family. They would have been able to bring back his secret daughter from the end of the Clone Saga
Im reading all Spider-Man comics rn, could you be a life saver and tell me what issues to skip when I eventually get to sins pass
The fact that this was the first Spider-Man story I ever heard of
I'm sorry.
comic drake mentioned this briefly in "all Spiderman's girlfriends" and man is it seriously messed.
Side note - in terms of romantic relationships, it's just like the characters in general (both Marvel and DC) aren't allowed to have stable, long lasting relationships.
I don't understand this mindset writers have that they can make a classic story well liked somehow better by retconning it. I can't think of any examples where it turned out well; so why do comic writers keep doing it?
Because they all wanna be the next 3000 IQ big brain writer, like Snyder, Hickman, Morrison, etc.
Nice video and I really hate how they dont want Peter to grow and feel the need to ruin his life.
The fact this is still canon pisses me off.
It's been retconned
The only positive thing that can be said about Sins Past is that the art is pretty alright overall, regardless of how awful the story is.
Just discovered this channel and practically binged so much of your videos. With Fantastic Four being announced for the MCU, will you be doing a video on Jonathan Hickman's run?
It's not in my immediate plans, but if I get a chance to reread the Hickman series then I may consider it!
I actively read monthly during this run and was completely blown away with this story. It was both horrifying and fascinating at the same time. We can read it from beginning to end today but at the time the monthly wait was a complete rollercoaster. Lots of great discussion came from it. Idk. Love it or hate it, I enjoyed it for what it was and the good times it produced.
This has been retconned!
In TASM Vol 5
This is honestly too much. It’s so out of character of Gwen Stacy to do that. The death was supposed to be impactful and heartbreaking to show that there are consequences and that comics weren’t playing games anymore. How the f*ck do you ruin a simple powerful moment written about 4 decades ago?! I would’ve been fine with it if it was Peter’s kids that were manipulated by Norman Osborn but this is honestly nuts..
Man it is stuck in my mind forever moaning Gwen and grinning Osborn I just can't get it out of my head
1:00 "One of the most polarizing"? For something to be polarizing someone has to like it. But who like Sin Past (other than Marvel's editor at the time)?
The worst story of all time followed by Trouble.
JMS still had a pretty good run despite this and OMD.
Some say Gwen Stacy's death marked the death of the Silver Age. In the case of Sins Past, it marked the beginning of the Dark Age for Spidey across the board for the next 14 years:
Comics: this, Civil War, OMD, The Slott Follies
Film: the triumvirate of Spider-Man 3 and the TASM duology
Animation: canceling of Spectacular and the reviled Marvel TV entries like Ultimate Spider-Man
Stage: Turn off the Dark. Need I say more?
This story makes me irrationally angry
I’ve watched the review of this comic on Atop the 4th Wall, and Linkara tears it a new one. It’s one of my favorite reviews on that channel.