Very interesting! I’m no mechanic or engineer but your explanation makes sense! Don’t know if I trust in KTM’s response .. .5% failure rate seem to be pretty low for the amount of attention the issue got. Curious to know if they can even afford to cover for the issue when considering their finances.
I'm the second owner of a 2019 790 Adventure with only 4500 miles and am concerned like the rest of us. I spoke to the local KTM service manager in Tucson, AZ. He stated, "keep riding the bike. If it fails, KTM will take care of the problem as long as the engine is not modified." This problem has hurt KTM's reputation as they made some big mistakes early on by denying the issue. I feel KTM has worked hard getting where they are in the industry and will not want to loose market share. This will pass. KTM will learn from their mistakes and will continue making great performing motorcycles. We all make mistakes. The issue is how we respond after. Thank you for the great video.
Thx for the Video As a 24 “ 790 Adv owner, it’s good to know they”ll take care of the issue if/when it arises. Unfortunately the resale value of these bikes has completely tanked
No, the chain tensioner has no lock against pushing back when you stop the engine. So at the Next start the tensioner has to be filled up new with hot oil like water. This takes a time and hot oil has a bad noise damping. This has nothing to do with low oil pressure.
I feel a deep empathy for people that had a bike that that suffered these issues in earlier model years. I hope you'll get the issue sorted or compensated for, as KTM seems to finally be doing. I've put 15,000 miles (25,000 km) on my 23' 890R in the last year with no issues. My trip last summer alone was 10,000 miles, camping off the bike for 4 months. I've ridden over many mountain ranges and deserts with her in the US and the bike has been amazing! Death Valley, jeep roads over the Rockies in Colorado, Baja Mexico and everything in between. I can't imagine having a bike as capable as this for the terrain that i've put it through. This is my first KTM. I had japanese bikes for the last 42 years. I know that there have been issues that KTM is finally addressing after much frustration. I just felt the need to add my voice that my bike has been mind blowingly amazing and that they are not all swiss cheese cams waiting to strand you somewhere, There have been a lot of loud voices, and maybe for good reason, considering their dissatisfaction from KTM's response to the very real issues with earlier models. But I hope that they will get past this issue as the bike is so uniquely capable of being such a great all round world traveler. As a side note: I brought my bike to Solid Performance in PA which does the suspension work on Chris Birch's bike. They did a valve adjustment and inspection on my bike at 13,000 miles, partly because I became concerned about camshaft wear read about on the forums. I was told the top end was in perfect condition and the valves were all nearly in spec. Bonus, thye serviced my Wp suspension and dialed it in for my riding style and weight. I ride this bike hard and often get her wet over my boots doing water crossings. I treat her good and do good maintenance to keep her happy. This is the best off road/tour the country/take a trip down to mexico on dirt roads/do it all motorcycle I've ever owned. Whatever you ride, get out and do it more often. It's easy to couch surf. Turn off the tube and get out there. Life is for the living...
Sorry for all the spelling mistakes, for some reason I cannot see my text on utube while typing. What I meant about extending oil life is I think the reason KTM add these filters is to prolong oil change intervals making it more appealing as an adventure bike for long distance riders. If removing the screens increases oil pressure I am happy to change oil more often (I always do anyway). What made me think of this is this is the only bike I have ever owned with oil screens except for my Husky 510 supermoto which I should have kept forever as a once in a while rider. I miss that bike! Anyway my point is why does any engine need so much filtration and how can it not reduce oil pressure. Those screens look very constrictive. Really, really hoping you will run this test. Thank you so much for your time and work producing this video. In conclusion I will say that I love this KTM so much that I will continue to change cams if necessary. But also, if KTM would produce a redisigned "HIGH OUTPUT" bolt in engine for this chassis, I would buy it! Get to work KTM! We deserve it.
You are dead on. Great analysis. My 2019 Adventure with 12,000 miles is being repaired right now. I agree 100% with you. It's a low oil supply problem.
Pretty sure it is mis-drilled oil galleries that meet perpendicularly at 90-degree angles. The vertical one is drilled vertically to intersect with the end of the horizontally drilled one. The tooling was out of spec and the two drilled passages didn't communicate 100% of their diameter, some were like only maybe 10%. They have a new part number for the new head. The design is fine, it was a tooling problem. SO, they didn't want to do a recall to pull the heads for inspection, they chose to wait for failures and fix them as they came in. They did a silent update to a new head part number, so 1) they didn't acknowledge that there is a problem, and 2) they didn't publish that they have a fix. This isn't hard, it is really this simple.
And yet there are already 2024 having failures, just crazy ignorance on KTM part. Hope my 2020 doesn’t fail but I’m going to open her up prematurely to inspect.
Good write, very plausible. This is actually also the case on early model Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG's from the W204 generation which resulted in camshaft problems
Smaller oil jet should produces a HIGHER pressure, so the oil squirts out, not dribbles out- it's not supposed to fill up gallery and then get onto the cams. You want it squirt onto where the cams\ tappet meet (looking at the jet angle). You may think that cams and stuff should swim in a bath of oil- they don't, that's bad for other reasons too long to go into. Even the gearbox isn't submerged in oil when running.
Just picked mine up today. (2020 790 adv r).Brought it in for valve adjustment (18000kms) and there was some cam wear. Bike was running well, no real issues I could tell. Cam and rockers replaced. Ktm honoured the cost. Did my own oil changes. Runs great now. Smoother than before.
@@teresad7174 correct!!! And that’s ktms plan, they just keeping replacing cam’s because it will be way cheaper than re designing the engine to actually fix the problem
Thanks for your information, it was almost clear that it was a lack of lubrication, just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it won't happen to us. I have a 2019 Duke 790 with 16,000 km, which is 'still' not giving problems, and since it is sweating from the head gasket, I'm going to take the opportunity to say look at the cams. It will be in a few weeks and I will try to be there to see them... I hope your information is true and if they are wrong, that Ktm will cover it. Greetings and thanks for everything. (From Madrid, Spain)
I've said this elsewhere but this is not goodwill it is damage limitation, Ktm sales in the uk dropped 37% for 2024, not surprising when you consider that the buying public lost faith in the product. Even if the number of affected customers is below 1% then you can't just cast those people aside and not expect a backlash. If Ktm looked after the customers and properly supported the dealers who have to do the warrenty work this would barely be a story. It will be interesting to see how many of those with historic failures get paid out.
I’m one of the 1% and massively unimpressed with KTM. My 2,950 mile 2022 890 Adventure is in surgery now. It had a starting issue being on one cylinder only for a few moments. A top end inspection revealed the damage but only because I insisted on that. Whether it’s the cause of the starting issue or not remains to be to be seen.
Have you seen the video of the British engineer who was in the process of cutting a cross section of the engine to prove his theory? The oil galleries are drilled incorrectly, the vertical does not meet the horizontals correctly so there is a total lack of lubrication as there is not enough oil at the camshaft, the galleries cannot be drilled out as the tolerance is too close to the side of the engine casing,really bad design. A pump re design will not fix this fault, the galleries are mis aligned and the oil cannot flow properly.
The snag with a "total lack of lubrication" is that the system will crash and burn on day one. There clearly isn't a total lack of lubrication. 🙂 Proper oil flow can be assured with a proper pump 🙂
There was also an engineer who commented on that saying cross drilling like that is standard procedure on lots of compact engines because there's simply not enough room to have them meet normally, however he went into further detail saying that if the nozzles were installed too deep it would choke the oil flow and that's likely the issue. Although it wasn't checked in the video that does sound like a reasonable conclusion because if it was solely the cross drilling that caused the issue every bike would have wear like that, however if it's a manufacturer defect where in certain engines the nozzles are too deep it would make far more sense as to why some die in the first 10k km and some run completely fine after over 50k
Hello Sir, excellent video. I have a thought on this. You mentioned the oil filter screens, is it likely that these are reducing oil pressure? I would be interested to seee you run an oil pressure test with the screens removed. I think it would definitely increase oil pressure at low rpm's. My fgear is that removing them is it could posssibly cause oil pressure to go to high at high rpm's. Wouls appreciate your thboughts on this. Thanmks again.
@@stonodo that’s a great idea. We should try that. Honestly since the overall pressure is to low, I don’t see the issue of running into to much pressure. Thanks for watching!!!
Was just thinking of what your were maybe saying. If our book says our bikes must run at this PSI and it doesn't, that's another reason to keep taking it back to the shop
Excellent work Florian, you nailed it right to the point. Quality control costs mega-bucks and using the public as Guinee-pigs and leaving them out in the cold is pretty disgusting from KTM. There are owners who were out of pocket and eventually gave up with these Made in China motorcycles. During the time we faced problems with an internally wrecked engine, KTM wasn’t even interested in ANY form of compensation because we were only 1 f*cking month outside the warranty. We were lucky to have sourced an engine in Italy (at our own costs) from a crashed 790 Duke. There are more people out there like ourselves who will never EVER let go of this until some form of compensation has been paid.
I had two of those KTMs. The 790´s engine blew apart and the 890´s brakes and other shite were nagging on me nerves. Trust´s gone! Bought a Honda instead and KNOW that I won´t have any of these lack-of-QC problems will occur.
@@chiboreache I really like KTM for many things like powder coated frames and rims, often neat finish and light weight. But on the other side you have to put up with a lot of technical issues which shouldn´t occur nowadays. A friend bought a new 690 Enduro and has also various technical issues. And we´re NOT talking cheap bikes here. Pricewise, we´re talking "premium" bikes and KTM should deliver quality accordingly.
@@anchinkan euro5 690 is kind a rubbish too, you need standalone ecu and decat, to make this thing not stall every mass market bike *NOT READY TO RACE* remember it!
Spot on - swiss cheese. BUT the most fundamental problem is the low spec oil pump. Manufacturers generally over spec their oil pumps. A lot. Why? Because it's a smart way to compensate for all the other random things in play. Dynamic (running) oil pressure is variable within different engines due to running clearances, temperature, engine wear, oil viscosity, contamination, engine speed. A big pump sorts this out, the downside being cost and HP loss. It's very easy to fit a high pressure high volume oil pump - you "tame" any excess pressure with a relief valve. High performance engines made by Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha etc do this. So regardless of the "fixes" the elephant in the room remains - the puny oil pump.
The only scrapped engine that has had a failure analysis made public - see the Dirty Garage guy video - turned out to be misaligned drilling for the oil feed channels. Not cheese camshafts, not a pump issue or (as internet "experts" have claimed) an undersized diameter. Essentially it seems KTMs design wasn't so much the problem as the manufacturing. I don't know who has been contracted to do the machining of the LC8c engines (because I doubt KTM will do it in house), but it looks like someone messed up. KTMs response has been exceptionally poor and they certainly deserve the customer backlash.
@@pauln6803 The "swiss cheese" model is generally applied to aviation accidents - it has nothing to do with the camshafts. In fact I don't believe that there is anything wrong with the camshafts. The holes in the "jets" that spray oil onto the lobes are likely the same size as the misalligned drillings. Most shortcomings in the oil distribution system will be overcome by a pump that produces satisfactory pressure/flow characteristics over the range of engine speeds. One point mentioned in the video was that the group who didn't have issues were those who hammered the engine - high rpm. If this is true then it's obviously the pump. It's not able to deliver sufficient pressure/flow at low speeds. 🙂
@@pauln6803 the oil sensor sits where the oil pressure gauge gets connected to sits before the miss alignment, and still only half the pressure gets up there than what it’s supposed to have. Yes the miss aligned drilling of the feed is one problem, but that doesn’t explain the low overall oil pressure. ( your friendly “ internet expert “ ☺️)
So the problem is not limited to 'intense riding'. Whether ridden hard or ridden easy is irrelevant if the cam is oil-starved. Cam wear is inevitable once the engine reaches ~10,000 miles. Good video.
I own a 2020 KTM 790 Adv R. I have a theory on the Cam problem. The valve shim clearances seem to close very quickly. I checked my valve shim clearances at 10,000 kilometres/6Mi , some of them were in mid spec tolerance . (They had already started to close from the factory specification of: Inlet 0.15/ Exhaust 0.20) I think they have a valve seat regression problem. I re checked the shims at 16K/9Mi , I had to adjust 4 shims. I re checked shims at 24K/14Mi , I had to adjust another 2 shims. If the valve shim clearances get to zero, the followers will run constantly on the cams, The cam lobes and followers get too hot and then you have this issue. If you then add an oil pressure issue the problem would be far worse. Im at just under 30K now. Im going to check my oil pressure next valve shim inspection. If I had not checked my valve shim clearances until 24K/15Mi I believe I would have got to zero valve shim clearance with some of the valves and have the same problem. IMO the valve clearance's should be checked at 15k/9Mi and again at 25k/15Mi. (But its a costly job if you have to pay someone to do it for you) I did this myself. I only ride off road. (Lots of dirt) I change my oil every 7,000 Kilometres Air filter cleaned after every ride. My Cams are fine. I have not had a problem with them so far. I will re-check my clearance's at 35Klm 🙂🛠 I did see a FB post where someone swapped over the oil pump pressure spring for a KTM 1290 SAS oil pump spring Part Number 61438026000 and it did raise the oil pressure considerably.
I thought the same, till I pulled my cams on my 23 890R, the followers were all worn and the clearance in 6 were in tolerance. 2 of the lobes were eaten and the tolerance were closed. The engine had 18k kms, more than enough oil changes amd was very well looked after.
Thanks very much for your video. It could be that you are on the right track. My KTM dealer said to me (at least a month ago) that the problem was down to low oil pressure. He said it was set low for emissions. I don't believe that high oil pressure can cause significantly more emissions. I don't know if this information came from KTM, or if the dealership came to this conclusion themselves.
Thanks for the video. You did not mention that your oil pressure regulator spring is OEM, I assume it is. What if you change it to the '3,5 Bar' one and do the pressure test again? Meaning it allows more oil volume in the oil circuit for the same setup/engine tested. Curious of the result. Some changed it for good measure but a video would be nice to see the real pressure increase at idle and 6-7000 rpm.✌🏻
@@Mr.Bearded.Mechanic I have seen some results with the upgraded spring, bad sadly nowhere close to the oil pressure it should bring. Thanks for watching!!!
I was interested in this 790/890 model from the beginning but didn't have enough money to buy it cash. I don't like to finance my motorcycles. I looked at the new Chinese 790 Duke last year and thought that I could probably afford one this year. Then I heard about the soft cam problems. I found a 650 Versys locally with less than 3000 miles and got that instead. It's a little boring but I know it will last a long time and be no trouble. I put a Leo Vince full system on it so I could hear the motor and a taller windscreen. It's not fast but it's fun to wring it out on the back roads around here. KTM lost a lot of owner good will on this screw up. They are severely damaged now. Both in their reputation and their profit outlook. Their management needs a shakeup. Heads should roll.
@@FMC-20244 i have faced a similar design flaw on a car engine, sure 10x more kilometers. I have machined placed a tube on the oil return passage on the head to increase the oil capacity in rocker area to assure sufficient lubrication. And drilled a tiny hole on the bottom of this extension tube for the oil to return completely to crank case when the engine is not running, like over night. This way you can completely drain old oil if you are patient enough. One negativity is that i had to put about a liter of more oil (4 to 5 lt) to keep the crank case oil level on a running engine since the active oil volume in the head . This was for an iron block iron head 2 liter engine.i don't know the geometry of this head but maybe this can help.
The current fix is to replace camsafts that have failed. Certainly appears that the issue is delivery of lubrication to the cams. So if that situation continues, cams will fail again. I had a mercedes that ate a cam lobe. The cause was the plastic nozzle that directs oil to that lobe had been damaged. Maybe a better oil delivery mechanism or higher volume of oil to the existing nozzle is needed for the cam lobe.
I live in Sweden and i have never heard of any bike at all that has had this problem here. The prizes have dropped a bit on the used market but the bikes are being sold and many have 30000-50000 km without problems.
The KTM v-twin engines have finger-followers but do not have this issue. Also the suzuki GSX 1000 and the BMW GS has finger-followers . I don't think it is a faulty design, it was just not implemented correctly in the KTM's parallel twins.
I think your right Honda recalled fixed there original vf 750 sabre and 750 f cam wear I read where drilled oil feed though some say was not true fault anyway burnt them so had over engineer there next model vfr 750 which have legendary reliability .I think external oil feed pipes and redesigned oil pump instead this silly oil screen
There are several other videos of LC8c cranking that shoot the oil properly. I suspect Joe Allen’s bike has a large piece of debris in the oil passage or a very weak oil control spring. I’m not convinced riding hard helps as 20psi at idle is enough for 1400 rpm. 35psi at 6k RPM is less oil per revolution and would result in more wear due to heat and shear. The Jet is the restriction point as the hole in the jet is much smaller than the main feed line. The upper screen has enough surface area I don’t think it’s and issue either. It is simply a bandaid to keep metal or manufacturing swarf from clogging a jet above. I’m not saying your argument isn’t valid, rather I’m not sure they are the real problem.
@@donnyjackson1908 that’s just my view as I work on motorcycles every day plus I talked to lots of people that ride hard and have 0 wear. And I also show the manual stating the oil pressure that bikes should have and absolutely no one gets these type of pressures. Thanks for watching!!!
Well, how do you suppose to know yourself when you have a camshaft problem? At the 30000 km valve check? Can already been way too late without you noticing something and the debris passing in the engine. Those engines make so much mechanical noise, even new, that you can’t tell if there’s something wrong with the camshaft’s and I hear a lot off people having damage without noticing something. Mine is sold after 42000 km and my warranty was gone, just like my confidence. A shame, I know, because it’s a great bike to ride .
Interesting you talk about oil pumps. I don't know what make pumps are fitted to current ktm's ? But they used to use EATON pumps and, in some cases, ran two oil pumps. Also just a thought, but has anyone checked the pressure relief valve? I know from experience. some loss of oil pressure can be the fault of the pressure relief valve. Anyway, just observations. Great video and very well explained.
@@jimbob67 don’t know about the oil pump manufacturer, some people experiment with the oil relive spring, it gets a little better but now where it should be. Thanks for watching!!!
Add to the layers of issues, that those camshafts are covered with a thin layer of chrome molibden , this layer eventually will decompose creating sediment and get stuck in the filter due to heat from poor lubrication.
With my 2019 adv, the service was done as recommended. Oil changed every 5k miles after the 1st service. Valve inspection when recommended. On the second inspection the bike was runing fine. In took it in for service and inspection at about 34k miles before a planned trip, (which was canceled). Cams were both clearly damaged. After about a 10 week waite for parts, and about 1,800$, i got the bike back.
The MCM article mentions all future issues - this will be interesting to see how it does get applied to those who have had a repair (clean, polish of cams and followers replaced) and then later down the road what they do when that owner comes back.....we will need to wait and see. Sounds like they are going to take it on the chin on the LC8c and I would say the newer motors (LC8d ?????) have had the issue/s addressed. They could not just keep persevering with this process.
Good video 👍. I am of the same opinion about lubrication being the big issue. I hadn’t thought about the harder ridden bike… I assume you’ve heard that some people are pushing in a different oil pressure spring…
I'm sure I'm not tghe ffirst person to think of this. Another thought is trying run ning the engine without one ooil screen and then without both. Most bikes do not have these added screens for fioltering oil, I think they are there just to extend oil life. Again would appreciate your thoughts. Cheers!
Finger followers aren't really just for performance, and have been around for a very long time. It's probably done for packaging, pulling the cams closer together to shrink the head. My mind goes straight to putting a bigger pump in, and raising the bypass pressure. Honda had exactly this going on in the early 80's with cam oiling on the v4's.
What about the spring inside of oil pump? KTM has another one for 3.5 bar oil pressure, someone of owners in Germany has changed that spring for higher oil pressure.
That's very interesting. It's also inline with the "Low oil presure" warnings on startup that some bikes are getting. The question is: Will slightly overfilling the oil solve or diminish part of the issue?
I ride my 890R “hard-ish” off road. Rode it fast and like to hit stuff hard and feel the bike moving around just for fun. But wouldn’t say I rode it at high rpm. I’ve never enjoyed that. Rarely hit 8000rpm. Always cruised at or above 4000rpm and almost always changed gear by 7000rpm, but usually closer to 6-6500rpm. Cams were inspected (second time) at 36000km. Valves were still in spec (didn’t need adjusting at first check at 22000km either). The bike didn’t get ridden in traffic at all. Only got used for long trips a couple times a month during our short Scandinavian season.
@@jacolombard3124 yes, pretty much religiously. Have done with all my bikes for like ever. Always warm them up to full operating tempt. The exception is if I have to make a ferry and don’t have time (I live right near one that I take regularly). But we’re talking once or twice a year or so. But I’ve read if some cases where people say they warm their bikes up yet still got the camshafts failure. I think it’s all pretty random.
Great video. Not knowing much about the oil pump, does it have a pressure regulator? On cars it’s usually built in to prevent excess pressure (all hydrologic pumps should have one to prevent damage from over pressure) Does the ktm engine has such thing with the wrong pressure spring? Flow and pressure robs power but at what cost. Your thoughts?
The cure for this issue with early Suzuki air-cooled/ plain bearing crank / finger follower type valve actuator was to run the engine at 2K for the first 15 minutes on new engines ; the cams needed to be work hardened , go figure ... Taking it for a ride was generally easier . Chevrolet 350 V8 converted boat engines had similar issues with the same fix . No one ever complained so I guess it wasn't an issue , for Suzuki at least . History never repeats , or not ?
@@harrybenson9983 there have been people out there doing that and the result what a little better pressure but still no where it should be. Thanks for watching!!!
If it actually the 'Low oil pressure '. That is causing the excessive cam shafts lobe wear. Why didn't all the lobes show excessive wear? What about the cfmoto 800 nx, Mt engines. Won't they have the same low oil pressure? If someone has a cfmoto 800 maybe the can check their oil pressure for you. Nice job. Christopher
@@Will-on2gm the clip with the oil pressure gauge on it is on a warm engine. Viscosity makes a difference but not a 30 psi difference. Thanks for watching!!!
Thanks for this video. One topic was not adresser in it, it is the clutch issue (burnt clutch) which is also often considered to be caused by a lack of lubrication. Reason why some are changing the clutch oil jet for a buffer diameter. What are your take on this ?
Could a thinner oil i.e. 10W40 or even a 5W40 instead of 10W50 help increase the flow of oil and save the cams or is there a risk that the oil is too thin and only make things worse? Regarding the goodwill... KTM requires that the service shedule is correct, meaning that the bike has been serviced at the right intervals by an authorised mechanic. Otherwise you´re on your own...
Great video man. It's a pity, when you buy a bike you need to be confident with the brand and it doesn't give that impression at all. I'm currently hesitating to buy a new Norden 901. Don't know what the outcome will be yet.
The primary solution, apart from ensuring machining holes are aligned properly, is a larger displacement oil pump. Probably in the 20% ballpark. This way excess flow simply goes over the relief valve at sufficient pressure. The fact KTM has done nothing but blame external factors will come back to haunt them. Besides, motorcycles are Japanese guys.
2022 890 Adv Repair Manual shows oil pressure should be 20psi/1.4bar at idle with coolant temp at 158°F/70°C. At 6000 RPM it should be 35psi/2.4bar with coolant temp at 158°F/70°C. …quite a bit lower than what your 2019 790 manual show. Hmmm.
@@FMC-20244from the outside it looks like they originally designed it with the needed 26 to 65 psi …then after discovering what it was actually making, they change the repair manual to match the inadequate lower numbers. But it’s too late, the 2019 manual was printed and shows to true required pressure. My 2022 has 5000 miles and is already showing signs of premature cam wear upon start up. …Uggg! I’m going to put a plug-in oil pan heater pad to heat up the oil before I start it from here on out. I’m also going to run a Scott’s stainless steel super fine mesh oil filter since it offers almost zero restricted flow through filter housing and will hopefully allow a bit more pressure to reach the cams. We’ll see if that works.
@@jaskroo that is exactly my thought, with all the stuff they have pulled lately I would not be surprised. Hope the filter works out for you, keep us posted!!!
Mechanic 51 years ..... The oil pressure reading needs to be taken from the oil filter housing. The place next to the injector only needs to operate a pressure switch. Limiting valves (check them out in Plumbing) are used in different parts of the Engine to save things like the Cam Chain Tensioner that would otherwise destroy the Cam Chain Guide. Who know the criteria for pressure in that area operating just an on off switch. The 950 LC8 I have has an #AN fitting on the front of the filter housing. From what I have seen you must have a special oil filter housing cover/lid with an #AN fitting, or modify yours if possible, with a Dash whatever fitting to match your tool. If you need to know I will check my LC8 fitting for the #number. It's in the manual a picture of the #AN fitted cover plate. I have seen it OK :)
I would suggest that the oil pressure reading needs to be taken from a point in the system that is furtherest away from the pump. That way you get to measure the real dynamic pressure :-)
@@leebrand2172 Then why use the workshop manual for the criteria. There is no criteria for this point in the motor and what pressure did the engineers design for the oil pressure switch. What has that got to do with the pressure at oil jet pointed at the cam. The diameter of the drilled oil line determines the pressure just like a jet determines the amount of fuel. The only test that matters is the oil pressure, at operating temperature, at the oil pump which has the pickup on the oil filter housing. You then check that the oil pressure matches the criteria set in the workshop manual. Otherwise you are just making it up as you go to match whatever tangent your on.
@@iceclimb1897 The little jet is an indication of how well the KTM engineers met their design objectives. Specifically that little jet furtherest from the pump. They all need to spray oil. Not dribble but spray it onto the lobes. This from idle speed to red line. Three key factors with the pump - pressure (at discharge), volume (Q) and rotational speed. The rotational speed of the pump tends to have a direct relationship with output pressure and oil volume within its design range but this does not apply at very low speeds or very high speeds. In other words they have a "sweet spot" where they work best. As for pressure relief. Absolutely. I have never worked on an engine with multiple pressure relief valves however. Does KTM do this? Most sensible engines I've worked on use one. At the oil pump delivery. Because the design has to cater for a wide range of factors your pump is going to be able to produce way more pressure than it needs to. Until someone can show me a video of that little pump happily spraying (cold) oil onto the lobes at idle speed, my prime suspect remains the pump. 😜
Awesome insights and common sense. now i have mine replaced (exhaust) under good will as it was borderline etc. but what about the rest of the wear on the motor components due to lack of oil pressures??
I am a woman rider who just bought a 2024 KTM 790 Adventure in March of this year. There are common issues that I have experienced; I have an oil leak at the crankshaft and a coolant leak at the thermostat housing. Because these recurring issues have not been fixed at the manufacturing/engineering side, I am not confident that the Camshaft issue has been resolved. - I have a two year warranty. If I decide to keep it, I realize that I will need to ride it hard and long! And then bring it back to the dealer if I have further issues under my 2 year warranty.
@@aimeemotorides8454 what it looks like from the outside, some cooling or oil channels might be different. i would have to see an old an new engine side by side. But I can day that the old one sounded like someone had thrown some screws into it and the new one sounds much smoother...long term usage will show
Very interesting. My 890R Duke is noisy with only 5900km. Dealer told me today that "only 5% bikes are affected" to which I said BS!! Question: I run my bike on 10W60 full synthetic Motul. Should this "thicker" oil not up the oil pressure somewhat?
Just looked up the oil pressure specification for the 2019 790 Adventure and the 2024 890 Adventure. The oil pressure should be at a minimum of 1,4 Bar (20 psi) at idle and 2,4 bar (35 psi) at 6000 rpm's. Thats from the latest repair manuals from KTM.
@@FMC-20244 Yea i think they changed it. Didn't wan't to say it but i work at a KTM dealer in Switzerland. So i have acces to the newest repair manuals. Also the oil pump in the new 990 Duke engine is totally different to the oil pump in the 790/890 engines. Take a look in the spare parts finder. And before someone asks. I'm a KTM tech since 2014. Since the introduction of the 790's, until now we've only had one 790 Adventure with bad camshafts. This was a guy from France riding through Switzerland. We have many customers with well over 30'000km on their 790/890's. One guy with a 790 Duke from 2018 now has nearly 85'000km without a mechanical issue. For me, the small electronic issues get me the ick working on them. At least it's always the same problems more or less. So most of the times i exactly know what the problem is.
Hi, I owne an KTM Adv 2021, and looked in the manual for Oil Pump Specs and haven´t found Them. I woonder why that is? My disconfort with this bike just got biger.
OK Low oil pressure 😮 and new oil pump gearing needed from a 3rd party.. . In my experience 🤔 this has been the mo of KTM For at least 10 years. when I bought my 1190R in 2013 they denied overheating of the rear caliper and blamed me for user error. when I attended the 2015 KTM rally, I photographed all of the rear calipers of all of the 1190 and 1290s (including top Aussie dirt riders) and 90% of the V bikes had blued and overheated rear calipers/discs. so imo it's their strategy to always deny and never improve any component and never update it once they've made it and decided internally it's ok. From your comments all our 790cc/890cc bikes will prematurely fail from lack of oil pressure. Has anybody measured CFMoto 800 for oil pressure?
Same thing with original 1190R starter motors. Too low RPM. They said user battery issue. If you went in and really complained hard about the starter and mentioned other owners had it replaced free with 1290 starter - then boom - they silently replaced it free. No recall.
Oil is present and lubricating when turning over the engine.That is a check that all shops do,or should do at any 4 stroke any ocasion the camcover is off. Oil pressure has nothing to do with oil flow. Also if you want to be acurate,also mention that oil presuure sensor on ktm 790 amd 890 is at the top of the head, almost at the end of oil circuit.The minimum oil pressure spec by manufacturer is measured(on 790 and 890) at the sensor location. So compare apple with apple.
Even more interesting (or confusing) is another guy on RUclips who had to get his fixed at about 12K miles for this issue, at about 12K miles after the repair with new parts, he went in and checked the cams and they looked perfect with zero noticeable wear. Sooo... what changed with the new parts to provide proper lubrication now?
@@drrider1658 it’s still hard to say exactly, some say the added oil screen could be it, also ktm went it and made the finger follower wider, so more contact to the cam, that wouldn’t fix a oil delivery issue but would slow down the wear. Time will tell. Thanks for watching!!!
There are certain fundamentals that need to be addressed. Oil flow is needed to make pressure so there’s an issue with the pump’s flow rate. Putting screens in line suggests a debris issue but if the case there are other problems that the oil filtration system is missing. As you say, added screens reduce oil flow. The nozzles’ low flow at cranking speed isn’t a measure of that at running speed and most engines have the same issue when starting from cold. A few rotations have oil feeds established. I’m not convinced by anything I’ve heard from KTM.
Oil pumps are positive displacement systems meaning flow is directly proportional to rpm. Bypass flow out of that positive displacement systems is regulated by the pressure relief spring. The fact that oil pressure tests show oil pressure to remain roughly in the 20-30psi range across a LARGE rpm range tells me that the root cause of low pressure is not pump displacement capacity rather too low a spring rate and crack pressure of the oil pressure relief circuit. For what it's worth, I am an engineer that has designed and tested oil pressure relief systems before. I own a 2019 790 and have installed the earlier model higher base pressure relief spring based on these grounds. 13k miles and cams looking great 🤞
@@zinser642 I’m an engineer too and pondered a similar thought. It would seem bizarre that the pressure relief valve is the actual issue. The 790 engines exposed the first cam issues. What spring are you using? My 890 is awaiting a new head and cams after less than 3,000 miles. Supposedly the later design which cures the issue.
Ktm position is useless….as you pointed out the problem is not 100% solved. Moreover they want full traceable history of service (just to force you bringing the bike to them forever) and I’m sure they will find any excuse to avoid paying
@@enricobononi8655 for now they say they will goodwill further cam repairs, of course they are trying to win some customers back. Hopefully they keep they word. Thanks for watching!!!
Yes, I agree with you but what car manufacturer out there forces you to use their service department? None. As long as you’re doing the proper maintenance with the proper products and intervals warranties should be covered.
I’m in Australia . I checked with the local dealer and they said my 790r is fully covered parts and warranty should the cam fail regardless if I change it myself. I was literally holding a container of oil I was Buying from them at the time whilst having the conversation.
@@Papparratzi I can’t say for sure, but the fact that the pre 23 models where still made in Europe, very likely they had cats for ever. Thanks for watching!!!
The manual of the 890 Duke doesn't contain any data for oil pressure. Only mentions that there are two trochoid pumps. Are there two pumps in the 790 models too?
Bought a 1290 sas 2023 , never going to buy KTM ever again, abs pump issue causing panic brake randomly, started to have coolant lost 250ml in 4 days and counting , paint peeling everywhere on the clutch bracket and reservoir , battery drain issue , between 50-80km the steering will wobble uncontrollably , if you let go and will also go right instead of straight. KTM dealer said everything was "normal" . F them , i traded it and never looking back , lost thousands but that was better then keeping it. Dangerous bike. Believe everything you see in forums about KTM , it’s not exaggerated. Extremely unreliable!
Ram 5.7 Hemi has “lifter failures” aka the Hemi tick. This has been an issue with these for over a decade. Knowledgable techs have dove into this problem and is strongly suspected to be an oil pressure issue at idle. Fleet trucks with high idle hours have the most failures. Not one thing has been done to rectify the problem by the manufacturer. Long before current Stellantis financial issues btw. Chevrolet is having similar problems with lifter failures with their Silverado V8s. Now Toyota has admitted to a transmission problem on the new Tacoma (I have a screenshot of the media release). They will only replace after proof of failure and must display one or more of failure codes to qualify. No recalls on any of the above failures because they are not considered “safety related”. Far more money was spent on these trucks than the 790/890/901 motorcycles so to think a motorcycle manufacturer is going to issue a recall is unrealistic. Vehicle manufacturers wont even! These bikes are an incredible machine and we spends hundreds to thousands on “mods” typically so just ride the hell out of the bike and “mod (replace)” the cam when needed and ride the hell out of it more!
@@TeamStruggleBunny fingers crossed 🤞 it stays that way!! Absolutely it will be worldwide, at this point the news is out and it came from ktm headquarters’s. Thanks for watching!!!
I too have a book 2023 norden 901 and it states different. 20 psi at idle and 35psi at 6000 rpm. Same bike bike I think they have thought of this all ready
@@FMC-20244 thanks for answering my question, and thank you very very much for keeping on this subject. I think we still need to apply maximum pressure to this company that takes our hard earned money for a known faulty product .
‘Ready to Race’ is KTM’s slogan , so they can never blame riding styles , that together with low oil pressure conflicting with their own workshop manual figure is the slam-dunk in any class-action lawsuits against them Rubbish Chinese parallel twins slowly killing KTM .. and yet they still hide like baby’s.
Get BMW gs1200 I have and it's p pretty great bike feels relatively light for its weight handles like dream and is sporty. Feels lighter than my Africa twin DCT 👍🏿
@@Angry-Lynx hehe.. I have ridden the gs off road and its a great bike but not for agreesive riding and that kind of stuff. The paralever and telelever are so great and comfort that is extremely bad on the dirt. Gives you no feedback at all. So when you are about to fall , you are already falling... 19 front wheel.. no.. but its a great bike for other things. Thanx friend ride safe
@@mike_mikeff after reading of failing cams on gses I changed my mind Africa twin DCT is the best adv bike so far even though suspension kinda sux but still sux less in off-road than GS with ESA. One last bike for me to try is tuareg. After it I'll be able to define the best adv bike. So far it's AT. I heard vtrom 800de have soft suspension so that can be good bike too, but its such budget bike but priced same as AT which now have not only Dct but even electronic suspension....
IMO, ktm has had "issues" with oil pressure. remember the lc4 eating cam lobes and followers, not a big deal, just replace them often was what was said.. on the race side of things... 10w-60 or 20w-50 with a thickener was added. i knew of no one that ran their bikes multiple seasons that wasn't using 60+ weight oil. the 890 engine is a hot one just like the old 950 v twin... the oil thins out too much when hot and too thin on start up ( think HD bikes and spec 20w-50+).. i doubt it is too thick for "flow" . i would be interesting to see, common weight oil tested for psi and flow.. i.e 10-40 though 10w-60
@@davezuber521 wasn’t talking about the 690s in particular, that motor was a result of the 600,620,640 and the lubricating issue those motors had, as far as you saying the rocker arm assembly failing, sorta the same thing on the lc8 motor cam and rocker arms(followers) failing. I know one mainly Is mechanical the later is most likely lubrication, but ktm has a history with valve train issues in most of there four strokes, the early 530s with dual chamber oil, (lc4s with dual filters and external lines). the idea behind that was cleaner non transmission sheared oil lubricates the valve train better. (Happened to not be enough for longevity). Performance is derived from high compression and head work to control that compression, resulting in very high oil temperatures and a consequence is shearing. Hot oil doesn’t pump well, ktm has had decades of issues with this. 10w60 spect often in their bikes for this reason.
@@johnthero2517 by the time this video was done there was no indication yet of the possible bankruptcy. But I’ll address that matter in a coming video soon. Thank for watching
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
The arrogance of KTM calling it a goodwill gesture 😂. It's a recall issue but they still don't want to admit it
Excellent point.
Very interesting! I’m no mechanic or engineer but your explanation makes sense!
Don’t know if I trust in KTM’s response .. .5% failure rate seem to be pretty low for the amount of attention the issue got. Curious to know if they can even afford to cover for the issue when considering their finances.
One of the best insights on this issue. Cheers!
Owner of a 2020 790 R, close to 10k miles, so far no issues, but no confidence.
@@sharanvn thank you so much!!! Fingers crossed 🤞 you won’t have issues!!! Thanks for watching!!!
I'm the second owner of a 2019 790 Adventure with only 4500 miles and am concerned like the rest of us. I spoke to the local KTM service manager in Tucson, AZ. He stated, "keep riding the bike. If it fails, KTM will take care of the problem as long as the engine is not modified."
This problem has hurt KTM's reputation as they made some big mistakes early on by denying the issue. I feel KTM has worked hard getting where they are in the industry and will not want to loose market share. This will pass. KTM will learn from their mistakes and will continue making great performing motorcycles. We all make mistakes. The issue is how we respond after. Thank you for the great video.
@@jnorgie2340 thank you!!! I agree that it all comes down how they handle the issue. Thanks for watching!!!
Thx for the Video
As a 24 “ 790 Adv owner, it’s good to know they”ll take care of the issue if/when it arises. Unfortunately the resale value of these bikes has completely tanked
@@Motozstu you are right about the re sell value!!! Thanks for watching!!!
They SAY theyll do it. Somehow I'm sceptical about it
They just agreed to do my 2019 Adventure with 13 k miles on it. No hassle from them.
@@johndevito4237 that’s great news!!!
When I close my eyes and think what a KTM mechanic should look like, this guy is who I see. Thin, smart, intense, German.
@@skyecooleyartwork 😂 thanks I’ll take it!!! Thanks for watching!!!
German?
@@stefanmargraf7878 yea sir!! Thanks for watching!!!
Nice insight! It also explains why the hydraulic cam chain tensioner is noisy starting.
@@hughclagett5766 that’s correct!! Thanks for watching!!!
No, the chain tensioner has no lock against pushing back when you stop the engine. So at the Next start the tensioner has to be filled up new with hot oil like water. This takes a time and hot oil has a bad noise damping. This has nothing to do with low oil pressure.
I feel a deep empathy for people that had a bike that that suffered these issues in earlier model years. I hope you'll get the issue sorted or compensated for, as KTM seems to finally be doing.
I've put 15,000 miles (25,000 km) on my 23' 890R in the last year with no issues. My trip last summer alone was 10,000 miles, camping off the bike for 4 months. I've ridden over many mountain ranges and deserts with her in the US and the bike has been amazing! Death Valley, jeep roads over the Rockies in Colorado, Baja Mexico and everything in between. I can't imagine having a bike as capable as this for the terrain that i've put it through. This is my first KTM. I had japanese bikes for the last 42 years. I know that there have been issues that KTM is finally addressing after much frustration. I just felt the need to add my voice that my bike has been mind blowingly amazing and that they are not all swiss cheese cams waiting to strand you somewhere, There have been a lot of loud voices, and maybe for good reason, considering their dissatisfaction from KTM's response to the very real issues with earlier models. But I hope that they will get past this issue as the bike is so uniquely capable of being such a great all round world traveler.
As a side note: I brought my bike to Solid Performance in PA which does the suspension work on Chris Birch's bike. They did a valve adjustment and inspection on my bike at 13,000 miles, partly because I became concerned about camshaft wear read about on the forums. I was told the top end was in perfect condition and the valves were all nearly in spec. Bonus, thye serviced my Wp suspension and dialed it in for my riding style and weight.
I ride this bike hard and often get her wet over my boots doing water crossings. I treat her good and do good maintenance to keep her happy.
This is the best off road/tour the country/take a trip down to mexico on dirt roads/do it all motorcycle I've ever owned.
Whatever you ride, get out and do it more often. It's easy to couch surf. Turn off the tube and get out there. Life is for the living...
If you watch the video, he explains that the cams are not the issue, and engines that are ridden harder don't have the cam damage.
Sorry for all the spelling mistakes, for some reason I cannot see my text on utube while typing.
What I meant about extending oil life is I think the reason KTM add these filters is to prolong oil change intervals making it more appealing as an adventure bike for long distance riders. If removing the screens increases oil pressure I am happy to change oil more often (I always do anyway). What made me think of this is this is the only bike I have ever owned with oil screens except for my Husky 510 supermoto which I should have kept forever as a once in a while rider. I miss that bike! Anyway my point is why does any engine need so much filtration and how can it not reduce oil pressure. Those screens look very constrictive. Really, really hoping you will run this test. Thank you so much for your time and work producing this video.
In conclusion I will say that I love this KTM so much that I will continue to change cams if necessary. But also, if KTM would produce a redisigned "HIGH OUTPUT" bolt in engine for this chassis, I would buy it! Get to work KTM! We deserve it.
You are dead on. Great analysis. My 2019 Adventure with 12,000 miles is being repaired right now. I agree 100% with you. It's a low oil supply problem.
@@johndevito4237 thank you!!! And thanks for watching!!!
Pretty sure it is mis-drilled oil galleries that meet perpendicularly at 90-degree angles. The vertical one is drilled vertically to intersect with the end of the horizontally drilled one. The tooling was out of spec and the two drilled passages didn't communicate 100% of their diameter, some were like only maybe 10%. They have a new part number for the new head. The design is fine, it was a tooling problem. SO, they didn't want to do a recall to pull the heads for inspection, they chose to wait for failures and fix them as they came in. They did a silent update to a new head part number, so 1) they didn't acknowledge that there is a problem, and 2) they didn't publish that they have a fix. This isn't hard, it is really this simple.
@@msromike123 that is one of the issues for sure. Thanks for watching!!!
And yet there are already 2024 having failures, just crazy ignorance on KTM part. Hope my 2020 doesn’t fail but I’m going to open her up prematurely to inspect.
Yes, my thoughts aswell. A hole that small, doesn't need much offset to make a hugh change.
Good write, very plausible.
This is actually also the case on early model Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG's from the W204 generation which resulted in camshaft problems
@@Arman-tm1kz interesting, didn’t know that!!! Thanks for that info!!
Smaller oil jet should produces a HIGHER pressure, so the oil squirts out, not dribbles out- it's not supposed to fill up gallery and then get onto the cams. You want it squirt onto where the cams\ tappet meet (looking at the jet angle). You may think that cams and stuff should swim in a bath of oil- they don't, that's bad for other reasons too long to go into. Even the gearbox isn't submerged in oil when running.
hello! very good work of analysis,congratulations!As former airline pilot and rider this speaks to me.
@@alainrigaud7035 thank you so much!!! Thanks for watching!!
Wait for Kato to tell owners that's what Ready to Race means. Thank you mate. Great information.
@@nomojo1110 thank you mate!!! Thanks for watching!!!
Well done, very sensible and informative production.
@@gcostanza2115 thank you!! And thanks for watching!!!!
Just picked mine up today. (2020 790 adv r).Brought it in for valve adjustment (18000kms) and there was some cam wear. Bike was running well, no real issues I could tell. Cam and rockers replaced. Ktm honoured the cost. Did my own oil changes.
Runs great now. Smoother than before.
@@Bandy64 good to know. Thanks for watching!!!
Replaced the cam and rockers but didn't fix the pressure issue. It will occur again.
I whould changing oil slot sooner or even higher lower say 30-50oil I think most 20-50 or even fully sytethic oil as these design seem fragile
@@patrickmalone9380
No amount of oil changes will help if there isn't enough oil flow to the head.
@@teresad7174 correct!!! And that’s ktms plan, they just keeping replacing cam’s because it will be way cheaper than re designing the engine to actually fix the problem
Thanks for your information, it was almost clear that it was a lack of lubrication, just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it won't happen to us. I have a 2019 Duke 790 with 16,000 km, which is 'still' not giving problems, and since it is sweating from the head gasket, I'm going to take the opportunity to say look at the cams. It will be in a few weeks and I will try to be there to see them... I hope your information is true and if they are wrong, that Ktm will cover it. Greetings and thanks for everything. (From Madrid, Spain)
@@MMG6666 thank you!!! And thanks for watching!!!
I've said this elsewhere but this is not goodwill it is damage limitation, Ktm sales in the uk dropped 37% for 2024, not surprising when you consider that the buying public lost faith in the product. Even if the number of affected customers is below 1% then you can't just cast those people aside and not expect a backlash. If Ktm looked after the customers and properly supported the dealers who have to do the warrenty work this would barely be a story. It will be interesting to see how many of those with historic failures get paid out.
The reason the numbers are so low is because the ridiculously low PCP mileage limits mean most bikes haven't done enough miles yet to see the problem.
I’m one of the 1% and massively unimpressed with KTM. My 2,950 mile 2022 890 Adventure is in surgery now. It had a starting issue being on one cylinder only for a few moments. A top end inspection revealed the damage but only because I insisted on that. Whether it’s the cause of the starting issue or not remains to be to be seen.
@@megaady36 i absolutely agree, if ktm wouldn’t have pushed it off so long, no one would talk about it. Thanks for watching!!!
Have you seen the video of the British engineer who was in the process of cutting a cross section of the engine to prove his theory? The oil galleries are drilled incorrectly, the vertical does not meet the horizontals correctly so there is a total lack of lubrication as there is not enough oil at the camshaft, the galleries cannot be drilled out as the tolerance is too close to the side of the engine casing,really bad design. A pump re design will not fix this fault, the galleries are mis aligned and the oil cannot flow properly.
The snag with a "total lack of lubrication" is that the system will crash and burn on day one. There clearly isn't a total lack of lubrication. 🙂 Proper oil flow can be assured with a proper pump 🙂
There was also an engineer who commented on that saying cross drilling like that is standard procedure on lots of compact engines because there's simply not enough room to have them meet normally, however he went into further detail saying that if the nozzles were installed too deep it would choke the oil flow and that's likely the issue. Although it wasn't checked in the video that does sound like a reasonable conclusion because if it was solely the cross drilling that caused the issue every bike would have wear like that, however if it's a manufacturer defect where in certain engines the nozzles are too deep it would make far more sense as to why some die in the first 10k km and some run completely fine after over 50k
Link please
Hello Sir, excellent video. I have a thought on this. You mentioned the oil filter screens, is it likely that these are reducing oil pressure? I would be interested to seee you run an oil pressure test with the screens removed. I think it would definitely increase oil pressure at low rpm's. My fgear is that removing them is it could posssibly cause oil pressure to go to high at high rpm's. Wouls appreciate your thboughts on this. Thanmks again.
@@stonodo that’s a great idea. We should try that. Honestly since the overall pressure is to low, I don’t see the issue of running into to much pressure. Thanks for watching!!!
Was just thinking of what your were maybe saying. If our book says our bikes must run at this PSI and it doesn't, that's another reason to keep taking it back to the shop
@@scottsutton8583 agreed, thanks for watching!!!
Excellent work Florian, you nailed it right to the point.
Quality control costs mega-bucks and using the public as Guinee-pigs and leaving them out in the cold is pretty disgusting from KTM. There are owners who were out of pocket and eventually gave up with these Made in China motorcycles.
During the time we faced problems with an internally wrecked engine, KTM wasn’t even interested in ANY form of compensation because we were only 1 f*cking month outside the warranty. We were lucky to have sourced an engine in Italy (at our own costs) from a crashed 790 Duke.
There are more people out there like ourselves who will never EVER let go of this until some form of compensation has been paid.
@@SherKhan-b1kes thank you so much, and thanks for watching!!!
I had two of those KTMs. The 790´s engine blew apart and the 890´s brakes and other shite were nagging on me nerves. Trust´s gone! Bought a Honda instead and KNOW that I won´t have any of these lack-of-QC problems will occur.
just dont buy lc8c rubbish, buy 690 or 1290
@@chiboreache I really like KTM for many things like powder coated frames and rims, often neat finish and light weight. But on the other side you have to put up with a lot of technical issues which shouldn´t occur nowadays. A friend bought a new 690 Enduro and has also various technical issues. And we´re NOT talking cheap bikes here. Pricewise, we´re talking "premium" bikes and KTM should deliver quality accordingly.
@@anchinkan euro5 690 is kind a rubbish too, you need standalone ecu and decat, to make this thing not stall
every mass market bike *NOT READY TO RACE* remember it!
Spot on - swiss cheese. BUT the most fundamental problem is the low spec oil pump. Manufacturers generally over spec their oil pumps. A lot. Why? Because it's a smart way to compensate for all the other random things in play. Dynamic (running) oil pressure is variable within different engines due to running clearances, temperature, engine wear, oil viscosity, contamination, engine speed. A big pump sorts this out, the downside being cost and HP loss. It's very easy to fit a high pressure high volume oil pump - you "tame" any excess pressure with a relief valve. High performance engines made by Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha etc do this. So regardless of the "fixes" the elephant in the room remains - the puny oil pump.
@@leebrand2172 exactly my thoughts on this deal!!! Thanks for watching!!!
The only scrapped engine that has had a failure analysis made public - see the Dirty Garage guy video - turned out to be misaligned drilling for the oil feed channels.
Not cheese camshafts, not a pump issue or (as internet "experts" have claimed) an undersized diameter.
Essentially it seems KTMs design wasn't so much the problem as the manufacturing.
I don't know who has been contracted to do the machining of the LC8c engines (because I doubt KTM will do it in house), but it looks like someone messed up.
KTMs response has been exceptionally poor and they certainly deserve the customer backlash.
@@pauln6803 The "swiss cheese" model is generally applied to aviation accidents - it has nothing to do with the camshafts. In fact I don't believe that there is anything wrong with the camshafts. The holes in the "jets" that spray oil onto the lobes are likely the same size as the misalligned drillings. Most shortcomings in the oil distribution system will be overcome by a pump that produces satisfactory pressure/flow characteristics over the range of engine speeds. One point mentioned in the video was that the group who didn't have issues were those who hammered the engine - high rpm. If this is true then it's obviously the pump. It's not able to deliver sufficient pressure/flow at low speeds. 🙂
@@pauln6803 the oil sensor sits where the oil pressure gauge gets connected to sits before the miss alignment, and still only half the pressure gets up there than what it’s supposed to have. Yes the miss aligned drilling of the feed is one problem, but that doesn’t explain the low overall oil pressure. ( your friendly “ internet expert “ ☺️)
@@leebrand2172 Plenty of riders who've had cam problems are fast, intense riders, on and off road. So riding intensity is not a smoking gun.
So the problem is not limited to 'intense riding'. Whether ridden hard or ridden easy is irrelevant if the cam is oil-starved. Cam wear is inevitable once the engine reaches ~10,000 miles. Good video.
@@skyecooleyartwork the thing is tho that at higher rpm the oil pressure is higher
I own a 2020 KTM 790 Adv R. I have a theory on the Cam problem. The valve shim clearances seem to close very quickly.
I checked my valve shim clearances at 10,000 kilometres/6Mi , some of them were in mid spec tolerance . (They had already started to close from the factory specification of:
Inlet 0.15/ Exhaust 0.20)
I think they have a valve seat regression problem.
I re checked the shims at 16K/9Mi , I had to adjust 4 shims.
I re checked shims at 24K/14Mi , I had to adjust another 2 shims.
If the valve shim clearances get to zero, the followers will run constantly on the cams, The cam lobes and followers get too hot and then you have this issue. If you then add an oil pressure issue the problem would be far worse.
Im at just under 30K now.
Im going to check my oil pressure next valve shim inspection.
If I had not checked my valve shim clearances until 24K/15Mi I believe I would have got to zero valve shim clearance with some of the valves and have the same problem. IMO the valve clearance's should be checked at 15k/9Mi and again at 25k/15Mi. (But its a costly job if you have to pay someone to do it for you) I did this myself.
I only ride off road. (Lots of dirt)
I change my oil every 7,000 Kilometres
Air filter cleaned after every ride.
My Cams are fine. I have not had a problem with them so far.
I will re-check my clearance's at 35Klm 🙂🛠
I did see a FB post where someone swapped over the oil pump pressure spring for a KTM 1290 SAS oil pump spring
Part Number 61438026000 and it did raise the oil pressure considerably.
@@Matt-xf7js i like the way you think, plus you actually experienced this so this is solid info. Thanks for watching!!!
I thought the same, till I pulled my cams on my 23 890R, the followers were all worn and the clearance in 6 were in tolerance. 2 of the lobes were eaten and the tolerance were closed. The engine had 18k kms, more than enough oil changes amd was very well looked after.
I agree, this is also what a German mechanic thinks, the issue might be. Check valve clearance early!
The vave should in such a case start hitting the valve seat, don't you think? Or is it possible that the valve stem is too long?
@@MSKNeurology The valves need to close onto the valve seat in order for the engine to fire and run.
Thanks very much for your video.
It could be that you are on the right track. My KTM dealer said to me (at least a month ago) that the problem was down to low oil pressure. He said it was set low for emissions. I don't believe that high oil pressure can cause significantly more emissions.
I don't know if this information came from KTM, or if the dealership came to this conclusion themselves.
@@RedRupert64 thank you for watching!!!
Thanks for the video. You did not mention that your oil pressure regulator spring is OEM, I assume it is. What if you change it to the '3,5 Bar' one and do the pressure test again? Meaning it allows more oil volume in the oil circuit for the same setup/engine tested. Curious of the result. Some changed it for good measure but a video would be nice to see the real pressure increase at idle and 6-7000 rpm.✌🏻
@@Mr.Bearded.Mechanic I have seen some results with the upgraded spring, bad sadly nowhere close to the oil pressure it should bring. Thanks for watching!!!
I was interested in this 790/890 model from the beginning but didn't have enough money to buy it cash. I don't like to finance my motorcycles. I looked at the new Chinese 790 Duke last year and thought that I could probably afford one this year. Then I heard about the soft cam problems. I found a 650 Versys locally with less than 3000 miles and got that instead. It's a little boring but I know it will last a long time and be no trouble. I put a Leo Vince full system on it so I could hear the motor and a taller windscreen. It's not fast but it's fun to wring it out on the back roads around here. KTM lost a lot of owner good will on this screw up. They are severely damaged now. Both in their reputation and their profit outlook. Their management needs a shakeup. Heads should roll.
@@marscruz you got that right!!! Ktm messed this one up good!! Thanks for watching!!!
Great video, does the Chinese one have the same problem?
@@mk1dr770 thank you!! They are to new still to know. Thanks for watching!!!
@@FMC-20244 i have faced a similar design flaw on a car engine, sure 10x more kilometers. I have machined placed a tube on the oil return passage on the head to increase the oil capacity in rocker area to assure sufficient lubrication. And drilled a tiny hole on the bottom of this extension tube for the oil to return completely to crank case when the engine is not running, like over night. This way you can completely drain old oil if you are patient enough. One negativity is that i had to put about a liter of more oil (4 to 5 lt) to keep the crank case oil level on a running engine since the active oil volume in the head . This was for an iron block iron head 2 liter engine.i don't know the geometry of this head but maybe this can help.
@ that’s interesting, thanks for the info and thanks for watching!!!
Excellent video. Thanks for the effort. Traded my Duke 890 couple of months ago for Yamaha MT10 and love it more. Moved on and too late.
@@irf888 thank you so much!!! Appreciate it the kind words, thanks for watching!!! Enjoy that MT10
Of course you like it more it would be like upgrading from 890 to 1290
The current fix is to replace camsafts that have failed. Certainly appears that the issue is delivery of lubrication to the cams. So if that situation continues, cams will fail again.
I had a mercedes that ate a cam lobe. The cause was the plastic nozzle that directs oil to that lobe had been damaged. Maybe a better oil delivery mechanism or higher volume of oil to the existing nozzle is needed for the cam lobe.
@@kennymiller8973 agreed. Thanks for watching!!!
I live in Sweden and i have never heard of any bike at all that has had this problem here. The prizes have dropped a bit on the used market but the bikes are being sold and many have 30000-50000 km without problems.
@@Gud-y2s that’s interesting, thanks for watching!!!
I live in Bulgaria we have a many KTM and Husky bought from Austria and Germany. I havent heard of such problem yet.
Same here in Denmark. Never heard of it.
Interesting video! Some people upgrade to the 990 oil pressure spring. So this is a useful mod.
@@God.of.the.netherlands.3173 thanks for the info, thanks for watching!!!
Ohhh that’s interesting, hadn’t heard that, do you have a link? I’ll try googling that…
The KTM v-twin engines have finger-followers but do not have this issue. Also the suzuki GSX 1000 and the BMW GS has finger-followers . I don't think it is a faulty design, it was just not implemented correctly in the KTM's parallel twins.
@@etruscanadv3296 I can agree with you, it’s not a faulty design, I still prefer the shim under bucket. Thanks for watching!!!
It says, "Idle Speed", so it does tell you what RPM speed you should have those oil pressures.
@@shortattentionspangarage1312 correct, 26 at idle. But nothing else. Doesn’t say at what rpm you should see 65. Thanks for watching!!!
I think your right Honda recalled fixed there original vf 750 sabre and 750 f cam wear I read where drilled oil feed though some say was not true fault anyway burnt them so had over engineer there next model vfr 750 which have legendary reliability .I think external oil feed pipes and redesigned oil pump instead this silly oil screen
@@patrickmalone9380 that could be the fix. Thanks for watching!!!
There are several other videos of LC8c cranking that shoot the oil properly. I suspect Joe Allen’s bike has a large piece of debris in the oil passage or a very weak oil control spring. I’m not convinced riding hard helps as 20psi at idle is enough for 1400 rpm. 35psi at 6k RPM is less oil per revolution and would result in more wear due to heat and shear.
The Jet is the restriction point as the hole in the jet is much smaller than the main feed line.
The upper screen has enough surface area I don’t think it’s and issue either. It is simply a bandaid to keep metal or manufacturing swarf from clogging a jet above.
I’m not saying your argument isn’t valid, rather I’m not sure they are the real problem.
@@donnyjackson1908 that’s just my view as I work on motorcycles every day plus I talked to lots of people that ride hard and have 0 wear. And I also show the manual stating the oil pressure that bikes should have and absolutely no one gets these type of pressures. Thanks for watching!!!
Well, how do you suppose to know yourself when you have a camshaft problem? At the 30000 km valve check? Can already been way too late without you noticing something and the debris passing in the engine. Those engines make so much mechanical noise, even new, that you can’t tell if there’s something wrong with the camshaft’s and I hear a lot off people having damage without noticing something. Mine is sold after 42000 km and my warranty was gone, just like my confidence. A shame, I know, because it’s a great bike to ride .
Interesting you talk about oil pumps. I don't know what make pumps are fitted to current ktm's ? But they used to use EATON pumps and, in some cases, ran two oil pumps. Also just a thought, but has anyone checked the pressure relief valve? I know from experience. some loss of oil pressure can be the fault of the pressure relief valve. Anyway, just observations. Great video and very well explained.
@@jimbob67 don’t know about the oil pump manufacturer, some people experiment with the oil relive spring, it gets a little better but now where it should be. Thanks for watching!!!
The relief valve could be stuck in a partially open state and cut flow drastically.
Very thorough and educational...great video👍
@@maldridge7630 thank you!!! And thanks for watching!!!
Add to the layers of issues, that those camshafts are covered with a thin layer of chrome molibden , this layer eventually will decompose creating sediment and get stuck in the filter due to heat from poor lubrication.
@@julonaride thanks for watching!!!
With my 2019 adv, the service was done as recommended. Oil changed every 5k miles after the 1st service. Valve inspection when recommended. On the second inspection the bike was runing fine. In took it in for service and inspection at about 34k miles before a planned trip, (which was canceled).
Cams were both clearly damaged. After about a 10 week waite for parts, and about 1,800$, i got the bike back.
@@garyib7200 glad you back on the bike!! Thanks for watching!!!
The MCM article mentions all future issues - this will be interesting to see how it does get applied to those who have had a repair (clean, polish of cams and followers replaced) and then later down the road what they do when that owner comes back.....we will need to wait and see.
Sounds like they are going to take it on the chin on the LC8c and I would say the newer motors (LC8d ?????) have had the issue/s addressed.
They could not just keep persevering with this process.
@@mosa4688 that’s correct!! Thanks for watching!!!
"c" is for compact, not an iterative identifier.
Hopefully they’ve remedied the situation but I guess someone else wrote here their 2024 already has issues. It’s the internet so who knows.
Good video 👍. I am of the same opinion about lubrication being the big issue. I hadn’t thought about the harder ridden bike… I assume you’ve heard that some people are pushing in a different oil pressure spring…
@@jamesb1412 yes we all looking closer at the spring deal!! Thanks for watching!!!
I'm sure I'm not tghe ffirst person to think of this. Another thought is trying run ning the engine without one ooil screen and then without both. Most bikes do not have these added screens for fioltering oil, I think they are there just to extend oil life. Again would appreciate your thoughts. Cheers!
Finger followers aren't really just for performance, and have been around for a very long time. It's probably done for packaging, pulling the cams closer together to shrink the head. My mind goes straight to putting a bigger pump in, and raising the bypass pressure. Honda had exactly this going on in the early 80's with cam oiling on the v4's.
@@dylanwalker5450 you are absolutely right. At least Honda recalled all the bikes. Thanks for watching!!!
What about the spring inside of oil pump?
KTM has another one for 3.5 bar oil pressure, someone of owners in Germany has changed that spring for higher oil pressure.
That's very interesting. It's also inline with the "Low oil presure" warnings on startup that some bikes are getting. The question is: Will slightly overfilling the oil solve or diminish part of the issue?
@@5Aerim adding more oil won’t bump up the pressure. Thanks for watching!!!
I ride my 890R “hard-ish” off road. Rode it fast and like to hit stuff hard and feel the bike moving around just for fun. But wouldn’t say I rode it at high rpm. I’ve never enjoyed that. Rarely hit 8000rpm. Always cruised at or above 4000rpm and almost always changed gear by 7000rpm, but usually closer to 6-6500rpm.
Cams were inspected (second time) at 36000km. Valves were still in spec (didn’t need adjusting at first check at 22000km either).
The bike didn’t get ridden in traffic at all. Only got used for long trips a couple times a month during our short Scandinavian season.
Thanks. Do you always warm your engine by letting it idle before taking off?
@@Advcrazy thanks for the input, thanks for watching!!!
@@jacolombard3124 yes, pretty much religiously. Have done with all my bikes for like ever. Always warm them up to full operating tempt. The exception is if I have to make a ferry and don’t have time (I live right near one that I take regularly). But we’re talking once or twice a year or so.
But I’ve read if some cases where people say they warm their bikes up yet still got the camshafts failure. I think it’s all pretty random.
Great video. Not knowing much about the oil pump, does it have a pressure regulator? On cars it’s usually built in to prevent excess pressure (all hydrologic pumps should have one to prevent damage from over pressure)
Does the ktm engine has such thing with the wrong pressure spring?
Flow and pressure robs power but at what cost.
Your thoughts?
Would you have more oil pressure when the bikes up to temp using 10-40W instead of the 10-50W?
The cure for this issue with early Suzuki air-cooled/ plain bearing crank / finger follower type valve actuator was to run the engine at 2K for the first 15 minutes on new engines ; the cams needed to be work hardened , go figure ...
Taking it for a ride was generally easier .
Chevrolet 350 V8 converted boat engines had similar issues with the same fix .
No one ever complained so I guess it wasn't an issue , for Suzuki at least .
History never repeats , or not ?
This is a volume/pressure thing.
In a car, all things equal...20 weight flows double the volume as 30 weight.
Perhaps an easy fix is to install a stiffer spring in the oil control valve so that less oil dumps back to the crankcase?
@@harrybenson9983 there have been people out there doing that and the result what a little better pressure but still no where it should be. Thanks for watching!!!
The oil check valve clips the peak pressures. It does not effect flow or anything below that peak pressure
If it actually the 'Low oil pressure '. That is causing the excessive cam shafts lobe wear. Why didn't all the lobes show excessive wear? What about the cfmoto 800 nx, Mt engines. Won't they have the same low oil pressure? If someone has a cfmoto 800 maybe the can check their oil pressure for you.
Nice job.
Christopher
I’m very curious about the other 800 motors too, would love to see if they’re going to have issues.
The test is at 60 deg not cold engine. Also no-one is stating oil viscosity being used!! Which makes a big difference in presssure.
@@Will-on2gm the clip with the oil pressure gauge on it is on a warm engine. Viscosity makes a difference but not a 30 psi difference. Thanks for watching!!!
Perfectly explained. Thank you for the video!
@@antonios2846 thank you!! And thank you watching!!!
Thanks for this video. One topic was not adresser in it, it is the clutch issue (burnt clutch) which is also often considered to be caused by a lack of lubrication. Reason why some are changing the clutch oil jet for a buffer diameter. What are your take on this ?
Ready to Rebuild
@@MrDavidfuchser thanks for watching!!!
Could a thinner oil i.e. 10W40 or even a 5W40 instead of 10W50 help increase the flow of oil and save the cams or is there a risk that the oil is too thin and only make things worse?
Regarding the goodwill... KTM requires that the service shedule is correct, meaning that the bike has been serviced at the right intervals by an authorised mechanic. Otherwise you´re on your own...
Great video man. It's a pity, when you buy a bike you need to be confident with the brand and it doesn't give that impression at all. I'm currently hesitating to buy a new Norden 901. Don't know what the outcome will be yet.
@@fredperry7697 appreciate it man!!! Yes I feel your pain. Thanks for watching!!!
I just bought a R1200 GS with ESA.
Yay. Hopefully she won't break down
The primary solution, apart from ensuring machining holes are aligned properly, is a larger displacement oil pump. Probably in the 20% ballpark. This way excess flow simply goes over the relief valve at sufficient pressure. The fact KTM has done nothing but blame external factors will come back to haunt them. Besides, motorcycles are Japanese guys.
@@rafaellastracom6411 thanks for watching!!!
2022 890 Adv Repair Manual shows oil pressure should be 20psi/1.4bar at idle with coolant temp at 158°F/70°C. At 6000 RPM it should be 35psi/2.4bar with coolant temp at 158°F/70°C. …quite a bit lower than what your 2019 790 manual show. Hmmm.
@@jaskroo that’s interesting 🧐 maybe they changed the manual so there is no “ print evidence “ of the issue? Thanks for watching!!!
@@FMC-20244from the outside it looks like they originally designed it with the needed 26 to 65 psi …then after discovering what it was actually making, they change the repair manual to match the inadequate lower numbers. But it’s too late, the 2019 manual was printed and shows to true required pressure. My 2022 has 5000 miles and is already showing signs of premature cam wear upon start up. …Uggg! I’m going to put a plug-in oil pan heater pad to heat up the oil before I start it from here on out. I’m also going to run a Scott’s stainless steel super fine mesh oil filter since it offers almost zero restricted flow through filter housing and will hopefully allow a bit more pressure to reach the cams. We’ll see if that works.
@@jaskroo that is exactly my thought, with all the stuff they have pulled lately I would not be surprised. Hope the filter works out for you, keep us posted!!!
Mechanic 51 years ..... The oil pressure reading needs to be taken from the oil filter housing. The place next to the injector only needs to operate a pressure switch. Limiting valves (check them out in Plumbing) are used in different parts of the Engine to save things like the Cam Chain Tensioner that would otherwise destroy the Cam Chain Guide. Who know the criteria for pressure in that area operating just an on off switch. The 950 LC8 I have has an #AN fitting on the front of the filter housing. From what I have seen you must have a special oil filter housing cover/lid with an #AN fitting, or modify yours if possible, with a Dash whatever fitting to match your tool. If you need to know I will check my LC8 fitting for the #number. It's in the manual a picture of the #AN fitted cover plate. I have seen it OK :)
I would suggest that the oil pressure reading needs to be taken from a point in the system that is furtherest away from the pump. That way you get to measure the real dynamic pressure :-)
@@leebrand2172 Then why use the workshop manual for the criteria. There is no criteria for this point in the motor and what pressure did the engineers design for the oil pressure switch. What has that got to do with the pressure at oil jet pointed at the cam. The diameter of the drilled oil line determines the pressure just like a jet determines the amount of fuel. The only test that matters is the oil pressure, at operating temperature, at the oil pump which has the pickup on the oil filter housing. You then check that the oil pressure matches the criteria set in the workshop manual. Otherwise you are just making it up as you go to match whatever tangent your on.
@@iceclimb1897 The little jet is an indication of how well the KTM engineers met their design objectives. Specifically that little jet furtherest from the pump. They all need to spray oil. Not dribble but spray it onto the lobes. This from idle speed to red line. Three key factors with the pump - pressure (at discharge), volume (Q) and rotational speed. The rotational speed of the pump tends to have a direct relationship with output pressure and oil volume within its design range but this does not apply at very low speeds or very high speeds. In other words they have a "sweet spot" where they work best. As for pressure relief. Absolutely. I have never worked on an engine with multiple pressure relief valves however. Does KTM do this? Most sensible engines I've worked on use one. At the oil pump delivery. Because the design has to cater for a wide range of factors your pump is going to be able to produce way more pressure than it needs to. Until someone can show me a video of that little pump happily spraying (cold) oil onto the lobes at idle speed, my prime suspect remains the pump. 😜
we have lots more than that effected in UK
Awesome insights and common sense. now i have mine replaced (exhaust) under good will as it was borderline etc. but what about the rest of the wear on the motor components due to lack of oil pressures??
I am a woman rider who just bought a 2024 KTM 790 Adventure in March of this year. There are common issues that I have experienced; I have an oil leak at the crankshaft and a coolant leak at the thermostat housing. Because these recurring issues have not been fixed at the manufacturing/engineering side, I am not confident that the Camshaft issue has been resolved. - I have a two year warranty. If I decide to keep it, I realize that I will need to ride it hard and long! And then bring it back to the dealer if I have further issues under my 2 year warranty.
@@aimeemotorides8454 sadly that’s the truth. Thanks for watching
the 2024 has a slightly redesigned engine produced by cf moto, which runs much smoother than the "old engine".
@@scottyaustria do we know what did they change?
@@aimeemotorides8454 what it looks like from the outside, some cooling or oil channels might be different. i would have to see an old an new engine side by side. But I can day that the old one sounded like someone had thrown some screws into it and the new one sounds much smoother...long term usage will show
Very interesting. My 890R Duke is noisy with only 5900km. Dealer told me today that "only 5% bikes are affected" to which I said BS!! Question: I run my bike on 10W60 full synthetic Motul. Should this "thicker" oil not up the oil pressure somewhat?
Inspecting the oil pump or pumps (depending on the bike) is not a bad idea.
@@gman3725 agreed!!!
Just looked up the oil pressure specification for the 2019 790 Adventure and the 2024 890 Adventure.
The oil pressure should be at a minimum of 1,4 Bar (20 psi) at idle and 2,4 bar (35 psi) at 6000 rpm's. Thats from the latest repair manuals from KTM.
@@deeehuuund not what the manual shows that I ordered for the 2019 790. Thanks for watching!!!
@@FMC-20244 Yea i think they changed it. Didn't wan't to say it but i work at a KTM dealer in Switzerland. So i have acces to the newest repair manuals. Also the oil pump in the new 990 Duke engine is totally different to the oil pump in the 790/890 engines. Take a look in the spare parts finder. And before someone asks. I'm a KTM tech since 2014. Since the introduction of the 790's, until now we've only had one 790 Adventure with bad camshafts. This was a guy from France riding through Switzerland. We have many customers with well over 30'000km on their 790/890's. One guy with a 790 Duke from 2018 now has nearly 85'000km without a mechanical issue. For me, the small electronic issues get me the ick working on them. At least it's always the same problems more or less. So most of the times i exactly know what the problem is.
Real good job man, nice video
@@scottsutton8583 thank you and thanks for watching!!!
This is fun. Should I keep going?
Hi, I owne an KTM Adv 2021, and looked in the manual for Oil Pump Specs and haven´t found Them. I woonder why that is? My disconfort with this bike just got biger.
@@erastesiano that is very strange!!! They should state that. Do you have a shop manual or owner manual? Thanks for watching
OK Low oil pressure 😮 and new oil pump gearing needed from a 3rd party.. . In my experience 🤔 this has been the mo of KTM For at least 10 years. when I bought my 1190R in 2013 they denied overheating of the rear caliper and blamed me for user error. when I attended the 2015 KTM rally, I photographed all of the rear calipers of all of the 1190 and 1290s (including top Aussie dirt riders) and 90% of the V bikes had blued and overheated rear calipers/discs. so imo it's their strategy to always deny and never improve any component and never update it once they've made it and decided internally it's ok. From your comments all our 790cc/890cc bikes will prematurely fail from lack of oil pressure. Has anybody measured CFMoto 800 for oil pressure?
@@2Meerkats wow so they just deny everything huh? That’s crazy!!! No info yet out there about the cfmoto. Thanks for watching!!!
Same thing with original 1190R starter motors. Too low RPM. They said user battery issue. If you went in and really complained hard about the starter and mentioned other owners had it replaced free with 1290 starter - then boom - they silently replaced it free. No recall.
Oil is present and lubricating when turning over the engine.That is a check that all shops do,or should do at any 4 stroke any ocasion the camcover is off.
Oil pressure has nothing to do with oil flow.
Also if you want to be acurate,also mention that oil presuure sensor on ktm 790 amd 890 is at the top of the head, almost at the end of oil circuit.The minimum oil pressure spec by manufacturer is measured(on 790 and 890) at the sensor location.
So compare apple with apple.
@@pasbogdan and yet none of the bikes reach the oil pressure the manual states they should have 🍏 = 🍎. Thanks for watching
I also don't like the finger follower design. More moving parts; more surfaces to wear. I've heard it said that this design is more compact.
@@RedRupert64 true that. Thanks for watching!!!
KTM has the finger followers since 2006 with no issues. But, those models' squirters FLOOD each cam with oil on the first 1/2 turn of the crank!
Love ya work!
@@shanestrong8892 thank you!! And thanks for watching!!!
Great video! Would a different oil viscosity help?
Even more interesting (or confusing) is another guy on RUclips who had to get his fixed at about 12K miles for this issue, at about 12K miles after the repair with new parts, he went in and checked the cams and they looked perfect with zero noticeable wear. Sooo... what changed with the new parts to provide proper lubrication now?
@@drrider1658 it’s still hard to say exactly, some say the added oil screen could be it, also ktm went it and made the finger follower wider, so more contact to the cam, that wouldn’t fix a oil delivery issue but would slow down the wear. Time will tell. Thanks for watching!!!
I would say, you cannot repair a worn camshaft, you have to replace the engine. Thr debris damaged everything.
@@stefanmargraf7878 that is a big concern of many, we will see how this turns out after people getting the cams done. Thanks for watching!!!
There are certain fundamentals that need to be addressed. Oil flow is needed to make pressure so there’s an issue with the pump’s flow rate. Putting screens in line suggests a debris issue but if the case there are other problems that the oil filtration system is missing. As you say, added screens reduce oil flow. The nozzles’ low flow at cranking speed isn’t a measure of that at running speed and most engines have the same issue when starting from cold. A few rotations have oil feeds established. I’m not convinced by anything I’ve heard from KTM.
@@Rossi593 thanks for watching!!!
@@FMC-20244 An excellent video. A shame KTM didn’t take the problem head on! They’ve lost so much credibility with this.
@@Rossi593 thank you!! I agree with you!! Thanks for watching!!!
Oil pumps are positive displacement systems meaning flow is directly proportional to rpm. Bypass flow out of that positive displacement systems is regulated by the pressure relief spring. The fact that oil pressure tests show oil pressure to remain roughly in the 20-30psi range across a LARGE rpm range tells me that the root cause of low pressure is not pump displacement capacity rather too low a spring rate and crack pressure of the oil pressure relief circuit. For what it's worth, I am an engineer that has designed and tested oil pressure relief systems before. I own a 2019 790 and have installed the earlier model higher base pressure relief spring based on these grounds. 13k miles and cams looking great 🤞
@@zinser642 I’m an engineer too and pondered a similar thought. It would seem bizarre that the pressure relief valve is the actual issue. The 790 engines exposed the first cam issues. What spring are you using? My 890 is awaiting a new head and cams after less than 3,000 miles. Supposedly the later design which cures the issue.
Use correct grade oil and keep them fresh, ride over 6000 rpm at all time.👍
@@XtremeCoke thanks for watching!!!
@@FMC-20244 thanks for the great comtent!
@@XtremeCoke thank you!!! And thank you for supporting!!!
Ktm position is useless….as you pointed out the problem is not 100% solved. Moreover they want full traceable history of service (just to force you bringing the bike to them forever) and I’m sure they will find any excuse to avoid paying
@@enricobononi8655 for now they say they will goodwill further cam repairs, of course they are trying to win some customers back. Hopefully they keep they word. Thanks for watching!!!
In Europe at least they offer 20% discount on new bikes atm 😮
Yes, I agree with you but what car manufacturer out there forces you to use their service department? None. As long as you’re doing the proper maintenance with the proper products and intervals warranties should be covered.
@@SPENJERE agreed
I’m in Australia . I checked with the local dealer and they said my 790r is fully covered parts and warranty should the cam fail regardless if I change it myself. I was literally holding a container of oil I was
Buying from them at the time whilst having the conversation.
Have these bikes always had catalytic converters?
If not, did they experience this problem after they were equipped with Cats and not before?
@@Papparratzi I can’t say for sure, but the fact that the pre 23 models where still made in Europe, very likely they had cats for ever. Thanks for watching!!!
Is states at idle speed 26-65 psi.
@@busterrabbit but not engine fluctuates that much on idle. Couple psi here and there is ok. Not double. Thanks for watching
Ready to Repair
The manual of the 890 Duke doesn't contain any data for oil pressure. Only mentions that there are two trochoid pumps. Are there two pumps in the 790 models too?
@@squirrelhasnuts7368 the 790 manual only shows one pump. Thanks for watching!!!
I run my 890 nice and easy I removed my cams at 11,000 miles they looked fine.
Bought a 1290 sas 2023 , never going to buy KTM ever again, abs pump issue causing panic brake randomly, started to have coolant lost 250ml in 4 days and counting , paint peeling everywhere on the clutch bracket and reservoir , battery drain issue , between 50-80km the steering will wobble uncontrollably , if you let go and will also go right instead of straight. KTM dealer said everything was "normal" . F them , i traded it and never looking back , lost thousands but that was better then keeping it. Dangerous bike. Believe everything you see in forums about KTM , it’s not exaggerated. Extremely unreliable!
@@john7912h wow that’s crazy, everything I’ve heard was that the 1290 is THE bike to get. Thanks for that insight
@@FMC-20244GS1200/Africa twin master race :)
Ram 5.7 Hemi has “lifter failures” aka the Hemi tick. This has been an issue with these for over a decade. Knowledgable techs have dove into this problem and is strongly suspected to be an oil pressure issue at idle. Fleet trucks with high idle hours have the most failures. Not one thing has been done to rectify the problem by the manufacturer. Long before current Stellantis financial issues btw. Chevrolet is having similar problems with lifter failures with their Silverado V8s. Now Toyota has admitted to a transmission problem on the new Tacoma (I have a screenshot of the media release). They will only replace after proof of failure and must display one or more of failure codes to qualify. No recalls on any of the above failures because they are not considered “safety related”. Far more money was spent on these trucks than the 790/890/901 motorcycles so to think a motorcycle manufacturer is going to issue a recall is unrealistic. Vehicle manufacturers wont even! These bikes are an incredible machine and we spends hundreds to thousands on “mods” typically so just ride the hell out of the bike and “mod (replace)” the cam when needed and ride the hell out of it more!
I have a 2022 890, no issue as of now. I wonder if the same goodwill warranty will apply world wide?
@@TeamStruggleBunny fingers crossed 🤞 it stays that way!! Absolutely it will be worldwide, at this point the news is out and it came from ktm headquarters’s. Thanks for watching!!!
I too have a book 2023 norden 901 and it states different. 20 psi at idle and 35psi at 6000 rpm. Same bike bike I think they have thought of this all ready
@RottweilerPerformance. Maybe they will work on a performance part to address the oil pressure?
I have heard about 790s doing 70.000kms easily without problems.
I think they probably got ridden a lot harder than the average.
In your honest opinion, do you think the stronger oil pump spring would be beneficial? 2023 Norden exp owner.
@@SPENJERE we have seen minor improvements with the spring, but not the needed solution for the problem. Thanks for watching!!!
@@FMC-20244 thanks for answering my question, and thank you very very much for keeping on this subject. I think we still need to apply maximum pressure to this company that takes our hard earned money for a known faulty product .
@@SPENJERE you’re welcome!!! I totally agree!!!
@@FMC-20244hmm, any improvement is good, like how much did the pressure go up ?
@@WetFeet4 between 3 and 5 psi
I think as of Friday Nov 29th KTM has bigger problems, it is going into receivership. They have no money, so certainly no money for warranty repairs!
@@busterrabbit as said as the entire situation is, you are absolutely right. We hope that some bigger company jumps in and saves they butts.
‘Ready to Race’ is KTM’s slogan , so they can never blame riding styles ,
that together with low oil pressure conflicting
with their own workshop manual figure is the slam-dunk in any class-action lawsuits against them
Rubbish Chinese parallel twins slowly killing KTM .. and yet they still hide like baby’s.
Not made in China until only recently. So why do you call them "Chinese"?
Great video!!!!
@@kamelloak thank you!!! Thanks for watching!!!
So.. the million dollar question.. is it ok if we go now and buy the 2024 ktm 790?? Or we wilo end up with same problems?
Get BMW gs1200 I have and it's p pretty great bike feels relatively light for its weight handles like dream and is sporty.
Feels lighter than my Africa twin DCT 👍🏿
@@Angry-Lynx hehe.. I have ridden the gs off road and its a great bike but not for agreesive riding and that kind of stuff. The paralever and telelever are so great and comfort that is extremely bad on the dirt. Gives you no feedback at all. So when you are about to fall , you are already falling... 19 front wheel.. no.. but its a great bike for other things. Thanx friend ride safe
@@mike_mikeff after reading of failing cams on gses I changed my mind Africa twin DCT is the best adv bike so far even though suspension kinda sux but still sux less in off-road than GS with ESA.
One last bike for me to try is tuareg.
After it I'll be able to define the best adv bike. So far it's AT.
I heard vtrom 800de have soft suspension so that can be good bike too, but its such budget bike but priced same as AT which now have not only Dct but even electronic suspension....
I know the heat has been on the 790 but I’m curious, do you think the 1290 or any other engines KTM produces have a similar issue?
As I posted elsewhere, KTM has finger followers back to 2006 with no problems. But, all those engines FLOOD the cam at cranking speeds.
Any after market high volume oil pumps out there?
IMO, ktm has had "issues" with oil pressure. remember the lc4 eating cam lobes and followers, not a big deal, just replace them often was what was said.. on the race side of things... 10w-60 or 20w-50 with a thickener was added. i knew of no one that ran their bikes multiple seasons that wasn't using 60+ weight oil. the 890 engine is a hot one just like the old 950 v twin... the oil thins out too much when hot and too thin on start up ( think HD bikes and spec 20w-50+).. i doubt it is too thick for "flow" . i would be interesting to see, common weight oil tested for psi and flow.. i.e 10-40 though 10w-60
The LC4 rockers in the 690 did not fail from lube, it was from a poor rocker assembly problem. They just fell apart.
@@davezuber521 wasn’t talking about the 690s in particular, that motor was a result of the 600,620,640 and the lubricating issue those motors had, as far as you saying the rocker arm assembly failing, sorta the same thing on the lc8 motor cam and rocker arms(followers) failing. I know one mainly Is mechanical the later is most likely lubrication, but ktm has a history with valve train issues in most of there four strokes, the early 530s with dual chamber oil, (lc4s with dual filters and external lines). the idea behind that was cleaner non transmission sheared oil lubricates the valve train better. (Happened to not be enough for longevity). Performance is derived from high compression and head work to control that compression, resulting in very high oil temperatures and a consequence is shearing. Hot oil doesn’t pump well, ktm has had decades of issues with this. 10w60 spect often in their bikes for this reason.
ya but what happens when they go bankrupt and tank and i only have 3k miles on my 790
@@johnthero2517 by the time this video was done there was no indication yet of the possible bankruptcy. But I’ll address that matter in a coming video soon. Thank for watching