Mk 262 Cloning - pt 4 - Fine tuning AA2520 and CFE 223 loads
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2017
- We are on a quest to duplicate or clone the Mk 262 Mod 1, also known as Black Hills 5.56 77gr OTM. Today we try and finalize some loads with Hodgdon CFE 223 and Accurate 2520.
UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with RUclips content policies.
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Great series! Has to be one of the best channels on RUclips!
Fine series on duping the Mk 262..!! Run out is kinda like SD - at 100 yds, the difference is not that pronounced. But long range shooters have reported significance in less vertical stringing with SD and smaller groups with lower run out. The AMU loads precision ammo (translation low SD and low run out) for their shooters. Like you say, repeatable results is what we want to see.
PaintballNut777 - As yo note, anything that puts varying degree or position pressure along the bottom of the barrel will cause vertical stringing as the barrel harmonics are affected. Even my Savage 11VT heavy barrel had to have the free floating stock relieved as the stock would warp or bend causing contact with the barrel depending on where the front rest was...I found that keeping it about 2 inches in front of the receiver provided the best barrel harmonics allowing 1/2 MOA from the 308 - with good bullets, of course. With mediocre bullets, all bets are off... Have a great day, FC
PaintballNut777 - I've found the same with my Savage 11 VT heavy barrel - but my problem was the factory polymer stock bent so the weight caused the free float clearance to close and cause barrel contact opening up my groups...When I relieved the barrel channel more and then positioned the front rest 2" in front of the receiver, I got 1/2 MOA groups with my 308 (Sierra SMKs). If I sprung for a $500 McMillan stock, there wouldn't be those issues...Best to ya, FC
loving this series Johnny, but I love the 6.5 Grendel series too! Hope we see more soon.
Love your vids keep them coming
When you measure in microns everyday ... LOL That's a lot. It's amazing how much precision is getting into the industry now. But with that being said, the way our firearms are loaded, (ie battery of arms etc.) That alone can move and change the bullet's runout just in loading itself into the chamber. Heck pushing the round into the magazine, or temperature. It's crazy, but still glad to see people paying attention to the "little things"
I think the barrel temp is beating you up. Also, a change from one powder to another messes with your groups. The way you shoot, the SD is best info you're giving us. Thanks for the videos.
Good equipment eliminates headaches such as runout. The Hornady gauge lets you know if your other equipment and/or components are faulty.
I see Johnny’s first shot hit the dot. I get an instant rush of satisfaction knowing he’s got his scope zero’d, dialed in, and is on his way to shooting some good groups. I will not say what happens next.
(Hopefully you are working on the next "Carl" from Caddyshack, Grayman, Sheepdog Video). I like that you say "WE" in regards to your particular rifle. This testing is a good start for people to try on their own at their own risk, I try to keep an open mind when watching, This is his rifle and NOT my rifle so results may be different. Here is what I look at. If you fire at a 100-yard target and shoot groups less than 1/2 of an inch, That is fantastic ammo. when you developed a load that shoots ragged holes in less than a 1/4 inch at 100 yards,, That's awesome ammo. Those would be the ones that I would refrigerate and try later. Good video Johnny. Dave.
It is your seating depth and neck tension that is hurting some of your groups at higher velocities.
That Hornady Concentricity gauge is sweet
I appreciate this series too. It would be great if someone like Bob's did a 77 grainer for the purpose. Then I could settle on a final 556 load and be set indefinitely.
JRB the load with 25.2 Gr's of Accurate 2520 with the Sierra 77 Gr Matchking is the best group yet hands down. But when there is a flyer inches above the group, that is different point of impact, which is caused by difference is pressure and velocity, which is caused by difference is powder charge, crimp/ neck tension, and OAL.
Nice glad to see your back in action lol and the concristicity tester I would like to see how that thing effects the shooting have to load some rounds that are out and some that are right on and see the difference
Great Vid JRB, this is such a great series. I like the bullet runout test incorporated into the mix. Great shooting again.
I think with Varget you will run out of case capacity, but your accuracy will be real good. I run my 77 SMK at 24.0 Varget and there very accurate.
8208 and TAC Is the two most powders people use to clone this round. Hope you test those two powders, really interested.
Keep up the great vids.
77 SMK's with Varget are accurate. Not all powders leave enough case capacity for these bullets that protrude into the case volume. Some load data I've used just buckles casings. My 1:7 AR 18" barrel is very accurate while my Win Mod 70 .223 Varminter throws heavy 77g bullets sideways at the target and you get a nice profile hole.
Now what would be cool to know is consistency. Take the best charge from each powder for each bullet and shoot two/five round groups and one/ten round group to see how the accuracy holds from group to group and the ten shot group to test ultimate accuracy.
I'd like to see a video on your rifle cleaning techniques. Specially copper build up and cleanup.
Also, try Accurate 2495 with the Sierras. I've had great results.
As you have shown run out at 100 does not make much differance. At 500 or 600 it makes a differance. With the Hornaday tool you can fix most of the run out. I have fired a lot of rounds at 600. I used to shoot NRA service rifle. Great video on the Mk262 ammo. From what I have heard several other countries S O groups have went to this ammo.
I really enjoy the Vids. I am an avid reloader.
I would almost bet with a proper tuner brake these bullets/powders could in fact hit the velocities and stay accurate. Barrel Harmonics play a huge factor in small tight groups. Just a thought. Anyways enjoyed the info! Keep it going!
I'm getting my best groups with CFE223 at higher than published max charges, a good bit higher... Beats up the brass some but velocities, SD, and groups are awesome and 5.56 brass is easy to come by. Also using CCI #41 primers. Proceed with caution but it could be worth it.
Don’t blow your face off, Lol. (Per JRB)
These videos can't be long enough. Thank you!
When testing extruded powders, any chance you can incorporate 8208XBR into the mix? I keep reading people using it for MK262 on the forums with good luck.
Excellent video Johnny! Will have to try AA2520 in my WOA AR. The loads in this video show hardly any pressure signs IMHO. You could try bumping them up some. On the other hand, the 77gr bullets may lose accuracy at the higher velocities. BHA may have concluded that 2750FPS provides the most consistent accuracy at the highest velocity.
I went to 26.0 of cfe and pressure was tolerable accuracy was not. But I'm a better load scientist than a shooter lol
I had some crazy low velocity with CFE when I first started loading with it. IMO whatever they use to make the copper fouling eliminator in it is hygroscopic and even a short time in the hopper or with the jug unsealed can really effect it. Could be totally off base here but I have seen some WILD variance in CFE. I just started working with a new batch, 24.5gn with 77 grain SMKs. We will see how these run.
velocities in the 2650 range is where your best accuracy was. Outstanding accuracy from an AR-15. I know you're in the business of making videos and you'll want to make more so have at it. You will be very hard pressed to find better accuracy than that in the previous video. 2750 fps from a hugely heavy 'bullet for caliber' like a 77 grain bullet in a .556 is unreasonable in my book. Any mark on your case head means pressure...next time you load that case you will have a loose primer pocket.... high pressure sucks unless you are military and will not reload. Good shooting and good video
Concentricity thoughts: your test showed the 1/2 thou and 3 thou groups were not statistically different. Use your hornady concentricity tool to bend rounds to 5 or 6 thou runout, and retest (using 25.2gr of A2520 and 77MK). Most of my rifles do not discriminate below 3-4 thou runout once an accuracy node is found.
Maybe I’m a really basic dude with a really old fashion point of view but I think this format of video was your best. I don’t really care for the new Hightech whizbang stuff
I'd be interested to see what the difference in runout would be using a round with
Was this ever done? Rewatching a bunch of vids
@@BushmasterM4A3 not that I could find hence my point earlier on someone else's video BOLT ACTION rifles should be used as that's generally used in precision shooting long distance.
My experience with Varget has been at ~24 grains I'm definitely crunching powder, and not reaching the velocities I'd like w/77 SMK in a 20" WOA 223 Wylde pipe. But who knows, every case & barrel is different. However, one of my absolute favorite loads is an 80 SMK over 24.5 grains Varget, loaded 10 thou off lands. Due to the profile of the 80 SMK, combined with the longer OAL, powder is almost perfectly compressed (tiny crunch), and I get ~2715 fps out of the 20" WOA pipe. Super low ES & SD, shoots really well. For a bit more velocity, use the same amount of RL-15 under the 80 SMK. Slightly higher ES & SD, but velocity is ~2750 fps.
Dustysa4 I have had the same experience with varget. At 24gr I'm compressing, i pushed it to 24.6gr and the only way i can keep a bullet from pushing back out is running alot of neck tension. I'm only seeing 2650ish out of a woa 18" spr.
Look at how shallow some of the firing pin strikes are on the primers and theres a few that look to be deeper.
Need to put your 308 hunting load on the concentricity spinner. Fine tune the 308.
I was doing loads and I have added barrel temp, mine was running between 95 to 105 with 5 rounds and let cool down for 4 to 5 min between rounds, using a laser temperature gun, I check about a inch from the break cause I have a 15 inch hand guard, Im sure it was warmer closer to the receiver, but i want the same temperature between rounds
I did 26.0 cfe on a Hornaday 75 grain eldm w/rifle length gas system. Very faint ejector but not bad. Maybe it's gas system without a can helps the brass
The necks of cases will have inconsistent wall thicknesses. That is why benchrest shooters will use a lathe (neck turning tool). Without doing this, you have no control over concentricity once the bullet is seated. Putting a #17 rubber "O" ring under your seating die will improve your concentricity. Lee comes with them. bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/07/try-using-o-rings-with-sizing-dies-for-reduced-neck-run-out/
Also there is a way to test the burn rate of your new lot of CFE 223 to see if this lot is faster, just load up some Sierra 69 Gr BTHP Matchkings, using the same components.
Wouldn't it be intersting to confirm/verify the "chosen" loadings in the next video. Simple 5 shot groups as usual. Just to verify that it wasn't a fluke or simple luck. This thought occured to me several times when watching your videos. A single group of a given loading doesn't really tell that much.
My 3 powders for .223 is Winchester 748
Varget
IMR 3031
Getting good results out of all 3 give the IMR 3031 A TRY
Odin Works 18” DMR......I would love to see it on your channel
Hey Johnny can you run some Bergers for us too at some point? Sierra SMK's are like hen's teeth round here, and for some reason Berger bullets are everywhere...
I wonder Johnny if the berger 77 otm bullets would've been any better or not on some of these powders! Time to fire it up again!!
I'll be weathering Irma the next few days so keep those Black Hills videos coming please! Assuming power stays on I could use the entertainment. Id like to request a video on producing inexpensive 147grain 9mm ammo for USPSA. That would help a lot of shooters. 147 grain factory stuff is $.20-$.24 depending on the sales. Can that be beat reloading? Ive seen guys using polymer bullets which I know nothing about as a noob. Where to get those? Cost? Etc.
FYI. I saw Rem 6-1/2 and 7-1/2 at West Chester cabelas earlier this week. The 6-1/2s were on sale too.
Awesome, thanks! I might head up there tomorrow. Have they opened the new Bass Pro?
Johnny's Reloading Bench Not yet. Old bass pro still open though. Their reloading supplies are lacking though. Wish I could get the 7-1/2s for you and donate to the channel and save you a trip but the hazmat shipping charges suck. I may run up there after work and check the stock anyway. If they are low, I'll grab a box and let you know and figure out a way to get them to you.
Thanks, man. I really appreciate that offer. If it's out of your way to check don't worry about it. I can call ahead and make sure they're still in stock before I make the drive. If West Chester runs out I have Dayton, Cbus, Lexington, and Charleston to check! I am 1.5-2 hours from five different Cabela's! I'm not sure if that's convenient or depressing.
Ok. So I grabbed a box each of Rem 6.5 and 7.5. They still had 2 boxes of each left on the shelf after I grabbed those. So there are still some there if you still want to make the trip or I'll be happy to pass along the 7.5s for your series if you think of a good way for me to get them to you.
I can check Dayton if you ever need anything, make a weekly trip there!
You should revisit this
Would’ve been interesting to shoot the 24.4gr load to see if it was still as consistent as before
I tried varget and was disappointed with the velocity, if memory serves me right I was getting around 2650 from both my AR's, one is an 18" tube the other is 20", I was getting 2715 average with CFE from my SPR, TAC powder is showing promise
The chambering of round can change run out on bullet in ar platform
I usually test run out as close to the brass as I can
Our new thing to obsess about. LOL
Was wondering if you have used the RCBS X Die small base die set in .223? The dies you don't need to trim after the first trim to 1.740. If so was wondering if you have had good luck with them I have a set for my ar but I don't have anyway to measure speed from it. Never had any problem with the bullet I've made pretty tite groups. Just wonder what you think of the trim to 1.740? Thanks love your videos very Insightful.
For Nosler/AA2520 25.0 was closer to the node
For Nosler/CFE223 24.7 & 25.4 were closer to the nodes
For Sierra/CFE223 24.4 was closer to the node
Also, based on quickload data powder burn rates can be drastically affected by outside temp and barrel temperature.
Barrel Nodes - Length 18" (Estimates)
4 - 0.835
5 - 0.924
6 - 0.989
7 - 1.077
Cartridge : .223 Rem. (SAAMI)
Useable Case Capaci: 24.156 grain H2O = 1.568 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.246 inch = 57.05 mm
Barrel Length : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm
Bullet : .224, 77, Nosler CC HPBT 22421
Powder : Accurate 2520
Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
107 25.00 2730 1274 59003 9930 97.5 0.928 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
107 25.20 2754 1297 60868 9988 97.8 0.915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bullet : .224, 77, Sierra HPBT MatchK 9377
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223
Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
97 24.10 2539 1102 46974 9472 90.8 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
98 24.40 2586 1143 49578 9648 92.0 0.987 ! Near Maximum !
100 24.70 2633 1185 52346 9813 93.2 0.963 ! Near Maximum !
102 25.20 2732 1276 58697 10102 95.6 0.915 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
102 25.40 2768 1310 61254 10192 96.4 0.898 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
103 25.60 2780 1322 62230 10247 96.3 0.892 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bullet : .224, 77, Nosler CC HPBT 22421
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223
Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
97 24.10 2502 1071 44882 9403 89.6 1.033
98 24.40 2538 1101 46796 9551 90.4 1.014 ! Near Maximum !
100 24.70 2594 1151 49858 9760 92.0 0.984 ! Near Maximum !
101 25.00 2651 1201 53143 9951 93.5 0.956 ! Near Maximum !
102 25.20 2682 1230 55104 10053 94.2 0.941 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
102 25.40 2713 1259 57145 10150 94.8 0.926 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
103 25.60 2739 1283 58925 10231 95.3 0.913 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
556 pressure is 62k
There's no need for the benchrest primers with an AR, unless you go with a light hammer spring. My bolt guns won't set them off, though. So I use BR for bolts.
As for the groups opening up, the SD went down. I'd rather an SD of 9 with a 1" group than a 1/2" group at 20 SD.
Spray & pray, Ah ya who wouldn't want bigger groups?🤣🤣
Did you get those 77gr elvis cast bullets, from ELVIS AMMO ,for testing?
One problem I see is that you keep changing variables in your experiments. Not just your powder charges and bullets, but something as simple as putting the black dot in the center of your stickers can effect the results you get. Just a thought.
You will not get the velocity with varget. I'm compressing powder around 24gr. I've loaded up to 24.7gr behind a 77gr nosler and its not holding the bullet unless i have alot of neck tension. No signs of pressure, just not enough case capacity. Out of the same woa spr barrel I'm getting about 2650fps, maybe its a slow lot, but i think thats about normal. Still bangs steel at 500yds just fine.
The point of sensor at very base of bullet just ahead of neck becuase bullet jacket can vary in thickness
Any difference in the runout after cambering a round? Wonder if it changes anything. v. hand loading them. Similar to a semi auto v. bolt gun.
👍👍👍
Do u need a different rod, i guess thats what it would be called, to put the tail end of the brass into for different size brass??
Long bullets with stick powders ......gonna be compressed ...crunch... crunch
Have you considered loading the hodgdon 4350 extreme temp stability powder?
Johnny, I know this is old but in the quest of finding a clone MK 262. Would it have been better to use a batch of once fired BH brass for the test to see if case volume would have contributed to the accuracy?
Did you compare R.O. from the HDY R.O. machine to other devices like the Sinclair or RCBS? Why do you think the HDY device idications have anything to do with position of the bullet when the cartridge is held in place in the rifle chamber?
Johnny, is there a Berger projectile that would compare to these two? Something in the 77gr range that can load to mag length?
Yes. I have the 77gr OTM Tactial that I'll be testing soon.
Johnny do you full length , bump, or neck size brass on your hunting cases
installing a tuner/brake does this eliminate all this powder change adjusting to find good groups.
that would make sense as I have seen the difference shooting 200 yds. @ 2600 / 2800 / 3000 fps. when my tuner is dialed in to 2800 fps.
Can you do a flash comparison between the powders?
You should auction the target results on Ebay or something.
Need to try A2015 I've heard it can get fps on up without having pressure issues
AA 2015 might shoot good but as far as what you heard, IDK where you get that from. You would end up around 22 grs, maybe a bit less. It's a great powder, I use it a lot, but not for heavies.
What would running CCI 450’s do in terms of pressure spikes with loads running this close together? All I have to use is 450’s and I’m not sure id be able to find any 41’s for a while. Also, are the Berger OTM out of the question because they don’t have cannilure?
Late to the party, just stumbled upon this. Have you tried doing a "round robin" approach to making groups?
I know that this has nothing to do with your video, but i could use your knowledge. I have 2 browning auto 5's both made in Belgium. One is a light twelve with a 26 1/2 inch barrel. The other is a magnum with a 29 1/2 inch barrel. My question to you is how do i know what i can shoot out of each? How do i know if the barrels are choked or not? Can i shoot a slug or buck shot ect... Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Chris
Do you check the velocities on the flyer rounds? Just curious if those shots show any pattern relative to the rest of the group.
I always look over at the chronograph when I have a weird one. I didn't notice any trends on their velocity...they were all normal.
Why measure concentricity after the round is loaded? Measure the cases prior to loading so you can correct any conceivable runout with a swage and case trimmer.
Do you think your barrel was dirty by the time you got back to the CFE SMK loads? What about shooter fatigue?
All Hail Nosler! Long live the new King!
CFE223 is a powder I'd never use for top group shooting. I was never impressed with it except for blasting ammo.
He is not trying to get top groups in general but to evaluate the max for the specific powder. The performance is much better than most of the factory loads anyways.
is it just me or does that cfe223 stink when you shoot it?
In ar style doesnt matter howcstraight more effective in bolt gun.
Anything 9mm related coming any time soon?
We ran out western pouder in Europe, no ramshot tac or wildboar any x-term anymore. i must begin bringing v-max50grain and vihta133 or 140 together for fox.Anybody?
what is your barrel length? and is it .223 or .556?
Old video but I was looking for 2520 you were loading 77 gr im loading 52 gr hornady ELD match 23.5 gr of 2520 16 inch barrel BCA
So I thought you were supposed to check runout on the neck not the actual bullet?
What is the twist rate on your barrel?
wat till you shoot that 2520 load on a 100 degree day , you will have huge ejector swipes
Our soldiers should be using mk262. Lake City needs to start mass producing it as it would be a lot better than m855 or m193
If you tested and found .003 runout why didn't you use the same tool to straighten them out ? Hence the word tool?
What range are you shooting at?
have you tried H322 yet
I have gotten really good accuracy with A 2495. don't know about velocity, no chrony. Might be something there though
forgot to mention I was using 77 gr. SMK . Most groups 1/4 moa or better.
I Have started to rotate my shell 3 or 4 times as I seat. No clue if it works
Have put 46gran 218 bee bullets in a 22-250. That were crooked and all screwed up and shot under an inch.
What scope is that on the rifle?
what does knowing the runout numbers do for you?
It just tells you that everything is straight. What that does for you, I still need to test. Stay tuned.
8208 ???
What gas length is that?
Do you have a P.O box Johnny?
BLC(2)
Sorry to say, the hornady tester/tool is not the best for measuring TIR
Is 25.2 gr A2520 a full grain .2 over max?
Western load data has it at 25.5 but that's about max 556 pressure at around 62k psi
@@mboost3151 im at 25.3 with little to no pressure signs running 7.5 rem primers and 77gr smk
Now thats how poor CFE usually shoots for me , not well !