LETHAL Toxicity! What Sort of Unit is Unhealthier For the Game? [Fire Emblem Heroes]
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- Опубликовано: 11 апр 2024
- Just a little meta discussion surrounding two highly controversial units
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Ah the classic debate: "The unmovable Object Vs. The unstoppable Force....FEH version."
The awnser is very clear, at you can kill nukes.
I'd say the new Ike is the most toxic unit in the game right now.
Iunno some of the recent nukes have 30% first attack DR and sometimes they survive if you don't hit them with something at least Summer Ephraim caliber
Not when V! Lyon just straight up cancels your turn lmao
Ike is the only hero that has ever made me surrender upon sight of him on a team. He isn't implied to be the strongest emblem for nothing, lol.
Rise up, tank brothers. 🛡️
It is once again our time. 🔥
Alright time for IS to bust out the Surtr remix and refine to beat Ike
👀
FEH is getting to the point where it is impossible to use some old units against newer units. Weapon advantage color means nothing unless IS decides to do something insane with triangle advantage 4.
I wish color adv naturally doubled, prevented follow up and bypass DR. the +damage means nothing when newer units stack tons of both DRs. they need to fix stuff up.
They need to start adding some triangle advantage buffs as standard to ALL new units. Like, tanks have 40% DR when they have colour advantage, nukes prevent defensive specials, etc.
The colour wheel used to mean a lot at the start of feh - I couldn't kill a green tank with with my blue nuke, but the red worked. Or my red tank would tank the green unit, but the blue tank died. These days, if tank A doesn't work, then none of my tanks work.
TA is not inherently a bad effect. It's only issue is it occupying the A slot, which is better used to increase stats instead. If it was a supportive buff like the one Maribelle gives, it'd be miles better. Maribelle just isn't used often because her TA effect is tied to her attacking, and a healer forced to attack is not optimal. If TA was given at the start of turn instead, it'd be much better. Maybe name it Triangle Tactics for some juicy copyright issue.
There is a way to Kill Emblem Ike with duo Lyon without Fatal smoke, but it requires emblem marth +quickened pulse or some other way to pre charge Iceberg like duo Askr, but if you can hit an Iceberg as the first attack it kills him 100% of the time
I tested it and works.
I remember when AR first came out and Surtr was a bonus unit for like 4 weeks, and whales would use 6 of him to win by time out. 😔
Arena needs full team preview. Your score bots aren't gonna be able to beat Emblem Ike unless you tank your score to build a counter.
To be honest, while I despised Valentine Lyon, I think having an omni tank that is impossible to kill is worse because atleast nukes are squishy and after killing 1 unit they can't do too much more than that but with a tank if you don't have the dps, it is impossible to kill them and they wipe your entire team. I say this as a person who has emblem ike, he is absolutely disgusting.
Yeah my only issue with nukes is when they prevent your units from having a turn. Otherwise, they have a clear weakness and they do their intended job well.
Lyon also dies to Asc.Fjorm + Ike Emblem if he tries to attack into her.
When your tanks can't even tank the tanks then it's kinda crazy. The powercreeps and meta shifts has been bonkers within the last year.
Modern nukes arent even that squishy. They take hits pretty well with DR.
Nukes have counterplay, you can avoid and maneuver around nukes(usually)
You have to eventually bring tanks into combat and as Ike as and example is so hard to kill. Which it never had to be this way. Caeda was a great omni-tank. But Ike took what she had, said "what if you couldnt ignore my DR, and im killing you on my retaliation" this is even on Caeda who should eat a red unit
My issue as a casual that doesnt play summoners duel and only really do arena as any "pvp". Im a tank enjoyer and my maxed out brave edelgard +10 can't tank 99% of newer units. I kind of find it ridiculous that a 0 merge unit with no investment can tank better than her. But it's way more frustrating to see her tank 1 hit only to not kill the enemy nuke as she counter and go down afterward. Oh well
Bruh she is a premier near save ofc she won't be good with ranged nukes
Unkillable tanks that kill back is the worst
I would love tanks like the shuckle archetype, where they live anything but in turn can't kill anything, the issue is tanks are also nukes nowadays. Nukes at least are pretty easy to kill, though that said there have been several times I've been unable to kill a lyon with a physical, albeit relatively old, unit because he gets 25 def/res free. Like base v!lyon has more Def than base e!ike during combat, that's insane. When kjelle was peak save unit for like a week, that was bearable because she couldn't do much back. The issue is w!byleth and e!Ike both nuke so hard with huge, dr ignoring, instant specials.
The issue with Ike, much as I love him, is that he's both. If not for his forced Vantage, his player phase would be awful, but as is you can't even tank him.
Tanks are by far worse because they cause an even larger powercreep spike in offensive units to ungodly levels. But also, you can manoeuvre your way to defeat a nuke, you cant do that in to a tank
Honestly, in my opinion, the omni tanks that don't die are worse. Nothing more demoralizing than having to watch as an omni tank bares down on you while you can only run away because everyone freak'n dies trying to fight said tank and any damage done is immediately healed off. I know as someone who's experienced that many times already.
It's even worse when you deal with everyone else on the enemy team easily, and the omni tank is the only one left standing between a win.
You know you have a problem when the last best tank before him, Attuned Caeda, cannot beat him even with color advantage. Attuned Caeda was pretty healthy I think, stupidly strong, but with a good decent amount of weaknesses where she couldn't do absolutely everything, but maybe I'm biased because I like her. As usual, Caeda's new released unit got powercrept pretty fast, didn't expect to be the exact next unit to do it though.
EXACTLY! And the fact that they just have like 2 weeks of difference is INSANE. The biggest problem with Ike imo is Null C.
@@a-j-o-l-o-t-3 Which *had* to be given to him because of the Duo Formotis bastard.
For me I would argue unkillable tanks are more unhealthy for the game. While I hate going against either of them, most nukes are a knowledge check, you need to plan around them and use the AI to your advantage to be able to kill them. Tanks are a numbers check, either you are able to kill them or you can't, which is bad because they heavily encourage you to summon for specific modern threats to be able to stack up to their numbers. Either way, I wish all of you good luck on any of your future summons!
its so much fun stealing gotohs buff with Tina, and the stone divine vein is turned off after my divine vein flame attacker turns it off and igrene can go for the oneshot freely, only problem ive run into once was a pulse tie user, but other than that we winning UwU.
There's counterplay to Tina too though, just make sure Ike doesn't have the most bonuses lol
Id say theif from that one staff unit, I guess she can be a good counter to remove all buffs and give it to your team, I think I encountered less than 3 ikes for my defense videos
I'm still in initial testing, but I think Seidr might actually be a legitimate choice for this. Simply have your units ignore Ike and attack the helpless supports stunned on the bottom row.
Hey Tacho, I don't have enough fatal smoke 4 either, but have used fatal smoke 3, along with flared and assassin skills to get as much melt damage as possible. Also, didn't run AOE's in light season because I assumed most teams would have Gotoh support for Ike.
I feel like we'll find out his actual counters after bonus season because that stat inflation is insane but even then what if you go against a nid to high merge ike right like i feel like your just done if you do that
Imo I would take nukes over tanks any time of the day. Nukes are balanced in a way of you needing to initiate before they initiate. With Duo Lyon you're not going to let him initiate because of all the damage he starts with + the end turn smoke + he doesnt even let you counter attack, you need to attack him before he attacks you. With nukes in general they're pretty squishy when you initiate. You just have to avoid their range + the range they get from a dancer and they either have low def or res or both and then you get the kill. With tanks they can just live hits vs an entire team if they have allies around so you just have to take their allies out so that the tank can be vulnerable or power through and wittle the tank down with enough nuke fire power. Emblem Ike ignores all of that with TRUE damage reduction so even if the game says you deal 20×2 you actually do 0×2, you cant even wittle him down with firesweep because he has null c disrupt, he says no to any penalty he has, he does a minimum of 40 damage with Great Aether and deals extra damage on top of that to the foe + any foes around that foe, and has ultra high hp, atk, def, res and he HEALS! A way to counter him is by using the ultra niche fatal smoke which is less than like 10 units in the game or something but even then he can just deal a ton of damage and destroy the fatal smoke user so it doesn't even matter if everyone has it especially if none of them deals over 0 damage. Even if you take out his allies he can still tank an entire team! He could have a ton of support but let's say he has no allies left he can just ignore that and keep going on! You can counter Ike with scowl but if he has rally spectrum he ignores that, you can counter Ike with F Maria support but if he has fatal smoke 4 himself because he doesn't really need canto he can ignore miracle, you can obliterate him with an aoe but good luck if youraoe nuke deals 0 damage after that, and if he has Gotoh support or Divine Stone support just GIVE UP! I've been trying to figure out how to take out Emblem Ike and I think Nyx with a charged up miracle+fatal smoke+hardy bearing can take him out? But the issue with that is how many people have access to Nyx let alone miracle all charged up with fatal smoke but besides I don't even think Nyx can take him out after that.
Dang idk I could yap so much
Ike in light season is the most toxic thing in the game. Gotoh and Lumera make him unkillable. The only other counter for him is scowl and the only reliable way to get it is with duo robin for ranged units which Mila could just isolate. Unkillabe tanks will always be worse especially if they are also nukes.
Not to mention that Ike can circumvent [Hush Spectrum] anyway by being run with [Rally Spectrum] support from Brave/Young M!Robin.
Have a nice day.
I think all around just the one shot meta is super toxic. Back in year one when it took multiple actions to take down a tank & weapon triangle actually mattered. Great stuff. The tank couldn't one shot your nuke and that's good it's not their job. Gives a purpose to healers too.
Nowadays it's a back and forth of "become so tanky you survive everything" and "become so nukey nothing can tank you". Full support team with tank or full support team with nuke. One is pretty much always better than the other (usually nukes because they sell), just depends on the week. It's kinda dull, but I guess that's to be expected from a game so old that's updated so frequently.
When I see unkillable tank, I think of those Reddit posts where the player turns on auto play and it lasts for more than 1000 turns because neither the allied characters, nor the enemy can kill each other.
It's not just Ike being strong that's annoying, it seems like a large amount of the playerbase that's left right now spends on the game. I'm not kidding when I say this, but I've had 7 defense replays this week so far and every single one of them had Ike... Keep in mind, Ike isn't even a guarantee summon unless you have Feh Pass. Ironically enough, I think the power of Ike is even worse than the level of F!Edelgard on release. People loved complaining about her yet she at least had very accessible F2P counters. For Ike, you're pretty much at the mercy of whoever is using him. If they bring supports that mitigate the little counters he has, good luck lol.
I don't have the defense team victories against Emblem Ike because these victories happened last season in Aether Raids.
However, the one victory was against a heavily supported Ike that had 76 HP, over 50 def and 50 res, including buffs. My team includes a unit that inflicts panic on nearly all opponents, a Atk/Spd/Res debuff on almost all opponents, which lowered Ike's stats to almost 36 or so on each of his stats. And when my Ivy used her tempest skill was able to attack Ike and survive the counterattack (even after activating Ike's special), she gets danced and attacks once again and kills Ike, the rest of my defense team made a meal out of the rest of the opponents. So far, my defense team has not failed since I created the team about the time that Duo Lyon's banner was released. And also Galeforcing or player phasing doesn't work either os they can't get close enough to my team to even attack my team - the people that have tried may have killed 2 of my defensive units, but the remainder of my team ate the opponent for lunch.
My units aren't merged or anything. I just decided to change up my team when my old team was outdated.
One way to deal with a Gotoh supported Ike is to use that healer with the Thief staff. I don't have her though 😅
You can try Tina and a strong aoe. You can also use Marth ring duo lyon with askr support to get a decent chance of killing him.
Tina isn't fullproof though, he can just have 1 less bonus then somebody else and you can't steal his stuff
@tacho9427 Your right, but you generally have to apply multiple strategies for ard. I am currently using a duo robin nott rally trap with instant iceberg lyon with fatal smoke. No has used Ike against this team. You can try giving pass (most likely with a return trap) or using a warping unit like Hel or harken to snipe the support units (not recommended). Physics trap fallen Maria to get her in range of the attacking unit. Scion Leif (units with inherit miracle) with flared sparrow assasin strike fatal smoke 3 with poison strike can bring him down a decent amount and another unit might be able to snipe him from there in this case both units survive. Aoe lyon without fatal smoke seems to consistently kill him unless gotoh, but treachery support fixes this. Overall most of these strategies are niche or require newer units which is kind of bad. Edit: if you can get glacies to full charge Valentine lyon has no problem killing him without fatal smoke.
As much as I like using raid boss/tank comps, it’s not fun getting walled by them haha.
Hey, James Smiley here (that's what I go by nowadays; DA125 is the name that I went by when I first made my GFAQs account; and no, I can't change my username lol), and nice to see my thread be featured here.
I think I've said my piece on GFAQs more than a few times, but, having used Emblem Ike myself and put in as much investment into him as my budget would allow, I can safely say that I agree with the majority position on my thread. Yes, both extremes are very much unhealthy, but at least with nukes like Duo Lyon, you can outplay them, as Tacho said in the vid. After all, most nukes are glass cannons and can be killed relatively easily on your own phase if you can bait them into a vulnerable position.
This is absolutely *not* the case with Ike. If you see an Ike in AR-D or arena and you don't have one of the very few things that can even remotely check him, you've basically lost on Turn 1. And if you're using Ike on offense, you can pretty much just write off any setup that doesn't carry AoE spammers or [Hush Spectrum] rally traps, and even then, those are only checks to him at best because the former can be nullified by Gotoh's [AoE Ward] or Lumera's DV Stone while the latter can be circumvented by Brave/Young M!Robin's [Rally Spectrum]. Even Fatal Smoke only mildly annoys him since in order to actually inflict [Deep Wounds] on him, the unit running FS needs to live a round of combat against him. Given that he has both DR piercing *and* NCD (and before you say, "I'll just give my FS user Fallen Maria support", Ike can run FS4 himself to bypass this), good luck with that. And while Fallen Julia can inflict this status on him without entering combat herself, she needs to beat his res by 5, which she can't do without a fair amount of investment.
To put into perspective on just how overtuned Emblem Ike actually is, the closest analogue from legacy versions of this game I can think of would be Fallen Edelgard. And *even then, Fedel at her peak had more consistent counterplay* (i.e: she had no answer to counterattack denial, you could leverage effective damage against her, Pulse Smoke basically ensured you never ate a Bonfire if trying to enemy phase her, etc). And, if I'm going to be honest, as stupid as Ike is (and he's plenty stupid, mind), he could've been *way* worse. Ike being an infantry unit saved us from an alternate reality where he was instead an *armored* unit and thus could run savior skills.
Since I'm still in the area, I would recommend checking out my thread on GFAQs discussing Nuke Theory and how it could evolve: gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/204447-fire-emblem-heroes/80735091
Have a nice day.
I think the problem is the cycle of powercreep itself. Unkillable tank generate unfair nuke and the cycle go on. The main issue is that IS forcing their competitive playerbase to always keep pulling for new tools instead of rewarding the players to merge and invest into units they like.
Chip damage and flat DR are now extremly just plain braindead and 90% of Book8 units you need to choose to loose with those units so much they take little effort to win. :/
Yes I complain like a lot of players, but I think that are valid when we look at how the game design are completly bad this year, even for a gacha. So many veterant players quitted this year or just gone casual (and I'm one of them) and there a reason for that.
Sadly IS are just keep feeding those lazy whale all the time and I feel soon or later the game just loose too much player to be able to survive. :/
This was partially my sentiment I posted in the topic Tacho lurked in but I ultimately pinned the blame on unkillable tanks who can ALSO NUKE.
We've had very good units who have incredible defense. I think back to Micaiah. When she first came out in year 2, she was insanely versatile. You could have her tank Brave Lyn and Reinhardt at their peak and counter them. You could have her armor bust Hector to oblivion. But she couldn't do both, you had to choose what kind of character she was. In contrast, the shining example of extremely poor balance was Fallen Edelgard. The unkillable tank who could also nuke.
Fallen Edelgard had counterplay but you needed specific tools that not every unit had access to. Some type of guaranteed or null follow up to counter her Wary Fighter, and you needed to do enough damage to take her down in 2 hits on your player phase or 2 rounds on enemy phase since she came with 40% damage reduction on the first hit of her phase and she had special fighter so she'll be charging up Bonfire to blow you up on the second round of her player phase. Most armor effective units couldn't handle her for one reason or another. My enemy phase armor breaker, Kid Marth couldn't charge his special and couldn't take her down in 2 hits. My player phase variant, Tsubasa, had no access to some guaranteed follow up.
My first counter for her was a Vantage +QR3 Boey. Quick Riposte to do 2 hits, and then Vantage to take her down before the Galeforce bonfire. After that was a Near Save Black Knight with QR3+Special Fighter.
Because of the sheer amount of effects she had, the following nukes designed to counter her ramped up the damage output like crazy and if they could take her down, most other Armors in her class would crumble easily as well. This is what kicks off the powercreep cycle of creating new unkillable tanks that can dispatch said nukes and newer nukes that can dispatch said unkillable tanks.
So I look at Ike as the culmination of the extremely rapidly accelerating powercreep from Wind Claude to Winter Byleth to V!Lyon to now Ike.
TL;DR the biggest issue with the Powercreep is creating unkillable tanks who can also nuke. They're too versatile. Choose one or the other.
@@SadFace229 I agree with you !
I also think the powercreep main issues is how fast it became now and how it hard to use olders units even with all those arcane and fantastic T4 skills. It still possible to a point but stuff change so fast it become overwhelming. D:
I personnaly dislike both them equaly, Ike, Caeda, Myrrh and Byleth just make my invested nuke almost useless and meanwhile Lyon, Igrene and Sanaki just make most of my tank look frail. D:
Depends on the game mode. I would rather face tanks in AR, I would rather face neither in Arena, and I would rather face nukes in SD. I prefer a tank strategy for my own army, though. Many game modes punish losing a single unit, so only being able to get in and kill one nuke when they have a stack of nukes behind the nuke feels pretty unfair.
I technically had a aether raids defense that dealt with emblem Ike. The thing that made it successful was that my team went around him and snipped someone else.
Nukes are at least counterable if you position correctly or snipe them intentionally. Tanks like I require a very specific type of unit that can pierce their specific type of defenses. And even then, you need the stars to align perfectly (skill wise) to get the correct means to kill them.
With regards to the defence team that can beat ike, I spent hours on Monday making a defence with the new duo robin that works sometimes. Unfortunately I can't test fully with ike because my Ike is astra blessed and this defence is dark, but it kills my w!byleth with peony, gotoh and lumera support, and it kills off-blessing bonus ike with the same mythics support, but only if robin gets reposition off, which annoyingly she doesn't in some places so if the opponent pushes Ike right up close, robin doesn't use repos and dies and then the rest of the team folds.
Ivy also does great work, expanding the danger zone super far to put pressure on, surviving Ike and byleths nukes and then cantoing back to let other units have a go, which is when robin should reposition and kill but it depends on the ai.
Theres also hel because shes a bonus unit, who doesn't do much but her miracle means she guaranteed lives both ike and byleth and can be annoying, and then embla and spring chloe are somewhat supportive. Then theres just dancer eldigan providing guidance + dance, and bride!tiki to try and stop hit and run.
Ivy actually might be the key, I just pulled a spare w!yunaka on the double special heroes so i can give fatal smoke to ivy and because she lives it might cripple some ikes. Actually that would've been perfect because shes attuned so can dupe it and i thought for a moment she could get the b skill too but she cant because yunaka is physical and she needs the magical version... I do also have a summer shamir for fatal smoke fodder but it feels wasteful to not also give the other skills and ivy doesn't really need brash assault. Maybe if I just run hardy bearing sacred seal actually, Ike's retaliation wont be the special, and then the next unit (hopefully robin) doesn't have the uphill battle of starting against full hp Ike. Edit never mind Ike gets another cooldown from the first hit so he does shoot his special off. Rip
Hoping all's better for you since the last video. :D As for the topic at this stage of the game both are miserable, although you've got a good point about tanks. I don't think it would be like this if IntSys updated and expanded the map environments, added and allowed greater amount of new traps which possibly interacted with each other. Flame and vine tiles were a start, but far from being great as the readability of maps suffers when half of the entire map is covered by them also resulting in not having enough room to strategize before being forced into unwinnable fights.
I genuinely have no idea what is going on with Aether Raids anymore nor do I have the time to figure out the complexities either. Despite having a large roster of units for different scenarios with moderate to high skill investment and some merges, each one just gets bodied whether it's AR-O or AR-D. I've managed to tank the new Ike, but even then it comes down to luck whether I can take him down or not. Upgrading my +10 Kronya with Fatal Smoke 4 was the right move earlier this year, but alone it's not enough.
I was able to kill 2 Ikes this week on my defenses. They didn't have Gotoh, but I also am not using AOEs.
Miracle Igrene, Ivy, and the new Robin destroy him together.
MIracle Igrene gets infinite miracle pretty much because of Ikes forced reverse vantage. Ivy comes in second, she doesn't survive unless she has an Emblem Ike ring though. Then Robin comes in and harsh spectrum buffs, then comes in and kills. 😂
I can only speak from my own experiences between these 2.
When it comes to Lyon, I do use him on occasion in AR, both offense and defense. When i use them, they get the job done. When I fight against them, I'm actually not always losing, but the chip damage is usually enough for another Hero to finish the job, even though Mystic 4 and Ratatoskr healing.
Even in Arena, Lyon is even more obnoxious just due to my limited chose in Scoring Heroes. It's really depressing watching my losses drive to "oh shoot, i can hit Lyon, but he can get me." I'm also an exception just due to have Duo Dagr at +10, so i can usually Pathfinder to him. In AA, its always a rough pick due to how limited my choices can get.
When it comes to Ike, for the short time he's been out, it's just been nuts how my Arena runs are just shut down by him. I spent near 2 hours this week just to complete my run and get my ticket. In Aether Raids i have him on defense right now just to be Raid Boss for the end.
Ike at least how some counter in Fatal Smoke, but surrendering your C slot and potentially a Hero to take him down.
🐀
...I do not like the idea that Tacho is lurking around Gfaqs reading my bad takes and even worse summon luck 😅
I always find myself wondering when we're gonna reach critcal mass with the amount of units we just to prepare for or we insta lose to. Like I know Ninjilla doesn't particularly fit the tank vs nuke debate, but she's another unit that when she came out, your team could either deal with her, or she rampaged through your units. Ike made me think of her more than Fallen Edelgard.
I'm waiting for that day when competitive content just becomes the most recent meta threats vs the only units in the game that can actually handle them, due to the stars aligning with thier kit. Stuff like Duo Igrene beating Emblem Ike, or Bector actually standing up to Duo Sanaki thanks to nulling his own penalties.
Meta vs Anti Meta while 900+ irrelevant units cheer from the sidelines 😅
I think we already reached critical mass lol
(btw Gfaqs generally has better takes than reddit from what I've seen!)
What about the recent incurable or serpentine staffs? Dont they deny healing?
They do, but at the cost of having to use a basically useless unit (Staff type with inferior weapon)
The best way to deal with Ike is to do as much damage as possible on the first hit.
Prechared specials are definitely the way to go against him if they have Goto and in astra season duo chole actually does ALOT against him.
Running a base with Duo Chole and DUO YIMR that does a number on him especially cuz he can’t kill any of my nukes anymore and the team covers 4 lanes so it often picks out his support units as the nukes linger thanks to duo YIMR.
Ike with fatal smoke 4 can counter this tho… but my base still does suprisimg well.
As for light season… YIKES… the best thing I could do was make a healing trap team with ascended Elincia, Rearmed Sonia, and Triandra with Ariel maneuvers and they move past Ike and kill his support units (see a trend here) but this does lose to Gatekeeper… 😂😂
For some reason tho… no one uses gatekeeper against me like I haven’t faced one in +4 months or more like thank goodness he’s a hard to get unit
Anytime I see people go "emblem ike is easy to kill" I JUST KNOW they're going up against IKEs in AR with no C slot (I've been seeing those), no SS, only 2 mythics LMAO. BARELY any supports for him. Or they legit don't care about having their other team members die in AR. Those opinions don't matter. (I know someone is getting their panties twisted in anger reading this XD)
Like he was so easy on the PvE content because his map didn't have much in terms of support, and you could actually AOE him more easily (let alone you don't have to work around an ungodly amount of structures and traps)
Tbh unkillable tanks are the main issue. Anytime they introduce some new tanking strat they begin to release a wave of new damage types for nukes that literally annoys everyone.
Like my tank is Special Spiral 4 Duo Duma, he tanks at least 3 Cav Nukes easily. People complaining about Cav Nukes just aren't bothering to build up their save unit (Special Spiral 4 + Armored Beacon or Floe, Veyle or Scowl, etc)
The FACT that ike cuts through DR wasn't needed. He's already surviving lol.
TBH this is why I've been keeping the Deep wounds/Savage Blow staff on my Spring Bruno. Though I'm kinda waiting until after IKEs bonus week to go back into that BS again, because the inflated HP he gets does not help in AoE+Chip damage
Tanks were actually getting to a pretty healthy spot with releases like V!Myrrh, W!Byleth, A!Caeda, etc. where they were super solid and could win a lot of important matchups, but then lost in others. You had to pick your spots with them, but they could be effective still.
Ike just wins against everything with no exceptions.
Ike can still be killed with blue nukes with either Scowl or Fatal Smoke and let other nukes finish him. V!Lyon's crazy burn damage has no counter as of now. When IS release a unit that can nullify burn damage, V!Lyon's value drops to a lot but Ike's value remains a slight loss or the same.
Its always a push and shove game. Answer will always change lol. I prefer end turn kill everything tanks like Ike cuz im lazy but its undeniable Ike is definitely unbalanced currently. His weaknesses are soooo easy to cover even with budget options. And whats crazy is he’ll kill almost anything by initiating lol. Like seriously why is a tank like this player phasing 80% of the units?
Hate to say this (since im so bored of FGO) but feh could do what FGO did and change how their card types worked. Like instead of the typical Attack influx between units of different colors, they can add an additional effect. Reds getting an additional effect vs Green, Green an additional effect vs Blue, etc. Neutral matchups (colorless) while each other neutral color match up gets an additional effect (like 2 reds up against each other would simulate 2 godswords against each other....or Ike, so it would nullify in-combat stat debuffs if your stats are lower than your opponents (2 or more between atk, spd, def,res) by X. (X=5 x each stat comparison, max 10)
Making color advantage matter again would be a nice first step.
Color advantage hasn't mattered since like, year 3 lmao
Brash assualt 4 + miracle + hardy bearing on a high nuke unit thats able to consitently use its special on the second hit kills ike. I was able to do 100 dmg on ike with my legendary yuri with lethality.
Is there something that can add "prevent effects that would prevent unit's counterattack?" for cavs?
You mean like firesweep? There are plenty that have that, but nowadays the tanks have Null-C so it doesn't matter much
I think there's no counter to Null-C effects at the moment.
@@tacho9427 well firesweep would also prevent me from attacking twice. I want the ability to null their null in order to ensure I can counter.
Player phase players: Tanks are worse
Enemy phase players: Nukes are worse
Me: both, they make my old favorites irrelevant.
Forgive the long explanation, but I'm sure it is more complex than saying that one is worse than the other. I think omnitanks are a bigger problem in summoner duels specifically, because it's quite harder to bait away a dedicated tank here.
In arena BOTH are an issue, especially because most nukes in arena are either flying with some kind of movement buff, or ranged cavs. If you noticed, intsys has not given us a F2P ranged cav in forever - which is a bit obnoxious to say the least... They REALLY want you to use orbs for that kind of investment it seems. So for me, the nukes in arena feel worse. Having only melee for scoring feels like garbage on seasons that I can't use L!camilla.
I do actually have successful defenses in AR against E!Ike - lemme explain. They can be dealt with...by not dealing with them. Catria/Save balls not only fell off because nukes were just hitting mega hard on top of dealing with bolt tower, but shutting off warping is getting slightly easier. Oh and you know, units like Ike will tank them anyway with good support. Could explain why no matter how godawful the balancing between the two gets, I can always rely on cavlines to, on some level, pressure my opponent on defense enough to take a retreat or big enough lift loss - because they weren't able to move their units away from the death field and/or galeforce *(mid protected by Gatekeeper, 3move dancer, generic staff cav with Incurable&Savage Blow 6, NY!Seidr, 2 cav nukes).*
I have a merged E!Ike, he is pretty filthy, but in AR he is not an autowin because you still have to *safely* drop him away from your other units. (Unless of course, your opponent is not using cavlines.)
I'm obviously biased in favor of tanking because I enjoy that playstyle most, but instead of giving us more skills and weapons that we can use to make older units better, they continue to churn out insanely busted meta-breakers that in a vacuum do WAY more for you than they would if you just turned them into fodder, with the exception of rearmed and attuned. And I'd argue the rearmed units' weapon fodder actually still suck compared to current gen PRFs.
Nukes are often glass cannons which you can kill with better positioning or if they make a misplay, tanks that are literally unkillable no matter what makes for lazy gameplay where you don’t have to out position and you can just slowly creep closer pushing the opponent back till they give up. One has counter play that can beat them, the other has a surrender button to end the misery faster.
This is why i feel bait units are important not necessarily a unit that can tank every hit but just a unit to survive a round of combat with a nuke
Is there anyway you can make Ike, L!Ike, Fallen Ike to be a god tank with their speed or with god tier slots while being +10? But AOE specials beat Ike imo cause my Ascendant Ced to beat the other units and chip Ike to 0.
No son Dios
habla bien
tanks are always objectively worse. to answer these types of question just go with the absolute extreme. what if a unit had the unit doesn't take damage effect vs a unit that had a does 99 damage ignoring all abilities skills and specials. in one of these worlds would the game be done for the other is just getting to the point quicker than what already happens.
if a unit can literally one shot anything can you still player phase that unit but there is absolutely no strategy that can counter an immortal tank by deffenition
both, in fact I think that no unit should die 1 hit kill to any stronger nuke, just as no omnitank should be able to withstand more than a standard tank, in the original games there is almost no such thing as a unit entering combat and already killing the opponent, This loses a lot of the game's strategic potential, I would even say that the summoner duel would be more attractive if all units didn't die in just 1 fight, it would be a more strategic game, and it would balance each character 10x better, summoner duels today If it comes down to who can pull the trigger first, it's ridiculous.
The fast pace of SD is good though, since we have limited time to make our moves and getting KOs faster just simplifies the game
@@tacho9427 This simplicity seems like child's play, I would really prefer something closer to the main games, where it's not so simple to take down a unit.
I don't want to play Summoner Duels but I'd rather say unkillable tanks is worse just because now you can't actually make progress vs unkillable tanks. The weapon triangle really needs to shine more somehow and be updated, as it is a complete joke, even with max invested kits and the like with the best set ups.
One thing that is interesting is there were cases to be made for grail units being raid bosses, like Rutger and Yen'fei, they were f2p and could put in work. But now they are no longer the benchmark, but fodder to whatever is out now.
Does en guard block aoe or melt skills? Maybe they need to make a f2p unit that can give support
En Garde doesn't protect from melt damage, only things like Bolt Trap/Tower, Lightning Charm, Duo Lif/Hector Duo skill, etc.
@@tacho9427 honestly they should update it to make it counter non special out of combat damage and melt damage. Knowing intsys that’s not gonna happen and they gonna forget about en guarde and make it even more irrelevant
My Null C Disrupt 4 Legendary Corrin just tanks Duo Lyon and Ninja Sanaki without issue.
Completely agree with you. Some RUclipsrs love to constantly complain how Omnitanks "need help" but in my opinion omni-tanking is a really dumb and cancerous way to play a tactics game. Where lies the strategy in winning a match simply by owning the strongest unkilllable unit on the map? The strategy aspect went down the drain when they started loading up units with all kinds of bullshit effects all active at the same time. Remember when we had to gamble on NCD vs NFU? 🤣
as someone who both has emblem ike AND has been obliterated by his stage countless times, i really gotta say hes one of, if not my most powerful unit 😭😭
like he makes so many infernal+ stages just obsolete and i genuinely dont even have to do any planning with him, ive gained some sort of gross confidence with just slapping him out there solo and letting him ike all over his anti-ikes
i wonder when they'll release a unit that counters him 🤔
If we both have Lyon then the better player wins, if we both have Ike the better player wins. I prefer unkillable tanks, Ike is not though he is a enemy phase nuke, unless you killed an Ike for Laguz Friend or have some other out (pre-charged miracle) he takes 2 damage and then bonks you for 100+. Lyon has the benefit of being killable if you initiate but the problem there is due to his treat range you are forced into sacking a unit then warping in and killing him (not very effective because auto end turn) or using your own cav line. I for one hate calvary units and enjoy the game the most when I can actually use my +10 box of infantry units.
Then my +10 max investment Lissa gets one tapped by the nuke, canto one away, and locks the action of the nearest ally so I can't revenge kill. A lissa with D Bonus double, Laguz Friend, Def/Res pledge, Bonus double (seal), Guard echo, with double super boons gets no diffed by a zero merge zero support +Atk Duo Lyon. I can understand adapting to the meta but at least with Ike I can maneuver around him because his treat range is 3 not 5 and if I have a counter (not in AR) I can use it if I need to sack something to bait him in range.
Lyon has so mych damage reduction that he's a tank by himself, some relative new nukes can't kill him, like Duo Kagero
TACHO you can KO Emblem Ike! (At least a decent amount of them..)
Believe it or not I got an exact lethal on a +10 Ike (76 HP) in Astra season last week with Duo Lyon +0 (+Res).
Marth ring, Iceberg, quickened pulse
You MUST win the res check.
Lyon’s iceberg adds like 40-50 dmg on the first hit when Ike’s DR is the lowest.
45 burn dmg and iceberg hit for 31
My jaw dropped 😂
That BipBapBam guy seems super handsome and incredibly correct. Wait, that's me!
Heya! Nice seeing you around, I've read a bunch of your posts on Gamefaqs before!
@@tacho9427 Likewise, I remember seeing you around back in the day! Had to come give a support comment for a Gamefaqs bro 💙
I love tanking and its my favorite strat , but even I admit Ike is unbalanced. But i also think stupid melt damage before combat is also ridiculous from the likes of Lyon/Camilla etc. I dont think IS is very intelligent and seems to have this new strategy to try make us pull for the newest and best thing. Older +10 units mean almost nothing now compared to the power creep.
There is nothing making me feel more helpless than dealing with the entire team of my opponent (in arena or in raids) and then realizing the last unit is absolutely unkillable. No matter what I do, I cannot kill it. All my efforts were for nothing.
At least nukes can be killed before they do anything. And you can bait them to then take them down.
If I see an unkillable unit, like Ike, I just throw the match immediatly.
And in the end, Nukes become stronger in order to be able to kill the previously unkillable tanks.
Tanks are by far worse. I can at least player phase until they throw an emblem ike on the team. Then I have to hope I have the specific counter to that ONE unit on my team. If you're tanking you can use siehor to end turn and counter play some units.
My defense is an infantry igrene line (i never wanted to resort to them but wbyleth, vmyrh, and eike changed my stance) with tina hiding in the back. Player phase and lumera support (i have seen basically none) are the only things that have beat it (and of course part of that is thanks to vmyrh on my defense. A few teams have beaten the nukes but can't kill the tank. tanks are dumb)
I think both are bad because it inevitably leads to a cycle. If you have OP nukes, eventually the tanks will have to be OP as well, and vice versa. Also, OP tanks tend to only do their thing well and not much else, while the worst nukes usually aren't broken just because they do damage. They are broken of something else in their kit (Raging Storm, Lyon ending your turns, etc.).
And I think it really does depend on the mode. Unkillable tanks can be cancer in SD. But in AR, facing off against cavlines with ubernukes time after time is going to drain players, and far more people play AR than SD. Having a better tank helps a lot more in AR-O, which the majority of more casual players care a ton more than AR-D, and when they aren't being oppressed by ubernukes, omnitanks tend to be used more by casual players since they are typically easier to pilot than HnR or Galeforce. Like how so many people were using Brave Dimitri a year ago.
I think Ike is a bit of a special exception, though, since he is overtuned even by overpowered tank standards.
Unkillable Tanks are more toxic. Cause at least with unstoppable nukes, they tend to be weak on the enemy phase which is something you can counter, but also unstoppable nukes allow the user to play the game. The nukes allow players to be active in clearing the map, a big problem with immoveable tanks is that you simply throw them at harm's way and they clear the enemy team. You are not really playing the game with tanks because they are not active, you are clicking so that the AI moves faster and complete the map. And in Summoner duels, there is a strategy to using nukes as you try to get a hit in and not be retaliated against, with tanks you throw it out their and your opponent is strategizing on how to avoid the unit. Basically, nukes are better because they are easier to strategize against and when using one you are still playing the game, with tanks the opponent is incentivized to not play the game and the user is just waiting for the game to be over.
Did tacho miss the memo on duo robin prob the only one with a chance
She works and is a legitimate option in SD.
In AR, good luck getting the CPU to cooperate and get her effects to go off
Try her with a Rally skill instead of Repo. Her stuff still goes off when she rallies, so she can moonlight as Heidr and make a really nasty rally trap.
A nuke that can't be tanked is far worse to me. "Unkillable tanks" are generally killable with strategy, they just aren't easily one-shot. But when a nuke hits so hard you can't take it, you have to change your entire gameplay based around how that unit moves, which is very annoying.
Tanks, like Ike, are really unhealthy for EVERY game mode. SD is annoying cause nobody can kill him. Aether raids defense teambuilding is now obsolete if the attacker has Ike + a few supports that make him basically unkillable. Arena is annoying when you face an Ike that your team can't kill.
Basically the whole game gets significantly worse to play if tanks like Ike are released. However, I do believe Ike is gonna get powercept soon. We've already seen w!banner units start dropping off and that was only 4 months ago.
I'm sure all the future units are going to have built in Fatal Smoke or built in Special negation (like Lucia) from this point forward just to deal with Ike lol
I love how Ike is the medium of the conversation. Emblem Marth became every godsword’s dream come true and while Ike was meant to be the tanky counterpart, IS forgot the part where Tanks aren’t supposed to be deadly.
E Ike >>>>>> E Marth as a player phase unit point blank period. Ike is not a tank, he is indeed the omnitank/nuke archetype. Like what Ayra was in the old days, an unkillable tankbusting unit making the game unfun.
Most objectives in the game are to defeat the opponent making unkillable tanks the easy choice. A way to balance unkillable units would be to make them worthless in playerphase so you some counterplay but in the the case of emblem ike have fun tanking a Great Aether. Atleast you can playerphase Lyon and neutralise his threat
You can argue Ike has counterplay in AoE or scowl but most ranked modes restrict your teams and using a limited unit slot just to deal with a single unit is a stupid idea. You can also just tank Lyon in that case
@@yucca5458 Yeah that's the big problem. In SD and AA+ you can finesse your way around him since you can use pretty much everything at your disposal. Not really the case in AR or Arena where 90% of your team is decided for you between merges/mythics/bonus heroes
Ike is hella broken at least Lyon can be attacked close up. Idk if the sweep effect is even able to stop Ike
Ike's weapon has Null C-Disrupt built into it, making any sort of counterattack denial effect useless against him.
Have a nice day.
I agree with this. Tanks are so much worse. That is why Winter Edelgard is not as unbalanced as Winter Byleth with Null C.
She can die to Windsweep pretty easily in player phase and that is BALANCED.
You can player phase Lyon, but Ike? Is so disgusting.
Lyon dies very easily with a Galeforce team but the problem with Lyon is not the insane free damage. The problem with him is the "losing action thingy".
Without that, Lyon would be no different than Camilla but they had to make him the most toxic unit in Game and now tanks are going to get so much DR with no Piercing that making no Damage is going to be a thing now and that is so unhealthy if you have always to go for the AoE path. And wait if they use Gotoh with Ike. His only flawless now is gone.
On top of that they gave Ike Null C wich makes him so toxic.
I am so dissapointed on the way Tanks are going. It really starts to yo kill the fun of the game imo.
Tanks are more boring and can ruin more runs if you can't kill them you're done. At least with the nukes if you're lucky enough to get them in range you can win
Galeforce flying and cav nuke mages are the worst.
Brave hector + hardy fighter in 2022 proved why tanks are unhealthy
Duo Lyon is such an egregiously overtuned unit that I genuinely don't even like using him myself. Oh, his opponent just outright isn't allowed to play the game? Totally fun and fair... Note the sarcasm. I would rather deal with emblem Ike than duo Lyon, because at least Ike has a wider range of checks than Lyon does. Lyon has soured me on other nuclear power level offensive units because of how obnoxiously powerful he is.
Of course unkillable tanks are more toxic. You are put against an impossible to win challenge and are penalized for losing. Its infuriating. In the nukes case, you can simply attack on turn 1 or position your units to evade them in Enemy Phase. There may be some exceptions like Lyon and his end turn mechanic, but thats just him.
Every time I open a failed defense replay and I see some Emblem Ike in the enemy team, I press the skip button. Nothing to learn from those crappy kiddos with no brain cells and whose only input in the game is end turning...
My contempt is knowing that tanks devaluate faster than you can say "this game has gone to crap" and all their investment withers away at alarming speed.
Pre-combat damage + insane damage will always be more toxic
Yah tanks are more toxic but I don't care. After 6 long years, the faithful have been rewarded, and the game's greatest character is once again its best.
In summoner duels, unkillable tanks are way worse. In other modes, untankable nukes are probably worse - since a new tank is rarely a problem against AI. A new tank unit doesn't automatically mean you have to stop using your old nukes (sometimes you just need 1 newer nuke to kill the new tank), but a new nuke can make all your old tanks useless.
Tanks being buffed kills more units viability than anything else. At least with nukes you can actually do something with say the Askr trio or any other launch hero that impacts them a bit. Where as a tank your askr trio unit might as well not exist.
More People do play their favorites more than the meta
I like tanking in mmos and such but in a game like feh its more likely to be problematic than helpful when buffed as the goals of the games are different.
Tbh all we needed was a NullC SS or support Null C and we can take on Lyon more easily. Cuz DuoByleth, SS4 Beacon/Floe Far Saves are pretty much the way to build them. But Ike....there isnt a singular skill/ss/support they can release thats readily available to everyone that can stop him. Unless its a unitnwith Deep Wounds built in their weapon AND neutralizes bonuses at start of turn...and a Cav.
Well, there are a bunch of effects that they can start building into unit kits that would stop him. Fatal Smoke is one, and also Lucia's ability to turn off specials.
The problem with that though is that while it would be a counter to Ike, that would also end up countering the rest of the game way too hard, and for pretty much no reason too since a lot of other units aren't obnoxiously OP.
Tanks I guess. Nukes can be nuked as easily as they nuke others, so...
How was there an unkillable tank and an untankable nuke at the same time? I think the game is balance this way. People just complain because their strat keeps getting wrecked. I'm like that at some point until I realize that people just complains because they lose. What do they expect, just get a unit and win everytime? Who would lose when we can all just win. Its a cash grabbing gacha, they are not gonna give you what you want.
What a lack of empathy and reasoning.
The problem is not that they lose, the problem is that they lose TO THE SAME UNIT.
Every unit has flaws wich makes them balanced. The problem with Ike is that you can cover the flaws and Win every single Game with him.
In a Strategy Game, do you really think is very Fair just putting one tank on the middle of the map and winning to everything? What kind of Strategy is that? You don't have to do anything.
Did you see the video and the 100 reasons of why this is toxic?At least you can player phase all the nukes. With tanks like this you can not do anything.
In a Game of Damage and being hurt, the extreme possibility to not taking any kind of Damage is the most toxic thing It can happen and that is what happens with Ike and all his DR no pierceable.
On the top of that, you can use Gotoh to cover his biggest flaw, he can be blessed getting more HP and stats. And he has Null C. Goodbye to all the strats like NFU or Windsweep because they don't work.
And you and your big Dragon Stones are going to sit here calling us crybabies calling this FAIR?
Do we have to remember what happened with Fallen Edelgard?
That was not Fair.
And Tacho is not a person Who cries for losing, this is a reality a lot of players are experiencing and losing to the same unit is boring and kills all the fun.
Instead of insulting and blame people, why don't you try to understand the problem? Tacho did an incredible video explaining everything just for you to be close minded and complain about the community for no reason. If you are going to insult the playerbase, the don't comment
@@a-j-o-l-o-t-3 you talked about strategy and fail to realize the simplest strategy. Beat Ike with Ike. Its not a 100% guarantee but it has a good possibility. Also, why even play a game when you just expect to win and be salty when you lose?
Lastly, IS has a very good rock paper scissors system on their units which is hard considering there are over 1000 units (maybe 200-250 in the current meta?), means yeah you might have the rock unit now beating all the salty scissors like yourself but give it a couple of months, sometimes even just weeks, IS will release a paper unit to deal with your rock unit, then give it time again and they will make a scissor unit. That's how it is so stop whining, you cant win it all. Also, what is so bad about losing an auto defense? Maybe its hurting your ENORMOUS EGO losing an auto defense. Well s*ck it up. IS is not gonna babysit you. They are a business, not your momma.
@@pedropayapa2963 that is the most stupid thing a casual would say. I don't know why did you expect first of all everyone has one Ike. Is like the Fatal smoke example. When you have a problem in a Game like this, there are múltiple solutions and making the solution the same as the problem is not the right thing. There should be plenty of things to try, not just Ike. What if I don't have Ike? What if the other team in Aether Raids for example has someone Who makes Ike vulnerable like Igrene in Astra season? You can't use him.
I don't need to discuss this anymore. Is very clear you don't even know what the hell you are actually talking about. Because that King of thinking IS what makes you Bait to pull and there is when starts the unbalanced part. There should me more ways to beat him than just Baby Duo Robin
And losing a Defense hurts my high on AR, It really is obvious you are not competitive because any competitive player would say "a Lost Defense doesn't Matter" every player tries to reach the biggest possible. And that doesn't have to mean anything with ego.
Stop assuming things and judging other players because the only one here Who is telling other players how to act is you.
You don't even know how an Attuned Rearmed Hero works and you are going to tell ME how to play competitive? Get your unlimited fodder with one merge, genious.
When you know more than insulting and learn how this Game works, then you have the right to Talk. Before that, shut the fk off
@@pedropayapa2963 Yeah, it's clearly obvious you don't know how this Game works and you are a casual. Previous videos you did not even know how Attuned and Rearmed heroes work and you are going tobtell me and everyone how to play.
Beat Ike with Ike is the same stupid thing a casual would say with beat Fallen Edelgard with Fallen Edelgard. But don't worry, I actually don't expect after this behaviour that you understand something like that.
Stop assuming everyone has Ike, stop telling other people how to freaking play their games. This is not an ego thing but maybe you are the one Who really needs to fight for his ego. You were the only one critizicing other players Fir no reason so until you grow Up enough ti Talk with adults and learn how this games works, close your month
@@a-j-o-l-o-t-3 haha! What a meltdown. You obviously just want to win and hates to lose and you even assumed that every player wants to win (which actually contradicts yourself knowing I'm just playing for fun). That's the EGO I'm talking about. Goodluck trying to be the best. I can see clearly you wont be, I can bet my soul on that. See you on the next content maybe. When another unit was wreaking havoc for cryers like you, "oh I keep losing defense because of this unit, booohooo". Try harder baby, blame the game when you lose.🤣
beat ike with ike lmao
Easily ranged units. Toxicccc. Looks at legendary chrom meta from years ago
Tanks shouldn't have easy access to Null C-Disrupt.