In addition to lengthening the main and F slides (the tubes have a mark to know how much), you also need to extend each of the normal valves (1, 2 and 3) to match the longer A/E horn. The advantage is, you can play a piece in E as it's written, without any transposing (except that written C sounds E, of course). Or, you can remove the "H" piece, and insert the F slide completely, then also insert all the other slides (1, 2 and 3), and you get a horn in B/F#. So you can read E parts as if they were written in Eb (much easier). In this case, a C will sound F#. Note that, although we have the horn in A/Bb/B, we never actually "hear" in that tone, we still hear the pitches in E/F/F#. It's bringing back a bit of the crooks of the natural horn to modern playing. Many professionals and teachers in the XIX century, actually advocated for having the valves to complete the chromatic scale, but not replace the crooks system. One of the arguments in favor was that certain transpositions (like E and B) become awkward in an F horn and cumbersome to read. And while that's true, the practicality of not having crooks won.
I'm kind of curious how the horn stays in tune when adding or removing tubing. How have they resolved the issue of the length of valve slides? I assume you have to push those slides in when playing in F# or B and pull way out when playing in Eb or A?
@@DJKLProductions On a horn tuned to F, the main tube is about 4 meters long. The second tuning slide is about 25 cm long to drop the horn into the key of E. If we insert a 50 cm length of tubing into the main tuning to drop the instrument into Eb, then the second tuning slide must be almost 30 cm to drop it to D. That means when playing a main tuning of Eb, the second slide will need to be pulled out an additional 2.5 cm to get the extra 5 cm of length. The first tuning slide would need to be pulled out almost 5 cm to make it 10 cm longer. The third tuning slide would need to be pulled out about 7 cm, about 2.75 inches! Most tuning slides do not have that much room for adjustment, especially if using an A-445 tuning system that requires the slides to be pulled out to play at A-440 by default. I'm just wondering if they made the made the adjustable sections of the valve slides longer than a normal horn. The hand can do only so much fine tuning without adversely affecting the timbre.
@@cdmcfall I also had reached the same conclusion as you did, and it's quite puzzling, because in his website, the additional extension for the valve slides is not as much as I would've thought (check the "maintenance" section), which is comparable to your numbers.
@@cdmcfall Note that the slides only lower/raise the horn by half step. So you can have B/Gb, Bb/F, A/E (not Eb as in your response). I have created a spreadsheet with numbers based on Lucien Thevet's Method for Horn and the formulas in "Mathematical Brass" paper (not exact but enough for an approximation). 1. Horn in F is 3.79m. This is the only value I took from Thevet's methode. The length of the rest of the tubing is calculated using the formula in the paper. I've checked that the values are close to the ones provided by Thevet (I could not use them directly, because it had very strange results, I think there are some mistakes in these values). I took some measures in my Alex 103 and match well enough. 2. Horn in E is 4.02m 3. When extending the main and F slides to E (there are marks on the tubes), the horn is extended by approx. 22.56cm 4. The 2nd slide for bringing down a horn in F to E is the same, 22.56cm. This is the normal 2nd slide in the F horn. 5. The 2nd slide for bringing down a horn in E to Eb is 23.91cm. But we already have a slide that is 22.56cm long, so we have to take it out by 0.67cm.
@@georgH Yeah, I don't know why I typed Eb. I knew what I meant lol. Based on speed of sound (343 m/s) and A-440 tuning, the tube length for F should be 3.93 m (at least for a cylindrical tube: (343 m/s) / (87.31 Hz) = 3.928 m). I'm pretty sure the 3.79 m is a product of intentionally manufacturing horns sharp (one can always pull out). A-455 tuning would indeed put the F at 3.8 m, plus the fact that sound moves faster in the humid inside of the horn. Thanks for the info. I'm actually working now on building a triple horn from scratch, but I've designed some custom fittings (similar to compression fittings in plumbing) and thumb screws so that the entire tail section and lead pipe can be removed and replaced. For chamber music, fit a slightly narrower lead pipe and a narrow throated, smaller bell. For big parts, attach a wide-throated, nickel silver tail and flare. Make it completely modular. the cylindrical valve and tuning sections would be the same bore regardless, but the taper and throat size could be adjusted based on demands of the performance. Theoretically, you could attach the various lead pipes and bells to any cylindrical tubing, so you could swap out the rotary valve assembly for a pumpenvalve assembly and now you have a Vienna horn. Or replace it with a coil of appropriate sized tubing to make a natural horn. It's been a fun project so far, though I have yet to make it past the CAD phase (I do have a PEX version for proof of concept). I'd love to compare your spreadsheet to mine. I may upload it to Google Drive. You can put in a tuning for A, and it will spit out tube lengths for all keys from A0 to C8, plus the theoretical wavelength of each harmonic to determine the most in-tune fingerings. The conical shape does weird things to the harmonics, BTW. It doesn't behave as one would expect from a closed cylindrical tube. And I'll definitely be buying that book!
I’ve never played it with the slides in or out that much, but I imagine it is like playing natural horn crooked in different keys. You get a different harmonic series, and as a player adjust to the difference in playing qualities along with any intonation oddities that may arise with such changes. Hope that helps!
It looks like it would be cumbersome to play, but it isn't, you can play perfectly normal, the extra length of the slide does not bother at all, it stays away from your face.
At the beginning, transition from an Alex 103 was a bit surprising, I wasn't a fan of the sound, and I tended to "overdo" everything. After two months of adaptation, going back to the Alex, feels very weird! Now I think I prefer my sound on the Schmid, and I really prefer how it plays.
@@donaldspaulding6973 I am going to have to say my 8D with McCracken custom parts (LP and Bell). I have since sold the Yamaha 671, and I’m currently in the process of selling my modified Paxman Descant 43X.
@@robertlevine1093 Thanks! I had one of George's pipes on my 8D, (431xxx) and found out after that he makes a "small and large" for 8D. Which one do you have?
In addition to lengthening the main and F slides (the tubes have a mark to know how much), you also need to extend each of the normal valves (1, 2 and 3) to match the longer A/E horn.
The advantage is, you can play a piece in E as it's written, without any transposing (except that written C sounds E, of course).
Or, you can remove the "H" piece, and insert the F slide completely, then also insert all the other slides (1, 2 and 3), and you get a horn in B/F#. So you can read E parts as if they were written in Eb (much easier). In this case, a C will sound F#.
Note that, although we have the horn in A/Bb/B, we never actually "hear" in that tone, we still hear the pitches in E/F/F#.
It's bringing back a bit of the crooks of the natural horn to modern playing. Many professionals and teachers in the XIX century, actually advocated for having the valves to complete the chromatic scale, but not replace the crooks system. One of the arguments in favor was that certain transpositions (like E and B) become awkward in an F horn and cumbersome to read. And while that's true, the practicality of not having crooks won.
Sir, which one produces a brighter and louder sound between the 103 the Englebert. And which one is easier to play in the higher register
great sound! what mouthpiece did you use on this horn?
What mouthpiece do you use for this french horn?
@@doko1900 I use a Laskey 75F, regardless of what horn I’m playing. It’s been my absolute go to for the past 12 years now.
Ok,thank you.
nice Mozart ;)
I'm kind of curious how the horn stays in tune when adding or removing tubing. How have they resolved the issue of the length of valve slides? I assume you have to push those slides in when playing in F# or B and pull way out when playing in Eb or A?
@@DJKLProductions On a horn tuned to F, the main tube is about 4 meters long. The second tuning slide is about 25 cm long to drop the horn into the key of E. If we insert a 50 cm length of tubing into the main tuning to drop the instrument into Eb, then the second tuning slide must be almost 30 cm to drop it to D. That means when playing a main tuning of Eb, the second slide will need to be pulled out an additional 2.5 cm to get the extra 5 cm of length. The first tuning slide would need to be pulled out almost 5 cm to make it 10 cm longer. The third tuning slide would need to be pulled out about 7 cm, about 2.75 inches! Most tuning slides do not have that much room for adjustment, especially if using an A-445 tuning system that requires the slides to be pulled out to play at A-440 by default. I'm just wondering if they made the made the adjustable sections of the valve slides longer than a normal horn. The hand can do only so much fine tuning without adversely affecting the timbre.
@@cdmcfall I also had reached the same conclusion as you did, and it's quite puzzling, because in his website, the additional extension for the valve slides is not as much as I would've thought (check the "maintenance" section), which is comparable to your numbers.
@@cdmcfall Note that the slides only lower/raise the horn by half step. So you can have B/Gb, Bb/F, A/E (not Eb as in your response).
I have created a spreadsheet with numbers based on Lucien Thevet's Method for Horn and the formulas in "Mathematical Brass" paper (not exact but enough for an approximation).
1. Horn in F is 3.79m. This is the only value I took from Thevet's methode. The length of the rest of the tubing is calculated using the formula in the paper. I've checked that the values are close to the ones provided by Thevet (I could not use them directly, because it had very strange results, I think there are some mistakes in these values). I took some measures in my Alex 103 and match well enough.
2. Horn in E is 4.02m
3. When extending the main and F slides to E (there are marks on the tubes), the horn is extended by approx. 22.56cm
4. The 2nd slide for bringing down a horn in F to E is the same, 22.56cm. This is the normal 2nd slide in the F horn.
5. The 2nd slide for bringing down a horn in E to Eb is 23.91cm. But we already have a slide that is 22.56cm long, so we have to take it out by 0.67cm.
@@cdmcfall YT does not allow pasting the link of the spreadsheet, sorry
@@georgH Yeah, I don't know why I typed Eb. I knew what I meant lol. Based on speed of sound (343 m/s) and A-440 tuning, the tube length for F should be 3.93 m (at least for a cylindrical tube: (343 m/s) / (87.31 Hz) = 3.928 m). I'm pretty sure the 3.79 m is a product of intentionally manufacturing horns sharp (one can always pull out). A-455 tuning would indeed put the F at 3.8 m, plus the fact that sound moves faster in the humid inside of the horn. Thanks for the info. I'm actually working now on building a triple horn from scratch, but I've designed some custom fittings (similar to compression fittings in plumbing) and thumb screws so that the entire tail section and lead pipe can be removed and replaced. For chamber music, fit a slightly narrower lead pipe and a narrow throated, smaller bell. For big parts, attach a wide-throated, nickel silver tail and flare. Make it completely modular. the cylindrical valve and tuning sections would be the same bore regardless, but the taper and throat size could be adjusted based on demands of the performance. Theoretically, you could attach the various lead pipes and bells to any cylindrical tubing, so you could swap out the rotary valve assembly for a pumpenvalve assembly and now you have a Vienna horn. Or replace it with a coil of appropriate sized tubing to make a natural horn. It's been a fun project so far, though I have yet to make it past the CAD phase (I do have a PEX version for proof of concept).
I'd love to compare your spreadsheet to mine. I may upload it to Google Drive. You can put in a tuning for A, and it will spit out tube lengths for all keys from A0 to C8, plus the theoretical wavelength of each harmonic to determine the most in-tune fingerings. The conical shape does weird things to the harmonics, BTW. It doesn't behave as one would expect from a closed cylindrical tube. And I'll definitely be buying that book!
how do you play it when the tuning slide is that far out. Does it get in the way?
I’ve never played it with the slides in or out that much, but I imagine it is like playing natural horn crooked in different keys. You get a different harmonic series, and as a player adjust to the difference in playing qualities along with any intonation oddities that may arise with such changes. Hope that helps!
It looks like it would be cumbersome to play, but it isn't, you can play perfectly normal, the extra length of the slide does not bother at all, it stays away from your face.
Rob. Is it easier to play than alex 103? Less resistance of blow?
I found the Schmid easier to play. Personal preference.
At the beginning, transition from an Alex 103 was a bit surprising, I wasn't a fan of the sound, and I tended to "overdo" everything.
After two months of adaptation, going back to the Alex, feels very weird! Now I think I prefer my sound on the Schmid, and I really prefer how it plays.
It's modeled after a Knopf, not a geyer.
Yes I am aware, I was trying to compare it to a horn I’ve done on the channel that was similar to it in appearance. Thanks!
@@robertlevine1093 I'm curious what is your favorite horn so far.
@@donaldspaulding6973 I am going to have to say my 8D with McCracken custom parts (LP and Bell). I have since sold the Yamaha 671, and I’m currently in the process of selling my modified Paxman Descant 43X.
@@robertlevine1093 Thanks! I had one of George's pipes on my 8D, (431xxx) and found out after that he makes a "small and large" for 8D. Which one do you have?
@@donaldspaulding6973 I actually was the person who purchased the McCracken pipe for an 8D off of you in 2017! Haha