This theory would be completely ignored if it were not for Penrose's vast stature in physics. Penrose is 85 years old and I hope he hangs around for another 10 years to help this theory stick around.
You bet, Penrose is a Mountain and his work with Stuart Hameroff is a beautiful combination of skills and resources towards this ground breaking cross disciplinary subject.
The core texts of Hinduism known as the Upanishads hold the view that consciousness is fundamental and the ground of being of everything. They were written over 5000 years ago. You as this consciousness is immortal and can never die and no suffering or sin touches it. The world appears like a dream in this primordial existence-consciousness-bliss. It is your real nature. The Hindus call it Brahman. I find Advaita Vedanta or nonduality amazing.
@@dare-er7sw We can all imagine and wish for things. Proving that it actually describes reality is the hard part... Not to say that there isn't a point in spirituality and philosophical metaphysics. But a "what if" is seldom followed by a "therefore"
Stuart is always worth a listen, as is Jeffrey. I hope they bring the Penrose Institute to Northern California, close to me in Monterey Bay area. His work on Alzheimer's might be the first practical application of Orch-OR, the music of the mind, restoring resonance of mind and quality of life to a great many people. For the past 10 years we have been educated by Stuart and his colleagues on the mechanics of consciousness and, for me, the quantum effects of Orch-OR open a whole universe of meaning - it opens us to the inside game of the universe - the non-local that is everywhere and nowhere, full of immeasurable content stored in a Zero-point field of holographic media, outside of time and space and accessed through the quantum interaction, controlled by personal resonances. To paraphrase Neil Armstrong - One small step for man and a giant leap forward for mankind into the physics of our spiritual reality.
@@elijahmelendez9864 Yeah, but because it wasn't scientifically quantified it stayed in the realm of philosophy and humans continued being messed up primates.
Well I can see that it's hard to build trust if the learned expertise doesn't completely overlap with the field of study. The optimum would be to be open to any informed opinion no matter the credentials, but since there is a finite amount of time I can't listen to the philosophical musings or even scientific ideas of every uneducated person I come across. There is a spectrum between no trust at all (uneducated person talking about quantum physics woo) and maximum trust (Hawking talking about black holes). I'd say on this spectrum Hameroff as an anesthesiologist talking about fundamental neuro science and even quantum physics is an 8/10 on my patented Maffen Trust Scale, and I can understand that some people would rather listen to specialized experts talk about this stuff. In the end it just comes down to how much time you want to invest sifting through falsehoods to get to the one big gold nugget idea, which I would count Hameroff's and Penrose's ideas on consciousness as.
I don't know if Jeffrey ever gets to read these but I have to say Jeffrey is one of the most genuine people on the internet. I can't watch the intro to a New Thinking Allowed episode without smiling doesn't matter how I was feeling before.
Infinite Radio agreed! Especially if you were already a fan of the old show. First time I watched the new launch I was very gratified to hear the same old synthesizer theme!
infinite radio- Jeffrey truly does come across one's perceptions as loving, kind, and genuine. Even the gentle intro sounds, the colorful pendants, but most of all it is his abundant happiness that seems to spill from his facial expressions and way in which he speaks while continuing to smile:)
You can tell Jeremy enjoys interviewing this guy. Probably because coming from his accepted scientific background (Stuarts') theory doesn't discredit any para-psychological study or testament. I loved it when he said "Until we conclude how consciousness works in the brain we cannot conclude how consciousness works outside of the brain" - that was a bit of a mindgasm for me.
Freewill is fractal, in other words, our choices exist within some range depending on the resolution or level of description. Also the choice you make now will affect all future choices.
Consciousness and it's non dual connected nature was first discussed in the Upanishads and vedas, the ancient texts of Hinduism believed to be written around 3000 BC in ancient India..
Hats off to Hameroff and Penrose for such a daring theory of consciousness. I'm no fan of mainstream theories that suggest consciousness is just a type of computation but I'm still can't see how ORCH OR solves the hard problem? While should the collapse of the quantum wave function be associated with conscious experience?
I think the quantum effect, the collapse is a connection to a non-local consciousness, one that transcends space and time and persists in what McTaggart calls the Zero Point Field. The hard problem will remain until we can prove the existence of a non-local personal consciouness. That would validate a lot of psychic, parapsychological and past life empirical data and cases.
He argues that the collapse of the wave function produces a conscious moment. So consciousness is not a continuous stream as it would appear, but a steady stream of conscious "moments" occurring fast enough to give the feeling or appearance of consciousness.
Don't you know, according to Wikipedia...s' editors, the scientific establishment, and Sam Harris that psychic, paranormal and past life stuff is all bullshit for which there is no evidence and if you say there is, you are deluded, naive and weak. One of the fastest ways to trigger foaming-at-the-mouth rage in RUclips comment sections is to support the existence of such phenomena.
Stuart mentions Dean Radin’s experiments demonstrating retrocausal affects; where skin changes were observed to have occurred in response to future events (just prior to being shown disturbing images). Stuart also uses the example of a person’s quick response to a question posed prior to their brain’s observable neuronal processing of the question posed. Seems to demonstrate nonlocality of consciousness (to say nothing of it not being limited by space-time constraints) perhaps including, for example, Radin’s computer randomly generating the various types of images (benign or startling).
Roger Penrose is working on a theory that presents space/time as a non-essential aspect of the universe and that the universe does not necessarily expand and contract, rather it sort of forgets space/time and returns to its essential state. That might help explain split particle collapse despite great distance.... the universe does not experinece "distance" or time, that is a construct of experiential beings. It would also be a pretty good first explanation of parapsychological events, precognition, ESP, past lives experiences et all....
Re. backward time effects, I've often wondered whether something of the kind is privileged in individuals, often referred to as autistic, who can draw complex cityscapes taking many days or weeks, from a superficial glance. Such things are often referred to as "photographic memory", whatever that means, but it seems more likely that they have direct access to the original image in some way.
@@borderlands6606 Google John Cramers' TIQM... he says where t is squared a negative value means the math still works....it is a backwards arrow in time...either we believe the math or we dont we cant selectively pay attention to the math not with weird stuff like the double slit experiment
'Retro causal' free will seems a further elaboration of ideas about feedback and feedback to me still appears to explain how consciousness innately steers itself? Simultaneously It projects or predicts a reality and responds to its projections.
Holy Fck! I assumed mishlove was not in the spotlight anymore because I've only seen the older videos.. This blew my mind before the conversation even started. Love this guys conversation/interview style and tone
i was in a psyche lecture once during my course, and it came into the end of the lecture and the idea of consciousness and space-time came up, and man you wouldnt believe it, this lecture was only in the last few years, as such the orch OR have had been out for like 2 decades and guess what it wasnt even mentioned., you would think that they would have known about it. but i guess you cant expect too much in those cases sometimes.haha
Many people would say why would this all matter but I find this Topic to be Linked to the number one question. The feeling I was a being before my brain became fully developed. A connection to. This reinforces my belief in a Creator.c];-)
You ought to have a discussion about fractal time, causality chains along tree like decision structures. Suskind has a good talk about this on YT. Obviously, a 2D depiction of it is a toy model. But a mutli-dimensional approach might help explain both short time scale retrocausal effects seen in consciousness as well as larger time scale effects like the Mandela Effect.
Just some speculation on my part as well as some broad brush strokes but I don’t think it would be too presumptious to think that there must be some threshold point for the quantum effect that is in alignment with the leading neuro computational theories and space-time theory as well. Since leading physicists of our time have proposed a raw time construct that is non-linear in nature (but currently we must exist in the linear construct to in order to experience the passage of time) ..... it could allude to and explain a kind of backward causation effect that allows one to remember the future -- deja-vu effect (?) .......even if only for some magnitude of nanoseconds(?) or milliseconds(?) at this present stage but never - the - less, confirming such an existing process. Extending this thinking even further out and speaking hypothetically, if this whole process could be enhanced and realized through a greater understanding of both computational/algorithmic theory and quantum theory, then it would seem to indicate a lack of “free will” but that disturbing thought can be mitigated if we can entertain the notion of shifting to different space-time lines with every conscious decision and thought and opening new realities...... .... Furthermore, if our own consciousness is part of a bigger whole then we may operate as a collective consciousness but we are more or less at this stage of human evolution operating in a format that is more or less restrictive and contained in our respective selves (as opposed to the collective) until we somehow integrate AI enhancements ( which we are already doing) Extending this even further, we might evolve beyond such hybrid forms to a much more advanced pure energy life forms that encompass all these processes but in a more efficient and streamlined manner. It seems we have already begun down that path. Seems to lend new meaning to the notion that "Everything happens for a reason and there are no coincidences". Any thoughts on this?
What about the theory that we as Souls are projecting a tiny portion of ourselves into this dimension but the majority of our Soul's are in a higher dimension?
Since hearing about the ORCH OR theory for the first time (right here on this channel, by the way), I've often wondered if DNA offers any chance of quantum resonance effects that could contribute to, amplify, or perhaps interfere with the microtubular mechanism. Base pairs also contain pi clouds and are arranged in continuous strings measuring, in total and per cell, at meters, so I would think that resonance would have some kind of effect. Has Dr. Hameroff commented on that (as I presume I'm not the first one to think of it). Thanks for what you do, Dr. Mishlove!
You might take a look at Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance where he submits theories and evidence of morpho-genetic fields impacting (activating/deactivating) genetic instructions toward repetition of form. I think this also might have spiritual implication when we bring in quantum dimensions/fields/storage that could be activated by Orch-OR and how form can exist without matter (ghost out of the machine!)
What is of the most interest to me is the potential practical applications of this theory. Anyone who is seriously on the spiritual path knows how it requires a _massive_ amount of time and energy to progress. It really is insane how hard it can be. So much meditation, prayer, superhuman discipline. (I've been there, I've lived it, because I suffered a mental breakdown on psychedelics followed by addiction and I had to turn to the spiritual path to survive.) If you have a family and a career (which I have thus far been denied by the demands of my illnesses) too bad, so sad. This is ridiculous. But we are advancing extremely rapidly in neuroscience, and if we can 'tap into' the music of the universe, we might be able to spontaneously awaken people, or at least rapidly accelerate the process, and therefore enlighten the world and solve most of our problems in a matter of decades.
Is it the Orch Or theory or Dr. Giulio Tononi's Integrated Information Theory that is correct, I will have to review these two theories and compare them with what I know as a psychologist and have a long think about it.
Catherine Sidoti how did your research go? Im a little fuzzy on integrated information theory but from what I do recall it seems like Orch Or and integrated information could perhaps be combined?
@@SelcraigClimbs well they can because IIT isn't realy defined or testable unlike the orch or wich has mechanism and some experiments done and has 6/20 predictions proven correct an 14 more to go
Are the ideas of Platonic solids and zero entropy residue from the instant of the big bang still part of the Orch OR theory of consciousness?Thanks to all for such a fine interview. Gary
So... is objective reduction effectively rapidly occuring moments of self observation? Essentially the wave function collapsing in a connected cycle of self measurement? Because that's what it seems like...
Yes, but who is the observer? As I noted above, humans seem to have a conscious observer, perhaps quantum connected to the zero point field outside of space and time..... I sort of like that idea. It has the potential for transcendence.
No obeserver's needed here, according to this fascinating theory the microtubules wave function collapses in an orchestrated way simply due to inevitable quantum gravity effects. Another fascinating aspect of it is therefore also the elegant integration of the quantum mechanics with the general relativity theory and gravity.
Are there theories that might allow for the reversal of an anesthesia overdose? Is such damage reversible? I have a friend who was unfortunate enough for this to happen.
Reality is likely a mathematical function being calculated. It's probably purely random, and deterministic, as shown in Pascal's triangle. All possible combinations of matter and energy are covered in some timeline of the multiverse. Like with genetics, our past is shared, and our future diverges (and recombines!). Thus our personal awareness of the future is unpredictable on a detailed level, but overall all of our possible futures happen. As for what consciousness is, it's super simple: **Consciousness in general gets defined as the ability to model reality internally, at some number of dimensions.** Levels of consciousness increase with the number of dimensions that can be modeled: 0D - preconsciousness - simple matter "models" only itself, it's internal state is it's internal state (1:1 modeling). It's not really conscious, but it is "aware" of itself in a sense, at the moment, so it's sort of the fetal stage of consciousness. 1D - physical consciousness - a single celled organism (and maybe plants?) models itself, now, plus a future state, or an outside state. It can have a goal state in mind, essentially, or be aware that "there's something I like/dislike out there". Current, linear, computers are at this level as well I think. They have a current state and a goal state, and try to move from point A to point B. 2D - emotional consciousness - a simple brain and similar things can model both its own current and goal state along with a current and goal state of another individual (animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.) and see where they both intersect for more complex, non-linear, problem solving. 3D - intellectual consciousness - a social animal has the ability to model things logically, by looking at a whole group of individual perspectives (current state to goal state) starting with the self, and moving outward from there in an "objective" space where problems can be solved by triangulating the intersection point of the three different paths. 4D - philosophical consciousness - a mature human brain can model all four dimensions of time and space for a model that can problem solve for "me, you, and everyone else, now and into the future" all in one impressive go (neuroscience, and some funny math, suggests this starts coming online around age 40, when the two sides of the prefrontal cortex start functioning in parallel instead of only one at a time).
Nice improvisation and indeed, headed towards "super simple", but please, even the smartest folks who attend conferences in this area (many of which i've attended) know better than to over-sell any particular theory or even definition of consciousness at this point; our ignorance is just too vast (which is why most serious scientists roll their eyes at OrchOR).
We do need to define things before we can really talk about them usefully. If we don't even know what we're talking about, then we can't make any progress. Which is why people think consciousness is "hard". That's because they have no idea what they mean when they use the term. So I'm offering a definition that works well for me, and helps answer many, if not all, of the questions about "consciousness" that I hear people asking. As for my theory of what the universe is generated by, it's open to change, as all actual science is, as we collect more diverse sources of data.
I am likely showing my ignorance here but I wonder if Dr. Hammeroff's explanation of how the sonic frequencies of the microtubules are the core of how Anesthetics operate could be applied to the virility of Microtubules in viruses. Could frequency manipulation be used to cure viral infectious diseases like HIV by disrupting the specific frequencies within infected tubules ?
Can anyone answer the question's if Microtubules & that Paramecium reside in the part of the brain, the Pineal Gland & if so, has anybody done research on such matter?
I am not very knowledgeable upon such subjects as this and most of it goes over my head yet I was wondering the opinion of the latest stories of brain tissue ( I believe rat), being grown in the lab. Apparently there are some indications of activity that they feel is a precursor to consciousness.
Apparently brain-computer interface based on functional near infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS)-measures brain hemodynamic responses associated with neuronal activity. Would it be possible to use fNIRS to observe microtubular activity as well? As powerful as ORCH OR is, on so many levels, what a breakthrough it would be if we could communicate with states of awareness such as that of NDE patients. We'd become a true Universe Citizens. Did you plane to use fNIRS or any form of BCI in your future studies Dr. Hameroff?
The backward time effect correlated with looking at images could be confirmed via use of meaningful visual signals to communicate with states such as NDE, would it not?
My intuition antenna goes up in this conversation. What is it that experiences an NDE? Where is consciousness when these happen? What excites me about Orch-OR is the quantum connection it makes. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin described the onset of self-awareness, when human beings became aware that they were aware as a "change of state" in natural evolution. He says this evolutionary step has been understated and overlooked by science but to him it was the point at which human beings became immortal. I have related this to a quantum connection to the zero point field where all universal memory resides, and once the connection is made - as an entanglement, it cannot be reversed or undone - we are forever connected to the zero point field where all our lives, actions and memories persist. As a side note, Carl Jung noted that once your life is over, you can no longer learn new stuff, that is why part of you returns - as Peter NOvak posits we have two souls, one that knows and contains all previous lives and one that enters into here and now. When our here and now dies, it becomes part of our "lodge" of souls, replete with memory, personality and experience but it can never return, only the here and now consciousness returns with no memory of past lives, with some exceptions. BTW time and space might not be intrinsic to this universe. Penrose is proposing something about the universe "forgetting" expansion. That might explain the instantaneous split particle collapse, no matter the distance. The universe might not recognize distance the way the human mind does.
Thanks, Chardin is one of my faves. After some discussions with pantheistic professor Christian de Quincey I am re-thinking the entanglement part... if consciousness is not physical it cannot entangle to a part of the physical universe, even a dimension or field property like the Zero Point Field. But Chardin presents the Hominization process, self reflective consciousness, as life turning into "life-squared" and humanity getting intimations of immortality to reference Wordsworth. Chardin was prophetic in his anticipation of the atmosphere of human thought (Noosphere) and we see it realized in the world wide web. Like Chardin, my intuition points to evolving individuation. We are such a young species by comparison to other species on Earth, I just hope we can attain wisdom needed to survive this epoch. Hameroff is always worth a listen. He looks for scientific answers and something is being discovered here with coherent light and resonance of the microtubulins. I try to track where this is heading and hope to find resonant signatures interacting with DNA that identify the consciousness we call an individual. Still a far piece ahead of us. Stuart is one guiding light along the way, but the path is long and obscured and surely there are surprises to come.
If anesthesia disrupts the quantum information stored in the microtubles causing unconsciousness, then why would you speculate that this quantum state could exist beyond the destruction of the microtubles at death? Surely what anesthesia demonstrates is that consciousness can't withstand any purturbation of the microtuble structure.
I’m kind of concerned about this being called a theory. Has it been tested? How can I prove that it’s true? I admit, I’m not a scientist, and I’m certainly no expert, but I think we need to seriously do more research before giving this the same status as the theory or relativity or gravity.
Very interesting ideas. I don't agree with using quantum mechanics or either version of Relativity to describe reality. These theories aren't based on demonstrable reality, despite all the educational diplomas to the contrary. These ideas act like a perception filter that selects only the bits of information that reinforce the unexamined assumptions that lie at the foundation of these incorrect theories. A lot of it is circularly reasoned. That criticism aside, I think that the ORCH OR theory is something worth considering.
Why do you say relativity and QM are not demonstrable? Neither is considered a final theory of nature, and they have both made testable hypotheses that have panned out (such as time dilation and entanglement).
No worries I like you and your works!!! 😅 Even though I am an IT guy using LLMs 😂 computation is indeed not the solution to what people try to achieve with AI. But we are curious untill procent wrong, human nature
I thought D ~ Wave has done a beautiful job creating The Quantum Puter, however nothing will be as good as the Human brain, if you believe the Brain is one Big Quantum Computer!! Just thinking out loud!!
audience participation: having an effect backwards in time when you were recording this is prescient... I have upon occasion felt this and it is extemely weird !!!!!!
+aphysique Unlike other countries the USA is loaded with academics who oppose all things psi believing it is not "rational" despite thousands of studies from physicists and many other researchers doing very rigorous work. Even the very religious are more open minded. It is not empirical evidence it is far more.
OrchOR failed in 2015. Meyer Overton correlation ended up being lipid melt/phase shift. The proposed CaMKII "encoded" local data path also can't maintain while rotating down the MT due to handedness breaking. Dimers do not superpose at all. They are one of the structures (monomer/dimer/MT) which emit an electromagnetic flux which acts a braided phasor (images provided at TSC 2018). Also CaMKII is likely tending to phosphorylation only, surface energies follow phosphate backbones with spiraling down other structures (DNA). I followed OrchOR for years...Loved it too. But it's dead. It did a great job gathering correlates. The brain though, is not a quantum computer. Turns out it is a frequency based (Fourier phase of firing - to - rate code...likely FIT/GML) organ.
Shoot! I watched this video because I have been trying to understand the basic mechanism of his theory for the last ten years and the conversation went so far down the rabbit hole I again had no idea what he was talking about. Why doesn't this guy work with an actual real animator so funding organizations can actually see what he is suggesting.
Nonsense. Consciousness is demonstrated by Jung. Education in anesthesiology or today's (psyche absence) psychology qualifies a man to preach about consciousness.
OrchOR is dead. Why doesn't Hameroff retract. Virtually every point he makes has been explained by research to be otherwise, even down to his attempt to use Libet to confirm backward time effects. It's just a grab basket of correlations that didn't turn out. There is no exploitation of qubits in microtubules for cognition/consciousness.
I do understand that critics target some flawed parts of the ORCH OR theory, but the truth is that the critics do not come up with a better alternative. The whole notion that consciousness is an “illusion, manifestation, emergence” of the material brain is both on a philosophical and modern scientific level just an appalling statement without proper argumentative foundations. At least Hammeroff and Penrose use daring scientific methods to make the leap in understanding phenomenal consciousness. I do not see Harris, Dennet or Tegmark even try to come up with a proper theory without some flimsy word solving the phenomenal gap.
allthough he is right, he is only partly right, the physical level yes, but the bases of consciousness lies not in the brain, see it like this; the light of the sun is reflected by the moon, the sun being the basis and the moon the brain. its the blueprint of creation, upon which all matter is build, that is consciousness , its like an orchestra . we may see that there are many different levels as there are many moons and planets,
Stuarts method of arguing his case is to talk fast and sound smart. But there is absolutely no evidence in what he says and he seems full of scientific assumptions
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
"Until we know how conciousness occurs in the brain, we cannot exclude it occurring out of the brain"
BRILLIANT!
This theory would be completely ignored if it were not for Penrose's vast stature in physics. Penrose is 85 years old and I hope he hangs around for another 10 years to help this theory stick around.
You bet, Penrose is a Mountain and his work with Stuart Hameroff is a beautiful combination of skills and resources towards this ground breaking cross disciplinary subject.
The core texts of Hinduism known as the Upanishads hold the view that consciousness is fundamental and the ground of being of everything. They were written over 5000 years ago. You as this consciousness is immortal and can never die and no suffering or sin touches it. The world appears like a dream in this primordial existence-consciousness-bliss. It is your real nature. The Hindus call it Brahman. I find Advaita Vedanta or nonduality amazing.
@@dare-er7sw let's not jump to conclusions. We are talking about empirically based theories here, not religion.
@@dare-er7sw We can all imagine and wish for things. Proving that it actually describes reality is the hard part... Not to say that there isn't a point in spirituality and philosophical metaphysics. But a "what if" is seldom followed by a "therefore"
True but there are also some big points that have held true in the theory. Requires much more attention and research.
Stuart is always worth a listen, as is Jeffrey. I hope they bring the Penrose Institute to Northern California, close to me in Monterey Bay area. His work on Alzheimer's might be the first practical application of Orch-OR, the music of the mind, restoring resonance of mind and quality of life to a great many people. For the past 10 years we have been educated by Stuart and his colleagues on the mechanics of consciousness and, for me, the quantum effects of Orch-OR open a whole universe of meaning - it opens us to the inside game of the universe - the non-local that is everywhere and nowhere, full of immeasurable content stored in a Zero-point field of holographic media, outside of time and space and accessed through the quantum interaction, controlled by personal resonances. To paraphrase Neil Armstrong - One small step for man and a giant leap forward for mankind into the physics of our spiritual reality.
you need to read Egyptian and Chinese philosophy theve said that shit for thousands of years just different words
@@elijahmelendez9864 Yeah, but because it wasn't scientifically quantified it stayed in the realm of philosophy and humans continued being messed up primates.
I dont know why people would have trouble with an anesthesiologist having some ideas on consciousness.
@1995 GetJiggyWitIt "Dogmatic pseudo sceptics" That is a brilliant phrase, I'm going to have to steal it from you
Well I can see that it's hard to build trust if the learned expertise doesn't completely overlap with the field of study. The optimum would be to be open to any informed opinion no matter the credentials, but since there is a finite amount of time I can't listen to the philosophical musings or even scientific ideas of every uneducated person I come across. There is a spectrum between no trust at all (uneducated person talking about quantum physics woo) and maximum trust (Hawking talking about black holes). I'd say on this spectrum Hameroff as an anesthesiologist talking about fundamental neuro science and even quantum physics is an 8/10 on my patented Maffen Trust Scale, and I can understand that some people would rather listen to specialized experts talk about this stuff. In the end it just comes down to how much time you want to invest sifting through falsehoods to get to the one big gold nugget idea, which I would count Hameroff's and Penrose's ideas on consciousness as.
I think it makes a lot of sense.
This was awesome !! I Love this channel. What a great time to be alive.
Isn't it funny. The main problem of why we're conscious is trying to be solved by conscious beings.
Best interviews / podcast style show on RUclips. Thanks for making all of this available Jeffrey. Wonderful work.
I don't know if Jeffrey ever gets to read these but I have to say Jeffrey is one of the most genuine people on the internet. I can't watch the intro to a New Thinking Allowed episode without smiling doesn't matter how I was feeling before.
Infinite Radio agreed! Especially if you were already a fan of the old show. First time I watched the new launch I was very gratified to hear the same old synthesizer theme!
infinite radio- Jeffrey truly does come across one's perceptions as loving, kind, and genuine. Even the gentle intro sounds, the colorful pendants, but most of all it is his abundant happiness that seems to spill from his facial expressions and way in which he speaks while continuing to smile:)
Infinite Radio, I agree 100%!
Infinite Radio Try Tom Campbell.
Tom's pretty genuine, but he doesn't have an awesome theme song.
Hameroff the best when it comes to functional conciouness , thank you jeff
You can tell Jeremy enjoys interviewing this guy. Probably because coming from his accepted scientific background (Stuarts') theory doesn't discredit any para-psychological study or testament. I loved it when he said "Until we conclude how consciousness works in the brain we cannot conclude how consciousness works outside of the brain" - that was a bit of a mindgasm for me.
That sounded like his poor defence towards his "proven" theory.
Why would you assume it does/can work outside the brain?
Freewill is fractal, in other words, our choices exist within some range depending on the resolution or level of description. Also the choice you make now will affect all future choices.
Could you please explain what you mean by "our choices exist within some range depending on the resolution or level of description"?
Consciousness and it's non dual connected nature was first discussed in the Upanishads and vedas, the ancient texts of Hinduism believed to be written around 3000 BC in ancient India..
Hats off to Hameroff and Penrose for such a daring theory of consciousness. I'm no fan of mainstream theories that suggest consciousness is just a type of computation but I'm still can't see how ORCH OR solves the hard problem? While should the collapse of the quantum wave function be associated with conscious experience?
I think the quantum effect, the collapse is a connection to a non-local consciousness, one that transcends space and time and persists in what McTaggart calls the Zero Point Field. The hard problem will remain until we can prove the existence of a non-local personal consciouness. That would validate a lot of psychic, parapsychological and past life empirical data and cases.
He argues that the collapse of the wave function produces a conscious moment. So consciousness is not a continuous stream as it would appear, but a steady stream of conscious "moments" occurring fast enough to give the feeling or appearance of consciousness.
Don't you know, according to Wikipedia...s' editors, the scientific establishment, and Sam Harris that psychic, paranormal and past life stuff is all bullshit for which there is no evidence and if you say there is, you are deluded, naive and weak. One of the fastest ways to trigger foaming-at-the-mouth rage in RUclips comment sections is to support the existence of such phenomena.
valar Wikipedia is rubbish.
Stuart Hameroff is more intelligent than me.
This was a nice birthday present. Thanks Jeffrey and Stuart!
Stuart mentions Dean Radin’s experiments demonstrating retrocausal affects; where skin changes were observed to have occurred in response to future events (just prior to being shown disturbing images). Stuart also uses the example of a person’s quick response to a question posed prior to their brain’s observable neuronal processing of the question posed. Seems to demonstrate nonlocality of consciousness (to say nothing of it not being limited by space-time constraints) perhaps including, for example, Radin’s computer randomly generating the various types of images (benign or startling).
Roger Penrose is working on a theory that presents space/time as a non-essential aspect of the universe and that the universe does not necessarily expand and contract, rather it sort of forgets space/time and returns to its essential state. That might help explain split particle collapse despite great distance.... the universe does not experinece "distance" or time, that is a construct of experiential beings. It would also be a pretty good first explanation of parapsychological events, precognition, ESP, past lives experiences et all....
Re. backward time effects, I've often wondered whether something of the kind is privileged in individuals, often referred to as autistic, who can draw complex cityscapes taking many days or weeks, from a superficial glance. Such things are often referred to as "photographic memory", whatever that means, but it seems more likely that they have direct access to the original image in some way.
@@borderlands6606 Google John Cramers' TIQM... he says where t is squared a negative value means the math still works....it is a backwards arrow in time...either we believe the math or we dont we cant selectively pay attention to the math not with weird stuff like the double slit experiment
'Retro causal' free will seems a further elaboration of ideas about feedback and feedback to me still appears to explain how consciousness innately steers itself? Simultaneously It projects or predicts a reality and responds to its projections.
Holy Fck! I assumed mishlove was not in the spotlight anymore because I've only seen the older videos.. This blew my mind before the conversation even started. Love this guys conversation/interview style and tone
What’re the outcomes of the ultrasound brain stimulation studies. Any updates?
i was in a psyche lecture once during my course, and it came into the end of the lecture and the idea of consciousness and space-time came up, and man you wouldnt believe it, this lecture was only in the last few years, as such the orch OR have had been out for like 2 decades and guess what it wasnt even mentioned., you would think that they would have known about it. but i guess you cant expect too much in those cases sometimes.haha
Many people would say why would this all matter but I find this Topic to be Linked to the number one question. The feeling I was a being before my brain became fully developed. A connection to. This reinforces my belief in a Creator.c];-)
Isnt there a study that demonstrates music can decrease the amount of antisesisa needed , and how does that relate to his therapy?
What about Dan Winter's work? Would this ORC OR theory coincide and fit with Dan Winter's work?
You ought to have a discussion about fractal time, causality chains along tree like decision structures. Suskind has a good talk about this on YT. Obviously, a 2D depiction of it is a toy model. But a mutli-dimensional approach might help explain both short time scale retrocausal effects seen in consciousness as well as larger time scale effects like the Mandela Effect.
Something with the name "ORCH OR" cannot be right. It is the sound of seals mating.
It is an Acronym.
Loll
Just some speculation on my part as well as some broad brush strokes but I don’t think it would be too presumptious to think that there must be some threshold point for the quantum effect that is in alignment with the leading neuro computational theories and space-time theory as well.
Since leading physicists of our time have proposed a raw time construct that is non-linear in nature (but currently we must exist in the linear construct to in order to experience the passage of time)
..... it could allude to and explain a kind of backward causation effect that allows one to remember the future -- deja-vu effect (?) .......even if only for some magnitude of nanoseconds(?) or milliseconds(?) at this present stage but never - the - less, confirming such an existing process. Extending this thinking even further out and speaking hypothetically, if this whole process could be enhanced and realized through a greater understanding of both computational/algorithmic theory and quantum theory, then it would seem to indicate a lack of “free will” but that disturbing thought can be mitigated if we can entertain the notion of shifting to different space-time lines with every conscious decision and thought and opening new realities......
.... Furthermore, if our own consciousness is part of a bigger whole then we may operate as a collective consciousness but we are more or less at this stage of human evolution operating in a format that is more or less restrictive and contained in our respective selves (as opposed to the collective) until we somehow integrate AI enhancements ( which we are already doing) Extending this even further, we might evolve beyond such hybrid forms to a much more advanced pure energy life forms that encompass all these processes but in a more efficient and streamlined manner. It seems we have already begun down that path. Seems to lend new meaning to the notion that "Everything happens for a reason and there are no coincidences". Any thoughts on this?
Another gem. We think your great. Thank you!
great interview! thanks you!
What about the theory that we as Souls are projecting a tiny portion of ourselves into this dimension but the majority of our Soul's are in a higher dimension?
Since hearing about the ORCH OR theory for the first time (right here on this channel, by the way), I've often wondered if DNA offers any chance of quantum resonance effects that could contribute to, amplify, or perhaps interfere with the microtubular mechanism. Base pairs also contain pi clouds and are arranged in continuous strings measuring, in total and per cell, at meters, so I would think that resonance would have some kind of effect. Has Dr. Hameroff commented on that (as I presume I'm not the first one to think of it). Thanks for what you do, Dr. Mishlove!
You might take a look at Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance where he submits theories and evidence of morpho-genetic fields impacting (activating/deactivating) genetic instructions toward repetition of form. I think this also might have spiritual implication when we bring in quantum dimensions/fields/storage that could be activated by Orch-OR and how form can exist without matter (ghost out of the machine!)
What is of the most interest to me is the potential practical applications of this theory.
Anyone who is seriously on the spiritual path knows how it requires a _massive_ amount of time and energy to progress. It really is insane how hard it can be. So much meditation, prayer, superhuman discipline. (I've been there, I've lived it, because I suffered a mental breakdown on psychedelics followed by addiction and I had to turn to the spiritual path to survive.) If you have a family and a career (which I have thus far been denied by the demands of my illnesses) too bad, so sad.
This is ridiculous. But we are advancing extremely rapidly in neuroscience, and if we can 'tap into' the music of the universe, we might be able to spontaneously awaken people, or at least rapidly accelerate the process, and therefore enlighten the world and solve most of our problems in a matter of decades.
well said valar
Wonderful!
Is it the Orch Or theory or Dr. Giulio Tononi's Integrated Information Theory that is correct, I will have to review these two theories and compare them with what I know as a psychologist and have a long think about it.
Catherine Sidoti how did your research go? Im a little fuzzy on integrated information theory but from what I do recall it seems like Orch Or and integrated information could perhaps be combined?
@@SelcraigClimbs well they can because IIT isn't realy defined or testable unlike the orch or wich has mechanism and some experiments done and has 6/20 predictions proven correct an 14 more to go
Are the ideas of Platonic solids and zero entropy residue from the instant of the big bang still part of the Orch OR theory of consciousness?Thanks to all for such a fine interview. Gary
One of my fave interviewees.
So... is objective reduction effectively rapidly occuring moments of self observation? Essentially the wave function collapsing in a connected cycle of self measurement? Because that's what it seems like...
Yes, but who is the observer? As I noted above, humans seem to have a conscious observer, perhaps quantum connected to the zero point field outside of space and time..... I sort of like that idea. It has the potential for transcendence.
No obeserver's needed here, according to this fascinating theory the microtubules wave function collapses in an orchestrated way simply due to inevitable quantum gravity effects. Another fascinating aspect of it is therefore also the elegant integration of the quantum mechanics with the general relativity theory and gravity.
Are there theories that might allow for the reversal of an anesthesia overdose? Is such damage reversible? I have a friend who was unfortunate enough for this to happen.
"Good Vibrations"
great one.
Reality is likely a mathematical function being calculated. It's probably purely random, and deterministic, as shown in Pascal's triangle. All possible combinations of matter and energy are covered in some timeline of the multiverse. Like with genetics, our past is shared, and our future diverges (and recombines!). Thus our personal awareness of the future is unpredictable on a detailed level, but overall all of our possible futures happen.
As for what consciousness is, it's super simple:
**Consciousness in general gets defined as the ability to model reality internally, at some number of dimensions.**
Levels of consciousness increase with the number of dimensions that can be modeled:
0D - preconsciousness - simple matter "models" only itself, it's internal state is it's internal state (1:1 modeling). It's not really conscious, but it is "aware" of itself in a sense, at the moment, so it's sort of the fetal stage of consciousness.
1D - physical consciousness - a single celled organism (and maybe plants?) models itself, now, plus a future state, or an outside state. It can have a goal state in mind, essentially, or be aware that "there's something I like/dislike out there". Current, linear, computers are at this level as well I think. They have a current state and a goal state, and try to move from point A to point B.
2D - emotional consciousness - a simple brain and similar things can model both its own current and goal state along with a current and goal state of another individual (animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.) and see where they both intersect for more complex, non-linear, problem solving.
3D - intellectual consciousness - a social animal has the ability to model things logically, by looking at a whole group of individual perspectives (current state to goal state) starting with the self, and moving outward from there in an "objective" space where problems can be solved by triangulating the intersection point of the three different paths.
4D - philosophical consciousness - a mature human brain can model all four dimensions of time and space for a model that can problem solve for "me, you, and everyone else, now and into the future" all in one impressive go (neuroscience, and some funny math, suggests this starts coming online around age 40, when the two sides of the prefrontal cortex start functioning in parallel instead of only one at a time).
Nice improvisation and indeed, headed towards "super simple", but please, even the smartest folks who attend conferences in this area (many of which i've attended) know better than to over-sell any particular theory or even definition of consciousness at this point; our ignorance is just too vast (which is why most serious scientists roll their eyes at OrchOR).
We do need to define things before we can really talk about them usefully. If we don't even know what we're talking about, then we can't make any progress. Which is why people think consciousness is "hard". That's because they have no idea what they mean when they use the term. So I'm offering a definition that works well for me, and helps answer many, if not all, of the questions about "consciousness" that I hear people asking.
As for my theory of what the universe is generated by, it's open to change, as all actual science is, as we collect more diverse sources of data.
Hameroff should study effects of DMT as this is said to give users experience of cosmic consciousness i.e. non-local .
I am likely showing my ignorance here but I wonder if Dr. Hammeroff's explanation of how the sonic frequencies of the microtubules are the core of how Anesthetics operate could be applied to the virility of Microtubules in viruses. Could frequency manipulation be used to cure viral infectious diseases like HIV by disrupting the specific frequencies within infected tubules ?
Rife Machine? Possibly...
love this channel x
Can anyone answer the question's if Microtubules & that Paramecium reside in the part of the brain, the Pineal Gland & if so, has anybody done research on such matter?
Lol
24:20
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I am not very knowledgeable upon such subjects as this and most of it goes over my head yet I was wondering the opinion of the latest stories of brain tissue ( I believe rat), being grown in the lab. Apparently there are some indications of activity that they feel is a precursor to consciousness.
Raising the paper in a University is one of the quickest ways to get Physics students excited, and Physics graduates angry.
5:42 no, it’s 10^17
Apparently brain-computer interface based on functional near infrared spectroscopy (fNIRS)-measures brain hemodynamic responses associated with neuronal activity. Would it be possible to use fNIRS to observe microtubular activity as well? As powerful as ORCH OR is, on so many levels, what a breakthrough it would be if we could communicate with states of awareness such as that of NDE patients. We'd become a true Universe Citizens. Did you plane to use fNIRS or any form of BCI in your future studies Dr. Hameroff?
The backward time effect correlated with looking at images could be confirmed via use of meaningful visual signals to communicate with states such as NDE, would it not?
My intuition antenna goes up in this conversation. What is it that experiences an NDE? Where is consciousness when these happen? What excites me about Orch-OR is the quantum connection it makes. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin described the onset of self-awareness, when human beings became aware that they were aware as a "change of state" in natural evolution. He says this evolutionary step has been understated and overlooked by science but to him it was the point at which human beings became immortal. I have related this to a quantum connection to the zero point field where all universal memory resides, and once the connection is made - as an entanglement, it cannot be reversed or undone - we are forever connected to the zero point field where all our lives, actions and memories persist. As a side note, Carl Jung noted that once your life is over, you can no longer learn new stuff, that is why part of you returns - as Peter NOvak posits we have two souls, one that knows and contains all previous lives and one that enters into here and now. When our here and now dies, it becomes part of our "lodge" of souls, replete with memory, personality and experience but it can never return, only the here and now consciousness returns with no memory of past lives, with some exceptions. BTW time and space might not be intrinsic to this universe. Penrose is proposing something about the universe "forgetting" expansion. That might explain the instantaneous split particle collapse, no matter the distance. The universe might not recognize distance the way the human mind does.
@@Sam_Utah Anyone who references Teilhard in this conversation gets a tip of the hat from me. :)
Thanks, Chardin is one of my faves. After some discussions with pantheistic professor Christian de Quincey I am re-thinking the entanglement part... if consciousness is not physical it cannot entangle to a part of the physical universe, even a dimension or field property like the Zero Point Field. But Chardin presents the Hominization process, self reflective consciousness, as life turning into "life-squared" and humanity getting intimations of immortality to reference Wordsworth. Chardin was prophetic in his anticipation of the atmosphere of human thought (Noosphere) and we see it realized in the world wide web. Like Chardin, my intuition points to evolving individuation. We are such a young species by comparison to other species on Earth, I just hope we can attain wisdom needed to survive this epoch. Hameroff is always worth a listen. He looks for scientific answers and something is being discovered here with coherent light and resonance of the microtubulins. I try to track where this is heading and hope to find resonant signatures interacting with DNA that identify the consciousness we call an individual. Still a far piece ahead of us. Stuart is one guiding light along the way, but the path is long and obscured and surely there are surprises to come.
Ghosts are intrinsic to quantum mechanics. All you need is a quantum field that is a life form.
"All you need"
Decoherence doesn’t destroy quantum effects, it just destroys interference.
If anesthesia disrupts the quantum information stored in the microtubles causing unconsciousness, then why would you speculate that this quantum state could exist beyond the destruction of the microtubles at death? Surely what anesthesia demonstrates is that consciousness can't withstand any purturbation of the microtuble structure.
Because there are near death experiences in cases of anesthesia which occur and they provide verifiable evidence.....
its all coming together now
If Jeffrey Mishlove grew a goatee, he could pose as Stuart Hameroff
amazing
I’m kind of concerned about this being called a theory.
Has it been tested? How can I prove that it’s true? I admit, I’m not a scientist, and I’m certainly no expert, but I think we need to seriously do more research before giving this the same status as the theory or relativity or gravity.
Give me some references. This is way over my head.
Same here
Very interesting ideas. I don't agree with using quantum mechanics or either version of Relativity to describe reality. These theories aren't based on demonstrable reality, despite all the educational diplomas to the contrary. These ideas act like a perception filter that selects only the bits of information that reinforce the unexamined assumptions that lie at the foundation of these incorrect theories. A lot of it is circularly reasoned. That criticism aside, I think that the ORCH OR theory is something worth considering.
Why do you say relativity and QM are not demonstrable? Neither is considered a final theory of nature, and they have both made testable hypotheses that have panned out (such as time dilation and entanglement).
No worries I like you and your works!!! 😅 Even though I am an IT guy using LLMs 😂 computation is indeed not the solution to what people try to achieve with AI. But we are curious untill procent wrong, human nature
Go Bears
I thought D ~ Wave has done a beautiful job creating The Quantum Puter, however nothing will be as good as the Human brain, if you believe the Brain is one Big Quantum Computer!! Just thinking out loud!!
I think Kurzweil's working on Nanobots to interface the brain with computers.
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2014 Conference of the Society of Consciousness Studies
ruclips.net/video/zui3H4A51cY/видео.html
yeah its big brain time
audience participation: having an effect backwards in time when you were recording this is prescient... I have upon occasion felt this and it is extemely weird !!!!!!
Bald men talking something goid
What exactly us he trying to say. Its all lalala to me. Be simple one sentence explaining what hes implying please
@@Luke-pc5rb interesting...thank you!@! Apparently my brain did not receive it lol k.i.s.s.. stands for keep it simply stupid lol then all recieve lol
@@Luke-pc5rb Well-articulated! Thank you!
Why do you think they are not paying attention to the empirical evidence of Psi abilities, mainstream science, bewildering and a shame!
+aphysique Unlike other countries the USA is loaded with academics who oppose all things psi believing it is not "rational" despite thousands of studies from physicists and many other researchers doing very rigorous work. Even the very religious are more open minded. It is not empirical evidence it is far more.
OrchOR failed in 2015. Meyer Overton correlation ended up being lipid melt/phase shift. The proposed CaMKII "encoded" local data path also can't maintain while rotating down the MT due to handedness breaking. Dimers do not superpose at all. They are one of the structures (monomer/dimer/MT) which emit an electromagnetic flux which acts a braided phasor (images provided at TSC 2018). Also CaMKII is likely tending to phosphorylation only, surface energies follow phosphate backbones with spiraling down other structures (DNA). I followed OrchOR for years...Loved it too. But it's dead. It did a great job gathering correlates. The brain though, is not a quantum computer. Turns out it is a frequency based (Fourier phase of firing - to - rate code...likely FIT/GML) organ.
Alan Alldredge links ?
Try again dude, Matthew Fisher and his new project QuBrain is telling us that our brains have excelent potential for being the best quantum computer
@@viniciusbueno2160 I wish they would post an update on that. It's not everyday that Stephen Hawkings tutor tells you there's an afterlife.
Hard disagree 🎉🎉🎉🎉
Love from Israel. - Aviv Hoffman.
The brain is an organ that supports the concept of conscoiusness it is not the singular influence on consciousness. Neorons (LOL)
Looks a bit like they like a hypothesis and they looking for reasons for it to be right. Like a confirmation bias.
It's not about MATTER
Shoot! I watched this video because I have been trying to understand the basic mechanism of his theory for the last ten years and the conversation went so far down the rabbit hole I again had no idea what he was talking about. Why doesn't this guy work with an actual real animator so funding organizations can actually see what he is suggesting.
This talk sounded inconsistently to me
Regardless of how they spin it...the AI experiment is still limited to the speed of light.
Consciousness isn't....
That's pretty profound.
Nonsense. Consciousness is demonstrated by Jung. Education in anesthesiology or today's (psyche absence) psychology qualifies a man to preach about consciousness.
OrchOR is dead. Why doesn't Hameroff retract. Virtually every point he makes has been explained by research to be otherwise, even down to his attempt to use Libet to confirm backward time effects. It's just a grab basket of correlations that didn't turn out. There is no exploitation of qubits in microtubules for cognition/consciousness.
I do understand that critics target some flawed parts of the ORCH OR theory, but the truth is that the critics do not come up with a better alternative. The whole notion that consciousness is an “illusion, manifestation, emergence” of the material brain is both on a philosophical and modern scientific level just an appalling statement without proper argumentative foundations.
At least Hammeroff and Penrose use daring scientific methods to make the leap in understanding phenomenal consciousness. I do not see Harris, Dennet or Tegmark even try to come up with a proper theory without some flimsy word solving the phenomenal gap.
allthough he is right, he is only partly right, the physical level yes, but the bases of consciousness lies not in the brain, see it like this; the light of the sun is reflected by the moon, the sun being the basis and the moon the brain. its the blueprint of creation, upon which all matter is build, that is consciousness , its like an orchestra . we may see that there are many different levels as there are many moons and planets,
Stolen from Hindu Vedas
Which part of the Vedas exactly?
Stuarts method of arguing his case is to talk fast and sound smart. But there is absolutely no evidence in what he says and he seems full of scientific assumptions
Hameroff: kurtzel can’t do basic math
childish nonsense
Says the bot 😂😂😂