Stuart Hameroff: Anesthesia, Consciousness, Bohm and Penrose (EmQM17)
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2020
- Stuart Hameroff (University of Arizona, Tucson, USA) about "Anesthesia, Consciousness, Bohm and Penrose" at the Emergent Quantum Mechanics 2017 (EmQM17) Symposium sponsored by the Fetzer Franklin Fund at the University of London (UK).
EmQM17 was the 4th International Symposium about Quantum Mechanics based on a "Deeper Level Theory".
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So great to see Stuart keeping up this good work. I'm pretty convinced that he and Penrose are on to something.
So do I. If they are right, and I think they are, it would explain a lot of strange phenomena regarding non localized consciousness as well as solving a lot of other problems regarding the 'hard problem'. The problem for many that don't care for this explanation is that this makes the brain far more complicated than scientists had previously thought. I think a lot of resistance to Orch OR is due for a desire to find a much simpler explanation of the brain as well as those who are motivated to try and create consciousness in machines.
@@fredflintstone8048 100%. The difficult truth for neurological theories of consciousness is that they have demonstrated only very shallow scale phenomena. Of course, the neurons are like the detonators that fire to enact movement and thought, but there is very little sign of consciousness at that level. Unless we are supposed to believe that the matter is beyond scientific study we must be looking for another mechanism, and I think Orch-OR is it.
Recent experience with LLMs shows us the really very poor state of AI, where there is (once again) no sign of anything like consciousness or self awareness in evidence. Once the arguments for Orch-OR have been laid out, the acolyte of that theory might well predict that no consciousness of any meaningful sort is possible without there being a quantum element to it, if not the presence of actual biological structures like microtubules.
This is awkward not only because it makes everyone else look silly for their resistance to the idea, but because it invokes the grand bête noir of science - that there may be more to human consciousness and experience than can be explained by localized phenomena in individual brains.
If there is a recursive temporal element to consciousness then that strongly implies that the standard arrow of time assumptions are (in the case of brains at least) not wholly realized.
As you say, Orch-OR does stand to shed significant light on the precise and very testable mechanisms of thought, but the delicious irony here is that scientists are using the mechanisms of Orch-OR to thwart progress in elucidation regarding Orch-OR!
Having thoughts about the mechanisms of thought, and using human consciousness to examine and test human consciousness, is a bit like using a telescope to see itself.
But without understanding the instrument that we use to form ideas and accept inspiration we cannot hope to know what limitations we are up against, or what opportunities there might be.
Time will tell, because of all the current theories of mind Orch-OR is the only one I know of which is falsifiable - an aspect about which Max Tegmark (to use just one example) is currently unadvisedly smug.
Especially latest evidence of proto consciousness in molecular dandritic structures
My microtubules could not sync until I lowered the playback frequency to 0.75, then it blew me away. This is the first in depth explanation of this hypothesis I have come across and, like many others, am both deeply impressed and yet puzzled by the deafening silence from the wider science community.
Heheh, it's because they're scared and don't want to be associated with mysticism. (There are some forms of quantum mysticism you can find here on RUclips for instance which are basically meditational visualization at best and bs pseudoscience at worst, even though I'm guilty of getting pretty into that sort've thing myself) :P
That said, I commend hameroff and penrose for trying to tackle this issue and thinking about these things like this publically. I really think they're onto a lot here.
You might find Justin Riddle's quantum consciousness series here on RUclips really fascinating. They actually taught a class on this at a prestigious college, (I forget which rn and I'm on my slow phone) and they're basically teaching the same class here on RUclips for free for anyone who wants to check it out. Hameroff was even a special guest on one of the "episodes."
Stuart is a gem
A real insightful, informative man! True Gem..
I hope he lives at least as long as Roger has so far, we could use another 15 years of him.
If you use your quantum brain to think about it...he makes alot of sense.
Amazing
I think at 613 THz, therefore I am.
At last, something to put on a T shirt!
😸❤ heheheheh
This theory has withstood endless attacks for 20 years, and it is the most testable and therefore most scientific theory of consciousness. You wouldn't know that from popular culture, as most physicists still loathe it, but it isn't going anywhere.
Why would physicists loathe a theory based on materialism? That's what you mean right?
most people with faith don't like their religion questioned
There is not one word in this presentation that could be considered a theory of consciousness. At best, the work discussed here notes a correlation between neurobiology and neurochemistry and apparent consciousness. In the world today, there are a grand total of zero theories of consciousness.
Jack Tuszynski, PhD, recently conducted an experiment with a computational model of a microtubule. His team simulated shining a light into a microtubule, sort of like a photon sending an exciton through a plant structure. If the light lasted long enough before being emitted-a fraction of a second was enough-it would indicate quantum coherence.
Specifically, Tuszynski’s team simulated sending tryptophan fluorescence, or ultraviolet light photons that are not visible to the human eye, into microtubules. After conducting the experiment 22 times, Tuszynski reported that the excitations from the tryptophan created quantum reactions that lasted up to five nanoseconds. That is thousands of times longer than some had expected coherence to last in a microtubule. It’s also more than long enough to perform the biological functions required.
Cool experiment - lets go!
Then how reincarnated person remember his past life; please note that re incarnation is proved
to whom, by whom?
Are the microtubules operating within a completely self-contained environment, or are the microtubules interacting with external fields akin to an antenna/transmitter? The area of effect that classical brain waves can reach might be too limited to suggest such external interactions, but we might surmise that space-time is not the end-all/be-all of the dimensions in which quantum wave collapse is operating. Also, arrays of quantum mechanical structures in the brain could easily exceed the sensitivities of classical radio technology. I just think there are limits, even for a quantum antenna.
The real trick would be to establish that consciousness can survive and migrate outside of a living brain, without succumbing to entropic effects. That would open the doors to all the woo-woo stuff that humans have experienced but never been able to rationalize.
@@7even285 can the trombone be antenna? or the air be conscious?
Outside the framework of brain the consciousness cannot exist same as music cannot be played without instruments.
Dementia, Psychosis, Multiple personalities disorder and list goes on. This is basic proof of the inseparability of body and mind.
I believe reincarnation/remembering past lives has something to do with gene expression... let me clarify...
Each embryo will have his/her genes being expressed differently to create a unique individual.
Even identical twins do not have the same fingerprints.
So, for each person, their microtubule configuration, chemical environment, bio-electrical field etc in the brain/body will be different allowing them to access their own, unique quantum computational frequencies with their own memories, understanding etc.
However, identical twins have a strong connection to each other and at many instances have felt the death of their twin indicating an inter-connectivity between their concsiousnesses.
Given the above, what I believe happens for those who can recall past lives is that there is some similarity in gene expression of the dead person and the living person.
This allows the living person to access a part of a pre-existing quantum computational frequencies and recall the information of a person who has lived before.
Because of the way we process that information, it seems it is that they are remembering their own past memories.
In a way, it could be, the living person is actually continuing to use the similar quantum computational frequencies as the dead person. ie: reincarnation
I believe when science has advanced enough, we should be able to identify specific gene expression scenarios that allows for this to happen and how quantum information can persist.
Schizophrenia and Dissociative identity disorder might also be explained as something in their genetic composition that allows them to access multiple quantum computational frequency ranges ? instead of having one or one set as is most common.
we can explain conscious awareness in its most simple form has electrical activity in the brain that is aware of its own electrical potential. Consciousness is always in the forefront of the creative process therefore each individual is able to look back in time in all directions from ‘the moment of now’ in the center of their reference frame at the beauty of the stars. This personalization of space and time gives us the concept of ‘mind’ with each one of us having our own unique personal view of the Universe with an uncertain ∆×∆pᵪ≥h/4π probabilistic future. The flow of Time ∆E ∆t ≥ h/2π as a process of continuous energy exchange and our consciousness as a continuous stream of unbroken ever-changing flow of ideas, feelings dreams hopes perceptions and emotions are interlinked.
1. This was a rushed presentation! Too much info..
2. Hameroff is a valuable scientist / doctor with organized thought, an open mind and an eye for eastern philosophy and culture, determined/ stubborn, and a fast thinker. Together with Penrose and Anriban they contribute a remarkable perspective. When I first started thinking about consciousness, I didn't find it reasonable that most of schools of thought didn't care about fundamental physics etc.
3. Hameroff's and Penrose's Orch OR does really start from the cutting edge science/physics, and theorizes a possible model of universe with Consciousness. It is educated guessing and humanly-biased divergent-thinking from that point, as every theory, but I am sure those 2 great minds have some good reasons to form it that way. It would be amazing that the rest 14 predictions they setted will be tested before those guys die.
4. Yes, Tegmark was mistaken, but in his defence he took the numbers it from a Penrose paper. However, this idea should move forward and this was a barrier. It deserves to be multiply attacked and tested; thus be chiseled, reformed and updated, or even canceled by valid argumentation. This process will bring us closer to the truth {sic}.
Stuart is great but his ideas come so fast I get lost.
My problem with Tegmark is he retracted his criticism but is still a smug prick when it comes to this theory, at least he was in his debate with Hameroff. (Otherwise he's pretty affable.)
Mahirap mapag laruan Ng Buhay k sa kakahiyan dahilan Sayo LAHAT Kaya nakikila bansa mo Ako sa buhay ko NASA kakahiyan Ng buhay ko
so this is why zapping the brain helps with mental issues.
Resets it and wipes out bad memories. (I think - lol)
Ang skit db sakin Ang KAKahiyan sakanila Ang gin hawa Ng Buhay sakin Ang PAG KASIRA Ng Buhay. Ko at kakahiyan
If consciouness is related to quantum phenomena, we probably shouldnt give AI access to a quantum computer.
So i get lost at free will. I think free will has a logic problem more than a substrate problem unless someone can better explain it to me.
No, you are correct. It’s not even a problem because it doesn’t make sense
What do you mean by "free will" precisely? And then we can try to describe the problems
This guy making me unconscious....... ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
what the hell is he talking about?
He's turning scientific facts into hot air. If you want to learn about consciousness trust modern science, biology, - over philosophizing on scant bits of evidence. For an introduction, search out lectures by Mark Solms and Antonio Damasio for a sober review of the consciousness mystery.
At 2:30 Stuart says definitively, that under anaesthesia the brain is still active but the consciousness is gone. This is not proper scientific knowledge, a flawed understanding of brain function/activity, aka the mind and consciousness.
MIND and CONSCIOUSNESS are two completely different things, that must be differentiated against and simply cannot be confused one for the other.
They are not synonyms of each other.
This seems to be the culprit, the chief conspirator, the main misconception in current western studies on mind and consciousness.
Under anaesthesia, there is induced reductiion of brain activity, feeling, sensation and cognitive functionality. The absence of cognition is not evidence of absence of consciousness. 🤔hmmm
Au contraire, it is only in consciousness that we can appreciate the activity or non activity of the brain, or anything else for that matter.
To use computer analogy, it is akin to turning on the sleep button on a computer, thereby inducing sleep. Therefore, it would be an imcorrect inference that the Wifi field, consciousness 'has gone'. Rather the brain has been put to sleep.
Sorry, that is simply not the case.
Consciousness is the Unified field in UFT.
I conclude by saying that consciousness is the prima materia, the first cause, the Light within which everything exists, can ever be known and can ever be experiencEd.
CONSCIOUSNESS IS.
Tat Tvam Asi.
this is my mentor right here, Mr David himself
@@whitehat756 All i know is that I AM..a student first, a teacher second and the subject as well..the trinity of the Self.👊 U generously self confer that honorific title of 'sir' to yourself Serghio..eh ??...do u know what the english word ' sir ' stands for ??..
S = Servant/ Slave.
I = I.
R= Remain.
Really ??.. whose servant/slave ?? .. and to what ??
Are you a slave to your thoughts ??..🤔
One of my most eager Albanian students has that name Serghio too. Strange but he also added that british title sir to his name, till i shed light on that. He dropped it soon after..lol..Anyway ...
What's with this unhealthy obcession with british titlehood of sir ??
@@whitehat756 Teacher of what? Spirituality?
@@emmanuelpil BS
i agree, to say "consciousness is gone" during anaesthesia is wrong, because consciousness cannot be found in the brain, nor can it be measured. if anything, anaesthesia disrupts the signals which allows consciousness to flow through the brain and as we know many people have out of body and near death experiences during anaesthesia, which is even more evidence that brain is not producer of consciousness.
Amazing