EVERYBODY missed the point of Gattaca (1997) │ A Video Essay on Doing Wrong for the Right Reasons
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- At the end of Andrew Niccol’s 1997 science fiction film ‘Gattaca’ a mission to Titan is doomed to fail because the lead astronaut has a heart condition and is already beyond his life expectancy. It’s reasonable to think that this is still a triumphant conclusion, however, the surface level of this film already shows Vincent’s (Ethan Hawke) questionable behaviour, such as assuming Jerome’s (Jude Law) identity, befriending Irene (Uma Thurman) under false pretences, and pummelling a peace officer. Going beyond this, the subtext shows that Director Josef (Gore Vidal) falsely confessed to protect the mission to Titan, which places Vincent firmly as the ‘villain’ of this story.
Props to the audiovisual artist Samuel Francis Johnson for the incredible tracks used as this video's ambient soundtrack: Cosmic Intro Idle long (ID: 118332), Clair De Lune Debussy Dreamy Remix (ID: 8044), and Deep Drone Atmosphere (ID: 11759).
Props also to also to Kevin MacLeod’s track: "Peace of Mind" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License creativecommons...
Thank you for watching!
I love the film and enjoy your take on it.
My only argument is your point on Anton being an out of shape cop. The films makes note of his obsession over that swimming loss as a child as he's seen practicing swimming laps in a late scene in the movie.
Otherwise, very good take.
You're absolutely right, Anton was definitely obsessed over the loss, but my reasoning was that Vincent had no way of knowing of this so the response I gave him during the swimming contest was akin to Director Josef's jab at Anton: _"Occasionally we've been forced to accept candidates with minor shortcomings, but nothing that would prohibit someone from working in a field such as 'law enforcement' for example."_ i.e. the training at Gattaca is incomparable to anything Anton's ever done.
That said, my decision was definitely flawed as it's led to this ambiguity, so I'm pinning your comment to try and fix this 😬 Thank you for the awesome feedback! 😃
It's amazing that this movie made in 1997 is better than anything Hollywood can produce today. If you think about it, it's just a murder mystery, what really makes it a great movie is the World-building.
I couldn't agree more! 👏
There were films made in the 1910's that are still better than many modern films. Folks aren't learning from the masters - especially studios
@@troublewithweebles It seems like most people making films today are actively shunning the masters. Last year, I watched a thriller/noir 'No Sudden Move' (2021) and they used a 'period appropriate' anamorphic lens which created distracting visual distortions throughout the film. So, instead of embracing the masters' techniques in plot/story/pacing/acting/editing, they embraced the masters' technical limitations and recreated a _technical hiccup_ as if it's a positive feature 😅
Nah, fuck the System, Vincent is definetely a hero.
Yep, I mean, that's also a valid conclusion 🤝☕😅
*Vincent:* What do you get when you cross a 'genetically second-class citizen' with a society that abandons him and treats him like trash!?
*Mission Director:* I think we're done with your jokes, that's it.
*Vincent:* You get what you f-g deserve!
**Vincent proceeds to mercilessly pummel him with a keyboard**
Yep, exactly my thoughts. I'd rather die pursuing my dreams, all the better if I can break the unfair system and those smug faces
Thats the way I saw it as well. Who's to say what anyone can achieve.
He's a hero to the Doctors kid. Big fan
@@jacksonblack9408 The Mission Director must have been really unpopular because even the doctor's kid hated that guy 😅
I agree about him being an anti-hero, but my take was that genetics, talent, skill, etc is only part of the equation. There is also will and perseverence. It seems that is what is missing in this future society.
Agreed! 👏
will and perserverance is also genetic. EVERYTHING freakin is. You're nothing but your genes
@@kaalvoetpiet3442- then what makes identical twins different from one another?
This movie has no heroes or villains, just people
Well said! 👏
There's something incredibly satisfying and intriguing about movies that are sophisticated to the point of allowing space for viewers to discuss the finer points of character motivations and their deep-rooted self doubts and insecurities. This is one of those, almost minimalist in presentation but ripe with possibilities. An underrated jewel.
I agree completely 👏 The art of minimalism seems lost nowadays. It reminds me of my favorite Frasier quote: "Ah, but if _'less is more'_ then just think how much more _'more'_ will be."
You make some interesting points, but I still think you're wrong. Jerome could live through the mission, and even if he doesn't he has a lot to offer insofar as knowledge. Even a perfect genetically engineered person could die on the mission to Titan. It is never stated that if he dies the entire mission fails. Also, selecting "good genes" is playing Russian roulette with the future; you never know which genes might be useful for unforeseen challenges.
*"It is never stated that if he dies the entire mission fails."* You're right, but I'd argue that considering how everyone in the film treats genetics and evaluating people's potential with such certainty they probably wouldn't have _sufficient_ contingencies in place, but this is just my opinion. We should probably meet halfway and agree that _the mission leader's sudden expiration certainly wouldn't contribute to the mission's success_ 😅
*"Also, selecting "good genes" is playing Russian roulette with the future; you never know which genes might be useful for unforeseen challenges."* I agree with this _in theory,_ but I don't have strong opinions on this subject and ultimately cut out my brief overview of gene therapy because it's not the focus of this video.
*"Jerome could live through the mission."* This is incorrect for multiple reasons: first, Vincent's episode on the treadmill shows that he has heart issues. Second, Vincent later tells Irene that _"I don't have twenty or thirty years left in (my heart); mine is already 10,000 beats overdue"_ so he had a 99% chance of heart failure and admits that he hasn't beaten those odds. Finally, the concept of Vincent _"not saving anything for the trip back"_ during the swimming contest is a reference to him going to space because he knows that he's not coming back. Likewise, he also says in his final monologue _"They say that every atom in our body was once part of a star, maybe I'm not leaving (Earth), maybe I'm going home"_ i.e. his body's atoms are returning to space.
@@ExtraCheeseProject But in theory, *he should already be dead* . He’s defied the odds thus far. My interpretation is that the society overstates the risk, thus why Irene can’t go to space either.
@@stuartwashington2658 The incident on the treadmill confirms the prognosis of an (undefined) heart defect and predicted life expectancy of 30 years. Maybe under normal conditions he could live for another few years, but being without gravity causes the heart to change shape (it becomes 10% more spherical) and this could have catastrophic effects on a heart defect, not to mention the effects of 'cardiac atrophy, endothelial dysfunction, and oxidative stress' (Baran et al. 2021; The Cardiovascular System in Space: Focus on In Vivo and In Vitro Studies).
There's an element of speculation in this, but I also believe that Vincent's mission to Titan being a _one way trip_ is the correct interpretation of the subtext, so this is my hill (i.e. my trip to Titan).
@@ExtraCheeseProject Hey, we are all entitled to our interpretations. That being said, I think it's irrelevant whether he lives through the Titan mission or not. GATTACA, I think, is about the triumph of the human spirit. And he has proven that he has a strong spirit in spite of his defects- which are only predicted and not certain. I also think the movie speaks out against determinism overall, genetic or otherwise.
I also take issue with your idea of the society not appearing to be a "dystopia." There is a passing mention of "invalids" being "segregated" from the rest of society (specifically the line about "Let's look for [the killer] where invalids live"). Also, the assumption that the killer *is* an Invalid just because an Invalid was present. My parents remembered the Jim Crow South- not a nice place to live. In GATTACA, bigots have it down to a (real albeit abused and oversimplified) science.
And if he does happen to return, he could champion rights for Invalids. He would not be a hero if he chose to continue hiding, though Jerome gives him that option.
@@stuartwashington2658 By all means, I appreciate hearing other interpretations, it's just that these interpretations must be _accurate_ to the film.
My argument that the society shown in Gattaca _"is far from a dystopia"_ is somewhat based on the issues you've raised, because although there is new discrimination based on genetics, this has just replaced the old/current sets of discrimination which are based on less _substantial_ factors like ethnicity and gender. Indeed, the future shown in Gattaca appears to be colorblind and without any emphasis on gender, which I would argue is still _progress_ in spite of the issues with the new 'genetic determinism' which, as you said, their society would need to resolve somehow. However, I have an admittedly _cynical_ belief that society is incapable of solving problems because most problems in society arise from inherent flaws in humans, so instead of societies actually _progressing_ they're usually just trading one set of problems for another set of problems _ad infinitum_ (or _ad nauseam_) 😬
They were planning a Gattaca TV Series which may have explored some of the repercussions of Vincent and Director Josef seemingly _proving their society wrong_ as you described it, but the plans were dropped last year, so we'll never know 😔
Question : If Vincent got better by training for years and Anton lost the swimming contest because he didn't try to improve since he thought of himself as perfect then why would Vincent expire during the mission ? After all he worked very hard both to pass himself as a genetically improved individual and during his training time. Anton just let life carry him where he is while Vincent had to forge his way in.
Vincent didn't win because of better training, he won because he didn't leave anything for the swim back
@@ahabcolerchat9404 That's what he said about the first time. This implies he didn't care if he survives yet he did. Should we really take his words at face value ? IMHO, not so much.
@francoisleveille409 the character lives his life way out on a limb with no certain way back. Did you watch the movie
@@ahabcolerchat9404 Oh! I'm sorry! I have no freedom of thoughts! I couldn't possibly understand it in a manner different than yours! Who am I to even consider the possibility that my point of view would be allowed to be anything different from yours!
I think the main character was motivated by a sense of injustice at being denied opportunities so he understood having a very good start was NOT the only factor.
IMHO, he said that about the swimming contest because he thought that FIRST he would win it and THEN it would either be his end OR MAKE HIM STRONGER.
@francoisleveille409 just because you may have a genetic predisposition does not mean it will be expressed. Knowing and living with that uncertainty is the strength. There is no swim back
Vincent was driven by self ambition and belief that determination and preparation can beat natural born talent and hubris.
From Vincent's perspective, the mission completion wasn't the goal. The goal was to stand up against adversity and take it as far as possible.
I rooted for him.
Clearly as viewers we are meant to root for Vincent. But his actions undoubtedly put unnecessary risk into a very scientifically important and unique expedition. He is definitely a flawed anti-hero.
@@jackhussey6334 he aint superman 😅
Did you watch this video?
Another inference would be that he doesn't rush to the body, because he doesn't want to draw attention.
Well said 👏 Also, if he rushed to the body he'd have to respond in some way, so I think he's deciding how he's going to respond while composing himself 😬
@@ExtraCheeseProjectOr Vincent is nervous about the oncoming total sweep that is going happen. Why someone is going to threaten to expose Vincent instead of just exposing him? It is not like Vincent is an heir of a mafia family...
So being an astronaut is like being in los Angeles!! .. With a fatal heart condition ... and high tendency for violence 😥
😆 It does seem that way 😥
Hadn't watched this movie in something like 25 years, and I realize I missed a lot of what this guy was talking about, but I feel like he's glossing over the fact that this movie portrays a world of genetic pre-determinism. In the world of Gattica, in one generation the world changes to where if you aren't born with manipulated genes, you won't be able to do anything worthwhile for yourself or society, mainly because no one will give you a chance. People with normal genes are second class citizens who never get the chance to show that they are more than a meatbag carrying sub-par genes.
You're absolutely right! *I did gloss over that subject because it wasn't the focus of the video* and I even referenced the 8-9 minutes of material that discussed this subject which I cut out, i.e. *I did my best to highlight that I was glossing over those subjects to save time.* For the record, I do agree with your analysis, but I think that all societies trade one problem for another without ever solving anything (because I'm cynical) 😬
I have seen this film at least 7 or 8 times and this never occurred to me. It seems so obvious now. Good thing I dont do anything important for a living.
I saw it 4-5 times before noticing anything - and that was only during a re-watch after doing intensive analysis on the subtext in 'Cast Away' for several weeks - so I'd like to think that it wasn't very obvious 😅
This is one of my favorite movies. With that said, I've also always noted that, his life expectancy and the mission time of his space-flight.
I always kind of ignore that part however because I absolutely love the story, the acting, the cinematography. The feel of this movie is unlike any other. The idea of a person proving himself capable in a world of enhanced individuals. Coming from a lower-class and testing himself. The psychological state and feelings that the environment of this movie produces. I just love it.
I saw it first when I was 17 and it's always stood out to me as a favorite. It is not a popular movie and I've never met anyone in person who has seen it. It's unfortunate because it is such a brilliant story.
In many ways I find Vincent a hero. And perhaps he will succeed in the mission. The likelihood is small but so is him pulling off everything else he succeeded with. Sometimes people do succeed against all odds.
I think the moral of this story is that genetics only takes you so far. In the end it’s hard work and determination that allows you to succeed. In now way is it certain that he will die, or the mission is doomed to fail
How do you explain the incident on the treadmill then? Also, Vincent tells Irene that _"I don't have twenty or thirty years left in (my heart); mine is already 10,000 beats overdue"_ and in his final monologue he says _"They say that every atom in our body was once part of a star, maybe I'm not leaving (Earth), maybe I'm going home"_ i.e. his body is returning to space. Also, Vincent _"not saving anything for the trip back"_ during the swimming contest is a parallel to him going to space because he knows that is also a one way trip.
It's taken 26 years and finally I feel validated for my thoughts when leaving the cinema.
It's definitely a slow burn film. Jude Law was excellent. Uma Thurman was hot as the sun as well, yes please. I always liked the film who's to say what limits anyone can achieve in life. I always liked the ending where the doctor knew the whole time and tells Vincent he has a son like him and gives him the pass to fulfill his dreams. Even if he was a murderer doesn't change the fact he succeeded with all the cards stacked against him. Even the swimming scene where Vincent explains to his brother that he would rather die than let him win willing to risk his life and swim to China if need be. When Vincent gets the leg surgery to make him taller and Eugene never questioned his commitment again so many strong scenes in the film.
I agree 👏 As Director Josef said _"Nobody exceeds their potential, if they do, it only means that we did not accurately assess their potential"_ (paraphrased) so reaching his potential took everything Vincent had, which shows just how much hard work it is for anyone to fulfill their potential and sheds light on why Jerome failed so miserably 😬
I hate to be "that guy", but it's GATTACA in all caps. If you look at any of the promotional materials, movie posters, etc. it's always written as GATTACA. This comes from the way we write the nucleotides of DNA.
You're right, but every publication - IMDb, Rotten Tomatoes, Screen Rant, Metacritic, Amazon, etc. - uses 'Gattaca' so at a certain point it's just about metadata 😬
I always said AGATTHA for the name of the movie, never noticed it was something else
Damn, I've watched this film a dozen times, I even did a film project on it in high school 20 years ago. I feel like a moron for not catching this.
Until a recent re-watch I was blind to the idea as well - I'd seen the film about 3-4 times before that - I think that doing so much analysis on the subtext in 'Cast Away' must have opened my mind to the possibility 😬
Cast Away is terrifying. It's a fairy tale that's almost plausible - with the singular exception of actually surviving the premise.
The talented Mr spaceman. Love GATTACA
😂 That is so funny! I never realized that Jude Law was playing roughly the same role in that film as well 😅
bad take being honest, he overcame all the problems, so im sure he going to make it via space. also for me it was to provide that being perfect is more then genetics, its wiliness
Gattaca is about human struggle but in particularly about the struggles of disabled people in a world where only perfection is acceptable. Being disabled myself I have had to work so much harder than others to get much less. I loved the swim scene too because it’s how it feels to use every last ounce of yourself to keep going but even then he still saves his abled body brother and himself because bodies have limits but love does not. This was after a lifetime of his brother berating and abusing him for being disabled. He still rose above, carried the privilege sought across the water on his back. Great scene!
This was a fascinating and thought provoking perspective on a classic 90s sci-fi dystopian thriller. You’ve seemingly come to a conclusion that I don’t remember a single reviewer or friend/family member who saw the movie in 1997 arriving at, although I can’t remember them all in detail, and yet I think most people today would admit that your proposal is entirely plausible.
I have two questions for the maker of this video: what year did you first watch “Gattaca” and what year did you arrive at the conclusion that the main character was always wildly irresponsible for what he did?
I wonder if your viewpoint was plausible in 1997 or if our society has just changed so profoundly between 1997 and 2024 that we’re drawing conclusions today that we were basically philosophically incapable of drawing back then…
I may be overthinking this, but…
I first watched Gattaca between 2000-2005 with my grandfather when I was about 12 and I remember him saying something like _"That's it? He just dies in space?"_ so my grandfather wasn't impressed because he's old and prefers _'conventional heroes'_ like John Wayne or Steve McQueen 😅
To answer your question more directly, I've always felt that Vincent's actions weren't entirely justified and this is probably because of my grandfather, but it's only during a re-watch about 6 months ago that _'Vincent is actually the killer'_ occurred to me and I think it was because I'd just made the follow-up to my first Cast Away (2000) video then; i.e. I've been analyzing _subtext_ so much these last 2 years that my mind is probably more open to these possibilities now.
So I don't think that the _zeitgeist_ has had any influence on my analysis unless you'd count the _zeitgeists_ from the 1950s/1960s/1970s which influenced my grandfather's criticism 😬
Thank you for the awesome feedback! 😃
"It merely means we misjudged his potential." Vincent's lifespan is undefined, just as the doctor, his son, his brother, and Eugene were all ill-served by the reproductive geneticists. Further, don't forget the spit in the senior director's eye.
Also, if cardiac was an issue, the then-current science would preserve him. Further, re: scars on the leg - that's Eugene's story, and happened outside of the country. Finally, society locked Vincent into a corner with unfair rules, even as exist today. Military pilots - LASIK now allowed. Irene and Anton had pedigree but not ability or discipline - Vincent was head-and-shoulders beyond.
At 43 minutes the film briefly shows the postmortem - there are 5 technicians working at this: one holding pipettes, another holding sample tubes, another taking the specimens, another making notes, and a fifth who is somewhat out of shot doing something undetermined - the film is showing us that there's no way that a specimen could be misplaced and simply remain unaccounted for the way that Detective Hugo asserts.
As for Vincent's heart issues, I've discussed this multiple times already, so here's abridged notes: the incident on the treadmill shows that his heart does indeed have issues. Also, Vincent says to Irene _"I don't have twenty or thirty years left in (my heart); mine is already 10,000 beats overdue"_ and in his final monologue he states _"They say that every atom in our body was once part of a star, maybe I'm not leaving (Earth), maybe I'm going home"_ i.e. he's returning to space. Also, Vincent stating that he's _"not saving anything for the trip back"_ is a parallel to him going to space because he knows that is a one way trip.
@@ExtraCheeseProject how about the employer get an ACTUAL diagnosis of a heart condition. Surely a dna predictive test is inferior to getting an actual diagnosis. Or maybe he passed all his physicals and hey maybe surely an ekg and the gene testing was quantitatively wrong.
(My read on the treadmill is that his actual heart rate was bleeding through to the recording. Not that he had any actual heart issues. )
(Please excuse any appearance of an argumentative tone, just using debate tactics. Lol.)
@@LLLLLL-wp9bz I already responded to your point about the lack of a distinct diagnosis in another comment, so I won't repeat myself, but I will add that leaving the diagnosis vague is probably necessary for the film to work because it allows the audience to suspend their disbelief. For example, if the film presented a distinct diagnosis of 'Aortic Coarctation' then some viewers might immediately dismiss Vincent's performance as unrealistic, however, it's possible for people with Aortic Coarctation to exercise normally without ever realizing that there's a problem, such as outlined in this research paper:
_A young marathon runner with severe aortic coarctation and bicuspid aortic valve disease complicated by contained aortic rupture_ (2020), Mihalj et al.
He is a marginalized person with no good choices in a bad system. A seedy man in a seedy world. Should he just take the cards he is dealt in a fixed game or should he cheat back?
I read this in the voice of the _movie trailer narrator guy_ from the Screen Junkies 'Honest Trailers' series 💯
I love how silly this channel is and yet how serious the topics it discusses
Bloody brilliant analysis - I also felt that there was nothing inherently wrong with the technology in the film, just the biases it led to, and the present world is hardly free of biases, and certainly less substantiated ones. But now realising that Vincent was the killer blew my mind! Well done!!
Thank you so much for the awesome feedback! 😃 I agree completely, I would trade Gattaca's "substantiated biases" for the seemingly random biases we have now in a heartbeat, well said! 👏
@@ExtraCheeseProjectI would say that the only reason you would be willing to accept those biases it's because you're under the impression that by some miracle you wouldn't be a victim of them.
@@tanyl1 Part of the content which I cut _'talking about underdogs and adversity'_ 09:30 was that my mother chain-smoked while she was pregnant with me, so I live with the health consequences of my parents deciding that they weren't going to give me _"the best possible start"_ similar to Vincent. As for trading the biases of our current society, I'm an academically gifted postgraduate working as a courier and making YT videos in my spare time, so do you really think that I have a sanguine disposition about any aspect of life? 🙄
I disagree with your take. The whole point of the movie was that society doesn’t define the person, the individual defines themselves. Vincent potential heart problem, is just that potential, there is a chance it might never happen. Vincent is also a genius, his borrowed ladder got him in the door, but his mind is what got him to be lead navigator. After the movie, I prefer to think his abilities are what saves the mission. But there is one dark point you failed to mention, if Vincent completes the mission, Jerome’s blood and other samples would all be from a 30 year old and damaged by cryo storage, he would be found out eventually and most likely charged with Jerome’s murder
The treadmill incident confirmed the prognosis of a heart defect and Vincent's predicted life expectancy of 30 years. Maybe under normal conditions he could live for another decade, but being without gravity causes the heart to change shape (become 10% more spherical) and this would be catastrophic for a heart defect, not to mention the harmful effects of 'cardiac atrophy, endothelial dysfunction, and oxidative stress' (Baran et al. 2021; The Cardiovascular System in Space: Focus on In Vivo and In Vitro Studies).
Also, the concept of Vincent _"not saving anything for the trip back"_ during the swimming contest is a parallel with him going to space because he knows that's a one way trip; to conclude his final monologue he says _"They say that every atom in our body was once part of a star, maybe I'm not leaving (Earth), maybe I'm going home"_ i.e. his atoms are returning to space. So, I believe that Vincent's mission to Titan being a one way trip is the correct interpretation of the _subtext_ and that any analysis which concludes otherwise is not being accurate to the film.
@@ExtraCheeseProject Treadmill - Irene and all other runners were dismissed, whille Vincent continued. They all would have been dragging, as he was. (Plus he he was so motivated that he ran a 6-degree incline while everyone else's was flat. (No evidence for or against, but possible.)
@@maggiekracken9509 It doesn't matter how well Vincent performed on the treadmill if the end result was a cardiac episode. It's like saying _"Yes I won the race and that's why I had a heart attack"_ except the purpose of the 'race' was to determine if there were any health issues.
That Sound vage. A Lack of Empathie is no prove for murder. Not moving fast to the place of the crime can mean that Vincent had other things in his mind. Its barely a hint. the same with his viliant behavior. We can best case say that the cops got the wrong guy but we will never Figuren out who did it.
One scene shows his brother swimming in the large bath - that's implied to be his normal routine. So he's been training also
True, I've already addressed this in my reply to the pinned comment 👍
Endless Pool - current treadmill. Relaxing workout.
1. Why should Vincent be nervous at the crime site and brush off his eyelash if he is a killer? He would know what is going to happen. 2. Why would anyone with the project threaten to expose Vincent instead of just exposing him? Vincent is obviously not a heir of a mafia family or a political clan.
3. It is very not obvious that Vincent's mission is doomed. He is a Navigator First Class, not a DEVGRU operator. The movie was written when the Human Genome project was all the rage, promising miracle cures around the corner. But not that many knew that genes aren't always some straightforward blueprints. Their expression and interactions are extremely complex. Vincent might have a poor heart health prognosis, he is obviously weak on a treadmill. But again, his task is to calculate trajectories, not to run a marathon in full gear. Overspecification was totally a thing in the early years of space exploration.
1: You're really asking me _"why the killer should be nervous about being a witness to the discovery of his crime?"_ The question should be whether he was nervous or not: I argue that he responded nervously in his body language and actions. I mean, he plucked the eyelash and left it at the scene, as Jerome said _"How could you be so careless?"_
2: During the narration Vincent says _"Only one of the mission directors has ever come close to discovering my true identity; strange to think he may have more success exposing me in death than he ever did in life"_ I can only speculate _why_ this mission director became suspicious of Vincent and couldn't successfully expose him, but the film is establishes this as the case, so we just have to accept it.
3: Another commenter already raised this point and my argument is that the rest of Gattaca's society has such an emphasis on people's potential being _accurately measured_ that they probably wouldn't have sufficient contingency for the mission leader suddenly expiring. However, there's no way to know for sure, so we should probably meet halfway and agree that _"Vincent's sudden expiration certainly wouldn't contribute to the success of the mission."_ 🤝
@@ExtraCheeseProject1. If Vincent was the killer, he would have known that the body is going to be discovered. It is not like the killer was trying to hide it. "OK, here is the expected commotion, just show your deepest concerns".
@@ExtraCheeseProject 2. Well, if you think that "we can only speculate why that mission director...couldn't successfully expose him", then you also must consider the motive for killing "threatened to expose him" as a speculation. Deep identity checks are pretty deep and routine in the Gattaca world - they check your blood at the entrance. Every day. There is no need to threaten, but there is a duty to report any suspicion.
@@ExtraCheeseProject 3. Medical emergencies aren't the only threat to the mission. Accidents do happen in space. Some fire, rapid depressurization, or suit malfunction can thin the crew numbers. Generic superiority can't prevent those and it would sound pretty thin stretched that people of Gattaca are oblivious to the dangers of the spaceflight.
@@timbehrens9678 1: I disagree because Vincent is shown as an impulsive and emotionally-unhinged person. I mean, the mission director was killed in a visceral/impulsive way (similar to the police officer getting mercilessly pummeled), so you're talking about Vincent's reactions like he's a _cold and calculated_ killer whereas he probably just got emotional and pummeled the mission director with a keyboard without any forethought. So on the one hand, yes a killer _might_ expect the body to get discovered, but on the other hand Vincent probably _hoped_ he wouldn't be around when it was discovered. In the same vain, not only do I think that Director Josef was physically incapable of pummeling someone with a keyboard, but I think that he would have _planned_ a better way of doing it if he had wanted to kill him.
3: We're not told a lot about the nature of the mission. I like to think we're shown something similar to '2001: A Space Odyssey' (1968) where they go up to a space station in business suits like a commercial shuttle, leave from the space station in a more conventional spaceship with spacesuits and all the other conventional astronaut stuff, including the seemingly endless risks.
I'd argue that the health of the mission's leader is probably key to the mission's success, but we have no way of knowing, so probably should agree to disagree 🤝
I found all the charectors to be pretty flat in this movie which matches the social conditions so an unreliable narrator would be a good twist. The concept of predestination versus competitive drive is overplayed in hollywood but it's also hard to support such an awful society they portray here. Jude always does a good job but the final scene of him doesn't match his enjoy life attitude meant to contrast with Ethans determination.
I think you’re overthinking (I am definitely an overthinker, which is why I feel I have the authority to make that judgement).
The reason why people see Vincent as the hero, is simply because he is challenging an oppressive and unfair system, according to most people’s current values and morals.
Most of his actions feel justified, because they’re either against the system, to work around it, or against people who try to defend such system.
People often tell me that I overthink stuff, but overthinking something doesn't mean the analysis is wrong, because by definition 'overthinking' is just a subjective judgement which somebody asserts (that was me overthinking the concept of overthinking). I put so much effort into my videos and when people give feedback like _"You're overthinking"_ or _"It's not that deep"_ it seems like they'd rather watch a _shallow_ video with _under-thought_ analysis 😅 I don't think this is the case with you though; I assume you _disagree_ with some aspect of the analysis or my conclusions?
This was taught to me some time ago. Reasonable people make no change in the world. They’re “reasonable”. So, the world gets them to accept “reason” and they bend to the world. Unreasonable do not bend and eventually the world bends to them. So all change in the world are done by the unreasonable. Here’s another take from Lord Acton. “Good men are never Great, and Great men are never good.” Vincent is unreasonable and at the end a Great Man. He has beaten the system. Women love him. “Better” men than him envy him. Others look up to him and admire him. Even when he eventually dies in Space. He has achieved his goals and dies a Hero. Don’t get me wrong I’m not disagreeing with your premise. We’re just seeing the “Naked Lunch” of what all that entails. Missions fail, men die, and how many of us truly live. You know Ethan Hawk married Uma Thurman after this movie. They have children together. They may divorced now and he isn’t considered the greatest actor or that Gattaca was a big hit. But dam man for a while
at least Ethan was winning Big Time.
I appreciate your analysis as it reminds me of the 'trickster' archetype in mythology: usually portrayed as a reckless and unchecked force in the world, tricksters by definition _challenge the status quo_ and in many cases are responsible for great changes, such as the recurring 'Theft of Fire' motif, with _'Coyote'_ (Native American), _'Crow'_ (Aboriginal Australian), Maui (Polynesian), _'Raven'_ (Eastern Eurasian), and of course Prometheus (Greek) all _stealing fire_ for people.
So was Vincent a _'culture hero'_ or just a selfish guy who wanted to go to space? Showtime was planning a TV Series based on Gattaca set in the future from these events, but they dropped the project in 2023, so we'll never know for sure 😔
@@ExtraCheeseProject is Vincent a cultural hero or a selfish guy? It’s up to your interpretation. The director definitely painted him as one. In the story he’s a hero to the doctor and his valid/invalid son. Secondly, thank you 🙏.
!
I greatly miss films like this one. So much of the 90s was taken for granted.
Well I feel very naive now. Never occurred to me that he could be the killer. Shows you the power of the camera following a character. Someone should remake Jaws from the shark’s perspective.
Really well done video. Subscribed.
I think 'American Psycho' might be 'Jaws' from the shark's perspective 😅 Thank you so much for the awesome feedback and the sub! 😃
What's with the scenes with the yellow suited astronaut? I never saw that in the original. The movie ended with him taking off in the rocket in what looked like a business suit, for some reason.
Those visuals are from '2001: A Space Odyssey' (1968) and the dialogue is from the film (edited to sound like a transmission). It's just a fun edit to help visualize what I was describing in the video and I did reference '2001: A Space Odyssey' at 00:30 in the bottom left corner 😬
Also, I'm glad that you mentioned the choice of business suits, because I like to think that Gattaca's first flight was to a space station - therefore, more like a commercial flight, exactly as its shown in '2001: A Space Odyssey' - and the trip to Jupiter would have been taken from the space station and more like _conventional astronauts_ with proper spacesuits and spaceships etc. anyways, I'm rambling 😅
@@ExtraCheeseProject Thanks for the explanation. It's been too long since I saw 2001. All I remember from that movie is what I think of as the "psychedelic part."
@@bobdole6411 For me, I think of it as the _"Homer Simpsons in the massage chair part"_ 😅
@@ExtraCheeseProject Yes!
since you are talking about my favorite movie, you got a new subscriber!
Thank you that's so encouraging! 😃
I have NEVER noticed that Dean Norris was in Gattaca. Insane
So ironically Dean Norris was the _sussy baka_ 😅
The sequel to this movie is good too. They made a movie and TV series about it. It is called "Lost in Space" - it's about what happens when the navigator hides his heart condition and dies after takeoff leaving the rest of the crew: LOST IN SPACE! LOL
omg! 🤣
I would argue that there is a risk in cleaning the undesirable traits. That risk is clear in inclination for violence. Is tempting to wash it away, as if violence was per se a bad thing. However, we are only here because our ancestors where efficient in being violent and using extreme violence to achieve their goals, sometimes. Nowadays violence is often a problem, but, any (very likely) change in conditions can make violence necessary for survival of the specie again.
We tune down violence, what is now acceptable levels of it will feel like too much. We repeat the process for a few dozen generations, soon humanity will be too fragile to endure even mild levels of conflict. 'Symbolic' 'aggression', and so on. But circumstances change. No planing is perfect, no system without flaws.
If we keep a portfolio large enough the variants, keep some violent sub-cultures (for instance). Then, sure. We may use genetic as a tool, engineer a caste society, and it may work better for all people involved that our current society works for the vast majority.
As long as we keep in check the human desire for super-simplification. The very basic inclination of life to laziness (economy principle, if you prefer). If we keep enough ugly and uncomfortable things in the world. When we could eliminate them for the sake of maximise profit in the foreseeable future.
The hard thing is to keep in check the human desire for super-simplification, our laziness.
Sooner or lather someone will try to reduce the 3.000.000 genetic models/castes to the minimal number possible. And if the human whim is allowed its way, the "minimal number" will be always 1. That leaves us with too much uniformity, too little genetic variation, and no ground to adapt to unexpected changes in our environment.
I agree with your analysis 👏 It's interesting that you used 'violence' as an example of something seemingly bad, but which still has its place in society, as I was watching Cobra Kai and that show makes a great case for this concept; i.e. sometimes violence causes trouble and other times it solves all of the problems, with the important thing being know when/how to use it appropriately 😬 For example, maybe if the police officer Vincent pummeled had more of a violent nature he would have been able to defend himself and apprehend Vincent, but he was probably similar to Director Josef _not having a violent bone in (his) body_ in this case to his detriment.
Thank you for the thought provoking insights! 😃
I am watching Dexter,@@ExtraCheeseProject. One thought that crosses my mind often is how that same character would be a pillar of society in many other settings. It is in the core the Classic Greek hero, the Viking King, etc. In a long war of annihilation I pity the nation which has to fight an army full of enemies like him, only having 'normal' people to fight as soldiers. And in the typical post-apocalyptic setting (with or without zombies) his kind is way more likely to survive, and to be responsible for the survival of humanity, than the rest of us.
I am NOT a fan of violence, and I don't recommend it as first option to deal with daily problems. Much less as preemptive tool. However, I do believe that violence is "a" option. Must remain in the tool box.
To be used as last resource, only. But, to be used. When a last resource is needed.
When, not if. Because one certainty we do have in this universe is that violence is going to be needed. Sooner or later (preferable later).
@@thiagom8478 I like your line of reasoning here. It reminds me of a video essay I had planned on 'Children of Men' (2006) where the protagonist 'Theo' not only needed to be a trustworthy person who could rise to the occasion, but _acts of violence_ were also required to protect Kee, so maybe humanity would have been doomed if Theo had been incapable of violence. I mean, at the onset of the film nothing about Theo suggests that he's a Greek Hero, or that he has any 'violent capacity' like a Viking King; he's just a good guy who Julian could trust, but _'when push comes to shove'_ pushes and shoves are usually required 😬
When I'm bored I create syfy and fantasy stories (I'm a terrible writer but quite good at worldbuilding)
I've created a universe where Aliens evolved from species that doesn't kill. The implications are really interesting if you think it completely trough. Not only would it be a society which developed without any significant revolution it would also be a society which would have intese debates how direkt actions have to be until it is considered to cause the death. For example in cases of diseases or famines. And how to deal with "the politics by other means" aka war.
They would most likely develop horror stories about demons and they would develope scientific theories that species that kill other could never develop to a space traveling society because they would go extinct as soon as they reach the atomic age. Which makes for a cool culture shock on both sides when they meet the humans. (Which would wreck human society as well, since we are the baddies for many)
Long story short. Just eradicate the the possibility to kill, not even to be violent, is such an impactfull but interesting concept that it would change everything.
Your analysis is helpful and made the movie better. Still don’t understand why Jerome left fluids and killed himself knowing Vincent probably wouldn’t have made it back.
Jerome didn't know that Vincent was exhibiting symptoms of a heart problem so he was probably just trying to give him the best chance possible; this fits his character because he was consistently _optimistic_ about Vincent's chances since he saw Vincent have that leg-extension surgery 😬 Thank you for the awesome feedback! 😃
Been a while since I've seen it, but I'm pretty sure there's no indication that he does have a heart condition. He IS genetically predisposed to having a heart condition. There's nothing in the film to indicate that he does, in fact have one.
Actually there is. On the treadmill he has A-fib.
@spacemanspiff85 Also, Vincent later tells Irene that _"I don't have twenty or thirty years left in (my heart); mine is already 10,000 beats overdue"_ so he had a 99% chance of heart failure and admits that he hasn't beaten those odds.
In terms of subtext, the concept of Vincent _"not saving anything for the trip back"_ during the swimming contest is a reference to him going to space because he knows that he's not returning: in his final monologue he says _"They say that every atom in our body was once part of a star, maybe I'm not leaving (Earth), maybe I'm going home"_ i.e. his body's atoms are returning to space.
@@ExtraCheeseProject Problem with that is the system they use as their basis is proven to be wrong as he is superior to them on so many different levels, genetics don't manifest that way, my dad had a predisposition to heart disease he died at 92 years old in his sleep with never having anything wrong with his heart. Ever occur to you that maybe they were just wrong in their assessment, or were making false claims so they could push their genetic paradise false ideals on the public at large? We kind of already see this kind of thing happening in our world.
@@DustinDonald-cz9ot The incident on the treadmill confirmed the prognosis of a heart defect and the predicted life expectancy of 30 years in a similar way that Vincent mercilessly pummeling the police officer confirmed the _"violent temperament"_ suggested by his genetic profile; i.e. the film shows us things that _confirm_ the science, which makes sense because Sony Pictures took the validity of the science seriously in making this film, with the (now disgraced) _Human Gene Therapy_ researcher 'W. French Anderson' serving as a 'volunteer science consultant' to _"make sure that the science wasn’t absurd."_
To your other point, sure, maybe under _normal conditions_ he could have lived for another few years, but another issue is that being without gravity causes the heart to change shape (it becomes 10% more spherical) and this would have catastrophic effects on a heart defect, not to mention the effects of 'cardiac atrophy, endothelial dysfunction, and oxidative stress' (Baran et al. 2021; The Cardiovascular System in Space: Focus on In Vivo and In Vitro Studies).
I had always assumed he was the killer because no motive was ever presented for anyone else.
Why should he kill the man? If it wasn't the Titan-mission he would have flown another one. 10 rockets a day and you think it was all for the Titan project? They had imho several parallel missions ...
@@yesyesyesyes1600 I think there are a lot of hints that Vincent is not emotionally stable
@@katdroidd Nah - well-controlled, even dealing with his obnoxious brother. And now way he was going to nice-talk his way past the policeman.
@@maggiekracken9509 my interpretation is that he remains in control of his violent tendencies as long as he can get his way by other means.
The point of Gattaca is that Pretty people in Pretty suits go to Space.
Average looking people do not.
😭 This has _"He's out of line, but he's right"_ energy 😅
06:13 *LOL* that got me good haha
First thing the detective said was Director's spit was found in the victims eye, how did that get there if Vincent committed the murder?
Around 43 minutes into the film we're shown the postmortem, there's five technicians - one with pipettes, another with sample tubes, another collecting the specimens, another taking notes, and a fifth who's barely in frame - so, the film is demonstrating that there are five sets of eyes on this autopsy and no way that a specimen could simply go _"unaccounted for"_ as Detective Hugo stated; as I said in the video, I believe that Anton planted this evidence against Director Josef.
@@ExtraCheeseProject Thank you for the explanation after reviewing I see the details thanks for being such a good detective.
What about the scene where Vincent's brother is swimming in whatever the fuck those things are called. It's a hot tub except you have to swim against a current. Was that in the version of Gattaca you saw?
Yes, but how would Vincent know that Anton works out in that hot tub thing? The response I gave Vincent during the swimming contest is in the same vain as Director Josef's jab at Anton: _"Occasionally we've been forced to accept candidates with minor shortcomings, but nothing that would prohibit someone from working in a field such as 'law enforcement' for example."_ i.e. the training at Gattaca is incomparable to anything Anton's ever done.
Endless pool - current-treadmill. All the rage.
I strongly disagree with your assessment that this isn't a dystopian society. It absolutely is! Being forced to live a certain life because of your genetic makeup is very dystopian. You pointed out several of the reasons in this very video.
The case I make in this video is that if we're going to call the world of Gattaca a _'dystopian future'_ then we'd also have to call the world we live in a _'dystopian present,'_ but most people don't appreciate how bad things are nowadays. I mean, we're currently living in a society in which we're _"forced to live a life"_ based on our genetic makeup, economic status, social standing, ethnicity, gender, etc. so is it a _more_ or _less_ dystopian future when most of these biases are traded for one overarching bias?
You and the audience got the point. It was an allegory and not an argument.
But you are right it embraced person over social responsibility, because this is Hollywood and they like there to be a hero on a journey.
You are valid. The show is valid.
Wow, this was eye opening. I remember picking up on some of the clues but I never figured he was the killer.
I like the take on this and have always loved this movie I would love some deleted scene or nod for this to actually be true. But I don't think he would die on the mission he was super healthy worked out like crazy he might have made it back.
Since making this video I watched the deleted scenes and briefly studied the original script: the first drafts were much more _clear cut_ with Director Josef unambiguously being the killer and gene therapy being portrayed as far more sinister, so one way to interpret this is that the 'final cut' removed _certainty_ to allow for more ambiguity and richer subtext, which makes sense because some of the feedback from audience screenings was that the first draft was _"heavy handed"_ 😅
Of course. In that future, genetic diagnosis self-fulfilling because the diagnosed would not train. Fitness overcame the genetics and the possible (probable) short life span. Vincent was comfortable in the second and third ocean swims. He probably (possibly) challenged himself by running at an incline grade while the other candidates ran flat, so naturally he would be exhausted while they were relaxed.
@@maggiekracken9509 The fact that Vincent is capable of running or swimming does not negate the fact that the film showed him having a cardiac issue while on the treadmill.
Disagree with the actual thesis, but admit you make a very respectable case. Just as importantly, looks like you had a ton of fun doing it…
Good on ya!
Thank you for the great feedback! 😃 'Respectable' is the height of my ambitions so this is a definite win! 😅
He's not going to die though. The technicians are wrong about his heart. It is strong in a way that can't be measured by them.
How do you explain the treadmill scene?
@@ExtraCheeseProject
He survived and nobody even noticed an issue
@@jert33 He _barely_ survived a run on a treadmill and everyone noticed the issue, not just the instructor who asked him directly _"Are you alright, Jerome?"_ but also the rest of the cast at the desk who saw the flicker of his actual heartbeat. If the doctor attending the heartbeat monitors had not known that Vincent was an imposter already there certainly would have been an issue.
@@ExtraCheeseProject good points. But I still think it can be interpreted either way. He survived the incident and overcame. I thought the idea was that his heart was imperfect but strong.
@@jert33 That's fair enough. Each interpretation has merit 🙂
I love Gattaca, I've seen it multiple times, and I never once considered that Vincent killed the guy. I also never considered that he's legitimately blind and putting other peoples lives at risk like some kind of sociopath. He probably did have a heart attack. Just watched the Cast Away video and now this, I think this is my new favorite channel lol Subscribed!
This is so encouraging thank you so much! 😃
@@ExtraCheeseProject Thank you! This channel is a breath of fresh air, hilarious, love your take on things, and George McClellan. Greetings from a freshly minted fan in New York :)
@@W00KER Because you're so supportive I'm gonna reveal some _behind the scenes_ details for you: my close friend is a distant relative of George McClelllan, so I made that meme to poke fun of her and she enjoyed it so much that I made it part of the channel's core branding 😅 Glad to have you as a fan! 😃
@@ExtraCheeseProject lol, that's great. I feel like there's a lot of untapped comedy potential in Ken Burn's Civil War. It's just so deeply serious and earnest. Plus, everyone knows it, it's iconic, yet I can't recall ever stumbling on a comedy bit involving it before, but the McClellan video is perfectly simple, love it. Who knows why RUclips decided to show me your 1st Cast Away video, but glad it did. You've got a great style of deadpan delivery with the right accent for it. I hope you love doing these since I imagine it's a lot of work and I'm hoping you keep at it!
I thought about doing a satirical version of Ken Burn's Civil War describing an 'ancient aliens' version of history, but I couldn't get enough _comedy_ in it, like beyond the satire of ancient aliens I couldn't think of any _actual jokes_ to add 🥲 Now I'm focusing on video essays and I enjoy doing them so will definitely keep at it 😁 Thanks again! 😊
A stunningly beautiful movie, made me think a little more about it. Great video
Do you mean beautiful concerning the themes of the cinematography? I would say the latter since movies today hate shadows for some reason. Everything is evenly lit and looks artificial. Never is there a moment where I think that looks like a real room to me. And they use so much filters that you can't even see any skin texture anymore. Even the actors look like plastic.
Thank you so much! 😃
I want to start off by saying thank you for a great video analysis! When I first watched this video it made me upset since Gattaca is one of my favorite movies of all time. Obviously you are just sharing your opinion and perspective, which I appreciate. I needed to digest and process everything so I took sometime before responding.
While you make some great points, ultimately I disagree with your assessment. The fundamental tenet of Gattaca is self-determinism. Are we slaves to some form of destiny (whether that be our genetics, god, etc.) or are we ultimately the masters of our lives?
From that perspective Vincent proved with his life that you can rise above your “destiny” aka your genes. And in the same vein it’s perfectly plausible that the director can sink below his own genetics. Also Vincent may be living a lie to overcome the harsh odds he was dealt in life but I wouldn’t call him a liar. He ultimately tells Uma Thurman’s character the truth, completely exposing himself and making himself vulnerable to her.
Your point about not wanting to send someone to space with a serious heart condition is fair. At best it’s neutral on Vincent’s part. The only 2 things I’ll say is that 1. it’s not confirmed whether he has a heart condition or not. You have the treadmill scene but then you have the final swimming race scene where he drags himself and his brother back to the shore (IMO the swimming is much more strenuous). 2. In the future the way space flight looks is similar to how we would board an airplane today. Obviously it’s not great if a crew member has a heart attack but maybe it would be like if a passenger on an airplane has a heart attack (terrible but nobody else’s life is in danger).
Again, thank you for a great video and take care! :)
I appreciate your thoughtful response 😄
There isn't much to _discuss_ because we both have such opposing interpretations. For example, I would say that Vincent _"not saving anything for the trip back"_ during the swimming contest is a parallel to him going to space because he knows that is also a one way trip - he also says in the final monologue _"They say that every atom in our body was once part of a star, maybe I'm not leaving (Earth), maybe I'm going home"_ i.e. his body is returning to space - you may well interpret these aspects differently because the greatest films/stories leave the opportunity for differing analyses. In other words, if we were discussing a lesser film, there would be no room for a _discussion_ 🙂
All I would say is that if the tenet of the film is truly _"self determinism"_ then it seems like an especially mean-spirited way to handle that theme, because Vincent goes to space and leaves behind Irene - alone now, still with a risk of heart of failure, and also a potentially jeopardized career - and Jerome's final destination is a hot shower 🔥 I just can't get past how Irene, Jerome, and even Anton are written with so much disdain - I mean, they didn't have any choice in their genetics and they're _people_ as well - so I have a hard time seeing any of the _hope_ that other interpretations insist on, but maybe I'm just too cynical to begin with 😅
Thank you for the great feedback! 😃
Did you rewatch the “Deleted” version of the Blair Underwood scene… the longer version is chilling.
I tend to avoid watching deleted scenes, reading the original script, or seeking out behind the scenes stuff when analyzing a film because I believe in David Lynch's philosophy: _"Something isn't finished until it's finished and so every early draft should be destroyed after the film is finished."_ (David Lynch interviewed by Elvis Mitchell, 1988). However, I just watched the extended scene and I agree, it's chilling 😨
Excellent video and discussion...
Unfortunately in the end we all die, the earth will die, universe will die, everything is useless in the end...
"Embrace the pathos" ☕ Thank you for the awesome feedback! 😃
I really liked this movie; definitely need to re-watch now. Vincent is definitely selfish, but we all love a good underdog story eh?
liked+subbed. I had watched (and enjoyed) your Castaway breakdown so it's a bit overdue.
Thank you so much! That's so encouraging 😃
I guess a false confesion could be revealed after the mission left earth.
That's a very good point! Two weeks after the credits roll: Vincent is floating in space, Director Josef's lawyer is submitting a motion to suppress the confession, and Detective Hugo is filing a complaint against Anton for evidence tampering 😬 The fact that Anton concealed his relationship to Vincent could in itself be enough to derail the trial 👍
@@ExtraCheeseProject plus Josef could probably provide an Alibi, if he realy tried to defend himself.
@@comentedonakeyboard Very true! 👏
I will have to rewatch this.
We are never getting out of this planet...
Maybe highly genetically modified versions of us will...
Or just even easier, send humanoids...
Man, I think you're right. 🤯
The film follows this character literally from the point of his conception, and yet withholds the crucial scene where he bludgeons somebody to death? I don't know about that... I think in general you need to accept the story that's being presented to you instead of looking for hidden suggestions of narrative that flip the whole thing on its head. And you've got to admit "thing you were given every reason to think was good was actually secretly bad" is a hoary cliché of media interpretation.
I'd also say that the plot of Gattaca - the murder investigation, the romance, the identity con - isn't the point of the film. It's about inborn injustice, and the way circumstances of a person's birth can unfairly define their fate.
With all due respect, I don't _need_ to do anything you're suggesting, because your comment is just a verbose way of saying _"I disagree"_ without offering any relevant counter-arguments.
@@ExtraCheeseProject Sorry, I used "you" in a general sense, I wasn't specifically telling you what to do. All these approaches are worthwhile as thought experiments whether the conclusion works for me or not. But the counter-argument is... the film itself? If it's a blackly comedic satire about an unfit worker murdering their way to the top, why does it present itself tonally as something completely different, from the first frame to the last? I can't think of any work that does that. I'm definitely of the belief that you can grok what a film is about from the overall vibes, and that's a more useful path to understanding than hyperfocusing on plot minutiae.
@@lordhoot1 Nobody has suggested that this film is actually a _"comedic satire"_ so that's just a straw man.
As for your _"the film itself"_ argument, tonally, this film is presented as Vincent being his own apologist: his narration justifies everything he's done and the film doesn't show anything which can't be justified (i.e. murder). For example, why does Vincent pursue a romantic relationship with Irene? One reason (stated in the film) is that he wanted information about the murder investigation, but another reason (not stated in the film) is that he just wanted to for his own selfish reasons, which is proven by how he lied to Jerome about going on a date with Irene - _"If I don't go it'll look suspicious"_ - he jeopardized his trip to space so that he could sleep with Irene and he also risked her future at Gattaca by getting her embroiled in his lies.
In short, Vincent was a selfish and dishonest person and this film is _his_ narrative: throughout the film he lied to Jerome, Irene, his brother, and everyone at Gattaca, so naturally he lied to the audience as well.
Grok that.
I like this take and I had not yet considered it. My gut reaction is "No, the main character didn't have anything to do with the murder. He is framed in a microcosm of the overall society's flawed outlook".
And your contention is "the society was right to suspect the main character, and all of his efforts to join the mission are impeding that which he values most. Or perhaps that which is objectively MOST valuable".
Hmmm...I'll have to digest that. I just wanted to comment to boost your algorithm.
Thank you for the comment and sharing your thoughts! 😃
_"His efforts to join the mission are impeding that which he values most"_ this is an excellent point! I have a scientific background and I've always had a personal belief that 'science is more valuable than scientists' e.g. Isaac Newton wasted most of his career on studying alchemy and the occult, but the contributions he made to science will outlive him probably for millennia to overcome. So, in the same vain, if Vincent did hinder the mission by expiring he'd have potentially robbed humanity of information about Titan for at least 70 years.
I think that Vincent put himself ahead of the science for selfish reasons and this probably soured my opinion of him as a 'protagonist' more than pummeling the mission director with a keyboard 😅
Joseph commiter the murder to protect Vncent, because he is also an invalid or doesn't belive the discrimination against them should be allowed. Vincent avoided the crime scene because he knew it would be scretenized and wander to avoid leaving evidence, the eyelash explains why this is a genuine fear.
Director Josef stated _"... but now there are enough of the 'right kind of people' to warrant a new measuring stick; bodies with minds to match, essential as we push out further and further."_ I interpret him calling Vincent and the other Gattaca astronauts _'the right kind of people'_ as him being in favor of genetic discrimination and there's no basis to conclude otherwise.
Your second criticism is somewhat self-defeating because it argues that Vincent was weary of the crime scene due to the risk of leaving genetic evidence (which is in itself a logical conclusion) while literally plucking an eyelash and leaving it at the crime scene; thereby demonstrating that this wasn't his consideration at all. As Jerome said _"How could you be so careless?"_ i.e. he was careless because he was emotionally compromised.
@@ExtraCheeseProjectThe trouble with your reasoning is that if Vincent is innocent, he wouldn’t have behaved any differently. He avoids the crime scene because, as an invalid masquerading as valid, he’s already a criminal under the law, and he’s also the easiest person to pin the crime on seeing as his genes already indicate a propensity for violence. That’s sufficient motivation to be hesitant regardless of guilt.
Your theory, while not entirely implausible, also ignores the fact that the theme of the movie is that our genes don’t determine our fate. But your whole video is predicated on the idea that Vincent’s fate was always determined by his genes, from the murder he supposedly committed to his supposed death after the end of the movie. However, this is thematically contradicted by the fact that he wins the swimming contest TWICE against his supposedly superior brother and accomplishes his dream of going to space, while Jerome fails at his dreams and commits suicide. Your theory is plausible under the text of the movie, but not the subtext.
@@Matthew_Raymond _"He avoids the crime scene because, as an invalid masquerading as valid, he’s already a criminal under the law, and he’s also the easiest person to pin the crime on seeing as his genes already indicate a propensity for violence."_ Again, this line of reasoning is _self-defeating_ because it argues that Vincent was weary of the crime scene due to the risk of leaving genetic evidence while *literally plucking an eyelash and leaving it at the crime scene.*
_"But your whole video is predicated on the idea that Vincent’s fate was always determined by his genes, from the murder he supposedly committed to his supposed death after the end of the movie."_ The incident on the treadmill confirms the prognosis of a heart defect and predicted life expectancy of 30 years similar to how Vincent mercilessly pummeling the police officer confirmed the 'violent temperament' suggested by Vincent's genetic profile.
_"However, this is thematically contradicted by the fact that he wins the swimming contest TWICE against his supposedly superior brother and accomplishes his dream of going to space, while Jerome fails at his dreams and commits suicide."_ As I stated in this video, the problem is that people like Anton don't work on improving themselves because they think and act like they're already perfect - so _having_ the genetic potential is entirely different from _reaching_ the genetic potential - likewise, Vincent didn't _exceed_ his genetic potential by winning a couple of swimming contests and boarding a space shuttle to Titan, but he would have _exceeded_ his (predicted) genetic potential if he didn't have some kind of heart condition (again, the treadmill scene shows that he clearly did have a heart condition).
I don't want to sound unfairly dismissive because I am open to exploring alternative interpretations so long as they're interpreting the film and not people's _feelings_ about the film.
@@ExtraCheeseProject Vincent was the only runner left. The others took a leisurely stroll to the showers. Vincent was hyper-demanding and hyper-competitive. I would suggest he was running at a 6% incline while the others were flat, so naturally he was exhausted, as they all would have been. He didn't collapse on the treadmill. His elite training greatly improved his heart health percentage from the imperfect geneticists' dismal predictions. And remember, the docs were already biased against his parents' natural birth so they looked intensively for flaws and found a bunch of suggestions, all likely questionable.
@@maggiekracken9509 _"His elite training greatly improved his heart health..."_ you're confusing glasses with braces, i.e. braces straighten teeth whereas glasses don't do anything to your eyes. Exercising when you have a defect is like wearing glasses, your overall health may improve, but it won't fix a heart defect.
_"And remember, the docs were already biased against his parents' natural birth so they looked intensively for flaws and found a bunch of suggestions, all likely questionable."_ The scene showed that immediately after Vincent was born his genetic code was put into a machine which printed out a little receipt and the doctor read out the results - Neurological Condition (60%), Manic Depression (42%), ADD (89%), Heart Disorder (99%), Life Expectancy (32 years) - so no, a doctor didn't scrutinize anything, it was automated.
This is such a great analysis.
Thank you so much! 😃
He's a Libertarian "hero"
😆 That's so true ☕
you have some sound reasoning in many cases but when you hyperfocus on rules you lose sight of the plot. and im not talking about the movies.
I don't understand.
@@ExtraCheeseProject humanity is currently in the process of quantifying ourselves as a species for the purposes of exploitation and profit and we will only lose more and more control over our lives and environments as time goes on according to what are increasingly distant politicians, bureaucrats, corporations and algorithm and whatever they deem we are worth. life is not always binary. its fluid and i dont like being a number.
@@ExtraCheeseProject and beyond this...do you think such a heavy handed practice would be immune to bias forever? edit: and oh wow, youtube decided to shadow ban this comment. what a great demonstration of techno dystopia eh?
How exactly is science to determine what is the "best" of the parents to keep? You're embedding assumptions. And it's actually extremely troubling from an evolutionary perspective.
What assumptions am I embedding? If possible quote me.
@@ExtraCheeseProject You accept the doctora words: just taking the best parts of you, when they're said to his parents.
Who decides best?
@@JimmyDThing Ah, I see. Obviously the parents would decide as they _always have done_ and likely _always will do_ within a free society. For example, my mother decided to chain smoke while she was pregnant with me and I live with the health consequences of that decision, but should the authorities intervene to prevent things like this happening? A rhetorical question because this whole discussion is beyond the scope of this comments section.
To clarify, I _theoretically_ agree with the sentiments expressed by the doctor, namely: *"You want to give (Anton) the best possible start (unlike you did with Vincent)."*
@@ExtraCheeseProject No-one wants diabetes/cancer/stroke/dialysis - all excluded. However, those excisions may cause unexpected shifts that introduce later problems. For example, GLP-1RAs may be great for overweight parents, but what if like smoking their unborn kids are also affected, and in unexpected ways? We have no idea.
@@maggiekracken9509 True.
I'll be re-watching again
Ban human genetic engineering
This cannot be a human being reading this!
Reading what, your comment? 😅
Dude.. don't you dare ruin this movie for me.
😭
One of my favorite movies ❤
Same ♥
Upstart hypocrite, then antihero
wow what a way to ruin my favorite movie. good job.
🤝😔☕
Antagonist not villian
Agreed 🤝 I would pin this, but I already pinned a comment addressing another misstep 😅
Thanks for ruining this movie for me!
😭😔☕
Croims
No one is a hero in this world. And I won’t assume Vincent did this. The point is this world has no good guys. And cannot.
Gerome is no more a hero than what his brother Anton is. Where one had the physical attributes of perfection, the other had something beyond perfection within the imperfect. As Anton is genetically flawless, it would also stand to reason that his cognitive ability and mental state would be perfectly functioning. Psychologically, he would be very rational - weighing up the risk to reward factor to ensure the greatest chance of success and survival - perfect for a policeman. Vincent, on the other hand has been proven to be somewhat unstable, and willing to commit major fraud of identity and physical ability. He's also displayed aggressive and unreasonable behaviour - causing serious physical injury to others in order to protect his lie. There is a psychotic drive that propels Vincent into doing the irrational to ensure the greatest chance of success and survival.
With all that said, the reason Vincent beat his brother twice in the swim races had little to do with physical ability, and more so with the irrationality of throwing all of your chips on the table and be at the mercy of the roll of the dice. It's all or nothing. In for a penny, in for a pound. There has to be a small degree of "psycho" for Vincent to "save nothing for the swim back." Anton's body didn't shut down on him during that swim. His mind did. For the second time, Anton couldn't comprehend how crazy Vincent truly was - panic set in and control was lost, where he then began to slip under the water. For the second time, Vincent's craziness outweighed the perfect man's perfect mental fortitude.
Every achievement of greatness and to be awarded the highest of distinction, breakthroughs, pushing through unchartered frontiers into the unknown has always had some kind of madness behind it - a madness Anton or any "perfect human" would never possess. As I had mentioned earlier..."something beyond perfection within the imperfect."
This is great analysis 👏
Yes, your story makes a lot more sense than the movie taken at face value. It is not our world, not our current moral values, but it does not make it a dystopia. This jump from "not us" (or "not US" even, too often) to "dystopia" is way too common. What leads me to suspect our world is actual a Totalitarian dystopia, regardless of whether or not this or that fictional setting also happens to be one, of different flavour.
Thank you! Your feedback is so encouraging 😃
This film bothered me right after I watched it. I realized he threatened the mission.
Exactly! Also, his health risks might put other astronauts in danger, so there's a lot of unanswered/unanswerable questions about this 😬
@@ExtraCheeseProject The more you think of the implications of the film the worse it gets. But people get distracted by how good Uma looks.
@@RS-ls7mm Agreed! To be fair though, she does look really good in this, even in her stark Gattaca business attire 😩🤝😅
You're wrong about 2024. There's DEI hiring. It wouldn't be fair to reject him even though he will die in space. We don't pick the best of the best anymore. We pick the best checkmark on the DEI worksheet.
Such a whiny bigot