Training Without Conflict® Podcast Episode Thirty-Eight: Jenny Gibson
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- Опубликовано: 20 май 2024
- Training Without Conflict® Podcast Episode Thirty-Eight: Jenny Gibson
Welcome to another episode of TWC podcast where we explore diverse perspectives and challenge the status quo. Today, I have a brave guest who steps outside the lines of her community's ideology to share her strong opinions on a topic she's passionate about. It's not easy to question deeply held beliefs, especially when they are influenced by powerful propaganda.
Our conversation highlights the difficulty many people face in changing their opinions once they're anchored in a position. As Patrice O'Neil wisely said, "You can hold your opinions, but don't let your opinions hold you." It's crucial not to be "married" to your ideas. They are just ideas, and clinging to a false belief out of fear of being wrong is far weaker than admitting the mistake. But is it at all possible?!
Join us as we delve into the importance of keeping an open mind, embracing change, and the courage it takes to break free from ideological constraints. Let's dive in! 
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Gotta say, what I LOVE about this is how respectful and kind Ivan is to this guest. It would be easy to belittle her or not listen to her because she clearly isn't a "dog trainer" and isn't on the internet making money out of it. Sign of a real gentleman not trying to make her feel stupid. What this podcast does is basically shows just how the general public end up being brainwashed by the whole FF ideology.
I’m sorry but this lady is out of touch with reality and making things up about her dog to justify disobedience and the dog not wanting to be with her
exactly my thoughts, all i hear are excuses
Damn this lady is disconnected from reality
My thoughts exactly Larry! I’m only 46 minutes into this and my first thought (and I don’t mean to be rude at all because I like what Ivan is doing here. I think it’s important to have these conversations) is that woman needs some therapy. She seems emotionally unstable to me. She is very much out of touch with reality and in my humble opinion any dog regardless of breed or temperament simply will not have a fulfilling, stable life with this individual.
Apparently this lady is a dog trainer..... But can't train a recall on her own dog....... She's full of excuses to make up for her poor methodology and understanding
This is nutz and the crazy part of this is there are many trainer's like this
I am just a housewife who decided I love my dog so much that I took the time out to learn about e-collar. My dog gets to be her true self everyday. She chases squirrels, deer, geese, rabbits etc and I know I can ALWAYS get her back. I have great recall but sometimes when your dog is in the zone they can not hear your voice. My dog is not afraid of the collar.
Right? A dog needs choices. Constant constraint makes them lose their minds. I rehab dogs that were surrendered for behavior problems and each and everyone of them had their sanity and serenity restored because of the freedom - within the bounds set by me - that the e-collar gives them. They always accept this deal: "If you recall immediately, if you leave it when I say so, if you stay within the rules, everything else is your choice."
This was a Masterclass in patience. I'm speechless.
Dogs have a choice. My shepherd did not like Rally and refused to run a course. Our instructor was shocked and never saw a dog put the brakes on. We then began nosework and loved it and completed and titled. Its not at all about ego, its about doing a fun sport with your dog, together, building a strong bond, a relationship and trust.
Everybody has a choice … sometimes. What’s your point?
You have the Patience of a Saint Ivan .. 👏
I would not allow this woman anywhere near my dogs. I could only get through a quarter of this episode and I applaud the patience of anyone who could finish it. As well as those who took the time to respond with thoughtful and respectful and perhaps not so respectful commentary. Most of all Ivan.
I'm doing my best, just to keep listening to Ivan's patience 🙆🏻♂️
It felt like she was constantly trying to find ways to respond and create a comeback rather than actually interact with points and engage with the conversation. It sucks when conversations go like that.
Agreed
I am so impressed with your patience and respectful way of speaking with people while not sugar-coating anything and being crystal clear. It’s such a joy to watch every single podcast. I imagine that you’re someone who would be incredibly interesting to talk to about just anything. You give people a safe space to express their views. Thank you for sharing all of this.
Thank you. Means a lot and very much appreciated it
He's so good at staying on track and not letting the conversation stray away from the questions he's asking. I WILL give her that she's very good at political answers haha ❤️💕
Im a simple man, using learning all i can about dog training, as a door to help me rebuild myself and get over a lot of things that have disrupted my ability to function normally all my life as its one thing i have managed to stick by and constantly enjoy even while im facing the worst point in my life where it is truly my make or break moment physically for sure and mentally.
hearing this woman talk about depression at the beginning was brutal. Not a clue. I dont mean to sound rude and i do hope this lady has never experienced times hard enough to truly understand depression and thats why she has said what she has said.
Makes me feel kind of bad there are people out there with such little understanding of both other peoples struggles, but our canine companions to.
Aspiring dog trainer from the uk thanks for everything you share 👍
Where abouts in the UK?
UK needs more dog sports, more dog culture, more dog training community
Thank you
Imagine having a dog with zero recall, having no clue what negative reinforcement even is, openly stating that no evidence could change your mind about a subject... and thinking that you are qualified to tell Ivan Balabanov what he is doing wrong.
Jesus Christ.
I don’t think she’s answered one question and I’m 2 hours in. You have some real patience Ivan, I am going to continue the podcast now.
🐺⚔️
5 minutes in... "I have a dog with no recall". I don't mean to mock but that was hilarious 😆 🤣 😂
@@bespokedfurniture exactly!!
@@bespokedfurniture The funny thing is she could have taught her dog a damn good recall using only positive reinforcementand proofed a solid recall if she had used an ecollar.😂🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀She's unbelievable. Out in the training yard today, my Malinois got a bit distracted on a recall and wandered, I simply said "Maxine, No!" she refocused and happily returned to a heel with her feelings uncrushed.
@cherylmillard2067 exactly that! She was too wrapped up in making excuses for the dog, than too accept responsibility for her own, or the trainers inability... there's no shame in not knowing how to do something successfully either. Like you say, it's all taught with positive reinforcement initially anyway
@@bespokedfurniture 15 months ago I got Maxine, my Malinois at 14 months from a shelter. She was untrained, unsocialized, had a three-bite history and fear aggression to almost everything, now she's doing so good, but it took balanced training to work past those issues, we're still working on some of them, she's a biter when she reacts. In the comments I posted a set a questions I ask these force free fundamentalists. It shouldn't be hard to find.
Ivan! I don’t know how you do this, but much respect to you
I respect enormously this woman for having the courage to do this podast. A small note for her that I would have according to all my years of experience : this is a female dog, spaniel from award winning lines (i.e. high drive dog) who also has a non descrip mother (no idea of her nature) who sleeps apart from its siblings (a sign that they believe themselves apart or above theirs siblings), who does not allow her to put her hand over her head and who favours the only individual in the house who seemingly does not interact too much with her and is less interested in her (being the playstation playing teenage son), a dog that does not want to come when called and wants to be the only living being who decides what she does…. I think think that you have a dog that has a very low level of confidence combined with the working independence (high drive blood line). I task you to just ask yourself honestly (forget the doctrine if the tribe and think independently), is it not possible that your dog does not listen to you as it feels like you do not represent a strong and consistent leader for her and you are not sufficiently engaging for her and that is why she does not come back. I fear she has lived a life not in pain but one that has not respected her DNA, her nature and a life without feeling secure. This is the principle reason why spaniels « go crazy ». I am also sympathetic as to why you believe that it is due to the back pain. As if it was not the case, you have to admit a failure in her training on your part (and abandon your « tribe »). That must be a difficult proposition to contemplate. Also for what it is worth, it is very normal for all dogs (even those that are well trained) to be more attached to their owners after a surgery. They feel weaker and it is / can be a traumatic experience for the dog. It is a similar reason as to why a dog that is a rescue and has been abandoned several times, they never tend to let their new owners out of their sight. I wish you luck in your life and that you can be open to all training methods.
Having watched it all, it was a good if sometimes difficult to listen to discussion for me primarily for watching how Ivan went about trying to break down the barriers that have been placed on someone who really does mean well but in their attempts to do the right thing have fallen into a state of control - her answers were not free flowing, they were trying to remember what the book said, and the book is never wrong. The tribe is always there in the back of their mind and hopefully she can go away now and reflect on this discussion and think about her own opinions, and I think she will as Ivan did an excellent job of keeping this a positive discussion (I guess there is a time and place for positive only!). But the difficulty of leaving that tribe after hearing them tell so many stories about how dangerous the wilderness is beyond their walls is very high, mainly down to self confidence in my opinion and fear of the unknown. The tribe loyalty had her acknowledging that Ivan is levels above her, while at the same time arguing Ivan doesn't know if his own dog is happy. Perhaps there can be something like a force free anonymous where tribe defectors can get together and help each other overcome those kinds of social pressures
Could t agree more with your takeaway from the conversation! 🥂
Do they really "mean well"? This has become the standard assumption but I think we need to question it.
Ivan! You are my HERO 😂😂😂 what a patience!! And so polite to explain with so much respect!! Truly admire the way you manage this!!!❤
Thank you
She's very obviously a neurotic and very very frustrated individual who likes to project power in this indirect controlling way. She's trying to control reality to manage her anxiety. She is projecting, and to me its obvious why her spaniel does not want to be around her... It was almost unbearable for me to watch this but congrats for taking the time and your incredible patience Ivan! It is very enlightening to watch her deflect and avoid the question for over 3 hrs and perform olympic feats of mental gymnastics to avoid common sense and accepting reality. Very difficult individual. You were clinical in your approach, I'm learning and taking notes from how you tackled this!
Oh, thank God. I am listening to this right now and thinking this is insufferable. She is just not getting simple concepts.
It's good to see that I am not losing my mind and others feel the same way.
2:53:48 hang on, according to all the force free people I spoke to “anyone can press a button” “using a e-collar is just a lazy way of training” 🤔 but now it’s this super super complex skill that requires very fine motor skills that takes so long to achieve. 🤷🏼♂️
2:56:41 the fact that she “won’t go down that rabbit whole” is EXACTLY the point, she dare not talk about that through fear of backlash in the same way a lot of the agencies who have gone force free also, through fear of backlash
Man, she still didn’t realize that she is using probably a lot of aversive cause her own dog doesn’t wanna come to her one that she feeds and cares for 10 years
That, or she didn't know how to praise it well. A lot of people have plenty of room to improve to figure out how to better positively motivate their dogs. When I praise my dog she thinks she will go down in the history books for being the best dog ever. Effective praise in combo with effective aversives will get you to convince your dog that they want what you want them to do.
The sat nav example is actually quite interesting. The Satnav doesn't tell you "no" when you choose the wrong road, it doesn't care if you decide to drive on the wrong side of the road head on into oncoming traffic, it just says which way to go next. And if you keep ignoring it, you'll never get anywhere, or end up at the destination without any idea how you got there
It's a good example if you are planning to teach a specific behaviour. In that case, in the beginning of the teaching phase for sure I want to be like a GPS and help the dog in every turn.
I don't think it's a very good example in life in general. I don't want to be my dog's GPS and plan all the routes for him. I want him to explore different paths, and if he chose a wrong/dangerous one, be able to tell him "hey that's a mistake, don't go there".
If you become a GPS for your dog in life in general you restrict him a lot, and it must be annoying af!!
Jenny Gibson, without relying on your usual default replies, I would like you to answer the following questions:
1. How many dogs have you worked with in a training capacity or helped train?
2. Have you been educated in the proper use of the training tools such as the ecollar and prong collar?
3. Do you realize that balanced training is 95% positive reinforcement?
4. Have you ever worked with a dog who had reactivity or aggression?
5. If so, what was the breed, type of reactivity or aggression and how long did it take you to get the dog past those issues?
6. What role does a high state of arousal play in dog training, redirection and aggression?
7. What are your hands on experience with dogs exhibiting a high level of prey drive?
8. If you cannot get the desired outcome, what happens to the dog in the end?
First off you are an absolute gentleman. Your patience is to be admired. I don't understand how these people think they make sense, anyway it is what it is and yes these conversations need to be had.
Every time someone tells me how awful the e-collar is, I ask them, "Which brand did you use that you had that bad result with?"
They always say, "Oh, I have NEVER used one at all!"
And I answer, "Yes. I know." Every time.
Ivan, you are a gentleman, a leader and a teacher, the way you handled this poor ignorant lady.
As a woman myself this woman is insufferable! She cannot argue her point at all! I hope she takes responsibility for dogs who get hit by cars and trucks because they will not come when you call them! I’m wondering how she would handle children who don’t want to take their medication?
3:55 The question should be… are you more willing to cause temporary discomfort to have an obedient dog (that will listen and would not run out in front of a car for example), or would you rather not cause discomfort and “allow” them to get hit by a car.
It’s not about us or others perception of us, it’s about the well being and overall happiness of the animal. That’s a bit narcissistic in my opinion. Get over yourself for God sake.
OMG Your patience is astounding! I applaud your calm demeanor!
It’s my understanding, the dog doesn’t relate the e-collar to the handler, they relate it to the offense.
So… this ladies dog is afraid to go for a walk, doesn’t trust her, won’t come to her and is hurt. Good thing it’s not chewing up people when they get close to it. Great job. If it does I guess she can lure it away with a clicker or a treat.
yeah it's about perception and ideology, many just don't like the idea of using aversives because if you do that to a human you will actually cause damage. Dogs aren't people though so the ideology needs to fit dogs.
She said if she had to say No she failed to set up the environment. So after her dog dies hit by car. She will try again with her next dog by setting up fences all over the city so her dog never runs into traffic.
But she won’t say NO. ever. 😂
Please read my experience on diving into the “force free” tribe if you have time:
I’ve been in online groups lead by gurus of “force free only” and “consent based” training (simplified: where you ask the dog if you, or they, can, or want to, do something), because I have a young female German shepherd that is dog and people reactive. So what else is new?…a reactive gsd. Par for the course and not unusual for the breed, especially because I live rurally and don’t have access to crowds of people. To be expected.
The reason I joined these groups is because I wanted to see and perhaps learn a thing or two…even though I’ve trained my own GSDs for about 30 yrs and always stay up on new techniques. I started serious training over 20 years ago learning from Michael Ellis and many others since then. So I know a thing or two .
Well…I was appalled by what these particular groups were teaching. Did the trainers and people in the groups mean well? Yes. Do they love their dogs? Undoubtedly.
Here is a large chunk of what they postulate:
If your dog is reactive, it is ALWAYS stressed and always fearful. (how do they know? Perhaps some dogs get a kick out of it? Maybe it’s in their dna?)
So you must always walk away from the trigger… and don’t ever go back beyond the threshold. Ply with food to try to counter condition. The advice goes so deep, that they actually tell people to just stay home and not to walk their dogs. Not to take the dogs through triggers, but just avoid anything in life that is a trigger. And for god’s sake, never use a prong collar…even if you can’t physically control your dog without one…continue to use a harness….or stay home.
Stay home to “calm the nerves” of your dog.
And “your dog doesn’t need to go on walks or hikes as often as you think it does.” Don’t let the dog face a trigger! Duck behind a car, turn around and go down another street, while distracting with food….etc….
And again, if this doesn’t work, STAY HOME and play enrichment games or use a snuffle mat so they can sniff something. And above all, “Never use a leash correction!”
I’m serious…I couldn’t believe they are willing to not actually train a dog, not willing to be the leader, not willing to take decisions away from the dog…but let the dog make all decisions, coddle the dog, never say “no”, never use an aversive no matter how mild, never use a prong or a conditioned ecollar….no, instead let the problem go on and on…and continue for years, or for the life of the dog.
I heard the guest here say towards the end, and have heard this horrible sentiment from these groups before…”the price of “freedom” for the dog is too high if you have to use an ecollar once or twice”
Let that sink in folks…
…they will leave a dog in the house or garden it’s whole life, or drug a dog with psychopharma , or euthanize it, BEFORE learning how to use an ecollar, and train with it, in the proper way. She keeps saying for the “welfare” of the dogs…
Well, their ideas are bordering on, and is, in many cases, the actual animal abuse.
A group has come into the domain of "dog training" with methods that completely change the goal of dog training. They are re-writing what it means to train a dog. Shifting goalposts. I wondered on Reddit why all these "dog trainers" online always first jump to "take your dog to a vet!" so quickly after a behavioral issue is described to them...this woman made me realize why. They blame their lack of effective methods on medical issues. But I also thought okay but does anyone here have actual training advice? Then they recommend yes, shutting the dog away, never letting the dog learn to overcome something they believed they couldn't. They recommend muzzles, omg, so many dogs are being chronically muzzled now! And then to top it off, the tranquilizing drugs.
So the state of dog training, their vision for the best friend of man who is struggling with a serious behavioral issue, is to shut him away, drug him, muzzle him. Maybe make him wear a harness because they don't want to be cruel. The scientific community of dog trainers are in their dark ages. They are centuries behind old-fashioned type of master and artists like Ivan, who learned through immersion, deep thought, experimentation, and dedication to the muse.
Yes that’s right. They recommend going to a veterinary behaviorist first thing to treat “normal” reactivity. Something any real dog trainer should be able to do. They won’t even take these cases on.
I think a lot of this “science” based stuff (not!) is borrowed from training dolphins and whales in the SeaWorld type places in the 70’s, 80,s and 90’s. Where you have a huge animal in the water, that can kill you if you’re in the water and use any aversives. So therefore they had to use only “force free” and positive only, probably not even negative reinforcement….because nothing else is possible in water with a large undomesticated animal.
But we’ve been living with dogs for over 20,000 years…on land, not in the water…and they are psychology very similar to us. Methods like clear communication, saying no, positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement work beautifully with dogs…without a deep dive needed into punishment, leaving no behavioral fall out or consequences when done right.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. We need more people to share their experiences
Ivan thank you so much for having these conversations with the force free "tribe". It is well overdue. We all have so much to learn from each other. I had a force free trainer argue with one of my clients about how I'm a balanced trainer which is only about using aversion! Luckily my client has actually seen me work and knows how gentle I am. This force free trainer was not willing to have a proper conversation and would not listen to anything she was told by myself or any of my clients. She just stayed on the same argument about me using fear force and pain!
Wow. Ivan you have the patience of a Saint. In the beginning she talked about her dog not coming when called do to back pain. Well my shepherd who suffered from DM always came to me when called even in his last days, he tried so hard. Her dog was blowing her off, no respect. Relationship though obedience. Force feed doesn't always worse. If my dog was so focused on chasing the fox, I can hold a steak out and say come, the steak is a lower value compared to the fox. The e-collar not only gives you peace of mind but can save your dog's life. I go hiking with my dog, he is given the freedom of being off leash and be a dog, gives him freedom. Now, back in the fall, I had no idea that Copperheads were born in the fall. My nosy Berger Blanc Suisse, was sticking his nose in a nest, I called him and he came back to me immediately and sat in front of me. The collar saved his life, he was not bitten by these snakes and the babies have a more potential vemon then an adult snake, we were 3 miles from my vehicle in the mountains on a Sunday afternoon. If used properly these collars are absolutely amazing. People who have never used or are unfamiliar with a tool, should be shown and taught how to use a tool and witness the beauty of it.
"why would we put it on a tiger" 😂 oh god, Ivan bless your patience and above all else logic🙌🏽
This was one the gems for sure 🥂
@IvanBalabanov that was the hook for me😂. Thank you sir for all you do, and hope to make another workshop with our TRD soon!
the comment about the tiger made no sense. She said "why dont we put them on tiger then" My answer is because they dont live in our houses and we don't expect them to be social. If we did have them in our homes, i would sure hope we used e collars on them because if not they'd probably try to eat people
@@meganreynolds991a lot of things she said there didn't make sense, and that's what happens when you talk about things you don't have a true understanding about and you just parrot trendy social media posts. Hopefully she can take a little knowledge away from this but more importantly get over her cognitive dissonance, and Confirmation biases.
christ that was painful
Watch Ivan's podcast with Susan Garrett, she makes this one look numbed up a bit. 😂😂😂
1:50:00 Wow, she's been exhausting this whole time and now she is so full of BS, and she knows she's painted herself into a corner. Susan Garrett is just as bad, both women are adept at using fallacious logic to construct and defend bad arguments.
The way ivans brain works when it comes to dogs is something to behold
🥂
Respect to the lady for putting her self out there....... But........
When Ivan speaks u listen and understand u do not argue with him, when ur not on the man's level of knowledge or training, this lady should of bin very appreciative of the 4 hours she had with Ivan she could of learned so much if she was open minded and less defensive
This ladies own dog senses her nervous anxiety that's why it avoids her
This owners issues are projected on to her dog
1:58:24 But GPS/SATNAV won't stay silent if the driver makes a wrong turn and then lets the driver continue for miles down the wrong road.
Unconsciously incompetent
But strongly opinionated
@@IvanBalabanov That's a fundamentalist fanatic for you, they'll go down with a sinking ship rather than admit they're wrong. She was so condescending and rude with her little hums, then trying to interrupt you constantly, your patience was next level.
Because of her way of thinking, she lost so many years with he4 dog. Her dog might have slowed down and started to listen better a little because of surgery but in my I think it’s because of age.
I wonder if she even understands that IGP trialing is not only competition but above all a breed standard test? Without igp, the German shepherd dog, for one, as in the breed standard, would cease to exist.
Instead, it comes across as if she believes that competition is only something for the ego of the handler…and she absolutely doesn’t understand that dogs in this sport love doing it, above anything.
You can never ever force a dog to do igp. It doesn’t work.
3:28:34 I could not care less about being judged by people for using an E-collar, I know my dog is happy so I don’t care what other people think. I do care about those people signing petitions to get them banned
can you time stamp the epiphany at around 2 hours 8.5minutes 😆
2:08:33
What really came clear to me from this conversation (lot of conclusions) is that when a person shows that they are unable to answer 1 to 2 simple questions, and change the topic the moment they get challenged, the conversation should stop.
I mean, really... with all due respect Jenny, you waited all that time, assuming it was "biochemistry" when you've described numerous reasons that would indicate pain of some sort in this dog. I could barely listen to this. And this "my dog was in pain" is going to be used to somehow justify your ideology? I would respectfully suggest that the dog should have been assessed for pain like this long before you got around to it. SIGH.
Thanks you Ivan, all your content is so valuable!
Thank you!
Was this a Masterclass in deflection?
The tiger thing is ridiculous for the most basic of reasons. Either were talking about wild tigers which makes no sense whatsoever to use as an example or were talking about captive tigers which, okay, we don't live in our houses with them, we don't let them roam freely beyond the boundaries of their enclosures and our only interest when interacting with a captive tigers should be to feed and water them and if there are any other interactions such as veterinary procedures we sedate them. If you look at a dog, pet, sporting or working and your instant thought process is avoidance and sedation you're in the wrong business. E collars save lives. E collars help dogs fulfil their full sports and working potential. People like this are detrimental to our ownership of high drive dogs
Ivan, I’d love to see more content like this or even your self just breaking down studies. I can’t begin to tell you how much some of your videos have helped me understand my position when it comes to balanced training. It so important because it arms me with the correct information when getting into debates with the Force free. They always start off so condescending and smug, but because of the knowledge I’ve gain from your videos they soon end up looking really silly. I’ve had quite a few debates with people from the force free recently, they think “anyone who uses e-collars doesn’t deserve to own a dog” apparently we “electrocute” our dogs too 💀. Everyone one I got into it with I sent them your video on the “the real facts about science based dog training” and all of a sudden they go silent…except this one lady who was a zoologist and dog behaviourist. She said “I know who that trainer is and I don’t agree with him or his methods from what I’ve seen. He used personal bias and not actual data and scientific based studies or evidence” when asked for specifics she all of a sudden went silent too. I actually can’t stand these people, they never argue in good faith as proven by this lady on the podcast, she could not let her self concede to any single point because they can’t concede any ground and throw all
Logic out the window. Also most of these force free ideologues who accuse me of not knowing how to actually training a dog, 90% of them have their dogs confined to long lines and muzzles. I just find it preposterous that someone who doesn’t have control or a well trained dog would tell someone else who’s dog is trained and under control they I’m doing it wrong. I e had GSD’s my whole life but my current GSD I’ve decided to get into IPO/IGP as I want to become a professional trainer and I believe dog sports will
Be a great foundation. BH test coming soon, just need to tidy up the focus heel, something these 90% of these forces free believers could never do.
What a shame that nearly 4 hours were dedicated to a debate with Jenny. This was a great opportunity to discuss FF versus aversives and, despite my preferences being in the FF camp, it was refreshing to see an aversive trainer happy to chat calmly and thoughtfully on the subject. His patience with Jenny was frankly admirable and anyone watching this that may have been unsure which methods are best will likely lean towards Ivan’s as he spoke so eloquently. Maybe there is another podcast where Ivan speaks with a FF trainer who actually gives pertinent examples of how it works, why it is preferable etc, but if not then I’d love to see another debate, particularly with a FF trainer who competes in dog sports to give true balance. There were so many opportunities for Jenny to ask useful questions and also give examples of why and in what capacity FF works, but she did none of this and seemed totally unprepared. She talked initially about her dog with spine issues and how she avoided recall due to avoiding touch, which makes sense (I’ve had a dog with IVDD), but her reasoning behind why she likes to run like crazy seemed odd and not in line with her pain. I also would have liked her to have asked Ivan how he would have overcome her dog’s recall issue, or at least for Ivan to have offered that information. Clearly, as Ivan stated, her dog was capable of running therefore capable of recall, but if she connected recall with touch then that was the part of her recall training that needed work, which a FF trainer should have been able to resolve. Given Ivan does not use e collars on all dogs for every situation, and referred to her dog as not being motivated enough to recall, I was itching to hear how he believed he could have achieved recall. I also would have liked the general debate about e collars to cover in what other circumstances Ivan uses them aside from recall; are they used on reactive dogs for example? Jenny’s clarity on her beliefs was dreadful and even getting the simple point across that her concern with aversives is that in the wrong hands they are a huge welfare issue was like pulling teeth. Again, I do not use or condone aversives but at least Ivan was able to conduct a rational argument on the subject, whilst Jenny just seemed to ramble and go off on tangents. Never have a watched anything this long and felt so exasperated by a person who had every opportunity to be part of a really interesting discussion.
Willfully ignorant. She may be on a different side of the river, but the one I'm on has dogs that can recall and enjoy themselves without this mysterious fear that she keeps bringing up.
Good point
The only conclusion you can come to if you follow her logic to is inevitable end is that people should not have dogs as pets at all.
2:32:26 pretty sure it’s something like 80%+ of attacks on livestock happen without the owner present, I.e the dog escaped the garden or ran off from the owner. So “just put them back on a lead” is only going to resolve a very small amount of livestock predation. Also how many time do people get caught out unexpectedly. For example I witnessed a woman with her dog off lead a few months ago, (her dog had 0 recall) in a wooded area, out of nowhere came two horse riders. The ladies dog ran straight over and started barking and lunging in at the horses feet. Those must of been some well trained horses because fortunately for the dog they didn’t react or that could have been a dead dog. But that was in an area where there’s no livestock and you wouldn’t expect to see horses.
Are dogs humans? NO! It’s unfair to the dog to humanize it and treat it like a human child.
1:54:05 It’s such a shame that a lot of her arguments for her beliefs are in the “what if” realm instead of relying on logic. The fact she avoided/denied saying that she would ever say “no, don’t do that” is absurd.
So much talk about ego, all while protecting her own with fallacies…
Lots of us in UK use e-collars safely & responsibly. ANY tool can be used incorrectly. But I may have this wrong, didn't Ms O'Neil refer to her dog only going on their field? So the dog is curtailed by that field 🤔 as it would be fenced in & not as forcefree as first thought. My head is just spinning!
3:20:00 - The example of asking to draw a bike and not being able to, even though someone think they do know.... Is exactly what is happening to this lady in regards to E-collars. Assumes she knows how and why they are used, without any experience or attempt to understand it.
But glad she brought it up, and hopefully realized her position about it.
The most sad thing is that somebody else can believe her words.
Indeed
Groan…I listened for TWO minutes…and when she said “why not put it on tigers” that’s all I needed to hear.
She is just another person that demonizes ecollars, but has no clue how they are actually used, because if she did know, she wouldn’t ask such an uninformed question.
Also it’s just incredible to me that these people DONT EVEN TAKE THE TIME TO LEARN ABOUT THE PROPER USE OF ECOLLARS BEFORE DEBATING THEM!!!!
I have literal years of research, study and practiced to learn “only positive methods”…and this group of “do gooders” can’t even take a week to study the amazing nuanced and stress free use (for dog and handler) of an ecollar, especially when dealing with competing motivators and high drive dogs? Talk about stubborn and set in old ways…
Ok, rant over…now I’ll listen to the rest…😂
Her whole argument is based on her opinion and emotions with hardly anything to back it up, on the third listen to this it's a bit embarrassing that she wasn't open to learn from Ivan and wanted to rival his ideas with her waffle nonsense
Thanks. It wasn't easy to listen to, but I'm also very interested in the logic/science of force-free.
Yes that’s why I wanted to do this one
This nurse needs to be seen by the doctor
I have never listened to someone who in my opinion deflects so much. I could never trust this woman. She cannot give a straight answer to a straight question.
Remember people who are against e collars 1) have never used them at all 2) have never seen them used properly on a dog 3) have never had an experienced person show them how they are used properly 4) have never spoken to a dog owner who has had their lives changed by one in a positive way 5) already made their mind up before they have all of the information and that is NOT how a proper decision is to be made based on fact, that is based on bias and predjudice.
I commend you Ivan for keeping so respectful. I would have ended up banging my head against the wall.
Thank you
Best line "I want to know my shit works against someone else's." 👏🏽 A lot of cognitive dissonance going on here... Doing everything she can to avoid admitting that competition allows us to proof real world concepts.
Is this true avoidance or an inner conflict of trying to rationalize her human psychology education versus the rational that competition could be used for self improvement rather than self actualization.
@jenniferhirschfieldsdrt9275 either way it's mentally painful for her to go against her core beliefs and preconceived notions, so I still stand by cognitive dissonance 😂
@@Lil_Kumquat Fair. I can get on board with that theory.
Do people who see dogs as victims actually believe in resilience in dogs through learning?
The mother which is appearing to be doing everything she got to be doing but the child is not feeling safe, doesn’t it sound like the force free approach to training her dog to recall? Appearing to be doing the right thing but the dog doesn’t feel like they can trust and come running back to owner.
Can someone please post the link of the presentation Ivan discussed with the guest at the end of the interview?
"Why don't be put e-collars on tigers?'... oh my goodness not even two minutes in and the cognitive insanity begins.
Ivan, you have so much patience & grace . However, after the first 6 minutes I would have called it & put the experience down to the marketing machine/propaganda of PP & Forcefree brigade, never get a straight forward answer.(After all, thats why many of the trainers are still training. )
I wonder what all those who Ms O'Neil name dropped think right now?🤔 Be interesting to hear from them too.
Dear Ivan, how much patience you have, congratulations!
I thought of that after the first few minutes, amazing!
The lady absorbs like glass, that's what they say here, she just can't get the point.
She knows exactly what you’re on about when it comes to needs - 🎉quote Maslow’s hierarchy of needs physiological comes first.
Patience is a virtue….
So if she says she doesn’t want to say “no don’t do that”, she cant say please dont play the drums right now because I have a headache today 🤷♀️
The force free community talk the talk, but in reality they can't even crawl a crawl never mind walk the walk
That was such a frustrating guest.
Worse than Susan Garret???
@@baylamakarov8701
She was an example of an overrated force free trainer, painful to watch.
Thank God for Advil.
Hey Ivan, I reached out to you a couple times I need to speak with you about how e-collars are harmful to most dog owners! let me know how I can get in contact with you>
I consider myself open minded but I can’t listen to this. If I met her, I would be nice and polite but would never have a conversation about dogs with this woman. She makes the force free community worse than it is. Ivan is so patient.
force free is a scam
She's a typical representative for force free - a complete ignoramus.
Thank you
It's known as "e-collar derangement syndrome". I found it absolutely unbelievable how this woman was completely unable to understand, or refusal to understand, the most simple of analogies by her blindness to her ideology. However I hung in there and I learned a lot about myself and my relationship with my dogs by listening to this very long and painful conversation, so thank you for producing this. I'm curious however, which one of your video presentations did you asked her to watch....does anyone know?
So she want say no, please, give me a break. So, she wants a dog to make a decision or figure it out. Well, I guess she let's her kids play in traffic until they get injured.
She says close to 25 times that she has no experience to be an authority on this topic, but also refuses to say plain and simply that if anyone would have an authority to, it would be the world championship trainer with 40 plus years experience who competes in a highly demanding sport that not only judges ability, position, and training mechanics, but also the dogs mindset and happiness to comply and preform. I don’t know about you, but I would be quite willing and interested to really take to heart and think about what an actual expert with actual experience and actual measurable results and actually happy dogs has to say.
'when she'd come back to me she would know the game was over' then...then you've taught recall terribly
When my dog sees me unplug his collar he gets so excited and begins jumping up and down and knows we are going to do something fun.
From childhood we are taught a great deal that is wrong about the psychology of animals.In fables,fairy-tales and stories describing animal life and behaviour we are often presented with living beings that think,understand human speech and perform moral or immoral acts.If we adopt these anthropomorphic views we shall be at a disadvantage whenever we try to train animals of any kind,but particularly when dealing with dogs.-Colonel Konrad Most 1910
She is a master of whataboutism
This lady is making my head hurt! Ivan has the patience of a saint.
And this is what is wrong with the world today. We all have opinions but we don't all have the knowledge or experience.
This woman us an example of emotional instability and utter stupidity at the same time.
It's sad that she is caught un these mental circles, and it's sad that she is in constant mental delusional pain about her dog.
But I see such people very often in force free circles.
Zak George is another such example.
koalas are vicious fighting for a mate...
Ivan please: get some YOUNG trainers on the podcast, impact the future
Absolutely!
Anyone in mind?
@@IvanBalabanov Oscar Mora, Haz Othman, Jerry Bradshaw, Dave Kroyer would all be fantastic
She's actually thinks she knows what she's talking about
Unfortunately she thinks she has the upper hand in this because of her knowledge
@@IvanBalabanovwas great conversation, respect to this lady for putting her self out there, but the lady is a very anxious, neurotic obviously
Just her energy sets me on edge, I can only imagine how her dog feels being around her
This should have been a disaster and awful to listen to but I really enjoyed it. Jenny at least has the humility to take a step back from time to time and although she was combative, she seemed open to conversation without it turning into a shouting match.
Good point
2:56:26 live in the uk and support proper e-collar usage.
This was such a pain to listen to I turned it off after the chicken wing 🍗
“Ivan Balabanov DESTROYS force-free trainer”
Think of it like a TENS machine
Ivan. You should be a lawyer
😂 I prefer dog training
I’ve never heard of a dog committing suicide.
And she is a nurse. Omg.
Didn't she basically explain negative reinforcement at the beginning with her dog running in order to feel better and her dog doing it by it's choice? :D
I feel for whoever has to groom her dog!
She is so out of her depth it's unreal. She has a dog with no recall and she's challenging you, probably the greatest trainer of our time 😂