Excellent experience and transfer of information video. After 10,000 miles in my Bolt EV LT I still getting over 300 miles average on the GOM and a rate over 6.0 miles/kwh without ac charging at Hill Top Reserve or 280 miles average with ac and 5.5 miles/kwh. In Puerto Rico ambient temperatures range from 80 to 92 degree F. "Outside temperature" gauge always are in green area (between 3.8 to 5.0). Allways charge at 12 amp and 110 volt charger in my house garage. Slow charging is my theory of preserving the battery life.
I agree I turn off hilltop reserve on top of a 5600 foot mountain with roads of 8% to 10% grade and charge at 12Amps for 8 to 10 hours. I consistently end up with 300 miles of range when I enter the outskirts of Escondido CA.
Keeping it plugged in in very hot or cold weather is also supposed to help because there is active temperature management that keeps the batteries within a specific range.
Nice well covered, and thought out presentation Eric. Your real world analysis is nice to consistently rely upon and your tips on saving the battery is spot on. Thx for sharing
I drive a Bolt Ev and I also had the software update. Immediately after I left the dealership I noticed that the range was significantly lowered even though the level of charge stayed at the same level. Chevrolet indicated that the software update was to essentially provide a more accurate range and prevent people from getting stuck on the side of the road....so based on my experience and now confirmed by this video, I do believe that your actual degradation may be of 5 or 6 kw. You have owned the Bolt for far longer than I have so you lived with the previous mod for far longer therefore that's why you wonder if this degradation is much more than it really is.....which is a good thing! Great video! Thanks!
45,600 miles on my 17 Bolt. DC fastcharge 0, hilltop reserve on all the time excepth 1 full charge per month to keep the mothballs out of the battery. Never let the battery go down to less than 40 miles. So far degredation is unnoticeable. Drive 161 miles a day during the week roundtrip. Times in the shop other than the 1 software upgrade 0. Flat out most reliable car i have ever owned so far. The Bolt has already beat my traded in 16 Camry Hybrid in reliability. Would I buy another one...absolutely yes! Because I never get tired of driving it....but it sounds like it might be awhile before I need another one...
Dude! I drive 164 miles a day! Wow. And yes, I haven't really noticed much degradation at all. So far, so good. This is my second year of "thrashing" it. Oh, i drive to work in the desert. Hot ass desert. No problems. In fact, the indicator says it basically LIKES the warm weather.
We have great expectations for the reliability, safety and incredible longevity / life span of the Bolt EV --- easily in excess of 500K , an advancement in itself.
Another very informative video. So glad to see a guest appearance by the orange hat & thanks for taking so much time out of your day to educate us all.
This is a great video - thanks for all your contributions to bolt EV knowledge base. I really enjoy your videos about the logistics of long distance trips.
@@newscoulomb3705 Try my trick out for A few months and see if it helps. My channel will tell you how to install this cheap and easy modification. Also have A twenty year old battery on my channel and other old batteries that I have not filmed yet.
The long and short of it is...EV batteries are as reliable as any ICE range. My Honda did not get the same mpg after 75K. So, no biggie. I love my current electric car. I'll never go back to gas if possible.
Electrics sure seem like a good idea. What kind do you have? The channel *weberAuto* has some really interesting videos where they take about electric vehicles. The *Bolt Motor Deep Dive* video has been my favorite in the series.
Duane Degn the Bolt is very nice. I have a 2017 Kia Soul EV. I got a great lease, $152/month $0 down for 36 months with 10k miles/year. I use it to commute in the NY area. I drive about 9k miles a year and absolutely love it. It has every tech gadget available. I charge at home and wake up to a full charge every morning. The range is 93 miles, over 100 miles in summer and about 70 in the winter with the heat and heated seats on full.
@@raymondbrower7894 Thanks for the detailed reply. I figure my next car will be an EV. I probably won't purchase one for a few years but it's good to hear what other people think about the cars they drive. Thanks for taking time to tell me about your experience.
Raymond Brower Men neither I have retired a Third generation Acura legend 1996 Acura 3.2 TL one hell of a car. But my Bolt ( except for front driver seat- a lady friend gave me a curved top of the seat bolster which really helps a lot) is heaven. I could almost live in it! No shower though:-)
Another great video. I can see even with your frequent long distance trips and DCFC sessions battery degradation is minimal. I do hope GM will bring the infotainment updates to 2017 and 2018. My wife drives our first 2017 LT and I drive the 2018 Premiere and we always have them set in city mode for "hilltop reserve". We just did a long distance trip from Stillwater, MN to Milwaukee, WI and your videos are great training to make long distance stress free trips. 767 miles in a weekend :-)
Thanks! Yes, the updates would be great, but I'm guessing there might be some hardware differences. If it's just software, GM really should consider offering patches. That sounds like a great weekend trip! I'm glad my videos were helpful. :-)
Glenn Marston ][ If you update your infotainment you will lose the capability of watching video clips and movies on your screen from a USB flash drive ( mine works on MP4 at 720 P). I hate when a manufacturer thinks for me. I have never tried to watch videos while driving. I can reset the occasional glitch or blank screen on the infotainment system.
I recently watched a RUclips video called “Chevrolet Bolt Li-Ion Battery Deep Dive”, in which the demonstrator completely disassembled the battery pack from a 2017 Bolt. In the process, he read the ratings marked on each subassembly, and calculated the total to be 57 kV/hr. He was a bit surprised by this, as was I. Was this puffery by Chevrolet? Or maybe there is some engineering reason for the higher number. Did your methods give 60 kV/hr as your initial capacity? I is possible that you have not lost as much as you thought. I am a process server and put crazy miles on my car. I use a level 2 charger at home and typically go up to 85%- 90%. I have enough capacity to do my work about 90% of the time, but occasionally I have to get a little extra at a level 3. For the first month I owned the car, I hadn’t gotten the level 2, and used level 3 almost exclusively. My most common road trip is up to Flagstaff from Phoenix, about a 6,000 foot climb. I fill the battery all the way up, and don’t lose much regenerative breaking, since I am taking the freeway and climbing for quite a while before any downhill. Anyway, nice video. I hope you find this interesting or useful.
Bryan Curry I have been watching the videos from Weber University and Professor John Kelly is awesome in his analysis of all aspects of the 2017 Bolt EV. I actually just bought a used one 2 days ago, with low mileage, and I'm highly encouraged by the battery longevity data on this and other posts.
I'm betting when those batteries are new, they hold more than their rated capacity bringing the back up over 60 kw/h. I see that with my hobby batteries all the time.
Question: I park my leaf without plugging in. In the morning I plug it into my L2 supply. Do you think briefly hitting %100 SOC and driving away is as stressful as just charging to %100 overnight?
Thank you Eric (got the name right?) I have 2 Bolt EVs: 2019 and 2018 premiere editions. I took your advice from your last video regarding the 50k update and have kept hilltop reserve on for my 2018 and limit the charge on my 2019 to 90%. I never dcfc my cars and only use level 2 at home; I'm hoping my battery will see little degredation after 5 years of ownership. Once again thanks for the video update!
#1: The battery has an initial 57 kwh available capacity. #2: Virtually all lithium batteries initially drop close to 5% and then degradation becomes very level for a very long time. You're doing much better than you seem to think - especially given your very 'hard usage' (owner of 2017 Bolt 54k )
The 57 kWh rating was based solely on a sticker found on the battery case; however, GM stated that the actual capacity was 60 kWh in their EPA filing documents. Also, because I was able to track 60 kWh available over several charge cycles, my loss from my initial measurements (4.5 to 5 kWh) would indicate an 8% loss.
I have about 55,000 miles. I rarely charge it above 90%. Too bad I missed the software where I can charge it to any 5% I want but Hilltop Reserve is OK for me. Haven't noticed any degradation.
I believe GM estimates around 10% degradation over 100K miles. I don't think 8% over 70K miles is necessarily bad. It seems to be in line with what I would think of as reasonable degradation from a Automotive lithium ion pack. ICE cars lose roughly the same percent in MPG over 70K miles, so I don't think most consumers will be very worried by this. My mazda used to give 33 highway when brand new and dropped down to 30 at 72K miles.
@@newscoulomb3705 : How about talk to some high mileage owners with the Model S vehicles to give comparisons on if this kind of battery degradation is expected over 70K miles. I'm sure there will be many model S drivers who have reached this mileage by now, and you will have a wide field of drivers from those who put on miles over short duration vs longer duration.
I've watched a lot of your videos and appreciate your attention to detail. I'm on the verge of buying a new '19 Premier. I understand this video was focused on the battery degradation at 70k miles but would you mind sharing how the rest of the car is holding up after all these miles?
Ken Courtney If you want super fidelity in your infotainment system please do not get a premier ( blows system) an LT will give you holographic sound with good sources, the other won’t I am an audiophile and very picky on sound. I have just finished Artur Rubinstein Rachmaninov Piano Concerto no 2 with the Chicago Symphony. Heavenly! Like the orchestra hall is surrounding you. Also watching Gettysburg in Gallery the cannonade just before Picket’s Charge is phenomenal! You can tell instantly the characteristics of the Southern Guns versus the Northern guns. Listen to E Power Biggs Toccata and Fugue on pipe organ or “Amazing Grace” on massed bag pipes marvelous! I could say much more. Text me at 760-638-9580 and I can tell you how to get 330 miles of range.
Good video. Bolt owner here. Posatronic. 64,190.i have the first shipment of bolts to California and shipped to Lincoln NE. I am in a electric company(local) study that has the OBD2 device that links to a cell service to report my data. The data has my battery degradation at 5%. At 50,000 miles I have manually calculated the degradation at 3%. So I think they are both accurate numbers. I drive min 145 miles to 180 everyday. Don’t use hilltop and only have used dc fast chargers 4 times. I do however program the car to charge to full 30min to 1hr before I leave. I think everyone that uses hilltop and doesn’t go less than 20% battery charge is ok but from the reasearch I have read, leaving the battery at above 55% for a long time is worse on then battery. The same rule of old battery’s and all these new battery’s still applies: battery’s are meant to be charged and discharged all the time. With GM capping the top end and the bottom end of the battery I don’t feel you need to cap it more. Just don’t leave the battery at full for a long length of time. Also the heat seems to be a bigger factor also. Glad the battery has a thermal cooling system. I believe you stated you weren’t sure about dc fast charging contributing to the degradation. I don’t have any links but I believe the Tesla sites have stated the do affect the degradation of Tesla battery’s. One would assume they would affect the Bolts also. On Monday I’ll do another hand calculation and respond to this post and see how close it is to the OBD2 reader. I feel the degradation I have experience is fine like other people have stated for ice vehicles. My Saturn got 36 miles to the gallon at 30k and at 120k it was 31. That’s 14%. Seems like a lot of people say they don’t notice any degradation but they didn’t say they have done the math. Please use his math formula and calculate Always good to see numbers not, it looks ok?? Keep up the good videos. FYI my only dc fast charging was a 24 hrs 903 miles trip from Lincoln Ne to past St. Louis into Illinois and back.
Thanks, Nathan (Posatronic)! Nice to put a name to the ... err... Bolt Stats! name. :-) It's interesting to hear that you haven't had significant degradation even charging to 100%. I actually did start doing what you mentioned recently (I'll turn off Hilltop Reserve about an hour or so before I leave) so that the car doesn't sit at 100% for very long. I look forward to hearing your updates.
LRR tires are also very very important. We lost nearly 10 mpg on our Prius when we inadvertently purchased non (LRR) low rolling resistance Goodyear tires. I cannot emphasize enough how it will adversely effect range, especially important for EVs (we own a 2011 Leaf also). Most do not get the opportunity to compare as I did. Just beware, because most tire sellers don't even realize how dramatic it can be.
If you look at some of the 2017 Bolt Battery Take-Apart videos, I see that there are units that say "LG Version Vista 2.0, 57kWh Capacity" on the pack labeling. So your loss may actually be zero if the 2% movement from the SW upgrade is real. I am not sure if the pack labeling means 57 usable or 57 max though. Maybe a question for LG.
Yes, it's a confusing topic. The LG sticker says 57 kWh, but GM's EPA filing says 60 kWh. Jeff at ElectricRevs does a pretty good job of explaining it. electricrevs.com/2018/03/09/jaguar-and-chevy-have-lg-in-common/
Another great video...... I am a Hill top reserve in most case kind of guy and usually filling up around 20 percent so I will keep this in mind. Off topic question- 12,000 miles in 4.5 months already and I cant figure out how to lower the sound volume of the beeping noise when the car is on and a door is open. Is there a solution? My ears have a hard time with it. TIA
Yes, with 2012 Leaf at 70% SOH, I notice degradation because instead of max range of 84 mi, I only have 60 mi which obviously affects speed and ability to take long trips. With modern electric car with 200 mile range, even a 30% degradation would leave 160 miles wouldn’t affect ability to travel long distances with charging stations even 100 miles apart, even in winter.
My 2012 Leaf had degraded to 61% SOH by August of last year. With only about 48 miles of range I decided to replace the battery. It cost me $8200, but now it is essentially a new car with a better chemistry in the battery, and a range of about 85 miles in warm weather.
AND I’ve never done a level 3 quick charge on it! AND the capacity warrantee has expired, AND Nissan raised the cost of a battery replacement from $5000 to $8000 dollars + labor.
Unfortunately, I don't think so. You could try Torque Pro (an app) with an OBD2 reader, but I don't think it's very accurate. The Bolt EV's battery is just too big to do a quick and accurate test.
@@newscoulomb3705 Thanks Eric! What about this scenario: charging two Bolts to full charge. Same parking lot. One says max range 200, the other max range 240. Would you say the former likely experienced battery degradation?
@@jgfisch3 No, that still wouldn't work because the Bolt EV's range estimator is also based on historical driving. My Bolt EV is currently showing less than 200 miles on a full battery, but that's because I just got finished with a long, fast road trip at 70+ mph driving.
News Coulomb that is fantastic! Mine was changed at about 50,000 miles I think. I am 76 years young but the memory thing kinda goes south now and then. As Victor Borge says there are two things I can’t remember uhhh there are three things I can’t remember. Keep up the good work.
2017 Bolt, only charge on hilltop rarely go under 100 miles rage left. ~18k miles no degradation so far, did see a parameter change when GM tweaked my battery last year. Car is still perfect, no problems. Total cost charging, inspections and tire rotations is under $75 for 2 years but I do charge from my own PV which is paid off.
What do you see as a % when you use hilltop reserve? I only have 11,000 on my ‘18, and when I first started using it, I got 88% consistently, now it charges to 87%. I also noticed that after the software update, range is much more conservative.
Hi Eric, I watched your video a while ago but I'm back as I'm considering buying a high mileage Bolt EV. What do you mean when you say that you should plan to make legs of 120-150 miles on long trips? Is this the max range that you see at highway speeds? Thanks.
Yes , some people because of fear and uncertainty would want to get rid of their EV because of degradation. In reality the car is completely fine and will be for years to come.
My 6-month-old 2018 Bolt lost 40% of its battery capacity. The dealer said it checks out when they scanned it as all systems okay, but now I have a maximum of 138 miles which keeps me from driving to a city to which I frequently travel. The dealerships claimed it was due to cold weather but I store the car in a heated garage. Has anyone else faced this issue?
It's definitely due to the cold weather. Storing the vehicle in a heated garage helps, but if you are driving in cold weather at slow speeds with the heat blasting, it's going to estimate that you have a really low range. The estimate is based on recent energy consumption and outside temperatures. Are there any chargers you can access along your route? If there are, you should plan a trip with the expectation that you will need to charge up at least a little.
Jo Coles Demand they change the battery. If need be send a return receipt requested eyes only letter praising the Bolt and in passing that your battery is going bad. Tell me your results. Text 760-638-9580. Don’t trust your dealer, they have a big conflict of interest.
I just bought a 2019 yesterday. I was able to plug in my Bluetooth obd2, and get all the info I can with my Spark EV, except the capacity reads -8.6kwh. The PID csv file I have lists battery capacity at location 2241A3, using the calculation ((A*256)+B)/30. Is this the same as what you're using?
Great video! I would estimate based on reported degradation in Teslas that you will experience a slowdown in the rate of degradation. I will be interested in a follow-up video when you hit 100K or more. My guess is that you will still have great range when you hit 150k or 200k miles and the pack may last the life of the car.
Thanks! I've been getting more gentle with my battery usage over time. I wouldn't be surprised if my battery degradation from 75,000 miles to 150,000 miles will only be about half of what I've seen from 0 miles to 75,000 miles. So maybe 12% by 150,000 miles?
I'm a teacher, and I drive an absurd distance to get to work: 82 miles. That's 164 miles round trip. I make 184 trips in a year. I charge at home. I charge it up, presumably to 100%, since my "hilltop reserve" is always "off". I've had this car since June of 2017. I don't know how much I've lost. Not much, I'd say. I still get home and my guesstimator says "40 miles", or, if I've driven above 80 for long periods of time, it might get down to "30 miles" and turn orange. I don't really care, as long as i make it home. This is my second school year that I've been driving this thing to work and I've never had any issues that weren't my fault. (I've forgotten to charge up the night before a total of 3 times, which required me to go to an EVGO and fast charge). But anyway, the real test will be when it gets cold. In cold weather, the range goes down drastically. The first year, it got my attention, I'll be honest.
You always have the option of petitioning the school where you work to install chargers. Of course, just dropping your speed a little bit would also help ensure that you could make the trip easily.
Great video post. Question, if you leave your vehicle in Hilltop Reserve mode, even with the 8% loss that you have indicated, do you notice if there is an actual loss in range? Or, does Hilltop Reserve take off another 12% on top of the 8%?
The majority of the capacity loss I experienced might have been to the battery update as well. I experienced the same 2 kWh loss. The other issue with calculating degradation is the variability of capacity due to temperature. Warmer weather gives you higher capacity. I have 45,000 miles on my Bolt and people ask me how much range I have lost and I tell them about 5% since I bought the car. I haven't heard of ONE owner having bad degradation problems with the Bolt. I have heard of a few battery failures, but that is completely covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
@@newscoulomb3705 I think that it would be useful to take data on Torque Pro and temperature when you fully charge. That way you can try to take away another variable and see if the kWh reading is more reliable. I have seen this from my Bolt from the software update. Each bar is supposed to be about 3 kWh on the display. The bars on mine average about 2.7 kWh each until I reach 25%. Below 25% each bar is about 3.3 kWh. It is almost like they made the 25% a larger portion of the capacity so people would be less prone to being stranded. It could also just be my car...
Dan Chase Some first design batteries had problems. GM changed mine at 50,000 when I mentioned a small problem in my many many Bolt accolades to Mary Bara at GM.
Thanks! Degradation, even in the LEAF, will depend on the usage, but the same rules apply. Lots of DC fast charging and cycling through most of the battery regularly will make the LEAF's battery degrade more because it lacks a liquid thermal management system.
If you still have all that historical data, maybe on your next video you can include a plot of the usable capacity vs. miles driven. This way we can see if there are any trends that can be used to extrapolate future degradation. Thanks.
@@newscoulomb3705 Besides the slight battery degradation, how has the rest of the car held up? Any major repairs or unusual maintenance? Maybe a cost-of-ownership discussion would be a good topic for a future video.
Yes, I'll see what I can put together. There's really not much to it. All of the wear is from physical damage (outside forces). It would be more of a "War Wounds" video. Other than tires, windshield wipers/fluid, cabin filters... There's not much in the way of maintenance or cost of ownership. Just electricity.
Thanks for your informative video. Are you in Canada or America? EVs are really getting more popular recently. It’s great to see 👍🏻 How much would it cost to replace the battery and is it possible to upgrade the battery pack to a higher capacity or are you restricted to the exact same specifications?
I've seen the teardown video with the 57 kWh sticker; however, GM's EPA filing for the Bolt EV lists the battery as 60 kWh. Jeff's article also sheds some light. I would say it's complicated, but I've seen nothing (including from my own data) to counter GM's 60 kWh claim.
What ODB adapter should I buy? Also I will fit your ideal charging scenario for 80% of my driving. I should get my Bolt by the end of the month. I can gather the data from my use and share it with you if it will help you gain a better understanding of the battery. Mine will be a 2019 my daily commute is mostly 60 miles.
Oh, nice. Congratulations! I just got a cheap OBD2 reader. I think the only real requirement is Blutooth. The how-to on TorquePro and the PIDs has recommendations I believe. I can try to find the Google Sheets.
10:00 , the 55KW charge rate tapers off significantly after the SOC of the battery gets above 54% or so, and liquid cooled. So I really wouldn't think DC fast charging would cause much more wear than L2.
Yes, and most of my DC charging has been on the 50 kW chargers, which are less than 1 C charging rates. I really do think it's the deep cycling more than anything else.
OBD2 is an interface specification not a sensor. An OBD2 port, is a component that implements the part of OBD2 that describes the electrical specification.
Good video. Do you have a Second Design battery ? ( crawl under the car or raise it, look for a sticker on the right side of the back of the battery that reads TWO-see YT of dismantling a Bolt battery by weberauto)
David Drake The 1st and 2nd batteries have identical battery capacity. The 2nd design changed to use distinct male/female in and out coolant connections to reduce the chance of incorrect connections being made during manufacturing or repair.
Another great video - thank you. From watching all of your videos my guess would be you have used L3 284 times based on 70% of total miles driven. 73,000 * 70% or 51,100 miles; average kWh charged 45; miles per kWh 4.0 or 180 miles added per charge; 51,100 / 180 = 283.89 charges. Am I close?
I'm not sure. I might be able to tally, but I think it's fewer miles driven on DCFC, but more sessions. The number of sessions might not be a good metric, though. A better metric might be the total time spent DC fast charging. If I had to guess, at most, 50% of my miles are on DCFC. If so, and you estimate about 90 miles per 30 minutes (which is probably pretty close), I've spent about 200 hours DC fast charging. That would probably equal closer to 300 to 350 sessions.
That 100,000 miles is going to come quick, though I'm almost exclusively using Hilltop Reserve Mode now. I expect to see a decrease in the rate of degradation moving forward. I'd be surprised if it is more than 12% by 150,000 miles.
Erick Belmer has about 445K on his 2012 Chevy Volt with about 160K from wall power. Has significant degradation but still usable. 4000 full charge cycles equivalent or so. Chevy batteries are reliable www.greencarreports.com/news/1112485_2012-chevy-volt-has-now-crossed-400000-miles-range-remains-steady
I think if GM reprogrammed the BMS to decrease available KWH they would need to update the EPA range. Did your range actually decrease or did you just get an indication that you are using less kWh?
Yes, and that's why I don't think it was actually capacity loss. I think it is most likely one of two things. 1) A couple early estimates (less than 5,000 miles) showed as much as 62 kWh usable, so the system might have been less accurate (off by about 3%). 2) The Bolt EV used to stop when it hit 0%. They might have shifted so that you still have 2 kWh when the battery goes to 0%. Either way, those are just a couple of guesses. I'm not sure we'll know for sure either way.
News Coulomb, I think when Weber Auto did the Bolt battery teardown, the battery said 57 kWh. Of course that figure varies with discharge rate. Some Chinese batteries manufacturers use 1/20 C to get extra capacity rating, which would not be realistic for an EV. What does GM go by for their 40% degradation warranty? Miles range or kWh delivered?
Would you share the specific calculations that you do to correlate the charger information with OBD2 information? I have a new Bolt and would like to track the battery. My home L2 charger displays energy transferred at the end of charging session. That number does not account for AC -> DC conversion though. I have seen 86.5% stated as the efficiency. So I'm assuming that you project capacity from the % charge delta gathered from OBD2 relative to de-rated energy in? For example, if the charger displays 36kWh in to go from 38% to 92.9% (delta of 54.9 %) this would imply (capacity)*.549 = 36 * .865. This reduces to a usable capacity of 56.7 kWh. Am I on the right track?
It sounds like you're asking for DC fast charging efficiency, but I haven't correlated the data between the charger and the OBD2 readings. I might have captured enough data to do so, but I haven't actually calculated the difference. According to the EPA filing documents, GM states that the Bolt EV's L2 AC charger is 88% efficient. I believe DCFC are in the 90-95% efficiency range (though you might end up seeing additional losses due to battery conditioning). So using your L2, I would get 57.7 kWh, or about 4% degradation from 60 kWh.
NEW 2019 BOLT owner here. I currently use 120 volt/12 amp charging in my garage. I am thinking of getting a 240 volt/32 amp continuous level 2 charger. Will this accelerate my battery degradation ?
I’m only at 8,500 miles and usually only charge between 20% and 85%, I have not noticed a change in available range. The only time I charge to 100% is in January and February when the car emails me to plug me in it’s cold out here! You are tough testing your Bolt! Are you trying to catch up with that Volt with 400K miles?
I would say that even in winter, you might not want to charge to 100% unless you absolutely need the range. Using something like Hilltop Reserve Mode will treat the battery like it's full when it's at 88%, so that might be an option. There's no way I can catch up to Sparkie! lol But this is just my standard use case. I really need an EV with a minimum of 150 miles of range just for my daily driving needs. I was burning way too much gas in my Volt, so it didn't make sense. Even still, between the two Volts I've had and the Bolt EV, I've logged nearly 130,000 miles just on electricity in the last five years.
I have about 4k miles on mine and I charge it to 100% every 2 weeks via Level 2. Just wondering if that's ok? I will probably keep this for the rest of my life.
eBoarder75 I have heard many sources claim it is best to not charge a lithium ion battery all the way to 100% or discharge to 0% on a regular basis. But I don’t know why other than it decreases the life span.
@@My2JZandMe no. Another thing is you overcharge the battery when degenerative braking or have no degenerative braking at full capacity. That's kinda what the name for the hill top reserve came from.
I feel 2% better now. 88% is better than 90% for battery preservation. My display shows 18 bars (or maybe it's only 17 bars, I'll have to recount) on the GOM which would be 90%. Please tell me where on the display does it show 88%? Thanks.
Good video. One comment is another variable that was left out is that battery pack temperature can also affect the amount of usable energy available. The Bolt EV's TMS seems to only maintain a battery pack temperature above 40F (4C). The usable energy at 40F is noticeably different then at 80F for example. Us in Canada (and other cooler climates) also see much reduced initial DCFC charge rates when the battery pack is a lower temperatures (again to protect the battery). These charge rates increase as the battery pack warms up.
Yes, and part of the reason I said "approximately" 55.5 kWh usable is a variation of +/- 1 kWh, and it does seem to be seasonal (i.e., I actually see higher capacity estimates at lower temperatures).
Yes. I live in MN and notice that range under 50F goes from 200+ miles to 160-180 miles. HVAC usage (especially heat) and battery temp do make a difference. I had a Leaf before our two Bolts (yes, we are lucky no ICE cars at all) and like the resistive heat the Bolt has, whereas the Leaf had a heat pump. Even at the expense of range, when I want to be comfortable I can be. The Leaf would struggle to make heat when it was sub-zero temps.
You'll still see degradation, but it will be to a much smaller degree. Though I can only guess what the difference might be. A Bolt EV with a "babied" battery might see as little as half the degradation I've seen at 70,000 miles.
Thanks, but I should have been more explicit. In terms of battery cell balancing and not charging to 100% or the GOM not being as accurate if the pack never gets a 100% charge.
Oh, I don't think that would negatively affect the pack. It seems like the battery starts doing cell balancing well before 100%, but that's just based on my observations. I think we'd need to ask someone from GM to know for sure.
With a total 425 miles on my Bolt. I have seen 0% degradation. I have been trying to set my charge limit to 80%. But for some reason it keeps charging to 95%. (Factory default) I will have to call Chevy for some help.
I’m at 45k miles in one year rarely fast charge but charge full everyday with a 7k watt charger from half to full. hill top is only if you drive down hell from where your charging so you don’t over charge. The battery has its own shut off point at 100% just like it has a cut off point when too low so it won’t damage the battery. I haven’t lost any miles everyday I get home same exact miles 170 unless there’s traffic it says up to 190 best car I’ve ever gotten already saved me 6k in gas no maintenance and 10,000 in rebates
Yes. Keep in mind, though, that GM's range estimator is a projection and not based on battery health (like Tesla's). It's really difficult to measure capacity on a Bolt EV.
Also FYI the up down that you're seeing in the app is due to temperature variations if it's colder you're going to lose range and how much the battery can hold likewise if it's super freaking hot batteries are made to run it at an optimal temperature until we get solid state batteries. 2004 baby will be the year the first electric car using a solid-state battery is slated to release here's hoping they don't push it back
Leaf/spark/Tesla owner here. (Gonna sell one soon) I bet many leafs may have that original bms issue. I'm thinking ill take mine to turtle and charge full. (Replaced battery in 2017 and it's already lost 5ish percent according to leafspy). We took it on a road trip tho and did nothing but chademo charging and it gained 1.5 percent capacity.... so yeah.Your degradationt is pretty good all things considered. We bought a used Tesla model S. 85kwh model. It reads 252 epa rated miles at full charge. It's a 2013. We mainly charge to 70 and 80 percent max... If your considering getting rid of your bolt, that supercharger speed is nice. You know the numbers. That degradation tho for your bolt.... Not bad.... Not bad at all. Thanks for sharing this! I am a fan of that hiltop Reserve mode. I have not heard about this termination mode you speak of until this video... Very nice. Keep on uploading!
You have not been clear about your initial conditions ? Have you checked the initial 60KWH ? Your degradation should be measured from the initial, which is certainly not 60KWH. or I misunderstood what you said. The best way to protect a battery it to make it bounce around 75 %, and also 75% is the ideal long term storage level. Depending on your trips, you should work as much as possible in a symmetrical from 75% point. If you plan to use 50% you can charge to 100% and arrive at 50%. You can charge to 100% if you use the vehicle right away. Making it sleep at 100% will degrade it. Like making it sleep at 0%. At a cell level best practice is to charge up to 4V and no more (that is more than 92% anyway). it is the TIME SPENT AT 100% or 0% that degrade the battery. Running it down to zero is not the worst as long as you do not do hard accelerations below 15% ans as long as you charge it immediately and not let it sit overnight with close to zero %. It is likely that the buffer is at the bottom, most manufacturers will reduce speed and acceleration of the car at some point in the low %. I think below 1C is mostly harmless, you see the KW go down as % go up. If you bounce the battery only inside the % bracket where it charge at 1C well there you might degrade it faster, but again this is more a question of TIME SPENT AWAY from 50-75% bracket. (NOTE: my 100% is 4.00 Volts per cell )
@@newscoulomb3705 ok, great! so the number for degradation you find is degradation + a little buffer added by the software update. That is really not bad considering the usage regimen.
here is 1 thing alot of ppl get wrong . would be nice if you made a video about this.. some still dont under stand regenerative braking very well and that it can play games when finding battery degradation . 1 when using regenerative braking down lets say a 10 miles long hill and lets say you see 2 or 3 miles go back into the battery some think they only got 3 miles for there work and feel the system sucks but fail to add the 10 miles as its all so free run time on the car .so in the in the regenerative braking added 13 miles . 2 when trying to get the most range from a EV coasting as long as you can as free coast time adds up faster then added regenerative braking battery range .this is why the gen 1 volts and gen 1 Tesla had a harder regenerative braking but as they found gliding got more range they pulling the regenerative braking back. 3 when looking for battery degradation some well charge to full and look at miles driven and giving regenerative braking can add or take away many miles from a 200+ mile rang EV . so if your the type to use regenerative braking really hard to try to push as much power as you can into the battery as fast as you can then your doing it all wrong .
its 20 percent to 80 percent Thats the optimum charging amount. You should still have no issue as most commutes are only 30 miles or less. Thats very attainable. Plug it in at night and you should be fine. No need for excessive charging. If you do alot of long trips and most dont then you need to be aware of the percentages most of the time its a simple calculation
Have you seen the Bolt videos on *weberAuto?* They have some really interesting videos. I really liked the *Bolt Motor Deep Dive* video. The motor and drive system look really well designed. I'm a fan of the Bolt but I've never been in one. I'm 6'2" and 240 lbs. From some of the Bolt videos I've seen I get the impression I might have a hard time fitting in the Bolts seats. Thanks for sharing your experience. I may need to wait until Chevy builds a roomier car using the Bolt motor before getting an EV myself.
Yeah, I think any EV with proper thermal management should see similarly low degradation if the owner doesn't cycle the full battery. I think even 10% to 90% would be fine, and result in far less degradation than what I've seen.
If you mostly charge from home I would expect your degradation would be less than shown here. Most Bolts won't be anywhere near 70,000 miles by now and with limited fast charging will probably still be usable for at least a decade.
My concern is with battery degradation due to ambient temperature. I live in desert SW and summer day temps avg 115 and night about 95. l don't have a usable garage to cool car in at night, so my concern is that batty will degrade much faster in this environment.
Heat definitely has an impact, but I think that as long as most of your charging is done at night, it should be fine. Actually, not being in a garage is better than being in a garage that's not air condition.
With the Chevy Bolt or Volt, the battery is liquid cooled and heated. As long as it is plugged in, it should keep the battery pack at less than 90 Fahrenheit. If you can keep it plugged in whenever you aren't driving then it'll be just fine.
Eric - when used as a daily driver, I’d think that you’d need to create a specific situation that you’d subject the car to - once every year, or after another X miles - in order to determine the battery degradation. When I drive from 30 to 90 miles per day in my average week, obviously I don’t see any degradation that has occurred in the 21k miles that my Bolt has accumulated to date. The range of the 60 kWh battery is just that great, and my car so far hasn’t been used for much extended travel, since that’s just not yet practical in my region. Being in Michigan, my car is exposed to greater temp extreme on the cold side than yours, and outside temperature (and climate usage) matters a lot when estimating the range which a full battery contains. I wonder what effect that using a (50 kWh) fast charger on a cold battery has, when the initial charging speed starts out in the low teens and ramps up to 35 kWh charge rate 10 to 20 minutes later? What’s going on inside that battery as it warms up - perhaps too quickly? L2 chargers still deliver their maximum into a cold battery, so there must be significant resistance to taking on a fast charge when the battery is cold. Maybe fast charging a cold battery is worse than fast charging when the outside temp approaches 100 F? My typical at home charge ends at approximately 88% that HTR turns off the charger at. But is this 88% reference point consistent over the life of the vehicle that I could use it as a starting point when running a battery capacity test? I’d like to think that my battery hasn’t degraded at all in the 14 months that my Bolt has existed (with the huge range that it has, it’s certainly not apparent) but I’m sure there’s a real number. And that number isn’t a loss of how many miles of range, since that can change a lot with driving speed, terrain, ambient temperature and climate control usage. It’s more that the battery is now effectively smaller, which that capacity will only provide a certain maximum range, which is less than what it was when the car was new, but in a Bolt, it’s still a lot of miles. Perhaps you have a route which you can take where you may start with a 100% or perhaps an 88% battery and then proceed to run the charge down to near 0% and use that data for a battery capacity calculation. Or perhaps with your extended (but predictable) weekend travels you do have a gap between chargers which permits you to perform a capacity test when the temp and wind conditions are comparable to the last time that you ran such a test? 60 kWh allows you to cover a lot of ground during such a test, so I’d think you’d want to make the time spent on that sort of trip somewhat useful, vs. a lengthy but simple day trip where you end up where you started. Our public chargers are too widely spaced yet to permit me to run such a test without a risk of running the car down near 0% charge, but perhaps I am able to construct a trip which would cover up to 50 or more kWh and offer minimal risk of bricking the car as the charge level approaches 0%. Considering how frequently that you seem to push yours on the bottom end of the battery, I’d be pretty pleased to know that only 8% drop off has occurred to date on your Bolt. That’s pretty encouraging for the rest of us. Do you ever charge it to 100% and let it soak for a couple of hours to balance out the cells? That may be beneficial for capacity too. Thanks for sharing your data/experiences.
I heard computer reprogramming so many times. In our not so distanced past, we called this cheating. VW got in trouble when they "re-programmed" their diesel cars 5 years ago. Since EPA has their hands off policy and no regulations on electric vehicles, dealers can do whatever their want. Basically, "Re-programmed" the hell out of the computer to show favorable numbers to the consumers. Bottom line, I don't trust the dealers. Too much bureaucracy with too little integrity. That is why I am sticking with my Internal combustion vehicle until our government put some regulations on Electric vehicles. With the ICE vehicles, dealers are less daring to temper with the computer because people can easily find out and they can get into a lot of trouble for it.
Didn't you just list a number of internal combustion vehicles that were tampered with? In this case, the reprogramming was very clear: It allows GM to diagnose and fix faulty battery cells/modules before they cause their owners grief. It's a good thing.
Please let your subscribers and other EV advocates know that (it seems) GM has developed, and is field testing what is believed to be a 120Kw battery pack. If possible, perhaps you can calculate the exact kW capacity of this battery based on this GM release from a few days ago: https (:) //media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2018/oct/sema/1029-e-copo.html .. In your opinion, what would be the range of such a pack in different types of vehicles? Bolt EV size, "Camaro" size, SUV size, etc? Edit: more detail: gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/chevrolet-teases-possible-electric-crate-motor-with-ecopo-camaro/
I love the content of this video, and your efforts to help others in understanding the Chevrolet Volt. However the playing of Taps at the beginning of the video is unnecessarily callous and disrespectful. I am sure this was done simply due to ignorance and not intentional malice, and I can only ask that you try to be more considerate in the future.
Thank you for your feedback and concern. I am not aware of any etiquette regarding Taps, as it predates official use in Military ceremonies. While symbolic of funerals, it was originally used to announce the close of the day. My Bolt EV, by no small coincidence, is named "Nightfall."
@@newscoulomb3705 I don't mean to be a jerk, it is your video and you can do what ever you want with it of course. Especially when going out of your way to help others. However it is an emotional gut punch hearing it unprepared. And use of the song in public is often used to mock and belittle the mourning of service members. Judging by the strangely high number of downvotes on this helpful video, I would not be surprised if others got the same reaction from it.
You battery degradation is a bit high, but still normal. Correcting for the 2 KWh after the software update, it is what I see from other EV owners with the same mileage. You should have mentioned that battery degradation DECREASES over time. So, you will never drop below 90%. I do not have an EV. Very recently I saw that in my street a public charger was placed. That is good, only 100 yards away from my home. I cannot charge at my home (no parking of my own). Still, there are two more problems. One is my extreme range anxiety (I fill up my petrol when tank is still 40% full for my own comfort) and the loss of battery capacity in winter. That can mount to 50% and that is completely unacceptable for me. I could not commute in winter and I would need a psych for my range anxiety then.
Vasileios Petropoulos - If the loss were linear with driven miles, that means he would reach 30% degradation - a level that could start to cause problems I would guess - at 270,000 miles. If you extrapolate that as the useful life of the battery, I think it compares favorably with the life expectancy of the engine of a consumer-grade ICE vehicle.
We can’t charge to 100% or let it go down to 0% And can’t be using rapid fast chargers all the time? My head hurts. Does it go for ego mowers as well? Just bought one recently and they include a rapid fast charger so I can’t be using it then? I should get the slow charger then? Someone help me!! Batteries for ego cost over $200. Way better than a Chevy volt battery but it’s still $200 lol. Love my ego mower btw!! EV vehicle is another story. I don’t know.
I'm guessing you're being sarcastic. Like any machine, it will wear out over time; however, how you use it will determine its lifespan. Off-road vehicles and race cars don't last as long as daily commuters. Same rule applies to batteries.
If you deplete your battery all the way to 3 miles in range and slowly charge it on a level 2 all the way to 100% twice a month. Your battery will last longer and improve in your range. Try not fully charge your car on DC fast charger. If you precondition your car in the winter time while plugged in on a level 2 your battery it help out on range also. I did the same thing on my Nissan Leaf ,my Chevy Bolt,my Chevy Volt my Fiat 500e. All have over 70 thousand miles besides my bolt. All still have over 90% battery charge. My 2013 leaf still gets 98 miles per charge. Fiat still get 93 miles my 2013 volt still 41 miles n and my bolt still gets 245 miles. I only use the DC fast charger as a last resort.
Bolt battery is actually 57kWh 350.4 volt 162.7 Ah vice the 60Kwhr... Per this disassembly video. ruclips.net/video/ssU2mjiNi_Q/видео.html so that should decrease your calculation of actual degradation calculation.
Well, actually no. ICE cars do not lose 8% in 100.000 miles. Maybe 30 years ago they did. But not anymore. Unless something is worn. That is where the EV is good. There is very little that can wear.
So he's saying try to run your battery between 40% and 80% charge. Which means your 60KWh battery becomes a 24 KWh battery. Might as well just buy a hybrid vehicle which just happens to use it's battery between 40% and 80% automatically.
Actually, no, that's not what I'm saying. I am referring to is the spectrum of battery use that results in the least degradation over time. My video shows that it doesn't really matter, and that many drivers could possibly see hundreds of thousands of miles out of their Bolt EVs before seeing degradation significant enough to warrant replacing the battery.
Your Torque App and DC fast chargers both get the percentage of battery from the BMS, so that's normal infos are similar. I found that my I-Miev is weirdly programmed, because I don't get the same information from the charger and from the App. The car is programmed to cut the charging when battery reach 80%, accurate on the App, but chargers always show 82% at the same moment. So the higher the state of charge, the higher it's off on the charger. Maybe it was design this way to trick people into thinking the charging is faster than it actualy is. Don'tknow...
@@JohnSmith-ug5ci Gas cars pollute the environment, put us at risk for oil spills and bend our foreign / military / economic policy towards securing more of the planet's diminishing oil reserves. Electric cars do not have these problems.
How so? Would you have expected less degradation in their described "~30,000 km/year and 1 DCFC/week"? It looks to me like lots of DCFC might have only caused you to lose about 10-20% more than you would have with fewer fast charges, and maybe less since the values were measured differently. I interpret this as: be nice to your battery when convenient, but don't also feel guilty about a few DCFC for a road trip. You are having some impact, but not a lot.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Excellent experience and transfer of information video. After 10,000 miles in my Bolt EV LT I still getting over 300 miles average on the GOM and a rate over 6.0 miles/kwh without ac charging at Hill Top Reserve or 280 miles average with ac and 5.5 miles/kwh. In Puerto Rico ambient temperatures range from 80 to 92 degree F. "Outside temperature" gauge always are in green area (between 3.8 to 5.0). Allways charge at 12 amp and 110 volt charger in my house garage. Slow charging is my theory of preserving the battery life.
Thanks! Yes, definitely slower charging and maintaining the top 12% of your battery as a buffer will reduce your battery degradation significantly.
I agree I turn off hilltop reserve on top of a 5600 foot mountain with roads of 8% to 10% grade and charge at 12Amps for 8 to 10 hours. I consistently end up with 300 miles of range when I enter the outskirts of Escondido CA.
How long does it take to charge with 12a 110v?
You gain about 4 miles per hour on 12a charging
There is no higher playback speed than 2X in RUclips.. :(
Keeping it plugged in in very hot or cold weather is also supposed to help because there is active temperature management that keeps the batteries within a specific range.
Nice well covered, and thought out presentation Eric. Your real world analysis is nice to consistently rely upon and your tips on saving the battery is spot on. Thx for sharing
I drive a Bolt Ev and I also had the software update. Immediately after I left the dealership I noticed that the range was significantly lowered even though the level of charge stayed at the same level. Chevrolet indicated that the software update was to essentially provide a more accurate range and prevent people from getting stuck on the side of the road....so based on my experience and now confirmed by this video, I do believe that your actual degradation may be of 5 or 6 kw. You have owned the Bolt for far longer than I have so you lived with the previous mod for far longer therefore that's why you wonder if this degradation is much more than it really is.....which is a good thing! Great video! Thanks!
45,600 miles on my 17 Bolt. DC fastcharge 0, hilltop reserve on all the time excepth 1 full charge per month to keep the mothballs out of the battery. Never let the battery go down to less than 40 miles. So far degredation is unnoticeable. Drive 161 miles a day during the week roundtrip. Times in the shop other than the 1 software upgrade 0. Flat out most reliable car i have ever owned so far. The Bolt has already beat my traded in 16 Camry Hybrid in reliability. Would I buy another one...absolutely yes! Because I never get tired of driving it....but it sounds like it might be awhile before I need another one...
Phil Atomic you drive a LOT!
Dude! I drive 164 miles a day! Wow. And yes, I haven't really noticed much degradation at all. So far, so good. This is my second year of "thrashing" it. Oh, i drive to work in the desert. Hot ass desert. No problems. In fact, the indicator says it basically LIKES the warm weather.
We have great expectations for the reliability, safety and incredible longevity / life span of the Bolt EV --- easily in excess of 500K , an advancement in itself.
Do you drive on the highway for your commute?
Another very informative video. So glad to see a guest appearance by the orange hat & thanks for taking so much time out of your day to educate us all.
Thanks!
As the Orange Hat says, "Winter is coming!" 😁
This is a great video - thanks for all your contributions to bolt EV knowledge base. I really enjoy your videos about the logistics of long distance trips.
Thanks!
@@newscoulomb3705 Try my trick out for A few months and see if it helps. My channel will tell you how to install this cheap and easy modification.
Also have A twenty year old battery on my channel and other old batteries that I have not filmed yet.
The long and short of it is...EV batteries are as reliable as any ICE range. My Honda did not get the same mpg after 75K. So, no biggie. I love my current electric car. I'll never go back to gas if possible.
Electrics sure seem like a good idea. What kind do you have?
The channel *weberAuto* has some really interesting videos where they take about electric vehicles. The *Bolt Motor Deep Dive* video has been my favorite in the series.
Duane Degn the Bolt is very nice. I have a 2017 Kia Soul EV. I got a great lease, $152/month $0 down for 36 months with 10k miles/year. I use it to commute in the NY area. I drive about 9k miles a year and absolutely love it. It has every tech gadget available. I charge at home and wake up to a full charge every morning. The range is 93 miles, over 100 miles in summer and about 70 in the winter with the heat and heated seats on full.
@@raymondbrower7894 Thanks for the detailed reply. I figure my next car will be an EV. I probably won't purchase one for a few years but it's good to hear what other people think about the cars they drive. Thanks for taking time to tell me about your experience.
Raymond Brower Men neither I have retired a Third generation Acura legend 1996 Acura 3.2 TL one hell of a car. But my Bolt ( except for front driver seat- a lady friend gave me a curved top of the seat bolster which really helps a lot) is heaven. I could almost live in it! No shower though:-)
Another great video. I can see even with your frequent long distance trips and DCFC sessions battery degradation is minimal. I do hope GM will bring the infotainment updates to 2017 and 2018. My wife drives our first 2017 LT and I drive the 2018 Premiere and we always have them set in city mode for "hilltop reserve". We just did a long distance trip from Stillwater, MN to Milwaukee, WI and your videos are great training to make long distance stress free trips. 767 miles in a weekend :-)
Thanks!
Yes, the updates would be great, but I'm guessing there might be some hardware differences. If it's just software, GM really should consider offering patches.
That sounds like a great weekend trip! I'm glad my videos were helpful. :-)
Glenn Marston ][ If you update your infotainment you will lose the capability of watching video clips and movies on your screen from a USB flash drive ( mine works on MP4 at 720 P). I hate when a manufacturer thinks for me. I have never tried to watch videos while driving. I can reset the occasional glitch or blank screen on the infotainment system.
I recently watched a RUclips video called “Chevrolet Bolt Li-Ion Battery Deep Dive”, in which the demonstrator completely disassembled the battery pack from a 2017 Bolt. In the process, he read the ratings marked on each subassembly, and calculated the total to be 57 kV/hr. He was a bit surprised by this, as was I. Was this puffery by Chevrolet? Or maybe there is some engineering reason for the higher number. Did your methods give 60 kV/hr as your initial capacity? I is possible that you have not lost as much as you thought.
I am a process server and put crazy miles on my car. I use a level 2 charger at home and typically go up to 85%- 90%. I have enough capacity to do my work about 90% of the time, but occasionally I have to get a little extra at a level 3. For the first month I owned the car, I hadn’t gotten the level 2, and used level 3 almost exclusively. My most common road trip is up to Flagstaff from Phoenix, about a 6,000 foot climb. I fill the battery all the way up, and don’t lose much regenerative breaking, since I am taking the freeway and climbing for quite a while before any downhill.
Anyway, nice video. I hope you find this interesting or useful.
Bryan Curry I have been watching the videos from Weber University and Professor John Kelly is awesome in his analysis of all aspects of the 2017 Bolt EV. I actually just bought a used one 2 days ago, with low mileage, and I'm highly encouraged by the battery longevity data on this and other posts.
I'm betting when those batteries are new, they hold more than their rated capacity bringing the back up over 60 kw/h. I see that with my hobby batteries all the time.
I’m probably going to get an ev in a few years so much thanks for your updates.
Question: I park my leaf without plugging in. In the morning I plug it into my L2 supply. Do you think briefly hitting %100 SOC and driving away is as stressful as just charging to %100 overnight?
Based on what I've read, charging up to 100% for a short period is less stressful than letting the battery sit at 100% for a longer period.
Thank you Eric (got the name right?)
I have 2 Bolt EVs: 2019 and 2018 premiere editions.
I took your advice from your last video regarding the 50k update and have kept hilltop reserve on for my 2018 and limit the charge on my 2019 to 90%.
I never dcfc my cars and only use level 2 at home; I'm hoping my battery will see little degredation after 5 years of ownership.
Once again thanks for the video update!
Thanks! Congratulations on your twin Bolt EVs! I'm sure they'll be doing great in 5 years.
#1: The battery has an initial 57 kwh available capacity. #2: Virtually all lithium batteries initially drop close to 5% and then degradation becomes very level for a very long time. You're doing much better than you seem to think - especially given your very 'hard usage' (owner of 2017 Bolt 54k )
The 57 kWh rating was based solely on a sticker found on the battery case; however, GM stated that the actual capacity was 60 kWh in their EPA filing documents. Also, because I was able to track 60 kWh available over several charge cycles, my loss from my initial measurements (4.5 to 5 kWh) would indicate an 8% loss.
How to avoid buying a used Bolt with badly degraded battery? Any advice
I have about 55,000 miles. I rarely charge it above 90%. Too bad I missed the software where I can charge it to any 5% I want but Hilltop Reserve is OK for me. Haven't noticed any degradation.
Yeah, I suppose it's too much to ask for an OTA. 😁
Just got a new Bolt. Wow, it’s a blast to drive. That’s for all the valuable information
You're welcome!
That's awesome. Congratulations on your new Bolt EV! Enjoy. :-)
New research has shown that you don't have to charge to 80%, and can routinely charge to 100% without damaging the battery.
Brian Foster source
I believe GM estimates around 10% degradation over 100K miles. I don't think 8% over 70K miles is necessarily bad. It seems to be in line with what I would think of as reasonable degradation from a Automotive lithium ion pack.
ICE cars lose roughly the same percent in MPG over 70K miles, so I don't think most consumers will be very worried by this. My mazda used to give 33 highway when brand new and dropped down to 30 at 72K miles.
Yes. I'd really like to hear from some other high mileage Bolt EV owners to compare experiences.
@@newscoulomb3705 : How about talk to some high mileage owners with the Model S vehicles to give comparisons on if this kind of battery degradation is expected over 70K miles. I'm sure there will be many model S drivers who have reached this mileage by now, and you will have a wide field of drivers from those who put on miles over short duration vs longer duration.
My 2015 model S 70D is at 69k miles has lost a little over 3% but that's been with babying the battery
I've watched a lot of your videos and appreciate your attention to detail. I'm on the verge of buying a new '19 Premier. I understand this video was focused on the battery degradation at 70k miles but would you mind sharing how the rest of the car is holding up after all these miles?
Ken Courtney If you want super fidelity in your infotainment system please do not get a premier ( blows system) an LT will give you holographic sound with good sources, the other won’t I am an audiophile and very picky on sound. I have just finished Artur Rubinstein Rachmaninov Piano Concerto no 2 with the Chicago Symphony. Heavenly! Like the orchestra hall is surrounding you. Also watching Gettysburg in Gallery the cannonade just before Picket’s Charge is phenomenal! You can tell instantly the characteristics of the Southern Guns versus the Northern guns. Listen to E Power Biggs Toccata and Fugue on pipe organ or “Amazing Grace” on massed bag pipes marvelous! I could say much more. Text me at 760-638-9580 and I can tell you how to get 330 miles of range.
Good video. Bolt owner here. Posatronic. 64,190.i have the first shipment of bolts to California and shipped to Lincoln NE. I am in a electric company(local) study that has the OBD2 device that links to a cell service to report my data. The data has my battery degradation at 5%. At 50,000 miles I have manually calculated the degradation at 3%. So I think they are both accurate numbers.
I drive min 145 miles to 180 everyday. Don’t use hilltop and only have used dc fast chargers 4 times. I do however program the car to charge to full 30min to 1hr before I leave. I think everyone that uses hilltop and doesn’t go less than 20% battery charge is ok but from the reasearch I have read, leaving the battery at above 55% for a long time is worse on then battery. The same rule of old battery’s and all these new battery’s still applies: battery’s are meant to be charged and discharged all the time. With GM capping the top end and the bottom end of the battery I don’t feel you need to cap it more. Just don’t leave the battery at full for a long length of time. Also the heat seems to be a bigger factor also. Glad the battery has a thermal cooling system.
I believe you stated you weren’t sure about dc fast charging contributing to the degradation. I don’t have any links but I believe the Tesla sites have stated the do affect the degradation of Tesla battery’s. One would assume they would affect the Bolts also. On Monday I’ll do another hand calculation and respond to this post and see how close it is to the OBD2 reader. I feel the degradation I have experience is fine like other people have stated for ice vehicles. My Saturn got 36 miles to the gallon at 30k and at 120k it was 31. That’s 14%.
Seems like a lot of people say they don’t notice any degradation but they didn’t say they have done the math. Please use his math formula and calculate Always good to see numbers not, it looks ok??
Keep up the good videos.
FYI my only dc fast charging was a 24 hrs 903 miles trip from Lincoln Ne to past St. Louis into Illinois and back.
Thanks, Nathan (Posatronic)! Nice to put a name to the ... err... Bolt Stats! name. :-)
It's interesting to hear that you haven't had significant degradation even charging to 100%. I actually did start doing what you mentioned recently (I'll turn off Hilltop Reserve about an hour or so before I leave) so that the car doesn't sit at 100% for very long.
I look forward to hearing your updates.
So calculating by hand for yesterday I get 56.54. So 3.5 % loss. So maybe my OMD2 report may not be as accurately doing by hand similar to yours.
LRR tires are also very very important. We lost nearly 10 mpg on our Prius when we inadvertently purchased non (LRR) low rolling resistance Goodyear tires.
I cannot emphasize enough how it will adversely effect range, especially important for EVs (we own a 2011 Leaf also).
Most do not get the opportunity to compare as I did. Just beware, because most tire sellers don't even realize how dramatic it can be.
Yes. It's especially important for EVs because rolling resistance makes up a greater percentage of their energy usage.
If you look at some of the 2017 Bolt Battery Take-Apart videos, I see that there are units that say "LG Version Vista 2.0, 57kWh Capacity" on the pack labeling. So your loss may actually be zero if the 2% movement from the SW upgrade is real. I am not sure if the pack labeling means 57 usable or 57 max though. Maybe a question for LG.
Yes, it's a confusing topic. The LG sticker says 57 kWh, but GM's EPA filing says 60 kWh.
Jeff at ElectricRevs does a pretty good job of explaining it. electricrevs.com/2018/03/09/jaguar-and-chevy-have-lg-in-common/
Another great video...... I am a Hill top reserve in most case kind of guy and usually filling up around 20 percent so I will keep this in mind. Off topic question- 12,000 miles in 4.5 months already and I cant figure out how to lower the sound volume of the beeping noise when the car is on and a door is open. Is there a solution? My ears have a hard time with it. TIA
Yes, with 2012 Leaf at 70% SOH, I notice degradation because instead of max range of 84 mi, I only have 60 mi which obviously affects speed and ability to take long trips. With modern electric car with 200 mile range, even a 30% degradation would leave 160 miles wouldn’t affect ability to travel long distances with charging stations even 100 miles apart, even in winter.
Yes, for me, 150 miles is the minimum range before it becomes an inconvenience for me in my day-to-day driving.
My 2012 Leaf had degraded to 61% SOH by August of last year. With only about 48 miles of range I decided to replace the battery. It cost me $8200, but now it is essentially a new car with a better chemistry in the battery, and a range of about 85 miles in warm weather.
My 2012 Nissan Leaf with 49,450 miles on it has lost 40% of its capacity, can’t wait to get a Bolt!!!
Oh, wow. That's a lot.
AND I’ve never done a level 3 quick charge on it! AND the capacity warrantee has expired, AND Nissan raised the cost of a battery replacement from $5000 to $8000 dollars + labor.
I'm sorry hear that. Have you heard of Fenix Power? They claim to be offering battery replacements that are thermally managed.
Dru Betts Wow!
Eric, any way to quickly tell battery capacity/degradation from the car's system, if buying the car used?
Unfortunately, I don't think so. You could try Torque Pro (an app) with an OBD2 reader, but I don't think it's very accurate. The Bolt EV's battery is just too big to do a quick and accurate test.
@@newscoulomb3705 Thanks Eric!
What about this scenario: charging two Bolts to full charge. Same parking lot. One says max range 200, the other max range 240. Would you say the former likely experienced battery degradation?
@@jgfisch3 No, that still wouldn't work because the Bolt EV's range estimator is also based on historical driving. My Bolt EV is currently showing less than 200 miles on a full battery, but that's because I just got finished with a long, fast road trip at 70+ mph driving.
Do you have the first 'mode'l battery or second? I believe after a certain VIN number, 2017 Bolts have some kind of upgrade/tweak in the batteries.
I have the first version.
News Coulomb that is fantastic! Mine was changed at about 50,000 miles I think. I am 76 years young but the memory thing kinda goes south now and then. As Victor Borge says there are two things I can’t remember uhhh there are three things I can’t remember. Keep up the good work.
2017 Bolt, only charge on hilltop rarely go under 100 miles rage left. ~18k miles no degradation so far, did see a parameter change when GM tweaked my battery last year. Car is still perfect, no problems. Total cost charging, inspections and tire rotations is under $75 for 2 years but I do charge from my own PV which is paid off.
Yup. It's hard to beat.
What do you see as a % when you use hilltop reserve? I only have 11,000 on my ‘18, and when I first started using it, I got 88% consistently, now it charges to 87%. I also noticed that after the software update, range is much more conservative.
Mine has always been 87-88%. There's some variance, but only about 1%.
Hi Eric, I watched your video a while ago but I'm back as I'm considering buying a high mileage Bolt EV. What do you mean when you say that you should plan to make legs of 120-150 miles on long trips? Is this the max range that you see at highway speeds? Thanks.
Yes , some people because of fear and uncertainty would want to get rid of their EV because of degradation. In reality the car is completely fine and will be for years to come.
BOTTOM LINE. THAT LG CHEM PROPULSION BATTERY IS TOUGH!
How can GM come up with a 75Kwhr battery supposedly in the 2020 Bolt EV and not change the battery but with a software change?
My 6-month-old 2018 Bolt lost 40% of its battery capacity. The dealer said it checks out when they scanned it as all systems okay, but now I have a maximum of 138 miles which keeps me from driving to a city to which I frequently travel. The dealerships claimed it was due to cold weather but I store the car in a heated garage. Has anyone else faced this issue?
It's definitely due to the cold weather. Storing the vehicle in a heated garage helps, but if you are driving in cold weather at slow speeds with the heat blasting, it's going to estimate that you have a really low range. The estimate is based on recent energy consumption and outside temperatures.
Are there any chargers you can access along your route? If there are, you should plan a trip with the expectation that you will need to charge up at least a little.
I guess gm can't even get an EV right, either lol 😂. I'm sorry, though .
Jo Coles Demand they change the battery. If need be send a return receipt requested eyes only letter praising the Bolt and in passing that your battery is going bad. Tell me your results. Text 760-638-9580. Don’t trust your dealer, they have a big conflict of interest.
Oops send to Mary Bara CEO of General Motors Corporate Headquarters Detroit Michigan.
I just bought a 2019 yesterday. I was able to plug in my Bluetooth obd2, and get all the info I can with my Spark EV, except the capacity reads -8.6kwh. The PID csv file I have lists battery capacity at location 2241A3, using the calculation ((A*256)+B)/30. Is this the same as what you're using?
Great video! I would estimate based on reported degradation in Teslas that you will experience a slowdown in the rate of degradation. I will be interested in a follow-up video when you hit 100K or more. My guess is that you will still have great range when you hit 150k or 200k miles and the pack may last the life of the car.
Thanks! I've been getting more gentle with my battery usage over time. I wouldn't be surprised if my battery degradation from 75,000 miles to 150,000 miles will only be about half of what I've seen from 0 miles to 75,000 miles. So maybe 12% by 150,000 miles?
I'm a teacher, and I drive an absurd distance to get to work: 82 miles. That's 164 miles round trip. I make 184 trips in a year. I charge at home. I charge it up, presumably to 100%, since my "hilltop reserve" is always "off". I've had this car since June of 2017. I don't know how much I've lost. Not much, I'd say. I still get home and my guesstimator says "40 miles", or, if I've driven above 80 for long periods of time, it might get down to "30 miles" and turn orange. I don't really care, as long as i make it home. This is my second school year that I've been driving this thing to work and I've never had any issues that weren't my fault. (I've forgotten to charge up the night before a total of 3 times, which required me to go to an EVGO and fast charge). But anyway, the real test will be when it gets cold. In cold weather, the range goes down drastically. The first year, it got my attention, I'll be honest.
If it starts getting to the point I can't get to work, I'll figure out how to buy a Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor.
You always have the option of petitioning the school where you work to install chargers. Of course, just dropping your speed a little bit would also help ensure that you could make the trip easily.
I drive similar range 30k+ a year and would love to know, with all that driving. Any issues with the car overall?
Great video post. Question, if you leave your vehicle in Hilltop Reserve mode, even with the 8% loss that you have indicated, do you notice if there is an actual loss in range? Or, does Hilltop Reserve take off another 12% on top of the 8%?
Thanks! It appears to simply take 12% of the full capacity. I'm not sure what will happen when the battery degrades 12%.
It's going to take 12% off the fully charged usable capacity almost 100% sure it won't mask degradation with this.
The majority of the capacity loss I experienced might have been to the battery update as well. I experienced the same 2 kWh loss. The other issue with calculating degradation is the variability of capacity due to temperature. Warmer weather gives you higher capacity. I have 45,000 miles on my Bolt and people ask me how much range I have lost and I tell them about 5% since I bought the car. I haven't heard of ONE owner having bad degradation problems with the Bolt. I have heard of a few battery failures, but that is completely covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
Yes, the more I think about it, I think the software update made the algorithm for estimating energy usage more accurate.
@@newscoulomb3705 I think that it would be useful to take data on Torque Pro and temperature when you fully charge. That way you can try to take away another variable and see if the kWh reading is more reliable. I have seen this from my Bolt from the software update. Each bar is supposed to be about 3 kWh on the display. The bars on mine average about 2.7 kWh each until I reach 25%. Below 25% each bar is about 3.3 kWh. It is almost like they made the 25% a larger portion of the capacity so people would be less prone to being stranded. It could also just be my car...
Dan Chase Some first design batteries had problems. GM changed mine at 50,000 when I mentioned a small problem in my many many Bolt accolades to Mary Bara at GM.
Very good video is what I wanted to hear about electric vehicle. 👍🏼✌🏼I’m wondering if its the same thing for Nissan Leaf?
Thanks! Degradation, even in the LEAF, will depend on the usage, but the same rules apply. Lots of DC fast charging and cycling through most of the battery regularly will make the LEAF's battery degrade more because it lacks a liquid thermal management system.
If you still have all that historical data, maybe on your next video you can include a plot of the usable capacity vs. miles driven. This way we can see if there are any trends that can be used to extrapolate future degradation. Thanks.
Thanks. Good idea. I'll see what I can put together. It might be worth doing a follow-up on.
@@newscoulomb3705 Besides the slight battery degradation, how has the rest of the car held up? Any major repairs or unusual maintenance? Maybe a cost-of-ownership discussion would be a good topic for a future video.
Yes, I'll see what I can put together. There's really not much to it. All of the wear is from physical damage (outside forces). It would be more of a "War Wounds" video.
Other than tires, windshield wipers/fluid, cabin filters... There's not much in the way of maintenance or cost of ownership. Just electricity.
Thanks for your informative video.
Are you in Canada or America? EVs are really getting more popular recently. It’s great to see 👍🏻
How much would it cost to replace the battery and is it possible to upgrade the battery pack to a higher capacity or are you restricted to the exact same specifications?
Last time I checked the cost was over 15,000. Ouch
My understanding was that a teardown of the Bolt revealed it actually had a 57 kw battery according to the cell number. Hear anything like that?
Mark Hegg See my article about that for more details:
electricrevs.com/2018/03/29/gm-explains-57-vs-60-kwh-bolt-ev-battery-ratings/
I've seen the teardown video with the 57 kWh sticker; however, GM's EPA filing for the Bolt EV lists the battery as 60 kWh. Jeff's article also sheds some light. I would say it's complicated, but I've seen nothing (including from my own data) to counter GM's 60 kWh claim.
That's rated minimum capacity at 20degrees C. Typical capacity is 60kw at 25 degrees
What ODB adapter should I buy? Also I will fit your ideal charging scenario for 80% of my driving. I should get my Bolt by the end of the month. I can gather the data from my use and share it with you if it will help you gain a better understanding of the battery. Mine will be a 2019 my daily commute is mostly 60 miles.
Oh, nice. Congratulations!
I just got a cheap OBD2 reader. I think the only real requirement is Blutooth. The how-to on TorquePro and the PIDs has recommendations I believe. I can try to find the Google Sheets.
Remember! You have a 10 year battery warranty so I wouldn't worry too much! Just be sure to get a new battery pack before your warranty runs out!
10:00 , the 55KW charge rate tapers off significantly after the SOC of the battery gets above 54% or so, and liquid cooled. So I really wouldn't think DC fast charging would cause much more wear than L2.
Yes, and most of my DC charging has been on the 50 kW chargers, which are less than 1 C charging rates. I really do think it's the deep cycling more than anything else.
OBD2 is an interface specification not a sensor. An OBD2 port, is a component that implements the part of OBD2 that describes the electrical specification.
Good video. Do you have a Second Design battery ? ( crawl under the car or raise it, look for a sticker on the right side of the back of the battery that reads TWO-see YT of dismantling a Bolt battery by weberauto)
David Drake The 1st and 2nd batteries have identical battery capacity. The 2nd design changed to use distinct male/female in and out coolant connections to reduce the chance of incorrect connections being made during manufacturing or repair.
My battery is the first generation battery design.
Another great video - thank you. From watching all of your videos my guess would be you have used L3 284 times based on 70% of total miles driven. 73,000 * 70% or 51,100 miles; average kWh charged 45; miles per kWh 4.0 or 180 miles added per charge; 51,100 / 180 = 283.89 charges. Am I close?
I'm not sure. I might be able to tally, but I think it's fewer miles driven on DCFC, but more sessions. The number of sessions might not be a good metric, though. A better metric might be the total time spent DC fast charging.
If I had to guess, at most, 50% of my miles are on DCFC. If so, and you estimate about 90 miles per 30 minutes (which is probably pretty close), I've spent about 200 hours DC fast charging. That would probably equal closer to 300 to 350 sessions.
When you get 100,000 miles on your Bolt, it would be interesting to see what battery lose you have then, compared to now, so keep driving.
That 100,000 miles is going to come quick, though I'm almost exclusively using Hilltop Reserve Mode now. I expect to see a decrease in the rate of degradation moving forward. I'd be surprised if it is more than 12% by 150,000 miles.
Erick Belmer has about 445K on his 2012 Chevy Volt with about 160K from wall power. Has significant degradation but still usable. 4000 full charge cycles equivalent or so. Chevy batteries are reliable www.greencarreports.com/news/1112485_2012-chevy-volt-has-now-crossed-400000-miles-range-remains-steady
I think if GM reprogrammed the BMS to decrease available KWH they would need to update the EPA range. Did your range actually decrease or did you just get an indication that you are using less kWh?
Yes, and that's why I don't think it was actually capacity loss. I think it is most likely one of two things.
1) A couple early estimates (less than 5,000 miles) showed as much as 62 kWh usable, so the system might have been less accurate (off by about 3%).
2) The Bolt EV used to stop when it hit 0%. They might have shifted so that you still have 2 kWh when the battery goes to 0%.
Either way, those are just a couple of guesses. I'm not sure we'll know for sure either way.
News Coulomb, I think when Weber Auto did the Bolt battery teardown, the battery said 57 kWh. Of course that figure varies with discharge rate. Some Chinese batteries manufacturers use 1/20 C to get extra capacity rating, which would not be realistic for an EV.
What does GM go by for their 40% degradation warranty? Miles range or kWh delivered?
The EPA filling documents showed 350 V nominal @ 171 Ah (or 60 kWh exactly). That's what I'm going by.
I'm guessing the 40% is by capacity. I don't know how else they could do it because mileage varies based on so many other factors.
IMHO There is more background on the 57 vs 60 kWh topic here:
electricrevs.com/2018/03/29/gm-explains-57-vs-60-kwh-bolt-ev-battery-ratings/
Would you share the specific calculations that you do to correlate the charger information with OBD2 information? I have a new Bolt and would like to track the battery. My home L2 charger displays energy transferred at the end of charging session. That number does not account for AC -> DC conversion though. I have seen 86.5% stated as the efficiency. So I'm assuming that you project capacity from the % charge delta gathered from OBD2 relative to de-rated energy in? For example, if the charger displays 36kWh in to go from 38% to 92.9% (delta of 54.9 %) this would imply (capacity)*.549 = 36 * .865. This reduces to a usable capacity of 56.7 kWh. Am I on the right track?
It sounds like you're asking for DC fast charging efficiency, but I haven't correlated the data between the charger and the OBD2 readings. I might have captured enough data to do so, but I haven't actually calculated the difference. According to the EPA filing documents, GM states that the Bolt EV's L2 AC charger is 88% efficient. I believe DCFC are in the 90-95% efficiency range (though you might end up seeing additional losses due to battery conditioning).
So using your L2, I would get 57.7 kWh, or about 4% degradation from 60 kWh.
Thanks. So you agree with my calculation methodology - you just used a different charging efficiency?@@newscoulomb3705
NEW 2019 BOLT owner here. I currently use 120 volt/12 amp charging in my garage. I am thinking of getting a 240 volt/32 amp continuous level 2 charger. Will this accelerate my battery degradation ?
aardvarkansaw No! ;)
Great Video I have a Question for You I have the 2017 Bolt Ev and My Air Conditioned broke at 36,292 Miles,Did that Happened To You as Well?🤔
Nope, my AC is still running strong.
I’m only at 8,500 miles and usually only charge between 20% and 85%, I have not noticed a change in available range. The only time I charge to 100% is in January and February when the car emails me to plug me in it’s cold out here! You are tough testing your Bolt! Are you trying to catch up with that Volt with 400K miles?
I would say that even in winter, you might not want to charge to 100% unless you absolutely need the range. Using something like Hilltop Reserve Mode will treat the battery like it's full when it's at 88%, so that might be an option.
There's no way I can catch up to Sparkie! lol But this is just my standard use case. I really need an EV with a minimum of 150 miles of range just for my daily driving needs. I was burning way too much gas in my Volt, so it didn't make sense. Even still, between the two Volts I've had and the Bolt EV, I've logged nearly 130,000 miles just on electricity in the last five years.
News Coulomb I’ll have to change it to hill top reserve I want it to last as long as possible! Thanks.
I have about 4k miles on mine and I charge it to 100% every 2 weeks via Level 2. Just wondering if that's ok? I will probably keep this for the rest of my life.
eBoarder75 I have heard many sources claim it is best to not charge a lithium ion battery all the way to 100% or discharge to 0% on a regular basis. But I don’t know why other than it decreases the life span.
@@My2JZandMe no. Another thing is you overcharge the battery when degenerative braking or have no degenerative braking at full capacity. That's kinda what the name for the hill top reserve came from.
Dear Eric, I thought hilltop reserve mode saves the top 10% of battery capacity not 12%. Are you sure it's 12%?
I'm basing that on what OnStar and other OBD2 readers state. When the car is fully charged under Hilltop Reserve, it reads 88%.
I feel 2% better now. 88% is better than 90% for battery preservation. My display shows 18 bars (or maybe it's only 17 bars, I'll have to recount) on the GOM which would be 90%. Please tell me where on the display does it show 88%? Thanks.
It doesn't show on the display. You have to go into your app.
Ah, found it, thanks.
Good video. One comment is another variable that was left out is that battery pack temperature can also affect the amount of usable energy available. The Bolt EV's TMS seems to only maintain a battery pack temperature above 40F (4C). The usable energy at 40F is noticeably different then at 80F for example. Us in Canada (and other cooler climates) also see much reduced initial DCFC charge rates when the battery pack is a lower temperatures (again to protect the battery). These charge rates increase as the battery pack warms up.
Yes, and part of the reason I said "approximately" 55.5 kWh usable is a variation of +/- 1 kWh, and it does seem to be seasonal (i.e., I actually see higher capacity estimates at lower temperatures).
Yes. I live in MN and notice that range under 50F goes from 200+ miles to 160-180 miles. HVAC usage (especially heat) and battery temp do make a difference. I had a Leaf before our two Bolts (yes, we are lucky no ICE cars at all) and like the resistive heat the Bolt has, whereas the Leaf had a heat pump. Even at the expense of range, when I want to be comfortable I can be. The Leaf would struggle to make heat when it was sub-zero temps.
@news coulomb what are your thoughts if you never charge to 100%?
You'll still see degradation, but it will be to a much smaller degree. Though I can only guess what the difference might be. A Bolt EV with a "babied" battery might see as little as half the degradation I've seen at 70,000 miles.
Thanks, but I should have been more explicit. In terms of battery cell balancing and not charging to 100% or the GOM not being as accurate if the pack never gets a 100% charge.
Oh, I don't think that would negatively affect the pack. It seems like the battery starts doing cell balancing well before 100%, but that's just based on my observations. I think we'd need to ask someone from GM to know for sure.
Thanks. Appreciate the videos!
Great video... thanks for the information
Thanks!
With a total 425 miles on my Bolt. I have seen 0% degradation. I have been trying to set my charge limit to 80%. But for some reason it keeps charging to 95%. (Factory default) I will have to call Chevy for some help.
I’m at 45k miles in one year rarely fast charge but charge full everyday with a 7k watt charger from half to full. hill top is only if you drive down hell from where your charging so you don’t over charge. The battery has its own shut off point at 100% just like it has a cut off point when too low so it won’t damage the battery. I haven’t lost any miles everyday I get home same exact miles 170 unless there’s traffic it says up to 190 best car I’ve ever gotten already saved me 6k in gas no maintenance and 10,000 in rebates
Yes. Keep in mind, though, that GM's range estimator is a projection and not based on battery health (like Tesla's). It's really difficult to measure capacity on a Bolt EV.
I am thinking about buying a 2020 bolt.
Also FYI the up down that you're seeing in the app is due to temperature variations if it's colder you're going to lose range and how much the battery can hold likewise if it's super freaking hot batteries are made to run it at an optimal temperature until we get solid state batteries. 2004 baby will be the year the first electric car using a solid-state battery is slated to release here's hoping they don't push it back
Hi.
Which plugin to use for getting the cell volt readings on the torgue pro
Leaf/spark/Tesla owner here. (Gonna sell one soon) I bet many leafs may have that original bms issue. I'm thinking ill take mine to turtle and charge full. (Replaced battery in 2017 and it's already lost 5ish percent according to leafspy). We took it on a road trip tho and did nothing but chademo charging and it gained 1.5 percent capacity.... so yeah.Your degradationt is pretty good all things considered. We bought a used Tesla model S. 85kwh model. It reads 252 epa rated miles at full charge. It's a 2013. We mainly charge to 70 and 80 percent max... If your considering getting rid of your bolt, that supercharger speed is nice. You know the numbers. That degradation tho for your bolt.... Not bad.... Not bad at all. Thanks for sharing this! I am a fan of that hiltop Reserve mode. I have not heard about this termination mode you speak of until this video... Very nice. Keep on uploading!
You have not been clear about your initial conditions ? Have you checked the initial 60KWH ? Your degradation should be measured from the initial, which is certainly not 60KWH. or I misunderstood what you said. The best way to protect a battery it to make it bounce around 75 %, and also 75% is the ideal long term storage level. Depending on your trips, you should work as much as possible in a symmetrical from 75% point. If you plan to use 50% you can charge to 100% and arrive at 50%. You can charge to 100% if you use the vehicle right away. Making it sleep at 100% will degrade it. Like making it sleep at 0%. At a cell level best practice is to charge up to 4V and no more (that is more than 92% anyway). it is the TIME SPENT AT 100% or 0% that degrade the battery. Running it down to zero is not the worst as long as you do not do hard accelerations below 15% ans as long as you charge it immediately and not let it sit overnight with close to zero %. It is likely that the buffer is at the bottom, most manufacturers will reduce speed and acceleration of the car at some point in the low %. I think below 1C is mostly harmless, you see the KW go down as % go up. If you bounce the battery only inside the % bracket where it charge at 1C well there you might degrade it faster, but again this is more a question of TIME SPENT AWAY from 50-75% bracket. (NOTE: my 100% is 4.00 Volts per cell )
It was showing 60 kWh using the same measurement technique across multiple instances < 10,000 miles.
@@newscoulomb3705 ok, great! so the number for degradation you find is degradation + a little buffer added by the software update. That is really not bad considering the usage regimen.
here is 1 thing alot of ppl get wrong . would be nice if you made a video about this.. some still dont under stand regenerative braking very well and that it can play games when finding battery degradation . 1 when using regenerative braking down lets say a 10 miles long hill and lets say you see 2 or 3 miles go back into the battery some think they only got 3 miles for there work and feel the system sucks but fail to add the 10 miles as its all so free run time on the car .so in the in the regenerative braking added 13 miles . 2 when trying to get the most range from a EV coasting as long as you can as free coast time adds up faster then added regenerative braking battery range .this is why the gen 1 volts and gen 1 Tesla had a harder regenerative braking but as they found gliding got more range they pulling the regenerative braking back. 3 when looking for battery degradation some well charge to full and look at miles driven and giving regenerative braking can add or take away many miles from a 200+ mile rang EV . so if your the type to use regenerative braking really hard to try to push as much power as you can into the battery as fast as you can then your doing it all wrong .
Thanks for this.
Thanks! Expect another update soon!
Great stuff and appreciate you sharing!
55.5 out of 57 available, not 60, right?
its 20 percent to 80 percent Thats the optimum charging amount. You should still have no issue as most commutes are only 30 miles or less. Thats very attainable. Plug it in at night and you should be fine. No need for excessive charging. If you do alot of long trips and most dont then you need to be aware of the percentages most of the time its a simple calculation
Have you seen the Bolt videos on *weberAuto?* They have some really interesting videos. I really liked the *Bolt Motor Deep Dive* video. The motor and drive system look really well designed.
I'm a fan of the Bolt but I've never been in one. I'm 6'2" and 240 lbs. From some of the Bolt videos I've seen I get the impression I might have a hard time fitting in the Bolts seats.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I may need to wait until Chevy builds a roomier car using the Bolt motor before getting an EV myself.
Tesla owners who maintain between 20-80% report less than 5% over 100,000 miles.
Yeah, I think any EV with proper thermal management should see similarly low degradation if the owner doesn't cycle the full battery. I think even 10% to 90% would be fine, and result in far less degradation than what I've seen.
I own a Tesla and have around 80,000 miles and I'm up to 15% loss already
@@Michael-ge3eo Do you have a model S 60? It seems those have the most degredation. My S70D is just shy over 4% loss at 75k miles.
@@Michael-ge3eo u use the super charger a lot more.than destination charger?
I love driving my Bolt!!!
If you mostly charge from home I would expect your degradation would be less than shown here. Most Bolts won't be anywhere near 70,000 miles by now and with limited fast charging will probably still be usable for at least a decade.
Someone just bought a Bolt EV with over 100,000 miles, and it looks like they are seeing less than half the degradation I've seen.
brian whittle Mine is looking now at 113,440 miles. At 5Kw rate level 2 Volta charge, just passing 238 miles with 19 bars.
Just the facts ma’am @ 4:00 8% loss after 70K miles.
If they read your comment, they'll probably read the shortcut in the information section. :)
Such a cherry pick
He took into the account of the cold weather right?...u kno what? that might have been a dumb question.. I mean 70k miles..he obviously did...
News Coulomb The time stamps in the description are not clickable links - mine jumps to that spot in the video.
Probably 5% loss is more accurate
My concern is with battery degradation due to ambient temperature. I live in desert SW and summer day temps avg 115 and night about 95. l don't have a usable garage to cool car in at night, so my concern is that batty will degrade much faster in this environment.
Heat definitely has an impact, but I think that as long as most of your charging is done at night, it should be fine. Actually, not being in a garage is better than being in a garage that's not air condition.
With the Chevy Bolt or Volt, the battery is liquid cooled and heated. As long as it is plugged in, it should keep the battery pack at less than 90 Fahrenheit. If you can keep it plugged in whenever you aren't driving then it'll be just fine.
Eric - when used as a daily driver, I’d think that you’d need to create a specific situation that you’d subject the car to - once every year, or after another X miles - in order to determine the battery degradation. When I drive from 30 to 90 miles per day in my average week, obviously I don’t see any degradation that has occurred in the 21k miles that my Bolt has accumulated to date. The range of the 60 kWh battery is just that great, and my car so far hasn’t been used for much extended travel, since that’s just not yet practical in my region. Being in Michigan, my car is exposed to greater temp extreme on the cold side than yours, and outside temperature (and climate usage) matters a lot when estimating the range which a full battery contains. I wonder what effect that using a (50 kWh) fast charger on a cold battery has, when the initial charging speed starts out in the low teens and ramps up to 35 kWh charge rate 10 to 20 minutes later? What’s going on inside that battery as it warms up - perhaps too quickly? L2 chargers still deliver their maximum into a cold battery, so there must be significant resistance to taking on a fast charge when the battery is cold. Maybe fast charging a cold battery is worse than fast charging when the outside temp approaches 100 F? My typical at home charge ends at approximately 88% that HTR turns off the charger at. But is this 88% reference point consistent over the life of the vehicle that I could use it as a starting point when running a battery capacity test? I’d like to think that my battery hasn’t degraded at all in the 14 months that my Bolt has existed (with the huge range that it has, it’s certainly not apparent) but I’m sure there’s a real number. And that number isn’t a loss of how many miles of range, since that can change a lot with driving speed, terrain, ambient temperature and climate control usage. It’s more that the battery is now effectively smaller, which that capacity will only provide a certain maximum range, which is less than what it was when the car was new, but in a Bolt, it’s still a lot of miles. Perhaps you have a route which you can take where you may start with a 100% or perhaps an 88% battery and then proceed to run the charge down to near 0% and use that data for a battery capacity calculation. Or perhaps with your extended (but predictable) weekend travels you do have a gap between chargers which permits you to perform a capacity test when the temp and wind conditions are comparable to the last time that you ran such a test? 60 kWh allows you to cover a lot of ground during such a test, so I’d think you’d want to make the time spent on that sort of trip somewhat useful, vs. a lengthy but simple day trip where you end up where you started. Our public chargers are too widely spaced yet to permit me to run such a test without a risk of running the car down near 0% charge, but perhaps I am able to construct a trip which would cover up to 50 or more kWh and offer minimal risk of bricking the car as the charge level approaches 0%. Considering how frequently that you seem to push yours on the bottom end of the battery, I’d be pretty pleased to know that only 8% drop off has occurred to date on your Bolt. That’s pretty encouraging for the rest of us. Do you ever charge it to 100% and let it soak for a couple of hours to balance out the cells? That may be beneficial for capacity too. Thanks for sharing your data/experiences.
Thanks for proving the Bolt EV program by dogging and high timing / miles driven the heck out of that leased Premier you got. Any sqauwks at 70K. ?
Still, 8% degradation after 70,000 miles is pretty good. That means you shouldn't see 20% degradation until around 150,000 miles.
I really need to run the numbers again, soon. It looks like degradation has slowed.
And with so much capacity to start out with 20% degradation still means a very usable car.
@@daniels7862 Definitely. There's a bit of range to give, though I'd still want more. :-)
Actually the Bolt battery pack is only 57 kWh to start with according to the labeling on the battery sections. :-)
I heard computer reprogramming so many times. In our not so distanced past, we called this cheating. VW got in trouble when they "re-programmed" their diesel cars 5 years ago. Since EPA has their hands off policy and no regulations on electric vehicles, dealers can do whatever their want. Basically, "Re-programmed" the hell out of the computer to show favorable numbers to the consumers. Bottom line, I don't trust the dealers. Too much bureaucracy with too little integrity. That is why I am sticking with my Internal combustion vehicle until our government put some regulations on Electric vehicles. With the ICE vehicles, dealers are less daring to temper with the computer because people can easily find out and they can get into a lot of trouble for it.
Didn't you just list a number of internal combustion vehicles that were tampered with? In this case, the reprogramming was very clear: It allows GM to diagnose and fix faulty battery cells/modules before they cause their owners grief. It's a good thing.
Please let your subscribers and other EV advocates know that (it seems) GM has developed, and is field testing what is believed to be a 120Kw battery pack. If possible, perhaps you can calculate the exact kW capacity of this battery based on this GM release from a few days ago: https (:) //media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2018/oct/sema/1029-e-copo.html .. In your opinion, what would be the range of such a pack in different types of vehicles? Bolt EV size, "Camaro" size, SUV size, etc? Edit: more detail: gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/chevrolet-teases-possible-electric-crate-motor-with-ecopo-camaro/
I love the content of this video, and your efforts to help others in understanding the Chevrolet Volt.
However the playing of Taps at the beginning of the video is unnecessarily callous and disrespectful. I am sure this was done simply due to ignorance and not intentional malice, and I can only ask that you try to be more considerate in the future.
Thank you for your feedback and concern. I am not aware of any etiquette regarding Taps, as it predates official use in Military ceremonies. While symbolic of funerals, it was originally used to announce the close of the day. My Bolt EV, by no small coincidence, is named "Nightfall."
@@newscoulomb3705 I don't mean to be a jerk, it is your video and you can do what ever you want with it of course. Especially when going out of your way to help others.
However it is an emotional gut punch hearing it unprepared. And use of the song in public is often used to mock and belittle the mourning of service members. Judging by the strangely high number of downvotes on this helpful video, I would not be surprised if others got the same reaction from it.
So, about 1 percent per 10,000 miles?
Yes, that would be a pretty good estimate.
You battery degradation is a bit high, but still normal. Correcting for the 2 KWh after the software update, it is what I see from other EV owners with the same mileage. You should have mentioned that battery degradation DECREASES over time. So, you will never drop below 90%. I do not have an EV. Very recently I saw that in my street a public charger was placed. That is good, only 100 yards away from my home. I cannot charge at my home (no parking of my own). Still, there are two more problems. One is my extreme range anxiety (I fill up my petrol when tank is still 40% full for my own comfort) and the loss of battery capacity in winter. That can mount to 50% and that is completely unacceptable for me. I could not commute in winter and I would need a psych for my range anxiety then.
I hope you're right, and I see decreased amounts of degradation over time. So far, it's been fairly linear.
U have lost around 8 percent after 70.000 miles? I think it is a lot... Is nt it?
Vasileios Petropoulos - If the loss were linear with driven miles, that means he would reach 30% degradation - a level that could start to cause problems I would guess - at 270,000 miles. If you extrapolate that as the useful life of the battery, I think it compares favorably with the life expectancy of the engine of a consumer-grade ICE vehicle.
Alot of DCfastCharges,driving at ultra low batry,bolt's batry was put through al torture test widin70000 mls,losing8%is vry consistent degradation
We can’t charge to 100% or let it go down to 0% And can’t be using rapid fast chargers all the time? My head hurts. Does it go for ego mowers as well? Just bought one recently and they include a rapid fast charger so I can’t be using it then? I should get the slow charger then? Someone help me!! Batteries for ego cost over $200. Way better than a Chevy volt battery but it’s still $200 lol. Love my ego mower btw!! EV vehicle is another story. I don’t know.
I'm guessing you're being sarcastic. Like any machine, it will wear out over time; however, how you use it will determine its lifespan. Off-road vehicles and race cars don't last as long as daily commuters. Same rule applies to batteries.
70k in 2yr, that’s a lot of wearing for the battery. It is what it is.
Battery temperature will directly affect battery capacity readings
If you deplete your battery all the way to 3 miles in range and slowly charge it on a level 2 all the way to 100% twice a month. Your battery will last longer and improve in your range. Try not fully charge your car on DC fast charger. If you precondition your car in the winter time while plugged in on a level 2 your battery it help out on range also. I did the same thing on my Nissan Leaf ,my Chevy Bolt,my Chevy Volt my Fiat 500e. All have over 70 thousand miles besides my bolt. All still have over 90% battery charge. My 2013 leaf still gets 98 miles per charge. Fiat still get 93 miles my 2013 volt still 41 miles n and my bolt still gets 245 miles. I only use the DC fast charger as a last resort.
Bolt battery is actually 57kWh 350.4 volt 162.7 Ah vice the 60Kwhr... Per this disassembly video. ruclips.net/video/ssU2mjiNi_Q/видео.html so that should decrease your calculation of actual degradation calculation.
Me thinks an ICE car also gets less range per tank of gas after thousands and thousands and thousands of miles!!
They definitely do, and they also lose power over time. But just like battery degradation, it's going to vary by vehicle.
Well, actually no. ICE cars do not lose 8% in 100.000 miles. Maybe 30 years ago they did. But not anymore. Unless something is worn. That is where the EV is good. There is very little that can wear.
Only if compression loss or incomplete combustion
I've never had that problem.
So he's saying try to run your battery between 40% and 80% charge. Which means your 60KWh battery becomes a 24 KWh battery. Might as well just buy a hybrid vehicle which just happens to use it's battery between 40% and 80% automatically.
Actually, no, that's not what I'm saying.
I am referring to is the spectrum of battery use that results in the least degradation over time. My video shows that it doesn't really matter, and that many drivers could possibly see hundreds of thousands of miles out of their Bolt EVs before seeing degradation significant enough to warrant replacing the battery.
Your Torque App and DC fast chargers both get the percentage of battery from the BMS, so that's normal infos are similar.
I found that my I-Miev is weirdly programmed, because I don't get the same information from the charger and from the App. The car is programmed to cut the charging when battery reach 80%, accurate on the App, but chargers always show 82% at the same moment. So the higher the state of charge, the higher it's off on the charger.
Maybe it was design this way to trick people into thinking the charging is faster than it actualy is. Don'tknow...
Moral of the story kids: don't discharge to 1% and don't charge to 100% unless you absolutely have to.
Thats what I started doing at 15K miles. I keep it around 50% as much as possible.
Gas cars do not have that problem.
@@JohnSmith-ug5ci what a stupid comment, are you a stupid person?
Idol, for people like yourself who are dumb on purpose truth usually comes across as stupid.
@@JohnSmith-ug5ci Gas cars pollute the environment, put us at risk for oil spills and bend our foreign / military / economic policy towards securing more of the planet's diminishing oil reserves. Electric cars do not have these problems.
This seems to be about in line with GM's expectations. See www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/a1ez8j/battery_degradation_stats_i_found/
Yeah, that really surprised me.
How so? Would you have expected less degradation in their described "~30,000 km/year and 1 DCFC/week"? It looks to me like lots of DCFC might have only caused you to lose about 10-20% more than you would have with fewer fast charges, and maybe less since the values were measured differently. I interpret this as: be nice to your battery when convenient, but don't also feel guilty about a few DCFC for a road trip. You are having some impact, but not a lot.