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Just because you told me to comment on this lol: Yellow bone v red bone is basically just referring to their undertones. Some ppl have more of a yellowish undertone, others have more of a reddish-orange undertone.
Redbone skinned people can very much be as light skinned as yellowbones, however the difference is the undertone (red, more deep brown/yellow, more superficial brown). TYPICAL: Redbone skinned people tan very easily due to having more eumelanin (melanin more native to Africa people) and this tan, due to having more reactive melanin (eumelanin), can last much longer than yellowbone skinned people. Typically, redbones will tan to a copper color or the light - medium side of the medium brown spectrum, however, their natural color is an obvious light brown (ex: Will Smith's family or Rhianna and Beyonce). Yellowbones, who almost always, due to biological reasons, have at least a smidge (even if it's just one ancestor) of white ancestry because that lightness in a black person and being able to go in the sun without tanning a lot (and also losing a tan quickly) could only come from pheomelanin (melanin more native to Euopeans) or a very rare mutation. SO BASICALLY: redbones and yellowbones, both light skinned black people, however, redbones tan more easily, stronger, and longer (more eumelanin and commonly more African hertiage) whereas yellowbones tan less and shorter (more pheomelanin and EXTREMELY rarely don't have at least one white ancestor, whether the ancestor knew they were white/partially white or not. ALSO: if your confused about the types of melanin and the tans easily/stronger thing, it may help you to make the connection that white/pheomelanin rich people typically burn easily but have a hard time tanning, but eumelanin rich people/dark black people rarely burn but tan easily. Kind of a side tangent, but as a redbone person who didn't know sunscreen was important (reducing dark spots, DNA mutations, premature wrinkles, etc) and started wearing sunscreen after finding out, it was very annoying to hear some people close to me ask me if I bleached my skin even though hydroquinone is illegal in my country without a prescription and I rarely travel. I feel like a lot of light skinned people struggle with this type of stuff because yellowbones = skintone changes quickly depending on season | redbones = skintone change is drastic when not exposed to UVA/wearing sunscreen and/or upf Some weird people out there saying redbones are annoying because they have naturally light brown skin but allow the sun to easily tan them...
desirability is a double edged sword. Hypervisibility harms as much as it helps. desire and respect are not the same thing. Attention can be an expression of superficiality instead of interest.
@@kahlips0180 Same. I learned to avoid it however I can. No makeup, doing my hair, wearing cute clothes [or fitted or cropped], unless I'm at home alone or occasionally when I'm with either of my two trusted friends. And for the record - for the TERs out there [I sometimes leave out the F cos they're not feminists] - in spite of my trauma, one of those friends is a trans woman, aka a woman. I've always been able to trust her & feel safe with her for the years we've known each other. Cos of course! I'm sick of the "insidious nb" TERs stuff.
@@Justcanary8888 tbh, I believe the entire idea of slut shaming is based on male jealousy of how much easier it is for women to get laid then men...even though it's men's fault for generally having literally no standards and wanting to fuck any thing with a vagina 90%of the time.
@@Sacredmysticz envious of the fact a woman can get attention and privileges just from being pretty, while they have to work hard to even get half the praise a girl like Ice Spice gets for existing
i’m so glad you used ice spice as an example. i became a fan of her initially in part due to the fact that i saw the overwhelming hate that she was getting online that was largely from men and very sexual in nature. there was a time on twitter where you couldn’t search up her name without being inundated w a “leaked” sextape that allegedly was of her (it wasn’t). when ppl found out it was a fake, i saw several men complaining that they had gotten off to a fake vid , as if part of the reason they were aroused by it was because it was supposed to be this thing that was released without her consent. i also saw a viral tweet where some guy said he hoped ice spice’s career would flop so that she would have to resort to doing only fans. based on dominant beauty standards, ice spice is supposed to be the pinnacle of desirability esp within the black community, but because she is so sexualized she gets treated like an object that misogynistic men can direct their simultaneous attraction and hateful vitriol towards. as a darkskinned black girl i would never want to be in that sort of position even if it meant i was “desirable”. i’m glad that her core fanbase is mostly young women now who genuinely support her.
it really drives home that men like neither the Madonna nor the whore. The only way one can salivate at the idea that a desirable woman having sex being career ending, is that they really want women to be subjected to desirability by others but not in control of it. Be sexy, but don't have sex but if you do, it should be with me and if you dont then you're a slut and if you have sex with me then you're still slut. Wear sexy clothing, but don't complain when someone gropes you without your consent and if you accuse someone of doing something inappropriate, then you're just a scorned lover whose trying to ruin some innocent man's life. You should sell your talent rather than your looks but if you're not fuckable to other people, then you're career is going to flop. How much yall wanna bet these same people would be the exact same way as ice spice is if they looked exactly like her? theres something thats got to be said about men's jealousy of desirable women and misogyny being their weapon of choice to punishment women for not possessing the same level of desirability as them for the same reasons
“Ice Spice is the pinnacle of desirability”… umm yea for black and maybe Hispanic men who live in cities like NYC, Chicago and the south. Everywhere else, the standard is different. But I agree with everything else. She’s beautiful but she would not have made it if she didn’t appeal to colorist black producers
@@froyokid youre comment is (mostly) correct, but it should go without saying that the prevailing beauty standards are colorist and can vary by region and that artists are marketed to appeal to specific audiences as you have exemplified. Imagine how discourse would flow if people gave disclaimers in every other sentence.
Women rappers who don't focus on their sexuality are a great example of the catch-22 here. Regardless of talent, they never reach the same level of success as those who lean into sexuality. People say that's what they want but we've got amazingly talented artists like Noname, Tierra Whack, Chika, etc and, well, the numbers don't lie.
The system, all the systems, are built to exploit women's bodies and sexuality. I'm sure y'all have noticed that social media apps will promote your thirst traps more than anything else you post. This planet is ghetto.
Flip-flopping between being a fat black kid in a whitish neighbourhood, and then young thin fetishsized black man to back to being overweight pretty much messed up my self-esteem. I still get dissociative when I get compliments, my brain will be like "I don't know who they're talking about." I also been on the other side of ostracization, to my ever increasing shame. All that to say, let's validate each other, and help each other self-validate. If you're reading that, you're beautiful, yes you, dont look pass your shoulder. And I mean it, 'caus I almost never use that word for people.
Thank you! You're very beautiful. Don't look over your shoulder either! I don't have the same experience but I understand having trouble believing compliments and I'm still unpacking why. I hope your self-esteem recovers! Just being overweight doesn't automatically make you unhealthy, ugly, or anything else, regardless of what anyone says. There are skinny people who aren't healthy just because they're closer to the supposed ideal which is frequently warped by society's lens. It all varies by individual and fatphobia is often racist, classist, and sexist.
Wanting to be desired because we're raised that way but also not wanting to be objectified is one of those super challenging things. If we got treated like actual people it'd be different but...
We want to be desired because society links our physical appearance to our worth, it’s dehumanising to value humans based on their appearance either way.
@@neptunianvibes yes. I think that's the point, we as a society are FORCED to submit to people and want them to like us. It's engrained from childhood, when we are in school for people to start liking us Or else we will get bullied. So we never actually sit down and realize that maybe life isn't about impressing others. Ofc some people learn it early in life, whereas some take a long time but almost everyone figures it out eventually before they die
While reading the book, it felt like Picola sought after disirability as a way to become safe and to secure her saftey. Throughout that book she's everything but safe and since she's socializied into thinking that she's also everything but beautiful, it makes sense that she wanted those blue eyes so bad. The line "her poverty makes us generous," really stook with me. It's like 'her suffering is nessecary for our success' and it'll always be Picola's fault
Toni Morrison once said that “white people have a serious problem because they have to make people be on their knees to feel tall” and this book highlights the fact that for there to be a DESIRABLE sector of society there had to be an UNDESIRABLE and since white people had the power to create these social structures they used black people to self validate
and that begs the question I've been asking over and over in different ways and in different environments: Why is it necessary for society to designate someone to suffer in order for everyone else to thrive? It's because hierarchies are so deeply embedded in society. Someone always has to be put on the bottom and shit always flows downstream. Why is it necessary to fling shit on someone else in order for everyone else to feel cleansed? Why does society need someone to point to and say "there's the bad guy" (Tony Montana was right)? and why does it always have to be the ones who are already vulnerable?
@@elleofhearts8471 Yes AND baby! There can be no up without down, no good without bad, no sameness without otherness. It feels like you can trace the lines of supposed (not to say unreal) hierarchies, chasing these points of contrast to reinforce itself. It can say, "See right there? I am THAT. That is proof of my existence, license for my dictates." We mistake ourselves for a pyramid when we are better off as a puzzle. Everyone has their own particular shape but we're all one, evolved perfectly to complement each other's uniqueness in the environment we are ... OH FUCK THE ENVIRONMENT'S ON FIRE
I also recommend the Viola Davis book "Finding Me" as she talks about growing up in extreme poverty as a dark skinned black girl and her career as an actress, she talks a lot about desirability as well and has so much to say on the topic. She is such as incredible woman...
My daughter, who is mixed, told me the other day that when she went out ice skating, a group of boys jeered at her, calling her Ice Spice. I've been trying to figure out how that could have been an insult. Now I know. I'm going to share this video with her
I think u need to talk to ur mixed race daughter about what it is like to be mixed race and probably (?) have a racially ambiguous appearance, i don't know what ur daughter looks like of course 😅 But still that lesson is important.
It's not an insult, tell her that ice spice is a beautiful woman BUT that it shouldnt be your daughter's main goal to look pretty, she should strive to be intelligent, kind, hard working etc.
@@similoluwajunaid831 yes, I have. I am white, but I knew even when she was little that her Blackness needs to be seen as beautiful in here eyes, and I've worked to learn what I can about the Black experience, so that I can teach her. Unfortunately, he father died of leukemia when she was six, and his side of the family doesn't really want to have a relationship with her, which breaks my heart.
@@gc.96 I know it's not, but teenage boys will teenage. That's what I meant by I couldn't figure out why they were using the comparison as an insult. Literally the first thing out my mouth after she said it was "I can see it" 😅 But, listening to Khadija talk about how Ice Spice is viewed by men made me think about it again
When I was 17 I was riding the city bus to go home from school. I saw a beautiful girl riding the bus -I couldn't stop staring at her ( i wished I was as beautiful as her) until I realized every passenger was looking at her.The passengers consisted of mostly men and they looked at her inappropriately. It was the first time I witnessed the dangers of beauty and the first time I felt grateful that I wasn't.
You couldn’t stop looking at the beautiful girl on the bus and that’s okay, but when most men are looking at her too it’s inherently inappropriate? That double standard confuses me. What makes a man staring inappropriate, but a woman staring appropriate? Are all these men drooling and licking their lips or something? Or are you stereotyping their intentions based on their gender?
@Johnsons97 @Johnsons97 I agree that both men and women should be able to stare and look, so long as they do not disturb the other person. The difference in this sceanario was that the men's stares were inappropriate in nature. The girl looked uncomfortable because the men were ogling her.
Hyper-visibility is a horror when you’re perceived as vulnerable. Whether that be as a women, as a Black person, as a child. Predators prey on the vulnerable and the more visible you are, the more at risk you are. I gained weight and felt DEEP relief at being left alone.
This is a topic i’ve been dying for you to cover. I’ve largely been considered good looking my whole life by everyone around me. And i find it extremely interesting how complicated my relationship has been with my desirability. I’m a muslim(ex muslim) neurodivergent woman. My looks have been used to put me into a box my whole life. People with much more privilege have come up to me my whole life and told me that things must come “easy” for me, despite being alienated from my peers early on in my life due to islamophobia and my neurodivergence. Yet, i know i hold a position of power over other women from my community because of this same desirability and the respectability politics i so heavily played into early on. I am asexual and currently confused about my gender identity and i feel like desirability is so tied in with femininity for afab folks that i’ve almost been choke hold into it forever. And you’re not allowed to talk about any of this in public without being called narcissistic. Yet i feel happy when someone calls me pretty?
The last part is because we, as women, have been conditioned to think being pretty gives us value our whole lives. I mean, from TV shows to the popular girl in your school - pretty comes up a lot. Not to mention the billion dollar beauty industry that has their minds set on capitalizing off our insecurities. It'll take a lot of time for women to de-condition themselves from something they've grown up believing as children. This is why it's good to read up on books and check yourself whenever you have thoughts that your desirability as a person only consists of your physical looks! I have such a problem with this too, but I keep in mind that I'm still young. We notice that pretty people have it easier in life... it's a hard pill to swallow. However, acceptance will one day release us hopefully from the shackles of desirability.
I relate to you a lot. I come from a conservative hindu family, am atheist and asexual. I was conventionally unattractive, ignored a lot by classmates and family alike, until lately, cuz I happened to have my so-called glow up. I don't think tho that I have experienced any perks of pretty priviledge, which btw dont get me wrong, I think very much exists. I just can never trust the same people who were mean to me before, be nice to me know. I have become extremely anti-social, have no friends, I deal with terrible body dysmorphia and find it really hard to become comfortable in my own skin, despite the 'glow up'. If only people were always nice to me no matter how 'desirable' I was...
Same boat. I'm also an ex-muslim neurodivergent woman & demisexual, but in my case I was an "ugly duckling" that had a glow-up in my teens (traded my thick coke-bottle glasses for contacts, got my thick kinky curls relaxed & straightened, bought myself a new wardrobe & makeup set). I was still bullied bc the popular girls that saw me pre-transformation made sure to humiliate me by sharing my "undesirable" version of myself. I wasn't allowed to enjoy pretty privilege, until I moved away and went to college. Since it was considered inappropriate to be around boys, including my own brothers & cousins, I never learned about boundaries when coming into contact with them. Touching and kissing was also something that wasn't doled out and so we grew up in a household where hugging or verbal affection was lacking. So it took me a long time to realize I was ace bc my curiosity about boys and hunger for affection were also further confused by my heteronormative social conditioning. It wasn't until I started having relationships that I had to wrestle with why I was so conflicted. I had to learn how to separate my need for physical intimacy from the inculcated need for sexual intimacy. I also needed to unlearn the need for validation/acceptance and emotional support, from the need for attention and to be desirable. This kind of confusion is amplified when the male gaze dictates who wins in our current attention economy, where the currency of likes and compliments about our looks affords us the clout, that helps us traverse the social ladder (which most minorities are prevented from climbing). I feel like bc whiteness is considered the highest point of political power and blackness is considered the highest point of social power (due to the rebellious & "cool" associations with urban culture), those of us who sit in between (bi-racial and brown minorities) have definitely used our intermediary position of racial ambiguity to our advantage - not bc intentionally trying to misrepresent ourselves, but bc respectability politics is our only means for survival in a male-dominated & melanin-averse world.
Wow, I relate so much to your experience. Not Muslim, so I can’t relate to that, but everything else! It’s a struggle to let go of the urge to be desirable, especially when that’s all you’ve heard about yourself growing up. Add onto that being asexual and question gender… yeah it’s a mindfuck.
ice spice actually said in an interview something along the lines of that her favorite compliment is when people compliment her on her personality and nothing to do with her looks, I think she also emphasized when people call her kind ... food for thought
Unfortunately a lot of Black women have this experience of being treated as subhuman and then suddenly hypervisible and desirably, leading us to accept mistreatment since we are "lucky" to even be desired. I so appreciate you talking about this topic, it's helped me come to terms with and heal from abuse more than you know!
As someone who has never really been desired or seen as pretty, I have always thought really messed up things. I remember being around other girls who would always talk about how much they hated being cat called or objectified etc etc, and I would stand there thinking that I would love to experience those things just so I could feel like I was desired by someone, anyone. When I would hear how women would get cat called even while looking “ugly or terrible” I would just think “well just how ugly do I have to be to have never experienced that, even when I think I look my best, when all the women around me have.” I know it’s messed up but I can’t help these feelings.
Oh my dear friend, oh my dear dear friend. You are someone who hasn't learned just how much women lie. They're not getting cat called. Ask them to record it. They're making this shit up so they seem popular and desirable
And by the way If you're genuinely unsure of how attractive or unattractive you are, and you're not getting very much male attention, chances are you are even uglier than you could imagine in your worst fantasy. People. See you from every angle. They see you from the back from the side. When you look in the mirror, you almost always only look at yourself from the front. You don't turn your head three quarters one way one. Third, another way you don't look at yourself from the top where there might be a balding patch. You don't look at yourself from the bottom or from any other angle other than directly into the mirror. You don't watch yourself in the mirror, speaking or open your mouth or drinking or burping. Those are all significantly uglier facial expressions. I assure you. And you also don't see your body moving and jiggling and bending and standing. And if you are like most women, you believed that the weight you have is completely normal and that you're just a little bit on the plumper side, when in reality you are probably obese and so fat that when a guy sees you in the distance or anyone sees him in the distance, you think they notice your face. Nope. They're not even looking at your face honey
I was always a fat girl, and I've been blessed with a "either disinterested or kinda baked" resting face, so I grew up basically only being called pretty by my mom. At that one point in childhood where you become aware that the world is crap and you are vulnerable out there because predators exist, I started feeling grateful for my face and my weight. I thought they made me undesirable (after all, mom called me "pretty despite being too fat") and that meant that no one would even want to take advantage of me. Of course, I was WRONG and the internet made sure to make that clear (nothing major, just creepy men trying to get free feet pics) but realizing that I was wrong kinda broke me for a while. The helplessness set in that there was NOTHING that could truly prevent me from being a target. I still play into it from time to time. I underdress when I'm going out alone at night for like, getting something at the convenience store real quick, and I overdress when I wanna look at myself in the mirror and be reminded that I have control over my own appearance, that I can be pretty WHEN I want. I like to treat it like a switch that I can turn on or off. My SO is the only person that treats me as beautiful no matter where the switch is, and that's perfect for me, he should be the only one to do that. But the feeling of "if you're too much, too pretty, too exposed, someone will see it as an invitation and you'll need to defend yourself alone" never goes away.
I can relate. The watershed moment for me was when I found out that people can can and do sexualize literally anything. it desnt matter how you adorn yourself (essp. because gender is a performance). People will find some way to sexualize you against your consent and blame you for it.. because desirability is something you possess, not something you control. Its something you're subjected to by just as much as you can subject others to it.
All of this! And I’ve felt the same about only really wanting to be desired by my partner. It is what is if strangers find me attractive but I hate the feeling of being desired or listed over in a way that teeters on the line of preyed on. It completely feels predatory. It’s much different than someone bein interested initially bc of your looks, style, how you carry yourself - that to me is more like being interested in a book bc of its cover and wanting to read the intro.
This makes me think of comments that come from the most self unaware people who themselves are physically undesirable on every level (for example Donald Trump) are the same pieces of shit saying that women who they’ve assaulted in the past and who are coming forward with allegations now are “not pretty enough to r*pe” or “too fat to r*pe.” Rush Limbaugh said shit like this too despite being literally jabba the hut himself.
I relate to your assault story so much. When I was 18 I was raped but I had a hard time calling it that because I walked into the situation. I come from a majority white school, jr high and high school I was never seen as desirable. I went through many issues like mental health, body dysmorphia, and bulimia/anorexia. Before going to college I met this black guy who was desirable. And I was very shocked bc usually a guy like him would go for a white girl or a Hispanic, anyways he would called me beautiful which in return made me tear down my walls because I wasn’t use to being called that. I then got in a situation where I was alone with him and he wanted sex from me. I said no and he continued, I was so scared but felt like I walked into the situation so might as well let him have it. That experience taught me a lot about self worth and showed me ways to value myself.
I had something similar happen. I felt like my safety would be threatened if I didn't comply. When I confessed what happened to my best friend, she said "Why didn't you resist?". I said "He's from the Crips and said he'll cut my face!" and she responded "So? I'd rather have a disfigured face than to be molested!". I was shocked, I didn't realize that was an option. It never occurred to me that physical pain was preferable over trauma, until I was older. We're Palestinian, so while her family has always emphasized the importance of self-defense, I was socialized (like most girls) to be sweet, nice, quiet, and accommodating. My mom was a doormat, so I pretty much didn't learn how to stick up for myself. I remember we moved overseas, where I really grew to understand the strength of my people. Two soldiers held college students at gun point and forced them to kiss. We discussed it in school, arguing about self-preservation vs justice & honorability. One of the hijabis in my class said she'd rather be shot than ever let a soldier harass her into compromising her dignity & religious piety. She said if one of us lets them get away with it, then it sets a precedent to allow them to harass us all. Now some good debaters pointed out that it's not the victim's responsibility to set/avoid precedents and that these soldiers don't need precedents to behave unethically. But many girls in class agreed that they'd take a bullet than be antagonized into it. I was ashamed, bc my instinct would've been to kiss the guy in order to protect his life and my own. I've always felt ashamed for not having a backbone or the inner strength to stand up to abusers. So being back in the US, I live single & isolated away from people. I stay unattached, bc I'm on the spectrum & don't trust myself to have healthy relationships. I'm always getting taken advantage of, by everyone around me. Family, friends, lovers, etc. It's just me and my cats for now.
I’ve recently moved from desirability to non desirability. I was a stripper my whole adult life, my looks were my bread and butter. A little over a year ago I had to get a major surgery on my back, I now have to work in quality control in a big manufacturing facility so I can sit down at a desk. I’ve also gone through spiritual changes that lead me to not want to pursue SW in other ways, although I physically could. I no longer am in a position to have anything a man would want, as I no longer “advertise” my desirability. I don’t wear makeup, I don’t dress seductively, I’m no longer manipulating men to get what I want. It’s been a huge eye opener to no longer be “needed” by men after I no longer will provide “services” to them. I’ve been cast aside, all those regulars who gave me money gradually stopped following me when months went by with no ass shots or thirst traps. Desirability isn’t always just about your looks, I look the same. It’s about what you do with your looks, how you advertise your desirability.
@@rejectionisprotection4448 thank you. Still on the journey, and you know what? I e found companionship with men who truly care about me as a person. Desirability is a trap I’m realizing. You get attention but no actual love, no care, no nurturing.
As a teenager, I was considered and treated as ugly. Boys made fun of me, my peers felt embarrassed to be seen with me and my parents and relatives judged me. Although I’m still not “desirable” (by men), I’m considered “attractive” now, yet when people compliment my appearance, it just feels shallow to me. I know that it’s meant to be positive but I don’t feel flattered by essentially fitting into the beauty standard. Maybe because I know what being “ugly” is that I just find praising a person’s physical appearance to be conditional and superficial, even if it’s not by intent.
your comment about the moving target of desirability i also feel as a trans person. there is no amount of cisnormative enough you can be to satisfy people who are determined to invalidate you. i tried to play that game, and watched many in my community try to play that game, and there's no winning. i've learned it's just not worth it to try and conform to satisfy what others want from your body and identity when instead i can just try and transition to the extent that i want (...and to the extent that cisnormativity is also a necessary safety measure in a violently anti-trans society). you come out, and they say they want you to look like X before they'll call you X. you change your appearance, and they say they won't call you X until you're legally X. you take HRT, you change your legal name and legal gender, and they say you aren't really X until you've had surgery to be X. you get gender-affirming surgery, and they say you will never be X because you don't have the right sex chromosomes. you can't win when you play by their rules. i even get this from "allies" who support trans people only so long as those trans people are conventionally binary and cisnormative. the minute you cut your hair wrong or offend them, suddenly you aren't trans enough for them.
Great comment, and I wholeheartedly agree; there's never winning with people who are committed to misunderstanding you. You fix something about yourself, they'll always find something else to criticize. Also insecurities & goals in general work like that. Once you're happy with something, you'll find something new to hyperfixate on. I think many, especially queer people go through this transition, from struggling to fit in, to conform, to letting go, silencing the critics (inside & outside) and just embracing their true self.
That immediate *knowing* that your pain is second nature and simply does not matter in this world, as a dark skinned black girl, is painfully familiar. I'm glad you included your experience later on. I haven't read The Bluest Eye yet because it takes a lot for me to work up the strength to read Ms. Morrison's brilliant work, and the familiarity of it all may hit harder than I ever realized. That little girl wanting to be beautiful so much she imagines herself so, never realizing (or never being encouraged to realize) she was always beautiful is very real. And in the end, like you said, what does it look like when you ARE granted access into beauty and desirability? You are often picked apart and prodded like a specimen in a lab, still not fully human, yet somehow propped up as "correct". It's endless. This was another great video 🖤
When I was ten years old my father thought to tell me how his friends said I was gaining weight, and in the tone he told me this, it was clearly meant to shame me--like, people are noticing, and it was time to get my act together. I was going through puberty. At the time, I was still a healthy weight, but it was clear the skinny body the adults were accustomed to would not continue naturally, I would have to intervene with diet and exercise in order to remain thin. When I think about this now I feel this sense of disgust. Who sits around and discusses the body of a child? I feel anger, like why would you say something so damaging to a little girl?
Some of my favourite darkskin musicians because the music industry just loves that paper bag: - Ari Lennox - Hamzaa - Soraia Ramos - Sampa The Great - Mentissa - Rachel Chinouriri - Lous and the Yakuza - Enny - PONGO - Tank and the Bangas - IZA - Sunny War - Nozi Sibiya - Rutshelle Guillaume - Arlo Parks - Yseult - Gyakie - Nnavy - Cat Burns - Doechii - Ray Blk - Yani Mo - Samara Joy - Yola *feel free to comment more
I think the chase for desirability and/or beauty has to do with women who are seen as undesirable are literally treated as sub human in each end every way. It might be a trap, but we all want to feel desired and wanted and treated as human. The way you frame it as being an actual trap because you are chasing something that isn't there to begin with and then become an object (not agent) of desire is so interesting and enlightening. Thank you very much for this video, and for sharing bits of you in the process. No one should ever have to go through what you went through, and I wish you much happiness ❤
@@neptunianvibes well the question there is: Who do you find desirable? Conventionally attractive people who are "out of your league?" I wont pretend i dont find plenty of conventionally attractive people pretty, but if you only find yourself chasing people because they are conventionally attractive, so much so that you try to be more desirable to be with them, perhaps it's time to look inward and assess why we have these preferences. Personally, as soon as I started asking myself why my standards for who's "desirable" are so narrow, not only did I begin to find all sorts of people pretty, but I found myself prettier as well.
We are not safe either way. It’s objectifying both ways. Either we are too ugly to be considered human essentially shrinking us to only an object or being so desired that we are objectified by being over sexualized.
As a fat person and someone who experienced sexual abuse as a child, I so related to this video. I was called fat and had aunties make comment about my body and make “who would want to marry you” comments since my preteen years. The painful thing is, I actually went back and watched some of those old home videos. I wasn’t actually that big. I was a bit taller and bigger than my petite and skinny cousins but I wasn’t fat. I still struggle with wanting to be desirable and not wanting to attract negative attention to my fat body at the same time. Thanks for making this video
I never had that type of comments because I was protected by my parents, mostly my father who was very authoritarian and his own family was literally scared of him....but I did get the sneaky "little plump", "fat" one and I was like you, just a healthy and a well fed child, I wasn't fat. Few decades later I was looking at my pictures when I was a child and I was crying by this realisation, that I wasn't "fat" or "ugly", people were just jealous, there I said it. And if that's you on your picture, well, you're stunning and I'm sure you were an extremely beautiful child, that's why some bad folks will be ready to ruin your confidence because they were scared actually, scared by your beauty and how their kids won't be noticed if they're standing next to you. You'll get bad attention as well as good attention, you can't prevent yourself from shining only to prevent "bad" attention , that's unfair to yourself and you owe yourself the right place and the right value for YOU. So what's needed? Boundaries, people with bad attention can be shut off easily if you stand firm and don't allow bullshit, as simple as that. That's what I had to learn, I figured that the issue isn't really my weight (now I have a "normal" weight BMI wise), it was my need to be seen as a "good girl", people respect those who say "no", those who have boundaries and they know that they have your respect and attention when you let them be close to you and have your attention. If you have that same issue, try to be that "bitch" for these bad people, your life will be much much better and you'll be fabulous. God bless you.
I figured out decades ago that as a woman, the most powerful currency I could have was my looks and attractiveness at a societal level. It sucks, but I didn't wanna be on food stamps like my mom, so I accepted the rules and started playing the game. Long story short, I generally have the life I was aiming for way back then. I personally, primarily view and use it as a means to reach my goals. In combination with my education, intelligence, and other skills.
I think this is a healthy way to deal with it on your own. I feel part of escaping the trap is recognizing it but purposefully building something outside of it on the inside. Having a deeper inner world to cushion never having desirability or the loss of it in aging or losing it to an accident/health problem. I think if you are not preparing for that you will suffer an identity loss. Similar to the concept in developmental psychology called role loss that can happen and cause depression. If you have built up other things in yourself you can fall back on (not just financially since that can collapse outside of your control too) it will be a softer landing emotionally and internally.
honestly, more power to you. You didn't start this game, you didn't make the rules, but we all have to play the game whether we want to or not. It makes sense to me to reduce as much harm as you can for as long as possible. No one is going to leave the game unscathed so the best you can do is to try to control how much damage you take and what gets damaged. Sending love 💞
@@catcat9582 I don't recommend any specific career. I'd suggest researching career paths that fit your personality type and how you like to interact (or not) with people, choose the most lucrative position in that path, and get the education/training/experience/connections to get that particular career.
Getting older and being less 'pretty' as a femme has been interesting. I remember men old enough to be my father hitting on me when I was still a teenager, and yet I look back at pictures of myself back then and I looked very awkward and 'incomplete' (if that makes sense..?) I hadn't quite figured out how to put myself together in a way that made me feel completely comfortable in my own skin. But I think maybe it was the surface-level 'pretty' and vulnerability of youth that made me 'desirable'. Now that I am older, I feel far more confident and beautiful than I ever did at 17, but am basically invisible to cis men (thank goodness). Within a cis/heteropatriarchy prettiness seems to be something that is desireable in the same way that a sports car - a woman that can wield prettiness, and man that can access it has gained a key social commodity.
Me and my friend have spoken about this - how the older we get men don’t hit on us like when we were kids which is disturbing and really puts things into perspective.
As a person who was sexually objectified way before I should have been, as a child. IDGAF about desirability, I'm a young woman still suffering on how to express/view myself because so many people would attach their perspectives onto me & would strip me of my personhood to entertain the possibility of possessing me. While simultaneously being judged for being unambiguously black but light enough to be fuckable. They want you as arm candy and a secret side piece. I'm gorgeous enough to ruin relationships you want bc you want to taste me but not to make a life partner apparently 🙃 despite my personality being loving n sweet by nature. To sum it up, they don't look further than my shell & the femininity I possess on the outside. It's annoying asf.
the solution is simple sis, ignore them, because dick and words are the cheapest thing a man could do for you. does their action show they love you for you, do they pay attention to the small things you like, importantly do they go out of their way for you. more times than often if you picked a hobby you were passionate about you'd meet similar like minded people, they'd like you more for than just looks because you guys have similar interest.
@@vibez.no.cartel it's not that simple. Ignoring some men will make them think they have the right to take what they want from you and be violent. It happens all the time.
@@mammajamma4397 remove yourself from the area, call out for service help : waiters, bouncers, security etc. Cos these morons aren't going to disappear we can only teach our children how to behave, and take action to safe guard ourselves..
Love your commentary. This definitely made me reflect on my younger years as an “undesirable” or a “pretty for a dark skin girl” days and it sucked because you can see who is desired and the ones who may have liked you just didn’t say anything…. Whew
This is it! Dating American men in their 20s is something I’ll never do again, because so many of them struggled with their attraction to me. As if to say, “well I didn’t really expect you to be my equal, and a compelling woman overall.” 😂
Part 3 really got me because I've seen that trajectory for too many women and girls in my personal life. Those that grew up feeling outside of the sphere of desirability and the resulting vulnerability to certain types of manipulation and treatment. I had this dark-skinned friend growing up and she was truly so beautiful but she was plagued with doubt and self-hatred. When we got to our late teens and the pressure to be desirable in the right way became ever greater, she really leaned into twisting herself into this traditional ideal of femininity - almost trying to be like a housewife barbie doll type even though it had never really been her. After a while she met this guy and we drifted apart when I told her that he was less than mediocre and she deserved better. At some point he started abusing and cheating on her. When we eventually started talking again it seemed like what was keeping her staying was this feeling like she felt she was worth more because she’d been chosen -specifically by a white guy - and that had somehow validated her value as a woman, her performance of femininity. Having more understanding of these things now, I believe that she’d got caught up in this game we’re made to play across the hierarchy of white supremacy. It locks certain people out but still promises that although they may never be able to get to the top, they’ll be treated better or get more if they can exert themselves to climb as high as they can towards that ideal. It’s the curse of living under a standard that posits the white gaze as the ultimate - the one to perform for and appease. And I feel like people like my friend’s boyfriend understand that (be it consciously or not) and they seek out girls they can treat however because those girls won’t believe they deserve better. They’ll tolerate whatever because they’re told they’re lucky to be associated with the kind of someone that can ‘validate’ their desirability in a way that matters - according to societal norms.
That white gaze is heavy... it's like worrying less about whether you can be attractive to yourself in a way that best complements the person you are & more about trying to be attractive to the people that have the most social currency and worth under white supremacist patriarchy. Like their approval means more, holds more weight and therefore solidifies your worth more than if that approval came from yourself or those around you, even the ones that actually care about your well-being & true self expression.
Your content and perspective is so important, being a POC and oppressed for your gender, race, color, nuero-divergence, class is so difficult for many reasons, but we typically have no voice in our western-white capitalist society. Particularly we need to have a perspective from someone with an academic and culturally literate point of view. SO basically thanks for doing what you do!
Like beauty, desirability is in the eye of the beholder. Some people desire name brand makeup, others hate makeup altogether. Some people desire vast wealth, other people are anti-materislist. It's amazing how many things in life that are deemed desirable and important in society are actually the most trivial and useless things to exist.
I want to write a film about my experience growing up in a wealthy white suburb in the american south as the only dark skinned black girl but i can never quite put my finger in the main theme of what im writing about, now i understand the story im trying to tell is one of my relationship to my own desirability in my youth as a result of being so othered in a mostly white community. thank you so much for this video.
I had a semi-related childhood. I went to a white, wealthy private school as a poor Black kid. They hazed me my first year there. I othered myself from that point on. I was there from 5th grade to 12th, and just observed them as I got my education. Those 8 years shaped my perspective on wealth, whiteness, and the lie that is America.
Desirability is to me maybe the worst thing in existence. Because damned if you do, damned if you don't and there is always the idea of competition. And even if you choose not to play, that also doesn't save you. Because you can't tap out. You can't hide. We are social creatures and even if we painstakingly pick and choose the people who don't go the desirability is your only value route, we still exist within the bigger system that will punish you given the chance. Thanks. I hate it. The video is fantastic. Thank you for making and sharing it. ❤️
I had a strange perspective on beauty standards between white and black women. I observed that tanning is an obligation for white people, so as a child I made the assumption that dark skin is desirable and white/pink skin is not. And then the Internet blows up and I realise that tan and black skin is not always a desirable trait. It was weird to know that some people with dark skin made an effort to have lighter skin while I'm thinking they won the melanin jackpot.
People really just want to look different and even "exotic" nothing can be done about that unfortunately...biggest example is the Kardashian-Jenner clan.
Your conclusion at the end where you kinda just want to curl in on yourself and go 'I hope people just find someone who thinks they're hot and also cares about them beyond the shell' is where I always end up. It truly is a damned if you do and damned if you don't and it's so difficult to figure out what to do with that. I will also say that having a parent that, while they never say a denigrating word to you about your looks, has to deal their own slippery struggle with desirability and they say harsh words to themselves. A kid can definitely go 'but I look like you?' And gah, it feels like putting so much pressure on the parent (especially if they've already made sure to not degrade their child's or other people's looks) to have already worked through this impossiblecatch-22 internally. Just fgdhjfd anyway, this topic is difficult. And lmao I have never figured out the difference between redbone and yellowbone either jgdffbhdb I used to think it was an undertone thing, but was told 'nah' but they then proceeded to not tell me what the difference was then lmao. Thanks for the video!
Zora's Daughters podcast had an episode where they talked about this. A redbones undertone (supposedly) indicates Indigenous blood, whereas a yellowbone's undertone (supposedly) indicates having European ancestry. I say supposedly because African Americans have such mixed ancestry at this point that who's to say which is standing out more.
Thank you for this video. So many times I’ve heard women who are conventionally attractive/desirable say things like “Looking like this is a curse, women who don’t look like me are the lucky ones because they don’t get abused and harassed”. And like you say that is just not true.
I can relate to Keyshawn's experience of feeling undesirable growing up, as a dark-skinned girl in the suburban South. Then, growing up and realizing that you're pretty. It's a weird vibe, especially when people feel entitled to invade your space and touch you. At first I didn't understand it, but now I do. People don't know how to behave and feel entitled to invade a woman's space
The way that "clouds" attacked me. I nearly stopped breathing. Having "black" features as a child was not attractive and getting bullied for what people pay for now is mind boggling. The salt I felt growing up just for being me... I felt seen today. Thank you
I love Toni Morrison and I adore the bluest eye. She writes so beautifully about such a complex and universal topic like it’s so visceral. I thought it significant the emphasis put on eyes, it reminded me of Sartre’s idea of the gaze and the consequences of being gazed upon by the ‘other’ When I heard that little passage I was like hold up?? Now I gotta re read it
23:05 Reminds me of acid attacks against women. To “take away” their desirability so if the man was rejected by a woman, he’d still “have her” because “no one else would want her.” Just awful
[TRIGGER WARNING] This is a fragment of the way I used to feel in my childhood. This is a personal experience and I am not comparing to anyone else). I was the only colored person in one of the sides of my family. When I was 5, I was already fully aware that My features of “bad hair”, “big nose”, “skin color of p**p” as I grew up hearing were the reason that I was not born to be loved. I was born to be left behind, to be made fun of, to be used, to serve and be a helper to the people with desirable features. I had a sense that I needed to be always the support character if I wanted to be accepted. I used to imagine myself being born white, blue eyes, with the hair of a Disney Princess, so I would deserve to be loved. All the cruelty and abandonment happened because of me. What a sad thing for a kiddo to think.
Growing up, I was not only groomed but was also sought out by men much older than me since I was 14 years old. I was always told how pretty I am. Since I've come out as non binary, cut my hair short, and gained 20lbs, I have had less problems with the whole desirability aspect from everyone. And yet, I keep wanting to put in hair extensions, loose weight, play with makeup, because cosplaying as hyperfeminine is at times, the only time I feel attractive. Just some silly thoughts I wanted to share. Thank you for creating a platform where I can feel safe to share these thoughts :)
This is a fascinating comment! I don't understand enough about non-binary gender expression to ask questions in the right way, but there's so much more I'd love to know about your story.
This relates to me. I was classified as a lolita where because I was more developed I had older men always trying to get with me. There was even a kidnapping attempt (my mum had a security guard with me) and I think that subconsciously made me gain weight to detour these advances. Then hs was a blast of divine femininity where all my friends were Into boys and makeup and weight loss and everyone was going on day. It's except for me and being dark skinned and predominantly white schooling system ended up putting on more pressures. I know that if I didn't have a supportive family whose members also experienced this, I wouldn't be here today. Nonbinary, yet still dealing with internal misogyny, colorism, and self-worth. Focusing on my education helped bc I learned to be more than just an object of desire and became a weapon of knowledge and power.
Great video. I’m 26 and still unpacking my relationship to desirability. I used to get teased for being chubby and my friends would constantly touch me without my consent. As a adult I’m fully understanding how colorism and fatphobia makes it hard for me to want to date.
If you don’t mind, could you elaborate on how this effected you in dating because I think I may have the same issue. I don’t know what it is but something just feels off when it comes to dating as someone who is dark skin and was considered fat.
"The Bluest Eye" is my favorite book. I found myself crying throughout the book. The ending really hurt so much. R.I.P Toni Morrison ♥️ she was a true gem
Desirability will always depend in part from beauty standard which I learned the hard way, I will never be able to fit into. Like you say, its a moving target that changes from place, time and many other factors. Growing up chubby and still dealing with weight issues today, I realized that I'm not visually desirable to many people and that is okay precisely because its temporary and It has nothing to do with me. But the inner beauty thou, that one never goes away and is as valuable or even more valueable than the outside beauty. Growing older you learn that beauty is subjective and that you wont be everyone cup of tea, and that being desirable for your looks is okay but is not everything, because we are more than the biodegradable shell we are contained in.
This was a good breakdown of desirability. After being undesirable and suddenly desirable myself, over these past few years, I'm finally understanding that it's important to love what's inside of you bcus that is what lasts a lifetime.
Overall great video! Sorry I have to get on my soapbox about a line towards the end. When people say things like they “love to be objectified… depending on who it is,” that isn’t objectification. You are talking about consenting to someone ogling you, and maybe more; this makes you a willing participant in the activity and have agency to set boundaries. Objectification turns people into objects, and not in the grammatical subject verb object sense, in the inanimate thing sense. Such objects lack will and agency. Therefore if someone clearly and actively consents, it’s not objectification. Using the term to describe consensual s3xual activities amongst adults only muddies the waters. Please stop using “objectification” like this, especially when reaching a larger general audience.
I disagree that if "someone clearly and actively consents" to something then that is not objectification. Take for instance the video for WAP. Megan and Cardi are sexually objectifying themselves, but they are the ones who created the video and consented to being presented in an objectified way. And in terms of sex between two or more people, some people genuinely like being treated as objects or playthings. That is objectification, but it is also consensual.
@@gabbym333 no, that’s misusing the term “objectification”. That’s pretend play, and the people involved do not give up their agency or ability to withdraw consent. In WAP, Cardi and Megan hold the power; they aren’t the objects. Objectification strips people of their power and ability to withdraw consent. Let’s look at another scenario to demonstrate the point. Sometimes children will pretend to be a dog and the family will play along. Would you use the same word for that game when parents treat their child like a literal dog, do things like lock the child in a kennel while they leave the house for a few hours? Or can you see how those are different and require different language?
Thank you for pointing this out. This is something i have noticed a lot of cis straight Asian guys, cis straight SWANA guys, white AMAB enbies, fat cis white gals, and nerdy/geeky cis straight guys say a lot and it is so annoying because a lot of them also ignored how dangerous objectification is to WOC and queer POC.
This is a great video, i remember losing wait (tell i gained it back) that alone had folks treating me so differently. I think that was the only time folks treated me human. Society, men and women alike show how foul they are when your seen as unattractive and undesirable.
@Khadija Mbowe it is what it is. I've learned alot from it. And i dont know if i would of valued people for who they are if it wasn't for that, i may of been as vain as society. Maybe not, but i kno, i value people for who they are, not what they look like or what they can give me. It was a trip to lose wait and watch ppl you know switch up though.
@@OverthrowMedia same thing happened to me. Lost the weight (for health reasons) and people showed how ugly they are inside. And lost some friends because I was only supposed to be the ugly fat friend. Apparently I was always the steping ground for people to feel better about themselves. I never called them ugly or tore them down or fed an insecurity but man did I not receive the same treatment back. Everybody has different traits that are beautiful. I just wish they saw that.
@MewMewSun ya it was different for me when i lost weight all the sudden women who literally wouldn't even speak to me plutonicly where trying to sleep with me. Home boys that where koo but at a distance all the sudden wanted to be besties, open opportunities for me ect. Full switch up, same with the people who didnt like me. All the sudden they where friendly. Just example after example of that shit which left again when i gained wait back.
@holachica97 First of all, it really doesn't make sense not to use what you have to move through the world. It's one thing to commodify someone else's looks for your own gain, and it's quite another to commodify your own. Second, desirability IS commodification, anyway. Sexual desire is connected to power, and power to safety. I've always said that we're attracted to who we want to be, and we attract who we actually are but don't want to admit to ourselves. Desirability, like business, is ASPIRATIONAL in nature. If we're not attracted to someone because we feel they can give us power we cannot give ourselves, then we're attracted to whoever we think will project the power we seek.
You can be attractive and have a healthy relationship too. lol Why put limit? One just has to be more aware of the ppl they interact with. Set boundaries and limit who gets access to you no matter how you look. The ones who are worth your time, energy, and love will be made clear, and the others will reveal themselves one way or another.
@@FabalociousDee Do you also think it doesn't make sense not to use what you have to move through the world if someone is a rich white cis male, or someone who works for a corporation that manipulates people or destroys the environment? Just checking
Oh, that abuse by desirability hits me hard in the feelings. When I was like five, I watched people treat pretty women like they were stupid, and I remember looking at myself in the mirror and deciding I would never be pretty because I wanted to be taken seriously. The first guy to tell me I was beautiful turned out to be an abusive ass, and used my conflicted reactions to that as part of his leverage.
I really appreciate this video. Thank you for getting into the nuance of desirability. It always seemed so you know desirable as a dark skinned black girl raised in a predominantly white area. I was surrounded by white women who always had a date or someone like them. I internalized that so fast that when I was in 3rd grade I remember telling my best friend at the time who was biracial and light that I was “too dark to be pretty.” I drew myself as white in photos and by the time I left elementary school I internalized the idea that people were attracted to other white people because they resembled their own family not because they were racist. I had to come up with excuses for why I was lacking to explain why I wasn’t desired. I recently did a whole lot of internal work on dismantling my jealousy and resentment towards the societally attractive white women I was around. When they would get into toxic relationships it would be hard for me to empathize because I was like why don’t you date someone nice. Everyone likes you it can’t be that hard. But the problem is. It is. My friend who were desirable in high school were either in abuse relationships or were dating men in their 20s. They were groomed, taken advantage of, and lied to. All because they were children with pretty faces. They were victims in their own way and are dealing with their own trauma just like I’m dealing with mine. I still ended up in an unhealthy relationship towards the end of high school and in college and after it was over I went back to being invisible. Now that I’m a bit older though I’m really grateful for all the invisibility and rejection. It honestly kept me safe until I found someone who liked me for me. Especially as someone who’s on the Ace spectrum. It hurt I’m working through it but I honestly prefer to be invisible. It makes me feel safe.
I’m a white queer ace person, and I can’t relate entirely to you because I’m white, but the way you talked about looking at those friends relationships from the outside, realizing the nuance of oppression from their end, and your relationship to invisibility really resonated.
Another thing I noticed which I feel like is false,is this notion that confidence attracts people. And I think that's absolutely untrue the times in my life that I have been approached most have been the times that I felt the least confident, and the times that I felt the most confident for whatever reason I do not get approached, by men especially. Desirability is 1000% about how other people perceive you and honestly can have nothing to do with how you perceive yourself. I think using desirability as a marketing tool for a business it's okay because we all know that money is a lie. But when it becomes a part of your inner dialogue and intervision of yourself, girl you in danger!
I got way more emotional than I expected to - this one hits close to home. I spent my entire upbringing (till I was 18 basically) believing I am undesirable. It's only if you've experienced it do you understand how obsessed with the concept you can become; how all your thoughts slowly devolve into hating yourself every time you see yourself in a mirror or even imagine yourself from someone else's pov. I experienced it again last year. I was at a party, talking to 2 of my guy friends. One moment they're both trying to hold my attention, the next they're both fixated on another girl (I can't blame them, she is beautiful). I tried adding to the conversation at certain points, 5 times, and each time it was like no one could hear me. After the 3rd time I felt like I was invisible. After the 5th time I decided I couldn't take it so I walked away. I tried to clear my head and talk to my other friends and I just kept thinking back to what had happened. Eventually I went to the bathroom and just dry sobbed to get it out my system - it helped. Worst night ever because the next day I went to a party and with the residual nerves of the same thing happening I got so drunk in the effort to be less uptight. I did it again at the next party. So now I've had to stop drinking at parties because I like my liver 😂 TL;DR - thanks for the video! Based on my many experiences: you nailed everything perfectly
This hits close to home. I'm a cis-woman. We were 2 black kids in an all white school (in Scandinavia) and I remember struggling soooo much with my looks after years of being bullied, trying to look "whiter" by straightening (ruining) my hair, making myself small for white people to accept me, not be "like the other blacks" and all kinds of sick stuff I'm sure I don't have to explain because you know. It took me 25 years to finally be able to start loving myself the way I am and today at 33 I can finally say I don't give a sh*t about being desirable or catering to anybody, haha. It took YEARS of intensive self-work and deprogramming to be able to say I'm f*cking amazing any which way and actually mean it, and I no longer need anyone else to tell me. I can genuinely say I love myself, my black body and awesome natural hair. It's the highest achievement to finally accept yourself and be at peace. I look back at my younger self and I feel so much compassion and understanding and I'm sometimes amazed that I've managed to come out on the other side, if that makes sense. I feel so bad for anyone else going through this and I wish for everyone to be able to deprogram and be at peace and have deep love for themself. Desirability is a scam, especially when it's rooted in eurocentrism and mis0gyni. The only one you truly need to impress is yourself. Also, regarding ageism, I am CONVINCED that people (het cis-men mostly) hate on aging women because many women reach this "I don't give a f*ck about any of this nonsense anymore" when they get older, and Patriarchy can't have happy, self-fulfilled and confident women running around, now can they. Better dampen their spirit by calling them "undesirable" and keep them insecure for their whole life. I say screw that. My life and relationship with myself only gets better as I age and I'd much rather be a happy, healthy and fulfilled old hag than an insecure wreck basing my whole worth as a human being on whether or not other people find me "pretty" or f*ckable for the rest of my life. Don't fall for it.
As a former "fat kid," who is racially ambiguous and an anorexia survivor I've always struggled to explain these points to people, probably in part by the fact that people did not want to understand Thank you
Being harmed either way is something I struggled to understand as a kid. From my experience, desirability is subjective person to person, yet "objective" in the yt supremacist definition. This topic is honestly really sad because regardless of the "objective" desirability, people (especially women and femmes) are harmed. Nobody is "too ugly" or "too pretty" to be attacked, which means none of us are safe no matter how we look/present. Some people really don't believe that, when it's very obviously true. Literally just look at the stats and you'll see the beauty stuff protects very few, if any, people. And don't even get me started on the self-esteem issues because not feeling valued as a human being is so common on both sides (for different reasons).
Watching this video reminds me of a recent post of a little 4yr old dark skin black girl was getting her hair done and, she saw herself in the recording and said " I'm ugly!" She burst into tears! Or when folks compared Blue Ivy to North West because of her " black features". Just fucked up! Makes me HATE this world😢
feeling undesirable as a young person coupled with other things caused an eating disorder that ruined my life. Thank you for this uncomfortably revealing video
I'm almost 30, and all the rejection I have experienced in my life coupled with all the "I want to fuck you in secret but don't want to date you" relationships I have had have really fucked with my head. I still remember clear as day a guy I was "seeing" at the time telling me that I'd be hot if I lost weight. And my only response was "yeah kinda rude to say but he's right though." And I am just always baffled at myself, watching myself from inside thinking like "You really are worth more than how you're being treated" but still accepting being treated like shit anyway. And it has made me honestly scared of losing weight (and also getting rid of my acne, both). What if I actually do become "desirable"? What happens then? It really scares me. And yet, I get sad when I post a picture of myself to my guy friends and none of them say I'm pretty or cute or anything because they "don't want to be called a simp." It's so complicated and just exhausting at this point.
While I'm thin and white I suck at makeup and look rather unremarkable. I'm basically the nerdy sidekick, though not ugly enough to be ostracized by the "pretty girls", and apparently okay to be seen with. But while I'm mostly just invisible to people as a non-asexual person, I've seen how poorly not only fat people are treated, but I've received some nasty comments myself when I was in a relationship with an overweight guy. I was so appalled finding out the assholes I was surrounded by, I cut off all contact with two former friends because of it. Someone even started a rumour that I was "into fat guys" as if I was the weird one and not them being so preoccupied with my bf's looks. It's been years ago but I'm still angry writing this. This is likely what those "I want to fuck you in secret" people fear. At least the types I've heard about, this seems to be a common theme when someone isn't considered conventionally attractive compared to whatever is currently trending. That they'd have to confront other ppls shitty behaviour and their friends will out themselves as shallow assholes. Maybe they have other motives for keeping those assholes around, or maybe they're more conflict averse. Maybe they've internalized this bs and view a "real relationship" as owning someone for other peoples approval, regardless of who they're attracted to or not. Who knows. Now that I'm no longer naive to this possibility, it's actually a bit scary, but I'd still prefer to know who to weed out of my social circle. On the other hand, sometimes, people don't want any relationship for completely unrelated reasons. I'm currently in the situation that I don't want to be tied down in case I'm moving overseas, and I don't want to make this decision harder than it already is. On top of that most people aren't 100% well tbh. I'm barely getting my own life in order and can't deal with other peoples issues rn. I'm also currently a conflict averse hypocrite and don't want to have to fight my parents to do whatever the fuck I want that's not marriage and kids. Oh well. And now someone is getting suspicious about my motives despite me being as clear as possible from the start. While this person isn't fat they have other insecurities. Like everyone else apparently. Aaaahhh
I just started reading bell hooks and your videos do a GREAT job of evolving those concepts of race and gender into the next generation(s). Thank you!!!
It's crazy how easily society can create insecurities you didn't have before. For me, 2 insecurities I never thought I'd have were my nails and eyebrows until everyone started obsessing over and judging those things.
The Bluest Eye was one of my favorite books in middle school. Along with The Skin I’m In. As little black girl who grew up in poverty I understood the feelings. I definitely need to re-read The Bluest Eye as an adult now that I can process more.
THAT SKIN PART REALLY GOT TO ME I would like to describe myself as a non-typical black male who doesn’t fit the stereotypes and I’ve been watching a lot of black women talk about these concepts, and as somebody who feels like an outcast within the black community I really relate to this video a lot. It sucks that your skin can be a trap or people have assumptions and prejudice towards you. He is almost a paradox that people in Meyer, the culture that surrounds it, but truly people do not appreciate and may or may take you as a threat. I really do love my skin. I won’t trade it for anything in the world and hopefully in the next life I wish to be black again because at the end of the day, there’s some legitimacy in it, but at the same time it feels like the comments make me think otherwise. Not gonna lie I’m really glad that this woman spoke on some shit that’s probably been plaguing us all.
Disiarability is a scam and taxing. Like no matter what you do people are going to go out of their way to find a reason to dislike you, make you feel inferior, and bully you until they get a sense of control. Its such bullshit and growing up with it destroys you inside out. Gonna read the bluest eye, and also talking abt heavy topics like this is taxing so its understandable to feel tired. You're one of my fav creators and you deserve to feel valued and respected and taken care of
This is a topic I find fascinating but its concepts feel like they are constantly slipping through my fingers, I can never quite grab them and keep them in a way I can conceptualize and manipulate in my mind. Desirability is emotionally and conceptually intangible to me, I can’t nail it down on either a societal level or a personal/emotional one. The best thing that I ever realized/put into words was: “Pretty isn’t the goal.” It seems so simple and so obvious, but it took me forever to get there. If I don’t look good that day, it shouldn’t throw me as much as it did/does. That sentiment is what I always try to remind myself when my entire day’s mood is thrown off by a glance in the mirror. I’m someone who adequately fits standards of beauty, not to any extreme degree, I’m not a knock-out, but I’m “pleasant-looking.”(?) And I remember being a kid/adolescent and implicitly understanding the valuation of desirability even though I couldn’t put words to it. My parents (specifically my mom) had decided at some point that they wouldn’t emphasize or compliment us on our appearance when we were young, my parents said outfits looked good, or a haircut, or a style fit you, but not any of those unchangeable things/features. But I still felt this pressure to maintain something that I couldn’t quite put into words. I felt like I had to be better, act better, look good more often and it felt like I would be a disappointment if I didn’t live up to it. I really wanted that external validation that I looked good, but I also felt like I would be narcissistic/shallow to want that, and I also would malfunction if a family member did compliment my appearance because it was so odd to me for a family member to mention it. When I was 14, I was really self-conscious about an outfit and was panicking in my moms room asking her if it looked good and she told me “Don’t fish for compliments” and I said back “have you considered that I genuinely am self-conscious about this outfit and need to know whether it looks good?” She said it was fine and then 10 minutes later she came up to me and said “[name], I want you to know that you are pretty, but if you were horribly disfigured in an accident you would still have worth and value.” And then she walked away. So I’m pretty sure she was just trying really hard to make it so that our sense of self was separate to appearance but damn was I wanting for some “prettiness” validation - which I still feel bad about if I’m honest … that want to be shallowly admired. Anyway, I think it’s a really interesting topic, and I love explorations like this with character/famous persons as a frame for analysis. In terms of the modern rap/hip-hop gals that don’t necessarily lean into desirability as part of their music presentation, 10/10 would recommend Tierra Whack, I love her music. Thanks for the video!!
I think that feeling of not knowing how to think of desirability is something you described very well.Because it's not that someone calls you ugly or anything, it's just the absence of a compliment or noticing that someone who maybe put more what society deems to attractive into their appearance gets more attention, people approach them, compliment them and they get the social interaction that you notice other people who "aren't" don't. And there are so many factors and different ways for people to notice this, this can be noticed by size and body type, by skin tone, by height by clothes etc. There are many ways to notice it and it can cause a person to look inward and subconconnciously want it. I think this is a natural thing, but it becomes as bad as a day being ruined because the outfit you planned no longer looks how you want it or maybe you didn't get to spend a certain amount of time on your appearance before you left the house that day. It shouldn't be that discouraging but it is because of the society we live in. And honestly regardless of gender the farther you are from a certain standard the more it can hurt. I really feel you when it comes to not wanting to be discouraged by something so shallow, like we can't even see ourselves throughout the day and yet we're so worried and for what? It is lame. but it is real. Pretty isn't goal but in some ways pretty can insert itself everywhere. In love, in work, in friendship. most times you get lucky and it doesn't but it does it sure sucks.
I love this comment. I grew up in abusive home so I got called a "lil ho" whenever I was trying to dress like other girls & be pretty. My mom was very hostile towards me while putting herself down. Her insecurities really rubbed off on me. My sense of self was severely distorted. So naturally I craved validation, but only found myself being used for ego boosts. All while I felt horribly ugly & worthless. I never felt justified when trying to open up about my insecurities, people just literally said "I don't think you need to be told you're pretty". I just wanted to be understood. Many people have said I'm pretty, but at the same time some other people say I'm truly ugly. I just wish there was a healthy middle ground, I still sometimes struggle with my self-esteem at 28yo
I just have to say, I love that your mom was conscious of how she wanted to raise you, and was conscious that her words would affect what your inner world would become. I also love that she came back and tried to give you what you needed without doing any psychological damage to you. Too bad there are way more people outside, and they can really do a doozy on us.
the concept of attractiveness is similar to that of whiteness. it's put on a pedestal, there are privileges attached to it, and if people can't be it then they're made to feel like their proximity to it is the next best thing. there's even the similar aspect of its very meaning being subject to cultural changes that then make obtaining it or being close to it that much harder. you also have people who engage in performative behaviors in the hopes that they'll be socially rewarded by being seen as part of or the chance to get close to that which they desire. like publicly announcing one's disdain for dark-skinned black women, being really vocal about not being attracted to fat people, etc.
This is my struggle am trying so hard to be accepted by people and society but i find it painful when other women are accepted but not me its like what am.i lacking???
people have made it quite clear to me throughout my life (sometimes in disgusting ways) that they do find me desirable, and it’s so … ostracising? i’m nd and have anxiety disorder so already i find it so hard to socialise, but the desirability plays a definite role. people won’t speak to me, i’m called intimidating because of my appearance so i get avoided, men will instantly cease talking to me once they learn i have a partner and the men who talk to my partner either sexualise me or won’t talk about me/us at all because they know they will sexualise me and it won’t fly. girls have resented me and turned their backs on me (the root of a lot of my anxiety stems from that ostracisation). it’s a real double-edged sword. you look how society wants you to look, and so they expect what they want of you too, expect you to please them and be in service of them effectively, impose sexualisation on you when you never asked for it. within that imposition, they don’t allow any space for your agency. you are not a person anymore but a thing, and any other skills or traits you might have must not be real at all
love this essay, and you're right it's a damn difficult topic to talk about. Like: people will act upon you from their expectations of how you SHOULD be based on how THEY THINK you look, and when you... don't act in concert with those expectations and... don't SHARE those assessments of your looks or... have a HISTORY of being constantly told the opposite, they get angry. THEY get upset and treat it like a failing, or trickery, in YOU that you are not conforming to their expectations of how you SHOULD act, SHOULD feel, SHOULD think about yourself, SHOULD have been treated by others in the past based on their opinion of you now. And none of that is at ALL your fault and yet THAT'S how society treats it; as something you 'do' to other people or things that should be 'true' about you because they're all part of the trope in their heads. It's so tangled up and difficult to work through. Calling beauty a trap is absolutely correct.
desirability/lookism is so ingrained in us that i even had to catch myself watching when you talked abt being viewed as ugly when you were younger because i realized that there was still that voice in my head saying that was sad not just in and of itself but because you are beautiful now. like what does it say that were trained to even afford pity differently based on someones looks? fantastic video as always
You're beautiful, Khadija... and you're intelligent and articulate. You're important, and your voice is necessary at this time. You had to go thru certain things to be who you are and make the difference that you do. 💯 I appreciate you bringing who you are and the vulnerability of your experiences to us. You're gorgeous, too... I hope you know that. Being beautiful is great but being more than just that is better... and you are a whole package my dear.
My major takeaway from this is that we spend to much time asking questions about being desirable, but not enough about what we do and how we act when desiring others.
Khadija, I’ve been watching your videos for a few years and just wanted to let you know sorta bare bones that you are genuinely one of the most beautiful/attractive people I have ever seen - like point blank. not just for your looks but for your intelligence and how articulate and funny you are. NEVER doubt yourself!!!
15:07 "People don't tend to realize the effect their words and actions have on others (...), not even taking the time to think about what damage it could do to a child to feel undesired by an entire society". This made me tear up. As an Eastern-european girl who grew up speaking the "wrong" language and from an early age hearing how bad people who speak it are, it made me feel useless, taking up space, unworthy and unlovable. Like I was not SAFE anywhere I went, because I was still esentially me, even if I spoke the preffered language and concealed the first language I learned to speak. I felt deeply ashamed of myself, my family. Like there was something inherently wrong with me just based on the fact of cultural ancestry. I hid it as well as I could and it filled every waking moment with anxiety and sense of danger (what if they found out? they would disown me, hurt me). And it's hard to grow out of that as an adult. Talking about it in therapy helps in understanding it, but it's so built into me that I don't know if this anxiety of not-belonging, not being good enough on a cellular level will ever go away. Khadija, thank You for Your thought and emotion-provoking videos. Very happy to have found Your channel.
I read that book for my African Lit class! I'm glad I took it. I learned a lot and it opened and expanded my worldview a lot. It's a class I still think about a lot, and I'm glad I can watch your channel too that talks about such social issues. I really agree with you that desirability is a trap.
The clouds section was heartbreaking, I can never imagine those feelings you went through. I didn’t grow up desired or pretty, I was an awkward geeky kid, but I never had to worry about my skin color because I’m pale white and would get complimented based on how pale I was. It was one of my only desirable points. To hear from your point of view, it made me re-evaluate my own childhood. Thank you for your videos and your ability to always let me reflect on myself
I've been thinking about desirability so much throughout my life. It always felt out of reach, but then I finally accepted myself and transitioned and now I feel like it's possible to be desired in a way I felt completely disconnected to before. Because even if I still don't fit the insane standards of beauty applied to women, I love my body so much just for being what it is. I have a complicated relationship with desirability now, where sometimes it feels so important and other times it feels irrelevant, but ultimately I'm just so happy with being myself that it's easier to put up with the times I feel undesirable. It does help that my QPP tells me how attractive I am all the time 🥰
17:11 This comment about being fat. Fat and/or transgender and/or dark-skinned or... This video gutted me. Thank you, thank you, thank you for releasing it! So many of us are going through some form of this.
Whew...this brought me back to my undergrad college course. I was an English Major and Africana Studies Minor and I took a class where I had to read every Toni Morrison book (she even released a book that year). Basically, a heavy traumatic Toni book every week and omg, it wrecked me. I would be sobbing, typing up my written homework response while suffering flashbacks triggered by Morrison's stories that always include some form of SA on black women, especially young black girls. I don't know how I survived that class and now I have a whole shelf of Morrison books in my personal library.
your points about how people use ice spice's music quality as an opening for broad-spectrum, unconstructive criticism is familiar. when someone has already decided they don't like something because of bias against a certain demographic, they'll pick anything "acceptable" to try and make their criticisms seem more valid, and then devolve from there to unconstructive attacks. meanwhile, they're not putting that same energy into criticizing the thing from the other side of the demographic divide. (e.g. queer TV being hyperscrutinized for having mediocre writing or unhealthy relationships devolving to "all gay shows are bad", while media for straight people gets a free pass.) you can't win with them, because they're playing by their own rules.
As soon as I hit teenhood my classmates made it known to me very openly that I was not attractive or desirable. I was that kid who was the butt of the "I dare you to ask her out" joke that the boys would play. Puberty doesn't treat most of us well and that transitionary period was really rough for me. Especially because I didn't have the language or knowledge at the time that I was non-binary which only added more stress to my life because I didn't understand why it was so hard for me to feel comfortable in my own body, particularly when I was dressed feminine. I internalized the shame I felt about having excess fat, cystic acne, a hairy body and as soon as I could buy my own clothes I was dressing in strictly baggy menswear to cover myself up. I hid in my clothes. I hid behind heavy makeup. You hit the nail on the head when you said what defines beauty constantly shifts and evolves. Having a sister and a mother who are obsessed with looks taught me to chase after material things what would make me more beautiful. I had to learn for myself how to make myself more beautiful on the inside. And once I did that, I realized that physical appearances don't matter nearly as much as the beauty of someone's soul being. I no longer judge people on their looks anymore or criticize other people for their looks. I'm much more interested and hold more value in what someone's soul has to offer me.
girl, I was the "Africa" girl in a predominantly white community. white folk and black folk alike for years made fun of my "kaffirhare" (n*gga hair loosely translated) my skin the colour of sh*t (I kid you not, EXACT WORDS) and my full breasted ugly body (never skinny enough to be desirable). Somehow, in my mid 20s (maybe shifting beauty standards) I morphed into "a BEAUTY" and was celebrated as such for the first time in my life. But I still feel like that little girl who was mocked by her crush and his friend in front of the whole class and told I was very very ugly. But now sometimes I feel like public property, I almost miss being invisible.
I don't know if this is a normal reaction, but your video made me sob. I did not realize that I would find myself within the women you discussed, nor that this would hit so deep to the core. It does. As a black woman raised in South Carolina this reaches.
I don't want to give the impression that I want to compare or contrast or claim ownership of your experience, first of all, but I will say as a white, very fat person with "good bone structure" and was told growing up that I had a "pretty face" as a way for people to dodge their feelings about my body, I definitely relate to the feelings of dissonance you're describing. Growing up I started seeing the world of beauty through a heavily weight based lens that blinded me to the reality of myself. It's from this lens I want to say I've always appreciated the way you talk about fatness as seemingly just another trait, with its own unique nuances but also social categories that it gets lumped into outside of conventionally attractive. I have often had conventionally attractive friends and I used to envy and sometimes resent them until I opened myself up to the pain they were actually feeling, and spending time in a different context (the internet, in a niche community where my unique set of traits suddenly did become attractive, desirable) I got a little glimpse into how messy both ends of the see-saw are.
You do not know how badly I needed this. I was born with physical deformity and although I had felt desired by someone else the self-hatred is so real I can taste it but it's something I've really been working through and this was very helpful
Thank you so much for your videos Khadija. They have helped me so much, and have prompted me to unlearn so much of the bs that I have been conditioned to believe.
This is a great video. Thank you got sharing it with us. I used to do adult entertainment, specifically in the BBW niche, and the way I was being treated between that world and by my fans online versus the way I’m treated as a regular fat person in every day life was a total mind fuck. On one hand I have thousands of pervy men online doing the most for my attention, and then on the other hand I’m stared at, harassed, and excluded in many ways in the real world. I feel so unseen for the person I actually am either way though. All the fans want from me is this hyper sexual BBW fetish fantasy come to life and the rest of society just wishes heart disease and death on me.
When you talk about people wanting to possess beauty, it’s such a powerful and important aspect of being desirable, like yes ofc being desirable puts your foot in the door but there’s this aspect to it that is so gut wrenching, most often people don’t really see you, they only see your desirability and it sometimes gets difficult to navigate because you think you’re being heard or understood yet the other person Is probably disregarding your whole being because they’re too focused on your human shell and their desire to possess you, especially men, they do this often!! They feel that your beauty is something for them to own and they’re entitled to it as a men because society allows them to feel this way, the whole time you’re not being heard about your needs and wants, thinking this person is here for who you are and not what you looks like, like do they ever listen at all?? They’re too distracted and sometimes they’re needs over power yours because at the end of the day, it’s not about you or your desirability, it’s more about them and what they want and believe they can get from you, you sorta become a passenger in the backseat in this whole ordeal!!!
I feel like desirability is like Xibalba(Mayan underworld), as in it has layers of bad to worse Physical desirability being the worst, at the bottom, cause it's fleeting, ever-changing, objectifying and in reality never works out After a person casts off physical desirability, comes the next layer, financial or intellectual desirability. Being only a bit better, since these can actually give you something for your trouble, be rewarding, somewhat. But it's still shallow, looking at your contributions, or lack thereof. Even when we find people that mutually don't care about our physical appearance or abilities, our financial or intellectual achievements, we share genuine interests and care with, we're scared to fully show ourselves, what if they find something undesirable hiding behind the veil(our minds still poisoned by these expectations, burdened), and we feel guilty to that person for not trusting them to love us still, beat ourselves up. But in reality we've come so far, learned so much. But being fully at peace with who we are is probably one of the hardest things to do
I think the one thing I hate the most about being perceived by other people is this concept of desirability. When I was a kid, I was in a very white neighborhood, so I was basically invisible when I wasn't being used as an example of what not to be. The only times I was looked at were by men my father's age or older. So, desirability for me versus my peers felt like a threat. And I don't think I've divorced those feelings even at almost 27. I was conditioned with this feeling that obviously I'm undesirable, so if someone approaches me to tell me otherwise, it's to lure me into a bad situation. I don't know how to necessarily escape this pattern, but your video resonated with me. Maybe sharing this trapped feeling will help others know they aren't alone.
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Let's see... favorite scent? Burberry Brit Red. But they don't sell that anymore so I have found that I really love vanilla and lavender scent combos.
Just because you told me to comment on this lol: Yellow bone v red bone is basically just referring to their undertones. Some ppl have more of a yellowish undertone, others have more of a reddish-orange undertone.
Redbone skinned people can very much be as light skinned as yellowbones, however the difference is the undertone (red, more deep brown/yellow, more superficial brown).
TYPICAL:
Redbone skinned people tan very easily due to having more eumelanin (melanin more native to Africa people) and this tan, due to having more reactive melanin (eumelanin), can last much longer than yellowbone skinned people. Typically, redbones will tan to a copper color or the light - medium side of the medium brown spectrum, however, their natural color is an obvious light brown (ex: Will Smith's family or Rhianna and Beyonce). Yellowbones, who almost always, due to biological reasons, have at least a smidge (even if it's just one ancestor) of white ancestry because that lightness in a black person and being able to go in the sun without tanning a lot (and also losing a tan quickly) could only come from pheomelanin (melanin more native to Euopeans) or a very rare mutation.
SO BASICALLY:
redbones and yellowbones, both light skinned black people, however, redbones tan more easily, stronger, and longer (more eumelanin and commonly more African hertiage) whereas yellowbones tan less and shorter (more pheomelanin and EXTREMELY rarely don't have at least one white ancestor, whether the ancestor knew they were white/partially white or not.
ALSO:
if your confused about the types of melanin and the tans easily/stronger thing, it may help you to make the connection that white/pheomelanin rich people typically burn easily but have a hard time tanning, but eumelanin rich people/dark black people rarely burn but tan easily. Kind of a side tangent, but as a redbone person who didn't know sunscreen was important (reducing dark spots, DNA mutations, premature wrinkles, etc) and started wearing sunscreen after finding out, it was very annoying to hear some people close to me ask me if I bleached my skin even though hydroquinone is illegal in my country without a prescription and I rarely travel. I feel like a lot of light skinned people struggle with this type of stuff because yellowbones = skintone changes quickly depending on season | redbones = skintone change is drastic when not exposed to UVA/wearing sunscreen and/or upf
Some weird people out there saying redbones are annoying because they have naturally light brown skin but allow the sun to easily tan them...
What ICE did was waste our ears and attention
desirability is a double edged sword. Hypervisibility harms as much as it helps. desire and respect are not the same thing. Attention can be an expression of superficiality instead of interest.
That's the very reason I've actively avoided desirability, except in the presence of someone who has demonstrated they truly care for me.
@@kahlips0180 Same. I learned to avoid it however I can. No makeup, doing my hair, wearing cute clothes [or fitted or cropped], unless I'm at home alone or occasionally when I'm with either of my two trusted friends.
And for the record - for the TERs out there [I sometimes leave out the F cos they're not feminists] - in spite of my trauma, one of those friends is a trans woman, aka a woman. I've always been able to trust her & feel safe with her for the years we've known each other. Cos of course! I'm sick of the "insidious nb" TERs stuff.
@@kahlips0180 Yes, ma'am/sir.
I fucking love this comment
That part!
We always talk about women being jealous but never how MEN are deeply envious of women.
Yesss especially with the rise of men wanting to be treated like women. I wish she could do a deep dive into this idea
That’s actually a good point but how can man be envious of a woman
@@Justcanary8888 tbh, I believe the entire idea of slut shaming is based on male jealousy of how much easier it is for women to get laid then men...even though it's men's fault for generally having literally no standards and wanting to fuck any thing with a vagina 90%of the time.
This🤧🤧
@@Sacredmysticz envious of the fact a woman can get attention and privileges just from being pretty, while they have to work hard to even get half the praise a girl like Ice Spice gets for existing
i’m so glad you used ice spice as an example. i became a fan of her initially in part due to the fact that i saw the overwhelming hate that she was getting online that was largely from men and very sexual in nature. there was a time on twitter where you couldn’t search up her name without being inundated w a “leaked” sextape that allegedly was of her (it wasn’t). when ppl found out it was a fake, i saw several men complaining that they had gotten off to a fake vid , as if part of the reason they were aroused by it was because it was supposed to be this thing that was released without her consent. i also saw a viral tweet where some guy said he hoped ice spice’s career would flop so that she would have to resort to doing only fans. based on dominant beauty standards, ice spice is supposed to be the pinnacle of desirability esp within the black community, but because she is so sexualized she gets treated like an object that misogynistic men can direct their simultaneous attraction and hateful vitriol towards. as a darkskinned black girl i would never want to be in that sort of position even if it meant i was “desirable”. i’m glad that her core fanbase is mostly young women now who genuinely support her.
it really drives home that men like neither the Madonna nor the whore.
The only way one can salivate at the idea that a desirable woman having sex being career ending, is that they really want women to be subjected to desirability by others but not in control of it.
Be sexy, but don't have sex but if you do, it should be with me and if you dont then you're a slut and if you have sex with me then you're still slut.
Wear sexy clothing, but don't complain when someone gropes you without your consent and if you accuse someone of doing something inappropriate, then you're just a scorned lover whose trying to ruin some innocent man's life.
You should sell your talent rather than your looks but if you're not fuckable to other people, then you're career is going to flop.
How much yall wanna bet these same people would be the exact same way as ice spice is if they looked exactly like her? theres something thats got to be said about men's jealousy of desirable women and misogyny being their weapon of choice to punishment women for not possessing the same level of desirability as them for the same reasons
I like her, I’m a guy. I even made a couple remixes of her songs. 😊
“Ice Spice is the pinnacle of desirability”… umm yea for black and maybe Hispanic men who live in cities like NYC, Chicago and the south. Everywhere else, the standard is different. But I agree with everything else. She’s beautiful but she would not have made it if she didn’t appeal to colorist black producers
@@froyokidthe commenter mentioned that “esp in the black community” ice spice is considered desirable
@@froyokid youre comment is (mostly) correct, but it should go without saying that the prevailing beauty standards are colorist and can vary by region and that artists are marketed to appeal to specific audiences as you have exemplified. Imagine how discourse would flow if people gave disclaimers in every other sentence.
Women rappers who don't focus on their sexuality are a great example of the catch-22 here. Regardless of talent, they never reach the same level of success as those who lean into sexuality. People say that's what they want but we've got amazingly talented artists like Noname, Tierra Whack, Chika, etc and, well, the numbers don't lie.
Tierra Whack is lyrically on the same level as Meg imo opinion but she gets no love at all
The system, all the systems, are built to exploit women's bodies and sexuality. I'm sure y'all have noticed that social media apps will promote your thirst traps more than anything else you post. This planet is ghetto.
Seriously. Its insane. And Tierra Whack is so talented
She’s way more talented than Meg tho
Rapsody
Flip-flopping between being a fat black kid in a whitish neighbourhood, and then young thin fetishsized black man to back to being overweight pretty much messed up my self-esteem. I still get dissociative when I get compliments, my brain will be like "I don't know who they're talking about."
I also been on the other side of ostracization, to my ever increasing shame.
All that to say, let's validate each other, and help each other self-validate.
If you're reading that, you're beautiful, yes you, dont look pass your shoulder. And I mean it, 'caus I almost never use that word for people.
Thank you for this, I needed it ❤️
Thank you! You're very beautiful. Don't look over your shoulder either!
I don't have the same experience but I understand having trouble believing compliments and I'm still unpacking why. I hope your self-esteem recovers! Just being overweight doesn't automatically make you unhealthy, ugly, or anything else, regardless of what anyone says. There are skinny people who aren't healthy just because they're closer to the supposed ideal which is frequently warped by society's lens. It all varies by individual and fatphobia is often racist, classist, and sexist.
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Wanting to be desired because we're raised that way but also not wanting to be objectified is one of those super challenging things. If we got treated like actual people it'd be different but...
Bryony Claire 🤗🤗
So you’re saying you were taught to want to attract romantic partners? You wouldn’t have had any desire to appeal to those you find attractive?
We want to be desired because society links our physical appearance to our worth, it’s dehumanising to value humans based on their appearance either way.
biology
@@neptunianvibes yes. I think that's the point, we as a society are FORCED to submit to people and want them to like us. It's engrained from childhood, when we are in school for people to start liking us Or else we will get bullied. So we never actually sit down and realize that maybe life isn't about impressing others. Ofc some people learn it early in life, whereas some take a long time but almost everyone figures it out eventually before they die
While reading the book, it felt like Picola sought after disirability as a way to become safe and to secure her saftey. Throughout that book she's everything but safe and since she's socializied into thinking that she's also everything but beautiful, it makes sense that she wanted those blue eyes so bad. The line "her poverty makes us generous," really stook with me. It's like 'her suffering is nessecary for our success' and it'll always be Picola's fault
Very much that.
@@KhadijaMbowe ahh omg hii 💕💕💕
Toni Morrison once said that “white people have a serious problem because they have to make people be on their knees to feel tall” and this book highlights the fact that for there to be a DESIRABLE sector of society there had to be an UNDESIRABLE and since white people had the power to create these social structures they used black people to self validate
and that begs the question I've been asking over and over in different ways and in different environments:
Why is it necessary for society to designate someone to suffer in order for everyone else to thrive? It's because hierarchies are so deeply embedded in society. Someone always has to be put on the bottom and shit always flows downstream. Why is it necessary to fling shit on someone else in order for everyone else to feel cleansed? Why does society need someone to point to and say "there's the bad guy" (Tony Montana was right)? and why does it always have to be the ones who are already vulnerable?
@@elleofhearts8471 Yes AND baby! There can be no up without down, no good without bad, no sameness without otherness. It feels like you can trace the lines of supposed (not to say unreal) hierarchies, chasing these points of contrast to reinforce itself. It can say, "See right there? I am THAT. That is proof of my existence, license for my dictates."
We mistake ourselves for a pyramid when we are better off as a puzzle. Everyone has their own particular shape but we're all one, evolved perfectly to complement each other's uniqueness in the environment we are ... OH FUCK THE ENVIRONMENT'S ON FIRE
I also recommend the Viola Davis book "Finding Me" as she talks about growing up in extreme poverty as a dark skinned black girl and her career as an actress, she talks a lot about desirability as well and has so much to say on the topic. She is such as incredible woman...
She’s also an EGOT after her win for Best Spoken Album at the Grammys. Go Viola!
@@ultimatesportsmedicine4395If you can, listen to her audiobook. She narrated it and is compelling.
My daughter, who is mixed, told me the other day that when she went out ice skating, a group of boys jeered at her, calling her Ice Spice. I've been trying to figure out how that could have been an insult. Now I know. I'm going to share this video with her
I think u need to talk to ur mixed race daughter about what it is like to be mixed race and probably (?) have a racially ambiguous appearance, i don't know what ur daughter looks like of course 😅 But still that lesson is important.
It's not an insult, tell her that ice spice is a beautiful woman BUT that it shouldnt be your daughter's main goal to look pretty, she should strive to be intelligent, kind, hard working etc.
They thought she was feelin them
@@similoluwajunaid831 yes, I have. I am white, but I knew even when she was little that her Blackness needs to be seen as beautiful in here eyes, and I've worked to learn what I can about the Black experience, so that I can teach her.
Unfortunately, he father died of leukemia when she was six, and his side of the family doesn't really want to have a relationship with her, which breaks my heart.
@@gc.96 I know it's not, but teenage boys will teenage. That's what I meant by I couldn't figure out why they were using the comparison as an insult. Literally the first thing out my mouth after she said it was "I can see it" 😅
But, listening to Khadija talk about how Ice Spice is viewed by men made me think about it again
personally loved seeing ice spice's fanbase switch, im glad the girls are choosing to support her instead of attacking her for being attractive
@@francheska2113 you know we male fans are still fans of her.
When I was 17 I was riding the city bus to go home from school. I saw a beautiful girl riding the bus -I couldn't stop staring at her ( i wished I was as beautiful as her) until I realized every passenger was looking at her.The passengers consisted of mostly men and they looked at her inappropriately. It was the first time I witnessed the dangers of beauty and the first time I felt grateful that I wasn't.
Watch the movie Malena..perfect example of this
You couldn’t stop looking at the beautiful girl on the bus and that’s okay, but when most men are looking at her too it’s inherently inappropriate? That double standard confuses me. What makes a man staring inappropriate, but a woman staring appropriate? Are all these men drooling and licking their lips or something? Or are you stereotyping their intentions based on their gender?
@Johnsons97 @Johnsons97 I agree that both men and women should be able to stare and look, so long as they do not disturb the other person. The difference in this sceanario was that the men's stares were inappropriate in nature. The girl looked uncomfortable because the men were ogling her.
@@dotty555 ok yeah I agree, ogling is when it goes too far. Thanks for clarifying
Hyper-visibility is a horror when you’re perceived as vulnerable. Whether that be as a women, as a Black person, as a child. Predators prey on the vulnerable and the more visible you are, the more at risk you are. I gained weight and felt DEEP relief at being left alone.
This is a topic i’ve been dying for you to cover.
I’ve largely been considered good looking my whole life by everyone around me. And i find it extremely interesting how complicated my relationship has been with my desirability. I’m a muslim(ex muslim) neurodivergent woman. My looks have been used to put me into a box my whole life. People with much more privilege have come up to me my whole life and told me that things must come “easy” for me, despite being alienated from my peers early on in my life due to islamophobia and my neurodivergence. Yet, i know i hold a position of power over other women from my community because of this same desirability and the respectability politics i so heavily played into early on. I am asexual and currently confused about my gender identity and i feel like desirability is so tied in with femininity for afab folks that i’ve almost been choke hold into it forever. And you’re not allowed to talk about any of this in public without being called narcissistic.
Yet i feel happy when someone calls me pretty?
The last part is because we, as women, have been conditioned to think being pretty gives us value our whole lives. I mean, from TV shows to the popular girl in your school - pretty comes up a lot. Not to mention the billion dollar beauty industry that has their minds set on capitalizing off our insecurities. It'll take a lot of time for women to de-condition themselves from something they've grown up believing as children.
This is why it's good to read up on books and check yourself whenever you have thoughts that your desirability as a person only consists of your physical looks! I have such a problem with this too, but I keep in mind that I'm still young. We notice that pretty people have it easier in life... it's a hard pill to swallow. However, acceptance will one day release us hopefully from the shackles of desirability.
I relate to you a lot. I come from a conservative hindu family, am atheist and asexual. I was conventionally unattractive, ignored a lot by classmates and family alike, until lately, cuz I happened to have my so-called glow up. I don't think tho that I have experienced any perks of pretty priviledge, which btw dont get me wrong, I think very much exists. I just can never trust the same people who were mean to me before, be nice to me know. I have become extremely anti-social, have no friends, I deal with terrible body dysmorphia and find it really hard to become comfortable in my own skin, despite the 'glow up'. If only people were always nice to me no matter how 'desirable' I was...
And so sorry you had to face islamophobia...I also hope you come to terms with your sexual identity!
Same boat. I'm also an ex-muslim neurodivergent woman & demisexual, but in my case I was an "ugly duckling" that had a glow-up in my teens (traded my thick coke-bottle glasses for contacts, got my thick kinky curls relaxed & straightened, bought myself a new wardrobe & makeup set). I was still bullied bc the popular girls that saw me pre-transformation made sure to humiliate me by sharing my "undesirable" version of myself. I wasn't allowed to enjoy pretty privilege, until I moved away and went to college. Since it was considered inappropriate to be around boys, including my own brothers & cousins, I never learned about boundaries when coming into contact with them.
Touching and kissing was also something that wasn't doled out and so we grew up in a household where hugging or verbal affection was lacking. So it took me a long time to realize I was ace bc my curiosity about boys and hunger for affection were also further confused by my heteronormative social conditioning. It wasn't until I started having relationships that I had to wrestle with why I was so conflicted. I had to learn how to separate my need for physical intimacy from the inculcated need for sexual intimacy. I also needed to unlearn the need for validation/acceptance and emotional support, from the need for attention and to be desirable.
This kind of confusion is amplified when the male gaze dictates who wins in our current attention economy, where the currency of likes and compliments about our looks affords us the clout, that helps us traverse the social ladder (which most minorities are prevented from climbing). I feel like bc whiteness is considered the highest point of political power and blackness is considered the highest point of social power (due to the rebellious & "cool" associations with urban culture), those of us who sit in between (bi-racial and brown minorities) have definitely used our intermediary position of racial ambiguity to our advantage - not bc intentionally trying to misrepresent ourselves, but bc respectability politics is our only means for survival in a male-dominated & melanin-averse world.
Wow, I relate so much to your experience. Not Muslim, so I can’t relate to that, but everything else! It’s a struggle to let go of the urge to be desirable, especially when that’s all you’ve heard about yourself growing up. Add onto that being asexual and question gender… yeah it’s a mindfuck.
ice spice actually said in an interview something along the lines of that her favorite compliment is when people compliment her on her personality and nothing to do with her looks, I think she also emphasized when people call her kind ... food for thought
Unfortunately a lot of Black women have this experience of being treated as subhuman and then suddenly hypervisible and desirably, leading us to accept mistreatment since we are "lucky" to even be desired. I so appreciate you talking about this topic, it's helped me come to terms with and heal from abuse more than you know!
As someone who has never really been desired or seen as pretty, I have always thought really messed up things. I remember being around other girls who would always talk about how much they hated being cat called or objectified etc etc, and I would stand there thinking that I would love to experience those things just so I could feel like I was desired by someone, anyone. When I would hear how women would get cat called even while looking “ugly or terrible” I would just think “well just how ugly do I have to be to have never experienced that, even when I think I look my best, when all the women around me have.” I know it’s messed up but I can’t help these feelings.
So relatable but we gotta keep our heads up!
Can relate 😢
Nah ur feelings are valid but be happy to never go thru that. Cat calling is disgusting and I can't stand it. Rape vibes honestly
Oh my dear friend, oh my dear dear friend. You are someone who hasn't learned just how much women lie. They're not getting cat called. Ask them to record it. They're making this shit up so they seem popular and desirable
And by the way If you're genuinely unsure of how attractive or unattractive you are, and you're not getting very much male attention, chances are you are even uglier than you could imagine in your worst fantasy. People. See you from every angle. They see you from the back from the side. When you look in the mirror, you almost always only look at yourself from the front. You don't turn your head three quarters one way one. Third, another way you don't look at yourself from the top where there might be a balding patch. You don't look at yourself from the bottom or from any other angle other than directly into the mirror. You don't watch yourself in the mirror, speaking or open your mouth or drinking or burping. Those are all significantly uglier facial expressions. I assure you. And you also don't see your body moving and jiggling and bending and standing. And if you are like most women, you believed that the weight you have is completely normal and that you're just a little bit on the plumper side, when in reality you are probably obese and so fat that when a guy sees you in the distance or anyone sees him in the distance, you think they notice your face. Nope. They're not even looking at your face honey
I was always a fat girl, and I've been blessed with a "either disinterested or kinda baked" resting face, so I grew up basically only being called pretty by my mom. At that one point in childhood where you become aware that the world is crap and you are vulnerable out there because predators exist, I started feeling grateful for my face and my weight. I thought they made me undesirable (after all, mom called me "pretty despite being too fat") and that meant that no one would even want to take advantage of me.
Of course, I was WRONG and the internet made sure to make that clear (nothing major, just creepy men trying to get free feet pics) but realizing that I was wrong kinda broke me for a while. The helplessness set in that there was NOTHING that could truly prevent me from being a target.
I still play into it from time to time. I underdress when I'm going out alone at night for like, getting something at the convenience store real quick, and I overdress when I wanna look at myself in the mirror and be reminded that I have control over my own appearance, that I can be pretty WHEN I want. I like to treat it like a switch that I can turn on or off. My SO is the only person that treats me as beautiful no matter where the switch is, and that's perfect for me, he should be the only one to do that.
But the feeling of "if you're too much, too pretty, too exposed, someone will see it as an invitation and you'll need to defend yourself alone" never goes away.
I can relate. The watershed moment for me was when I found out that people can can and do sexualize literally anything.
it desnt matter how you adorn yourself (essp. because gender is a performance). People will find some way to sexualize you against your consent and blame you for it.. because desirability is something you possess, not something you control. Its something you're subjected to by just as much as you can subject others to it.
All of this! And I’ve felt the same about only really wanting to be desired by my partner. It is what is if strangers find me attractive but I hate the feeling of being desired or listed over in a way that teeters on the line of preyed on. It completely feels predatory. It’s much different than someone bein interested initially bc of your looks, style, how you carry yourself - that to me is more like being interested in a book bc of its cover and wanting to read the intro.
So relatable
This makes me think of comments that come from the most self unaware people who themselves are physically undesirable on every level (for example Donald Trump) are the same pieces of shit saying that women who they’ve assaulted in the past and who are coming forward with allegations now are “not pretty enough to r*pe” or “too fat to r*pe.” Rush Limbaugh said shit like this too despite being literally jabba the hut himself.
I relate to your assault story so much. When I was 18 I was raped but I had a hard time calling it that because I walked into the situation. I come from a majority white school, jr high and high school I was never seen as desirable. I went through many issues like mental health, body dysmorphia, and bulimia/anorexia. Before going to college I met this black guy who was desirable. And I was very shocked bc usually a guy like him would go for a white girl or a Hispanic, anyways he would called me beautiful which in return made me tear down my walls because I wasn’t use to being called that. I then got in a situation where I was alone with him and he wanted sex from me. I said no and he continued, I was so scared but felt like I walked into the situation so might as well let him have it. That experience taught me a lot about self worth and showed me ways to value myself.
I'm so sorry that happened to you 😔 much love ❤️ 💖
This confession hurts so much. I am so sorry that happened to you. I wish you well wishes!!
Really?
I had something similar happen. I felt like my safety would be threatened if I didn't comply. When I confessed what happened to my best friend, she said "Why didn't you resist?". I said "He's from the Crips and said he'll cut my face!" and she responded "So? I'd rather have a disfigured face than to be molested!". I was shocked, I didn't realize that was an option. It never occurred to me that physical pain was preferable over trauma, until I was older. We're Palestinian, so while her family has always emphasized the importance of self-defense, I was socialized (like most girls) to be sweet, nice, quiet, and accommodating. My mom was a doormat, so I pretty much didn't learn how to stick up for myself.
I remember we moved overseas, where I really grew to understand the strength of my people. Two soldiers held college students at gun point and forced them to kiss. We discussed it in school, arguing about self-preservation vs justice & honorability. One of the hijabis in my class said she'd rather be shot than ever let a soldier harass her into compromising her dignity & religious piety. She said if one of us lets them get away with it, then it sets a precedent to allow them to harass us all. Now some good debaters pointed out that it's not the victim's responsibility to set/avoid precedents and that these soldiers don't need precedents to behave unethically.
But many girls in class agreed that they'd take a bullet than be antagonized into it. I was ashamed, bc my instinct would've been to kiss the guy in order to protect his life and my own. I've always felt ashamed for not having a backbone or the inner strength to stand up to abusers. So being back in the US, I live single & isolated away from people. I stay unattached, bc I'm on the spectrum & don't trust myself to have healthy relationships. I'm always getting taken advantage of, by everyone around me. Family, friends, lovers, etc. It's just me and my cats for now.
Stay away from Tyrones!!!
I’ve recently moved from desirability to non desirability. I was a stripper my whole adult life, my looks were my bread and butter. A little over a year ago I had to get a major surgery on my back, I now have to work in quality control in a big manufacturing facility so I can sit down at a desk. I’ve also gone through spiritual changes that lead me to not want to pursue SW in other ways, although I physically could. I no longer am in a position to have anything a man would want, as I no longer “advertise” my desirability. I don’t wear makeup, I don’t dress seductively, I’m no longer manipulating men to get what I want. It’s been a huge eye opener to no longer be “needed” by men after I no longer will provide “services” to them. I’ve been cast aside, all those regulars who gave me money gradually stopped following me when months went by with no ass shots or thirst traps. Desirability isn’t always just about your looks, I look the same. It’s about what you do with your looks, how you advertise your desirability.
This is a very insightful post; esp the last sentence.
Love this! Your journey is very reflective of my own
@@rejectionisprotection4448 thank you. Still on the journey, and you know what? I e found companionship with men who truly care about me as a person. Desirability is a trap I’m realizing. You get attention but no actual love, no care, no nurturing.
As a teenager, I was considered and treated as ugly. Boys made fun of me, my peers felt embarrassed to be seen with me and my parents and relatives judged me. Although I’m still not “desirable” (by men), I’m considered “attractive” now, yet when people compliment my appearance, it just feels shallow to me. I know that it’s meant to be positive but I don’t feel flattered by essentially fitting into the beauty standard. Maybe because I know what being “ugly” is that I just find praising a person’s physical appearance to be conditional and superficial, even if it’s not by intent.
your comment about the moving target of desirability i also feel as a trans person. there is no amount of cisnormative enough you can be to satisfy people who are determined to invalidate you. i tried to play that game, and watched many in my community try to play that game, and there's no winning. i've learned it's just not worth it to try and conform to satisfy what others want from your body and identity when instead i can just try and transition to the extent that i want (...and to the extent that cisnormativity is also a necessary safety measure in a violently anti-trans society).
you come out, and they say they want you to look like X before they'll call you X. you change your appearance, and they say they won't call you X until you're legally X. you take HRT, you change your legal name and legal gender, and they say you aren't really X until you've had surgery to be X. you get gender-affirming surgery, and they say you will never be X because you don't have the right sex chromosomes. you can't win when you play by their rules.
i even get this from "allies" who support trans people only so long as those trans people are conventionally binary and cisnormative. the minute you cut your hair wrong or offend them, suddenly you aren't trans enough for them.
I appreciate this comment. You truly helped me understand so much.
Great comment, and I wholeheartedly agree; there's never winning with people who are committed to misunderstanding you. You fix something about yourself, they'll always find something else to criticize. Also insecurities & goals in general work like that. Once you're happy with something, you'll find something new to hyperfixate on.
I think many, especially queer people go through this transition, from struggling to fit in, to conform, to letting go, silencing the critics (inside & outside) and just embracing their true self.
I empathize with you and I support you. I hope all the rest of your days get exponentially better.
That immediate *knowing* that your pain is second nature and simply does not matter in this world, as a dark skinned black girl, is painfully familiar. I'm glad you included your experience later on. I haven't read The Bluest Eye yet because it takes a lot for me to work up the strength to read Ms. Morrison's brilliant work, and the familiarity of it all may hit harder than I ever realized. That little girl wanting to be beautiful so much she imagines herself so, never realizing (or never being encouraged to realize) she was always beautiful is very real. And in the end, like you said, what does it look like when you ARE granted access into beauty and desirability? You are often picked apart and prodded like a specimen in a lab, still not fully human, yet somehow propped up as "correct". It's endless.
This was another great video 🖤
When I was ten years old my father thought to tell me how his friends said I was gaining weight, and in the tone he told me this, it was clearly meant to shame me--like, people are noticing, and it was time to get my act together. I was going through puberty. At the time, I was still a healthy weight, but it was clear the skinny body the adults were accustomed to would not continue naturally, I would have to intervene with diet and exercise in order to remain thin. When I think about this now I feel this sense of disgust. Who sits around and discusses the body of a child? I feel anger, like why would you say something so damaging to a little girl?
Some of my favourite darkskin musicians because the music industry just loves that paper bag:
- Ari Lennox
- Hamzaa
- Soraia Ramos
- Sampa The Great
- Mentissa
- Rachel Chinouriri
- Lous and the Yakuza
- Enny
- PONGO
- Tank and the Bangas
- IZA
- Sunny War
- Nozi Sibiya
- Rutshelle Guillaume
- Arlo Parks
- Yseult
- Gyakie
- Nnavy
- Cat Burns
- Doechii
- Ray Blk
- Yani Mo
- Samara Joy
- Yola
*feel free to comment more
oo such a good list! On the top of my head I can think of kelela, leikeli47, bree runway, & junglepussy!
I'll definitely be checking them out!
A few more I know: Noname, Tierra Whack, Tanerélle, Little Simz, Rapsody
Just saw someone already said Kelela🥰I'll add Doechii
@@fae3821 ugh she's so good. I recommend her to everyone
RACHEL CHINOURIRI
I think the chase for desirability and/or beauty has to do with women who are seen as undesirable are literally treated as sub human in each end every way. It might be a trap, but we all want to feel desired and wanted and treated as human. The way you frame it as being an actual trap because you are chasing something that isn't there to begin with and then become an object (not agent) of desire is so interesting and enlightening.
Thank you very much for this video, and for sharing bits of you in the process. No one should ever have to go through what you went through, and I wish you much happiness ❤
So you don’t think it has anything to do with the fact they want romance from those they find desirable?
@@neptunianvibes it does but that’s not all of it
@@neptunianvibes well the question there is: Who do you find desirable? Conventionally attractive people who are "out of your league?" I wont pretend i dont find plenty of conventionally attractive people pretty, but if you only find yourself chasing people because they are conventionally attractive, so much so that you try to be more desirable to be with them, perhaps it's time to look inward and assess why we have these preferences. Personally, as soon as I started asking myself why my standards for who's "desirable" are so narrow, not only did I begin to find all sorts of people pretty, but I found myself prettier as well.
We are not safe either way. It’s objectifying both ways. Either we are too ugly to be considered human essentially shrinking us to only an object or being so desired that we are objectified by being over sexualized.
@@divaglam92 exactly. It's like there is no escape to it tbh
As a fat person and someone who experienced sexual abuse as a child, I so related to this video. I was called fat and had aunties make comment about my body and make “who would want to marry you” comments since my preteen years. The painful thing is, I actually went back and watched some of those old home videos. I wasn’t actually that big. I was a bit taller and bigger than my petite and skinny cousins but I wasn’t fat.
I still struggle with wanting to be desirable and not wanting to attract negative attention to my fat body at the same time. Thanks for making this video
I never had that type of comments because I was protected by my parents, mostly my father who was very authoritarian and his own family was literally scared of him....but I did get the sneaky "little plump", "fat" one and I was like you, just a healthy and a well fed child, I wasn't fat.
Few decades later I was looking at my pictures when I was a child and I was crying by this realisation, that I wasn't "fat" or "ugly", people were just jealous, there I said it. And if that's you on your picture, well, you're stunning and I'm sure you were an extremely beautiful child, that's why some bad folks will be ready to ruin your confidence because they were scared actually, scared by your beauty and how their kids won't be noticed if they're standing next to you.
You'll get bad attention as well as good attention, you can't prevent yourself from shining only to prevent "bad" attention , that's unfair to yourself and you owe yourself the right place and the right value for YOU. So what's needed? Boundaries, people with bad attention can be shut off easily if you stand firm and don't allow bullshit, as simple as that. That's what I had to learn, I figured that the issue isn't really my weight (now I have a "normal" weight BMI wise), it was my need to be seen as a "good girl", people respect those who say "no", those who have boundaries and they know that they have your respect and attention when you let them be close to you and have your attention. If you have that same issue, try to be that "bitch" for these bad people, your life will be much much better and you'll be fabulous. God bless you.
I figured out decades ago that as a woman, the most powerful currency I could have was my looks and attractiveness at a societal level. It sucks, but I didn't wanna be on food stamps like my mom, so I accepted the rules and started playing the game. Long story short, I generally have the life I was aiming for way back then.
I personally, primarily view and use it as a means to reach my goals. In combination with my education, intelligence, and other skills.
I think this is a healthy way to deal with it on your own. I feel part of escaping the trap is recognizing it but purposefully building something outside of it on the inside. Having a deeper inner world to cushion never having desirability or the loss of it in aging or losing it to an accident/health problem. I think if you are not preparing for that you will suffer an identity loss. Similar to the concept in developmental psychology called role loss that can happen and cause depression. If you have built up other things in yourself you can fall back on (not just financially since that can collapse outside of your control too) it will be a softer landing emotionally and internally.
Yeah, you gotta play with cards you have.
honestly, more power to you. You didn't start this game, you didn't make the rules, but we all have to play the game whether we want to or not. It makes sense to me to reduce as much harm as you can for as long as possible. No one is going to leave the game unscathed so the best you can do is to try to control how much damage you take and what gets damaged.
Sending love 💞
What career do u reccomend?
@@catcat9582 I don't recommend any specific career. I'd suggest researching career paths that fit your personality type and how you like to interact (or not) with people, choose the most lucrative position in that path, and get the education/training/experience/connections to get that particular career.
Getting older and being less 'pretty' as a femme has been interesting. I remember men old enough to be my father hitting on me when I was still a teenager, and yet I look back at pictures of myself back then and I looked very awkward and 'incomplete' (if that makes sense..?) I hadn't quite figured out how to put myself together in a way that made me feel completely comfortable in my own skin. But I think maybe it was the surface-level 'pretty' and vulnerability of youth that made me 'desirable'. Now that I am older, I feel far more confident and beautiful than I ever did at 17, but am basically invisible to cis men (thank goodness). Within a cis/heteropatriarchy prettiness seems to be something that is desireable in the same way that a sports car - a woman that can wield prettiness, and man that can access it has gained a key social commodity.
Me and my friend have spoken about this - how the older we get men don’t hit on us like when we were kids which is disturbing and really puts things into perspective.
This.👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
@ddxddff ccfff I didn’t have my first real relationship til I was 22 there’s still time my friend ❤️
As a person who was sexually objectified way before I should have been, as a child. IDGAF about desirability, I'm a young woman still suffering on how to express/view myself because so many people would attach their perspectives onto me & would strip me of my personhood to entertain the possibility of possessing me. While simultaneously being judged for being unambiguously black but light enough to be fuckable. They want you as arm candy and a secret side piece. I'm gorgeous enough to ruin relationships you want bc you want to taste me but not to make a life partner apparently 🙃 despite my personality being loving n sweet by nature. To sum it up, they don't look further than my shell & the femininity I possess on the outside. It's annoying asf.
the solution is simple sis, ignore them, because dick and words are the cheapest thing a man could do for you. does their action show they love you for you, do they pay attention to the small things you like, importantly do they go out of their way for you. more times than often if you picked a hobby you were passionate about you'd meet similar like minded people, they'd like you more for than just looks because you guys have similar interest.
@@vibez.no.cartel it's not that simple. Ignoring some men will make them think they have the right to take what they want from you and be violent. It happens all the time.
@@mammajamma4397 remove yourself from the area, call out for service help : waiters, bouncers, security etc. Cos these morons aren't going to disappear we can only teach our children how to behave, and take action to safe guard ourselves..
Relatable
Love your commentary. This definitely made me reflect on my younger years as an “undesirable” or a “pretty for a dark skin girl” days and it sucked because you can see who is desired and the ones who may have liked you just didn’t say anything…. Whew
This is it! Dating American men in their 20s is something I’ll never do again, because so many of them struggled with their attraction to me. As if to say, “well I didn’t really expect you to be my equal, and a compelling woman overall.” 😂
P Valley is one of the most brilliantly written, brilliantly acted shows I have ever seen. There has to be another season!!!!!
Where can I watch it? I’d love to see it
it’s been picked up for S3 thank goodness
@@whosthatchick5150 it’s on STARZ
STARZ
@@desladiablesse omfg you just made my year!!!
Part 3 really got me because I've seen that trajectory for too many women and girls in my personal life. Those that grew up feeling outside of the sphere of desirability and the resulting vulnerability to certain types of manipulation and treatment.
I had this dark-skinned friend growing up and she was truly so beautiful but she was plagued with doubt and self-hatred. When we got to our late teens and the pressure to be desirable in the right way became ever greater, she really leaned into twisting herself into this traditional ideal of femininity - almost trying to be like a housewife barbie doll type even though it had never really been her. After a while she met this guy and we drifted apart when I told her that he was less than mediocre and she deserved better. At some point he started abusing and cheating on her. When we eventually started talking again it seemed like what was keeping her staying was this feeling like she felt she was worth more because she’d been chosen -specifically by a white guy - and that had somehow validated her value as a woman, her performance of femininity.
Having more understanding of these things now, I believe that she’d got caught up in this game we’re made to play across the hierarchy of white supremacy. It locks certain people out but still promises that although they may never be able to get to the top, they’ll be treated better or get more if they can exert themselves to climb as high as they can towards that ideal. It’s the curse of living under a standard that posits the white gaze as the ultimate - the one to perform for and appease. And I feel like people like my friend’s boyfriend understand that (be it consciously or not) and they seek out girls they can treat however because those girls won’t believe they deserve better. They’ll tolerate whatever because they’re told they’re lucky to be associated with the kind of someone that can ‘validate’ their desirability in a way that matters - according to societal norms.
That white gaze is heavy... it's like worrying less about whether you can be attractive to yourself in a way that best complements the person you are & more about trying to be attractive to the people that have the most social currency and worth under white supremacist patriarchy. Like their approval means more, holds more weight and therefore solidifies your worth more than if that approval came from yourself or those around you, even the ones that actually care about your well-being & true self expression.
Agreed.
Continuing to tell our own stories the way we want to, will forever be paramount.
Your content and perspective is so important, being a POC and oppressed for your gender, race, color, nuero-divergence, class is so difficult for many reasons, but we typically have no voice in our western-white capitalist society. Particularly we need to have a perspective from someone with an academic and culturally literate point of view. SO basically thanks for doing what you do!
Like beauty, desirability is in the eye of the beholder. Some people desire name brand makeup, others hate makeup altogether. Some people desire vast wealth, other people are anti-materislist.
It's amazing how many things in life that are deemed desirable and important in society are actually the most trivial and useless things to exist.
I want to write a film about my experience growing up in a wealthy white suburb in the american south as the only dark skinned black girl but i can never quite put my finger in the main theme of what im writing about, now i understand the story im trying to tell is one of my relationship to my own desirability in my youth as a result of being so othered in a mostly white community. thank you so much for this video.
I would love to watch this film and others like it
i would watch the hell out of this, whenever you get around to making it, let us know so we can support you
I would LOVE to watch something like this! But knowing Hollywood, they might end up putting a mixed person in the role instead 😒
I had a semi-related childhood. I went to a white, wealthy private school as a poor Black kid. They hazed me my first year there. I othered myself from that point on. I was there from 5th grade to 12th, and just observed them as I got my education. Those 8 years shaped my perspective on wealth, whiteness, and the lie that is America.
This would make for a great book
Desirability is to me maybe the worst thing in existence. Because damned if you do, damned if you don't and there is always the idea of competition. And even if you choose not to play, that also doesn't save you. Because you can't tap out. You can't hide. We are social creatures and even if we painstakingly pick and choose the people who don't go the desirability is your only value route, we still exist within the bigger system that will punish you given the chance.
Thanks. I hate it.
The video is fantastic. Thank you for making and sharing it. ❤️
I had a strange perspective on beauty standards between white and black women. I observed that tanning is an obligation for white people, so as a child I made the assumption that dark skin is desirable and white/pink skin is not. And then the Internet blows up and I realise that tan and black skin is not always a desirable trait. It was weird to know that some people with dark skin made an effort to have lighter skin while I'm thinking they won the melanin jackpot.
People really just want to look different and even "exotic" nothing can be done about that unfortunately...biggest example is the Kardashian-Jenner clan.
Your conclusion at the end where you kinda just want to curl in on yourself and go 'I hope people just find someone who thinks they're hot and also cares about them beyond the shell' is where I always end up. It truly is a damned if you do and damned if you don't and it's so difficult to figure out what to do with that. I will also say that having a parent that, while they never say a denigrating word to you about your looks, has to deal their own slippery struggle with desirability and they say harsh words to themselves. A kid can definitely go 'but I look like you?' And gah, it feels like putting so much pressure on the parent (especially if they've already made sure to not degrade their child's or other people's looks) to have already worked through this impossiblecatch-22 internally. Just fgdhjfd anyway, this topic is difficult.
And lmao I have never figured out the difference between redbone and yellowbone either jgdffbhdb I used to think it was an undertone thing, but was told 'nah' but they then proceeded to not tell me what the difference was then lmao. Thanks for the video!
I love this comment, I agree and relate to this absolutely 💯
I thought it was an undertone thing too lol. It’s news to be if it’s not, I’m not sure what it means otherwise.
@@shamidkpzd lmao right? Like what else could it possibly be? They had no answers for me lol.
Zora's Daughters podcast had an episode where they talked about this. A redbones undertone (supposedly) indicates Indigenous blood, whereas a yellowbone's undertone (supposedly) indicates having European ancestry. I say supposedly because African Americans have such mixed ancestry at this point that who's to say which is standing out more.
Thank you for this video.
So many times I’ve heard women who are conventionally attractive/desirable say things like “Looking like this is a curse, women who don’t look like me are the lucky ones because they don’t get abused and harassed”. And like you say that is just not true.
I can relate to Keyshawn's experience of feeling undesirable growing up, as a dark-skinned girl in the suburban South. Then, growing up and realizing that you're pretty. It's a weird vibe, especially when people feel entitled to invade your space and touch you. At first I didn't understand it, but now I do. People don't know how to behave and feel entitled to invade a woman's space
yeah mostly men. men don't know how the fck to behave.
The way that "clouds" attacked me. I nearly stopped breathing. Having "black" features as a child was not attractive and getting bullied for what people pay for now is mind boggling. The salt I felt growing up just for being me... I felt seen today. Thank you
I love Toni Morrison and I adore the bluest eye. She writes so beautifully about such a complex and universal topic like it’s so visceral. I thought it significant the emphasis put on eyes, it reminded me of Sartre’s idea of the gaze and the consequences of being gazed upon by the ‘other’ When I heard that little passage I was like hold up?? Now I gotta re read it
23:05 Reminds me of acid attacks against women. To “take away” their desirability so if the man was rejected by a woman, he’d still “have her” because “no one else would want her.” Just awful
[TRIGGER WARNING] This is a fragment of the way I used to feel in my childhood. This is a personal experience and I am not comparing to anyone else).
I was the only colored person in one of the sides of my family. When I was 5, I was already fully aware that My features of “bad hair”, “big nose”, “skin color of p**p” as I grew up hearing were the reason that I was not born to be loved. I was born to be left behind, to be made fun of, to be used, to serve and be a helper to the people with desirable features. I had a sense that I needed to be always the support character if I wanted to be accepted. I used to imagine myself being born white, blue eyes, with the hair of a Disney Princess, so I would deserve to be loved. All the cruelty and abandonment happened because of me. What a sad thing for a kiddo to think.
Growing up, I was not only groomed but was also sought out by men much older than me since I was 14 years old. I was always told how pretty I am. Since I've come out as non binary, cut my hair short, and gained 20lbs, I have had less problems with the whole desirability aspect from everyone. And yet, I keep wanting to put in hair extensions, loose weight, play with makeup, because cosplaying as hyperfeminine is at times, the only time I feel attractive. Just some silly thoughts I wanted to share. Thank you for creating a platform where I can feel safe to share these thoughts :)
I can relate greatly to this
This is a fascinating comment! I don't understand enough about non-binary gender expression to ask questions in the right way, but there's so much more I'd love to know about your story.
This relates to me. I was classified as a lolita where because I was more developed I had older men always trying to get with me. There was even a kidnapping attempt (my mum had a security guard with me) and I think that subconsciously made me gain weight to detour these advances. Then hs was a blast of divine femininity where all my friends were Into boys and makeup and weight loss and everyone was going on day. It's except for me and being dark skinned and predominantly white schooling system ended up putting on more pressures. I know that if I didn't have a supportive family whose members also experienced this, I wouldn't be here today. Nonbinary, yet still dealing with internal misogyny, colorism, and self-worth. Focusing on my education helped bc I learned to be more than just an object of desire and became a weapon of knowledge and power.
“Who’s gonna believe me because who would really want me” that statement hit me on another level. Instant tears
Great video. I’m 26 and still unpacking my relationship to desirability. I used to get teased for being chubby and my friends would constantly touch me without my consent. As a adult I’m fully understanding how colorism and fatphobia makes it hard for me to want to date.
If you don’t mind, could you elaborate on how this effected you in dating because I think I may have the same issue. I don’t know what it is but something just feels off when it comes to dating as someone who is dark skin and was considered fat.
"The Bluest Eye" is my favorite book. I found myself crying throughout the book. The ending really hurt so much.
R.I.P Toni Morrison ♥️ she was a true gem
Desirability will always depend in part from beauty standard which I learned the hard way, I will never be able to fit into.
Like you say, its a moving target that changes from place, time and many other factors. Growing up chubby and still dealing with weight issues today, I realized that I'm not visually desirable to many people and that is okay precisely because its temporary and It has nothing to do with me. But the inner beauty thou, that one never goes away and is as valuable or even more valueable than the outside beauty.
Growing older you learn that beauty is subjective and that you wont be everyone cup of tea, and that being desirable for your looks is okay but is not everything, because we are more than the biodegradable shell we are contained in.
This was a good breakdown of desirability. After being undesirable and suddenly desirable myself, over these past few years, I'm finally understanding that it's important to love what's inside of you bcus that is what lasts a lifetime.
Overall great video! Sorry I have to get on my soapbox about a line towards the end. When people say things like they “love to be objectified… depending on who it is,” that isn’t objectification. You are talking about consenting to someone ogling you, and maybe more; this makes you a willing participant in the activity and have agency to set boundaries. Objectification turns people into objects, and not in the grammatical subject verb object sense, in the inanimate thing sense. Such objects lack will and agency. Therefore if someone clearly and actively consents, it’s not objectification. Using the term to describe consensual s3xual activities amongst adults only muddies the waters. Please stop using “objectification” like this, especially when reaching a larger general audience.
I disagree that if "someone clearly and actively consents" to something then that is not objectification. Take for instance the video for WAP. Megan and Cardi are sexually objectifying themselves, but they are the ones who created the video and consented to being presented in an objectified way.
And in terms of sex between two or more people, some people genuinely like being treated as objects or playthings. That is objectification, but it is also consensual.
@@gabbym333 no, that’s misusing the term “objectification”. That’s pretend play, and the people involved do not give up their agency or ability to withdraw consent. In WAP, Cardi and Megan hold the power; they aren’t the objects. Objectification strips people of their power and ability to withdraw consent.
Let’s look at another scenario to demonstrate the point. Sometimes children will pretend to be a dog and the family will play along. Would you use the same word for that game when parents treat their child like a literal dog, do things like lock the child in a kennel while they leave the house for a few hours? Or can you see how those are different and require different language?
love this comment, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Thank you for pointing this out. This is something i have noticed a lot of cis straight Asian guys, cis straight SWANA guys, white AMAB enbies, fat cis white gals, and nerdy/geeky cis straight guys say a lot and it is so annoying because a lot of them also ignored how dangerous objectification is to WOC and queer POC.
@ally how would you reason through self-objectification using the rationale you’ve laid out?
This is a great video, i remember losing wait (tell i gained it back) that alone had folks treating me so differently. I think that was the only time folks treated me human. Society, men and women alike show how foul they are when your seen as unattractive and undesirable.
They really do, I’m sorry for that 💕
@Khadija Mbowe it is what it is. I've learned alot from it. And i dont know if i would of valued people for who they are if it wasn't for that, i may of been as vain as society. Maybe not, but i kno, i value people for who they are, not what they look like or what they can give me. It was a trip to lose wait and watch ppl you know switch up though.
@@OverthrowMedia same thing happened to me. Lost the weight (for health reasons) and people showed how ugly they are inside. And lost some friends because I was only supposed to be the ugly fat friend. Apparently I was always the steping ground for people to feel better about themselves. I never called them ugly or tore them down or fed an insecurity but man did I not receive the same treatment back. Everybody has different traits that are beautiful. I just wish they saw that.
@MewMewSun ya it was different for me when i lost weight all the sudden women who literally wouldn't even speak to me plutonicly where trying to sleep with me. Home boys that where koo but at a distance all the sudden wanted to be besties, open opportunities for me ect. Full switch up, same with the people who didnt like me. All the sudden they where friendly. Just example after example of that shit which left again when i gained wait back.
Desirability is OK if you want to sell something. Not OK if you want meaningful relationships.
Is it okay to commfodify one's body/looks? I don't know. It can help empower some, but it can also reduce someone's entire worth to just their looks.
@holachica97 First of all, it really doesn't make sense not to use what you have to move through the world. It's one thing to commodify someone else's looks for your own gain, and it's quite another to commodify your own. Second, desirability IS commodification, anyway. Sexual desire is connected to power, and power to safety. I've always said that we're attracted to who we want to be, and we attract who we actually are but don't want to admit to ourselves. Desirability, like business, is ASPIRATIONAL in nature. If we're not attracted to someone because we feel they can give us power we cannot give ourselves, then we're attracted to whoever we think will project the power we seek.
You can be attractive and have a healthy relationship too. lol Why put limit? One just has to be more aware of the ppl they interact with. Set boundaries and limit who gets access to you no matter how you look. The ones who are worth your time, energy, and love will be made clear, and the others will reveal themselves one way or another.
You can be desirable and have meaningful relationships.
@@FabalociousDee Do you also think it doesn't make sense not to use what you have to move through the world if someone is a rich white cis male, or someone who works for a corporation that manipulates people or destroys the environment? Just checking
Oh, that abuse by desirability hits me hard in the feelings. When I was like five, I watched people treat pretty women like they were stupid, and I remember looking at myself in the mirror and deciding I would never be pretty because I wanted to be taken seriously. The first guy to tell me I was beautiful turned out to be an abusive ass, and used my conflicted reactions to that as part of his leverage.
I really appreciate this video. Thank you for getting into the nuance of desirability. It always seemed so you know desirable as a dark skinned black girl raised in a predominantly white area. I was surrounded by white women who always had a date or someone like them. I internalized that so fast that when I was in 3rd grade I remember telling my best friend at the time who was biracial and light that I was “too dark to be pretty.” I drew myself as white in photos and by the time I left elementary school I internalized the idea that people were attracted to other white people because they resembled their own family not because they were racist. I had to come up with excuses for why I was lacking to explain why I wasn’t desired. I recently did a whole lot of internal work on dismantling my jealousy and resentment towards the societally attractive white women I was around. When they would get into toxic relationships it would be hard for me to empathize because I was like why don’t you date someone nice. Everyone likes you it can’t be that hard. But the problem is. It is. My friend who were desirable in high school were either in abuse relationships or were dating men in their 20s. They were groomed, taken advantage of, and lied to. All because they were children with pretty faces. They were victims in their own way and are dealing with their own trauma just like I’m dealing with mine. I still ended up in an unhealthy relationship towards the end of high school and in college and after it was over I went back to being invisible. Now that I’m a bit older though I’m really grateful for all the invisibility and rejection. It honestly kept me safe until I found someone who liked me for me. Especially as someone who’s on the Ace spectrum. It hurt I’m working through it but I honestly prefer to be invisible. It makes me feel safe.
I’m a white queer ace person, and I can’t relate entirely to you because I’m white, but the way you talked about looking at those friends relationships from the outside, realizing the nuance of oppression from their end, and your relationship to invisibility really resonated.
Another thing I noticed which I feel like is false,is this notion that confidence attracts people. And I think that's absolutely untrue the times in my life that I have been approached most have been the times that I felt the least confident, and the times that I felt the most confident for whatever reason I do not get approached, by men especially.
Desirability is 1000% about how other people perceive you and honestly can have nothing to do with how you perceive yourself. I think using desirability as a marketing tool for a business it's okay because we all know that money is a lie. But when it becomes a part of your inner dialogue and intervision of yourself, girl you in danger!
wow this is such an incredibly insightful point. thank you sister.
I got way more emotional than I expected to - this one hits close to home. I spent my entire upbringing (till I was 18 basically) believing I am undesirable. It's only if you've experienced it do you understand how obsessed with the concept you can become; how all your thoughts slowly devolve into hating yourself every time you see yourself in a mirror or even imagine yourself from someone else's pov.
I experienced it again last year. I was at a party, talking to 2 of my guy friends. One moment they're both trying to hold my attention, the next they're both fixated on another girl (I can't blame them, she is beautiful). I tried adding to the conversation at certain points, 5 times, and each time it was like no one could hear me. After the 3rd time I felt like I was invisible. After the 5th time I decided I couldn't take it so I walked away. I tried to clear my head and talk to my other friends and I just kept thinking back to what had happened. Eventually I went to the bathroom and just dry sobbed to get it out my system - it helped. Worst night ever because the next day I went to a party and with the residual nerves of the same thing happening I got so drunk in the effort to be less uptight. I did it again at the next party. So now I've had to stop drinking at parties because I like my liver 😂
TL;DR - thanks for the video! Based on my many experiences: you nailed everything perfectly
This hits close to home. I'm a cis-woman. We were 2 black kids in an all white school (in Scandinavia) and I remember struggling soooo much with my looks after years of being bullied, trying to look "whiter" by straightening (ruining) my hair, making myself small for white people to accept me, not be "like the other blacks" and all kinds of sick stuff I'm sure I don't have to explain because you know. It took me 25 years to finally be able to start loving myself the way I am and today at 33 I can finally say I don't give a sh*t about being desirable or catering to anybody, haha.
It took YEARS of intensive self-work and deprogramming to be able to say I'm f*cking amazing any which way and actually mean it, and I no longer need anyone else to tell me. I can genuinely say I love myself, my black body and awesome natural hair. It's the highest achievement to finally accept yourself and be at peace. I look back at my younger self and I feel so much compassion and understanding and I'm sometimes amazed that I've managed to come out on the other side, if that makes sense. I feel so bad for anyone else going through this and I wish for everyone to be able to deprogram and be at peace and have deep love for themself.
Desirability is a scam, especially when it's rooted in eurocentrism and mis0gyni. The only one you truly need to impress is yourself.
Also, regarding ageism, I am CONVINCED that people (het cis-men mostly) hate on aging women because many women reach this "I don't give a f*ck about any of this nonsense anymore" when they get older, and Patriarchy can't have happy, self-fulfilled and confident women running around, now can they. Better dampen their spirit by calling them "undesirable" and keep them insecure for their whole life. I say screw that. My life and relationship with myself only gets better as I age and I'd much rather be a happy, healthy and fulfilled old hag than an insecure wreck basing my whole worth as a human being on whether or not other people find me "pretty" or f*ckable for the rest of my life. Don't fall for it.
I can't begin to imagine how hard this video was to make, and I thank you for making us think and create articulate thoughts
As a former "fat kid," who is racially ambiguous and an anorexia survivor
I've always struggled to explain these points to people, probably in part by the fact that people did not want to understand
Thank you
Being harmed either way is something I struggled to understand as a kid. From my experience, desirability is subjective person to person, yet "objective" in the yt supremacist definition. This topic is honestly really sad because regardless of the "objective" desirability, people (especially women and femmes) are harmed. Nobody is "too ugly" or "too pretty" to be attacked, which means none of us are safe no matter how we look/present. Some people really don't believe that, when it's very obviously true. Literally just look at the stats and you'll see the beauty stuff protects very few, if any, people. And don't even get me started on the self-esteem issues because not feeling valued as a human being is so common on both sides (for different reasons).
Watching this video reminds me of a recent post of a little 4yr old dark skin black girl was getting her hair done and, she saw herself in the recording and said " I'm ugly!" She burst into tears! Or when folks compared Blue Ivy to North West because of her " black features". Just fucked up! Makes me HATE this world😢
feeling undesirable as a young person coupled with other things caused an eating disorder that ruined my life. Thank you for this uncomfortably revealing video
same here it was awful!!!
I'm almost 30, and all the rejection I have experienced in my life coupled with all the "I want to fuck you in secret but don't want to date you" relationships I have had have really fucked with my head. I still remember clear as day a guy I was "seeing" at the time telling me that I'd be hot if I lost weight. And my only response was "yeah kinda rude to say but he's right though." And I am just always baffled at myself, watching myself from inside thinking like "You really are worth more than how you're being treated" but still accepting being treated like shit anyway. And it has made me honestly scared of losing weight (and also getting rid of my acne, both). What if I actually do become "desirable"? What happens then? It really scares me. And yet, I get sad when I post a picture of myself to my guy friends and none of them say I'm pretty or cute or anything because they "don't want to be called a simp." It's so complicated and just exhausting at this point.
While I'm thin and white I suck at makeup and look rather unremarkable. I'm basically the nerdy sidekick, though not ugly enough to be ostracized by the "pretty girls", and apparently okay to be seen with. But while I'm mostly just invisible to people as a non-asexual person, I've seen how poorly not only fat people are treated, but I've received some nasty comments myself when I was in a relationship with an overweight guy. I was so appalled finding out the assholes I was surrounded by, I cut off all contact with two former friends because of it. Someone even started a rumour that I was "into fat guys" as if I was the weird one and not them being so preoccupied with my bf's looks. It's been years ago but I'm still angry writing this. This is likely what those "I want to fuck you in secret" people fear. At least the types I've heard about, this seems to be a common theme when someone isn't considered conventionally attractive compared to whatever is currently trending. That they'd have to confront other ppls shitty behaviour and their friends will out themselves as shallow assholes.
Maybe they have other motives for keeping those assholes around, or maybe they're more conflict averse.
Maybe they've internalized this bs and view a "real relationship" as owning someone for other peoples approval, regardless of who they're attracted to or not. Who knows.
Now that I'm no longer naive to this possibility, it's actually a bit scary, but I'd still prefer to know who to weed out of my social circle.
On the other hand, sometimes, people don't want any relationship for completely unrelated reasons. I'm currently in the situation that I don't want to be tied down in case I'm moving overseas, and I don't want to make this decision harder than it already is. On top of that most people aren't 100% well tbh. I'm barely getting my own life in order and can't deal with other peoples issues rn. I'm also currently a conflict averse hypocrite and don't want to have to fight my parents to do whatever the fuck I want that's not marriage and kids. Oh well. And now someone is getting suspicious about my motives despite me being as clear as possible from the start. While this person isn't fat they have other insecurities. Like everyone else apparently. Aaaahhh
I just started reading bell hooks and your videos do a GREAT job of evolving those concepts of race and gender into the next generation(s). Thank you!!!
🥹 thank you
It's crazy how easily society can create insecurities you didn't have before. For me, 2 insecurities I never thought I'd have were my nails and eyebrows until everyone started obsessing over and judging those things.
The Bluest Eye was one of my favorite books in middle school. Along with The Skin I’m In. As little black girl who grew up in poverty I understood the feelings. I definitely need to re-read The Bluest Eye as an adult now that I can process more.
THAT SKIN PART REALLY GOT TO ME
I would like to describe myself as a non-typical black male who doesn’t fit the stereotypes and I’ve been watching a lot of black women talk about these concepts, and as somebody who feels like an outcast within the black community I really relate to this video a lot. It sucks that your skin can be a trap or people have assumptions and prejudice towards you. He is almost a paradox that people in Meyer, the culture that surrounds it, but truly people do not appreciate and may or may take you as a threat. I really do love my skin. I won’t trade it for anything in the world and hopefully in the next life I wish to be black again because at the end of the day, there’s some legitimacy in it, but at the same time it feels like the comments make me think otherwise. Not gonna lie I’m really glad that this woman spoke on some shit that’s probably been plaguing us all.
Disiarability is a scam and taxing. Like no matter what you do people are going to go out of their way to find a reason to dislike you, make you feel inferior, and bully you until they get a sense of control. Its such bullshit and growing up with it destroys you inside out. Gonna read the bluest eye, and also talking abt heavy topics like this is taxing so its understandable to feel tired. You're one of my fav creators and you deserve to feel valued and respected and taken care of
This is a topic I find fascinating but its concepts feel like they are constantly slipping through my fingers, I can never quite grab them and keep them in a way I can conceptualize and manipulate in my mind. Desirability is emotionally and conceptually intangible to me, I can’t nail it down on either a societal level or a personal/emotional one. The best thing that I ever realized/put into words was: “Pretty isn’t the goal.” It seems so simple and so obvious, but it took me forever to get there. If I don’t look good that day, it shouldn’t throw me as much as it did/does. That sentiment is what I always try to remind myself when my entire day’s mood is thrown off by a glance in the mirror.
I’m someone who adequately fits standards of beauty, not to any extreme degree, I’m not a knock-out, but I’m “pleasant-looking.”(?) And I remember being a kid/adolescent and implicitly understanding the valuation of desirability even though I couldn’t put words to it. My parents (specifically my mom) had decided at some point that they wouldn’t emphasize or compliment us on our appearance when we were young, my parents said outfits looked good, or a haircut, or a style fit you, but not any of those unchangeable things/features. But I still felt this pressure to maintain something that I couldn’t quite put into words. I felt like I had to be better, act better, look good more often and it felt like I would be a disappointment if I didn’t live up to it. I really wanted that external validation that I looked good, but I also felt like I would be narcissistic/shallow to want that, and I also would malfunction if a family member did compliment my appearance because it was so odd to me for a family member to mention it.
When I was 14, I was really self-conscious about an outfit and was panicking in my moms room asking her if it looked good and she told me “Don’t fish for compliments” and I said back “have you considered that I genuinely am self-conscious about this outfit and need to know whether it looks good?” She said it was fine and then 10 minutes later she came up to me and said “[name], I want you to know that you are pretty, but if you were horribly disfigured in an accident you would still have worth and value.” And then she walked away. So I’m pretty sure she was just trying really hard to make it so that our sense of self was separate to appearance but damn was I wanting for some “prettiness” validation - which I still feel bad about if I’m honest … that want to be shallowly admired.
Anyway, I think it’s a really interesting topic, and I love explorations like this with character/famous persons as a frame for analysis. In terms of the modern rap/hip-hop gals that don’t necessarily lean into desirability as part of their music presentation, 10/10 would recommend Tierra Whack, I love her music. Thanks for the video!!
I think that feeling of not knowing how to think of desirability is something you described very well.Because it's not that someone calls you ugly or anything, it's just the absence of a compliment or noticing that someone who maybe put more what society deems to attractive into their appearance gets more attention, people approach them, compliment them and they get the social interaction that you notice other people who "aren't" don't. And there are so many factors and different ways for people to notice this, this can be noticed by size and body type, by skin tone, by height by clothes etc. There are many ways to notice it and it can cause a person to look inward and subconconnciously want it. I think this is a natural thing, but it becomes as bad as a day being ruined because the outfit you planned no longer looks how you want it or maybe you didn't get to spend a certain amount of time on your appearance before you left the house that day. It shouldn't be that discouraging but it is because of the society we live in. And honestly regardless of gender the farther you are from a certain standard the more it can hurt. I really feel you when it comes to not wanting to be discouraged by something so shallow, like we can't even see ourselves throughout the day and yet we're so worried and for what? It is lame. but it is real. Pretty isn't goal but in some ways pretty can insert itself everywhere. In love, in work, in friendship. most times you get lucky and it doesn't but it does it sure sucks.
I love this comment. I grew up in abusive home so I got called a "lil ho" whenever I was trying to dress like other girls & be pretty. My mom was very hostile towards me while putting herself down. Her insecurities really rubbed off on me. My sense of self was severely distorted. So naturally I craved validation, but only found myself being used for ego boosts. All while I felt horribly ugly & worthless. I never felt justified when trying to open up about my insecurities, people just literally said "I don't think you need to be told you're pretty". I just wanted to be understood. Many people have said I'm pretty, but at the same time some other people say I'm truly ugly. I just wish there was a healthy middle ground, I still sometimes struggle with my self-esteem at 28yo
I just have to say, I love that your mom was conscious of how she wanted to raise you, and was conscious that her words would affect what your inner world would become.
I also love that she came back and tried to give you what you needed without doing any psychological damage to you. Too bad there are way more people outside, and they can really do a doozy on us.
the concept of attractiveness is similar to that of whiteness. it's put on a pedestal, there are privileges attached to it, and if people can't be it then they're made to feel like their proximity to it is the next best thing. there's even the similar aspect of its very meaning being subject to cultural changes that then make obtaining it or being close to it that much harder. you also have people who engage in performative behaviors in the hopes that they'll be socially rewarded by being seen as part of or the chance to get close to that which they desire. like publicly announcing one's disdain for dark-skinned black women, being really vocal about not being attracted to fat people, etc.
You put it into the exact words I needed !
This is my struggle am trying so hard to be accepted by people and society but i find it painful when other women are accepted but not me its like what am.i lacking???
people have made it quite clear to me throughout my life (sometimes in disgusting ways) that they do find me desirable, and it’s so … ostracising? i’m nd and have anxiety disorder so already i find it so hard to socialise, but the desirability plays a definite role. people won’t speak to me, i’m called intimidating because of my appearance so i get avoided, men will instantly cease talking to me once they learn i have a partner and the men who talk to my partner either sexualise me or won’t talk about me/us at all because they know they will sexualise me and it won’t fly. girls have resented me and turned their backs on me (the root of a lot of my anxiety stems from that ostracisation). it’s a real double-edged sword. you look how society wants you to look, and so they expect what they want of you too, expect you to please them and be in service of them effectively, impose sexualisation on you when you never asked for it. within that imposition, they don’t allow any space for your agency. you are not a person anymore but a thing, and any other skills or traits you might have must not be real at all
Phew
Just came on here to once again give a standing ovation. You just get it and you put it into words. Like wow, chefs kiss.
🥺🥺🥺 thank you
love this essay, and you're right it's a damn difficult topic to talk about. Like: people will act upon you from their expectations of how you SHOULD be based on how THEY THINK you look, and when you... don't act in concert with those expectations and... don't SHARE those assessments of your looks or... have a HISTORY of being constantly told the opposite, they get angry. THEY get upset and treat it like a failing, or trickery, in YOU that you are not conforming to their expectations of how you SHOULD act, SHOULD feel, SHOULD think about yourself, SHOULD have been treated by others in the past based on their opinion of you now.
And none of that is at ALL your fault and yet THAT'S how society treats it; as something you 'do' to other people or things that should be 'true' about you because they're all part of the trope in their heads. It's so tangled up and difficult to work through. Calling beauty a trap is absolutely correct.
desirability/lookism is so ingrained in us that i even had to catch myself watching when you talked abt being viewed as ugly when you were younger because i realized that there was still that voice in my head saying that was sad not just in and of itself but because you are beautiful now. like what does it say that were trained to even afford pity differently based on someones looks? fantastic video as always
The Recommending Numbers have not abandoned you, they're just late.
You're beautiful, Khadija... and you're intelligent and articulate. You're important, and your voice is necessary at this time. You had to go thru certain things to be who you are and make the difference that you do. 💯 I appreciate you bringing who you are and the vulnerability of your experiences to us. You're gorgeous, too... I hope you know that. Being beautiful is great but being more than just that is better... and you are a whole package my dear.
My major takeaway from this is that we spend to much time asking questions about being desirable, but not enough about what we do and how we act when desiring others.
Khadija, I’ve been watching your videos for a few years and just wanted to let you know sorta bare bones that you are genuinely one of the most beautiful/attractive people I have ever seen - like point blank. not just for your looks but for your intelligence and how articulate and funny you are. NEVER doubt yourself!!!
15:07 "People don't tend to realize the effect their words and actions have on others (...), not even taking the time to think about what damage it could do to a child to feel undesired by an entire society". This made me tear up. As an Eastern-european girl who grew up speaking the "wrong" language and from an early age hearing how bad people who speak it are, it made me feel useless, taking up space, unworthy and unlovable. Like I was not SAFE anywhere I went, because I was still esentially me, even if I spoke the preffered language and concealed the first language I learned to speak. I felt deeply ashamed of myself, my family. Like there was something inherently wrong with me just based on the fact of cultural ancestry. I hid it as well as I could and it filled every waking moment with anxiety and sense of danger (what if they found out? they would disown me, hurt me). And it's hard to grow out of that as an adult. Talking about it in therapy helps in understanding it, but it's so built into me that I don't know if this anxiety of not-belonging, not being good enough on a cellular level will ever go away.
Khadija, thank You for Your thought and emotion-provoking videos. Very happy to have found Your channel.
I read that book for my African Lit class! I'm glad I took it. I learned a lot and it opened and expanded my worldview a lot. It's a class I still think about a lot, and I'm glad I can watch your channel too that talks about such social issues. I really agree with you that desirability is a trap.
The clouds section was heartbreaking, I can never imagine those feelings you went through. I didn’t grow up desired or pretty, I was an awkward geeky kid, but I never had to worry about my skin color because I’m pale white and would get complimented based on how pale I was. It was one of my only desirable points. To hear from your point of view, it made me re-evaluate my own childhood.
Thank you for your videos and your ability to always let me reflect on myself
I've been thinking about desirability so much throughout my life. It always felt out of reach, but then I finally accepted myself and transitioned and now I feel like it's possible to be desired in a way I felt completely disconnected to before. Because even if I still don't fit the insane standards of beauty applied to women, I love my body so much just for being what it is. I have a complicated relationship with desirability now, where sometimes it feels so important and other times it feels irrelevant, but ultimately I'm just so happy with being myself that it's easier to put up with the times I feel undesirable.
It does help that my QPP tells me how attractive I am all the time 🥰
17:11 This comment about being fat. Fat and/or transgender and/or dark-skinned or...
This video gutted me. Thank you, thank you, thank you for releasing it! So many of us are going through some form of this.
💕💕💕
Whew...this brought me back to my undergrad college course. I was an English Major and Africana Studies Minor and I took a class where I had to read every Toni Morrison book (she even released a book that year). Basically, a heavy traumatic Toni book every week and omg, it wrecked me. I would be sobbing, typing up my written homework response while suffering flashbacks triggered by Morrison's stories that always include some form of SA on black women, especially young black girls. I don't know how I survived that class and now I have a whole shelf of Morrison books in my personal library.
your points about how people use ice spice's music quality as an opening for broad-spectrum, unconstructive criticism is familiar.
when someone has already decided they don't like something because of bias against a certain demographic, they'll pick anything "acceptable" to try and make their criticisms seem more valid, and then devolve from there to unconstructive attacks. meanwhile, they're not putting that same energy into criticizing the thing from the other side of the demographic divide. (e.g. queer TV being hyperscrutinized for having mediocre writing or unhealthy relationships devolving to "all gay shows are bad", while media for straight people gets a free pass.)
you can't win with them, because they're playing by their own rules.
As soon as I hit teenhood my classmates made it known to me very openly that I was not attractive or desirable. I was that kid who was the butt of the "I dare you to ask her out" joke that the boys would play. Puberty doesn't treat most of us well and that transitionary period was really rough for me. Especially because I didn't have the language or knowledge at the time that I was non-binary which only added more stress to my life because I didn't understand why it was so hard for me to feel comfortable in my own body, particularly when I was dressed feminine. I internalized the shame I felt about having excess fat, cystic acne, a hairy body and as soon as I could buy my own clothes I was dressing in strictly baggy menswear to cover myself up. I hid in my clothes. I hid behind heavy makeup. You hit the nail on the head when you said what defines beauty constantly shifts and evolves. Having a sister and a mother who are obsessed with looks taught me to chase after material things what would make me more beautiful. I had to learn for myself how to make myself more beautiful on the inside. And once I did that, I realized that physical appearances don't matter nearly as much as the beauty of someone's soul being. I no longer judge people on their looks anymore or criticize other people for their looks. I'm much more interested and hold more value in what someone's soul has to offer me.
girl, I was the "Africa" girl in a predominantly white community. white folk and black folk alike for years made fun of my "kaffirhare" (n*gga hair loosely translated) my skin the colour of sh*t (I kid you not, EXACT WORDS) and my full breasted ugly body (never skinny enough to be desirable). Somehow, in my mid 20s (maybe shifting beauty standards) I morphed into "a BEAUTY" and was celebrated as such for the first time in my life. But I still feel like that little girl who was mocked by her crush and his friend in front of the whole class and told I was very very ugly.
But now sometimes I feel like public property, I almost miss being invisible.
I don't know if this is a normal reaction, but your video made me sob. I did not realize that I would find myself within the women you discussed, nor that this would hit so deep to the core. It does. As a black woman raised in South Carolina this reaches.
Please release these to Spotify, your content is the perfect thing to walk to and learn whilst judging the society we live in
I don't want to give the impression that I want to compare or contrast or claim ownership of your experience, first of all, but I will say as a white, very fat person with "good bone structure" and was told growing up that I had a "pretty face" as a way for people to dodge their feelings about my body, I definitely relate to the feelings of dissonance you're describing. Growing up I started seeing the world of beauty through a heavily weight based lens that blinded me to the reality of myself. It's from this lens I want to say I've always appreciated the way you talk about fatness as seemingly just another trait, with its own unique nuances but also social categories that it gets lumped into outside of conventionally attractive. I have often had conventionally attractive friends and I used to envy and sometimes resent them until I opened myself up to the pain they were actually feeling, and spending time in a different context (the internet, in a niche community where my unique set of traits suddenly did become attractive, desirable) I got a little glimpse into how messy both ends of the see-saw are.
You do not know how badly I needed this. I was born with physical deformity and although I had felt desired by someone else the self-hatred is so real I can taste it but it's something I've really been working through and this was very helpful
Thank you so much for your videos Khadija. They have helped me so much, and have prompted me to unlearn so much of the bs that I have been conditioned to believe.
I don’t even have the words to express how important this video is. Thank you so much.
This is a great video. Thank you got sharing it with us.
I used to do adult entertainment, specifically in the BBW niche, and the way I was being treated between that world and by my fans online versus the way I’m treated as a regular fat person in every day life was a total mind fuck.
On one hand I have thousands of pervy men online doing the most for my attention, and then on the other hand I’m stared at, harassed, and excluded in many ways in the real world. I feel so unseen for the person I actually am either way though. All the fans want from me is this hyper sexual BBW fetish fantasy come to life and the rest of society just wishes heart disease and death on me.
When you talk about people wanting to possess beauty, it’s such a powerful and important aspect of being desirable, like yes ofc being desirable puts your foot in the door but there’s this aspect to it that is so gut wrenching, most often people don’t really see you, they only see your desirability and it sometimes gets difficult to navigate because you think you’re being heard or understood yet the other person Is probably disregarding your whole being because they’re too focused on your human shell and their desire to possess you, especially men, they do this often!! They feel that your beauty is something for them to own and they’re entitled to it as a men because society allows them to feel this way, the whole time you’re not being heard about your needs and wants, thinking this person is here for who you are and not what you looks like, like do they ever listen at all?? They’re too distracted and sometimes they’re needs over power yours because at the end of the day, it’s not about you or your desirability, it’s more about them and what they want and believe they can get from you, you sorta become a passenger in the backseat in this whole ordeal!!!
I feel like desirability is like Xibalba(Mayan underworld), as in it has layers of bad to worse
Physical desirability being the worst, at the bottom, cause it's fleeting, ever-changing, objectifying and in reality never works out
After a person casts off physical desirability, comes the next layer, financial or intellectual desirability. Being only a bit better, since these can actually give you something for your trouble, be rewarding, somewhat. But it's still shallow, looking at your contributions, or lack thereof.
Even when we find people that mutually don't care about our physical appearance or abilities, our financial or intellectual achievements, we share genuine interests and care with, we're scared to fully show ourselves, what if they find something undesirable hiding behind the veil(our minds still poisoned by these expectations, burdened), and we feel guilty to that person for not trusting them to love us still, beat ourselves up. But in reality we've come so far, learned so much. But being fully at peace with who we are is probably one of the hardest things to do
The Bluest Eye should be required reading in schools.
I think the one thing I hate the most about being perceived by other people is this concept of desirability. When I was a kid, I was in a very white neighborhood, so I was basically invisible when I wasn't being used as an example of what not to be. The only times I was looked at were by men my father's age or older. So, desirability for me versus my peers felt like a threat. And I don't think I've divorced those feelings even at almost 27. I was conditioned with this feeling that obviously I'm undesirable, so if someone approaches me to tell me otherwise, it's to lure me into a bad situation. I don't know how to necessarily escape this pattern, but your video resonated with me. Maybe sharing this trapped feeling will help others know they aren't alone.