He’s femme, she’s masc, it’s… "confusing" tiktok? | khadija mbowe
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- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2024
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Time stamps
0:00 Play
2:46 Part 1: The Confusion
4:56 The Gender Script
10:48 Part 2: Who is the woman?
16:32 Part 3: I used to be a gender essentialist
22:29 Closing Remarks
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How society sexualizes us
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Who Is The Woman?!?! (*Q&A*)
• Video
She's Masc, I'm Fem - That Doesn't Make Us 'Gay' | LOVE DON'T JUDGE
• She's Masc, I'm Fem - ...
He's 'Feminine' & I'm 'Masculine' - And We're In Love | LOVE DON'T JUDGE
• He's 'Feminine' & I'm ...
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Well it's like boobs vs butt (sniff). I mean boobs are life-giving, boobs are milk, boobs are beauty, THAT'S order but butt... well... butt is shadow, (voice cracking) butt is CHAOS, and BUTT... that's NOT GOOD. Booty is the pit where man must slay the dragon (starts crying)... I just.. (trails off)
- Jordan Peterson.
I…am turning off my comments yall play too much 💀
@@KhadijaMbowe I am an agent of positive chaos. 😈
@@KhadijaMbowe...or something.
I came here from Khadija posting this comment on Insta 😭
girl what the hell did i just read? 😭😭
Ok the “they did straight diagonally” comment was hilarious lmao
Perfect (tongue in cheek) description! They’re a great couple and I’m so happy they feel comfortable and free to express themselves so openly.
I laughed so hard at it too 🤣
Society: “BE STRAIGHT!”
Them: “okay!”
Society: “…. No, not like that…”
LITERALLY 💀💀
That's what I thought when I read the comment which said "it's okay to love one another but lord what people are doing is abomination" like what !?!
They're straight and you still have a problem....the right is never satisfied... They have have to make everyone fit into that rigid mold of "HoLy RiGhTeOuSnEsS"
😂 that’s for real
Wouldn't it be great if similarly presenting couples could become visible as well. I love how it's tipping conformers and contrarians upside down.
IKR
I always describe my gender as "yes I am a cis woman but also I'd love to live in a world where the concept of gender just doesn't exist"
Then why did you call yourself a cis woman? Be the change you want to see
@@mo.ka.9661let’s come up with a decent, less confusing singular pronoun and I’m on board.
… so you’re just a cis woman then?
@@mo.ka.9661 Because sex still exists, she's a female
Same. I'm a cis woman because I was told I was a girl, so I hung out with other girls and learned to like some of the things other girls liked in order to bond. And I've never been uncomfortable in my body. But ultimately I think it's all pretty silly and it would be easier if I were just me, without the silly boxes the idea of gender creates. What even is gender anyway?
as a straight man that is both quite 'masculine' (muscles, tanktops, masculine mannerisms and voice etc.) and 'feminine' (wears pink makeup, pink clothes and hair clips) their relationship gives me hope lol
There are plenty of ladies out there who love men who embrace both masculinity and femininity! I'm asexual, but I'm most aesthetically attracted to guys like you, and so are many of my non-ace friends! You'll do just fine as long as you embrace your true self and stay confident in who you are ❤
@@psychotophatcat aww you're too kind! sending love to all my ace friends out there 🩷
gotta agree with the other comment, I think a lot of women do appreciate at least some femininity in a man, it shows that you’re secure in yourself and also have an understanding of aesthetic things
Hell yeah! Queer enby here just telling you that you're appreciated and valid, and I know you're gonna find your person homie 🤙🏾
There are 10000% women, NB etc people aside from cis men who love men who like feminine things, they sometimes won't be as outspoken about it because it's "taboo", but they absolutely exist.
Are they bringing each other joy? Yes.
Are they hurting anyone? No.
Proper response? Be happy for them 'cause love is a beautiful thing.
It could all be so simple…
fr no one is obligated to make sense to others.
100% agreed.
Right! The world is a mess, life is hard. If they make each other happy and arent toxic etc... then let them be
This is my viewpoint with literally every person and situation.
I think outside of gender, race also plays a part here. Usually, black men are seen as the pinnacle of masculinity, and white women are seen as the ultimate expression of femininity. To see the roles flipped across gender and race lines is interesting.
I was trying to focus cause I get carried away 😂 but yes. Yes.
Interesting
I don’t see white women as the ult expression of femme at all , find them to be a bit Masc femme. That’s just me
@@lorianmona3316 White women don’t necessarily have to meet it , but it was the intended message though for a long time.
If you genuinely believe what you've just said you require more help than the people in the video..
As a bisexual, these two are like... The perfect image of what I look in my partners lol.
Bisexual coming out woop
I didn't even know before, but now I totally see that it's what I was always looking for.
Same lmfao
Yeeesss 🙈🙈🙈
❤❤❤😊
As a science teacher, when you said "One is dominant and the other is..." my brain auto filled that with recessive.
The exact opposite happened to me in highschool biology...
@@simply_nebulousYou just brought back a core memory of my best friend confidently saying "submissive" when asked what the opposite of dominant is in our 10th grade biology class 😭
4:27 girl I HATE the top=manly, bottom=feminine and the bottom slander! They literally took sexism and made it gay 🤬
I see people constantly acting like being a "bottom" is intrinsic to being afab and being a "top" is intrinsic to being amab all the time, I have sadly even dealt with this from other trans people even, it goes that deep in how people internalize it.
I have had trans women try to coerce PIV, try to make me submissive, I've had trans men act like I was intrinsically less valuable for not being AMAB (which yes, is a bit ironic) because they weren't experienced in the concept of topping without a natal penis and still viewed PIV as the only "real" form of sex 🤷
People are out of it due to all these societal expectations I swear.
Please tell we're not still confusing gender expression and sexual orientation in 2023 😳😳
Louder for the people at the back
Unfortunately, we're still in the early stages of waking up, and many, many people still aren't there or haven't even begun having to reconcile with the fact gender is a sham, so we've still got work to do to change the public perception of gender as a concept and be patient with people who aren't there yet, and alas accept some people will be close minded and never accept that they might've been lied to until their dying breath.
Even in the LGBT Community, some of the same rhetoric is barked up. Not too long ago, people were upset that a straight man was on RPDR (Drag Race) and found it “regressive” … not realizing that it’s important for all types of people to understand that “feminity” should and can be expressed by straight men in various forms - from the subtle to the not-so. It helps us get closer to doing away with gender stereotypes.
And for those who’ll say, “it’ll make people confused!” I’ve been in theatrical productions with straight men who’ll flirt… all you have to do is ask a person’s sexual orientation, and if they aren’t into you, then leave it at that. It’s that simple… if you find them attractive, stop being weak and ask! Lol
Exactly…because I’m like , where is the confusion 😂
I am surrounded by cisheteros at my retail job, they are still very much doing just that.. 💀
I'm very femme and people have been calling me gay since I can remember. But shocker, I'm not. I even tried to believe I was all my life because I wasn't attracted to anybody. I thought something was broken. All until I found out what asexual means. When I tell people I'm aroace, they are always confused. Some even have the audacity to tell me that's another name for gay but don't want to be gay
Truth is you just gotta do what you got to do, people are gonna talk anyway.
Ugggh I'm sorry for all the aphobia you get from people, that's so shitty. I'm alloaro so I'm like. Supportively patting your shoulder or something
I’m terrified of telling people I’m ace. But I also recognize that if we stay silent, people will forever continue believing in harmful stereotypes and stigmatizing others. So I’m proud of you for being real, but I’m also a hypocrite cuz it’s really scary out there!
as a bisexual woman who finds feminine men very attractive I feel seen
Shoutout to feminine men, gotta be one of my favorite genders
same!! 😭
I love y'all💜✌🏾
SAME!!
Yep, I'm attracted to both femininity and masculinity regardless of the gender it's attached to.
I've always wanted a relationship where me and my partner aren't constraint by gender norms. Like let's both be bad bitches one day and the next let's build a house.
THIS!
Same!!
Exactly
We're out there! Love my bf 🥰
THIS
I have turner syndrome, and it definitely made me realize the malleability of sex and gender. I have been on estrogen since I was a preteen because my body would not make enough estrogen to jump start or sustain puberty. When I asked why I had to be on the pills, they gave me a vague answer about calcium. But the part that was clear, it was to help me fit in, and for my own self esteem. Thankfully, I am “happy with my part in the play.”
But what if I wasn’t? When I learned about the concept of trans identity, it made sense. I didn’t have the same mental hurdles to jumps as others. Taking medication as one way (of many) to affirm identity, sounded awfully familiar. Why is it socially acceptable for me, and not for a trans person?
People like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro are so willfully ignorant, “facts don’t care about your feelings.” So what am I chopped liver? They wanna talk “logic” science”, and “biology”, they want define man and women in some “clinical” way. Ok. let’s talk sex chromosomes. Tell me what bathroom to use just by my xx or xy. You can’t find it, because I have turner syndrome, meaning my x is missing or broken, so what do I do? What about someone with extra x’s and y’s, do we get our own bathrooms? They know people like me exist, that’s why you won’t see conservatives use this seemingly “scientific definition” of sex and gender.
People like me muddy the waters, acknowledging we exist unravels their rhetoric. They wouldn’t deny me estrogen meds at 12 years old. In many places, an adult trans person who needs the same meds, for basically the same reasons, would struggle to get those meds. Why? Bigotry, plain and simple.
Thanks for your comment, it was interesting to hear about your experiences with gender. Have you watched the SBSK interviews on RUclips with Celeste? They're a nonbinary who has Turner syndrome and both their interviews are great.
A slight correction, Down Syndrome is not caused by a duplication of sex chromosomes, XXX and XXY are Trisomy X and Klinefelter's respectively, both intersex conditions. Down Syndrome is caused by duplication, but in another section that doesn't determine sex.
@@LisaJane11709 thank you, let me fix that.
Estrogen pills also help you to regulate calcium in your body. So at least they didn't lied as much I guess? But of course I get what you're saying.
Wow. You didn’t have to share, but thank you so much for this. I came put to my parents (conservative Christian), and I’m asexual lesbian. I hope you’re doing well!! Thanks again for sharing 🌱💗
as a 'lesbian', the allure of a femme man is not lost on me. and, at times, it feels like i can be invalidating to my own sexuality to be so attracted to these men. but i think once we throw away these cishet respectability politics, we can be a lot freer
As a femme lesbian I’m attracted to femme women and find feminine men aesthetically inspiring 😊
You are bisexual.
Go do something important with your life , not comment about your sexuality. Gay rights was about giving them rights as normal humans and I'm always against homophobes who hate gays for just existence.
But stop telling about your sexuality , it doesn't does anything to the world .
@@Cateater123 what are you talking about??? this is a video about sexuality
No you can't.
Femininity isn’t “OWNED” by women and masculinity isn’t “OWNED” by men. Any gender/identity can exude these energies. Can’t tell you how many times as a gay man women have told me “YOU WANT TO BE ME” simply because I wear makeup and nails…very narcissistic and bold to assume that.
Ugh I’m so sorry to hear that, that sounds horrible 😖 it’s like uhh eww no I don’t wanna be a hateful person like u! 😒
yes yes yesss
And here I am, A non binary afab person who once wanted to be like you :😀
Thats fucked up what they were telling you, never let anyone claim your being.
We don't claim those women
everyone asks who is the Woman but nobody asks how is the Woman 😔
Damn, this 🎯
True 🥲
At the risk of sounding like an insufferable contrarian or "that guy", which I swear I'm not trying to do, for the comments here saying this comment is true people ask how is the man even less.
😂😂😂
@@gregvs.theworld451 we know. that wasn’t the joke
"There's a true lack of imagination of ways people can be and express themselves" YES
this is why feminism and trans rights are both a part of the same fight for gender equality! this couple are facing a version of the invasive questioning that trans people face all the time (i came out as trans at 13 and had literal adult strangers coming up to me and asking if i had an 'innie or outie' :/ )
I’ll never understand why society sees something they deem “different” and they immediately want to know how they have s.e.x. This happens with disabled people with able bodied partners, too. So weird.
It's so dehumanizing! They wouldn't say these things out loud randomly to people they respected as people who deserve privacy.
@@mewmew6158 100% agree! I’ve personally never looked at anyone and said “wow I wish I knew how they did the do”, so the mindset is so foreign to me and strange. It almost like they reduce anyone deemed separate from societal standards as just sexual objects and I just don’t get it
Yeah exactly
Yeslike what does it have to do with you!
Trans people, gay people, other queer people, etc etc etc.
As a person who has lived a very queer life for a very long time, it amazes me that people think a relationship like theirs is strange or confusing. When it comes to the huge range of human experience, a GNC straight couple is quite literally the tip of the iceberg.
Barely even picking at the surface
Me having been in online GNC, Role Reversal, and femdom spaces for years am like “oh this is just another Tuesday.”
GNC?
@@WafflePancakes1314 gender nonconforming
I think for some people it’s easier to understand that queer people have different relationship dynamics because we often have to than that straight people can just as easily
My gf and I are just like this couple! She’s a more masc leaning trans woman and I’m a more feminine trans man ❤ she’s this couple is like seeing us but cis lmao I absolutely adore this and them and I hope they find a lot of happiness with each other
that’s so cute!
Yeah a man and a woman lol 😂, i see nothing abnormal at all . They just fetished themselves into opposite gender
that makes no sense, whats the point of transitioning if you are doing the things that make you more dysphoric?
@@daroom9854 gender isnt intertwined with personality, even though you can see trends between the two. all being trans is is feeling like your in a body that isn't yours, and therefore personality has nothing to do with it! the trans woman can like masculine things and not get dysphoria from that. it's just complicated and you'll have to get more context to their relationship to properly make a standpoint
@@daroom9854 I’m pretty sure cis men/women who wear clothes of the opposite gender don’t experience dysphoria, and I’m guessing it’s the same for trans people too.
Actually, this couple gives me a hope. As a female who often seen as masculine, never knew such relationship could exist. I'm very very happy to know them.
i find nothing confusing abt this relationship lmfao
Right. What's so hard to understand?
They both look so happy. We need more relationships like that.
Yeah no literally. This lit happens all the time with cis-passing nonbinary ppl lmao (i know these people in particular are cis but i mean in terms of like. Appearances. This is not unprecedented lmao)
Edit; or like you know also bi cis ppl
Exactly, all I see is a happy couple.
It was a little confusing to me but only because the way feminine men have been stereotyped in media. They are usually portrayed as gay.
Also the script changes depending on geolocation. Rural women can wear flannels and be feminine, and infact most women do. Yet in urban locations flannels can mean lesbian /masc.
When I (cis bi woman) was in college, I had a very disorienting conversation with a (rural, southern) relative who was happy to see that I'd kept my 'country heart' when I went to college up in Boston ... because I was wearing a plaid flannel shirt that I had included in my wardrobe in an intentional attempt to make my look a little less 'straight'.
@@MissaBrevis That gave me a good giggle. I'm Bostonian raised by a southern gramma, I've seen how different the expectations can be when visiting her sisters down south.
i think people understand function clothes as ‘function’. Like Rural areas usually equal farms and flannels, but I still think there is judgement placed on what you wear when you go out for ‘fun’. Like when you go to a dinner party or go to church.
But I agree with where you are coming from. For a long time it was masculine for a women to simply go out in pants. Like my mom (RIP) remembers fighting to wear pants to work which she simply wanted to do for comfort. Now in my generation and beyond it’s style of pants rather then pants themselves that get genderized. It’s interesting how the rules shift once the genderization of something like clothes is challenged.
For sure. If we talked about the script for masculinity in rural areas it's about diy and functionality in clothing. Anything which is deemed unnecessary like interest in arts/fashion or grooming is feminine and shamed for "men" to do.
@@anikalehr5181 it’s shamed in women too tbh
This couple is cute as hell. I'm so tired of people making everything a "thing" can people just LIVE?
You know, as a bisexual woman, i have wondered before if there are straight people who have attraction opposed to the "script" like many queer people do, and its awesome to see imo! The way i love masculine women, is still me being attracted to a woman, so i always was like theres gotta be a guy into a hot butch women right. And there is. Same for fem men.
And also, this is the thing that i love about this gender thing too, we can do whatever we want with it regardless of our sexuality and gender as well tbh lol. I love seeing this comfortable break of the script, seeing them happy with who they are fully.
I honestly don’t believe they’re confused, I call it “pretend confusion”
Yup. It's a disingenuous confusion - it's a way for them to say "I think you're wrong/bad" without seeming rude.
performative confusion
It feels a little bit like "concern trolling" in the sense that people try to (poorly) cloak their harassment in a much less malevolent attitude. They can't ever hide their contempt well enough for it to work, though.
Oh they confused. Everything confuse 'em.
@KC it's unfortunately not just the conservatives
to be fair I see a lot of confusion of these types of couples in both straight and queer communities. I've seen queer people question relationships like this just as much and say 'he's just on his way to gay' etc. I think people in general have a hard time with anything that doesn't line up with their own experiences.
This is a good point it’s like when studs get surprised when they’re attracted to another stud. It’s like you know y’all are both women right like if your attracted to fems that’s one thing but if you are simply attracted to women that’s another thing
@@jasminemoon9965 or when two masc presenting/fem presenting people are in a relationship, everyone tries to guess whose the top and bottom 😂 like honey that is none of your business haha
There are even gay men who get surprised by being attracted to Trans Men… like girl, they look like cis men and are men so idk about you? But I’m game! 😂
Yeah I feel like especially if there's two fems or two masculine presenting people together. People want someone to be masculine and the other to be feminine so it confuses them.
Unfortunately, this is true. Even the queer community tries to fit each other into boxes.
I agree, a frustrating tendency from some queer people I see sometimes is the idea that being GNC is something that is strongly (and even *only*) associated with queerness. Telling GNC straight/straight presenting people that they're "queerbaiting" or "eggs" or whatever just because they're GNC is not good and it only perpetuates gender roles and stereotypical representations of queer people! Everyone should be free to dress and act however they want without anyone (including queer people) questioning their sexuality or gender. I think that sometimes queer people need to more closely observe their own internalized biases rather than assuming that because they're queer, they can't have them or dismissing their confusion or dislike of, for example, feminine presenting straight men for acting stereotypically "queer". I'm a queer nb person and I still sometimes have to correct for the biases that I grew up with regarding other people's gender presentation
I think also the racial implications that are expected in heterosexual relationships probably plays a part too. Particularly for Jay, I’m sure he’s facing a particular version of homophobia, racism and effemephobia.
“If you don’t understand you don’t have to, but what you do have to do is: not act like an ass to people you don’t know (or people you do know), not assume that your reality is theirs.” I need this on a shirt
This gave me the confidence to accept my preference of guys. I’m a straight girl who is feminine presenting but I have always found fem men cute but I was always convinced that they were always gay. This gives me hope for my love life 😂
Same here, icon. Here's to gorgeous men and having healthy, loving relationships w/them lol
I hope you find him that’s so cute 💗
We really needing Femboy Friday in the club rn 💯.
Fem men are very attractive to me Im glad Im not the only one 😭😭💀
Jeez I didn't expect for anybody to really see this comment lol. Thx for the kind words 😊
People are dusty af 😂 Two hotties being hot together is confusing the rigid binary?! Like sit down n mind ur business babes 🤣
seriously though
Exactly
This made me cackle bc it's so true 😭😭
I remember coming out as Lesbian and my local community of lesbians trying to find a box for me on the masc or fem side. I didn’t fit cleanly into their rules and struggled to date even after I came out. And it was LESBIANS who had my head screwed up for the longest time about how I present and who I was allowed to date based on my presentation. I did like athletic/sporty girls (not exclusively, but a lot) but I wasn’t suppose to because I was too ‘boy’ presenting and ‘boyish’ girls like fem girls. It was all b.s. and it took me over a decade and being introduced to more open LGBTQ+ communities to really start to unpack it.
Its like heteronormativity all over again.
As a very queer woman who’s dated a proud femboy, I feel seen. We are still very close friends and I have found happiness in other relationships. I admittedly live in what we call “the heathen bubble” so the relationship in our circle was never even questioned or looked at as out of the ordinary.
I think this couple is the perfect example of the difference between gender & sexuality. A lot of people think a man who prefers femm presentation/interests/behavior must be gay. My best friend growing up was horribly bullied because he’d rather knit than play sports, or decorate cakes instead of video games with the other boys. I had to talk him out of suicide several times and I got into fights standing up for him. Now he’s happily married to a woman who loves& accepts him as he is. He’s never been with or romantically interested in a man. Men can enjoy nail polish, makeup etc and be straight. Everyone should be able to look & present however they want.
This is just the world we live in
He'll come out at some point. I feel bad that he's forced to be in a relationship with a woman.
Wholeheartedly agree
@@OzCroc You're part of the problem, stop pushing the stereotype that all gay men are feminine
@@OzCroc lol? Troll mf 💀
As a queer person that has dated straight men, asking them to define binary gender is like playing Misogyny Olympics.
As a bisexual woman I completely understand this. I would love to be in a relationship like this. The most attractive man I ever dated constantly got questioned if he was gay. I love gender bending norms and I love seeing relationships like this. I also love studs too. One of the most attractive women I’ve ever dated was a stud. This perfectly illustrates to me what I mean when I say I’m attracted to femininity and masculinity and not necessarily their biological sex
I first saw them on TikTok and I’ve always thought they’re such a cute couple! What gets me is that people say women shouldn’t be hyper feminine because it’s a “stereotype” of women. And men shouldn’t be hyper masculine because it’s “toxic masculinity”. But then a couple who doesn’t fit in either of those boxes appears and those same people are confused.
Once you realize gender=\=sex things become SO much easier lmao.
And when you realise that 'gender' has been the English equivalent of 'genre' for much of the language's history, the distinction becomes so much easier. Treating gender and sex as synonyms is very modern.
@@fruitygarlic3601 exactly
Once you realise that gender ≠ sex
You also realise that you were wrong...
And that human life isn't easy...
And that just because it's simple doesn't means it's correct.
@@fruitygarlic3601 I'm gonna add that to my research board lol
But also, gender and gender presentation are not the same. So like he is a straight cis man who is also feminine in gender expression. And that's fine.
"love is between a man and a woman!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!!11!!!!! >:(((((((("
man and woman: *get together*
"WHAT IS THIS MADNESS????????"
it's the inability to conceive more than one cookie cutter type of relationship for me 😒
😂 this comment in a nutshell describes tiktok
“They did straight diagonally” is pretty funny ngl
I know this is such a minor thing but hearing “remember you can always change your mind” is genuinely so encouraging and healing to hear
nothing shows that gender as a concept is fragile as fuck then when people lose their shit over men wearing heels
Never will understand why people can't wrap their heads around the world not falling into neat, dichotomous categories. We don't complain about flightless "birds," but somehow this couple confuses people. Sigh....*existential fatigue*
idk man, I've had people try to bullshit me into the idea that platypus are mammals rather than flightless birbs so
@@gingermaniac5484 Lol, the platypus is clearly one of the universe's great mysteries that is unknowable.
@@gingermaniac5484 Platypus are clearly multidimensional deities
we live in a world where the platypus exists and yet people are hung up on femboys and tomgirls like smh
@@Romanticoutlaw They feel very threatened and to be honest that's hilarious. Someone tweeted: "We all gonna be gay in 10 years because of feminism" They see feminine men being themselves and confident and come to the conclusion that this is some LGBT - feminist conspiracy to erase them 🤣🤣🤣 They are crying all over Twitter, IG and Facebook 😅.
I used to think I was attracted to masc women and fem men (sort of the opposite of what Khadija was talking about in the video) but I eventually figured out that what I'm into is people who own and enjoy their gender presentation instead of being ruled by expectations, and it just so happens that a lot of those people break from our binary norms. I'm so happy for this couple, and I hope more of us can get on their level!
same experience here!
I'm a transgender het guy and I relate to him. I'm not quite as feminine, but I'm feminine enough for some people to say I must be bi or nonbinary. The same people who claim they understand gender =/= gender roles. I just roll my eyes.
They’re confused bc they’re in someone else’s business and someone else’s relationship lol stay confused
That's what I was thinking! If they haven't invited you in for a threesome, then they don't need to explain anything and nobody needs to worry! 🤣
Exactly
OOP
Period
As a bi/pan womanish person (on the masculine side of femme & afab, no I don't know how else to describe it) who's attracted to feminine men, multiple people have tried to tell me I must just be lesbian... I guess because they just can't believe I could really interested in femme men? It's so bizarre
Or they think femme men shouldn't exist lol so the only femme you can like is the woman variety
I am the same way honestly
@@STRcircaFKR that's actually so true.... Cuz there's not even half of this "annoyance" towards, idk - let's say a: cis man that's attractive to NON feminine presenting woman... it's generally viewed as less of a "big deal" when woman present "masculine", I've often observed that - but for men, presenting feminine it's a radical idea for lots of people (ignorant ones, obviously)
this!
i think its deep rooted misogyny(?) towards femininity in men because culture constantly dichotomizes gender roles
People when their stereotypes don't align with reality: 😰😰😰🤯🤯🤯
This is such a great conversation. One of my clients is a straight man whom chooses to dress in women’s clothing. He tells me all
The time how much hatred he gets from the community because he won’t transition. He’s not trans! He is a man who feels himself in an adorable dress and heels, and I am so here for it. You do you! It’s just so sad to see how much hate is on all sides even within groups.
I find it very confusing that so much of our understanding of how relationships work is based upon a power dynamic. "Someone has to be in charge."
I'm in a very, very traditional kind of relationship, down to our gender roles, but no one is "in charge" here. We have equal say and equal power.
I feel like the "opposites attract" theory, which involves tops and bottoms and all of that, shows that each partner in a relationship brings their own strengths and weaknesses to the table, so each partner plays to their strengths. Which kind of refutes the idea that someone must be in charge.
I agree, but I think that only works when there's communication involved! Not just assuming certain roles automatically because that's what "you're supposed to do."
@@chloemarie5173 yes exactly. I just find it really odd that there seems to be this weird subliminal consensus (at least among people who swear that gender is oh so important) that there's some power structure to romantic relationships.
That's awesome, but I would disagree that your relationship is so extremely traditional. It seems like a healthy one from what you've said here. But "traditional" would demand that the man be very controlling and so on.
@@Myke_thehuman I don't necessarily agree that in traditional relationships the man is controlling.
When I said my relationship is traditional, I meant that we each very much carry the roles that have traditionally been assigned, in that he provides, while I stay at home and take care of the house. We each are very comfortable with what we "bring to the table" if that makes sense.
I said I don't agree that traditionally men were very controlling partly because I've been in abusive relationships where the man was very controlling, and I think that should be its own seperate discourse. A traditional relationship can be a healthy relationship. But an abusive relationship - regardless of whether it's traditional or not - will always involve a power structure.
@@justhearmeout3959 well I just am confused why call your relationship traditional? It's a straight relationship, but I'm not sure why you like the term traditional. People aren't redefining relationships and gender roles for no reason. The traditional setup very very often leads to abuse. That seems to be it's purpose otherwise why is it designed to promote that?
So this couple is a fem straight man and a masc straight women and people are freaking out about them because there world is too small
Edit: I don't follow this couple so idk anything about them did not not know one of them is queer am Queer and idc so stop fighting over the meaning of bisexual,bi people deal with enough shit alerdy P.S I think there really cute and look in love 💕
I think i remember them saying one or both of them are bisexual though
@@yimyum2303and you understand what bisexual means? They can be attracted to two
Bi = two
@BigHead yes.... I'm bisexual myself
@@bighead4564 nope that's the wrong definition
@human_collector I mean.. "bi" does mean two but being bisexual doesn't mean you can't be attracted to more than two genders. Is that what you're saying? If so I agree
As a straight (TM) woman, I don’t see myself as particularly feminine or masculine, and the men I’ve been attracted to have not always been “masculine” (TM) men. And I have no desire for traditional roles. This couple gives me hope that straight relationships will become more fluid, that presentation among straight people will be able to become more fluid. I think there’s this idea even among woke straights that gender non-conformity is cool but only really fit queer people. It’s thought that a straight man being more feminine or a straight woman being masculine is not going to find a partner with a straight of the other gender. Idk. Just weird. I feel like straight relationships are still way more confined than they need to be.
I've always preferred appearing more masculine and people have been trying to tell me since I was a child that I was not straight. To the point I thought maybe it's true and was very open to it as a teenager but it just didn't seem to work out that way. Women choosing to be masculine is definitely way more accepted than men choosing to be feminine though, because as a society we still think being feminine makes you lesser. How we choose to express ourselves does not equal our sexuality, and some people have a hard time with that
I agree 100% that men choosing to be feminine is far less accepted precisely because women are considered lesser. Legally, we have gender equality in Western society, but culturally, our society HATES women.
I grew up differently if a person was even slightly different from the " norm" then u would be treated as less then human thats about race sexuality being able bodied or not etc the funny thing is i barely had friends because people cant tell my race and gender and they assumend that i was attracted to them while i physically cant fake smile and have a resting bitch face even funnier people will call anything a lesbian i am male and was called a dyke girls hated me because they had this weird idea that a hairy dude is a lesbian
To be fair, they're still confusing the internet because for every person confused by the couple, there's even more people confused as to why those people are confused. We're all just confused about different things
I already had a headache 😂
LOL
This comment gave me multiple headaches 💀
they are so cute! i have to hope some of the confused people have had their minds expanded and realized the con of this whole gender script system.
when I was a small baby tween, there was a manga that starred a couple similar to this one. a tall, more masculine presenting girl meets a very effeminate delicate guy and they fall in love. It wasn't the genderqueer message of allowing themselves to present against their scripts. something that it was, instead, an exploration of what gender is that I needed. It helped me realize more about my own. seeing that there are people who are breaking down those preconceived ideas just being themselves ....it's got me in my feelings😭✨💖 destroy cisheteronormativity
yo drop the name? 👀
@@linussextips1 "Ai Ore! Love Me!"
You know who's not confused: the couple who is into each other. Attraction is a mysterious and wonderful thing. At certain points in my life I've marveled at where my attractions have taken me when I allow myself to be receptive to them (consensually, to be clear). Life is hard enough, let people take comfort in companionship and love.
Something that I think is missing in the video: we have to realize that since birth we have been told that heteronormativity is the best and the ideal relationship is masculine man and feminine woman. Once we grow up, we realize that *gasp* GAY PEOPLE EXIST! And since that completely destroys our view of the world, we push these roles onto them. That’s when you get the stereotypical yaoi “ultra feminine boy” x “hyper masculine guy” (and there’s a reason I said boy and guy…) In this case the boy takes the role of the “woman” and the guy takes the role of the “man” and the problem in our world view is fixed with some duct tape of putting people into boxes. But at the end of the day, we put wlw and mlm people into these boxes of heterosexuality because we are convinced that all heterosexual relationships are the same. So once on of these heteros ACTUALLY dares to step into this view that we made out of pennies and dreams of what gay people are, our entire world view collapses, because we realize that the boxes that we made for these people are drawn onto a piece of paper and don’t actually exist. People are shocked because they are slowly realizing that what they thought was true, was actually just made up by some people who wanna stay in power at all cost.
On a completely unrelated note, I urge everyone to listen to the ‘Mothership’ Podcast and ESPECIALLY the episodes which have Khadija in it because they are hilarious.
Hahaha thank you 💕
Ohhh will do!!!
i 2nd this!!
khadija's levels of intelligent, warm, & hilarious, all at once, are unmatched. i'll listen to anything they're on.
On it!
And thank you 🌈💖
I do!! I do!!
This reminds me of the time when I was 12 and my openly bisexual Aunt told me that I wasn’t gay and just needed to find a masculine woman. And I was like listen sis, I like outties.
Her audacity 💀
Who is she to choose for you. The only person who has any right to an opinion on your love life is you.
This happened to me too but in reverse I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve been told as a lesbian to just date a feminine man. like it doesn’t work like that.
neurodivergent gets script.... "yeah this is too long I'm not reading all that" "is this supposed to have a plot? I don't get it"
I remember this straight man on Instagram who presents heavily masc but he wears high heels and skirts and he's honestly great because defining gender by apparel and superficial appearance is dumb.
The person you are referring to is Mark Bryan. Recently he was interviewed by someone from Queer eye Germany who is a big fan of him and he replied :
"I try to separate myself from the [LGBTIQ+] community because of the gay community that wore skirts and high heels before I did,"
"I feel like actually they made it worse for me, being straight, because now I’m assumed to be gay."
"I don’t really think that I’m fighting with you, but I’m not fighting against you, either,"
"I think they’ve made it difficult for themselves by just being more flamboyant. I think they’re too outrageous and too flamboyant,"
He has since then put a (bad) apology video in his IG highlights. And makes it a point to have "straight" in his bio.
@@potato5602 Wow, that's a crazy statement. Even more knowing that it was the community who defended him when other people were attacking his gender expression. Welp, nice to know were he stands.
@@potato5602 I hope he changes his tune eventually. there is no need to feel threatened by queer folk like THEYRE the reason he is receiving hate from people based on stereotypes pushed by cishets. he should be able to feel comfortable in his identity and not have it be challenged because of how he chooses to present, but the fact that he is does not mean that the lgbtq, who receive much of the same flak, is to blame.
I would be SO interested to see someone research into how outlooks on gender/sexuality overlap with neurodiversity. Virtually every neurodiverse person I've known is very open-minded and quick to accept differences in others (which is ironic given our reputation for rigid thought patterns and aversion to change!) My personal half-baked theory is: because our default is not instinctively understanding another person when we meet them, we aren't really thrown off when someone doesn't follow the "standard script". Heck, we barely understand that script in the first place. There's nothing inherently more weird to me about "I'm a straight man who wears heels" than there is about "I'm a stay at home mum who watches football" - those things are all alien to me, but I'm used to saying "oh okay" and accepting the latter, why would the former be any different? I wonder if others on the spectrum have a similar view?
yup! i think that since it can take a more conscious effort on our part to learn social norms, we’re able to recognize its absurdity. i think its also easier for us to realize that we dont really fit it to the molds given to us for the same reason
I'm autistic and have ADHD (I'm a girl). My bf has a very "feminine energy" and people thought he was gay for soooo long that he used to question his sexual orientation a lot. And I have a "very masculine side" so my mom thought I was lesbian for a very long time (but I'm bi, she doesn't know it though cause she's very religious). I've never seen gender roles like other people and other autistic people I know are also the same way. (I've written "feminine/masculine side" in quotation marks on purpose cause that's how society sees it). My personal theory that also agrees with yours: *Some of us* also know that high heels, make up, football, cars and everything aren't gendered, cause the society chooses what's considered feminine or masculine, just like high heels were a men's thing a long time ago. So basically I totally agree with you.
I saw a comment recently about how neurotypicals are just as likely to have social misunderstandings as we are, they are just more confident that they aren't wrong. The way I was nodding at my phone as I read it! lol
The difference, in my opinion, is that we have been raised to know we "mess things up" and thus are more used to having things explained and NT people more often like only children or "stupid people" need things explained so they are more likely feel patronized by having a concept they don't understand explained to them.
I think we're also just used to being the "weirdos" so when someone's a stay at home mom that love football, it's not strange to us at all. I spent most of my time playing pet shop as a kid just setting the shop up and sorting everything before getting bored and doing something else but man I loved playing petshop despite not really playing it. It's hard to expect people to be "normal" when I have no understanding on (nor interest in) what "normal" even is. I think people all should have their weird hobbies and not care about the weird hobbies of others if it bugs them 🤷🏻♀️ To me, it's abnormal how hung up full grown adults can be about that kinda thing!
This tracks in my experience as well
I believe there is already research out there about that. I would say to use google scholar to look it up if you’d like.
But damn, even in a straight relationship, you still get the weird sexual questions🤣
The Black queer community is so fn awesome, glad to be a part of it. I’m glad that people get to enjoy their lives to the fullest and love people who love them back. Awesome commentary.
Seeing this couple gave me that push to completely disregard my "criteria" of acceptable inclusion. I realized I wasn't confused it was my first encounter with a dynamic like that, I do myself a justice educating myself about it. This can be broken down to two people loving each other and that's it, that is all we need to understand.
🙌🏻 Love to see it!
And honestly this is becoming more common in South Africa with our free laws and being more accepting of different expressions, especially online.
👏🏾👏🏾
I kind of love that they are cis, straight, and flipped the script. If anything, it's hot. And because it makes me feel less alone. I am cis, and I am bi-ish (like 90% attraction to cis men, 10% to everyone else). My gender presentation is fluid. On the surface, I appear to fit the script, but I don't. I know lots of lgtbqia who present as overtly queer, but not so many of cis and straight people. And it's nice to see that happen for a change.
Not just attraction to men? Cis men specifically?
@@RhomboMus Unfortunately, I really like dick and only rarely find pussy appealing. (I am also squeamish about certain textures, which complicates things.) I have found trans men attractive, it's just not that common. (Thus the 10%.)
@@RhomboMus cis men are just the best stop crying lol
strange to say “cis men” and not just “men”. seems like you see trans men as less than cis men.
@eternallustformedusa4844 It's not a rarity for trans men to flip the script, or mess with gender expectations. Cis men, on the other hand, tend to have a long way to go on being okay with gender being more fluid, etc. My comment is focused on: Oh, look, some of them are catching on! How nice!
One thing that has always annoyed me is how people will assume someone is gay simply because of their voice or clothing. Just because someone has a higher pitched voice or wears more masculine clothing doesn't mean they're gay.
This couple is literally part of the future we’re fighting for - let men and women express themselves in whatever style we choose, and behave in whatever roles we feel best and most comfortable in. Whether it’s masculine, feminine or both. Regardless of what sex you are, or sexual orientation.
im agender and although i was raised as a woman, i still dont really get gender, so a relationship like this makes me so happy because it doesnt follow these "scripts" that i dont understand
I never got it either. My mum is a very masc presenting person. She later came out as a lesbian, and with her I was surrounded by people who didn't fit the gender norm. It's not difficult to understand
"this world is ashy so do what you want" okay im gonna live with these words forever
Honestly, all I want to know is how they'd each dress when attending a formal event, e.g. a wedding. Would she wear a suit? Would he rock a dress? I want to see! What a wonderful couple!
Since I told my best friend I am nonbinary two years ago. She has done a lot of research on how to support me and learn about other nonbinary or gender non-conforming people. She recently told me that learning about all of it has helped her be more confident and comfortable with herself as a cis woman. I honestly have a lot of internalized gender issues myself that I'm working through and her being so confident and supportive has helped me be more comfortable with myself. People like you and my friend make me feel a lot more safe to be myself.
Not the main part of the video but you’re so right people are so weird about femme presenting nb people 😭 idk when masculinity = androgyny 🤡 and it’s so weird to try to make a binary version of nb like there’s not a right way or wrong way to be nb there’s just your own unique relationship with gender. I’m sure you don’t take requests but I would be fascinated to see your thoughts about neo pronouns and Xenogenders (as someone who goes by xe/xem). Great video!! I hope you have a fantastic day!! (Your outfit is sooo cute btw)
THANK YOU
It's especially strange when fellow queer people act like someone's "faking their gender" if they're AFAB enby and not "androgynous enough." Even if I cared, I don't always feel safe being visibly queer (I say that I keep one in the closet in case I need to jump in) but sure, I'm in my mid30s pretending to be nonbinary on the Inter while wearing makeup for 'reasons' 🙄 If anyone should understand, you'd think the community would but it's just not always the case smh. Good thing I'm getting to old and exhausted to care ig 😂
Side note in regards to xenogenders- my main pronouns are they/them but I think gendercryptic is the most accurate description of my gender I have ever come across. I still consider myself non-binary/genderqueer, but gendercryptid is the most specific way to explain it. I love that we're getting to the point of just accepting our genders' vibes regardless of how understood they are. If someone says they don't understand it, they can get in line but I'm in front 😂 I just don't care if I understand it, I accept it and that's what matters 😊
I'm a afab nb and present fairly neutral but mostly more feminine. I guess I don't exist. 🤷🏻♀️
Hearing Khadijah talk about gender feels like a warm soft blanket of understanding being wrapped around me. Thanks for creating the content that you do❤
They’re a bisexual dream. I love both of them ❤ it’s so great they found each other 🥰 Fuck the haters, y’all rule!!!
The sad thing is that I only know about this couple because Twitter was yelling about straight women "appropriating" butch aesthetics. This app is really always looking for things to be angry about.
Let 👏 people 👏 enjoy 👏 things.
Also Maren is bi and mostly dated women…
@@KhadijaMbowe Biphobia is HUGE in sapphic communities
I really wish we lived in a world where all love was celebrated.
Your username with this comment 💕
Let's keep working towards that, no matter how far off it seems.
I interact with people as people and touch them like they have bodies instead of male or female bodies and I’ve found many men love being “touched like a woman” from the very fem men to very masc men. It baffles me that there’s another way but it’s generally an awakening for those I date to feel more comfortable with their bodies outside of what they’ve been told is “the right touch”
It's literally a woman not wearing makeup and a man wearing makeup (by their own ID). If you're confused, that's on you 😂
Edit: I just looked at a pic of me and my partner and I understand why this was so easy for me now
I feel like part of the reason for such curiosity in their intimacy and sexual dynamics comes from the belief that our social gendered categories and scripts are "natural", a product of biology. Like that the dominant behavior in men is a product of the act of penetration, and therefore inherent to having an "outie'. Not very creative!!! When it comes to expanding our imagination in that domain, I have to say I learned so much from bi/lesbian women openly discussing their relationship and sexual lives. Top/bottom, dom/sub, butch/femme, giver/receiver... they are all still binaries (which can help an initial understanding), but the way they can combine is so fascinating! God bless them!!
loved this comment!
I'm baffled to find that I've never thought about how I would present or be if I were born male. When you said you'd be like Jay, I had to pause and wonder if it would be the same for me. So much of who I am was shaped by being placed in the box of womanhood from birth, and I can't really fathom the personality differences I'd have, without the baggage of being AFAB. I've envied and identified with men before realizing I was nonbinary, a lot of who I am and my presentation was created out out of rebellion, and I really can't imagine who I'd be and how I'd feel about other people if the situation were reversed.
I often wonder if I'd be the flamboyant bisexual skirt and bright color wearing big bearded long haired peace love hippy dude I am today if I really religious Christian mom didn't die when I was young and was still here to dictate how I was "supposed" to be.
same
I've said I'd be a femme fuckboy if I had been born a cisguy but it's mostly in jest. You are so right - growing up AFAB comes with specific experiences due to the fact that society still operates under the concept of binary gender. It wasn't rebellion for me, but maybe if I were AMAB it would've been. I don't know, I haven't lived that experience so there's no understanding of how I'd respond in that context.
My bf (cisman, though not hung up on gender) was initially a bit lost when it comes to me identifying with women and the way I explained it was that due to being raised as a girl there are circumstances where I'm "one of the girls" but still not a girl.
Omg, your comment just hit the nail on the head of my experience. I also sometimes wonder would I still be non binary if I was AMAB. I've always been told that I was "different & not as feminine as other girls", which did raise some rebellion from me. I was lucky that my family didn't impose too much on me but there's definitely some vibe of "not mad just disappointed" from my mom & aunt XD.
But I have to say, thanks to that & a little bit of me being neurodivergence, I always think of myself as agender (I always feel weird & out of place when I say I'm a girl/woman) so I think there's a very high chance of me still identifying as enby even if I was AMAB IDK.
Same. Most of my life and beliefs were shaped by my dad, and I'm not sure he would be as open minded about women if I wasn't born a girl. Typically, men gain a new point of view on women once they themselves have daughters, because they can't imagine their daughter being told to be submissive or told they are "weak" or "inferior". So, even though I'm a woman who enjoys hunting AND candle making, who likes absolutely stunning ballroom gowns AND intricate swords and armor sets, who enjoys reading for hours and playing elder scrolls online for hours; I might have just ended up being fully masculine because my dad wouldn't have had that open mind he does now and might have raised me to just repress my femininity and put on a macho persona. Maybe. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit for the person my dad is, and how his behavior towards gender has influenced me.
I'm a gnc/Masc woman in a relationship pretty much exactly like this with my adorable femboy boyfriend. I've always been a top and loved femininity, and he's attracted to who I am. Without anyone else's understanding we will always be happily in love. I'm happy to see others openly living their happy relationship in this extremely gendered world.
Being a bisexual transgender man seen as GNC pre and post-transition, a couple like this brings me joy ✨
I was handed the man script, but then I got cut from the part because I wasn't convincing, but then I never got my feminine script in the mail so I guess I'm just not in the movie anymore. sigh*
Write your own script!!!!
Omg I’m so happy you’re talking about them. I really enjoyed learning about their relationship. Especially because the woman said that she was initially lesbian but kind of changed that to being attracted to fend because she found him attractive, and then he said he was straight 🤯. I love everything about their relationship 😂, and I wished we lived in a more inclusive society so we could have a chance to see what people do with no restrictions on their gender identity or sexuality.
They’re just a couple of cuties doing their own thing, and being happy together 💁♀️
I’m glad they found each other 🫶
I think one of the reasons i never worried about my gender is how I was raised. I never felt like just bc i was a girl i had to fit in any certain categories. Like if i were born a boy i think i would be fine with that as well. My gender was never an important factor in my life and i am very lucky for that. I was never forced to fit into the box of "woman" so I've just been comfortable being me.
I'm happy for younger people especially who are unafraid to be themselves. I wasn't, I was afraid to lose my job and my independence, and I bowed to that weight until it about broke me. I hope they continue to be happy
I mean, I wanna know what's going on in their relationship because they're adorable 😅 It's not confusing tho; plenty of femboys like women, masc & femme. I find femininity attractive, including feminine guys. They're kinda my fav.
They have a YT channel :3
@@myasmith1820 what the channel name pls
@@olavictor4824 in the description you can see links to their videos ❤️
I recently finished the book Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine, which is a book about criticizing the reproduction of sexist stereotypes through neuroscience, and I highly recommend it for this conversation! She goes into a lot of detail about flawed studies and misrepresented results, but I found the last section of the book about gender-neutral parenting the most interesting part. Gender stereotypes are so pervasive in how we raise children it really blew my mind to have it all being laid out the way Cordelia Fine wrote it.
As a nonbinary person with gender fluid presentation and quite masculine energy, I have to say I think my relaxed approach to gender was very comforting to my partner (man soft masculinity). He is manly like a 19th century poet, smart and charming, strong but not "grrrr I'm a man". In our relationship, because gender is sidelined, we can just love each other, beyond it. I think people should try to look at their person beyond gender, because that will bring real acceptance in their life🙌
'manly like a 19th century poet' I love that haha
If anyone needs an example of how gender expression can be distinct from gender and sexuality...
Seems like a couple who would get along with my group of friends.
"The world is ashy" - Khadija.
i remember telling my mom as a kid i wanted a boy who also liked makeup and dresses (cuz thats what i like!) and she laughed and said that would never happen. i didn't know at the time but she obvi was alluding to all fem presenting men being gay. im so happy that isnt true and im finally seeing some of this representation i wanted to see as a kid.
It's so weird to me how this has caused people to completely forget that privacy is a thing, the prying is so bizarre. They're happy, they're consenting, what's the big deal? Appreciate how you tackled this topic as always
Unless they have asked you to join them in the bedroom, it's none of your business how they do anything.