I try to exercise kind of a multidimensional aesthetic preference. There's moments when i just want to be taken by beautifully interpreted melodies. And that's where's Camel, Pink Floyd, Marillion, Beatles and others come in. There's moments when i want some kind of a spiritual experience with music. That's when Magma comes in (or Phaorah Sanders, Coltrane or others jazz counterparts). There's moments for darkness, with Van der Graaf, mid period King Crimson, early Tangerine Dream etc. And there's moments where i just want to be blown away and excited by sheer virtuosity and unpredictability. Thats when i go to Zappa, Holdsworth, Gentle Giant or more extremes of avant garde. If i can tick all the aesthetic boxes at the same time great! But thats not always possible haha.
This was highly entertaining and great to see you guys do a video together. I mostly could appreciate where you guys where coming from with the bands mentioned, although I really like some. Hope you guys do another one sometime!
Loved this video. Except for that bit about soft machine, I agreed with a lot of what was said. No surprise. Notes was great. This guy knows his shit. As much as people love seeing you bashing the bands you don't connect with, you spinned it into a discussion about new good bands. The whole conversation was super fun and even made me think about going to listen to some of the albums discussed here. And I'm always a sucker for VDGG. What an awesome band. I'm always up for protecting their name....LOL. Thanks Andy.
One of my favorite band which I think should get more love. I think a lot of people mess up with VDGG thinking their early 70s trilogy is best represnting them. However, it's their 2nd trilogy of Godbluff, Still Slife and World Record which is really where they peaked. And from that trilogy, it's Still Life that keeps to amaze me and make me really go nuts. It's an album I really care about. Every song is just to die for.
weird, I compare Soft Machine's "Third" more to Bitches Brew and think it DOES go somewhere and think Bitches Brew is just aimless noodling. Don't hear Weasels Ripped My Flesh at all. Maybe a little Hot Rats.
I agree completely, Michael. And, although I find nice moments to Mahavishnu, RTF, Herbie Hancock, I have only found most of the Miles Davis offshoots only moderately interesting at best.
I've mentioned this before on Patreon but I remember seeing Genesis in support of Vandergraph, as genesis began to play the auditorium began to fill as most people in the bar could hear the music and left to come watch, when Vandergraph came on as headliners a lot of people left and went back to the bar, I too struggle with Vandergraph but became a lifelong Genesis follower from then on.
You sure upset me with Soft Machine! :) No, but seriously... I love Third ... but I think what you really need to hear is all those live recordings from 1969 to 1970 (e.g., "Facelift (France and Holland)"). They had this darkness, in their keyboards and bass, that other bands lacked.
And someone like Robert Wyatt had a lot more chops than the first Mothers drummer Jimmy Carl Black. And the first Soft Machine album was much more than just pop with some psychedelics. Even Zappa's Freak out sounded tame compared to SM's So Boot if at all/ Why am I so short / A certain kind....probably the most experimental out there avant rock ever recorded up until that moment.
I just wanted to add that Klaus Schulze didn't do so much with Tangerine Dream, he just was on their first album. His contribution to Ash Ra Tempel's first and third album are even more significant than his work with TD.
I never thought of krautrock as prog either. It's mostly experimental/avantgarde rock. Compare the difference to an avant-prog band like Henry Cow who use some similar techniques but are ultimately more composed and constructed. Kraut is mostly about deconstruction, textures, noise.
I hadn't heard those other acts either. I thought Soft Machine's Bundles was brilliant. Softs was great too. And Klaus Shultz on Stomu Yamashta's Go! was excellent.
The latest lineup of Tangerine Dream (there's never been just one lineup) are currently touring North America (IMHO this is the best lineup in decades): NORTH AMERICAN TOUR September 8 - Miami Beach Bandshell, Miami/USA with special guest ‘Night Foundation’ (Richard Vergez) + ‘Little Annie’ September 11 - The Orange Peel, Asheville/USA September 12 - Centre Stage, Atlanta/USA September 13 - Ferris Wheelers, Dallas/USA with special guest ‘Black Taffy’ September 14 - The Mohawk, Austin/USA with special guest ‘More Eaze’ (Mari Maurice) September 16 - El Ray, Albuquerque/USA September 17- Rialto Theatre, Tucson/USA with special session guest ‘Steve Roach’ September 18 - Magnolia, El Cajon/USA with special session guest ‘Steve Roach’ September 19 - The Vermont, Los Angeles/USA September 20 - Regency Ballroom, San Francisco/USA with special session guest ‘Robert Rich’ September 22 - Revolution Hall, Portland/USA September 24 - Rickshaw Theatre, Vancouver/Canada September 25 - The Neptune, Seattle/USA September 27 - Keswick Theatre, Glenside, Pennsylvania/USA September 29 - Lincoln Theatre, Washington/USA with special guest ‘Insect Factory’ (Jeff Barsky) September 30 - Knockdown Centre, New York/USA with special guests ‘Xeno & Oaklander’ (DJ Set) October 1 - Olympia - Pop Montreal, Montreal/Canada with special guest ‘Invités’ October 3 - Opera House, Toronto/Canada with special session guest ‘John Kameel Farah’ October 5 - Metro, Chicago/USA GERMAN TOUR October 10 Gewandhaus, Großer Saal, Leipzig/Germany October 12 Rheingoldhalle, Mainz/Germany October 14 Lokschuppen, Bielefeld/Germany October 16 Theater am Aegi, Hannover/Germany October 17 Metropol Theater, Bremen/Germany October 18 Admiralspalast, Berlin/Germany October 20 Tollhaus, Karlsruhe/Germany October 21 Neue Gebläsehalle, Neunkirchen/Saar/Germany October 22 Osnabrückhalle, Europa Saal, Osnabrück/Germany October 24 Lichtburg, Essen/Germany October 25 Theaterhaus am Pragsattel, Stuttgart/Germany October 26 Hamburg, Laeiszhalle, Großer Saal, Hamburg/Germany October 28 Isarphilharmonie, München/Germany UK TOUR November 5 De La Warr Pavilion, Bexhill/England November 6 Guildhall, Portsmouth/England November 7 Princess Pavilion, Falmouth/England November 8 Palladium, London/England November 9 Brudenell Social Club, Leeds/England November 10 Albert Hall, Manchester/England November 11 HH Prog Festival, Great Yarmouth/England Sold-Out November 12 Boiler Shop, Newcastle/England November 13 St Luke’s & The Winged Ox, Glasgow/Scotland November 14 The Queen's Hall, Edinburgh/Scotland with special guest ‘Ali Ferguson’
Loved this discussion. I couldn't agree more about bands like Soft Machine and Camel. Just listened to the Avenged Seven Fold album you guys were raving about. Yep, it's great. I don't recall that you mentioned Queen as one of their influences, but I hear Queen everywhere in this album, especially in its diversity. There was even a place where it sounded like Brian May on guitar.
Some of the problems appreciating some of these artists might be that there's a big experience gap between working your way through a back catalogue and being there and listening to the albums when they're getting released (I'm old 😄).
Very true. Ploughing through a discography on Spotify isn't the same. No anticipation. No bedding an album in because you can just dial in something different the instant you dislike a track.
I've often thought that I'd have a much higher opinion of Camel's _"Snow Goose"_ if I had heard it when it was released (1975). But I didn't come across Camel until _"Stationary Traveller"_ was released (1984), and then I worked my way backwards in their catalog. By the time I heard _"Snow Goose"_ it seemed fine, but I didn't feel it was particularly great.
trying to figure out whose done what maudlin of the Well has done, and better since? Time of Orchids? Subterranean Masquerade? unExpect? and I don't count Kayo Dot per the Metal role (or lack of) in their music is much different. There's some Post Metal that uses similar instrumentation, but not identical, and don't think nearly as well.
Magma are a band you have to see live to experience the sheer power and dynamics. I was totally blown away when I saw them at the Cadogan hall in London!
I'm "not a fan", but there's a certain old live concert video/movie from "back in the day" that... well, it's great! I can't remember when or what. I think I have it on a hard drive somewhere. Need to watch again.
I was really disappointed, as I find Soft Machine covered combined area of early Zappa and all of King Crimson's development by 1977, I think the lack of a guitar soloist may deaden people to Soft Machine's impact (and the compositional variety did tend to lessen after Soft Machine Six), but they had one of the best rhythm sections in fusion; the most unique soloists in fusion, and especially on Volume 2, and Third-Fifth, and incredible array of compositional styles, especially from Wyatt, Hopper, Ratledge, Dean and Jenkins. I don't think of them at all as the English Mothers, but as a pioneer in the fusion world, using outstanding and imaginative musicianship...and among the first to utilize minimalism as a compositional tool. It helped that I was so sick of guitarists by 1970 that I just latched in to Soft Machine as my first group inspiration and also loved their avant garde connections. They were pretty amazing! Again, I realize there are differences of opinion and I respect that. I think a key difference between perspectives is that you fellows seem to fail to connect with things that are loosely knit. I tend to enjoy things that have an element of chaos in them. The borderline between order and chaos fascinates me. Hence, I had little patience for MO after a few listens and more love for SM as an ensemble. I also never thought of SM as just another fusion ensemble even when the band was made up of mostly Nucleus members. They had a very distinctive compositional style. (My favorite VDGG album is Pawn Hearts, because it teeters on the edge so much, Miles seems to be reticent about going too out of control...so he meanders a great deal to me. Just my very lengthy thoughts (Oh and Henry Cow's improvs are very static to me. I like them, but I find little tension in their improvised work, which I miss.) I think I need to copy Andy and have my own channel on music. I tend towards the freer side of things and although I like some tight bands, I love the ones who aren't afraid to lose control at times. Schulze deserved better too. Whenever I listen to TD I feel like I am listening to a soundtrack, especially after Sorcerer. With Klaus, although I don't like him all the time, I hear experimentation. But I also enjoy John Cage's Cartridge Music!
Agreed to nearly all of this... though I wasn't really disappointed by SF's inclusion -- I can see some people may not like it. I may add that Mike Ratledge is one of the most unique keyboard players, who sounded amazing as a replacement of a guitar player (and much 'darker' -- to use one of Andy's expressions -- than Keith Emerson, for example), and a tremendous composer. By the way, I actually think that Henry Cow could be included in a list like this.... though, again, some may argue it's not really prog.
Gary, I agree with everything you said. And he said it very well. There’s an element of looseness and soft machine that’s different from so many of the other bands. Yet they still have direction in the songs. I love the term fusion and I typically use the terms fusion and jazz rock interchangeably. But when it comes to soft machines middle. I tend to view that as jazz rock maybe because without the guitar it doesn’t have as much of that electric fusion sound that we associate with the term period bundles is definitely a fusion album to my ears. And third and almost 4th are absolute masterpieces. I could come up with 30 other bands that deserve to be on this list before soft machine. I was always raised to think of the Prog big six as Genesis Pink Floyd, king crimson yes ELP and soft machine as the big six of Prog
Just one additional comment and a general statement about critics in general; and what happened in prog, fusion and jazz in general. (If you have to label Henry Cow at all, it would be Progressive. Their first album was closer to the Mothers than anything that SM did, although SM Vol. 1 does have a quote from Absolutely Free and Zappa and the Mothers were both initially produced by Tom Wilson, but Wyatt didn't have many kind words for Wilson as a producer). As a matter of fact, the first HC album reminded me of a direction the Mothers could have entered after Uncle Meat. (I am incredibly disappointed that Hatfield and the North and National Health are almost never mentioned as fusion influencers. Just great albums and players.) I also think Emerson and Brian Auger were convinced replacements for lead guitarists. The guitar was ubiquitous, but you also had groups like Egg, Back Door, and Etron Fou Leloublan who functioned quite well without a lead guitarist. But, I think history and the bias of critics (especially people who came to this music after it was developed) is a large component of some of the perspectives I am seeing. I am 70 and grew up when these bands and players were emerging. I never heard a rock groups blend free jazz and rock as well as Soft Machine (that includes the Mothers, who I loved). Zappa solidified his fan base with One Size Fits All-great album, but less daring and less chaotic than his earlier stuff. (Live, he was still extraordinary of course). KC released two albums that I didn't appreciate until years after they were released (Lizard sounded like free jazz, but very shambolic). I ran across Soft Machine, Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, John Cage at roughly the same time. So the barriers between music were not as categorized as they seem to be now. I think Prog and Fusion started to decline when they formularized themselves. And they started repeating (I can remember one of the main criticisms of MO being that the second album was pretty much the same formula as the first, which I found basically true.) Everyone repeats, but it was very obvious with MO and King Crimson in certain albums. But it was still great stuff. But creating a stable system is not really progressive. The landing points issue sounds like a desire for a hook, which seems anti-progressive. Finally, and this was a problem I had as early as the 1970's; prog audiences seem to have a real need for control. For me, I hit a tipping point when I read a comparison of Sun Ra and Magma in Archie Patterson's Eurock Magazine. The author compared the two together and ranked Magma higher because they were better organized. I have seen both live, and both were legendary...but Ra covered so much more than Christian did. Ra could go anywhere. That set a pattern I could start to see. Progress, in general, crave predictability and the general moderation that mainstream critics love. Hence, I think I see Andy's problems with VDGG: by the way, Hugh Banton is a virtuoso keyboard player. He just isn't, as Bruford described Wakeman, an arpeggio King! I honestly don't understand why they have such a problem with the need for structure/coherence. I found it interesting that none of Andy's best jazz albums were truly free jazz albums and he thought Peter Brotzmann's Machine Gun was just intended to shock. It represents, to me, a profound misunderstanding o 49:10 f free music. Maybe I have it wrong, but I think there is a need for comfort that I think compromises them a bit. I have my limits too, but I love music that stretches my ears and defies my expectations. Kudos to Andy for mentioning the John Lydon album, btw. I agree punk was ridiculous, but Lydon isn't. Andy did mention a group of bands that were spinoffs or directly influenced by the Software and one thing I noticed was that they all had prominent guitarists. VDGG doesn't have a dominant guitar as well. I don't know, but I have noticed a special place in hell being set aside for bands that don't have a smoking lead guitar; I don't think it's my imagination. Rock is incredibly guitar centric. Any band that does not have a guitar is suspect. Miles Davis doesn't have emotional peaks; John Coltrane does. But comparing SM to to Coltrane is ridiculous. They are functioning in different worlds, although some pieces on SM 4th and Side one of Fifth do enter the world of John Coltrane. I think they have well developed prejudices against SM based on false analogies with the Mothers.
I came back to this video because I wanted to follow up on something that’s been stuck in my head and that is Andy’s comparison from soft machine to the mothers. And then I see your very eloquent addendum to your original post, which I enjoyed very much and I think you do a really good job of teasing out what is happening with their lack of engagement with soft machine. For Andy, to say soft machines, third album is a poor man’s version of one of Frank Zappa‘s albums misses the mark. And I am a huge Frank Zappa fan probably a bigger, Zappa fan, soft machine. I have tons of his albums, but even though he plays in more sub genres than almost any musicians ever lived, he still frames even his solos in a direct controlled point moving forward. Where soft machine are more comfortable, and frankly innovators in solos and compositions and frameworks that are more aleatory, drifting and even meandering. I which intern can be every bit as enjoyable as Frank Zappa’s music, but coming from a different perspective.
@@garygomesvedicastrology Re: Henry Cow, being progressive. Could be, but their hardcore fans say they have their own category, 'Rock in Opposition'. I know more than a few of these fans...
GRADING VINYL: 4 RULES w/no PLUSES - This is based on PATRICK and other ARCHIVIST. 1. "I have to 'Archive this, Now!" ------> (can't be better than that!) 2. "Best Album I have to archive, till I find one better." ------> (still searching for a better copy) 3. "I don't know, I had to hear it!" ------> (it's a meaningful album and I miss it.) 4. "Are you CRAZY!?!?!? lol :)"" -----> (anyone buying this terrible copy is crazy) M.F. Gershowitz (1953-2023 or longer) ... enjoy a simple solution to grading records :)
I’m happy you guys didn’t ”connect” with Soft Machine, I feel the same way although I love most of the Canterbury scene! I don’t agree regarding Camel though. They are not super innovative or complex, but their first 4 albums are very enjoyable and have a very special vibe.
I always get a bad vibe from shows about, "what we DON'T like", but such discussions still seem to be interesting and also bring out what we DO like. Kudos to the mention of modern Australian Prog Metal. My favorite band in many years is SCOREDATURA (with an 'E' in the middle). To me, a stripped down (though virtuosic with great compositions) version of Modern Instrumental Prog Metal. Kind of a mix of modern with 70s hard rock, metal, and fusion. Eager to check out what Notes mentioned from Australia.
I agree with you about Camel not having "an edge" but I still like them especially the albums from Mirage to Raindances and at least they produced the sort of music I could play to my parents without them running screaming from the room covering their ears. For me VDGG were at the other end of the spectrum in terms of aural assault but I always loved those great primal riffs of theirs The other thing about VDGG is their lyrics were absolutely critical and the music reinforced the meaning of them. Pawn Hearts is probably their best album with Godbluff coming a close 2nd.I initially loved Marillion mainly because their music around the Misplaced Childhood period seemed to be similar to what Genesis might have developed in the 80's had they not gone down a different path.
Great discussion. I would agree with most of the bands mentioned although, like Notes, i think early Camel has a gentle charm. Hope you two can find time to have another chat!
You're so right about "Album" by PIL, one of the most overlooked LPs of the 80s - but I feel John Lydon's inspiration is more to be found in Damo Suzuki's voice (Can) than Peter Hammil's .. btw did you ever mention Can ?
@@garygomesvedicastrology I remember Lydon interviewed by the time PIL was making the "Metal Box" (1979) saying how Can was more exciting than most of the british prog bands - and I remember it very well because that's how I discovered this german band and later bought "Ege Bamyasi"... To me, PIL's repetitive music ("Albatross") as a lot more in common with Can’s obsessive rythmic patterns than with the narrative structures of prog compositions...
@@garygomesvedicastrologyFunnily enough, I've only just checked out a list of Lydon's 12 favourite albums, where he lists Tago Mago by Can as a favourite, but no Van Der Graaf
Bruno, He probably didn't mention Genesis either, or the Nice, but there was an interview in which he said he liked one Genesis song and loved what Keith Emerson did with daggers in the Nice when he and Emerson met. You can like attributes of a band without putting them on your favorite ten albums list. I really loved Can between 1973 and 1979, but I ultimately found them a bit repetitive for me personally. The only VDGG album I really enjoy is Pawn Hearts, mainly because it's their most adventurous and I was a free jazz fan as well as a progressive fan. Tastes are a personal thing and I don't base my own personal tastes on what people I like happen to like. I thought PIL was interesting, but not as interesting as, let's say, This Heat, for example. Can were Stockhausen students who saw the Velvet Underground and said we can do that better. It is a bit dismissive, I know, but that's kind of how I see them now. My view might change over time. The dis of Soft Machine in this exchange irritated me, but they are entitled to their opinions. I just think they are incredibly wrong in their assessments. Music doesn't have to have a conclusion, but if you don't hear levels of excitement in SM, you aren't listening.
@@Tacotac64Calling VDGG narrative is a bit of a stretch for me to be honest. Bottom line: John Lydon was pretty open minded. So were a lot of punks. I am not trying to establish a lineage of influence here. Influence can be what attracts or repels you, to be honest. I would do everything I personally could to avoid playing guitar like Neil Young, for instance, but I like a few of his ideas. We're products of our aesthetic environment.
i find it odd how prevalent the idea is that there's no point to the extremeness in maudlin of the Well, and I've heard this criticism of Kayo Dot as well. maybe the subject matter delves too esoteric and obscure, so it's hard to get immersed and see a point to it. granted, Bath and Leaving Your Body Map area all about secrecy and the occult, so i don't blame anyone for having experienced this.
By the way, the synthesizer analogy for poor Klaus is weird. It's like saying that I heard a certain technology (let's say a piano, or Hendrix on electric guitar and said, 0h, now I know what that is; therefore anything that uses that is passe). And analog synths are more valued now than they were for decades! You folks really need to keep up with recent developments! I realize this is an opinion, but I want better reasons or respect just diminishes precipitously.
Same here. RRHOF is mostly a joke, as most awards-based organizations are. They contribute nothing and simply are riding on the coattails of greatness so they can feel elite and hobnob with legends. I stopped caring about awards more than 20 years ago now.
Marillion were never that big here - I love them, but they were only popular with a niche audience. I missed seeing them in Charlotte in the 80s, but I did manage to see them in Pittsburgh on the Afraid of Sunlight tour.
Saw Marillion in their very early years at the start of the eighties when they played clubs and small theatres, I never got into them tbh but my mate bought all their records up to when Fish left.
Thank you Andy that you introduced me IQ. Simply incredible band. Can you recommend other great bands worth to check out? Btw I like Marillion. They have some good stuff.
Amazing Andy. If I would make a list of well regarded prog bands that I never connected to, it would be about the same. Including Dream Theater, Camel, Marillion.
Loved you 2 guys chatting away, fascinating . I am actually subscribed to both of you but the first time I've seen you together. In fact the funniest video I've ever seen on you tube was Notes review of ELPs Love Beach , hilarious. In fact I've probably seen you Andy if you were drumming with Frost, a double header with It Bites probably about 15 years ago now .
One of the great American prog bands for me who approached metal at times were Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. They were out of Oakland and were one of a kind. Very dark at times, even satanic in a William Blake kind of way (if that makes sense), at other times very uplifting. They were a strange bunch and unique. They really don't sound like anyone else.
AGREED! So underratted. Two groups that sound a bit like them (Cuz they Have the same singer / guitar player ) are Idoit Flesh and Free Salamander Exbit.
Thanks for a stimulating discussion. Yes, Klaus is a bit of a noodler but I like his 70s albums. Tangerine Dream of the 70s tend to be more tightly structured and a lot less vacuous noodling. I saw TD twice in the 70s and hearing those pulsating rhythms fill a concert hall was something special. VdGG are my favourite prog band but I can understand why some people find them tedious. PH's voice and lyrics are a major factor in their compositions but they're not for the casual listener. IMO, PH is the most intelligent and subtle prog lyricist. Airy-fairy, twee and whimsical is certainly not PH.
I'm typically very closely with Andy when it comes to likes and dislikes. I checked out Maudlin of the Well and I really like what I hear. I'm curious if Andy is with me on this one or not.
Indeed, hate is a bit too strong a word. Notes had some more obscure choices but I'd agreed with the one with which I am familiar. Thanks. I will check out his channel. Well as far as your choices, Andy, nearly 5 for 5 with me but I'm a bit softer on Soft Machine. This band too, so recommended... I so wanted to like more but didn't fully connect with, but come on! Let's not too quickly dismiss Bundles (though admittedly, Holdsworth makes everything better). Also their great song Memories! Sure, the version of Hopper''s song on Daevid Allen's Banana Moon is still my favorite but I've heard you give some love to Material's Whitney Houston version. As to prog bands I didn't connect with... one I've never heard you mention so not sure you've heard of them...Go! Stomu Yamashta's Go... a supergroup I SO wanted to like. Yamashta's a Japanese percussionist, keyboard player and composer. In the band: Klaus Shultz (um, ok... so maybe we've discussed his solo album problems), Steve Winwood! Michael Shrieve! Al DiMeola! I had such high expectations and just did not connect.
Andy- think of VDGG as a dark gothic Wagnerian version of King Crimson. Yes the musicianship on VDGG is not showy but they are clever brilliant musicians, a sort of the antithesis of the Yes musicianship. I would argue they have best best keyboard player of any of the 70s prog bands, and because they dont/hardly use guitar the sax is used as the show off/lead instrument. Peter Hammill uses his voice like a instrument similar to the way Tim Buckley does, he can sing Punk to Falsetto to quiet spoken passages, r can sing a beautiful melody. VDGG are more about atmosphere and feeling. They are brilliant at tension and release with brilliant key changes. The quiet slow parts are important as the dramatic noise. Sit down with no interuptions glass of wine/ coffee and listen to Pawn Hearts or Still Life on a descent hifi they are completely amazing.
Andy I want to sincerely thank you because when you mentioned Marillion I remembered Fish is doing a farewell tour and I managed to book my ticket for that one. I might have forgotten if it wasn't for you.
The problem with VdGG is the sound. They sound very raw and Peters vocals is a part of that. I had a few of their albums in the seventies when I was very much into prog, but I didn’t love the albums. It was in the eighties it finally clicked for me and I fell in love with Peters music and his incredible songwriting and I bought every album I could find with Peter on it. But I have to say, sometimes I have to remake Peters vocals in my head when I’m listening, because it sounds so harsh. I saw Peter live once in the eighties and he didn’t bother to sing tne tunes, it sounded that he just was hitting a random note and then letting it drop in the end. A friend of mine just can’t stand Peters cocals, because he sometimes sings out of tune, but he has problem with Annie Haslams vocals on live recordings as well for the same reason. It’s the very high quality of the songs that’s makes me love VdGG and Peter Hammills solo albums. Peter in my opinion is the most gifted songwriter in the prog world or even in the whole world.
This was great two people having a good yarn about music, neither of you were ripping on the bands you didn't connect with and I feel myself agreeing with much of it. Funnily I agree with some of your arguments but relating to other bands. I don't connect with Van Der Graaf Generator, I find Camel dull ( if I want dull Prog I'll listen to Sky or Bo Hansson). I like Soft Machine though, Volume Two is wonderfully quirky, much better than their debut even though I love Kevin Ayers he just didn't have much input into the album. Volume Two is the start of the Robert Wyatt quirkiness, it busy and fun. Third I have to be in the mood but I think the music is well written, it's adventurous. I love Ratledge's grainy keyboard playing, I can't think of anyone else doing anything like it. Fourth is probably more focussed than 3rd and I think it's excellent. 5th Wyatt had left and they lost some of their humour and quirkiness with that. 6th Karl Jenkins joined the band and would soon dominate them. The live album is dull, but Chloe and the Pirates from the studio album is just a wonderful piece of music, evocative while still being quite experimental, 1983 is nicely weird, but the studio album as a whole is disjointed in a way that I really like it's made up of four distinct and different and interesting pieces, the Jenkins track might be the least interesting but it works because the others are sufficiently challenging. 7 is a bit bland but its quite nice, Jenkins has quite good tunes in him. Bundles has Holdsworth and it's good Softs has some really beautiful tunes and Land of Cockayne is really musical, nothing like their early material. Now here is my outrageous part I don't really like King Crimson, The debut is special but that's a different band from the later. Fripp leads the later band, but he has nothing to do with the lyrics and I really don't think he cares about them and that bugs me also there is something cold about the band. If I want innovation I go to Zappa or Canterbury scene bands they have a sense of humour and whimsy, human warmth.
All my prog buddies can't believe I don't like Genesis. They're fine, but it's just slick pop music with an occasional off meter or fancy riff. Never got Van Graaf. Soft Machine -- meh -- too noodly. The problem with Dream Theater is that they don't have any songs. And if Pink Floyd was prog, I wouldn't like them either.
I'm with Andy regarding Dream Theater. I've never connected with them. I was at the IQ show in Montreal in 2005. Fantastic show. Great memories. I still have my autographed "Dark Matter" CD.
Dream Theater are a bit Marmite like I think. I have all their albums and they all have great tracks but also some so so tunes. Great musicianship though. If they'd stayed with the lighter sound of Images and Words they would have been much bigger I think.
Camel especially the first self-titled album, 1). “Camel”, the album, 2). “Pawn Heart” by Van Der Graaf Generator and the albums, 3). “4” and 4). “7” by Soft Machine are my most favorite albums.
maudlin of the Well literally got me into music as a whole what the hell man, mentioning them in the same sentence with that prog deathcore band is almost insulting
Loved this! Two legends! ❤ Been watching your channel for a long time, and Camel is apparently the first thing we disagree about 😂 I see your points though, but I suspect that you have been colored by having a friend trying to push it onto you (i also get problems when that happens). Moonmadness is their best, so if that is not your cup of tea, no point trying other Camel albums.
I think it's great that both of you are prepared to say what you don't like knowing a large part of your audiences will love the very same bands! Personally, I love Van der Graaf Generator and Fish era Marillion but I'm fine that others don't. As for Camel, yes they were / are very "safe" but I would say no more so than Pink Floyd from Meddle through to Wish You Were Here. I play those albums when I'm ironing.
Grendel is a fine track. Apart some Genesis Supper's Ready similarities towards the end there is nothing derivative. Ok, drummer isn't Phil Collins for sure, but fantastic guitar work. Great lyrics, that murky feel of hopelessness...love it.
Agree on Marillion and Van der Graaf Generator. Also on Soft Machine though I love Bundles (because of Holdsworth) and like Land of Cockanye, I totally disagree on Camel love their first 5 albums. All personal preference though.
I second this comment! I'm a VDGG fan. And I consider the band learned a few lessons in songwriting during their hiatus and came back with 2 masterpieces: Godbluff and Still Life. Andy! Check these two out!!
For the life of me I can’t get into Marillion or Dream Theater. I just find them incredibly derivative and cheesy tbh, esp the vocals and production. They’re like bargain bin versions of Genesis, Metallica, and Rush imo. Not a knock to DT of course, amazing musicians and great guys too. I really love Opeth for prog metal, love Mikael’s vocals and the contrast of soft and metal. I like Pawn Hearts by VDG but I really have to be in the mood for it, the vocals can grate on me sometimes. I really like Magma’s first album because of the jazz influences but again the vocals kind of throw me off. For Soft Machine I absolutely love Bundles with Holdsworth but can’t really get into anything else, Third included. I find the quirkiness annoying and corny tbh. Feel the exact same way, I’ll put on Zappa, Henry Cow or Crimson if I want some avant garde stuff. For some reason when Zappa injects humor it’s actually funny to me. My holy grail of prog bands are Yes, Crimson, and Floyd. I can’t get into Maudlin either but I love Toby’s other band Kayo Dot especially their first album on Zorn’s Tzadik label. Really atmospheric, dark, and heavy at the same time.
I agree with almost everything you say. If you havent heard of Mew , check out albums Frengers, And the Glass Handed Kites. Danish genre blending prog rock. Exceptional. Agree re prog metal exhibitionism, Marillion lack of originality, Camel too sleepy and happy, Soft Machine soft on memorable ideas. Thanks
Excellent video chaps. If I hate something I do not listen to it. So here are a few bands I do not connect with. They are not bad. Frank Zappa - he was clever. He knew that. His music makes absolutely no emotional connection with me. (except "Hot Rats" and the track "Ian Underwood whips it out") Mahavishnu Orchestra - "no softies" means it is like pouring too much salt all over your dinner. "Joy" from Shakti features by far the greatest solo from John McLaughlin Rush - I start a track and think this is good. By the second track I am bored and by the third track I turn off the album. For years I did not know why. I believe it is because of Neil Peart's drums. I believe music needs the rhythm to be underneath as a foundation for the other musicians. Rush have three soloists side by side playing and for me, it just does not work. Opeth - years ago on Stuart Maconie's Freak Zone he had a special on Opeth and I was really looking forward to it. I was so disappointed. Dear Andy, I read that "purposeful provocation" may lead to "a civil lawsuit". So I will ignore what you said about Soft Machine. I have said before that Soft Machine without Robert Wyatt is not Soft Machine. And for those feeling fooled by the video's deliberate joke, Soft Machine’s first two albums seem to have invented English whimsy in music (alongside Caravan). Also try and look for the early recordings with Daevid Allen. Andy, I could see your smile when you mentioned Matching Mole (we all know that Robert Wyatt was in Matching Mole. He even sang "O Caroline") Regarding Klaus Schulze and the synth in general, I would like to propose that it did not just introduce new sounds but was part of introducing a new way of listening. An album may be like putting on a clean shirt, you carry it with you. However, playing synth / ambient etc is like having a piece of furniture. It becomes a part of the room that you move through. Keep up the good work
When rating Marillion their prog-creds don't really work in their favour. There is not much about the instrumentation that is truly innovative. During the 1980s the band was to a large degree a vehicle for the singer. In Fish, Marillion had a vocalist who had a rare quality in being totally convinced by his own words. Critics may say he's too wordy and too flowery, but Fish believes in his words and that comes across, and that is what I believe what attracted so many to the group, prior to his departure. In that sense the Marillion of the 1980s was much more a singer with a backing band that played songs that happened be influenced by prog, than that it was a prog band that happened to have a couple of popular songs.
I’m about 30 minutes in, and you’re common complaints seem to be about a lack of resolution, coming together, landing. That’s exactly where I find myself vis-a-vis Dream Theatre. They are clearly marvellous players, and they drop many lovely ideas into their songs, but they never seem to arrive. Rush and Yes somehow managed to plow through, without dumbing down, while still delivering hooks & choruses but to me it often seems DT is riding around the neighbourhood but can’t find the address. Still…”I should suck like them!!!”😆
I agree with Dream Theater. I now why. They write songs on a white board in order to make things as complicated as and show off as possible rather than with their ears. Emphasise desplays of virtuosity over song writing. Also, they are totally derivative they were really "progressing music". Like you two said it was kind of like a "retread". Once in a while they'll do a slow song and it will sound like a direct attempt to rip off the sound of an acoustic ballad from the Wall.
Good one, Andy. For me, Nucleus are a far better version of what Soft Machine ended up doing, and even Robert Wyatt albums are much more special and loveable. But it's a fact that Soft Machine 3 came out half a year earlier than Zappa's Weasels, so it's not a rip off, except for Flesh. The only ever classic Krautrock I ever loved was Amon Duul 2's first 3 albums, and a handful of Can albums: They're all influenced by early Floyd who were regarded as an Underground band, or avant-garde rock, at the time. List of 5 prog bands that do absolutely nothing for me: 1. Genesis tried to put an AVO on Marillion but failed. No one likes a musical stalker who dresses, talks and walks like the original. 2. Dream Theatre. If you wish to put together a band of great players with immense production values who have a talent for mediocre musical ideas, this is the band for you. A dog with no bite or personality. Listen to their version of Larks Tongues 2 and then put on Crim's U.S.A version afterwards. All will be clear. 3. Tool. The smarty pants, loner guy at the party who suffers from musical Autism. 'One day I will understand what laughing and crying means.' 4. Rush: Let's start off as a bad version of Led Zeppelin and then complicate our music so we become a good version of bad Yes (sorry, Andy). If pushed I could put together a frugal comp that would include Xanadu and a few tracks from Moving Pictures. 2012 would be a drink coaster - cd version of course. 5. Meshuggah: -1-2-2-4-4-3-3-7-7-1-3-3---1. Mathematicians teach at University and that's where they belong. Masters of monotony in timbre, colour, dynamics. Make your own Meshuggah album by playing intricate drum patterns on an airport tarmac next to a jumbo jet and a cargo truck that has engine trouble. Highly entertaining for 15 minutes. P.S. Paring down my Yes collection to save space. Compilation of 3 albums into one: - Relayer of the One Tormato; 1. Wondrous Stories 2. Awaken. 3. Turning of the Tide. 4. Onwards.5. Gates of Delirium. Cheers (the Yes comp is a sort of sorry for hating on Rush)
I loved Dream Theater when I first heard them. I bought three albums in quick succession and played them loud and then...the other shoe dropped. Musically their ok, but lyrics and vocals are dreadful.
I am not an English Speaker so I might not get a subtle Twist: Why is Genesis a Copy of Marillion the Original? Genesis is the Prog Band I love to hit on. I mean if I could do what they do I would not do what they do. Peter Gabriel as a Promoter of others Music can not be underrated. I owe him 2 Bands I promoted once in my early Twenties. And he made Youssou N‘Dour a World Star. Phil Collins made some really good Jazzrock Fusion. But I really do not like any Genesis Records. But please help me out with that Genesis/Marillion Joke. It is a back to the Future DeLorean Thing!
@@erikheddergott5514 Back in the day, early Marillion were accused of being a Genesis knock-off. Usually by people who hadn't listened to either. For some reason, Boy George and Kajagoogoo fans loved to hate on prog.
@@davidmorgan6896 Okay, I might have to ask what an AVO is. As said: Who does your Sentence blame to be the Copy? That NME/Melody Maker and a big Crowd of German Speaking Journalists did not like Marillion back in the 80ties is a Fact.
An AVO is a court order you take out to try and prevent someone from having close contact with you when you fear for your safety, so It's Marillion I'm disliking, not Genesis. Especially when it comes to tracks like Garden Party that sound so much like Genesis it's creepy and disturbing. Early Genesis, on the other hand, from Nursery Cryme right up to Trick of the Tail can rightfully boast to have one of the most consistent runs of musical excellence in the prog genre. If someone can't be thrilled by a song like Firth of Fifth, then it doesn't even come down to liking or disliking prog, they just don't get music, period. Even so, whatever songs gets you off, it's a great thing to love and enjoy music of any kind. @@erikheddergott5514
I understand someone not liking VDGG. They are not easy on the ear - for the most part - but they have something you won't get from any other bad, and it is not to be dismissed.
I love you guys, and we all have a very similar taste so this is just arguing amongst gentlemen. But God dammit you are so wrong on soft machine. Listening to you guys discount soft machine was just like finger nails on a chalkboard for my ears. Third is the titanic classic. I have been playing that album for 40 years. It is a piece of sublime beauty, they were. They are archetypical Canterbury band. They start it off with that quirky sound on the first two albums third was a classic fourth is excellent. They continue to progress along the early 70s with first art rock and their own special brand of jazz rock prog and then 56 and seven they’re experimenting and growing and then with bundles that is a classic Fusion album with Allan Holdsworth. Soft machine third period is not a poor man’s Frank Zappa or Mahavishnu orchestra. It’s not attempting that level of virtuosity. what it is is a brilliantly composed with moments of improv, that is really a piece of art jazz Prog rock. The tune moon in June alone is one of the greatest pieces of Prog rock ever.
Andy's picks are spot on. I can't/don't listen to any of those bands with the exception of the occasional attempt to get into Soft Machine (and I do like the early Kevin Ayers stuff).
Well done. I agree with everything said (at least with regards to the bands I know), but was disappointed to hear both of you pan Soft Machine. Although I dislike the first two records (campy, dated psychedelia) and think Six, Seven and Softs are a bit boring, Third and Fourth are absolute jazz-rock masterpieces. I do not think the compositions on those are aimless at all. On tracks like Slightly all the Time and Out-Bloody-Rageous there is ebb-and-flow, mystery, darkness, climatic soloing and moments of sublime beauty. There is certainly an element of danger and a palpable mystique about the band. I don’t consider them a prog band, but rather a highly innovative jazz-rock and experimental group.
My fav prog that are currently in their original form are All Them Witches. I guess I like the old school melodic trippy sound. ELP/Pink Floyd are to prog what Christopher Cross/Michael McDonald are to Yacht rock. I must update my understanding of genres. For myself, Frank Zappa, Tan Dream and Soft Machine are avant garde.
All Them Witches are more psychedelic hard rock/metal to me than prog, but they certainly fall in the prog adjacent camp. I really like them in any case.
I agree with you Andy. I love Rush, they are my favourite band of all time. However, I just can't get into Dream Theater, I want to like them but just can't make the connection.
Marillion are my favourite band, though, I don’t get “ Clutching at Straws “ which is a favourite amongst fans. For me it’s a bit too dark and a tad depressing.
Interesting episode. Indeed. Indubitably. Personally, l never got into VDGG either. Cheers from Noo Yawk, ova heyah. Rock Out and Prog On… in every lexicon! Your pal & mine, ~ Davey Cretin
Why do we like Rush yet dismiss Dream Theater? Cutting to the chase... I hear a lot of rock & metal clichés in Dream Theatre's music (chug-chug power chords, pit-a-pat tomtoms). I don't hear that in Rush. Also, DT's melodies seem more bland & predictable with the kind of long intros that are very 1970-something. Rush get to the point quicker & with more originality.
You had a nice talk with one exeption: Both German groups are explicitly not progressive rock groups. It's written boldly and clearly on the cover of Mummien: Cantata. A German cantata has nothing to do with 70s progressive rock, even if it is called a rock cantata. I think the last thing the music-playing cabaret artists from Floh de Cologne wanted was to be stuck in a box with progressive rock groups. Otherwise, just take a look at Wikipedia to be informed who and what Floh de Cologne was. Schulze was the drummer for tangerine dream for a year, the mastermind was Edgar Froese. Schulze became the mastermind of Ash Ra Tempel. Both groups from the electronic music genre. And just as Steve Reich was not a progressive rock or progressive music representative, neither are these two groups. The next time a patron sends salami, it will then be tested as the worst chocolate bar because the patron said, try this chocolate bar.
Though they are incredible musicians, I feel the same about Dream Theater. It sounds like parts just stuck together, I dont get any journey out if it. It is hard to explain though. I think Rush takes you on a journey, the melody, changes, structures to me are often exciting. Just another opinion though...
This was such a fun conversation! Thanks again for having me on!
I'm relatively new to Andy's channel which I found because I'm a drummer, and so glad to hear of yours. Great conversation btw.
I try to exercise kind of a multidimensional aesthetic preference. There's moments when i just want to be taken by beautifully interpreted melodies. And that's where's Camel, Pink Floyd, Marillion, Beatles and others come in. There's moments when i want some kind of a spiritual experience with music. That's when Magma comes in (or Phaorah Sanders, Coltrane or others jazz counterparts). There's moments for darkness, with Van der Graaf, mid period King Crimson, early Tangerine Dream etc. And there's moments where i just want to be blown away and excited by sheer virtuosity and unpredictability. Thats when i go to Zappa, Holdsworth, Gentle Giant or more extremes of avant garde. If i can tick all the aesthetic boxes at the same time great! But thats not always possible haha.
I almost always want energy and that means I almost always want Magma.
This was highly entertaining and great to see you guys do a video together. I mostly could appreciate where you guys where coming from with the bands mentioned, although I really like some. Hope you guys do another one sometime!
Loved this video. Except for that bit about soft machine, I agreed with a lot of what was said. No surprise. Notes was great. This guy knows his shit. As much as people love seeing you bashing the bands you don't connect with, you spinned it into a discussion about new good bands. The whole conversation was super fun and even made me think about going to listen to some of the albums discussed here. And I'm always a sucker for VDGG. What an awesome band. I'm always up for protecting their name....LOL. Thanks Andy.
I love Vander Der Graaf Generator, specifically the Still Life album
One of my favorite band which I think should get more love. I think a lot of people mess up with VDGG thinking their early 70s trilogy is best represnting them. However, it's their 2nd trilogy of Godbluff, Still Slife and World Record which is really where they peaked. And from that trilogy, it's Still Life that keeps to amaze me and make me really go nuts. It's an album I really care about. Every song is just to die for.
Godbluff is class
VAN DER GRAAF and PETER HAMMILL have great albums, not easy listen but it's worth your time. I can't stand GENESIS, i tried...but no
My favorites are Genesis, ELP and VDGG. Pawn Hearts is one of the greatest prog album of all time
weird, I compare Soft Machine's "Third" more to Bitches Brew and think it DOES go somewhere and think Bitches Brew is just aimless noodling. Don't hear Weasels Ripped My Flesh at all. Maybe a little Hot Rats.
I agree completely, Michael. And, although I find nice moments to Mahavishnu, RTF, Herbie Hancock, I have only found most of the Miles Davis offshoots only moderately interesting at best.
I've mentioned this before on Patreon but I remember seeing Genesis in support of Vandergraph, as genesis began to play the auditorium began to fill as most people in the bar could hear the music and left to come watch, when Vandergraph came on as headliners a lot of people left and went back to the bar, I too struggle with Vandergraph but became a lifelong Genesis follower from then on.
You sure upset me with Soft Machine! :)
No, but seriously... I love Third ... but I think what you really need to hear is all those live recordings from 1969 to 1970 (e.g., "Facelift (France and Holland)"). They had this darkness, in their keyboards and bass, that other bands lacked.
That’s an important point. They have a lot of live recordings that are really excellent.
And someone like Robert Wyatt had a lot more chops than the first Mothers drummer Jimmy Carl Black. And the first Soft Machine album was much more than just pop with some psychedelics. Even Zappa's Freak out sounded tame compared to SM's So Boot if at all/ Why am I so short / A certain kind....probably the most experimental out there avant rock ever recorded up until that moment.
I think Third is great too 👍
Yeah, Third is wonderful
@@FreeBrunoPowroznik Yes Third is great - especially 'Slightly All The Time'.
I just wanted to add that Klaus Schulze didn't do so much with Tangerine Dream, he just was on their first album. His contribution to Ash Ra Tempel's first and third album are even more significant than his work with TD.
he was in TD for 9 months (1969-1970) and one week in 1973. Klaus's best work is as a solo musician
For a bit of Klaus Schulze in a band situation, Go by Stomu Yamash'ta is worth checking out (if you haven't already).
@@passenger62 Forgot that, but I have that album too and it's essential. By The way, I also forgot The Cosmic Jokers.
Great content. Loved it. Thanks chaps. Have subscribed to Notes Reviews!
Great...one of the best prog RUclipsrs out there IMO
Ditto.
I never thought of krautrock as prog either. It's mostly experimental/avantgarde rock. Compare the difference to an avant-prog band like Henry Cow who use some similar techniques but are ultimately more composed and constructed. Kraut is mostly about deconstruction, textures, noise.
I have never seen the point to all these subcategories as dividing lines in an already divided idiom.
The Guest’s most hated Prog Rock bands;
5). Floh De Cologne,
4). Klaus Schulze,
3). Soft Machine,
2). Maudlin The Well,
1). Slice The Cake.
I hadn't heard those other acts either. I thought Soft Machine's Bundles was brilliant. Softs was great too. And Klaus Shultz on Stomu Yamashta's Go! was excellent.
The latest lineup of Tangerine Dream (there's never been just one lineup) are currently touring North America (IMHO this is the best lineup in decades): NORTH AMERICAN TOUR
September 8 - Miami Beach Bandshell, Miami/USA with special guest ‘Night Foundation’ (Richard Vergez) + ‘Little Annie’
September 11 - The Orange Peel, Asheville/USA
September 12 - Centre Stage, Atlanta/USA
September 13 - Ferris Wheelers, Dallas/USA with special guest ‘Black Taffy’
September 14 - The Mohawk, Austin/USA with special guest ‘More Eaze’ (Mari Maurice)
September 16 - El Ray, Albuquerque/USA
September 17- Rialto Theatre, Tucson/USA with special session guest ‘Steve Roach’
September 18 - Magnolia, El Cajon/USA with special session guest ‘Steve Roach’
September 19 - The Vermont, Los Angeles/USA
September 20 - Regency Ballroom, San Francisco/USA with special session guest ‘Robert Rich’
September 22 - Revolution Hall, Portland/USA
September 24 - Rickshaw Theatre, Vancouver/Canada
September 25 - The Neptune, Seattle/USA
September 27 - Keswick Theatre, Glenside, Pennsylvania/USA
September 29 - Lincoln Theatre, Washington/USA with special guest ‘Insect Factory’ (Jeff Barsky)
September 30 - Knockdown Centre, New York/USA with special guests ‘Xeno & Oaklander’ (DJ Set)
October 1 - Olympia - Pop Montreal, Montreal/Canada with special guest ‘Invités’
October 3 - Opera House, Toronto/Canada with special session guest ‘John Kameel Farah’
October 5 - Metro, Chicago/USA
GERMAN TOUR
October 10 Gewandhaus, Großer Saal, Leipzig/Germany
October 12 Rheingoldhalle, Mainz/Germany
October 14 Lokschuppen, Bielefeld/Germany
October 16 Theater am Aegi, Hannover/Germany
October 17 Metropol Theater, Bremen/Germany
October 18 Admiralspalast, Berlin/Germany
October 20 Tollhaus, Karlsruhe/Germany
October 21 Neue Gebläsehalle, Neunkirchen/Saar/Germany
October 22 Osnabrückhalle, Europa Saal, Osnabrück/Germany
October 24 Lichtburg, Essen/Germany
October 25 Theaterhaus am Pragsattel, Stuttgart/Germany
October 26 Hamburg, Laeiszhalle, Großer Saal, Hamburg/Germany
October 28 Isarphilharmonie, München/Germany
UK TOUR
November 5 De La Warr Pavilion, Bexhill/England
November 6 Guildhall, Portsmouth/England
November 7 Princess Pavilion, Falmouth/England
November 8 Palladium, London/England
November 9 Brudenell Social Club, Leeds/England
November 10 Albert Hall, Manchester/England
November 11 HH Prog Festival, Great Yarmouth/England Sold-Out
November 12 Boiler Shop, Newcastle/England
November 13 St Luke’s & The Winged Ox, Glasgow/Scotland
November 14 The Queen's Hall, Edinburgh/Scotland with special guest ‘Ali Ferguson’
This episode exceeded my expectations.
Loved this discussion. I couldn't agree more about bands like Soft Machine and Camel. Just listened to the Avenged Seven Fold album you guys were raving about. Yep, it's great. I don't recall that you mentioned Queen as one of their influences, but I hear Queen everywhere in this album, especially in its diversity. There was even a place where it sounded like Brian May on guitar.
I love all the Prog!!! This is going to be very exciting!!!
I believe you.
Honestly, this was the hardest collab I've ever had to do. Thinking about a prog band I didn't like????????
If you say you love all prog then you are not prog 😅
Some of the problems appreciating some of these artists might be that there's a big experience gap between working your way through a back catalogue and being there and listening to the albums when they're getting released (I'm old 😄).
Very true. Ploughing through a discography on Spotify isn't the same. No anticipation. No bedding an album in because you can just dial in something different the instant you dislike a track.
I've often thought that I'd have a much higher opinion of Camel's _"Snow Goose"_ if I had heard it when it was released (1975). But I didn't come across Camel until _"Stationary Traveller"_ was released (1984), and then I worked my way backwards in their catalog. By the time I heard _"Snow Goose"_ it seemed fine, but I didn't feel it was particularly great.
trying to figure out whose done what maudlin of the Well has done, and better since?
Time of Orchids?
Subterranean Masquerade?
unExpect?
and I don't count Kayo Dot per the Metal role (or lack of) in their music is much different.
There's some Post Metal that uses similar instrumentation, but not identical, and don't think nearly as well.
Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Gong.
Just kidding! 😄
Troublemaker
that's just elephant talk
Got me for a ..while
My heart stopped 😅
Magma are a band you have to see live to experience the sheer power and dynamics. I was totally blown away when I saw them at the Cadogan hall in London!
I'm "not a fan", but there's a certain old live concert video/movie from "back in the day" that... well, it's great! I can't remember when or what. I think I have it on a hard drive somewhere. Need to watch again.
Love when they add the avant garde and jazzy elements. Saw them live in NYC. Really good. I've seem some live clips from the 70s, amazing stuff.
@@ElrondHubbard_1They’re amazing live.
any neo prog or symphonic
I was really disappointed, as I find Soft Machine covered combined area of early Zappa and all of King Crimson's development by 1977, I think the lack of a guitar soloist may deaden people to Soft Machine's impact (and the compositional variety did tend to lessen after Soft Machine Six), but they had one of the best rhythm sections in fusion; the most unique soloists in fusion, and especially on Volume 2, and Third-Fifth, and incredible array of compositional styles, especially from Wyatt, Hopper, Ratledge, Dean and Jenkins. I don't think of them at all as the English Mothers, but as a pioneer in the fusion world, using outstanding and imaginative musicianship...and among the first to utilize minimalism as a compositional tool. It helped that I was so sick of guitarists by 1970 that I just latched in to Soft Machine as my first group inspiration and also loved their avant garde connections. They were pretty amazing!
Again, I realize there are differences of opinion and I respect that. I think a key difference between perspectives is that you fellows seem to fail to connect with things that are loosely knit. I tend to enjoy things that have an element of chaos in them. The borderline between order and chaos fascinates me. Hence, I had little patience for MO after a few listens and more love for SM as an ensemble. I also never thought of SM as just another fusion ensemble even when the band was made up of mostly Nucleus members. They had a very distinctive compositional style. (My favorite VDGG album is Pawn Hearts, because it teeters on the edge so much, Miles seems to be reticent about going too out of control...so he meanders a great deal to me. Just my very lengthy thoughts (Oh and Henry Cow's improvs are very static to me. I like them, but I find little tension in their improvised work, which I miss.) I think I need to copy Andy and have my own channel on music. I tend towards the freer side of things and although I like some tight bands, I love the ones who aren't afraid to lose control at times.
Schulze deserved better too. Whenever I listen to TD I feel like I am listening to a soundtrack, especially after Sorcerer. With Klaus, although I don't like him all the time, I hear experimentation. But I also enjoy John Cage's Cartridge Music!
Agreed to nearly all of this... though I wasn't really disappointed by SF's inclusion -- I can see some people may not like it. I may add that Mike Ratledge is one of the most unique keyboard players, who sounded amazing as a replacement of a guitar player (and much 'darker' -- to use one of Andy's expressions -- than Keith Emerson, for example), and a tremendous composer.
By the way, I actually think that Henry Cow could be included in a list like this.... though, again, some may argue it's not really prog.
Gary, I agree with everything you said. And he said it very well. There’s an element of looseness and soft machine that’s different from so many of the other bands. Yet they still have direction in the songs. I love the term fusion and I typically use the terms fusion and jazz rock interchangeably. But when it comes to soft machines middle. I tend to view that as jazz rock maybe because without the guitar it doesn’t have as much of that electric fusion sound that we associate with the term period bundles is definitely a fusion album to my ears. And third and almost 4th are absolute masterpieces. I could come up with 30 other bands that deserve to be on this list before soft machine. I was always raised to think of the Prog big six as Genesis Pink Floyd, king crimson yes ELP and soft machine as the big six of Prog
Just one additional comment and a general statement about critics in general; and what happened in prog, fusion and jazz in general.
(If you have to label Henry Cow at all, it would be Progressive. Their first album was closer to the Mothers than anything that SM did, although SM Vol. 1 does have a quote from Absolutely Free and Zappa and the Mothers were both initially produced by Tom Wilson, but Wyatt didn't have many kind words for Wilson as a producer). As a matter of fact, the first HC album reminded me of a direction the Mothers could have entered after Uncle Meat. (I am incredibly disappointed that Hatfield and the North and National Health are almost never mentioned as fusion influencers. Just great albums and players.)
I also think Emerson and Brian Auger were convinced replacements for lead guitarists. The guitar was ubiquitous, but you also had groups like Egg, Back Door, and Etron Fou Leloublan who functioned quite well without a lead guitarist.
But, I think history and the bias of critics (especially people who came to this music after it was developed) is a large component of some of the perspectives I am seeing. I am 70 and grew up when these bands and players were emerging. I never heard a rock groups blend free jazz and rock as well as Soft Machine (that includes the Mothers, who I loved). Zappa solidified his fan base with One Size Fits All-great album, but less daring and less chaotic than his earlier stuff. (Live, he was still extraordinary of course).
KC released two albums that I didn't appreciate until years after they were released (Lizard sounded like free jazz, but very shambolic).
I ran across Soft Machine, Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, John Cage at roughly the same time. So the barriers between music were not as categorized as they seem to be now.
I think Prog and Fusion started to decline when they formularized themselves. And they started repeating (I can remember one of the main criticisms of MO being that the second album was pretty much the same formula as the first, which I found basically true.) Everyone repeats, but it was very obvious with MO and King Crimson in certain albums. But it was still great stuff. But creating a stable system is not really progressive.
The landing points issue sounds like a desire for a hook, which seems anti-progressive.
Finally, and this was a problem I had as early as the 1970's; prog audiences seem to have a real need for control. For me, I hit a tipping point when I read a comparison of Sun Ra and Magma in Archie Patterson's Eurock Magazine. The author compared the two together and ranked Magma higher because they were better organized. I have seen both live, and both were legendary...but Ra covered so much more than Christian did. Ra could go anywhere. That set a pattern I could start to see. Progress, in general, crave predictability and the general moderation that mainstream critics love. Hence, I think I see Andy's problems with VDGG: by the way, Hugh Banton is a virtuoso keyboard player. He just isn't, as Bruford described Wakeman, an arpeggio King!
I honestly don't understand why they have such a problem with the need for structure/coherence. I found it interesting that none of Andy's best jazz albums were truly free jazz albums and he thought Peter Brotzmann's Machine Gun was just intended to shock. It represents, to me, a profound misunderstanding o 49:10 f free music.
Maybe I have it wrong, but I think there is a need for comfort that I think compromises them a bit.
I have my limits too, but I love music that stretches my ears and defies my expectations.
Kudos to Andy for mentioning the John Lydon album, btw. I agree punk was ridiculous, but Lydon isn't.
Andy did mention a group of bands that were spinoffs or directly influenced by the Software and one thing I noticed was that they all had prominent guitarists. VDGG doesn't have a dominant guitar as well. I don't know, but I have noticed a special place in hell being set aside for bands that don't have a smoking lead guitar; I don't think it's my imagination. Rock is incredibly guitar centric. Any band that does not have a guitar is suspect.
Miles Davis doesn't have emotional peaks; John Coltrane does. But comparing SM to to Coltrane is ridiculous. They are functioning in different worlds, although some pieces on SM 4th and Side one of Fifth do enter the world of John Coltrane. I think they have well developed prejudices against SM based on false analogies with the Mothers.
I came back to this video because I wanted to follow up on something that’s been stuck in my head and that is Andy’s comparison from soft machine to the mothers. And then I see your very eloquent addendum to your original post, which I enjoyed very much and I think you do a really good job of teasing out what is happening with their lack of engagement with soft machine. For Andy, to say soft machines, third album is a poor man’s version of one of Frank Zappa‘s albums misses the mark. And I am a huge Frank Zappa fan probably a bigger, Zappa fan, soft machine. I have tons of his albums, but even though he plays in more sub genres than almost any musicians ever lived, he still frames even his solos in a direct controlled point moving forward. Where soft machine are more comfortable, and frankly innovators in solos and compositions and frameworks that are more aleatory, drifting and even meandering. I which intern can be every bit as enjoyable as Frank Zappa’s music, but coming from a different perspective.
@@garygomesvedicastrology Re: Henry Cow, being progressive. Could be, but their hardcore fans say they have their own category, 'Rock in Opposition'. I know more than a few of these fans...
Fantastic video. Thanks guys!
GRADING VINYL: 4 RULES w/no PLUSES - This is based on PATRICK and other ARCHIVIST.
1. "I have to 'Archive this, Now!" ------> (can't be better than that!)
2. "Best Album I have to archive, till I find one better." ------> (still searching for a better copy)
3. "I don't know, I had to hear it!" ------> (it's a meaningful album and I miss it.)
4. "Are you CRAZY!?!?!? lol :)"" -----> (anyone buying this terrible copy is crazy)
M.F. Gershowitz (1953-2023 or longer)
... enjoy a simple solution to grading records :)
Loved it. More please!
Thank you, I’ll try to catch them in Chicago. I need to check out album releases by the current lineup.
Great conversation!
Thanks.
'It just sounds widdly widdly.' 😂 The perennial prog problem: selecting the level of widdle you're comfortable with
Andy Edward’s most hated Prog Rock bands list;
1). Marrillion,
2). Camel,
3). Van der Graaf Generator,
4). Soft Machine,
5). Dream Theater.
I’m happy you guys didn’t ”connect” with Soft Machine, I feel the same way although I love most of the Canterbury scene! I don’t agree regarding Camel though. They are not super innovative or complex, but their first 4 albums are very enjoyable and have a very special vibe.
great chat. Soft Machine 2 is the one for me. great record
I always get a bad vibe from shows about, "what we DON'T like", but such discussions still seem to be interesting and also bring out what we DO like. Kudos to the mention of modern Australian Prog Metal. My favorite band in many years is SCOREDATURA (with an 'E' in the middle). To me, a stripped down (though virtuosic with great compositions) version of Modern Instrumental Prog Metal. Kind of a mix of modern with 70s hard rock, metal, and fusion. Eager to check out what Notes mentioned from Australia.
no computers in Klaus's music when he first started - it was all analog - either a Synthanorma sequencer or a Moog 960 sequential controller
I agree with you about Camel not having "an edge" but I still like them especially the albums from Mirage to Raindances and at least they produced the sort of music I could play to my parents without them running screaming from the room covering their ears. For me VDGG were at the other end of the spectrum in terms of aural assault but I always loved those great primal riffs of theirs The other thing about VDGG is their lyrics were absolutely critical and the music reinforced the meaning of them. Pawn Hearts is probably their best album with Godbluff coming a close 2nd.I initially loved Marillion mainly because their music around the Misplaced Childhood period seemed to be similar to what Genesis might have developed in the 80's had they not gone down a different path.
Great discussion. I would agree with most of the bands mentioned although, like Notes, i think early Camel has a gentle charm. Hope you two can find time to have another chat!
CA.EL is a great band,i didn't hear everything, but 70s stuff is very good, more some jazzy/Pink Floyd combination. Love CARAVAN too
You're so right about "Album" by PIL, one of the most overlooked LPs of the 80s - but I feel John Lydon's inspiration is more to be found in Damo Suzuki's voice (Can) than Peter Hammil's .. btw did you ever mention Can ?
Well, Lydon said he liked VDGG. I personally never heard him mention Can. Hamill is more likely, to me at least.
@@garygomesvedicastrology I remember Lydon interviewed by the time PIL was making the "Metal Box" (1979) saying how Can was more exciting than most of the british prog bands - and I remember it very well because that's how I discovered this german band and later bought "Ege Bamyasi"... To me, PIL's repetitive music ("Albatross") as a lot more in common with Can’s obsessive rythmic patterns than with the narrative structures of prog compositions...
@@garygomesvedicastrologyFunnily enough, I've only just checked out a list of Lydon's 12 favourite albums, where he lists Tago Mago by Can as a favourite, but no Van Der Graaf
Bruno, He probably didn't mention Genesis either, or the Nice, but there was an interview in which he said he liked one Genesis song and loved what Keith Emerson did with daggers in the Nice when he and Emerson met. You can like attributes of a band without putting them on your favorite ten albums list.
I really loved Can between 1973 and 1979, but I ultimately found them a bit repetitive for me personally. The only VDGG album I really enjoy is Pawn Hearts, mainly because it's their most adventurous and I was a free jazz fan as well as a progressive fan.
Tastes are a personal thing and I don't base my own personal tastes on what people I like happen to like. I thought PIL was interesting, but not as interesting as, let's say, This Heat, for example. Can were Stockhausen students who saw the Velvet Underground and said we can do that better. It is a bit dismissive, I know, but that's kind of how I see them now. My view might change over time.
The dis of Soft Machine in this exchange irritated me, but they are entitled to their opinions. I just think they are incredibly wrong in their assessments.
Music doesn't have to have a conclusion, but if you don't hear levels of excitement in SM, you aren't listening.
@@Tacotac64Calling VDGG narrative is a bit of a stretch for me to be honest. Bottom line: John Lydon was pretty open minded. So were a lot of punks.
I am not trying to establish a lineage of influence here. Influence can be what attracts or repels you, to be honest. I would do everything I personally could to avoid playing guitar like Neil Young, for instance, but I like a few of his ideas. We're products of our aesthetic environment.
i find it odd how prevalent the idea is that there's no point to the extremeness in maudlin of the Well, and I've heard this criticism of Kayo Dot as well. maybe the subject matter delves too esoteric and obscure, so it's hard to get immersed and see a point to it. granted, Bath and Leaving Your Body Map area all about secrecy and the occult, so i don't blame anyone for having experienced this.
This was an awesome video! I enjoyed the sharing of opinions.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for your channel. Great content and your knowledge and experience is appreciated.
Fair comments and opinions, good show.❤
I am in 'open to all prog' mode so i cant say what prog i hate. I rejected DT when i first heard of them.
By the way, the synthesizer analogy for poor Klaus is weird.
It's like saying that I heard a certain technology (let's say a piano, or Hendrix on electric guitar and said, 0h, now I know what that is; therefore anything that uses that is passe). And analog synths are more valued now than they were for decades! You folks really need to keep up with recent developments!
I realize this is an opinion, but I want better reasons or respect just diminishes precipitously.
I love prog, but hate the RRHOF. I agree with your comments on Dream Theater. Saw them in concert, only thing I could relate to was the Yes covers.
Same here. RRHOF is mostly a joke, as most awards-based organizations are. They contribute nothing and simply are riding on the coattails of greatness so they can feel elite and hobnob with legends. I stopped caring about awards more than 20 years ago now.
Dream Theatre are amazing musicians in search of a song.
Marillion were never that big here - I love them, but they were only popular with a niche audience. I missed seeing them in Charlotte in the 80s, but I did manage to see them in Pittsburgh on the Afraid of Sunlight tour.
Saw Marillion in their very early years at the start of the eighties when they played clubs and small theatres, I never got into them tbh but my mate bought all their records up to when Fish left.
Thank you Andy that you introduced me IQ. Simply incredible band. Can you recommend other great bands worth to check out? Btw I like Marillion. They have some good stuff.
Amazing Andy. If I would make a list of well regarded prog bands that I never connected to, it would be about the same. Including Dream Theater, Camel, Marillion.
Loved you 2 guys chatting away, fascinating . I am actually subscribed to both of you but the first time I've seen you together. In fact the funniest video I've ever seen on you tube was Notes review of ELPs Love Beach , hilarious.
In fact I've probably seen you Andy if you were drumming with Frost, a double header with It Bites probably about 15 years ago now .
One of the great American prog bands for me who approached metal at times were Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. They were out of Oakland and were one of a kind. Very dark at times, even satanic in a William Blake kind of way (if that makes sense), at other times very uplifting. They were a strange bunch and unique. They really don't sound like anyone else.
AGREED! So underratted. Two groups that sound a bit like them (Cuz they Have the same singer / guitar player ) are Idoit Flesh and Free Salamander Exbit.
Thanks for a stimulating discussion. Yes, Klaus is a bit of a noodler but I like his 70s albums. Tangerine Dream of the 70s tend to be more tightly structured and a lot less vacuous noodling. I saw TD twice in the 70s and hearing those pulsating rhythms fill a concert hall was something special. VdGG are my favourite prog band but I can understand why some people find them tedious. PH's voice and lyrics are a major factor in their compositions but they're not for the casual listener. IMO, PH is the most intelligent and subtle prog lyricist. Airy-fairy, twee and whimsical is certainly not PH.
I'm typically very closely with Andy when it comes to likes and dislikes. I checked out Maudlin of the Well and I really like what I hear. I'm curious if Andy is with me on this one or not.
Indeed, hate is a bit too strong a word. Notes had some more obscure choices but I'd agreed with the one with which I am familiar. Thanks. I will check out his channel. Well as far as your choices, Andy, nearly 5 for 5 with me but I'm a bit softer on Soft Machine. This band too, so recommended... I so wanted to like more but didn't fully connect with, but come on! Let's not too quickly dismiss Bundles (though admittedly, Holdsworth makes everything better). Also their great song Memories! Sure, the version of Hopper''s song on Daevid Allen's Banana Moon is still my favorite but I've heard you give some love to Material's Whitney Houston version. As to prog bands I didn't connect with... one I've never heard you mention so not sure you've heard of them...Go! Stomu Yamashta's Go... a supergroup I SO wanted to like. Yamashta's a Japanese percussionist, keyboard player and composer. In the band: Klaus Shultz (um, ok... so maybe we've discussed his solo album problems), Steve Winwood! Michael Shrieve! Al DiMeola! I had such high expectations and just did not connect.
Underselling yourself Andy! Great drumming on Frost*s Experiments in mass appeal 🤘🏻very underrated Frost* album
Andy- think of VDGG as a dark gothic Wagnerian version of King Crimson. Yes the musicianship on VDGG is not showy but they are clever brilliant musicians, a sort of the antithesis of the Yes musicianship. I would argue they have best best keyboard player of any of the 70s prog bands, and because they dont/hardly use guitar the sax is used as the show off/lead instrument. Peter Hammill uses his voice like a instrument similar to the way Tim Buckley does, he can sing Punk to Falsetto to quiet spoken passages, r can sing a beautiful melody. VDGG are more about atmosphere and feeling. They are brilliant at tension and release with brilliant key changes. The quiet slow parts are important as the dramatic noise. Sit down with no interuptions glass of wine/ coffee and listen to Pawn Hearts or Still Life on a descent hifi they are completely amazing.
Andy I want to sincerely thank you because when you mentioned Marillion I remembered Fish is doing a farewell tour and I managed to book my ticket for that one. I might have forgotten if it wasn't for you.
The problem with VdGG is the sound. They sound very raw and Peters vocals is a part of that. I had a few of their albums in the seventies when I was very much into prog, but I didn’t love the albums. It was in the eighties it finally clicked for me and I fell in love with Peters music and his incredible songwriting and I bought every album I could find with Peter on it. But I have to say, sometimes I have to remake Peters vocals in my head when I’m listening, because it sounds so harsh. I saw Peter live once in the eighties and he didn’t bother to sing tne tunes, it sounded that he just was hitting a random note and then letting it drop in the end. A friend of mine just can’t stand Peters cocals, because he sometimes sings out of tune, but he has problem with Annie Haslams vocals on live recordings as well for the same reason.
It’s the very high quality of the songs that’s makes me love VdGG and Peter Hammills solo albums. Peter in my opinion is the most gifted songwriter in the prog world or even in the whole world.
From u.k.
Totally nailed it!
About the soft machine.
And the generator.
It’s mainly different eras of bands for me
5. Opeth
4. Gentle Giant
3. Big Big Train
2. Hawkwind
1. Magma
You're not the only one who doesn't get Gentle Giant.
This was great two people having a good yarn about music, neither of you were ripping on the bands you didn't connect with and I feel myself agreeing with much of it. Funnily I agree with some of your arguments but relating to other bands. I don't connect with Van Der Graaf Generator, I find Camel dull ( if I want dull Prog I'll listen to Sky or Bo Hansson). I like Soft Machine though, Volume Two is wonderfully quirky, much better than their debut even though I love Kevin Ayers he just didn't have much input into the album. Volume Two is the start of the Robert Wyatt quirkiness, it busy and fun. Third I have to be in the mood but I think the music is well written, it's adventurous. I love Ratledge's grainy keyboard playing, I can't think of anyone else doing anything like it. Fourth is probably more focussed than 3rd and I think it's excellent. 5th Wyatt had left and they lost some of their humour and quirkiness with that. 6th Karl Jenkins joined the band and would soon dominate them. The live album is dull, but Chloe and the Pirates from the studio album is just a wonderful piece of music, evocative while still being quite experimental, 1983 is nicely weird, but the studio album as a whole is disjointed in a way that I really like it's made up of four distinct and different and interesting pieces, the Jenkins track might be the least interesting but it works because the others are sufficiently challenging. 7 is a bit bland but its quite nice, Jenkins has quite good tunes in him. Bundles has Holdsworth and it's good Softs has some really beautiful tunes and Land of Cockayne is really musical, nothing like their early material. Now here is my outrageous part I don't really like King Crimson, The debut is special but that's a different band from the later. Fripp leads the later band, but he has nothing to do with the lyrics and I really don't think he cares about them and that bugs me also there is something cold about the band. If I want innovation I go to Zappa or Canterbury scene bands they have a sense of humour and whimsy, human warmth.
I'd have Sky over Camel any day!!!
All my prog buddies can't believe I don't like Genesis. They're fine, but it's just slick pop music with an occasional off meter or fancy riff. Never got Van Graaf. Soft Machine -- meh -- too noodly. The problem with Dream Theater is that they don't have any songs. And if Pink Floyd was prog, I wouldn't like them either.
I'm with Andy regarding Dream Theater. I've never connected with them. I was at the IQ show in Montreal in 2005. Fantastic show. Great memories. I still have my autographed "Dark Matter" CD.
Dream Theater are a bit Marmite like I think. I have all their albums and they all have great tracks but also some so so tunes. Great musicianship though. If they'd stayed with the lighter sound of Images and Words they would have been much bigger I think.
Camel especially the first self-titled album,
1). “Camel”, the album,
2). “Pawn Heart” by Van Der Graaf Generator and the albums,
3). “4” and
4). “7” by Soft Machine are my most favorite albums.
Where would Forest for the Trees fall? Is it partially prog?
maudlin of the Well literally got me into music as a whole what the hell man, mentioning them in the same sentence with that prog deathcore band is almost insulting
Loved this! Two legends! ❤ Been watching your channel for a long time, and Camel is apparently the first thing we disagree about 😂 I see your points though, but I suspect that you have been colored by having a friend trying to push it onto you (i also get problems when that happens). Moonmadness is their best, so if that is not your cup of tea, no point trying other Camel albums.
Very pleased to get Notes on here...yes RUclips legend!!!
Porcupine Tree / Steven Wilson, Dream Theater, Opeth.
I think it's great that both of you are prepared to say what you don't like knowing a large part of your audiences will love the very same bands! Personally, I love Van der Graaf Generator and Fish era Marillion but I'm fine that others don't. As for Camel, yes they were / are very "safe" but I would say no more so than Pink Floyd from Meddle through to Wish You Were Here. I play those albums when I'm ironing.
Marillion and Big Train should be on the list
Marillion seems to be nro1
Marrillion is Andy Edwards’ most hated Prog Rock band.
Big Big Train? They're great!
Grendel is a fine track. Apart some Genesis Supper's Ready similarities towards the end there is nothing derivative. Ok, drummer isn't Phil Collins for sure, but fantastic guitar work. Great lyrics, that murky feel of hopelessness...love it.
Early Marillion was great. Then Fish left.
Agree on Marillion and Van der Graaf Generator. Also on Soft Machine though I love Bundles (because of Holdsworth) and like Land of Cockanye, I totally disagree on Camel love their first 5 albums. All personal preference though.
Nicely done.
Thank you! Cheers!
Andy, you really need to check Van der Graaf's "Godbluff" and "Still Life." More cohesive than "Pawn Hearts" which is their most difficult album.
I second this comment! I'm a VDGG fan. And I consider the band learned a few lessons in songwriting during their hiatus and came back with 2 masterpieces: Godbluff and Still Life. Andy! Check these two out!!
Van der Graaf is the best band to divorce your wife.
I haven't listened to vdgg in decades, but now really want to hear Godbluff again. Easily my favourite of their albums.
@@МаксРогозин-е1ю I like to say that it "isn't first date music."
@@aaronhayman8558 "Last date music" is always the best haha
For the life of me I can’t get into Marillion or Dream Theater. I just find them incredibly derivative and cheesy tbh, esp the vocals and production. They’re like bargain bin versions of Genesis, Metallica, and Rush imo. Not a knock to DT of course, amazing musicians and great guys too. I really love Opeth for prog metal, love Mikael’s vocals and the contrast of soft and metal. I like Pawn Hearts by VDG but I really have to be in the mood for it, the vocals can grate on me sometimes. I really like Magma’s first album because of the jazz influences but again the vocals kind of throw me off. For Soft Machine I absolutely love Bundles with Holdsworth but can’t really get into anything else, Third included. I find the quirkiness annoying and corny tbh. Feel the exact same way, I’ll put on Zappa, Henry Cow or Crimson if I want some avant garde stuff. For some reason when Zappa injects humor it’s actually funny to me. My holy grail of prog bands are Yes, Crimson, and Floyd. I can’t get into Maudlin either but I love Toby’s other band Kayo Dot especially their first album on Zorn’s Tzadik label. Really atmospheric, dark, and heavy at the same time.
I agree with almost everything you say. If you havent heard of Mew , check out albums Frengers, And the Glass Handed Kites. Danish genre blending prog rock. Exceptional. Agree re prog metal exhibitionism, Marillion lack of originality, Camel too sleepy and happy, Soft Machine soft on memorable ideas. Thanks
Excellent video chaps.
If I hate something I do not listen to it. So here are a few bands I do not connect with. They are not bad.
Frank Zappa - he was clever. He knew that. His music makes absolutely no emotional connection with me. (except "Hot Rats" and the track "Ian Underwood whips it out")
Mahavishnu Orchestra - "no softies" means it is like pouring too much salt all over your dinner. "Joy" from Shakti features by far the greatest solo from John McLaughlin
Rush - I start a track and think this is good. By the second track I am bored and by the third track I turn off the album. For years I did not know why. I believe it is because of Neil Peart's drums. I believe music needs the rhythm to be underneath as a foundation for the other musicians. Rush have three soloists side by side playing and for me, it just does not work.
Opeth - years ago on Stuart Maconie's Freak Zone he had a special on Opeth and I was really looking forward to it. I was so disappointed.
Dear Andy, I read that "purposeful provocation" may lead to "a civil lawsuit".
So I will ignore what you said about Soft Machine. I have said before that Soft Machine without Robert Wyatt is not Soft Machine.
And for those feeling fooled by the video's deliberate joke, Soft Machine’s first two albums seem to have invented English whimsy in music (alongside Caravan). Also try and look for the early recordings with Daevid Allen. Andy, I could see your smile when you mentioned Matching Mole (we all know that Robert Wyatt was in Matching Mole. He even sang "O Caroline")
Regarding Klaus Schulze and the synth in general, I would like to propose that it did not just introduce new sounds but was part of introducing a new way of listening. An album may be like putting on a clean shirt, you carry it with you. However, playing synth / ambient etc is like having a piece of furniture. It becomes a part of the room that you move through.
Keep up the good work
When rating Marillion their prog-creds don't really work in their favour. There is not much about the instrumentation that is truly innovative. During the 1980s the band was to a large degree a vehicle for the singer. In Fish, Marillion had a vocalist who had a rare quality in being totally convinced by his own words. Critics may say he's too wordy and too flowery, but Fish believes in his words and that comes across, and that is what I believe what attracted so many to the group, prior to his departure. In that sense the Marillion of the 1980s was much more a singer with a backing band that played songs that happened be influenced by prog, than that it was a prog band that happened to have a couple of popular songs.
Thank you guys! Loved it and learned a lot👍
I’m about 30 minutes in, and you’re common complaints seem to be about a lack of resolution, coming together, landing.
That’s exactly where I find myself vis-a-vis Dream Theatre. They are clearly marvellous players, and they drop many lovely ideas into their songs, but they never seem to arrive.
Rush and Yes somehow managed to plow through, without dumbing down, while still delivering hooks & choruses but to me it often seems DT is riding around the neighbourhood but can’t find the address.
Still…”I should suck like them!!!”😆
Great collaboration guys. 🙏🤘🏻👍
What do you think about Joachim Kuhn and Hip Elegy?
I like it - more jazz fusion but it's funky.
Marillion. Never heard of them so had a listen to ‘Script for a Jester’s Tear’. Thought that was a Nigel Tufnel tune.
I agree with Dream Theater. I now why. They write songs on a white board in order to make things as complicated as and show off as possible rather than with their ears. Emphasise desplays of virtuosity over song writing. Also, they are totally derivative they were really "progressing music". Like you two said it was kind of like a "retread". Once in a while they'll do a slow song and it will sound like a direct attempt to rip off the sound of an acoustic ballad from the Wall.
It was interesting to find out the shortcomings of your minds
Good one, Andy.
For me, Nucleus are a far better version of what Soft Machine ended up doing, and even Robert Wyatt albums are much more special and loveable. But it's a fact that Soft Machine 3 came out half a year earlier than Zappa's Weasels, so it's not a rip off, except for Flesh. The only ever classic Krautrock I ever loved was Amon Duul 2's first 3 albums, and a handful of Can albums: They're all influenced by early Floyd who were regarded as an Underground band, or avant-garde rock, at the time.
List of 5 prog bands that do absolutely nothing for me:
1. Genesis tried to put an AVO on Marillion but failed. No one likes a musical stalker who dresses, talks and walks like the original.
2. Dream Theatre. If you wish to put together a band of great players with immense production values who have a talent for mediocre musical ideas, this is the band for you. A dog with no bite or personality. Listen to their version of Larks Tongues 2 and then put on Crim's U.S.A version afterwards. All will be clear.
3. Tool. The smarty pants, loner guy at the party who suffers from musical Autism. 'One day I will understand what laughing and crying means.'
4. Rush: Let's start off as a bad version of Led Zeppelin and then complicate our music so we become a good version of bad Yes (sorry, Andy). If pushed I could put together a frugal comp that would include Xanadu and a few tracks from Moving Pictures. 2012 would be a drink coaster - cd version of course.
5. Meshuggah: -1-2-2-4-4-3-3-7-7-1-3-3---1. Mathematicians teach at University and that's where they belong. Masters of monotony in timbre, colour, dynamics. Make your own Meshuggah album by playing intricate drum patterns on an airport tarmac next to a jumbo jet and a cargo truck that has engine trouble. Highly entertaining for 15 minutes.
P.S. Paring down my Yes collection to save space. Compilation of 3 albums into one: - Relayer of the One Tormato; 1. Wondrous Stories 2. Awaken. 3. Turning of the Tide. 4. Onwards.5. Gates of Delirium.
Cheers (the Yes comp is a sort of sorry for hating on Rush)
I loved Dream Theater when I first heard them. I bought three albums in quick succession and played them loud and then...the other shoe dropped. Musically their ok, but lyrics and vocals are dreadful.
I am not an English Speaker so I might not get a subtle Twist: Why is Genesis a Copy of Marillion the Original?
Genesis is the Prog Band I love to hit on.
I mean if I could do what they do I would not do what they do. Peter Gabriel as a Promoter of others Music can not be underrated. I owe him 2 Bands I promoted once in my early Twenties. And he made Youssou N‘Dour a World Star. Phil Collins made some really good Jazzrock Fusion.
But I really do not like any Genesis Records.
But please help me out with that Genesis/Marillion Joke. It is a back to the Future DeLorean Thing!
@@erikheddergott5514 Back in the day, early Marillion were accused of being a Genesis knock-off. Usually by people who hadn't listened to either. For some reason, Boy George and Kajagoogoo fans loved to hate on prog.
@@davidmorgan6896 Okay, I might have to ask what an AVO is.
As said: Who does your Sentence blame to be the Copy?
That NME/Melody Maker and a big Crowd of German Speaking Journalists did not like Marillion back in the 80ties is a Fact.
An AVO is a court order you take out to try and prevent someone from having close contact with you when you fear for your safety, so It's Marillion I'm disliking, not Genesis. Especially when it comes to tracks like Garden Party that sound so much like Genesis it's creepy and disturbing. Early Genesis, on the other hand, from Nursery Cryme right up to Trick of the Tail can rightfully boast to have one of the most consistent runs of musical excellence in the prog genre. If someone can't be thrilled by a song like Firth of Fifth, then it doesn't even come down to liking or disliking prog, they just don't get music, period. Even so, whatever songs gets you off, it's a great thing to love and enjoy music of any kind. @@erikheddergott5514
I understand someone not liking VDGG. They are not easy on the ear - for the most part - but they have something you won't get from any other bad, and it is not to be dismissed.
Tangerine Dream kept changing their style, partially due to personnel changes. The soundtrack to the movie Thief was really innovative for the time.
Back in the 1980’s, I.Q. and Twelfth Night sounded similar to some of the new wave bands of the era.😀❤️🎼
I love you guys, and we all have a very similar taste so this is just arguing amongst gentlemen. But God dammit you are so wrong on soft machine. Listening to you guys discount soft machine was just like finger nails on a chalkboard for my ears. Third is the titanic classic. I have been playing that album for 40 years. It is a piece of sublime beauty, they were. They are archetypical Canterbury band. They start it off with that quirky sound on the first two albums third was a classic fourth is excellent. They continue to progress along the early 70s with first art rock and their own special brand of jazz rock prog and then 56 and seven they’re experimenting and growing and then with bundles that is a classic Fusion album with Allan Holdsworth.
Soft machine third period is not a poor man’s Frank Zappa or Mahavishnu orchestra. It’s not attempting that level of virtuosity. what it is is a brilliantly composed with moments of improv, that is really a piece of art jazz Prog rock. The tune moon in June alone is one of the greatest pieces of Prog rock ever.
You are absolutely right!!!!
Andy's picks are spot on. I can't/don't listen to any of those bands with the exception of the occasional attempt to get into Soft Machine (and I do like the early Kevin Ayers stuff).
Currently playing Nibelungen from Klaus Schulze's Rheingold set. Amazing.
I'm in agreement with much of what you say tho'. So much prog is butt.
Please do a video with Notes again.
Well done. I agree with everything said (at least with regards to the bands I know), but was disappointed to hear both of you pan Soft Machine. Although I dislike the first two records (campy, dated psychedelia) and think Six, Seven and Softs are a bit boring, Third and Fourth are absolute jazz-rock masterpieces. I do not think the compositions on those are aimless at all. On tracks like Slightly all the Time and Out-Bloody-Rageous there is ebb-and-flow, mystery, darkness, climatic soloing and moments of sublime beauty. There is certainly an element of danger and a palpable mystique about the band. I don’t consider them a prog band, but rather a highly innovative jazz-rock and experimental group.
My fav prog that are currently in their original form are All Them Witches. I guess I like the old school melodic trippy sound. ELP/Pink Floyd are to prog what Christopher Cross/Michael McDonald are to Yacht rock. I must update my understanding of genres. For myself, Frank Zappa, Tan Dream and Soft Machine are avant garde.
All Them Witches are more psychedelic hard rock/metal to me than prog, but they certainly fall in the prog adjacent camp. I really like them in any case.
Every time one of you mentions the crescendo I hear the end of starless and bible black. Too too good.
I agree with you Andy. I love Rush, they are my favourite band of all time. However, I just can't get into Dream Theater, I want to like them but just can't make the connection.
yep...same here
I do wonder what you think of Echolyn though
I talked about them in my epic history of prog series
To me, some of Peter Hammill's solo albums are even more impressive than VDGG, like Over and Chameleon In The Shadow Of The Night, stunning albums
Marillion are my favourite band, though, I don’t get “ Clutching at Straws “ which is a favourite amongst fans.
For me it’s a bit too dark and a tad depressing.
Interesting episode. Indeed. Indubitably. Personally, l never got into VDGG either.
Cheers from Noo Yawk, ova heyah.
Rock Out and Prog On… in every lexicon!
Your pal & mine,
~ Davey Cretin
Why do we like Rush yet dismiss Dream Theater? Cutting to the chase... I hear a lot of rock & metal clichés in Dream Theatre's music (chug-chug power chords, pit-a-pat tomtoms). I don't hear that in Rush. Also, DT's melodies seem more bland & predictable with the kind of long intros that are very 1970-something. Rush get to the point quicker & with more originality.
You had a nice talk with one exeption:
Both German groups are explicitly not progressive rock groups. It's written boldly and clearly on the cover of Mummien: Cantata. A German cantata has nothing to do with 70s progressive rock, even if it is called a rock cantata. I think the last thing the music-playing cabaret artists from Floh de Cologne wanted was to be stuck in a box with progressive rock groups. Otherwise, just take a look at Wikipedia to be informed who and what Floh de Cologne was.
Schulze was the drummer for tangerine dream for a year, the mastermind was Edgar Froese. Schulze became the mastermind of Ash Ra Tempel. Both groups from the electronic music genre. And just as Steve Reich was not a progressive rock or progressive music representative, neither are these two groups. The next time a patron sends salami, it will then be tested as the worst chocolate bar because the patron said, try this chocolate bar.
😂
Though they are incredible musicians, I feel the same about Dream Theater. It sounds like parts just stuck together, I dont get any journey out if it. It is hard to explain though. I think Rush takes you on a journey, the melody, changes, structures to me are often exciting. Just another opinion though...