Spark plugs - Resistor 'v' Non-resistor - effect on HT voltage
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2018
- Ever wondered what the difference is between a spark plug with an internal resistor is when compared to the older 'non' resistor type?
Well, I have been curious for some time to investigate how, if at all, the HT voltage (spark voltage) is affected by these 'newer' plugs.
After a little research I felt compelled to find out for myself & with the ideal motorcycle on the hoist now seemed the perfect time....
Andy Mechanic 
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This is rarest of rare video on this topic. I never found such a comprehensive analysis on the difference between resistor and non resistor spark plugs
Imagine having resistor spark plug and resistor plug boot, just a miracle that engine actually runs with such a huge resistance.
This comment just made me come to a realization. My used ATV requires a B8ES (non resistor standard) I tried a BR8ES and it would not fire. B8ES fired right up. It has a NGK plug boot. I'm assuming it's probably a resistor boot. Will have to check!
The multiple firing you had observed are exactly what you should be looking for.. This is called ‘ringing’ which is produced when the coils magnetic field collapses across itself producing yet another firing event, then another, and another until there is no energy left in the ringing effect to produce the required energy to bridge the gap. This equates to a longer duration of coil energy across the plug gap which assists in a more complete fuel combustion within the cylinder. Peak voltage on the initial firing is only part of story, coil ringing producing increased spark duration across the plugs electrode is the key to a complete burn👌(Auto elec here with many Bosch courses inc Oacilloscope wave form Interpretation👍)
Thanks Matt, that certainly makes sense. I haven't done any scope training so lots to learn. Ta Andy
Wow what a difference the resistor makes. Id definitely say a non resistor makes less change of misfire throughout the rpm range.
Very helpful video, thanks 👍
Andy
I am so glad that l watched this vid.
I race 2 stroke outboard drag boats and when l test on the lake l live on l have used resister type plugs to keep the complaints down.
Now l know why some of my motors show a drop of up to 400 rpm with the resistor type plugs.
I thought it was fuel ratios or Temps and humidity issues.
F.... them .....let their radios crackle!!!
Keep up the good work!!!
Very informative - I switched to a non-resistor plug and copper-core leads when I when I went kick-only on my HD chop - it made starting much easier and cured an arcing issue I had experienced with an Iridium resistor plug.
Eric O. One of my favorites ! Like the way he diagnoses things !
Great video, I often wondered about the differences between resistor and non-resistor plugs so your video was a good resource. Thanks mate 👍👍👍.
Great info and video. I'm excited to hear how the bike is going on the non R spark plug. Greetings from Norway. 😊
Another good one Andy !!
For sure the added resistance makes for a weaker spark, but that Pico scope seems to be acting more like a current meter than a volt meter. The peak voltage with CDI is based on the charge the capacitor is charged to X the turns ratio of the coil. The peak voltage should be the same in both cases, or very close. With an inductive system, the peak voltage will actually rise higher with a resistor plug because it takes more time to pre-ionize the gap for spark breakdown. Anyway, still a useful tool for diagnosing a weak ignition although I do not believe the Pico scope is representing the peak voltage properly. Perhaps it would be more accurate with a higher energy ignition.
Huge difference. Thanks mate. Love the mechanic helpers too.😄🤪
thanks andy . i was just about to pull a dr350 apart as it bogging down at speed . i was heading in the direction for the carb as the plug looks rich. but took 30 mins to watch this and a quick goggle and its got the wrong plug in . will get the right plug in the morning and hopefully
Super Channel...Greetings from India...
Hi Andy, that's really helpful and gave me a little more understanding about resistor and non-resistor. Im running on an ecu bike, if i run a non-resistor spark plugs, do i need to replace my plugs cap to a resistor type? Can i replace my stock 5k ohm caps to 1k ohm instead? Any side effect on the long run? Tempting to get that high voltage without ruin the coil. 😁Thanks.
thanks andy very usefall video
Nice smart show n thanks have shared more n more, guys
Hi Andy, great video! my question is the sparkplug cap is that non resistor or resistor 5k? thanks in advance!
I just came to look at your "Pretty Shop Fairy Girlies" since I never got to buy a PICO & learn about scope patterns!
You upgraded your Pico.. Nice..
Thank you for info.
This video is deceptive, in that with both plugs, they only fire about one time in five cycles (on the scope). The waveform where there is ringing indicates that the plug is NOT firing. The plateau region is where there is actually "arcing" internal to the cylinder (and fuel ignition). The high voltage only matters in that it has to be "high-enough" to initiate arcing. That voltage varies directly with cylinder pressure (and fuel mix), and inversely to the gap width. Once the arcing is initiated, it will continue until the energy in the CDI (coil/capacitor combination) falls to below where it can sustain the arc. The little pip at that point is the arc extinguishing, and creates a little spike in the voltage. For true "high-energy" ignitions, the LENGTH of the arcing is also important. It is relevant to keep the arcing going throught the entire length of the power-pulse in the cylinder (right up to exhaust valve opening). This allows any unburned fuel in the "swirl" to continue to ignite. This requires a "variable length" CDI, where the spark length is coordinated with the engine speed. The higher speed requires a shorter time, since the piston moves faster. This bike probably has a fixed-length arc, which is too short to ignite mixtures at cranking speed (a common design feature of early CDI ignitions), since they were designed to support higher engine RPMs. I had one of those (Delta) which had a simple SCR-coil-capacitor-plug combo. Worked great at 8000rpm, but could not start a cold car. To make the Wife's bike run better, the plug-gap should be reduced, for starting purposes. The Pico-meter readings are also deceptive, in that the probe is capacitively-coupled to the lead. As such, the Resistor plug will ALWAYS read lower than the non-resistor plug. I am a designer to variable-dwell and variable-timing CDI's, as started in the 1970's. Modern CDI's, with direct-fire at the plug, resolve almost all starting & running problems on any engine, old or new. Maybe just install a better igniton onto this bike, and save a lot of headaches.
Very interesting, and spot on
You can't have both a resistor cap and a resistor plug. It looks like your cap has the required resistor in it already. Two will really drop your spark. If it has a magneto it needs a resistor for radio interference, but only the one. Either in the cap or the plug.
Thanks. Yes, that makes complete sense. Cheers for the info.
Andy
one of the best intros i've seen....lol....
My Mercury outboard calls for Champion RA8HC spark plugs. The engine is missing at times.
I just bought 4 Champion RA8HC spark plugs. The resistance on them is 22ohms, 42 ohms, 45 ohms and 160 ohms. I checked with 2 volt meters. The readings were a little different but very similar. You got 5 ohms. Two were in packages that had been open and taped back up. Are any of them good? Thanks
i NOW can clearly SEE and UnderSTAND why you get all the extra leg into your vid intros.. thank u
What if you do the same experiment but with a system designed for resistor type? Will it go the other way?
Well done. Just to support you, one of my cyclinders on an 1950 Velocette LE200 only kicked in after the first on fired up. On examination it had a resister plug in it. On changing to a similar non resistor plug i got a much better spark. Also, i have found that using a Bosch Transistor coil with a non resistor spark gives a kick-arse spark for starting. Then once its started divert the current through a ballast resistor or stop light globe to stop the coil over heating.
Perfect :-)
WOW, Splendid video, , , Many thanks. I've looked for this info (data) for soooo long, I was going to do it myself, and happened across your presentation. Based on my experience of an extension cord that is too long, burning out the tools (The increased resistance, increases the voltage going to power tools or thin cords, going to appliances), I would have predicted the opposite. Also, the increase in voltage through a coil indicated to me that the increase in resistance might increase the voltage, based on V=IR .
Thanks a bunch,
voltage up ...current down
so are you saying that the resistor was introduced for the benefit of modern engines with complex electronics to reduce interference? will a 4 stroke ride on lawnmower have a resistor type plug or a non resister plug? what about a 2 stroke?
Bloody good video! My thoughts exactly: Why try and get the best ignition equipment and then bugger it up by putting 5k resistor in the mix!
By the way ALL iridium plugs are resistor plugs!
Check your plug cap too in case its resistor ANT the HT cable in case its carbon resistive rather than copper
Any chance of repeating this with an Irridium plug - please
Does 3x the voltage also mean 3x the wear, though? If the resistor type has a longer longevity in some applications (generators, mowers, etc), then perhaps it is worth it despite the weaker spark.
It's so tempting to toss a set of non-resistor plugs in my car, but I can only imagine the damage the RFI would cause to everything! Funny how the well-paid, well-educated team of engineers that design these things just seem to know so much more than the end-user! :D
Yeah, I expect spark burn time will be longer so maybe that's part of their aim. Something I didn't cover in the video....will have to investigate if a longer burn time provides a more complete combustion? So would be better for emissions etc.... I see another video! Cheers Andy
Weird my manual on my yamaha tt600 says resistor plug .8 to .9mm and non resistor .6 to .7mm. Wonder why the non resistor gap is smaller?
I watched the plugs on split screen on my 27 inch PC monitor... To me the big difference in the No R plug is the spark is about twice as wide as the R spark plug... About the same color but much wider spark and more spark...
Hi sir, it is very informative video and indeed i am looking for such information from long time thanks for such a detailed information on 2 types of spark plug behaviour.
And i need to know more because spark plug cap also have resistor in it i have seen it in some videos if we exclude that too then what happens? Does ignition coil life span decreases? Overheating of ignition coil or plug?
Very good practical questions that really are the reason we are here . That's where the video missed the point because we don't know if the information related to the mystery old bike problems ?
Interesting video, hope this tid bit of info helps. Most CDI ignitions use a resistor, either in the plug or as many 80s bikes in the leads / caps. It is not only for RFI blocking though, the resistor limits current draw and many CDI units will have their life shortened if it was designed for a resistor and it is removed, the resistor also changes the timing slightly, the cdi discharge is brief but the added resistor increases the spark duration. If you remove the resistor from either the cap or plug in systems where it was designed you get a shorter spark duration, it can cause hard starting and misfires, very noticable in small engines, replaced plug cap in chainsaw and it didnt have resistor, thing became a nightmare to start until i got a resistor plug to add resistance back, likewise a resistor plug and resistor cap is going to negatively affect performance. You can measure plug cap to see if it is resistive or not, depending on spark plug availability you can often swap out resitive caps for non restive caps and use a resistor plug. And vice versa
Very well explained, Thank You for your feedback & I think viewers will find this info most helpful. Cheers Andy
I' m absolutely agree with you Jo Ni . How to measure a spark plug ? Andy must go back to school to learn more about simple plasma ignition technology
After watching your video , the plug gap is what generate the demand for voltage . So a properly gaped plug at cranking speed will not need 29 kv resistor or not .The only fair way to do that is to use a car and mix the plugs and run the engine , and watch all plugs .Worked on cars for over 50 yrs and have a real analog scope , and did not notice any noticeable difference in voltage . A car at idle use abt 9 KV , and running under 20 , if you really floor it it will go to 25 kv . A coil on a points type ignition will put out a max of 30 KV .
Is there a resister in the sparkplug connector.
Have you ever tried using non resistor sparkplugs _and_ non resistive wires in an ECU (computer controlled) engine?
so can i completely ditch the spark plug caps on my vintage motorcycle or not? and run NO resistor at all? ie points to coils to wires, to regular plugs????
Well, resistor spark plugs, from what I can find out, only came into general production around the late 60's so it's likely that your classic bike should use them. So yes, non resistor plugs are correct... not sure on the plug caps but my gut feeling is that they should not be of the resistor type.
Hope this is of help. Cheers Andy
If you look at a real ignition scope , you will find no difference between the 2 kind of plugs , the gap of the plug affect voltage .. The reason why there is a resistor in the plug is to keep high voltage after the spark to return backward into the plug wire and create interference , the plug wire will act as an antenna and radiate RF .This cause noises in electronics , like radio , tv .
So my little 2 stroke baby generator manual calls for non resistor (cheap Chinese maybe the reason) can I use the resistor plugs I already have (same model plug with R)? Since it has a rotor and stator I wonder if it will cut down on the total harmonic distortion (THD) of the Hz.
Watching your video first lol.
My 2 stroke yard equipment say resistor for Canada lol. But I bought the non resistor because it was 1/3 the cost and all the equipment came to me with non resistor.
The generator is the opposite. Says non resistor but I already have the resistor. Lol. I'm thinking it won't matter on little 2 strokes but glad you're doing a video in depth.
(This question was asked before I watched all of it. So if it answers I'll delete. If it doesn't I'll leave this.
Thanks
Can I request the testing/comparison of both platinum tipped and platinum electrode spark plugs as there are real differences from burn temperature to spark intensity to very minimal voltage/amperage loss that offer real world advantages over traditional mixed alloy electrode plugs. 👍👍
Good call. Yes, I think there will be a lot more on this subject. Cheers Andy
Did you try running the engine with the non-resistor spark plug? From the video it looked like there were missing sparks for both spark plugs (I was expecting to see sparks in sync with the cranking), but it might just have something to do with how it appears in the recording.
The difference in voltage surprises me. The voltage to make an arc that spans the gap should be pretty much constant for both spark plugs (at least during the test). It seems to me that the resistor limits the current once the arc is formed, but it should not affect the voltage for when the arc forms. I mean, the arc needs a certain voltage to form and once the voltage is reached and the arc is formed, then the voltage cannot rise any further. I wonder if the higher measured voltage is due to the way it is measured.
Hmmmm. ..good point. I'll have a think. Cheers Lief
Leif Simmons You seem to know your ignition systems. Good analysis.
@VashthStampeede: I did not mean to imply that I have any expert knowledge in this area. I know nothing about ignition systems. It's just that the result of the measurements does not conform to my (admittedly basic and limited) knowledge about arcing.
The most important test would have been a test ride with resistor VS non resistor plugs, to see if there was any noticeable difference.....I have a small 2 stroke bike, in order to run a tach I need a resistor plug. I haven't tried it yet but am curious if I'd notice any power difference between the 2 different plugs. Both had a blue spark, I figure each plug is making as much spark as the engine needs. The non resistor plug just might be a bit of overkill. When my motorcycle voltage regulator starting bad. It was giving me a yellow/orange spark, the bike would run but ran poorly. Soon as I installed new voltage regulator. I was back to blue spark & the bike ran good again.
So cool. Can you try the plasma idea and test it. I’m talking about the little blue diode x3. I’ve recently added this to my pitbike and can’t really notice any change an was thinking maybe resistor plug?
Great idea....Okay. I'll do some research on it sometime soon and go from there. Thanks for the feedback :-) Cheers Andy
Andy Mechanic thank you. Here’s the best video I’ve seen ruclips.net/video/qQFx1jmgiic/видео.html
Resistor used on Generator inverter? Ngk iridium being used
do your spark plug CAPS have resistors in them, you have resistor plugs your doubling your resistance with the resistor plugs.
Yes I was wondering that as well...could not see marking on the caps in the video....but quite possible. Also, if this is a wasted=spark type ignition system, then doesn't his coil see double the plug resistance (ie 10k Ohm) across the two plugs as it fires them always together? Might explain the greater volt drop btwn the two plug types. And, what did he have on the other plug lead while doing these tests, only showed us one lead.
I swapped my Resistor plugs out with non-resistor plugs and tested it for a few minutes. Seemed ok until the next morning. Within 5min of riding my bike stalled, which is not uncommon for the crazy cold weather and inadequate warm up time (I was in a rush out the door). Unfortunately, my starter simultaneously failed and required a rebuild (new brushes I think?). The starter guy said that the plugs could've been responsible, but every bike mech I talk to say they have nothing to do with each other. I tend to believe the latter, however the timing is VERY suspicious.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Yes, definitely completely unrelated.
Great story though....
All the best. Andy
Often bikes without a resistor have a resistor in the plug cap under the brass fitting.
That 29kv is certainly putting the coil to the big test ,
So could resistor plugs mixed with a resistor spark plug cap cause a misfire?
It would certainly reduce spark burn time which could cause incomplete combustion under some conditions.
Cheers Andy
@@AndyMechanic hmm could possibly be part of the problem I have. Although right now I'm thinking it's a carb issue. Compressions good, coils are good, got spark, got fuel...mostly...front cylinder struggles though and the plug has carbon fouling, thinking either not enough spark to ignite consistently or not enough fuel to burn.
If there wasn't enough fuel then the cylinder would run lean & plug would be very light colour on the electrode. Check that the plug cap ohms rating & plug is to spec - service manual.
I'd go after carb only after above is checked & correct.
Cheers Andy
@@AndyMechanic true! Maybe too much fuel/fuel not being ignited? Plug caps and plugs (minus the plugs have resistors) are to spec for sure
Measurement should me made IR across the internal resistor, reactance/self resonance considerations, results should be in event voltage = joules, bottom line is more energy is delivered to the electrodes w/o resistor, redesign'd ign systems with lower energy would fix emi/emc compliance issues & increase reliability . CDI's fail w/res plugs cause the lightly loaded ign coil secondary creates counter emf overshoot voltage which exceeds the piv rating of the bipolar device(transistor) firing the coil, parallel snubbing zener diode on coil primary is the pref'd fix.
Thanks Randy, most informative. One day I may fully understand the info you have put forward.
Cheers for now
Andy
@@AndyMechanic c
It's odd that the non resistor plug has a higher voltage. I thought it would be the other way around. You should read the voltage with the plug wire off
I am wondering if the spark plug has a resistor in it ?
If it's an NGK spark plug then there will be an 'R' in the plug number if it has a resistor
Cheers Andy
@@AndyMechanic I’m sorry I meant to say. I’m wondering if your motorcycle has a spark plug cap has a resistor in it. I have a 1970 CS3 200 and been having issues with it as well. I have completely restored it. I know it’s not the carburetors or points . Everything has been replaced. I’m an aircraft mechanic so I very thorough.
Ah...good. Yes, motorcycle spark plug caps tend to come in three options, one with no resistor, one with 5 ohms & the 3rd with 10 ohm (from memory!)
I have come across the wrong plug cap been fitted so many times over the years- seems some people aren't even aware of the difference & the effect it has when using the wrong one - they often just select due to shape!
So yes, always check the Service Manual for the correct spec plug cap.
Cheers Andy
Been running non resister spark plugs in my push mower for years for that extra hp,lol😁
Funny!
Muy bueno amigo adios
You just showed the voltage required to ionize the plug gap and create the spark. The actual voltage of the spark is shown with the horizontal line between the vertical spike and the oscillations on the right. It bothers me that the spark line did not exist in every capture of spark plug firing. Every other firing in the sequence was into a non-pressurized exhaust stroke versus a pressurized compression stroke which should take a little more ionization voltage. This is how a waste spark system works. An ignition coil only creates enough voltage to ionize the largest gap, the spark plug gap under pressure is mechanically larger than a wider non-pressurized gap, in the secondary system. The coil itself should be capable of about twice that voltage if need be. Once the gap is ionized and the spark is initiated, the voltage drops to a level to maintain the spark until the coil's energy is depleted. This is the horizontal line mentioned above. Once the spark stops due to lack of energy, the coil dissipates the the remaining energy through oscillations between coil and and primary system until the voltage is back to line voltage, about 14 volts with engine running. I would think it should take about the same voltage to ionize the gap on each type of spark plug, but the spark voltage is where I expected to see a difference. Unfortunately you did not focus on what actually passes through the spark plug, just the voltage it took to create the spark. The non-resistor plug seems to have lost that race because the more energy used to create the spark, the less energy is left to maintain it.
That's really helpful information, Thank You. There will be more on thus issue so I'll update the info given on the next video. Cheers for taking the time to write this. Andy
Uhhhh you do know that if you hold your finger next to the lead its going to measure resistance? the proper way if first calibrate that meter which it looked like it was never zero 'd out... then dont touch the leads and attach to both ends that will be more accurate measuring.
Its using your body becouse you are contacting the circuit with your fingers.
Whaddyya mean lost the right? What kind of police state are you in?
Was wondering why he didn't mess with the gap on the plug. If he is getting a much better spark meaning more voltage to the plug since the resistor is removed, then why not extend the gap on the plug to get a bigger spark?
There is a site called Gadgetmangroove.com who does this among other things to get better performance in an engine.
Since there is a better spark, then why not have a BIGGER spark by widening the gaps?
I have tried a few of the mods on the Gadgetman site and because of these mods I have more power and the exhaust is clean with no burnt fuel smell like before.
Smells like hot air and not a dirty fuel smell. Check out his site - Gadgetmangroove.com
I was looking at the groove, but for $500 is way to high to groove a throttle body, I just wish he had some Dyno pulls to prove the increase in power if any.
Ohm's law: 30000volt / 5000ohm=6 amper 👍👍👍👍🇺🇦💪
the resistor only lowers the sparkcurrent not the voltage!
Incorrect. All resistors create volt drop - basic electrical law.
Andy
nope. if the sparkgap is e.g. 0.8mm and it takes e.g 2kv to jump it. it will do this with and without the resistor. Try measuring a 9V battery with a multimeter directly on the poles, then with a 10K resistor in series. its the same voltage! only the current changes.
@@kamerad1985 Depend on multimeter internal resistance.
@@d.martins4471 Ask yourself. Does it lower the voltage before the spark accours?
Dude...you are messing the reading of the multimeter...you are touching the electrodes... -_-''
Sorry but you have low knowledge of what you are measuring.
A spark is a plasma. Of cause it's importante to get an initial voltage to get the plasma to start but,
It's as important how the plasma behave afterwards. The low flat part on the reading is when the spark has widening to a stable plasma discharge with most energy to heat up and insure ignition of the combustable media. So it's not all aboute the voltage. It's as well aboute the amperage, the time from the first voltage peak to an efficient engaged plasma with power high enough to ignite the air/gas mixture us as important as high voltage that only start the plasma. There are several more factors, parameters, to different circuitry and versions of those that effect the functionality of old ignition systems. Modern electronic ignition circuitry can be designed simple, robust, perfectly controlled but most are not made with enough electronic protection circuitry and by designers knowing little about how plasma forms. Nor how to protect the electronic "boxes" from starter motor backlashes but there's another story.
I've have been working with plasma ignition and electronic design for 25 years.
And now some years in the boat outboard engines industry as well.
Okay, how about running non resistor plugs on a multipoint injection engine governed by an ECU? will damage the ECU ? Will bring some benefits?
I'd seriously consider changing your intro. Your content is much better than that.
Can you get Ali to dress in a cheerleader uniform ?
Haha! I'll ask! Lol
I think the pom poms may be a health and safety issue
where's tool girl Hana
Coming soon....