Makes me wonder how close Ser Clarence Crabb was to being a Faceless Man. He had a hall of heads, a wood's witch for a wife, and seems to have killed a lot of people... Including a king... Plus maybe a squisher. Or so they say.
I completely forgot about this, the heads talk beneath the earth as well, just like we see the lips moving on the faces in the Sanctum beneath the House of Black and White and the lips of the children in Bloodravens cave, I’ll have to look further into this
Just like the soul is left behind in the weirwoods and faces Faceless Men preserve, dragonriders probably leave soul behind in dragons when they die like wargs do in their animals, and it may remain even after dragon dies. Just as Arya thinks someone watches her from the empty sockets of the faces, she does so as well about empty sockets of dragon skulls "Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her." Valyrian steel could be another vessel, given the Lightbringer myth
You always come up with four or five things I've completely failed to notice. The hair color parallels, the description of the Waif, etc. Your theory about the Children of the Forest purging both the Others and the zombie slaves of the Valyrians is looking more solid with each video. Thank you for making this series!
I’ve been watching ASoiAF videos for a loooong time. This is the first new theory I’ve seen in quite a while and damn!! It’s brilliant! It certainly gives me new ideas and insight, so thank you for that!
If Boltons could do Faceless Men magic and we know they flayed defeated Starks, chances are we had ASOIAF version of Uther Pendragon/Igraine legend, making Starks, including Arya, quite literally Boltons. Case in point King Brandon Ice Eyes man associated with human sacrifice. He inherited from his great-grandfather during whose reign Starks had both wars with Boltons and civil wars.
The black gate seems more like a glamour to me, it moves,it speaks, its.. not what it seems. This video, is so well articulated, clever and insightful, you did a great job Eldric, proud of you bud!
Why though? It's still a magical door that opens. You just replaced one magical element with another for no reason. Where as glamouring a person is a useful storytelling trick to play with identity.
I also want to note that just as Bran and Arya are parallel characters, as discussed here, Jon and Jaqen are parallel characters as well. I’ve written extensively on my Quora Theory page about my theory that Jaqen H’ghar is the real Aegon VI, Rhaegar’s oldest son. I believe Arthur Dayne disappears for Robert’s Rebellion bc Rhaegar had him switch babies (exactly the way Jon has Sam switch babies including a ship to Braavos with the switched baby) and take Aegon to Braavos to be raised by the Faceless Men exactly as the Waif’s father brought her to them to be raised. Jaqen has Aragorn symbolism: he’s introduced as a scary figure amidst drinking at an inn like Strider in Bree. He’s stained and dirty and a killer but soon he’ll be saving Arya’s life just like Strider will be saving Frodo’s life. Jaqen also has Odysseus symbolism: he’s the faceless king trying to regain the throne and get vengeance on the suitors by telling everyone he is “no one.” Everyone would have been trying to kill Aegon VI if they knew he lived, that would be the purpose for Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne to send him to the Faceless Men to protect, raise, and train for the War for the Dawn and the future restoration of House Targaryen. The Stark loss of Winterfell to the Boltons parallels the Targaryen loss of Kings Landing to the Baratheons: and Lannisters. It’s a double retelling of the story of the Odyssey and Jaqen recognizes Arya is in the exact same position now as a dispossessed, faceless Stark as he is as a dispossessed, faceless Targaryen believed dead but alive. Why does Jaqen offer three lives to Arya like an efreet-a magical demon of fire-to recruit her, yes. But why does he specifically suggest Cersei and try to talk her into picking Joffrey the King as the third life for her to pick? Because Jaqen has his own list and he’s out to avenge his mother Elia and his father Rhaegar and the people on Jaqen’s own personal long-term list are Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey. There is probably some kind of secret long term relationship between the House of Black and White and the Targaryens mirroring the long-term relationship of the Starks to the weirwoods, especially at Winterfell and the Night Fort. Just as the Starks have been linked to the weirwoods for the thousands of years, the Targaryens probably worked with the Faceless Men to destroy Valyria and have been secretly connected for the last 300 years. Is the Kindly Man a Targaryen or at least a descendant of the original Black Pearl and the Targaryen prince who took her as a lover: I think it’s quite possible but I have no proof. But we do have a lot of hidden evidence that Jaqen is Aegon from his high cheekbones and tall handsome looks that cause women in Harrenhal to follow him around like women followed Rhaegar, to his interactions with Arya in Harrenhal at the heart tree where Rhaegar and Lyanna probably met and talked, to Arya saving Jaqen from fire in the burning barn where Jaqen was born again amidst smoke and salt himself, like Dany before him and Jon afterward. The three heads of the dragon are actually Dany, Jon (Aemon), and Jaqen (Aegon), with Jon and Jaqen being Andal versions of the names Aemon and Aegon. Bran is the Stark heir and Jaqen is actually the true Targaryen heir. Dany and Sansa have mirror roles as the female heirs but not the actual legal heirs by tradition. Jon has the same role in both families as he appears to be the heir because everyone thinks Bran and Aegon are dead, but Bran escaped to the weirwood cave underground and Aegon VI escaped to the House of Black and White underground like Arya. Finally I want to note all the weirwood symbolism in Arya VII in A Clash of Kings read by David Lightbringer last weekend: The northmen go down into the dungeon underneath a tower like the souls of the dead into the roots of a weirwood. Then it’s Jaqen H’ghar-I say Targaryen-along with Arya that go down and kill the jailers and let all the northern out so that they come back up above ground, alive again, to kill the Lannisters in Harrenhal. You see Jaqen H’ghar in this chapter playing the key role of the original Azor Ahai, perhaps, and of Bran now in the north, and the last thing he does in the chapter is change his face to grow a scar on one cheek like Jon and change his red and white hair into black curls also like Jon. Symbolically, in Arya VII, Jaqen goes from Rhaegar Targaryen at a heartwood tree with Arya / Lyanna Stark, to the original Azor Ahai, to Bran Stark, to Jon Snow! A Theory of Ice & Fire space on Quora for more
Just when I think I've heard every theory/connection this one shows up, and is the one I should have seen on my own! Awesome video and instantly my favourite ASOIAF theory.
Yeah I think so, makes you wonder if a persons spirit can slip into anything with a face, say for example the stone faces beneath the rainwood, perhaps you can carve a face in something and store your spirit within see through its eyes
@eldric.stoneskin That makes me think back to the Kings under Winterfell. Could they be slipped into as well? The children themselves carved the faces on the weird woods and go on to live through the tree, I wonder if they can only live on in the ones with faces and who taught them to do that?
Yeaaaaaaah boiiiiii theory time here we goooooo (Edit after watching full video) No longer surprised by your genius level of observation. Mad respect as your theories have brought a fresh breath of life and perspective back into this fantasy world. I only hope our excitement for your content doesn’t make you feel pressured to please us, as I love and appreciate your work. Shit always goes hard 🍻
Well said, I completely agree. Both this channel and Michael Talks About Stuff have been a great addition to the fandom, and I always look forward to their new uploads
Very interesting! Reminds me of a theory from the channel Shiva's Right Foot, stating that the Old Gods may be precursors to the Faith of the Seven, as the forest is the temple of the Old Gods, meaning the other trees are also important aspects of the weirwood. Also the spiral symbol the Children of the Forest have in the show has seven arms.
In the show, the drowned god was also present in the faceless men’s temple. Additionally, if naga’s ribs are petrified weirwoods, then the Iron Islands were also once an isle of faces.
Yeah I think the drowned god is another interpretation of the old gods as well, we hear that the grey king was associated with a demon tree named Ygg, we also see their early priests carrying weirwood staffs, with the belief that their god drown referring to the god drowning in the “green sea” of the weirwoods
Back in like 2017 I read Skin Trade by George R.R. Martin. It's about werewolves. In it, a man kills and skins a werewolf and wears the bloody skin like a coat in an attempt to harness the power of the werewolf. I think GRRM borrowed this for ASOIAF with the Boltons skinning Starks in the past in an attempt to steal their power.
Yeah it’s a great story, I found a lot of parallels between Jonathan Harmon and his deranged son Steven Harmon, and Roose Bolton and his deranged son Ramsey Bolton too, lots of skin wearing power stealing for sure
A really good video. I did found many of the parallels you talked about before, but I was really surprised how you were able to find a potential inspiration from mythology. Very clever. The faceless men and their training of Arya will definitely be really important in winds of winter. Maybe they will reveal to her some magical way how to effectively kill undead? House of black and white is also the only place in the main story where the lion of night appears. I believe that the legend of the long night from Yi Ti has to be some kind of clue and the way the legend represented lion of night is very weird if it's meant to be the others parallel. Why did pearl emperor created the five forts if the line of emperors wasn't corrupted yet with wickedness of men? Lion of night only attacked with his demon army to punish humanity for bloodstone emperor blood betrayal. If god on earth didn't found the need to create the five forts during his rule, then why his own son decided to do it the moment he became the emperor? The wickedness came from line of emperors becoming more human with every generation and it seemed like early emperors weren't aware of it and wouldn't try to prevent the lions rage in the future, because if they knew they would share the targaryen tradition of incest to prevent becoming more human. Why then pearl feared the lion so much? God on earth came from a union between light and dark after all(like Jon, potential azor ahai, from fire and ice). Maybe it's meant to be a hint that the wall was created before the long night? Maybe it shows great empire of the dawn betraying the lion of night, even though their leader came from the union between light and dark? Also how does it tie with the constant maiden made of light and lion of night symbolism present in elden ring? Marika and Godfrey and Miquella and Radahn are of course meant to mirror each other, but they are still clear parallels to the 2 asoiaf gods. Marika and Godfrey are suppose to represent the great and glorious past that Miquella tries to recreate. Is in that case Godwyn a parallel to god on earth? -god is a part of their names, -both leave behind a blessed lineage, -both are connected to pearls(oyster face, pearl son and palanquin) Godfrey and Radahn are both the good ones compared to Marika and Miqella. Lion of night is also only shown punishing humanity for the blood betrayal and is being worshipped in modern day. If lion is meant to symbolise the others and long night, that would make the others originally positive beings that were betrayed. I don't believe that the show origin of the others will be the same in the books. If this train of thought leads to anything, it would lead to the theory that the others or children of the forest were betrayed by humanity, so they wouldn't come from a time of active war between humans and children. They would come from breaking of a pact(similar or the same one green men are suppose to guard) (Also I wrote this theory while waiting for your video. Now I see that lion and maiden could both symbolise the black and the white of weirwood/faceless men.)
A lot of good points here, your right about the repeating maiden and lion archetype in Elden Ring and ASOAIF, Marika and Godfrey (Serosh), Miquella and Radahan (Red Lion), Maiden made of Light and Lion of Night, that’s really interesting, I’m going to do a bit more research and get back to you The clear symbolic Lions would be the Lannisters so trying to think as to how this might fit the pattern as well
@@eldric.stoneskin that makes me think that this is an instance of one of George's ideas that came to him after writing majority of asoiaf world. He often likes to reimagine and reuse his fantasy elements and maybe elden ring was the first time he used lion and maiden archetypes in a big way. This has to be an important and powerful idea in his head if he used it as a different depiction of the long night. Otherwise, I have no idea how Godfrey or Radahn would be connected to the others in a symbolical way.
@@eldric.stoneskin I also thought about the lannisters at first, but it gave me an even bigger headache. The only counterpart in lannisters to this archetype are Cersei and Jaime, but to me they are to similar to each other. Lion and Maiden are meant to be complete opposites and while Jaime does go through a lot of changes and by the end I believe he will completely reject all that Cersei is, I just have hard time believing they belong in the same space in George's head. Also what would even the symbolical meaning be? With compering asoiaf and elden ring to each other there is a lot of freedom, because they aren't connected storywise and we are just looking at similarities. When looking at symbolism in a single series we need more.
Considering that Williams and Martin both live at the top of the Mesoamerican world and have for decades, I can't see why Martin wouldn't draw from Aztec mythology. The grave goods up here have included Macaws and there's a ball court over towards Arizona. I mean if Martin wasn't into this bag, why would he buy and restore something like the Kiva theater? As a side note, when Art Deco met the general Pueblo style, something really cool and really brief appeard.
@@eldric.stoneskin I think it’s thematic. The valyrians mining and blood magic were crimes against nature. They were repaid with a natural disaster. CotF super weapons of choice are ‘natural’ disaster. They represent the spirit of nature itself, being victimized and punishing humanity.
Shouldn’t haven’t labeled this as a theory because it’s 100% accurate- as confirmed in Elden Ring You’ll see a lot of commonality between these conclusions and what I will be presenting in my next Elden Ring video Nox = Faceless Men Shaman = Children of the Forest Loved this video, I would love to see if the Bolton connections are more than *skin deep* 😂
Thanks mate! Yeah the Shaman/COTF comparison makes a lot of sense, hopefully we don’t find the children shoved into great jars in the Winds of Winter 🤣
This is a theory I've heard before, but now I get a more in depth video on it. Fantastic. It's one I've considered (after being made aware of it) Edit: On FB, I saw this Game of Thrones short video. I forget what. But I had mentioned The Night's King/Lord Bolton theory (the Night's King being every Lord Bolton through the centuries) but I didn't remember the full theory. Now it makes more sense.
@eldric.stoneskin i was 1 min into this video, and i was convinced and in agreement with this theory!! Youve done it again 🍻 In your upcoming stream with David Lightbringer, please PLEEASE bring this theory, along with the Stone Stark Kings & the King under the Mountain theories to him. As far as im aware he hasnt yet picked up on these trends and you have a good chance of blowing his brains, just like youve done to us here.😅 Im pretty sure he'll also appreciate your technique of tracking the symbolism behind these theories and will probably add to your theories in the process. Well done man!! This video made my day ❤
Something jumped out at me a while ago when I was I contemplating sigils and house words. The Stark sigil is a dire wolf on an "ice" white field. Not just white, but ice white. We tend to consider ice as blue, and there are references in the books to support that, but we also have the ice white field. What's interesting is if you consider ice as white then look at their leaves the combo stands out. The red is blood/fire, and the white is ice. Which brought to mind a question, do weirwoods sing? It weirwoods combine ice and fire symbols, and they sing, what would you call their song? In the real world we have the Yin Yang, which is both black and white, and ice and fire. Casting this contrast in a similar light. If one is ice white (wight) then can we flip the opposite and say fire black? Shade trees would then combine a black fire with the more common blue ice, making them ice and fire as well. If the ebony of the doors is meant as a reference to Shade trees then the doors are doors of ice and fire. If we recast black in light of the contrast and association with Targs, then the NW in black is fire that burns against the cold. There are several more aspects of the Bran, Arya, and even Theon contrast I look forward to you exploring. But, I thought it might be interesting to consider the weirwoods, shadewoods, and HoBW in the context of their symbolism suggested in the story. And ask the question, do these trees sing? What would we title their song? If the dead live on within them, do the dead keep singing? More relevant to this theory as far as you've gone, why is the Last Hero nameless? Arya lost her friends, her horse, her dog, and finally her sword. Very, very interesting.
They’re definitely singing adjacent at the least, they are tended by those who sing the song of earth and even have singers inside the weirwoods, we even see horns being a musical instrument associated with them as well And the Red/White colouring and the Blue/Black colouring are examples of balance just as Black/White and Red/Blue are for sure, and I think is why we see the house of black and white having these colours as well, so they can bring normality back to the life and death cycle, just as the song of ice and fire Jon Snow will We even find this black and white association with Jon who is not only Ice and fire but also a Black brother with a white wolf, just as Bloodraven is a black brother with white albino skin, and another hero character Dany even having a black dragon and a white dragon, all of these Black and white associated characters including Arya and Bran are black and white associated because they’ll bring balance back to the life and death cycle and the cycle of the seasons
I’ve seen their stuff, they think Jaquen Hghar is the many faced god, and the old gods and the many faced god are completely different with one being faceless and one having many faces, which is not at all what I’m suggesting
If you want to really tie this together, I think the past arya is drinking is shade of the evening. The tree is black with blue leaves. A reversal. Black and white. And one thing I've seen is when the children of the forest broke the arm of dorne. It's severed the trees so they could have all been won and now they're different but they're similar. I don't know. I always thought it ties into what you're saying and strengthens it
No, they worship the Great Other. Same as the Faith of the Seven, the other six are a relatable smokescreen to lure peasants into The Stranger's arms and the main thing about the Faith is that they HATE magic, the Weirwoods, the Children, the Giants, the Red God, and the First Men, even Aegon the Conqueror had to "convert" to the Faith and forsake the 14 deities of his ancestors (y'know, the fire gods that granted magic and dragons so Valyria could grow to rule most of the world, trying to set up armies of dragons and fire wielding sorcerors to counter the inevitable 2nd Long Night) just to rule; all of whom either are or were enemies of the White Walkers. Without Valyria, mankind lost any hope of victory so now the best they can hope for is a stalemate or truce by the end similar to the Children and the First Men; "One side knew they could not win and the other side didn't want to pay the cost to do so". When Valyria fell, only the Faith of the Seven and the Faceless Men were happy and untouched by the chaos that followed for practically everyone else. Even in 300A.C. they still mock the Doomed Dragonlords, claiming the Seven struck them down and these people would deny facts to pretend they're right all the way up until wights choke them to death without ever lifting a finger to help "lying tree worshipping heathens", ignoring the fact that three seperate races of extremely practical peoples that were litterally starved of resources all gathered to build a wall 700 ft high from one ocean to the next and never once complained or thought this was a bad idea. Also, they love to gloss over how the Empire of the Dawn, predecessors to Yi-Ti whom keep meticulous records of history (yet no Maester ever admitted to learning the language or reading said histories, even though that would be a very scholarly thing to do) like the Ancient Chinese they are based off of had apparantly thought it was also a good idea to construct a similar project to the Wall in the Five Forts to guard against "demons and corpses from the Gray Waste" and unlike Westeros these forts are still fully manned. It must be coincendence that they built hude defenses specifically designed to protect them from either titanic foes, enemies with numbers in the millions, or both around the same time as the First Men/Children/Giants decided to build the Wall. "There's no practical use for such resource intensive, time consuming edifices or any reason behind why so many were willing to kill/die to protect said defenses. Had to be a vanity project. Magic is gone from the world, we made it disappear so no one else could possibly use it. Ignore the cries of "HELP US" from the Night's Watch, ignore the warnings of "dead things in the water", ignore the rumors of dragons being hatched from petrified eggs, and most of all...acolye, I told you before to put out those burning glass candles! Their light is too bright for these old eyes to even see my own writing!"
CotF believe weirwoods are the old gods and when they die they become part of that godhood and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods. That means each weirwood is Many Goded Face
You make a few crucial jumps in logic here. I think there is some clear parallels being made and you provide some great examples of them but for example i dont think we see any evidence of the boltons worshipping weirwoods like you said and iirc they are described as warring with the kings of winter in the age of heroes but never once mentioned as having been there since the long night like you said. Also you entirely ignore that all the faceless man iconography is half ebony, maybe like the shade of the evening trees. Clearly hints at something other than just weirwood magic at play. I think the more likely explanation for the similarity is that there is only 1 or 2 types of magic in asoiaf and both groups are interpretting the same magics or same ancient prophecy or dream in a lovecraftian kind of way similar to how all the targaryens dreamt of dany hatching dragons and thought it was them.
The Boltons existed during the long night - “The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed.” - The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter The Boltons worship weirwoods as they’re a first man northern culture, with Ramsey even being married in front of a heart tree in a tradition northern wedding The weirwood magic is very much tied to the shade of the evening trees and use this same magic as you’ve said and ill be covering this aspect of the symbolism in an upcoming video
@eldric.stoneskin fair enough on the long night point I stand corrected, I haven't read the world of ice and fire. However I don't think the married in front of the tree is strong evidence since the whole point there is they are following stark customs and Northern customs in winterfell as part of the whole mummers farce. I don't even recall a mention of a heart tree at the dreadfort but then I was wrong on the other point.
Please tell me WHAT Howland Reed was doing all that time at the Isle of Faces? Training like Arya? Honing his magics like Arya,being a crannogman that's part COTF?
Whatever it was I think it has something to do with the fact that Howlands son Jojen Reed, was the key player in getting Bran to Bloodraven and the Old Gods
@eldric.stoneskin basically Howland sent his children as a sacrifice ( Meera to protect Jojen,and Jojen as weirwood snack) but I feel Howland had to have more to do,like h😮e's in plain sight more than we know. In lore,didn't the COTF sacrifice their children for magical results?
I don't jest. If not the exact use of the word nanomachines that's what it can all be attributed to. An extra terrestrial black goop that learns grows and assimilates that was reactivated by a signal from the passing comet. Probably happens every few thousand years. A forgotten terraforming experiment? A weapon test? Who knows. It doesn't matter. The lives of humans are fleeting compared to the gods and their games.
I like the videos but I'm at a point where I believe neither of the final two books will ever come out. So these videos just depress me cause they're interesting theories for questions which will never be answered.
@eldric.stoneskin so many great theories and videos have been so much more compelling and entertaining than the last seasons of GoT. Lots of great talent! Thanks for your hard work and insights!!❤❤❤❤
Wow, another blinder. I'm a little disappointed tho, if Bran and Arya are paralleling each other's story then that's actually one less storyline George is giving us.
Makes me wonder how close Ser Clarence Crabb was to being a Faceless Man. He had a hall of heads, a wood's witch for a wife, and seems to have killed a lot of people... Including a king... Plus maybe a squisher.
Or so they say.
I completely forgot about this, the heads talk beneath the earth as well, just like we see the lips moving on the faces in the Sanctum beneath the House of Black and White and the lips of the children in Bloodravens cave, I’ll have to look further into this
that's so cool. also love George combine all of these folk ideas. such a fun puzzle/riddle to untangle.
I love reading quality comments like this @beevie4081
Just like the soul is left behind in the weirwoods and faces Faceless Men preserve, dragonriders probably leave soul behind in dragons when they die like wargs do in their animals, and it may remain even after dragon dies. Just as Arya thinks someone watches her from the empty sockets of the faces, she does so as well about empty sockets of dragon skulls "Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her." Valyrian steel could be another vessel, given the Lightbringer myth
You always come up with four or five things I've completely failed to notice. The hair color parallels, the description of the Waif, etc.
Your theory about the Children of the Forest purging both the Others and the zombie slaves of the Valyrians is looking more solid with each video. Thank you for making this series!
No worries at all! Thanks for watching and commenting! 💀🍻
I’ve been watching ASoiAF videos for a loooong time. This is the first new theory I’ve seen in quite a while and damn!! It’s brilliant! It certainly gives me new ideas and insight, so thank you for that!
You’re very welcome!
If Boltons could do Faceless Men magic and we know they flayed defeated Starks, chances are we had ASOIAF version of Uther Pendragon/Igraine legend, making Starks, including Arya, quite literally Boltons. Case in point King Brandon Ice Eyes man associated with human sacrifice. He inherited from his great-grandfather during whose reign Starks had both wars with Boltons and civil wars.
The black gate seems more like a glamour to me, it moves,it speaks, its.. not what it seems.
This video, is so well articulated, clever and insightful, you did a great job Eldric, proud of you bud!
Why though?
It's still a magical door that opens.
You just replaced one magical element with another for no reason.
Where as glamouring a person is a useful storytelling trick to play with identity.
Thanks! Really appreciate the support! 💀🍻
I really appreciate you adding the Mexica mythology.
I also want to note that just as Bran and Arya are parallel characters, as discussed here, Jon and Jaqen are parallel characters as well.
I’ve written extensively on my Quora Theory page about my theory that Jaqen H’ghar is the real Aegon VI, Rhaegar’s oldest son. I believe Arthur Dayne disappears for Robert’s Rebellion bc Rhaegar had him switch babies (exactly the way Jon has Sam switch babies including a ship to Braavos with the switched baby) and take Aegon to Braavos to be raised by the Faceless Men exactly as the Waif’s father brought her to them to be raised.
Jaqen has Aragorn symbolism: he’s introduced as a scary figure amidst drinking at an inn like Strider in Bree. He’s stained and dirty and a killer but soon he’ll be saving Arya’s life just like Strider will be saving Frodo’s life.
Jaqen also has Odysseus symbolism: he’s the faceless king trying to regain the throne and get vengeance on the suitors by telling everyone he is “no one.” Everyone would have been trying to kill Aegon VI if they knew he lived, that would be the purpose for Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne to send him to the Faceless Men to protect, raise, and train for the War for the Dawn and the future restoration of House Targaryen.
The Stark loss of Winterfell to the Boltons parallels the Targaryen loss of Kings Landing to the Baratheons: and Lannisters. It’s a double retelling of the story of the Odyssey and Jaqen recognizes Arya is in the exact same position now as a dispossessed, faceless Stark as he is as a dispossessed, faceless Targaryen believed dead but alive.
Why does Jaqen offer three lives to Arya like an efreet-a magical demon of fire-to recruit her, yes. But why does he specifically suggest Cersei and try to talk her into picking Joffrey the King as the third life for her to pick?
Because Jaqen has his own list and he’s out to avenge his mother Elia and his father Rhaegar and the people on Jaqen’s own personal long-term list are Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey.
There is probably some kind of secret long term relationship between the House of Black and White and the Targaryens mirroring the long-term relationship of the Starks to the weirwoods, especially at Winterfell and the Night Fort. Just as the Starks have been linked to the weirwoods for the thousands of years, the Targaryens probably worked with the Faceless Men to destroy Valyria and have been secretly connected for the last 300 years.
Is the Kindly Man a Targaryen or at least a descendant of the original Black Pearl and the Targaryen prince who took her as a lover: I think it’s quite possible but I have no proof.
But we do have a lot of hidden evidence that Jaqen is Aegon from his high cheekbones and tall handsome looks that cause women in Harrenhal to follow him around like women followed Rhaegar, to his interactions with Arya in Harrenhal at the heart tree where Rhaegar and Lyanna probably met and talked, to Arya saving Jaqen from fire in the burning barn where Jaqen was born again amidst smoke and salt himself, like Dany before him and Jon afterward.
The three heads of the dragon are actually Dany, Jon (Aemon), and Jaqen (Aegon), with Jon and Jaqen being Andal versions of the names Aemon and Aegon. Bran is the Stark heir and Jaqen is actually the true Targaryen heir. Dany and Sansa have mirror roles as the female heirs but not the actual legal heirs by tradition. Jon has the same role in both families as he appears to be the heir because everyone thinks Bran and Aegon are dead, but Bran escaped to the weirwood cave underground and Aegon VI escaped to the House of Black and White underground like Arya.
Finally I want to note all the weirwood symbolism in Arya VII in A Clash of Kings read by David Lightbringer last weekend: The northmen go down into the dungeon underneath a tower like the souls of the dead into the roots of a weirwood.
Then it’s Jaqen H’ghar-I say Targaryen-along with Arya that go down and kill the jailers and let all the northern out so that they come back up above ground, alive again, to kill the Lannisters in Harrenhal.
You see Jaqen H’ghar in this chapter playing the key role of the original Azor Ahai, perhaps, and of Bran now in the north, and the last thing he does in the chapter is change his face to grow a scar on one cheek like Jon and change his red and white hair into black curls also like Jon. Symbolically, in Arya VII, Jaqen goes from Rhaegar Targaryen at a heartwood tree with Arya / Lyanna Stark, to the original Azor Ahai, to Bran Stark, to Jon Snow!
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Another super thought-provoking video! Thanks Eldric, A Theory of Ice & Fire
Glad you enjoyed it!
23:33 WOW this is the first time I've ever heard of this legend, and its never been linked with ASOIAF before! Well done
Yay! The worm in the Kindly Man’s eye and Blood Raven’s eye root! I thought that was just me who saw that! ❤
Just when I think I've heard every theory/connection this one shows up, and is the one I should have seen on my own! Awesome video and instantly my favourite ASOIAF theory.
Cheers! 💀🍻
Eldric Stoneskin is the only RUclipsr I've seen in recent years that comes up with consistently fresh theories. Keep it up man 👍
Your theories are always insanely good.
Thanks mate 💀🍻
Wow, I can't believe I'd never connected Jaquen hair with the weirdwood. To be honest, no one has made that connection. Great video.
Thank you! Makes my early morning shift go easier ❤
Do you think that's why they carve faces in the trees? Do the Greenseers can put on the trees' faces just like the faces the faceless men use.
Yeah I think so, makes you wonder if a persons spirit can slip into anything with a face, say for example the stone faces beneath the rainwood, perhaps you can carve a face in something and store your spirit within see through its eyes
@eldric.stoneskin That makes me think back to the Kings under Winterfell. Could they be slipped into as well? The children themselves carved the faces on the weird woods and go on to live through the tree, I wonder if they can only live on in the ones with faces and who taught them to do that?
This was incredible! The Flayed God myth at the end is something I've never heard before
Yeaaaaaaah boiiiiii theory time here we goooooo
(Edit after watching full video)
No longer surprised by your genius level of observation. Mad respect as your theories have brought a fresh breath of life and perspective back into this fantasy world. I only hope our excitement for your content doesn’t make you feel pressured to please us, as I love and appreciate your work. Shit always goes hard 🍻
Glad you liked it! I’m really enjoying putting this out into the fandom so no pressure at all, really appreciate the support mate 🍻
Well said, I completely agree. Both this channel and Michael Talks About Stuff have been a great addition to the fandom, and I always look forward to their new uploads
@@jsull81 Thanks!
@@eldric.stoneskin thank you! It may be recency bias, but this is one of my favorite videos of yours
Very interesting! Reminds me of a theory from the channel Shiva's Right Foot, stating that the Old Gods may be precursors to the Faith of the Seven, as the forest is the temple of the Old Gods, meaning the other trees are also important aspects of the weirwood. Also the spiral symbol the Children of the Forest have in the show has seven arms.
This was awesome. Pointed out a lot of parallels I hadn’t noticed . Prolly one of my favorite videos from you so far.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! 💀🍻
For the Algorithm ser, incredible video!
All I have to say is WOW! It never struck me that the Old Gods and the Many Faced God were the same. Well done.
Cheers! 💀🍻
Dang this is pretty compelling! Well done
Thanks!
Another excellent video. Top-tier.
Cheers! 💀🍻
Thanks,man! This is so amazing!It's right in your face!Love this,nice work!!!
I see what you did there 🤣
@@eldric.stoneskin 🥰😂🤣
In the show, the drowned god was also present in the faceless men’s temple. Additionally, if naga’s ribs are petrified weirwoods, then the Iron Islands were also once an isle of faces.
Yeah I think the drowned god is another interpretation of the old gods as well, we hear that the grey king was associated with a demon tree named Ygg, we also see their early priests carrying weirwood staffs, with the belief that their god drown referring to the god drowning in the “green sea” of the weirwoods
Saw you on David Lightbringers channel. I have to say, I feel right at home here. Great analysis!
Thanks for checking out the channel!
Back in like 2017 I read Skin Trade by George R.R. Martin. It's about werewolves. In it, a man kills and skins a werewolf and wears the bloody skin like a coat in an attempt to harness the power of the werewolf. I think GRRM borrowed this for ASOIAF with the Boltons skinning Starks in the past in an attempt to steal their power.
Yeah it’s a great story, I found a lot of parallels between Jonathan Harmon and his deranged son Steven Harmon, and Roose Bolton and his deranged son Ramsey Bolton too, lots of skin wearing power stealing for sure
Great video! Found your channel from your stream with Lml and can't wait to watch 😁
Thanks for checking the channel out!
bro is back
Great video, I’m glad LmL sent me your way.
Thanks for checking it out!
A really good video. I did found many of the parallels you talked about before, but I was really surprised how you were able to find a potential inspiration from mythology.
Very clever.
The faceless men and their training of Arya will definitely be really important in winds of winter. Maybe they will reveal to her some magical way how to effectively kill undead?
House of black and white is also the only place in the main story where the lion of night appears. I believe that the legend of the long night from Yi Ti has to be some kind of clue and the way the legend represented lion of night is very weird if it's meant to be the others parallel.
Why did pearl emperor created the five forts if the line of emperors wasn't corrupted yet with wickedness of men?
Lion of night only attacked with his demon army to punish humanity for bloodstone emperor blood betrayal.
If god on earth didn't found the need to create the five forts during his rule, then why his own son decided to do it the moment he became the emperor?
The wickedness came from line of emperors becoming more human with every generation and it seemed like early emperors weren't aware of it and wouldn't try to prevent the lions rage in the future, because if they knew they would share the targaryen tradition of incest to prevent becoming more human.
Why then pearl feared the lion so much?
God on earth came from a union between light and dark after all(like Jon, potential azor ahai, from fire and ice).
Maybe it's meant to be a hint that the wall was created before the long night?
Maybe it shows great empire of the dawn betraying the lion of night, even though their leader came from the union between light and dark?
Also how does it tie with the constant maiden made of light and lion of night symbolism present in elden ring?
Marika and Godfrey and Miquella and Radahn are of course meant to mirror each other, but they are still clear parallels to the 2 asoiaf gods.
Marika and Godfrey are suppose to represent the great and glorious past that Miquella tries to recreate. Is in that case Godwyn a parallel to god on earth?
-god is a part of their names,
-both leave behind a blessed lineage,
-both are connected to pearls(oyster face, pearl son and palanquin)
Godfrey and Radahn are both the good ones compared to Marika and Miqella.
Lion of night is also only shown punishing humanity for the blood betrayal and is being worshipped in modern day.
If lion is meant to symbolise the others and long night, that would make the others originally positive beings that were betrayed.
I don't believe that the show origin of the others will be the same in the books.
If this train of thought leads to anything, it would lead to the theory that the others or children of the forest were betrayed by humanity, so they wouldn't come from a time of active war between humans and children. They would come from breaking of a pact(similar or the same one green men are suppose to guard)
(Also I wrote this theory while waiting for your video. Now I see that lion and maiden could both symbolise the black and the white of weirwood/faceless men.)
A lot of good points here, your right about the repeating maiden and lion archetype in Elden Ring and ASOAIF, Marika and Godfrey (Serosh), Miquella and Radahan (Red Lion), Maiden made of Light and Lion of Night, that’s really interesting, I’m going to do a bit more research and get back to you
The clear symbolic Lions would be the Lannisters so trying to think as to how this might fit the pattern as well
@@eldric.stoneskin that makes me think that this is an instance of one of George's ideas that came to him after writing majority of asoiaf world.
He often likes to reimagine and reuse his fantasy elements and maybe elden ring was the first time he used lion and maiden archetypes in a big way. This has to be an important and powerful idea in his head if he used it as a different depiction of the long night. Otherwise, I have no idea how Godfrey or Radahn would be connected to the others in a symbolical way.
@@eldric.stoneskin I also thought about the lannisters at first, but it gave me an even bigger headache. The only counterpart in lannisters to this archetype are Cersei and Jaime, but to me they are to similar to each other. Lion and Maiden are meant to be complete opposites and while Jaime does go through a lot of changes and by the end I believe he will completely reject all that Cersei is, I just have hard time believing they belong in the same space in George's head.
Also what would even the symbolical meaning be?
With compering asoiaf and elden ring to each other there is a lot of freedom, because they aren't connected storywise and we are just looking at similarities.
When looking at symbolism in a single series we need more.
Great video
Thanks!
Considering that Williams and Martin both live at the top of the Mesoamerican world and have for decades, I can't see why Martin wouldn't draw from Aztec mythology. The grave goods up here have included Macaws and there's a ball court over towards Arizona. I mean if Martin wasn't into this bag, why would he buy and restore something like the Kiva theater?
As a side note, when Art Deco met the general Pueblo style, something really cool and really brief appeard.
10:37 that worm always reminds me of the little worm from corpse bride lolol
20:29 - I say the first faceless man was a CotF / hybrid.
Yeah it’s definitely possible
@@eldric.stoneskin I think it’s thematic. The valyrians mining and blood magic were crimes against nature. They were repaid with a natural disaster. CotF super weapons of choice are ‘natural’ disaster. They represent the spirit of nature itself, being victimized and punishing humanity.
Great insight! 👍😀
Thanks!
Can't believe I wasn't subbed already
Shouldn’t haven’t labeled this as a theory because it’s 100% accurate- as confirmed in Elden Ring
You’ll see a lot of commonality between these conclusions and what I will be presenting in my next Elden Ring video
Nox = Faceless Men
Shaman = Children of the Forest
Loved this video, I would love to see if the Bolton connections are more than *skin deep* 😂
Thanks mate! Yeah the Shaman/COTF comparison makes a lot of sense, hopefully we don’t find the children shoved into great jars in the Winds of Winter 🤣
This is a theory I've heard before, but now I get a more in depth video on it. Fantastic. It's one I've considered (after being made aware of it)
Edit: On FB, I saw this Game of Thrones short video. I forget what. But I had mentioned The Night's King/Lord Bolton theory (the Night's King being every Lord Bolton through the centuries) but I didn't remember the full theory. Now it makes more sense.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Search for "Bolt-On" if you want to find out more.
@eldric.stoneskin i was 1 min into this video, and i was convinced and in agreement with this theory!! Youve done it again 🍻
In your upcoming stream with David Lightbringer, please PLEEASE bring this theory, along with the Stone Stark Kings & the King under the Mountain theories to him. As far as im aware he hasnt yet picked up on these trends and you have a good chance of blowing his brains, just like youve done to us here.😅
Im pretty sure he'll also appreciate your technique of tracking the symbolism behind these theories and will probably add to your theories in the process.
Well done man!! This video made my day ❤
Thanks mate! Yeah well be going into all this on the livestream, should be a pretty good stream I reckon, really appreciate the support! 💀🍻
I’d argue the difference is that the first (weirwood trees) is about seeing and the second (the faceless men) is about being seen.
The black part of the door is probably made from the tree which the Shade of the Evening made of.
Yes!
that was sick how the different gods formed the skull that faded into the weirwood tree. subbed at 4.2k
Cheers!
Something jumped out at me a while ago when I was I contemplating sigils and house words. The Stark sigil is a dire wolf on an "ice" white field. Not just white, but ice white. We tend to consider ice as blue, and there are references in the books to support that, but we also have the ice white field.
What's interesting is if you consider ice as white then look at their leaves the combo stands out. The red is blood/fire, and the white is ice. Which brought to mind a question, do weirwoods sing? It weirwoods combine ice and fire symbols, and they sing, what would you call their song?
In the real world we have the Yin Yang, which is both black and white, and ice and fire. Casting this contrast in a similar light. If one is ice white (wight) then can we flip the opposite and say fire black? Shade trees would then combine a black fire with the more common blue ice, making them ice and fire as well. If the ebony of the doors is meant as a reference to Shade trees then the doors are doors of ice and fire. If we recast black in light of the contrast and association with Targs, then the NW in black is fire that burns against the cold.
There are several more aspects of the Bran, Arya, and even Theon contrast I look forward to you exploring. But, I thought it might be interesting to consider the weirwoods, shadewoods, and HoBW in the context of their symbolism suggested in the story. And ask the question, do these trees sing? What would we title their song? If the dead live on within them, do the dead keep singing? More relevant to this theory as far as you've gone, why is the Last Hero nameless? Arya lost her friends, her horse, her dog, and finally her sword. Very, very interesting.
They’re definitely singing adjacent at the least, they are tended by those who sing the song of earth and even have singers inside the weirwoods, we even see horns being a musical instrument associated with them as well
And the Red/White colouring and the Blue/Black colouring are examples of balance just as Black/White and Red/Blue are for sure, and I think is why we see the house of black and white having these colours as well, so they can bring normality back to the life and death cycle, just as the song of ice and fire Jon Snow will
We even find this black and white association with Jon who is not only Ice and fire but also a Black brother with a white wolf, just as Bloodraven is a black brother with white albino skin, and another hero character Dany even having a black dragon and a white dragon, all of these Black and white associated characters including Arya and Bran are black and white associated because they’ll bring balance back to the life and death cycle and the cycle of the seasons
This is straight up an order of the green hand video
I’ve seen their stuff, they think Jaquen Hghar is the many faced god, and the old gods and the many faced god are completely different with one being faceless and one having many faces, which is not at all what I’m suggesting
If you want to really tie this together, I think the past arya is drinking is shade of the evening. The tree is black with blue leaves. A reversal. Black and white. And one thing I've seen is when the children of the forest broke the arm of dorne. It's severed the trees so they could have all been won and now they're different but they're similar. I don't know. I always thought it ties into what you're saying and strengthens it
Yeah you could be right
Cool video🧐
No, they worship the Great Other. Same as the Faith of the Seven, the other six are a relatable smokescreen to lure peasants into The Stranger's arms and the main thing about the Faith is that they HATE magic, the Weirwoods, the Children, the Giants, the Red God, and the First Men, even Aegon the Conqueror had to "convert" to the Faith and forsake the 14 deities of his ancestors (y'know, the fire gods that granted magic and dragons so Valyria could grow to rule most of the world, trying to set up armies of dragons and fire wielding sorcerors to counter the inevitable 2nd Long Night) just to rule; all of whom either are or were enemies of the White Walkers. Without Valyria, mankind lost any hope of victory so now the best they can hope for is a stalemate or truce by the end similar to the Children and the First Men; "One side knew they could not win and the other side didn't want to pay the cost to do so".
When Valyria fell, only the Faith of the Seven and the Faceless Men were happy and untouched by the chaos that followed for practically everyone else. Even in 300A.C. they still mock the Doomed Dragonlords, claiming the Seven struck them down and these people would deny facts to pretend they're right all the way up until wights choke them to death without ever lifting a finger to help "lying tree worshipping heathens", ignoring the fact that three seperate races of extremely practical peoples that were litterally starved of resources all gathered to build a wall 700 ft high from one ocean to the next and never once complained or thought this was a bad idea.
Also, they love to gloss over how the Empire of the Dawn, predecessors to Yi-Ti whom keep meticulous records of history (yet no Maester ever admitted to learning the language or reading said histories, even though that would be a very scholarly thing to do) like the Ancient Chinese they are based off of had apparantly thought it was also a good idea to construct a similar project to the Wall in the Five Forts to guard against "demons and corpses from the Gray Waste" and unlike Westeros these forts are still fully manned. It must be coincendence that they built hude defenses specifically designed to protect them from either titanic foes, enemies with numbers in the millions, or both around the same time as the First Men/Children/Giants decided to build the Wall. "There's no practical use for such resource intensive, time consuming edifices or any reason behind why so many were willing to kill/die to protect said defenses. Had to be a vanity project. Magic is gone from the world, we made it disappear so no one else could possibly use it. Ignore the cries of "HELP US" from the Night's Watch, ignore the warnings of "dead things in the water", ignore the rumors of dragons being hatched from petrified eggs, and most of all...acolye, I told you before to put out those burning glass candles! Their light is too bright for these old eyes to even see my own writing!"
I love this theory!
AAAND, as Starks, they are able to warg into their Direwolves.
Ye gods. Staring us all in the 'face' all these years tet only Edric sees it!
🤣
Amazing 😍🤩
Cheers!💀🍻
Wow!
CotF believe weirwoods are the old gods and when they die they become part of that godhood and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods. That means each weirwood is Many Goded Face
Exactly!
❤❤❤
You make a few crucial jumps in logic here. I think there is some clear parallels being made and you provide some great examples of them but for example i dont think we see any evidence of the boltons worshipping weirwoods like you said and iirc they are described as warring with the kings of winter in the age of heroes but never once mentioned as having been there since the long night like you said. Also you entirely ignore that all the faceless man iconography is half ebony, maybe like the shade of the evening trees. Clearly hints at something other than just weirwood magic at play.
I think the more likely explanation for the similarity is that there is only 1 or 2 types of magic in asoiaf and both groups are interpretting the same magics or same ancient prophecy or dream in a lovecraftian kind of way similar to how all the targaryens dreamt of dany hatching dragons and thought it was them.
The Boltons existed during the long night - “The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed.” - The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter
The Boltons worship weirwoods as they’re a first man northern culture, with Ramsey even being married in front of a heart tree in a tradition northern wedding
The weirwood magic is very much tied to the shade of the evening trees and use this same magic as you’ve said and ill be covering this aspect of the symbolism in an upcoming video
@eldric.stoneskin fair enough on the long night point I stand corrected, I haven't read the world of ice and fire.
However I don't think the married in front of the tree is strong evidence since the whole point there is they are following stark customs and Northern customs in winterfell as part of the whole mummers farce.
I don't even recall a mention of a heart tree at the dreadfort but then I was wrong on the other point.
Please tell me WHAT Howland Reed was doing all that time at the Isle of Faces? Training like Arya? Honing his magics like Arya,being a crannogman that's part COTF?
Whatever it was I think it has something to do with the fact that Howlands son Jojen Reed, was the key player in getting Bran to Bloodraven and the Old Gods
@eldric.stoneskin basically Howland sent his children as a sacrifice ( Meera to protect Jojen,and Jojen as weirwood snack) but I feel Howland had to have more to do,like h😮e's in plain sight more than we know. In lore,didn't the COTF sacrifice their children for magical results?
Awesome.
Shoggoth/The Thing. The black blood.
It's all nanomachines, baby.
I don't jest. If not the exact use of the word nanomachines that's what it can all be attributed to.
An extra terrestrial black goop that learns grows and assimilates that was reactivated by a signal from the passing comet.
Probably happens every few thousand years.
A forgotten terraforming experiment?
A weapon test?
Who knows. It doesn't matter.
The lives of humans are fleeting compared to the gods and their games.
I like the videos but I'm at a point where I believe neither of the final two books will ever come out.
So these videos just depress me cause they're interesting theories for questions which will never be answered.
I’ve still got hope
@eldric.stoneskin so many great theories and videos have been so much more compelling and entertaining than the last seasons of GoT. Lots of great talent! Thanks for your hard work and insights!!❤❤❤❤
Waiting for the live.
So. How does Varys being a merman figure into this
Its the missing piece of the puzzle 🤣
Wow, another blinder.
I'm a little disappointed tho, if Bran and Arya are paralleling each other's story then that's actually one less storyline George is giving us.
Their stories are very different, they’re just intentional parables left by George to suggest these connections is all
Cool.
What a reach 😂😂😂....
.
Here after watching your stream with David Lightbringer 🫶 brilliant work
Thanks!