I’m so glad that you keep flying the flag for the masterpiece that is Magnard’s 4th. That coda, with its transcendental chorale followed by a peaceful “sunset” ending, never fails to move me to tears. While I do regret that Magnard didn’t live longer to write more symphonies, the ending of the 4th is the perfect summation of his compositional career.
Suk’s Asrael would also qualify as a work that absolutely needs to end in quietly hushed tones. After what has preceded it, it cannot be any other way. In general, I think quiet endings come over more effectively where the emotional journey of the piece is easier to grasp. Ambiguous quiet endings are much harder to place because they leave you too busy thinking rather than able to feel the ending’s rightness.
Quite an interesting discussion. Thanks for your insights. As you noted at the top, Mahler was very adroit in his concert choices and order. For those who might be interested, the NYPO website archive lists all 70-odd performances he conducted. Most have the actual concert programs, which illustrate the wide variety of music he selected, as well as being fascinating historical documents of the time. A complete listing of all his orchestral concerts and pieces conducted can be found at the International Gustav Mahler Society website. Off topic, I know, but as a Mahler devotee, I thought it worthy of mention.
Long-time listener, first-time commenter. I love this topic and want to add David Diamond's under-heard third symphony and it's beautiful, quiet ending (with it's lovely plaintive clarinet solo) to this list. Fortunately, Schwarz and Seattle made a fine recording of it.
Totally agree - that last movement is so nostalgically beautiful. His String Quartet no. 3 and incidental music to “Romeo and Juliet” have rather similar final movements.
For me, one of the most harrowing quiet endings is the closing of Malcolm Arnold's 5th Symphony. The sudden turn from a typical triumphant ending to a crash landing, followed by a few bell strokes and a final bass groan, is so unexpected, like the hero, having vanquished all of his foes, suddenly being stabbed from behind in the final scene of the movie. It's shattering!
I could not agree more! That ending emotionally shattered me the first time I heard it, and still does to this day. In fact, I get chills just thinking about it!
Three items of interest: 1.) I've done the Sibelius 6th twice, both times as the final work on the program. I think my introductory comments helped the audience's appreciation, since it was well received. 2.) When I did the Prokofiev 7th, we ended quietly. I stopped the applause and told them that Prokofiev was advised that a loud ending might indeed help him win another much-needed Stalin Prize, so we backed up and played the final 2 minutes, with the "happy" ending. The audience howled with delight. 3.) When I first showed a score of one of my own works to Neeme Jarvi, the first thing he did was turn to the last page. He rather humorously admonished me, saying "Ohhh......conductors like BIG endings" (the work ended quietly). Nevertheless, he took the score, and a week later his Detroit Symphony office called to say that he had programmed the work for his first season with the orchestra. So I dodged a bullet. LR
Hi Dave, this is an interesting topic. I was extremely lucky to see Bax's 2nd Symphony live at the Proms, maybe 10 years ago, Andrew Litton conducting the RPO in a three thirds concert inspired by commissions from Koussevitsky and the Boston SO. So it opened with Fanfare to the Common Man, then came Bax 2. Interval! Followed by Barber's Adagio, then Yuja Wang playing Bartok 2nd Concerto. Interval! Then Prokofiev 3rd Symphony, which I missed, as the last train out of London to York was pretty early. I went for the Bax in particular, last known sighting of a Bax symphony in concert to my knowledge. It was greeted with a polite, but less than whole-hearted round of applause, which really pissed me off, especially as Yuja Wang was then given rapturous applause, whoops, screams etc, rather than the 'stuffed pigs' routine. She was superb, but that wasn't the point. The quiet, unknown Bax got a brief acknowledgment, then the famous soloist brought the house down. Bax's 2nd is a fabulous piece though. As for the 4th, that does have a loud, triumphant ending. Interesting that Bryden Thomson and the Ulster Orchestra began the Bax cycle with 4, which I like, but doesn't really appear to be anyone's favourite. It has Tintagel too. Maybe the 2nd,3rd or 6th would have been deemed too risky for a first installment. 5 is my own favourite, then the 2nd. Could be waiting years to hear the 5th!
Very interesting series. Thanks for your inciteful choices & comments. I totally concur with your views on the marvellous, unique Magnard symphonies. It would be great to hear what you think are the most rousing, life-affirming & exciting endings to a symphony, concerto or symphonic work.
Thank you very much for the video. I have accualy seen the Honegger "Liturgique" played in the second half of a concert. Right at the ending of the symphony with no pause the orchestra started playing an orchestration of the lutherin choral "Gott ist eine feste Burg". It was quite suprising, but I think that is was appropriate to the message of the "Liturgique". And after my mind wandert for a bit for why the conductor decided to do that, I came up with the Idea that he didn't want the crowd to applaude after the literaly liturgic and solitude ending that ought to conglamourate the deths in the secind world war. And that theory makes to me even more sence, because they played that lutherin choral instead of some balltett suite or something else. Of course considering the meassage of "Gott ist eine feste Burg", it is loud and festive and after it ended there was a giant applause and everybody was satisfied. So in my view it was quite an effective "encore".
Dutilleux Symphony #2. Extraordinary mysterious chord in diminuendo. PS-there’s a recording elsewhere on RUclips of the premiere of this work, with the original ending-(a different, simpler chord) as well as other sections in the 3rd Movement that were later cut).
I played the Sibelius 6th almost 40 years ago, and it was good to hear it being listed. I have long been puzzled by the slow ending of the first movement, since it sounds almost inconclusive enough to pass for a slow introduction to the not-so-fast 2nd movement (which uses some of the same material).. This makes me think of the unconventional transitions in the 3rd Symphony, but also the coalescing of movements in the 7th. In more recent years, I've worried less about the "real" number of movements in the 6th or where they begin and end. The symphony seems more held together by a consistency of material, with even the trio of the third movement turning the flowing polyphony of the symphony's opening into a more menacing staccato. Then you have the fourth movement, after rising to a frenzy, slowing down and evoking the beginning of the first movement in a way that's even more subdued and fragmented, and seemingly open-ended. But there's a symmetry in this that's very satisfying--though maybe more to a player than someone programming a concert. The original ending of the Prokofiev 7th reminds me of two symphonies by Shostakovich with quiet endings and bell-like sounds that are even more spooky--the 4th (composed about 18 years before the Prokofiev) and the 15th. There's something exquisitely demoralising about the original ending of the Prokofiev 7th: the collapse of a cheerful facade, like the clown who cheers up the kids one last time before being sent to the GULAG.
I don’t want to add to ‘The Twelve Cursed’, but to ‘The Two Uncursed’ - the symphonies that DESPITE their quiet endings are still widely recognised and appreciated. My addition is the original symphonic quiet ending, an idea of such great novelty that no-one has repeated it in 250 years, and the story of which is so charming that it is invariably taught to children studying musical history - Haydn’s Farewell Symphony.
Two pieces that are wildly popular with quiet endings are The Fountains of Rome (Respighi) and The Planets (Holst) with its fade to nothingness. Admittedly not symphonies, perse, but they are both multi-part pieces. Fountains is usually programmed before last in a concert, but The Planets is always performed as the second half of a concert and (usually) receives ecstatic applause.
Hi Dave. Another possible topic for unusual endings could be music that starts in major and ends in minor. The are not so many pieces tough. At least, that I know.
There's a symphony whose quiet ending is also perfect in my view: Bloch's Symphony in C-sharp minor. The piece is incredibly tumultuous, sensuous, ambitious, with some shattering climaxes, but the ending... after the last stirring moment of absolute ecstasy (almost orgasmic), the symphony concludes in the most magical and ethereal possible way. It never fails to move me. Btw, yet another insightful talk. Thank you!
Though greatly predating and written for smaller orchestral forces than all the symphonies on your list, here are four Haydn symphonies (in numerical order) that also end quietly. First, No. 23 finishes with a single pianissimo pizzicato tonic chord in the strings alone after nearly two measures of silence. Second, the Menuet finale of No. 26 concludes with the strings marked piano and the oboes and horns pianissimo. Third, No. 45 (of course) has its closing adagio written essentially as a very long decrescendo, and its last measures are played pianissimo by only two muted solo violins. Lastly, No. 73's final movement begins with an exuberant, forte evocation of the hunt by the full orchestra including trumpets and timpani, but ends with a dying away ("perdendosi"), halting, pianissimo passage for flute, oboes, and strings alone. Those four works also illustrate the rarity of quiet endings to symphonies in that, of Haydn's 107 works in the genre (if one includes the partially lost Hob. I:106 and excludes the Sinfonia Concertante Hob. I:105), only they finish in a hush rather than with a bang.
I wasn't aware that Tippett was in any way disappointed with his first symphony. Did he convey that in conversations? I think the First Symphony is a beautiful piece, outclassed only by the second, and I find the quiet end of the fugue striking. Tippett had a greater aversion to grand, emphatic endings than any other composer I can think of. A significant number of his movements and compositions end quietly. Even the loud endings are usually matter-of-fact----a few strikes of percussion or the coalescing of the counterpoint in a single chord. The main exception is the end of the first movement of the second symphony, which makes it all the more thrilling. Brahms, the third symphony notwithstanding, seems the clearest opposite to Tippett. He was the master of the extended ending. The Handel Variations and the First Symphony are prominent examples.
Great talk! I'd make a case for Rautavaara's 5th. His best symphony in my estimation, in no small part due to the remarkable ending, strange and dreamlike in a way I've never heard in another piece.
In addition to some of those on the list, when I want to listen to a purely instrumental symphony with a quiet ending, I often go the Victor Bendix Symphony No. 3 and Howard Hanson's Symphony No. 4 "Requiem". I also find the quiet ending to Hans Rott's Symphony to be quite effective.
I couldn't agree more about Magnard 4th Symphony. I have to admit that I listened to it for the first time after you recommended it in your great symphonies 4s video a couple of weeks ago and really blow me away. Unfortunately there are very few recordings based on my research on internet, I listened to Thomas Sanderling and Malmo Symphony orchestra on BIS, seemed like a good recording to me but I am interested if you have any other suggestions?
In reference to 13:41, that is a tricky question. On one hand the finale of Sibelius's 6th has this feeling of final farewell that makes it feel somehow displaced in the first half of a concert. But on the other hand, the 6th could hardly constitute an entire second half since it's a relatively short work. I've seen some conductors performing Sibelius's 6th and 7th in the second half. I once saw Paavo Berglund performing both of the symphonies in the second half of his concert with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Once the final D6-note in the 6th had faded away Berglund just continued straight to the 7th without any applause after the 6th. In a way he tied the two symphonies together and it actually worked rather well.
Apropos of Vaughan Williams...I remember a conversation over coffee with Robert Marcellus, the other worldly clarinetist of the Cleveland Orchestra back in the day (and a conductor at the Cleveland Institute where I matriculated) re: the 5th Symphony...I suggested he do a VW symphony and he suggested the 5th (which I had already fallen in love with) and he waxed poetic over the final coda describing it as these beautiful Alleluias wafting up to Heaven......wonderful ending to perhaps the most beautiful symphony of the 20th C.
Speaking of heavenly music, I believe that YOU introduced me to the exquisite "Adagio and Variations" for cello by Respighi, back at CIM in the spring of '73. I've programmed it twice, and audience and orchestra alike were stunned by its beauty.
Fascinating and enjoyable as always, for which many thanks. I am sorry, but you really are continuing to set yourself up for a fulsome focus on Bax edition ! Best regards !
I always consider the bait and switch ending of Dvorak's 9th as a quiet ending. Also, after the bombastic passages in the Brian Gothic, a quiet ending is just cruel.
As soon as I saw the quietly ended concerto video, I hoped a similar symphony video would follow soon thereafter, and I want disappointed. I think there’s a very practical reason why orchestral works which end quietly aren’t so popular in the concert hall: it is difficult for the audience to know when the piece is over unless they already know the piece coming in. My Midwestern regional symphony did a cello concerto (I plead guilty to not remembering which one) that ended quietly, and after the final bar, the audience was mute for several seconds until the maestro rotated his head like an owl or The Exorcist to let us all know things were blessedly over. The original Prokofiev 7 ending is better, but I do enjoy the “Stalin Prize” ending, which Prokofiev didn’t end up getting anyway, then promptly died after publication.
Felix Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony breaks with precedence on two counts. Not only does it have a quiet ending, but it may well be the first major-key symphony with a minor-key finale.
Less common even than the quiet endings are the goofy or bubbly ones. The best example I can think of is Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony. It's last movement is marked "Final, Modéré, presque vif, avec une grande joie".
About quiet endings in a concert: for some pieces, it wouldn't feel weird to just get up and leave at the end. The first work for which this approach would seem fitting that popped up in my mind is the Shostakovich 13. To me personally that work is so monumental, so impressive and demanding of respect that I the only appropriate reaction in my mind is to let out a sigh, walk to my car, stare ahead for a few seconds, and drive home without the radio on with only the echo of that final bell toll to accompany me. It would be unfortunate to not applaud the orchestra and all others who were involved, especially at a great performance, so I wouldn't suggest any audience actually do this, but to me it wouldn't be that weird either.
I wonder. When Norrington gave a concert, did he structure them like they would have back then, or would the fact it was an actual practice scare him away?
Great video! Might recommend Sibelius 4, I don't think anything else would make sense in the context of the piece, especially after that ambiguous 1st movement ending on the floaty unison A, Get a strong reminder of Tchaik 6
Wasn't there a performance tradition of playing the Tchaikovsky Pathetique with the order of the 3rd and 4th movements reversed? I don't know if audiences disliked the quiet ending, but supposedly a lot of conductors did.
That's in a different category, I think, but the presence of a sung text creates its own natural climax, and the challenge there is to create the most appropriate setting for the words. Same with Mahler's 4th.
I think Vaughan Williams 6th is a quiet ending symphony that has to end a concert. Nothing can follow that ending. His 5th can be a great first half work. But not 6. Now. My problem with Elgar's 2nd is that, though the first three movements show an advance over the 1st and are wonderful--for me what he came up with for the principal theme of the last movement is such a letdown, dismayingly banal and trite, almost childish. I'll grant that he recovers lost ground later in the movement but still...sorry. (Ducking for cover.)
One of my favorites that ends quietly and, I feel, profoundly is the Chausson Symphony.
I love the ending of the Bax 6th Symphony, so beautiful with its quiet ending.
I’m so glad that you keep flying the flag for the masterpiece that is Magnard’s 4th. That coda, with its transcendental chorale followed by a peaceful “sunset” ending, never fails to move me to tears. While I do regret that Magnard didn’t live longer to write more symphonies, the ending of the 4th is the perfect summation of his compositional career.
Suk’s Asrael would also qualify as a work that absolutely needs to end in quietly hushed tones. After what has preceded it, it cannot be any other way. In general, I think quiet endings come over more effectively where the emotional journey of the piece is easier to grasp. Ambiguous quiet endings are much harder to place because they leave you too busy thinking rather than able to feel the ending’s rightness.
Quite an interesting discussion. Thanks for your insights. As you noted at the top, Mahler was very adroit in his concert choices and order. For those who might be interested, the NYPO website archive lists all 70-odd performances he conducted. Most have the actual concert programs, which illustrate the wide variety of music he selected, as well as being fascinating historical documents of the time. A complete listing of all his orchestral concerts and pieces conducted can be found at the International Gustav Mahler Society website. Off topic, I know, but as a Mahler devotee, I thought it worthy of mention.
Long-time listener, first-time commenter. I love this topic and want to add David Diamond's under-heard third symphony and it's beautiful, quiet ending (with it's lovely plaintive clarinet solo) to this list. Fortunately, Schwarz and Seattle made a fine recording of it.
Totally agree - that last movement is so nostalgically beautiful. His String Quartet no. 3 and incidental music to “Romeo and Juliet” have rather similar final movements.
For me, one of the most harrowing quiet endings is the closing of Malcolm Arnold's 5th Symphony. The sudden turn from a typical triumphant ending to a crash landing, followed by a few bell strokes and a final bass groan, is so unexpected, like the hero, having vanquished all of his foes, suddenly being stabbed from behind in the final scene of the movie. It's shattering!
I could not agree more! That ending emotionally shattered me the first time I heard it, and still does to this day. In fact, I get chills just thinking about it!
Three items of interest: 1.) I've done the Sibelius 6th twice, both times as the final work on the program. I think my introductory comments helped the audience's appreciation, since it was well received. 2.) When I did the Prokofiev 7th, we ended quietly. I stopped the applause and told them that Prokofiev was advised that a loud ending might indeed help him win another much-needed Stalin Prize, so we backed up and played the final 2 minutes, with the "happy" ending. The audience howled with delight. 3.) When I first showed a score of one of my own works to Neeme Jarvi, the first thing he did was turn to the last page. He rather humorously admonished me, saying "Ohhh......conductors like BIG endings" (the work ended quietly). Nevertheless, he took the score, and a week later his Detroit Symphony office called to say that he had programmed the work for his first season with the orchestra. So I dodged a bullet. LR
Hi Dave, this is an interesting topic. I was extremely lucky to see Bax's 2nd Symphony live at the Proms, maybe 10 years ago, Andrew Litton conducting the RPO in a three thirds concert inspired by commissions from Koussevitsky and the Boston SO. So it opened with Fanfare to the Common Man, then came Bax 2. Interval! Followed by Barber's Adagio, then Yuja Wang playing Bartok 2nd Concerto. Interval! Then Prokofiev 3rd Symphony, which I missed, as the last train out of London to York was pretty early. I went for the Bax in particular, last known sighting of a Bax symphony in concert to my knowledge. It was greeted with a polite, but less than whole-hearted round of applause, which really pissed me off, especially as Yuja Wang was then given rapturous applause, whoops, screams etc, rather than the 'stuffed pigs' routine. She was superb, but that wasn't the point. The quiet, unknown Bax got a brief acknowledgment, then the famous soloist brought the house down.
Bax's 2nd is a fabulous piece though. As for the 4th, that does have a loud, triumphant ending. Interesting that Bryden Thomson and the Ulster Orchestra began the Bax cycle with 4, which I like, but doesn't really appear to be anyone's favourite. It has Tintagel too. Maybe the 2nd,3rd or 6th would have been deemed too risky for a first installment. 5 is my own favourite, then the 2nd. Could be waiting years to hear the 5th!
Very interesting series. Thanks for your inciteful choices & comments. I totally concur with your views on the marvellous, unique Magnard symphonies. It would be great to hear what you think are the most rousing, life-affirming & exciting endings to a symphony, concerto or symphonic work.
Thank you very much for the video. I have accualy seen the Honegger "Liturgique" played in the second half of a concert. Right at the ending of the symphony with no pause the orchestra started playing an orchestration of the lutherin choral "Gott ist eine feste Burg". It was quite suprising, but I think that is was appropriate to the message of the "Liturgique". And after my mind wandert for a bit for why the conductor decided to do that, I came up with the Idea that he didn't want the crowd to applaude after the literaly liturgic and solitude ending that ought to conglamourate the deths in the secind world war. And that theory makes to me even more sence, because they played that lutherin choral instead of some balltett suite or something else. Of course considering the meassage of "Gott ist eine feste Burg", it is loud and festive and after it ended there was a giant applause and everybody was satisfied. So in my view it was quite an effective "encore".
Dutilleux Symphony #2. Extraordinary mysterious chord in diminuendo.
PS-there’s a recording elsewhere on RUclips of the premiere of this work, with the original ending-(a different, simpler chord) as well as other sections in the 3rd Movement that were later cut).
I played the Sibelius 6th almost 40 years ago, and it was good to hear it being listed. I have long been puzzled by the slow ending of the first movement, since it sounds almost inconclusive enough to pass for a slow introduction to the not-so-fast 2nd movement (which uses some of the same material).. This makes me think of the unconventional transitions in the 3rd Symphony, but also the coalescing of movements in the 7th. In more recent years, I've worried less about the "real" number of movements in the 6th or where they begin and end. The symphony seems more held together by a consistency of material, with even the trio of the third movement turning the flowing polyphony of the symphony's opening into a more menacing staccato. Then you have the fourth movement, after rising to a frenzy, slowing down and evoking the beginning of the first movement in a way that's even more subdued and fragmented, and seemingly open-ended. But there's a symmetry in this that's very satisfying--though maybe more to a player than someone programming a concert.
The original ending of the Prokofiev 7th reminds me of two symphonies by Shostakovich with quiet endings and bell-like sounds that are even more spooky--the 4th (composed about 18 years before the Prokofiev) and the 15th. There's something exquisitely demoralising about the original ending of the Prokofiev 7th: the collapse of a cheerful facade, like the clown who cheers up the kids one last time before being sent to the GULAG.
I don’t want to add to ‘The Twelve Cursed’, but to ‘The Two Uncursed’ - the symphonies that DESPITE their quiet endings are still widely recognised and appreciated. My addition is the original symphonic quiet ending, an idea of such great novelty that no-one has repeated it in 250 years, and the story of which is so charming that it is invariably taught to children studying musical history - Haydn’s Farewell Symphony.
Absolutely. But it was so unusual the work had to have a story behind it.
Allan Pettersson symphony 7. A battle between anxiety and calmness. It ends thankfully with calmness.
Two pieces that are wildly popular with quiet endings are The Fountains of Rome (Respighi) and The Planets (Holst) with its fade to nothingness. Admittedly not symphonies, perse, but they are both multi-part pieces. Fountains is usually programmed before last in a concert, but The Planets is always performed as the second half of a concert and (usually) receives ecstatic applause.
That's really beside the point. Neither work has the expectations that come with "the symphony." Most Richard Strauss tone poems also end quietly.
Hi Dave. Another possible topic for unusual endings could be music that starts in major and ends in minor. The are not so many pieces tough. At least, that I know.
There's a symphony whose quiet ending is also perfect in my view: Bloch's Symphony in C-sharp minor. The piece is incredibly tumultuous, sensuous, ambitious, with some shattering climaxes, but the ending... after the last stirring moment of absolute ecstasy (almost orgasmic), the symphony concludes in the most magical and ethereal possible way. It never fails to move me.
Btw, yet another insightful talk. Thank you!
Though greatly predating and written for smaller orchestral forces than all the symphonies on your list, here are four Haydn symphonies (in numerical order) that also end quietly.
First, No. 23 finishes with a single pianissimo pizzicato tonic chord in the strings alone after nearly two measures of silence. Second, the Menuet finale of No. 26 concludes with the strings marked piano and the oboes and horns pianissimo. Third, No. 45 (of course) has its closing adagio written essentially as a very long decrescendo, and its last measures are played pianissimo by only two muted solo violins. Lastly, No. 73's final movement begins with an exuberant, forte evocation of the hunt by the full orchestra including trumpets and timpani, but ends with a dying away ("perdendosi"), halting, pianissimo passage for flute, oboes, and strings alone.
Those four works also illustrate the rarity of quiet endings to symphonies in that, of Haydn's 107 works in the genre (if one includes the partially lost Hob. I:106 and excludes the Sinfonia Concertante Hob. I:105), only they finish in a hush rather than with a bang.
I wasn't aware that Tippett was in any way disappointed with his first symphony. Did he convey that in conversations? I think the First Symphony is a beautiful piece, outclassed only by the second, and I find the quiet end of the fugue striking.
Tippett had a greater aversion to grand, emphatic endings than any other composer I can think of. A significant number of his movements and compositions end quietly. Even the loud endings are usually matter-of-fact----a few strikes of percussion or the coalescing of the counterpoint in a single chord. The main exception is the end of the first movement of the second symphony, which makes it all the more thrilling.
Brahms, the third symphony notwithstanding, seems the clearest opposite to Tippett. He was the master of the extended ending. The Handel Variations and the First Symphony are prominent examples.
Actually, he wrote about it somewhere.
Great talk! I'd make a case for Rautavaara's 5th. His best symphony in my estimation, in no small part due to the remarkable ending, strange and dreamlike in a way I've never heard in another piece.
Franz Schmidt #4!! Not only a quiet ending, but only a SINGLE TRUMPET NOTE, that fades into nothingness. The perfect "circular" work. LR
In addition to some of those on the list, when I want to listen to a purely instrumental symphony with a quiet ending, I often go the Victor Bendix Symphony No. 3 and Howard Hanson's Symphony No. 4 "Requiem". I also find the quiet ending to Hans Rott's Symphony to be quite effective.
This is in line with his two overtures of towering genius: A Midsummer Night's Dream and The Hebrides.
I couldn't agree more about Magnard 4th Symphony. I have to admit that I listened to it for the first time after you recommended it in your great symphonies 4s video a couple of weeks ago and really blow me away. Unfortunately there are very few recordings based on my research on internet, I listened to Thomas Sanderling and Malmo Symphony orchestra on BIS, seemed like a good recording to me but I am interested if you have any other suggestions?
Sanderling is the best, but the Naxos series is pretty good too--swifter and lighter.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks David, I'll give it a go.
In reference to 13:41, that is a tricky question. On one hand the finale of Sibelius's 6th has this feeling of final farewell that makes it feel somehow displaced in the first half of a concert. But on the other hand, the 6th could hardly constitute an entire second half since it's a relatively short work.
I've seen some conductors performing Sibelius's 6th and 7th in the second half. I once saw Paavo Berglund performing both of the symphonies in the second half of his concert with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. Once the final D6-note in the 6th had faded away Berglund just continued straight to the 7th without any applause after the 6th. In a way he tied the two symphonies together and it actually worked rather well.
Apropos of Vaughan Williams...I remember a conversation over coffee with Robert Marcellus, the other worldly clarinetist of the Cleveland Orchestra back in the day (and a conductor at the Cleveland Institute where I matriculated) re: the 5th Symphony...I suggested he do a VW symphony and he suggested the 5th (which I had already fallen in love with) and he waxed poetic over the final coda describing it as these beautiful Alleluias wafting up to Heaven......wonderful ending to perhaps the most beautiful symphony of the 20th C.
Speaking of heavenly music, I believe that YOU introduced me to the exquisite "Adagio and Variations" for cello by Respighi, back at CIM in the spring of '73. I've programmed it twice, and audience and orchestra alike were stunned by its beauty.
Fascinating and enjoyable as always, for which many thanks. I am sorry, but you really are continuing to set yourself up for a fulsome focus on Bax edition ! Best regards !
I always consider the bait and switch ending of Dvorak's 9th as a quiet ending. Also, after the bombastic passages in the Brian Gothic, a quiet ending is just cruel.
As soon as I saw the quietly ended concerto video, I hoped a similar symphony video would follow soon thereafter, and I want disappointed. I think there’s a very practical reason why orchestral works which end quietly aren’t so popular in the concert hall: it is difficult for the audience to know when the piece is over unless they already know the piece coming in. My Midwestern regional symphony did a cello concerto (I plead guilty to not remembering which one) that ended quietly, and after the final bar, the audience was mute for several seconds until the maestro rotated his head like an owl or The Exorcist to let us all know things were blessedly over.
The original Prokofiev 7 ending is better, but I do enjoy the “Stalin Prize” ending, which Prokofiev didn’t end up getting anyway, then promptly died after publication.
Roussel 2 has been one of my closest friends for 25 years
Felix Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony breaks with precedence on two counts. Not only does it have a quiet ending, but it may well be the first major-key symphony with a minor-key finale.
It isn't a quiet ending at all. Where did that come from?
Yes. Sibelius 1st Symphony ends with a big solo timpani roll that starts out loud and then fades away as if to say : " I'm finished now "
I had heard of a conductor long ago that reversed the last two movements of the Tchaikovsky Pathetique for the loudness effect!
I applaud to Shostakovich 15's brilliant quiet ending.
Please watch the video before commenting.
@@DavesClassicalGuide That was a response to your comment around the 30th to the 40th seconds. I did finish the video later. Great one!
Less common even than the quiet endings are the goofy or bubbly ones. The best example I can think of is Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony. It's last movement is marked "Final, Modéré, presque vif, avec une grande joie".
About quiet endings in a concert: for some pieces, it wouldn't feel weird to just get up and leave at the end. The first work for which this approach would seem fitting that popped up in my mind is the Shostakovich 13. To me personally that work is so monumental, so impressive and demanding of respect that I the only appropriate reaction in my mind is to let out a sigh, walk to my car, stare ahead for a few seconds, and drive home without the radio on with only the echo of that final bell toll to accompany me. It would be unfortunate to not applaud the orchestra and all others who were involved, especially at a great performance, so I wouldn't suggest any audience actually do this, but to me it wouldn't be that weird either.
One conductor I played for put the Brahms 3rd second to last, and ended with Academic Festival Overture last.....
yes, maybe i will add 3 more. Ludolf Nielsen 3, Haydn Farewell (that started It all, basically) and for 21st centry Henze's 9.
Well, henze came in 1997, sorry, I should write for modern times
I wonder. When Norrington gave a concert, did he structure them like they would have back then, or would the fact it was an actual practice scare him away?
Great video! Might recommend Sibelius 4, I don't think anything else would make sense in the context of the piece, especially after that ambiguous 1st movement ending on the floaty unison A, Get a strong reminder of Tchaik 6
That ending is actually mezzo-forte.
Hey good evening Dave! Thank you for this very interesting topic! What about a talk also about quiet ending operas?
No, that's pretty normal and determined by the libretto, so it's not strictly a musical issue at all.
Got your point! Thank you
I believe some of the Rubbra symphonies end quietly.
Bax 4 ends loudly too of course and the only one that (begins and) ends with organ.
Yes, I thought so. I remembered the opening, but not the ending until after I talked about 1 and 5.
Wasn't there a performance tradition of playing the Tchaikovsky Pathetique with the order of the 3rd and 4th movements reversed? I don't know if audiences disliked the quiet ending, but supposedly a lot of conductors did.
Throw out there for your consideration bernstein Symphony number 1
That's in a different category, I think, but the presence of a sung text creates its own natural climax, and the challenge there is to create the most appropriate setting for the words. Same with Mahler's 4th.
I think Vaughan Williams 6th is a quiet ending symphony that has to end a concert. Nothing can follow that ending. His 5th can be a great first half work. But not 6.
Now. My problem with Elgar's 2nd is that, though the first three movements show an advance over the 1st and are wonderful--for me what he came up with for the principal theme of the last movement is such a letdown, dismayingly banal and trite, almost childish. I'll grant that he recovers lost ground later in the movement but still...sorry.
(Ducking for cover.)
I can understand that. I don't think the finale is as fine as the first three movements, at least not until it gets going a few minutes in.
@@IP-zv1ih Actually, I'm not interested in his opinion at all.