I already put my name in the queue for this and I have a Cybertruck currently, I love the fact it will have a gas extender. I am leery of taking my Cybertruck very far from home for fear of not being able to charge, which defeats the purpose of having this awesome offroad and camping vehicle. I will sell my Cybertruck and buy this Scout when it is available in 2027~
1.) I don't think you need as much HP for the REx to make sense 2.) don't forget that VW also owns Ducati 3.) an optimised 1.2 TDI from the Polo/Fabia/Ibiza would make an awesome long lasting compact efficient generator 4.) the Scouts do really really look good indeed
The gas engine will not need to be nearly as large as you suggest. At minimum, all it needs to do is supply the *average* power required to move the vehicle at the maximum design speed (e.g.: 75 - 85mph), meaning the vehicle could go that fast (on average) without draining the battery at all. The *most* it would need to do is provide that plus recharge the battery at whatever the electric energy consumption is at a similar speed (maybe ~0.5 kwhr per mile. Neither of these are anywhere near 100hp for a vehicle like the Scout. In the past, the problem has been EPA rules that severely limit the size of the fuel tank in EREVs. Hopefully, that will change with the new administration.
Great breakdown on how this may come together and I have to say I am pretty excited about this. As a first year model Chevy Volt owner (that I also was on a waiting list to buy) the range extender tech worked great in that vehicle and we always thought of our Volt as an EV first but without range anxiety. Took it on several multi day trips with no issue relying on gas for 95% of those journeys. But at home, we rarely used gas so it literally was the best of both worlds. But... folks will also need to realize it's the worst of both worlds. As a current full EV owner (Mustang Mach E which finally replaced the Volt in 2022), I have enjoyed maintenance free for 2 years of ownership, But with our Volt, we still had to do regular oil changes and other maintenance just like any gas car. That being said, I put a deposit down for the Traveler with Range Extender because I think more folks need this option in order to fully jump into the EV world (so therefore it will help with resale, etc.). Seriously, my Volt experience is likely why I was not hesitant to buy a full EV because I realized in 11 years of ownership, even with its lousy 40 mile battery range, we still mostly drove on said battery! TBH, more EVs should be adding this at least as an option, to help win over hesitant EV buyers. Personally, I would have assumed the gas engine would go in the frunk, just like our Volt, so the fact they are trying to avoid that is a plus. And yes, the Volt required premium but that shouldn't be a big deal for anyone getting this as most miles will always be cheaper electric energy (if anyone disagrees with that then just buy it and see). Premium fuel was also said to be required because it has longer shelf life than regular gas and GM assumed gas would sit in the tank for months at at time before being consumed (which was very true). The engine would actually come on automatically after several weeks just to keep everything lubed and fresh, which the Scout would likely need to do as well.
Thankyou, you made me feel better about buying the vehicle. The first few comments made it sound like they knew more about the truck than I think they do.
@@panzer948👍 i3 REx (115k miles) owner with similar experience. We cover 24k miles each year on 30 gallons of gas. We NEVER have a reason to use our 4runner unless picking up a fridge or towing. Engineer all cars as EVs, then offer a EREV option is the way forward.
@@donswier Glad to hear it. 3 or 4 years ago I thought the push for new EVs was strong enough but the interest has definitely slowed down. However, if you look at posts about the new Scout, it does appear it is gaining some steam with many, mostly due to this gas extender option. I hope its successful.
As a previous Volt owner I agree whole heartedly. I loved that car, I had always wished that technology would make it to a truck someday. I wasn't a full believer in full EV, and I don't know if I ever will be. I have a reservation for a Ramcharger, but I also have my reservations whether it will ever see the light of day with the Stellantis woes. I now have reservations on both versions of the Harvester, as I believe if everything comes in as promised, it should be a home run. My wife's lease will be up near the projected availability time. And I can hang onto my Diesel until whenever. And I have my 2door Bronco, it's my daily go anywhere, park anywhere "economy" car ;)
I’m still leaning toward a small boxer engine but you do have a good point on the exhaust. I disagree about the power requirements; this engine can start at any time, it doesn’t have to run the vehicle on a depleted battery. It can be set to start adding power at 30% or even 60% state of charge, blending in the power would drastically reduce the generators kw requirements.
@@jefferyboehmer2014 Great question. For example Toyota has been using nickel-metal hydride batteries, because they last longer through drain cycles, so maintain reliability and are much safer, as in no risk of your vehicle spontaneously combusting due to a malfunction in your truck's lithium-ion battery packs.
Preliminary price for the entry level Scout is 50-60K. Who knows if that number will stick. I get your point and do not disagree. If the target price turns out to be true it will be comparable to ICE vehicles in its class with other SUV’s and mid-sized trucks. Time will tell.
It's a beautiful design and in my opinion, closely follows the original design. Very glad to see these come along. I myself and looking forward to the gasoline only models that will follow.
Really good analysis of a most intriguing option on the new Terra and Traveler. The most simple answer for the REX option is the 1.5l turbo 4 cyl that we see in the Taos and Jetta, currently at 174hp output. I had a '19 Jetta with the 1.4 turbo at 147hp and that engine was quiet and largely vibration free. The larger engine allows for the engine to run at a more relaxed rpm for a specific output, good for NVH. Also of interest is the extreme rear placement of the engine as this will further isolate from NVH. My bet on the fuel tank location is at the front of the vehicle, perhaps behind and below where HVAC and electrics are located.
They aren't going to spec it to operate solely from the electricity provided by the engine under all circumstances, so it doesn't need a 130kW (peak) engine. It's a range-extender to deliver a steady charge rate, not a petrol-electric vehicle like the Honda CRV eHEV. They would likely need around 30kW or so to operate at highway speeds. Even a 1.0 or 1.2 VW enigne operating at 1500-2000 rpm comfortably makes 30-40kW. Really, if they made the decision to use a diesel, the range could be incredible. Diesel-electric is one of the most efficient powertrains out there, the US seems to have some sort of aversion to diesel though so those chances are pretty darn slim I'd imagine.
I think the philosophy is different than the RAM V6 Range extender. You don't want a run a small engine like that at 100+ HP output for hours on end. Engines used for generator duty will usually run at LOWER output than in automotive usage. If it's a small 3 Cylinder. it will probably only produce 80 HP so it isn't overstressed constantly. You use it to slow the rate of your battery depletion, not to run the truck when the battery is empty (except in light load situations). IOW you aren't going to run down the battery and then tow on that small range extender.
exactly. If the RE could generate enough power to run the vehicle at full spec then there would be no upper limit to the range with the engine running. The benefit of the RE is that you can "self charge" even if you cant find a charging station... not drive at full power on gas alone. I don't know if the scouts will have it or not, but I would very much appreciate a gas only "limp" mode that could get you home at 30mph or so after a brief charge period of RE operation.
Mahle sells a four stroke gasoline, 900cc twin cyl with integrated generator and 40kW output as REX. This might be enough to charge the battery in most demanding highway situations at speed.
You'd need about a 30kw Geny to keep it going at highway speed assuming 2.5mi/kwh. That's 45hp so there's the min ice. The Rivian max pack is 140kw and propels an R1S about 400 miles. The harvester is about the same vehicle. Th Gen will consume 3 gal per hour so you'll be needing a 6-9 gallon tank.
@@LarsDennert a larger battery and smaller engine would make more sense than requiring an engine capable of sustaining freeway speeds. 500 mile range doesn’t mean you can indefinitely keep filling up with gas and maintain freeway speeds.
@@johnleeinslc It wouldn't make sense to design a REEV to still run out of battery under normal conditions. I'd expect the ICE to produce enough power to maintain charge even with modest towing, city driving and hills. but If they do hit the 10k lb towing spec, I'm guessing it might not be able to indefinitly pull that with the ICE. to do that you'd need to go much closer to the Ramcharger engine size.
@@linuxpenguin823 that's a good point.. Maintaining battery charge while towing is much different than maintaining highway speeds with a dead battery. That's probably why the Ramcharger is getting a 130kw V6. I'd personally be happy with just the highway speeds with a dead battery. But I'm not like most, and I want it to have a turbo.
I’ve owned a BMW REX i3. Really miss that little car. I used the “generator” only a few times always on purpose to clear the 3gal tank of old fuel. Let me tell you, when the HV battery is dead and the vehicle needs to rely on the gas generator to charge the battery driveability gets SEVERELY limited. Freeway driving was sketchy at best. And that was basically a small hatchback made primarily of carbon fiber. A full size truck/SUV will take a generator that is capable of putting out a lot of kW to be driveable. Towing is very unlikely unless that generator starts creeping up to the size of a “normal” ICE (see what Dodge has done there?). Either that or maybe there’s new tech now that wasn’t available when I had my i3. Not dumping on the Scout, I hope they succeed and add another option for us EV folks. I like the look of both the truck and SUV, somewhat similar to Rivian (I own and R1S). I’m just a little skeptical about using the REX to add “mileage” on what will probably be a 7,000 lb vehicle that is meant to carry and tow stuff.
I think they should offer a typical hybrid and focus on a full ev that will get 420 miles. This will satisfy the folks who just want a gas engine and the folks who don't want any gas involved.
BMW i3 is tuned for 35 hp. Since the engine runs at a constant speed, and the battery is used for torque, so they will not need that much HP. Speculation, but maybe an non turbo 3cyl detuned to 70 HP would be adequate.
Mike, I think the range extender engine will be much smaller than the 1 liter 3-cylinder option you mentioned in your video. If I were to guess, I think they go with one of VW's 2-cylinder diesel engines (or possibly a 2-cylinder motorcycle engine from Ducati) to run the onboard generator. The engine will need to be really small, but still have the high torque that is necessary to run the generator at a low RPM that is quiet under load. I had also read that the generator will kick on once the range of the vehicle reached 150 miles, which means the generator will start charging the battery for more than 2.5 hours ahead of when the battery would have fully discharged (my example assumes you're driving at a steady rate of 70 mph on the interstate). The motor would then continue to run another 2 hours, for a total of 4.5 hours run-time, recharging the battery at a rate of around 33 miles per hour. This would get you to 500 miles range if the battery pack was capable of 350 miles on its own.
We should first try to figure out how many hp would be required to maintain say 70mph steady state. If we assume that the range extender does not attempt to recharge the battery and drive the electric motor at the same time, the power required from the engine should be no more than required for that steady state driving. I think I saw somewhere that a typical car only requires 20hp to maintain a steady state of 70mph. That is overcoming aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance. We already see that the Scout has poor aerodynamic design so let’s assume it requires the 40hp. If we moreover want said engine to run at 70% of capacity, the motor would need to be 57hp, which is about 43kw. My thinking is that VW will use a small 2 or 3 cylinder as you suggest and derate it significantly for durability. It would be sweet if it was a 800 to 1000cc small turbo diesel, but I guess with EPA and Euro6 emissions insanity won’t let that happen, so next best thing is Regular unleaded. It would be great if the Scout had the possibility to run the range extender to recharge while driving, or bypass the charger and drive the motor directly while conserving battery.
I know everyone hates this idea, but I hope the engine has at least a small turbo. Something cheap and easy to replace at 100 k miles. A big one is even better. I want this because I live at high altitude where the air is thin.
@@knutbergan I am assuming Scout will employ a similar engineering model as the BMW i3, which had a 647cc 2 cylinder from their BMW motorcycle range. That motor was 38 HP and was ONLY responsible for driving the onboard generator. The Scout generator motor will need to be bigger - using this formula to achieve 35 kW charge rate: 35 kilowatts×1.341 horsepower per kilowatt≈46.935 horsepower. For example, Ducati has some motors that produce more than enough power. If Scout used the 110 HP V-twin motor from their Desert X line of motorcycles, that motor could be run at a steady 4100 RPM (engine maxes out at approx. 10,000 rpm) and achieve the necessary power output to meet their charging requirement. However, I don't believe a V-twin motor would be the right configuration for the Scout application to meet their packaging requirement. Instead, they would most likely use a parallel twin or a boxer motor to fit within the space beneath the rear cargo area. I doubt Scout is considering a 3-cylinder motor for their application considering there are many 2-cylinder motors on the market that produce ample HP to drive the generator.
I bought a new scout in 1973, with V8 in Brookings, Oregon, it was also the Napa dealer a little later I own a international full-size pick up 4 x 4 and there SUV wagon that was kind of like a suburban, anyway the 73 really got poor gas mileage when they tried to load on a lot of smog control stuff in the early days. It was hard to get 10 miles per gallon out of it maybe eight anyway it was pretty awesome four-wheel-drive, can’t remember the price right now ist probably around $4500-5500.
4:13 theory doesn’t make sense to me. TFL EV got a little glimpse under the Terra prototype which have the Rex. Under it you could see a single small exhaust outlet towards the front of the truck. And they asked them to open the frunk on the truck but only opened it on the SUV making me think that the engine is in the front probably causing a reduce in the size of the frunk.
It would be disappointing to lose out on the "frunk" space on the Terra since that seems like such an ideal spot to stow items you want to carry all the time. I agree though that it was a little suspect they wouldn't open the hood of the Terra to take a peak.
Jerryrig Everything was able to look in the frunk of the truck, and it looked about the same size as the SUV, though considering how little of the space under the hood the frunk actually takes up, I still think the engine is under there, behind the frunk
The consideration that you didn’t use to calibrate engine requirements was weight, which is probably the most important factor in considering power systems. But you’re probably close enough lol in that its needs will be more analogous to a RAM truck. However the engines you mention are generally likely ‘tall’ in its standard operating profile. To be in the back means not a lot of height to work with. The engine will probably have to lie horizontally flat to maintain the low profile in the back. This would affect the layout of the sump and/or also means the lubrication systems ie a dry sump - which saves a few inches in height.
good breakdown with the minimal info available, nice work. have a feeling we'll be seeing more of this REX implementation, very logical to bypass ICE for driving demands, and just feed the battery packs via passthru charging. eventually, I think we'll see these gennys become modular, and owners will be able to put on hitch carrier or roof rack as they need, for quick plug and play setup.
VW Brasil produces 2 variations of the 1.0L EA211 in a lot of cars since early 2010s. A lot of people tune both engines and easily getting 140 cv. Since the generator will be only controlled by the car computer, it is feasible to extract more power, if necessary, without any risks to the engine. The best part is that using ethanol, or E85, which is a "green"er fuel, it can produce even more power. Stock 200TSi will produce 128cv on E100.
You should look at chinese market to see how popular gas extended range EVs are. One of fastest growing car companies Li Xiang almost exlusively produce such reEV SUV's, Geely's subbrand Lync&co not far behind with full lineup of reEV SUVs and almost every other big chinese brand have at least a model or two. The recipe though is quite similar - 500-600 hp combined electric motors paired with about 50kwt battery, usually using as a range extender 1.5T four-cylinder gasoline engine mounted under the hood and a 50 to 60l fuel tank. Interestingly though chinese brands usually advertize their cars to have around 700 to 900 miles of combined range, which is obviously not true, but it still begs the question why Scout being two years down the road couldn't even theoreticaly present similar numbers?
I wonder if the range extender will be required to propel the vehicle by providing enough energy to the motors, OR just smaller as to recharge the battery during a short stop. Often, when properly monitored, a short charge is all that is necessary to make up the shortfall to the next charge station, especially since they are using the superior NACS system.
it would be easy to make the 1.0 3 cyl a 1.3L (just by stroking out the engine), and then make it Atkinson cycle. It could also require premium, or even run on E85 for more horsepower for better generator function. It could also be supercharged. remember these will only need to be constant speed engines, so they can be tuned to deliver extremely efficient HP at a particular RPM. And the RPM won't need to be like emergency generators who make AC power and need to be RPM some divisible of 60hz.... I like the idea of a REEV. I think it solves many problems with the current BEV SUVs and pickups.
Great looking concepts. I will look forward to seeing what they come up with but won't be holding my breath for another new car company to succeed or fail. After watching Fisker destruct I am being more careful and Rivian's new offerings stand a much better chance of being good from the start.
I think this is a question I hope VW answers in its planning. Does the motor warm up the cold battery during winter, or does it heat the vehicle when remotely started? If the motor can be removed, what is its purpose? If it's a stand-alone generator, how does it offset the weight of the motor, like a mini crane? Can the motor serve other purposes, and is its cooling, exhaust, and fuel system self-contained or adaptable for different fuels? If the motor I’d like to know if it's possible to increase voltage output in a vehicle. I’d love to hear people's thoughts on this. If it is regularly removed, can the case have a protected shell so that in transport, it is not damaged?
@@darwinskeeper421 also Chinese extended ev don’t have frunk, cause there is 1,5L classic engine inside. But harvester invented smth new and it’s interesting how they managed to displace it
Good job reviewing progress on product. Reviving Scout historical name is Cool . Hybrid is interesting. Built in generator for range extension makes sense. List Price is never attractive . We’ll see if VW quality justifies considering this product. Stylist did great work.
I think you may have overlooked the needed horsepower for this thing. First, an EREV doesn't have a mechanical linkage to the wheels. The electric motor powers the wheels entirely. You only need a generator spinning at a constant RPM to generate electricity. No need for a transmission or anything. VW has previously mentioned that this vehicle will share zero parts with any VW... so you do not need to worry about repackaging some VW engine in this thing. And as the above implies, there is no use case for one of their engines being repurposed in this vehicle. No.... I believe they will likely create a small generator operating at an optimized speed for replenishing the batteries. This could be quite small... more akin to what you can find in modern generators. As for the gas tank I think I remember seeing a slide where they remove the rear 1/3 of the battery and replace it with a tank.
The biggest concern I have with this arrangement is fire safety in the event of a crash. It is known that lithium batteries are highly flammable and fires are hard to put out. Combine that with fuel lines running alongside the battery from front to back and a tank somewhere nearby, and I just feel like that amplifies the risk even more. I would wait until we see some results from crash and or safety / testing. Accidents can happen, even if it was not your fault as the driver, and I would not want to risk my family's lives in the event of a crash.
This is the way. 95% of my driving is short cange. But when I go camping or on roadtrips I don't want a pure EV. You could overland in one of these1. I've personally got my eyes on the RAM Charger because it's setup like this but can also tow a 5th wheel.
I’m guessing that you will be able to park the truck and let the gasoline engine run and charge the vehicle either while you’re sitting in it or going in someplace to run errands in order to minimize charging downtime. I think it’s also safe to say that this vehicle, optioned out with the range extender and all the other options that people are going to actually want is going to be double what they are claiming the introductory price to be. 50,000 will probably just get your foot in the door for the lowest trim package but auctioned out the way you actually wanted it will probably be at or above $100,000.
Good video my friend, u can also explore such cars as Voyah Free and Lixiang. They use similar technology by using engine only to recharge battery. They are the most advanced
what about opinion that they will use flat engine form Porsche brand like base 2.o boxer engine from boxter/cayman?? anybody think that is possible? at least it is epa certified?
I wonder if they have considered using the front motor as the generator. They would then need only add an engine to create the range extender. Ok, you wouldn't be able to use the range extender at the same time as 4wd, but most people on longer trips don't need 4wd.
These SCOUTs look awesome!!! Hey guys! Search for the BYD Shark pickup truck. That's an already-in-mass-production REEV with a total range of 500-600 miles. Even tho they are announcing these Scouts today, releasing them by 2027 may be a little late to the market.
@@jdelgadocr but the BYD Shark is not available in the US! And is build in China… SCOUT is a US Brand… and would be produced in the USA! The BYD Shark is in production since August 2024,..
A shame the government basically banned them. Charging 100% tariffs on any Chinese ev. Basically propping up the American ev market. Cause you know that always worked out well in the past.
No, the platform was designed by Magna Steyr. And it superficially resembles a Rivian because both this and the Rivian take styling cues from the original Scout.
As other have said, this motor will be much smaller. I am going to guess 40 HP or so. They should make it so the engine and genset can drop out for service. This is a hard application. On one hand, it will not start and stop a lot, nor should it see that many clock hours unless the owner is constantly taking road trips over 300 miles. On the other hand it will run hard when it runs and with sound insulation and it could get hot.
I suspect part of the reason RAM is using their V6 is primarily to entice buyers who wouldn't buy a truck "with a puny 4 cylinder", and because they already make a ton of that engine and so, manufacturing efficiency. Lightning towing consumption is about 1mi/kWh (maybe a little worse but not much), and you're probably not greatly exceeding 60mph towing, RAM will be similar unless their e-motor drivetrain efficiency is AWFUL. So, they could use about half the engine for the REX, maybe 70-80 kW for "margin", and been fine. As other comments have noted, a well managed 90+ kWh battery and REX system would handle a large towing load very effectively for 500+ miles with a decent sized fuel tank. And every other scenario is less taxing on efficiency (my Lightning was using about 60kWh/100km = 1mi/kWh at -40c / 70mph last winter, which is the other EV naysayer argument)
I owned an i3rex, and its problem was that once the battery was depleted, it would need the engine to propel the vehicle, so it was either draining the battery, or using the generator to drive the motors. Why not start the engine as soon as you start your trip. The battery lasts way longer, and at the end of your 500 mile range you then need to both charge your battery and refuel your tank.
This was called "hold mode" and was an option in Europe that you could flash into your united states car. It was left out because of legal definitions defining plug in hybrid vs electric range extended vehicle. It also impacted subsidies and emissions credits
Because the goal is to only burn gas when needed, not every trip. What would be the point of an EV if you were always burning gas? I want the cost savings of doing most of my driving on electricity and charging at home, saving gas usage for just road trips.
@@TroySavary Few trips are as long as 500 miles. I rarely drive 500 miles without planning to drive 500 miles. While a manual control would be necessary for an off road EV with range extender, very few people would intentionally turn on the range extender for very short trips, especially if they were paying for gas when home charging is so much cheaper. Better than the manual control would be to have the navigation computer in charge to minimize running a much smaller and lighter engine. A smaller lighter engine that ran earlier in the drive cycle - only on longer trips - would consume less gas than a larger engine capable of supplying all the motive power required. Requiring an engine that supplies all the power that the motors need at 75mph is a wasteful constraint on vehicle design. Lugging around this larger engine that rarely gets used will make it a much worse EV.
@@andrewfromphysics2921 , yea, hold mode was kinda stupid too, and requires a larger engine that I would prefer. Why have an engine large enough to maintain current SOC if you have a 500 mile range? The i3 Rex was designed in an era when the charge infrastructure was less ubiquitous. A 500 mile range extended EV does not need an engine large enough to sustain the SOC of the battery.
For the gas engine REV versions they should just get rid of the frunks and put the engines there for easy access for maintenance. This could open up more engine options, like the VW diesel - and allow for a placement of a spare tire for the Terra, which apparently doesn't have one currently.
I agree for more street oriented vehicles. They placed an emphasis on accommodating adventuring families like the bench seat option on all models and trims. That also means a lot of gear needs to be stored. Having both compartments available even with the generator being less accessible. As the industry shifts more to EVs there will be more and more 3rd party shops that can work on them.
From a purely functional perspective a small diesel would make more sense. if it is a generator and not a prime mover, there are already CARB,EPA ready devices in use in the commercial truck and RV space. More KW of output per displacement and gallon. Diesel also is more forgiving of sparse use where gasoline is not. Obviously from a perception of "green" diesel is a tougher call in North America.
The VW 1L triple is a fair bit smaller than the reddish box at the rear You could fit 2 transversely between the wheel arches of a large SUV ;-) So those 3 round thingies in the illustration are not exhaust ports for a 1L VW triple, those are way closer together VW also has a 1.2L and 1.4L TSI engines that would more easily pump out 100 kW - but the 1.0L is the more reliable
I don't think the engine will be connected to the wheels, it will just serve as a 50 amp 240 v output generator to recharge the battery automatically starting at 30% charge for example. It won't have enough power to propel this heavy vehicle in an efficient manner.
COMMUNITY NOTE: A few things about the information this person provides that is wrong. 1) it isn't the engine size, number of cylinders or fuel type used that creates electrical energy, it's the way in which generating power is coupled to that engine to recharge or charge the batteries while the vehicle is moving or stationary. 2) VW could put a few high amperage alternators in line and create a powerful regen system with as little 1.0 liter engine size or less. Size does not matter, what they are probably looking for is quiet, smooth and fuel efficient as one can get in today's world. Great video though, just needed to inform those watching corrected facts.
The laws of thermodynamics still apply. I agree the discussion around the needed engine was a bit cumbersome, but the OP is not wrong: You can't use a 60hp engine to drive a generator that produces 100kW, for example (1hp = 746W). In fact, thanks to heat and friction losses, you won't even get close to the 44kW you might expect. The Range Extender (ice) does not need to be powerful enough to supply full power to the EV motor or to charge the battery bank in any given amount of time. It is possible (IMO likely) that the ICE on this vehicle will be considerably smaller than that described - maybe something on order of 60-80 net HP (45-60kW).
Why not be a naturally aspirated range extender? Gas turbo would be overcomplicated and a repair/maintenance headache. Love the overall design and range extender option. First EV i'd actually consider. Be much more comfortable with TDi range extender if has to have a turbo.
A turbo makes the engine more efficient and let's you use a smaller engine, that also increases efficiency. Isn't reliability of turbos good nowadays? And running as a generator gives much less wear because of constant load, constant rpm and no jerks from the wheels.
@@matt45540 I’ m guessing the mining equipment is like the locomotive: uses the electric drive as a transmission for maximum tractability. Volt is gone and never really lived up to the hype. The i3 might have been an ok city car in Europe, but didn’t do well in other markets. The range extender didn’t seem to help much. There’s a reason the dominant hybrids are all parallel or plugin-parallel.
parallel hybrids dominate most due to cost. for a long time it's been way cheaper to have a tiny battery and electric motor that gets charge from a cheap ICE and then combine the two in a fancy transmission for power. Now that batteries and electric motors have come way down in cost series may be feasible. It definitely lowers the drivetrain complexity quite a bit.
The current Rivian that gets 349 miles of range has a 149kwh battery. Not sure how you get 180kwh or more. The MPGE of the Hummer is bad compared to the Rivian.
Yeah Im putting my money on the VR6 engine as the range extender. Heres why: 1) Efficiency not peak power Rams pentastar 3.6 v6 is a 300ish hp engine. In the ramcharger its putting out 174hp. Thats cuz its tuned to run in its most efficient rev range all the time. Not at its peak where it is the least efficient. Customers looking to tow want the range extender to be fuel efficient at power levels required for highway towing. Turbos are not good at this. The VR6 engine used in the VW Atlas is perfect analogue to the Stellantis pentastar engine but better. 2) packaging and complexity VR6 came in a golf yall... it is the same footprint as the 1.8L-2.5L engines, but it displaces up to 3.6L. It only has 1 cylinder head and 1 pair of camshafts. 1 intake and 1 exhaust. Its whole gimmick is that its a v6 with both banks squished together. It has 1 intake manifold and 1 exhaust manifold and 1 set of timing chains packaged just like any other 4 cylinder. That also means 1 catalytic converter and O2 sensor. This engine omits intercooler, turbo, wastegate, fancy watercooled exhaust header, stronger pistons, stronger crankshaft, stronger bearings, oversized injectors and im sure a bunch of other expensive things to support running an engine with boost. 3) low engine load for required power demand A vr6 with its displacement will be much less stressed to provide the 100-150kw constantly in varying temperatures. No boost means we can increase compression ratios and run fancy cam phasing and lobe profiles to do atkinson cycle, miller cycle or exhaust gas valve based EGR. Basically run in super efficient mode with low stress and cheaper parts, OR cheaper gas and get the output required by the customer. A 1.0T trying to do its peak power constantly would have a horrible time and not last very long. 4) no EREV cars have turbos. And if you take that away from volkswagens line up the vr6 is the only engine left large enough for the job, small enough to fit, but cheap enough to help it hit its price goal
If im on a 1000 mile trip, and ive run out of charge and gas, and I go fill the tank (but don't charge), how far can I go before i need to fill up or charge again?
I’ve had this same question. Is this engine able to keep up with the electric discharge? Would I have to stop only to refuel and keep going? This would solve my only issue with the EV setups.
1 gallon of gasoline has 33.7kWh of energy. If they can get 50% thermal efficiency out of the engine then 1 gallon = 16 kWh of battery charge. With the ram charger having a 92 kwh battery could be charged by its range extender with 5.75 gallons of gas if the engine was 50% thermally efficient. The Honda odyssey engine is about the same size and is also rated as being over 39% thermal efficiency. Chinese engines have crossed the 50g thermal efficiency bench mark too. Seems to be easier on range extenders. And 130kw is about 174hp. Let's not forget that the biggest engine that ever went into a scout was the 5.7L v8 with 194hp. Should be fine to run with empty battery.
@andrewfromphysics2921 Man it's been like 20 years since I took any engineering classes...could u dumb it down and tell me how far I could go after filling up an EREV? I want to know if it road trips like an EV or an ICE. Thanks!!
short answer is we really don't know as we're guessing at a lot due to the total lack of specs so far. It's possible to do it in ways that it could be like driving an ICE or it could be done so it's like an EV. We just don't know how they did it yet
The 1L turbo engine is still way too big. It also has unnecessary accessories like alternator and compressor bolted on. EV don't need those. I think 4 cylinder motorcycle engines are better choices. With proper muffling they can be very quiet.
That engine would have no chance to maintain or at least slow battery depletion enough when towing. Towing is one of the main reasons to buy a series hybrid so surely needs to be an engine that can keep the battery topped up - that 3 cylinder would have no chance…boxer maybe?
I already put my name in the queue for this and I have a Cybertruck currently, I love the fact it will have a gas extender. I am leery of taking my Cybertruck very far from home for fear of not being able to charge, which defeats the purpose of having this awesome offroad and camping vehicle. I will sell my Cybertruck and buy this Scout when it is available in 2027~
1.) I don't think you need as much HP for the REx to make sense
2.) don't forget that VW also owns Ducati
3.) an optimised 1.2 TDI from the Polo/Fabia/Ibiza would make an awesome long lasting compact efficient generator
4.) the Scouts do really really look good indeed
The gas engine will not need to be nearly as large as you suggest. At minimum, all it needs to do is supply the *average* power required to move the vehicle at the maximum design speed (e.g.: 75 - 85mph), meaning the vehicle could go that fast (on average) without draining the battery at all. The *most* it would need to do is provide that plus recharge the battery at whatever the electric energy consumption is at a similar speed (maybe ~0.5 kwhr per mile. Neither of these are anywhere near 100hp for a vehicle like the Scout.
In the past, the problem has been EPA rules that severely limit the size of the fuel tank in EREVs. Hopefully, that will change with the new administration.
Great breakdown on how this may come together and I have to say I am pretty excited about this. As a first year model Chevy Volt owner (that I also was on a waiting list to buy) the range extender tech worked great in that vehicle and we always thought of our Volt as an EV first but without range anxiety. Took it on several multi day trips with no issue relying on gas for 95% of those journeys. But at home, we rarely used gas so it literally was the best of both worlds. But... folks will also need to realize it's the worst of both worlds. As a current full EV owner (Mustang Mach E which finally replaced the Volt in 2022), I have enjoyed maintenance free for 2 years of ownership, But with our Volt, we still had to do regular oil changes and other maintenance just like any gas car. That being said, I put a deposit down for the Traveler with Range Extender because I think more folks need this option in order to fully jump into the EV world (so therefore it will help with resale, etc.). Seriously, my Volt experience is likely why I was not hesitant to buy a full EV because I realized in 11 years of ownership, even with its lousy 40 mile battery range, we still mostly drove on said battery! TBH, more EVs should be adding this at least as an option, to help win over hesitant EV buyers.
Personally, I would have assumed the gas engine would go in the frunk, just like our Volt, so the fact they are trying to avoid that is a plus. And yes, the Volt required premium but that shouldn't be a big deal for anyone getting this as most miles will always be cheaper electric energy (if anyone disagrees with that then just buy it and see). Premium fuel was also said to be required because it has longer shelf life than regular gas and GM assumed gas would sit in the tank for months at at time before being consumed (which was very true). The engine would actually come on automatically after several weeks just to keep everything lubed and fresh, which the Scout would likely need to do as well.
Thank you for sharing your experience with the Volt and your additional insight!
Thankyou, you made me feel better about buying the vehicle. The first few comments made it sound like they knew more about the truck than I think they do.
@@panzer948👍 i3 REx (115k miles) owner with similar experience.
We cover 24k miles each year on 30 gallons of gas.
We NEVER have a reason to use our 4runner unless picking up a fridge or towing.
Engineer all cars as EVs, then offer a EREV option is the way forward.
@@donswier Glad to hear it. 3 or 4 years ago I thought the push for new EVs was strong enough but the interest has definitely slowed down. However, if you look at posts about the new Scout, it does appear it is gaining some steam with many, mostly due to this gas extender option. I hope its successful.
As a previous Volt owner I agree whole heartedly. I loved that car, I had always wished that technology would make it to a truck someday. I wasn't a full believer in full EV, and I don't know if I ever will be. I have a reservation for a Ramcharger, but I also have my reservations whether it will ever see the light of day with the Stellantis woes. I now have reservations on both versions of the Harvester, as I believe if everything comes in as promised, it should be a home run. My wife's lease will be up near the projected availability time. And I can hang onto my Diesel until whenever. And I have my 2door Bronco, it's my daily go anywhere, park anywhere "economy" car ;)
I’m still leaning toward a small boxer engine but you do have a good point on the exhaust. I disagree about the power requirements; this engine can start at any time, it doesn’t have to run the vehicle on a depleted battery. It can be set to start adding power at 30% or even 60% state of charge, blending in the power would drastically reduce the generators kw requirements.
Blending in charging during drive. How will that affect the overall life expectancy of the battery life?
@ as long as it’s not a full cycle, it will only help.
@@jefferyboehmer2014 Great question. For example Toyota has been using nickel-metal hydride batteries, because they last longer through drain cycles, so maintain reliability and are much safer, as in no risk of your vehicle spontaneously combusting due to a malfunction in your truck's lithium-ion battery packs.
Super excited about this development. Old school looks and modern tech with power. Love the looks of both. Toughest decision is which one to get!
I think the pickup version is more utilitarian. But the SUV offers more excitement lol
Great another 100k electric vehicle few can afford
Preliminary price for the entry level Scout is 50-60K. Who knows if that number will stick. I get your point and do not disagree. If the target price turns out to be true it will be comparable to ICE vehicles in its class with other SUV’s and mid-sized trucks. Time will tell.
Id rather the ineos for this than a rivian clone by vw 😂
I know I couldn't decide either so I reserved both and will decide later.
It's a beautiful design and in my opinion, closely follows the original design. Very glad to see these come along. I myself and looking forward to the gasoline only models that will follow.
Really good analysis of a most intriguing option on the new Terra and Traveler. The most simple answer for the REX option is the 1.5l turbo 4 cyl that we see in the Taos and Jetta, currently at 174hp output. I had a '19 Jetta with the 1.4 turbo at 147hp and that engine was quiet and largely vibration free. The larger engine allows for the engine to run at a more relaxed rpm for a specific output, good for NVH. Also of interest is the extreme rear placement of the engine as this will further isolate from NVH. My bet on the fuel tank location is at the front of the vehicle, perhaps behind and below where HVAC and electrics are located.
I don’t think most people understand how much 100kw of battery looks like. Most home solar systems don’t produce 100kw in a couple days of full sun
They aren't going to spec it to operate solely from the electricity provided by the engine under all circumstances, so it doesn't need a 130kW (peak) engine. It's a range-extender to deliver a steady charge rate, not a petrol-electric vehicle like the Honda CRV eHEV.
They would likely need around 30kW or so to operate at highway speeds. Even a 1.0 or 1.2 VW enigne operating at 1500-2000 rpm comfortably makes 30-40kW.
Really, if they made the decision to use a diesel, the range could be incredible. Diesel-electric is one of the most efficient powertrains out there, the US seems to have some sort of aversion to diesel though so those chances are pretty darn slim I'd imagine.
Plus diesel fuel needs to be fresher. If using the extender only here and there, it might be better to use gas.
I think the philosophy is different than the RAM V6 Range extender. You don't want a run a small engine like that at 100+ HP output for hours on end. Engines used for generator duty will usually run at LOWER output than in automotive usage. If it's a small 3 Cylinder. it will probably only produce 80 HP so it isn't overstressed constantly. You use it to slow the rate of your battery depletion, not to run the truck when the battery is empty (except in light load situations).
IOW you aren't going to run down the battery and then tow on that small range extender.
exactly. If the RE could generate enough power to run the vehicle at full spec then there would be no upper limit to the range with the engine running. The benefit of the RE is that you can "self charge" even if you cant find a charging station... not drive at full power on gas alone.
I don't know if the scouts will have it or not, but I would very much appreciate a gas only "limp" mode that could get you home at 30mph or so after a brief charge period of RE operation.
Mahle sells a four stroke gasoline, 900cc twin cyl with integrated generator and 40kW output as REX. This might be enough to charge the battery in most demanding highway situations at speed.
You'd need about a 30kw Geny to keep it going at highway speed assuming 2.5mi/kwh. That's 45hp so there's the min ice. The Rivian max pack is 140kw and propels an R1S about 400 miles. The harvester is about the same vehicle. Th Gen will consume 3 gal per hour so you'll be needing a 6-9 gallon tank.
@@LarsDennert a larger battery and smaller engine would make more sense than requiring an engine capable of sustaining freeway speeds. 500 mile range doesn’t mean you can indefinitely keep filling up with gas and maintain freeway speeds.
@@johnleeinslc It wouldn't make sense to design a REEV to still run out of battery under normal conditions. I'd expect the ICE to produce enough power to maintain charge even with modest towing, city driving and hills. but If they do hit the 10k lb towing spec, I'm guessing it might not be able to indefinitly pull that with the ICE. to do that you'd need to go much closer to the Ramcharger engine size.
@@linuxpenguin823 that's a good point.. Maintaining battery charge while towing is much different than maintaining highway speeds with a dead battery. That's probably why the Ramcharger is getting a 130kw V6. I'd personally be happy with just the highway speeds with a dead battery. But I'm not like most, and I want it to have a turbo.
I’ve owned a BMW REX i3. Really miss that little car. I used the “generator” only a few times always on purpose to clear the 3gal tank of old fuel. Let me tell you, when the HV battery is dead and the vehicle needs to rely on the gas generator to charge the battery driveability gets SEVERELY limited. Freeway driving was sketchy at best. And that was basically a small hatchback made primarily of carbon fiber. A full size truck/SUV will take a generator that is capable of putting out a lot of kW to be driveable. Towing is very unlikely unless that generator starts creeping up to the size of a “normal” ICE (see what Dodge has done there?). Either that or maybe there’s new tech now that wasn’t available when I had my i3. Not dumping on the Scout, I hope they succeed and add another option for us EV folks. I like the look of both the truck and SUV, somewhat similar to Rivian (I own and R1S). I’m just a little skeptical about using the REX to add “mileage” on what will probably be a 7,000 lb vehicle that is meant to carry and tow stuff.
I think they should offer a typical hybrid and focus on a full ev that will get 420 miles. This will satisfy the folks who just want a gas engine and the folks who don't want any gas involved.
BMW i3 is tuned for 35 hp. Since the engine runs at a constant speed, and the battery is used for torque, so they will not need that much HP. Speculation, but maybe an non turbo 3cyl detuned to 70 HP would be adequate.
But if it's a Chinese car they only need Battery for 60-100 mill+ 1.5/2 L turbo engine (50 liters of gasoline)
Mike, I think the range extender engine will be much smaller than the 1 liter 3-cylinder option you mentioned in your video. If I were to guess, I think they go with one of VW's 2-cylinder diesel engines (or possibly a 2-cylinder motorcycle engine from Ducati) to run the onboard generator. The engine will need to be really small, but still have the high torque that is necessary to run the generator at a low RPM that is quiet under load. I had also read that the generator will kick on once the range of the vehicle reached 150 miles, which means the generator will start charging the battery for more than 2.5 hours ahead of when the battery would have fully discharged (my example assumes you're driving at a steady rate of 70 mph on the interstate). The motor would then continue to run another 2 hours, for a total of 4.5 hours run-time, recharging the battery at a rate of around 33 miles per hour. This would get you to 500 miles range if the battery pack was capable of 350 miles on its own.
The VW 2 cyl diesel is only in the VW XL1, providing only 35 kW
@@Wannes_ 500 miles takes 7 hours to drive. A 35kW generator would add 245kWh during that time. 35kW is more than sufficient for a range extended EV.
We should first try to figure out how many hp would be required to maintain say 70mph steady state. If we assume that the range extender does not attempt to recharge the battery and drive the electric motor at the same time, the power required from the engine should be no more than required for that steady state driving. I think I saw somewhere that a typical car only requires 20hp to maintain a steady state of 70mph. That is overcoming aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance. We already see that the Scout has poor aerodynamic design so let’s assume it requires the 40hp. If we moreover want said engine to run at 70% of capacity, the motor would need to be 57hp, which is about 43kw. My thinking is that VW will use a small 2 or 3 cylinder as you suggest and derate it significantly for durability. It would be sweet if it was a 800 to 1000cc small turbo diesel, but I guess with EPA and Euro6 emissions insanity won’t let that happen, so next best thing is Regular unleaded. It would be great if the Scout had the possibility to run the range extender to recharge while driving, or bypass the charger and drive the motor directly while conserving battery.
I know everyone hates this idea, but I hope the engine has at least a small turbo. Something cheap and easy to replace at 100 k miles. A big one is even better. I want this because I live at high altitude where the air is thin.
@@knutbergan I am assuming Scout will employ a similar engineering model as the BMW i3, which had a 647cc 2 cylinder from their BMW motorcycle range. That motor was 38 HP and was ONLY responsible for driving the onboard generator. The Scout generator motor will need to be bigger - using this formula to achieve 35 kW charge rate: 35 kilowatts×1.341 horsepower per kilowatt≈46.935 horsepower. For example, Ducati has some motors that produce more than enough power. If Scout used the 110 HP V-twin motor from their Desert X line of motorcycles, that motor could be run at a steady 4100 RPM (engine maxes out at approx. 10,000 rpm) and achieve the necessary power output to meet their charging requirement. However, I don't believe a V-twin motor would be the right configuration for the Scout application to meet their packaging requirement. Instead, they would most likely use a parallel twin or a boxer motor to fit within the space beneath the rear cargo area. I doubt Scout is considering a 3-cylinder motor for their application considering there are many 2-cylinder motors on the market that produce ample HP to drive the generator.
Great analysis of the potential REV config for the Scouts with call out to other REV EVs.
I bought a new scout in 1973, with V8 in Brookings, Oregon, it was also the Napa dealer a little later I own a international full-size pick up 4 x 4 and there SUV wagon that was kind of like a suburban, anyway the 73 really got poor gas mileage when they tried to load on a lot of smog control stuff in the early days. It was hard to get 10 miles per gallon out of it maybe eight anyway it was pretty awesome four-wheel-drive, can’t remember the price right now ist probably around $4500-5500.
Thanks for analizing this data!
4:13 theory doesn’t make sense to me. TFL EV got a little glimpse under the Terra prototype which have the Rex. Under it you could see a single small exhaust outlet towards the front of the truck. And they asked them to open the frunk on the truck but only opened it on the SUV making me think that the engine is in the front probably causing a reduce in the size of the frunk.
It would be disappointing to lose out on the "frunk" space on the Terra since that seems like such an ideal spot to stow items you want to carry all the time. I agree though that it was a little suspect they wouldn't open the hood of the Terra to take a peak.
frunk prob reduced by onboard fuel tank, which they showed fwd of battery bank.
Jerryrig Everything was able to look in the frunk of the truck, and it looked about the same size as the SUV, though considering how little of the space under the hood the frunk actually takes up, I still think the engine is under there, behind the frunk
Keep in mind that generator engines run in a more limited RPM range. Many IC Engine HP listing are from much higher RPM than needed on a generator.
The consideration that you didn’t use to calibrate engine requirements was weight, which is probably the most important factor in considering power systems. But you’re probably close enough lol in that its needs will be more analogous to a RAM truck. However the engines you mention are generally likely ‘tall’ in its standard operating profile. To be in the back means not a lot of height to work with. The engine will probably have to lie horizontally flat to maintain the low profile in the back. This would affect the layout of the sump and/or also means the lubrication systems ie a dry sump - which saves a few inches in height.
good breakdown with the minimal info available, nice work. have a feeling we'll be seeing more of this REX implementation, very logical to bypass ICE for driving demands, and just feed the battery packs via passthru charging. eventually, I think we'll see these gennys become modular, and owners will be able to put on hitch carrier or roof rack as they need, for quick plug and play setup.
This was my big question as well. Thanks for the vid.
VW Brasil produces 2 variations of the 1.0L EA211 in a lot of cars since early 2010s. A lot of people tune both engines and easily getting 140 cv. Since the generator will be only controlled by the car computer, it is feasible to extract more power, if necessary, without any risks to the engine.
The best part is that using ethanol, or E85, which is a "green"er fuel, it can produce even more power. Stock 200TSi will produce 128cv on E100.
You should look at chinese market to see how popular gas extended range EVs are. One of fastest growing car companies Li Xiang almost exlusively produce such reEV SUV's, Geely's subbrand Lync&co not far behind with full lineup of reEV SUVs and almost every other big chinese brand have at least a model or two. The recipe though is quite similar - 500-600 hp combined electric motors paired with about 50kwt battery, usually using as a range extender 1.5T four-cylinder gasoline engine mounted under the hood and a 50 to 60l fuel tank. Interestingly though chinese brands usually advertize their cars to have around 700 to 900 miles of combined range, which is obviously not true, but it still begs the question why Scout being two years down the road couldn't even theoreticaly present similar numbers?
Any thoughts/estimates as to the number of gallons to fill the tank?
I wonder if the range extender will be required to propel the vehicle by providing enough energy to the motors, OR just smaller as to recharge the battery during a short stop. Often, when properly monitored, a short charge is all that is necessary to make up the shortfall to the next charge station, especially since they are using the superior NACS system.
Put a deposit down for the Terra! I currently have a Rivian R1T quad motor and its been my favorite car. Looking forward to the Terra
it would be easy to make the 1.0 3 cyl a 1.3L (just by stroking out the engine), and then make it Atkinson cycle. It could also require premium, or even run on E85 for more horsepower for better generator function. It could also be supercharged. remember these will only need to be constant speed engines, so they can be tuned to deliver extremely efficient HP at a particular RPM. And the RPM won't need to be like emergency generators who make AC power and need to be RPM some divisible of 60hz.... I like the idea of a REEV. I think it solves many problems with the current BEV SUVs and pickups.
But if it's a Chinese car they only need Battery for 60-100 mill+ 1.5/2 L turbo engine (50 liters of gasoline)
It looks like a small Aquarius engine with two motor-generators; the vehicle itself looks like a cool off-roader.
Great looking concepts. I will look forward to seeing what they come up with but won't be holding my breath for another new car company to succeed or fail. After watching Fisker destruct I am being more careful and Rivian's new offerings stand a much better chance of being good from the start.
love it, I have a 1978 SS2 and put 100 smackers to get ob the list for this as well........would love massage seats
I think this is a question I hope VW answers in its planning. Does the motor warm up the cold battery during winter, or does it heat the vehicle when remotely started? If the motor can be removed, what is its purpose? If it's a stand-alone generator, how does it offset the weight of the motor, like a mini crane? Can the motor serve other purposes, and is its cooling, exhaust, and fuel system self-contained or adaptable for different fuels? If the motor I’d like to know if it's possible to increase voltage output in a vehicle. I’d love to hear people's thoughts on this. If it is regularly removed, can the case have a protected shell so that in transport, it is not damaged?
A version with an ICE and a truly reasonable price would sell well. These days an expensive EV is a big gamble.
There’s a third row so that kids can pedal the generator.
Is there a difference between this and the new Ramcharger thats EV with gas generator?
Great video!
VW has a 2.0L TDI that would be amazing for this application, great low end torque and in fuel efficiency since will be kept running at optimal RPM.
For ev range extended version Chinese companies use 35-40kw batteries plus 150hp engine to recharge the battery while driving no more than 150km/h
I wonder if the extra power is intended to cover the needs of towing with the extended EV.
@@darwinskeeper421 also Chinese extended ev don’t have frunk, cause there is 1,5L classic engine inside. But harvester invented smth new and it’s interesting how they managed to displace it
Yeah if this thing expects to get 350 miles battery alone we are looking at a massive battery. Still wicked cool tho 😎
Good job reviewing progress on product. Reviving Scout historical name is Cool . Hybrid is interesting. Built in generator for range extension makes sense.
List Price is never attractive . We’ll see if VW quality justifies considering this product. Stylist did great work.
The Scout looks great in both configurations, but I really think the range extender will be a Dilithium Crystal Set up with Warp Power. LOL
Will it have a capable inverter in the bed? Honestly everyone should take note from fords pro power on board
I think you may have overlooked the needed horsepower for this thing. First, an EREV doesn't have a mechanical linkage to the wheels. The electric motor powers the wheels entirely. You only need a generator spinning at a constant RPM to generate electricity. No need for a transmission or anything. VW has previously mentioned that this vehicle will share zero parts with any VW... so you do not need to worry about repackaging some VW engine in this thing. And as the above implies, there is no use case for one of their engines being repurposed in this vehicle. No.... I believe they will likely create a small generator operating at an optimized speed for replenishing the batteries. This could be quite small... more akin to what you can find in modern generators.
As for the gas tank I think I remember seeing a slide where they remove the rear 1/3 of the battery and replace it with a tank.
The biggest concern I have with this arrangement is fire safety in the event of a crash. It is known that lithium batteries are highly flammable and fires are hard to put out. Combine that with fuel lines running alongside the battery from front to back and a tank somewhere nearby, and I just feel like that amplifies the risk even more. I would wait until we see some results from crash and or safety / testing. Accidents can happen, even if it was not your fault as the driver, and I would not want to risk my family's lives in the event of a crash.
4:08 Weird if it's a Chinese car they only need Battery for 60-100 mill+ 1.5/2 L turbo engine (50 liters of gasoline)
Running at optimal rpm will be exceptionally efficient. Charging batteries is low draw on the motor. The Edison guys have it figured out.
This is the way. 95% of my driving is short cange. But when I go camping or on roadtrips I don't want a pure EV. You could overland in one of these1. I've personally got my eyes on the RAM Charger because it's setup like this but can also tow a 5th wheel.
I’m guessing that you will be able to park the truck and let the gasoline engine run and charge the vehicle either while you’re sitting in it or going in someplace to run errands in order to minimize charging downtime. I think it’s also safe to say that this vehicle, optioned out with the range extender and all the other options that people are going to actually want is going to be double what they are claiming the introductory price to be. 50,000 will probably just get your foot in the door for the lowest trim package but auctioned out the way you actually wanted it will probably be at or above $100,000.
Good video my friend, u can also explore such cars as Voyah Free and Lixiang. They use similar technology by using engine only to recharge battery. They are the most advanced
In USA will that motor be required to go for emissions testing every 2 years?
What if they are designing a totally new engine just for the gas generator
what about opinion that they will use flat engine form Porsche brand like base 2.o boxer engine from boxter/cayman?? anybody think that is possible? at least it is epa certified?
I wonder if they have considered using the front motor as the generator. They would then need only add an engine to create the range extender. Ok, you wouldn't be able to use the range extender at the same time as 4wd, but most people on longer trips don't need 4wd.
These SCOUTs look awesome!!! Hey guys! Search for the BYD Shark pickup truck. That's an already-in-mass-production REEV with a total range of 500-600 miles. Even tho they are announcing these Scouts today, releasing them by 2027 may be a little late to the market.
Then Keep ur communist helping vehicles
I’m not sure the BYDs will be readily available in the US anytime soon- the Scouts are to be produced in South Carolina and primarily focused on US.
@@jdelgadocr but the BYD Shark is not available in the US! And is build in China… SCOUT is a US Brand… and would be produced in the USA!
The BYD Shark is in production since August 2024,..
A shame the government basically banned them. Charging 100% tariffs on any Chinese ev. Basically propping up the American ev market. Cause you know that always worked out well in the past.
Shark is Chinese garbage
Looks like a rebadged Rivian? Maybe they are using the same platform. Makes sense economically.
No, the platform was designed by Magna Steyr. And it superficially resembles a Rivian because both this and the Rivian take styling cues from the original Scout.
Rivian's Max Pack is 149kWh 3:31 You will not need 180 kWh or anything that large for 350m of range
As other have said, this motor will be much smaller. I am going to guess 40 HP or so. They should make it so the engine and genset can drop out for service. This is a hard application. On one hand, it will not start and stop a lot, nor should it see that many clock hours unless the owner is constantly taking road trips over 300 miles. On the other hand it will run hard when it runs and with sound insulation and it could get hot.
Twin turbo one 48v one exhaust. 900cc and 120 kW new gen battery. 120kw recharge at 350kw. Recharge 250 miles with 1 hour engine run every.
It should be a naturally aspirated 1.0 engine. That engine should easily pass emissions standards.
I suspect part of the reason RAM is using their V6 is primarily to entice buyers who wouldn't buy a truck "with a puny 4 cylinder", and because they already make a ton of that engine and so, manufacturing efficiency. Lightning towing consumption is about 1mi/kWh (maybe a little worse but not much), and you're probably not greatly exceeding 60mph towing, RAM will be similar unless their e-motor drivetrain efficiency is AWFUL. So, they could use about half the engine for the REX, maybe 70-80 kW for "margin", and been fine. As other comments have noted, a well managed 90+ kWh battery and REX system would handle a large towing load very effectively for 500+ miles with a decent sized fuel tank. And every other scenario is less taxing on efficiency (my Lightning was using about 60kWh/100km = 1mi/kWh at -40c / 70mph last winter, which is the other EV naysayer argument)
It's Harvesting season.
Since it's a turbo, increasing boost is simple and could probably double the hp if they wanted to
I owned an i3rex, and its problem was that once the battery was depleted, it would need the engine to propel the vehicle, so it was either draining the battery, or using the generator to drive the motors.
Why not start the engine as soon as you start your trip. The battery lasts way longer, and at the end of your 500 mile range you then need to both charge your battery and refuel your tank.
Probably due to the fact that batteries charge more efficiently at lower states of charge.
This was called "hold mode" and was an option in Europe that you could flash into your united states car. It was left out because of legal definitions defining plug in hybrid vs electric range extended vehicle. It also impacted subsidies and emissions credits
Because the goal is to only burn gas when needed, not every trip. What would be the point of an EV if you were always burning gas? I want the cost savings of doing most of my driving on electricity and charging at home, saving gas usage for just road trips.
@@TroySavary Few trips are as long as 500 miles. I rarely drive 500 miles without planning to drive 500 miles. While a manual control would be necessary for an off road EV with range extender, very few people would intentionally turn on the range extender for very short trips, especially if they were paying for gas when home charging is so much cheaper.
Better than the manual control would be to have the navigation computer in charge to minimize running a much smaller and lighter engine. A smaller lighter engine that ran earlier in the drive cycle - only on longer trips - would consume less gas than a larger engine capable of supplying all the motive power required. Requiring an engine that supplies all the power that the motors need at 75mph is a wasteful constraint on vehicle design. Lugging around this larger engine that rarely gets used will make it a much worse EV.
@@andrewfromphysics2921 , yea, hold mode was kinda stupid too, and requires a larger engine that I would prefer. Why have an engine large enough to maintain current SOC if you have a 500 mile range? The i3 Rex was designed in an era when the charge infrastructure was less ubiquitous. A 500 mile range extended EV does not need an engine large enough to sustain the SOC of the battery.
Should be the VW TDI hybrid then us die hard diesel fanatics could love it like i loved my scouts and my VW TDIs
Looks like a Rivian and Ford Bronco had a love child.
For the gas engine REV versions they should just get rid of the frunks and put the engines there for easy access for maintenance. This could open up more engine options, like the VW diesel - and allow for a placement of a spare tire for the Terra, which apparently doesn't have one currently.
I agree for more street oriented vehicles. They placed an emphasis on accommodating adventuring families like the bench seat option on all models and trims. That also means a lot of gear needs to be stored. Having both compartments available even with the generator being less accessible.
As the industry shifts more to EVs there will be more and more 3rd party shops that can work on them.
Agreed, just get rid of the Frunk put a 1.5 L gas engine and be done with it.
@@jun17kNo, part of the appeal to EV truck is the frunk. Glad people stuck in the past were not responsible for the design.
With a car this size and a small REX unit, you could have both in the front, just with a smaller, less deep frunk like even many BEVs offer
For the love of all that is good, I hope it’s NOT a VW engine. All of their engines have problems.
From a purely functional perspective a small diesel would make more sense. if it is a generator and not a prime mover, there are already CARB,EPA ready devices in use in the commercial truck and RV space. More KW of output per displacement and gallon. Diesel also is more forgiving of sparse use where gasoline is not. Obviously from a perception of "green" diesel is a tougher call in North America.
They could use a diesel and/or purchase an existing engine from someone else.
Keep the frunk, but I do think that 3 or 4 cylinder engine should have a turbo to get more power.
The VW 1L triple is a fair bit smaller than the reddish box at the rear
You could fit 2 transversely between the wheel arches of a large SUV ;-)
So those 3 round thingies in the illustration are not exhaust ports for a 1L VW triple, those are way closer together
VW also has a 1.2L and 1.4L TSI engines that would more easily pump out 100 kW - but the 1.0L is the more reliable
I don't think the engine will be connected to the wheels, it will just serve as a 50 amp 240 v output generator to recharge the battery automatically starting at 30% charge for example. It won't have enough power to propel this heavy vehicle in an efficient manner.
powered by rivian or ford bronco?
COMMUNITY NOTE: A few things about the information this person provides that is wrong. 1) it isn't the engine size, number of cylinders or fuel type used that creates electrical energy, it's the way in which generating power is coupled to that engine to recharge or charge the batteries while the vehicle is moving or stationary. 2) VW could put a few high amperage alternators in line and create a powerful regen system with as little 1.0 liter engine size or less. Size does not matter, what they are probably looking for is quiet, smooth and fuel efficient as one can get in today's world.
Great video though, just needed to inform those watching corrected facts.
The laws of thermodynamics still apply. I agree the discussion around the needed engine was a bit cumbersome, but the OP is not wrong: You can't use a 60hp engine to drive a generator that produces 100kW, for example (1hp = 746W). In fact, thanks to heat and friction losses, you won't even get close to the 44kW you might expect.
The Range Extender (ice) does not need to be powerful enough to supply full power to the EV motor or to charge the battery bank in any given amount of time. It is possible (IMO likely) that the ICE on this vehicle will be considerably smaller than that described - maybe something on order of 60-80 net HP (45-60kW).
Price ???😮
What if there were to come up with a flat three cylinder or a flat four. Like Porsche and Subaru.
funny thing...vw owns porsche. can't agree more...would love to see a porsche flat 6 in the trunk. ;-)
Im not sure a fuel tank in front of a battery pack at the front of the car is a great idea.
Chevy Volt is a PHEV because technically the engine does power the wheels directly at highway speeds
Why not be a naturally aspirated range extender? Gas turbo would be overcomplicated and a repair/maintenance headache. Love the overall design and range extender option. First EV i'd actually consider. Be much more comfortable with TDi range extender if has to have a turbo.
A turbo makes the engine more efficient and let's you use a smaller engine, that also increases efficiency. Isn't reliability of turbos good nowadays? And running as a generator gives much less wear because of constant load, constant rpm and no jerks from the wheels.
They should use a boxer 4 cylinder instead and if it needs work they can always lower the motor with ease to work on it
Has series hybrid ever worked outside of locomotives?
A lot of mining equipment, Chevy volt, a few BMWs.
@@matt45540 I’ m guessing the mining equipment is like the locomotive: uses the electric drive as a transmission for maximum tractability. Volt is gone and never really lived up to the hype. The i3 might have been an ok city car in Europe, but didn’t do well in other markets. The range extender didn’t seem to help much. There’s a reason the dominant hybrids are all parallel or plugin-parallel.
parallel hybrids dominate most due to cost. for a long time it's been way cheaper to have a tiny battery and electric motor that gets charge from a cheap ICE and then combine the two in a fancy transmission for power. Now that batteries and electric motors have come way down in cost series may be feasible. It definitely lowers the drivetrain complexity quite a bit.
Because locomotives have famously failed at hauling thousands upon thousands of metric tons of shit.
The current Rivian that gets 349 miles of range has a 149kwh battery. Not sure how you get 180kwh or more. The MPGE of the Hummer is bad compared to the Rivian.
Yeah Im putting my money on the VR6 engine as the range extender.
Heres why:
1) Efficiency not peak power
Rams pentastar 3.6 v6 is a 300ish hp engine. In the ramcharger its putting out 174hp. Thats cuz its tuned to run in its most efficient rev range all the time. Not at its peak where it is the least efficient. Customers looking to tow want the range extender to be fuel efficient at power levels required for highway towing. Turbos are not good at this. The VR6 engine used in the VW Atlas is perfect analogue to the Stellantis pentastar engine but better.
2) packaging and complexity
VR6 came in a golf yall... it is the same footprint as the 1.8L-2.5L engines, but it displaces up to 3.6L. It only has 1 cylinder head and 1 pair of camshafts. 1 intake and 1 exhaust. Its whole gimmick is that its a v6 with both banks squished together. It has 1 intake manifold and 1 exhaust manifold and 1 set of timing chains packaged just like any other 4 cylinder. That also means 1 catalytic converter and O2 sensor.
This engine omits intercooler, turbo, wastegate, fancy watercooled exhaust header, stronger pistons, stronger crankshaft, stronger bearings, oversized injectors and im sure a bunch of other expensive things to support running an engine with boost.
3) low engine load for required power demand
A vr6 with its displacement will be much less stressed to provide the 100-150kw constantly in varying temperatures. No boost means we can increase compression ratios and run fancy cam phasing and lobe profiles to do atkinson cycle, miller cycle or exhaust gas valve based EGR. Basically run in super efficient mode with low stress and cheaper parts, OR cheaper gas and get the output required by the customer.
A 1.0T trying to do its peak power constantly would have a horrible time and not last very long.
4) no EREV cars have turbos. And if you take that away from volkswagens line up the vr6 is the only engine left large enough for the job, small enough to fit, but cheap enough to help it hit its price goal
Check the byd shark. It’s the concept and already in production
Makes absolute sense for customres in the lesser populated areas of the US!
If im on a 1000 mile trip, and ive run out of charge and gas, and I go fill the tank (but don't charge), how far can I go before i need to fill up or charge again?
I’ve had this same question. Is this engine able to keep up with the electric discharge? Would I have to stop only to refuel and keep going? This would solve my only issue with the EV setups.
1 gallon of gasoline has 33.7kWh of energy. If they can get 50% thermal efficiency out of the engine then 1 gallon = 16 kWh of battery charge.
With the ram charger having a 92 kwh battery could be charged by its range extender with 5.75 gallons of gas if the engine was 50% thermally efficient. The Honda odyssey engine is about the same size and is also rated as being over 39% thermal efficiency. Chinese engines have crossed the 50g thermal efficiency bench mark too. Seems to be easier on range extenders.
And 130kw is about 174hp. Let's not forget that the biggest engine that ever went into a scout was the 5.7L v8 with 194hp. Should be fine to run with empty battery.
Hopefully, the engine won’t be large enough to run only on gas.
@andrewfromphysics2921
Man it's been like 20 years since I took any engineering classes...could u dumb it down and tell me how far I could go after filling up an EREV? I want to know if it road trips like an EV or an ICE. Thanks!!
short answer is we really don't know as we're guessing at a lot due to the total lack of specs so far. It's possible to do it in ways that it could be like driving an ICE or it could be done so it's like an EV. We just don't know how they did it yet
Mikes first viral video!
They look like Rivians.
I think the gas engine will fit behind the front trunk.
Looks and options of a bronco and rivian combined.
The 1L turbo engine is still way too big. It also has unnecessary accessories like alternator and compressor bolted on. EV don't need those. I think 4 cylinder motorcycle engines are better choices. With proper muffling they can be very quiet.
Needs an air suspension and taller center screen
VW/Porsche
Porsche boxer could wedge in the same area and produce 200+. Pending on version
They might be using some technology/engineering from the Audi Dakar etrex
Website says it's a generator. Just like a BYD just in another spot
Pretty cool. But I don’t want to deal with ICE maintenance anymore.
So don't order the one with a range extender, problem solved.
Yes, because ICE maintenance is so totally overbearing…….. F@g!
A diesel powerplant would be better, but this is a step in the right direction.
I hope it can compete with the Ramcharger.
That engine would have no chance to maintain or at least slow battery depletion enough when towing. Towing is one of the main reasons to buy a series hybrid so surely needs to be an engine that can keep the battery topped up - that 3 cylinder would have no chance…boxer maybe?
Technically..... The Chevy volt could couple the gas engine to the transmission at higher speeds. Yes I'm that guy
Wish you could get one with a 345 V8.
Nice body design. Screw the batteries.