Excellent advice Al. I do prefer the full bore lever valve. But it depends on amount of space one has to work with and application. Those screwdriver operated valves also have an arrow on them indicating direction of flow. You can almost guarantee problems if someone put it in the wrong way around if you try to turn it off
the screw head valves are easy - if the slot is in line with the pipe the valve is open - if it is at right angles to the pipe it is closed. easier than looking for an arrow in what is usually a limited space.
@@bertiebongo The arrow tells you which way to plumb it in in the first place when you are fitting it. Not which way to turn it off when you need to stop the flow of water
This guy is absolutely amazing old school Plumber and Heating Engineer. I wonder how many apprentices he has taught they would’ve been so lucky to have a teacher like him
I can absolutely confirm your advise. Last year I had a kitchen tap to replace. Turned off both hot and cold valves, and both leaked. Spent more time on THEM than the tap, one took 4 months to finally stop a capillary leak. So I still had to shut off the mains valve, and had to stop THAT leaking as well!
I had a similar job, had to change a tap in a factory canteen... it had a screwdriver-operated iso. valve... siezed SOLID ... and NO ONE knew where the water mains cut-off was... simple job turned into a nightmare... 🙄😖
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 Experience has taught me that "Simple" usually means "Straight Forward," and that Straight Forward" usually means 'Time Consuming. . . . . . ' Also that the worst job you could imagine ends up being not as bad as you expected! Why is it that the jobs you learn most from are frequently the WORST?
Thank you! These are HORRIBLE. To have plumber agree is so good to hear. These leak whenever you need to use it, calling a plumber back to replace it and cause more problems and cost than you needed. Do plumbers fit these knowing they'll be called back?? Seems it! If I get my pipes replaced, I'll buy the parts and tell plumper to fit them or tell them what I want fitted. Of course I'll pay more. There are better ones out there that in the big scheme of a plumber charge is little compared to these few quid crap.
How true, Isolation valves work great as long as you turn them off and on at least 4 times a year. I do industrial maintenance and I know from experience they will freeze. I have used pipe wrench to turn off a valve and have replaced many because you can't turn them off or not completely. Good Advice
Great little video. Now I realise it’s not just me that has a house full of these jammed valves that even if I can get a screwdriver on, it jumps out or the pipes move worryingly while I try and put enough force on to stop it jumping out. Now you have confirmed how rubbish they are. Shame they seem to be used everywhere just because they are cheap. Cheap but awful! Keep up the great work. Many thanks.
Good morning, nice informative video. I live in Kathu, Northern Cape, South Africa and we have a lot of lime in our water. This affects everything to do with plumbing, from the shower rose to the toilet. Those little isolation taps handle simply break off when you try and close them to work on the toilet as they are "frozen" by lime build up, whether you buy the cheap ones or the more expensive ones is immaterial, they all fail!
Good advice and explains a lot. Shame that the previous owners of our property hadn’t seen this before they installed loads of them, all over the place! Advice we’ll received. Thanks.
Full bore valves don’t all have handles. Full bore just means greater water flow and doesn’t affect pressure. The seals inside are the same irrespective of the type of valve, although I would agree that cheap iso valves do tend to fail before more expensive brands would which I attribute to the quality of the metal and the seals themselves.
Sound advice. A cheap slotted iso was fitted when I had an outside tap installed. Every winter had to turn it off to prevent freezing and the inevitable happened after a couple of uses, the screwdriver slot was beyond use and then it seized up and leaked. Since then I always buy and insist plumbers install Peggler full bore with either the longer handle or the shorter twist handle. Never have a problem with any of these -you get what you pay for.
Thats a bit of fresh air, a good honest warning. I had mine replaced recently, because it just wouldn't allow ANY water through the pipe to the outside Tap. Alls well now.
Nice one, fully agree about using the full bore . Got one on my inlet , the existing one fitted by the builders was jammed open so added one above it .
I'm not a Plumber (I'm Joe Public) and I've had this issue of non function with two isolation valves that's been installed years ago now. Now I know why they're not working. I learnt something today. Thanks. Liked and subscribed.
had to turn off and on hundreds of these when replacing water heaters and showers etc, fitted them in my own home and never had a problem. i refuse to turn gate valves off though because you can guarantee they will snap and not turn back on.
@@dereton33I once turned one - just slightly - to isolate the water so I could fit a new sink and worktop. The core shot out like a bullet (pressure was over 5 bar) hit me in the chest and for the next 15 minutes, had the apprentice holding a towel over it until we could find the main valve, which was on a lower floor, hidden amongst dozens of others. Never trusted them from that day to this. And the screwfix 10 in a pack ones ALWAYS leak, unless you use loads of ptfe tape. Cheap rubbish that should be avoided - just not worth the hassle, simply to save a few quid.
I bought an old Victorian house in 2014, every pipe and radiator had an isolation valve fitted. I kept an eye on them and I did turn them every 6 months. Never had an issue.
yep guess so. I also fired up the boiler in middle of summer just to blow any cobwebs out and keep it free. A good old 25kw Greenstar combi. @@dereton33
I used two 22mm full bore slotted type within the 3” stud work wall to isolate the hot and cold gravity feeds to the bathroom shower. The hot one seized within 6 months and the cold not long after. Replaced with the lever type and removed the levers so they would fit and just refit when needing to operate them.
I replaced some taps on a basin in a relatives house that had the cheap ones and these hadn't been turned in years. Both of them started leaking... I could replace the cold side as that was easy to isolate from the main stop cock, but the hot water side I couldn't find the stop tap and didn't want to drain the hot water tank... in the end as a last resort I heated the valve up with my plumbers torch (hoping but never thinking it would melt a new surface on the seal) and it only flippin worked! Something to try if you're desperate like me I guess.
Yes having a decent handle is much more user friendly but how often do they get turned off? Once in a blue moon? Fitted the basic ones 40 years ago and they still function when needed.
Worth noting, full bore lever valves are much easier to locate and use for many people, especially in a rental property, than asking a tenant to go find a suitable screwdriver in the even of a leak.
i changed my taps just the other day - my isolation valves are adjusted with a flat head screw driver - they have been on for many years and had no problems at all. If you run the hot tap and the water isn't as hot as you would like then just close the isolation valve a little and the flow of water will be slightly reduced and the water will be hotter because it is spending longer over the heat source. no need to get a plumber out for that.
All good advice, although the water companies didn't like it, I always used to fit a lever valve rather than a stopcock. They were much easier for an older person to operate, and stopcocks seize up after a few years anyway. Also, make sure you use copper olives and not brass ones with a couple of turns of ptfe tape or a smear of LSX around them.
Also the rubber can perish and be lost i changed presumably 70 year old stopcock as it wouldn't close off and found the rubber had gone. I like quarter turn. As part of good housekeeping people should turn the internal and external shut off to clean off deposits and prevent seizures. I quite like butterfly handle as they are less likely to be knocked , i used one on a farm trough for this reason and had it facing inward to protect against 🐑🐂
Very sound advice. When I’ve fitted them things (customer has usually bought them) I spray wd40 on the screw or under the handle to help longevity. It’s normally me that would be called back years later to fit a new sink or ball valve etc and need to isolate. Seems to work.
Great advice - full bore Peglars always. Also always full bore flexi pipes with no valve and ideally hand tightening nut for the tap connector. Costs 2x the cheap stuff but last a lifetime.. If you are paying a plumber £50 per hour then a £10 valve v a £4 one is irrelevant.
They can be ok if the flow rate and pressure is good. On central heating the bore through the valve can be very small. This will result in not enough flow rate to the radiators. Good advice given to fitt full bore valves.😊
We use big bore versions of these valves on boats. On private boats they tend not to be turned off and the day the boat is sinking, you find the valve has seized up and can't be shut. The other problem with 1/4 turn valves is that when you turn them off, water remains in the ball and can freeze up during the winter, splitting the valve apart. Gate valves may take longer to close but they are more secure.
Top video. Cheap ones always dribble. I see their purpose is to set flows on taps, not for isolation. One tip is grease the screw head to stop it corroding/ shearing off 😊
These valves can start leaking from the flat slot when turning with a screwdriver. You then have to drain remove and replace which is hassel and seems to happen more on a Friday. A lever valve is more reliable and they rarely leak from the spindle.
I find all isolation type taps, all types mentioned, can leak eventually, including stop cocks. I find that for toilets, where the plumbing tends to develop some issue in a few years, these ones are fine as you end up turning them for some reason relatively regularly. Best off only using these screw ones where likely to get turned when doing a job. For ones you may need to turn for other reasons, such as re-pressurising a boiler, then use tap handle ones.
Ha this is what prompted my question about the fill loop replacement. Seems mine had fused itself shut and the handle has snapped as it can't take the force to open it. I'm going to get a fill loop with an inline stop though as I'm no plumber and while these work they are a Godsend able to just avoid larger hassles. I think I will be taking it off when not in use though - keeping it dry should, I hope lessen the likelihood of re-fusing.
100% agree with that. The slotted screw type would be far better with a hex that a socket could be used on, but I think the slotted screw is a necessity due to how they are manufactured.
Perfect advice. If possible, stay away from these cheap valves!!! They always end up leaking from the rubber seal!!! They should be taken off the market!!
I fitted two of those screw slot isolation valves the first time I did some DIY plumbing, I never used them again, both seized up and couldn't be turned when I wanted to shut them off, one was on a shower feed. It was also brass so a very soft screwdriver slot that was easily mangled, I replaced them with the full ball valve lever type you showed, no issues as yet. The handles don't really bother me, they are under the worktop or a sink so not normally visible any way. I did consider the small lever type but figured if they did get tight there wasn't enough leverage or grip on them for me to operate easily.
If the pipe is fully inserted in the live side then it can be forced against the internal seal around the ball when the coupling is tightened thus making the valve difficult to operate. I would suggest fully inserting the pipe then bring it back a mil or two before tightening the coupling. That way the pipe end isn't being forced up against the internal seal and the valve will work without any problem. Also, for those out there who aren't plumbers - please make sure NOT to put PTFE tape on the coupling threads (that serves no purpose other than making it difficult to tighten the coupling. The tape goes over the olive and the thread is left clear allowing the coupling nut to run up and easily tighten.
@@JohnSullivansChannel Never seen a pipe move whilst tightening, there is a lip inside the fitting anyway to stop it going in to far. Also most people say PTFE tape is not needed on compression fittings, I've never used it and to be honest I think it would just be pushed up the curve as you tighten the joint and bunch up between the mating flats possibly making it more likely to leak
Yep, went to isolate the supply to a cistern at my Mums house and the seal peed water out. Thankfully sealed again in the open position. Will replace eventually.
Could I just add, that if you fit a "screw" type, please position it as to ensure the screw is easily accessible in what is usually a confined space. Trying to get a screwdriver to do its bit in a couple of inches clearance, is not good for the blood pressure.
Any type of isolation valve has rubber seals, including the full bore variety/lever handles. So the technology is pretty much the same. The difference is the full bore variety having a larger internal diameter, so are less likely to clog up/seize with scale and not function properly. Lever variety is of better quality, much easier to use. Isolation valves aren’t meant to be regularly turned on/off - they are meant for servicing an appliance like a basin tap, or a toilet which is how often on average? Once in ten years plus? They do the job usually, there are cheaper varieties that look identical and of course don’t perform as well. Most regular people don’t go round turning all their valves and what not in their homes to keep them smooth running, it is good practice of course. But the chances are any type of isolation valves with time will cause problems. I think it unfair to make out these slotted type isolation valves aren’t any good at all.
Not all isolation valves have rubber seals, there are a variety of materials used for seals depending on the intended usage o f the valve as there are a variety of metals used in the construction of the valve bodies. For example DZR fittings for potable water. Most problems occur because of inappropriate selection of materials.
Yes my thought entirely -that I still see instalations including those owned by local authorities without any isloation valves, making repairs difficult, and when it comes down to it an installation without these valves is a clear indication the installation is likely to have many other problems. As to screwdriver turn damage -a hollow ground screwdriver of the appropriate blade crosee section should be used, not anything from a scraper to a cuteraly knife. It is the same with other domestic property services -exactly how many people press the test button (5 x s test) on Residual Current Device on a monthly or quarterly basis? Probably none of you.
@@SteveWhite-d9f DZR fitting with all metal seals (mating surfaces) -especially multi-turn gate valves are just as prone to siezing, most often though not mentioned by detron33 in this video, is caused by hard water lime scale build up -preventing components returning to closed position, after sometime years in open position, that gate valves and even Stop Cocks leak from the gland (the part wwhere the handle /shaft is for you non plumbers) has nothing to do with construction or the metal they are made of, it is down to the gland seal (not metal) drying out, the only way a metal seal can be used is if the valve is designed to be fully open or closed -in effect forcing two metal -copper, brass, or bronze (DZR) into hard contact -and again this may also fail when the secondary position is facilitated, again down to a build of hard water scale. There is no mitigation against- due dilligence by house holders. And as to rubber seals -be they natural or synthetic -they are everywher in all plumbing today if they were as prone to failure as mr Detron33 contends -plumbers would by worked into an early grave, and householders and gov't would be in revolt.
Living in spain the use of isolation valves like these are common place fitted properly they pose no problem as long as there not the cheap chinese manufactured type
I’ve had these valves fitted in my bathroom for years I give them a spray with WD- 40 now and again and open and close them every now and then working fine just like anything you must maintain them
Are the expensive and genuine original Ballofix-branded screwdriver valves, with six-sided body marked "Ballofix" and listed as "Pegler Ballofix"any better/more durable/reliable? The "quid each" have been a real PITA, to the extent that even thinking about closing and opening them makes the wretched things leak.
@@dereton33 Thanks. I've got a number of the Pegler lever and butterfly valves, each of which I've carefully checked to see that it works properly (opens, closes, seals).
Went to change basin taps for my daughter, she had bought the taps a few days before,so I went thinking easy job won't take long,great I thought isolating valves,turned off 1st one started dripping from the turn off screw,second one would not turn at all,me and my big mouth,trip to screwfix 2 full bore and 2 new flexi pipes,they didn't look to clever either. Job done eventually.
I always give the screw head on the isolation valves a small squirt with WD40 just to ensure it’s loose and working, before I get the screw driver on it. That helps me.
I couldn't agree more about slotted isolation valves, especially the cheap tatty ones whose compression joints in my experience all too often won't seal without loads of ptfe tape being wrapped around the olive after compressing it on first. And those cheap ones with the little plastic handles can be too easily nudged back on while you're working on the pipework downstream of it so you and the surroundings get drenched. I prefer the ones made in Doncaster which have a handle which won't turn back on unless you really want it to.
You'll have to broaden your question. CH pipes on a system boiler or combi only ever suffer up to 3 bar of pressure...and that's only just before the PRV opens to release the pressure, so it's just a few seconds. CH pipes, whether copper or plastic, are what's used in general plumbing, anyway, and they can undergo 8 bar or more. A conventional CH system has pipes which only ever get a max of 0.5 bar. CH pipes are not really 'damaged' by anything, though an incorrectly-set water softener could fill the system with low pH water (which is slightly acidic), but not a concern. As long as you add a corrosion inhibitor you'll not have any issues. My advice would be to always seal the system, rather than having an F&E tank, and run it at 0.5 bar.
I want to replace a hot water isolating valve to my bathroom. I have a combi boiler , can I just turn the water mains off and turn the boiler off ? PS thanks for sharing all your knowledge 🍻
How often will the screwdriver valve need to be turned? Mine is on the rising pipe to upstairs and easy to get at. I turned it off this year and replaced all the washers upstairs on my taps and toilet cistern and don't expect to have to do it again for a few years.
If you are going to have an isolating valve it has to be the Pegler (In my youth it was Pegler & louden perhaps a different company) T bar full bore ball valve.
I agree with your dislike of isolator valves which have to be turned on/off with a screwdriver. In general when fitting taps when supplied by a combi I don't fit isolators as its easier just to turn off the main supply. You should also do a blog about gate valves on a non combi system. They will turn off but never turn back on so you are stuck with a top tank full of water!! I drain the tank instead./
This seems to be a problem with some valves. I had one that was similar, too stiff to operate, weak and oversized metal slot, that resulted in the largest flat driver I had invariably slipping. Replaced it with a better valve.
@@dereton33 It will not wash off the contact area between the seal and the ball - it is the stiction between these that causes these valves to fail - worked for me for 30 odd years.
Sage advice💜👍✌️😊 I suspect the ones I fitted seperately from the wretched flexi tails - although all decent quality - will be cream crackered some eight years later 😲💔🙄🤬 The lever type are much better. It's getting harder for the DIYer to buy quality products (or identify them) now though as it's a race to the bottom re competitiveness, vs quality vs VFM😕😕☹️🙄🙄💔🤬
Agreed. I use both the regular and T-handed Pegler ball valves and really like them. Whilst they are pricey, I think they are better than the alternatives.
After working in at a trade supplier for some time, many plumbers appeared to dislike the screwdriver isolator. Some commented that when you use one, there is a chance it is because water is peeing out, when water is peeing out, you don't want to be farting around trying to find a screwdriver or suitable tool to turn these things off (aside from other issues mentioned in video or comments)!
Another great video. I find the valves stick and as you apply more force, the plastic levers deform and turn but the valve doesn’t move. Full bore with a METAL lever is better, less pressure drop. But rather than the long metal levers which may not fit in the available space, consider those with the smaller METAL butterfly levers.
Thanks for all your content it is fab :) Dare i ask this, do you have an opinion on plastic plumbing? (push fit) Looking to put downstairs toilet and sink in and being a total beginner to plumbing, it looks like the easiest option. Cheers
The only advice with push fit is cut the pipe accurately at 90 degrees, maybe use a woodwork mitre box to achieve this. If the cut is not square you run the risk of tearing the O ring, or maybe even flippng it out of its seat which of course you cant see. Also chamfer the end with some sandpaper to enable easy assembly. Last tip, a finger of detergent lightly around the pipe will assist the assembly by lubricating the sealing ring.
Did mine years ago with plastic. Really easy, never had a leak in all that time. Just make sure that ends are square and clean, use stainless inserts not plastic and cut the pipe slightly long so that it is under a very little compression and never short to leave them in tension. Buy a good pair of pipe cutters too!
if you as old as me you will remember the first ones that would mash up when you tried to turn them off with the screw driver . we have been plumbing since the 50s . grandad..dad.. them me ..
Yeah I usually pay 4 times the price for a Pegler valve, it gives me peace of mind knowing it’s been made in the factory next door to the one that produces the 10 for £10 ones by an 8 year old instead of a 5 year old in darkest China somewhere.
Great video! Please would you do a video on the best toilet cistern fitting as I have bought Geberit dual flush valves so many times for the same Ideal Standard cistern. (It's like Triggers Broom....) I hate the European Union standard fittings. Don't get me started on the Ideal Standard Purity toilet 2003 which has now been discontinued so its like foraging in the wildnerness trying to locate a Purity toilet replacement seat (which breaks easily as it sits on a scooped pan terrible design) for under £200. I am hoping to replace it myself with a ideal Standard Low Level Waverley toilet with the lever handle and just have the old fashioned ball cock inside. Do they still make these? Are ball cock flushes less likely to leak water into the pan than the current dual flush valves? Never had this amount of failing with the ball cock 6L flush of the old toilet. Please would you do a video in the same way you have done this one. I would like to be able to fit the toilet myself as have had a couple of 'unreliable' plumbers. I like the way you present the pros and cons of plumbing parts in your videos. Thank you, Kate.
As soon as I get a job come up I will video it for you. I can tell you though, that the old china cisterns with a standard part 2 ball cock will out perform any push button plastic rubbish cistern. A standard syphon is much better than a duel flush one but you can not get them any more.
@@dereton33 Thank you so much for your speedy reply. Had enough of new fangled plumbing fittings. I want the old style back. You know..that worked! Last time this leak happened we had a £700 water bill. We are on a meter. Also we have a waste waterpump. EU laws on plumbing??!!...can you tell which way I voted yet...?😵💫😊
Excellent advice Al. I do prefer the full bore lever valve. But it depends on amount of space one has to work with and application. Those screwdriver operated valves also have an arrow on them indicating direction of flow. You can almost guarantee problems if someone put it in the wrong way around if you try to turn it off
Right on
These ball valve isolators are effectively an emergency failsafe. What happens when the failsafe is cheap junk?
the screw head valves are easy - if the slot is in line with the pipe the valve is open - if it is at right angles to the pipe it is closed. easier than looking for an arrow in what is usually a limited space.
@@bertiebongo The arrow tells you which way to plumb it in in the first place when you are fitting it. Not which way to turn it off when you need to stop the flow of water
This guy is absolutely amazing old school Plumber and Heating Engineer. I wonder how many apprentices he has taught they would’ve been so lucky to have a teacher like him
Thanks alan.
A plumber that does heating is not a heating engineer. Different trade, commercial and industrial not toy town stuff
I can absolutely confirm your advise. Last year I had a kitchen tap to replace. Turned off both hot and cold valves, and both leaked. Spent more time on THEM than the tap, one took 4 months to finally stop a capillary leak. So I still had to shut off the mains valve, and had to stop THAT leaking as well!
I had a similar job, had to change a tap in a factory canteen... it had a screwdriver-operated iso. valve... siezed SOLID ... and NO ONE knew where the water mains cut-off was... simple job turned into a nightmare... 🙄😖
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 Experience has taught me that "Simple" usually means "Straight Forward," and that Straight Forward" usually means 'Time Consuming. . . . . . '
Also that the worst job you could imagine ends up being not as bad as you expected!
Why is it that the jobs you learn most from are frequently the WORST?
Seems you all had a bad time. Dont you just hate plumbing ha ha.
@@dereton33 I'm not even a plumber ! I'm a fitter-turner by trade ...🤷🏻♂️😅
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 That's what your electric pipe freezing machine is for.
Thank you! These are HORRIBLE. To have plumber agree is so good to hear. These leak whenever you need to use it, calling a plumber back to replace it and cause more problems and cost than you needed. Do plumbers fit these knowing they'll be called back?? Seems it! If I get my pipes replaced, I'll buy the parts and tell plumper to fit them or tell them what I want fitted. Of course I'll pay more. There are better ones out there that in the big scheme of a plumber charge is little compared to these few quid crap.
Thanks for your story.
Good video Al . Solid experiential advice and well worth taking. Use Pegler full bore - expensive but worth the cost.
Thanks 👍
Pegler quality gear,Pay Cheap get Cheap.👍
How true, Isolation valves work great as long as you turn them off and on at least 4 times a year. I do industrial maintenance and I know from experience they will freeze. I have used pipe wrench to turn off a valve and have replaced many because you can't turn them off or not completely. Good Advice
Thanks Steve.
Great little video. Now I realise it’s not just me that has a house full of these jammed valves that even if I can get a screwdriver on, it jumps out or the pipes move worryingly while I try and put enough force on to stop it jumping out.
Now you have confirmed how rubbish they are. Shame they seem to be used everywhere just because they are cheap. Cheap but awful!
Keep up the great work. Many thanks.
Thanks Gary.
With experience , absolutely Solid advice Al!
Thanks, no probs.
Spot on mate I’m well retired plumber and that’s perfect advice . An old saying you get what you pay for buy cheap and it’ll leak .
About right there thanks bobbojones.
Thank you this is very useful and I appreciate it. Have a coffee or a 99 cone if it's still hot outside.
Thanks for the donation sunkat76.
@@dereton33 Most welcome.
Good morning, nice informative video. I live in Kathu, Northern Cape, South Africa and we have a lot of lime in our water. This affects everything to do with plumbing, from the shower rose to the toilet. Those little isolation taps handle simply break off when you try and close them to work on the toilet as they are "frozen" by lime build up, whether you buy the cheap ones or the more expensive ones is immaterial, they all fail!
Sorry to hear that. Best stick with full bore ball type.
Good advice and explains a lot. Shame that the previous owners of our property hadn’t seen this before they installed loads of them, all over the place! Advice we’ll received. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Full bore valves don’t all have handles. Full bore just means greater water flow and doesn’t affect pressure. The seals inside are the same irrespective of the type of valve, although I would agree that cheap iso valves do tend to fail before more expensive brands would which I attribute to the quality of the metal and the seals themselves.
Thanks Pete.
The seals are not the same
Sound advice. A cheap slotted iso was fitted when I had an outside tap installed. Every winter had to turn it off to prevent freezing and the inevitable happened after a couple of uses, the screwdriver slot was beyond use and then it seized up and leaked. Since then I always buy and insist plumbers install Peggler full bore with either the longer handle or the shorter twist handle. Never have a problem with any of these -you get what you pay for.
Great advice Steve.
Aha! Now I know why the fill loop valve leaked on my heating system. Easy enough to change but it puzzled me why it was weeping. Cheers!
No problem.
Thank you for that advice, the ones you use on a washing machine supply are better and not expensive.
Yes that is true they do always seem to work without leaks.,
I've got these cheap isolation valves all over my house and never had a problem with any of them. Some of them are twenty years old.
Have you turned any of them yet ?
I think not.
Thats a bit of fresh air, a good honest warning. I had mine replaced recently, because it just wouldn't allow ANY water through the pipe to the outside Tap. Alls well now.
Great.
Nice one, fully agree about using the full bore . Got one on my inlet , the existing one fitted by the builders was jammed open so added one above it .
Right on
I'm not a Plumber (I'm Joe Public) and I've had this issue of non function with two isolation valves that's been installed years ago now.
Now I know why they're not working.
I learnt something today.
Thanks. Liked and subscribed.
Thanks a lot.
had to turn off and on hundreds of these when replacing water heaters and showers etc, fitted them in my own home and never had a problem. i refuse to turn gate valves off though because you can guarantee they will snap and not turn back on.
I agree, gate valves are the worst!
I usually always replace them on jobs I do with full bore lever valves.
You have been lucky. Full bore levers are best. I have had hundreds of these isolation valves never working or leaking once turned.
@@dereton33I once turned one - just slightly - to isolate the water so I could fit a new sink and worktop. The core shot out like a bullet (pressure was over 5 bar) hit me in the chest and for the next 15 minutes, had the apprentice holding a towel over it until we could find the main valve, which was on a lower floor, hidden amongst dozens of others. Never trusted them from that day to this. And the screwfix 10 in a pack ones ALWAYS leak, unless you use loads of ptfe tape. Cheap rubbish that should be avoided - just not worth the hassle, simply to save a few quid.
Totally nonsense wasting people's time too old for modern thinking 😂
Comments of a kind and experienced man. Thank you!
great video sir and excellent advice, you are so right, those ten in a bag from a certain shopfix are awful, thanks for posting
Glad it was helpful!
I bought an old Victorian house in 2014, every pipe and radiator had an isolation valve fitted. I kept an eye on them and I did turn them every 6 months. Never had an issue.
Must have fitted good makes not the cheap as chips ones.
yep guess so.
I also fired up the boiler in middle of summer just to blow any cobwebs out and keep it free. A good old 25kw Greenstar combi. @@dereton33
I used two 22mm full bore slotted type within the 3” stud work wall to isolate the hot and cold gravity feeds to the bathroom shower. The hot one seized within 6 months and the cold not long after. Replaced with the lever type and removed the levers so they would fit and just refit when needing to operate them.
Great idea 💡
Totally agree. I always use full bore ball valves too, better quality and better flow of water
Isolation valves restrict the flow of water.
There shouldn't be much loss with a full bore at all
Listen, this guy knows his stuff.
Thanks John.
Thanks for that info. Can't beat years of experience. Take care.
Thanks, you too!
I replaced some taps on a basin in a relatives house that had the cheap ones and these hadn't been turned in years. Both of them started leaking... I could replace the cold side as that was easy to isolate from the main stop cock, but the hot water side I couldn't find the stop tap and didn't want to drain the hot water tank... in the end as a last resort I heated the valve up with my plumbers torch (hoping but never thinking it would melt a new surface on the seal) and it only flippin worked! Something to try if you're desperate like me I guess.
Thanks for a great tip Stuey.
He tells the truth. I've just had to replace my screwturn with lovely leavers.
A better job.
Yes having a decent handle is much more user friendly but how often do they get turned off? Once in a blue moon? Fitted the basic ones 40 years ago and they still function when needed.
You must have the decent quality ones like Peggler
What a nice steady chap. Yes the cheap ones are horrible and they leak when you turn the screw.
Yes it is a shame but that is about what happens.
Worth noting, full bore lever valves are much easier to locate and use for many people, especially in a rental property, than asking a tenant to go find a suitable screwdriver in the even of a leak.
Great advice.
i changed my taps just the other day - my isolation valves are adjusted with a flat head screw driver - they have been on for many years and had no problems at all. If you run the hot tap and the water isn't as hot as you would like then just close the isolation valve a little and the flow of water will be slightly reduced and the water will be hotter because it is spending longer over the heat source. no need to get a plumber out for that.
You must have had good quality ones fitted.
All good advice, although the water companies didn't like it, I always used to fit a lever valve rather than a stopcock.
They were much easier for an older person to operate, and stopcocks seize up after a few years anyway.
Also, make sure you use copper olives and not brass ones with a couple of turns of ptfe tape or a smear of LSX
around them.
Also the rubber can perish and be lost i changed presumably 70 year old stopcock as it wouldn't close off and found the rubber had gone. I like quarter turn. As part of good housekeeping people should turn the internal and external shut off to clean off deposits and prevent seizures. I quite like butterfly handle as they are less likely to be knocked , i used one on a farm trough for this reason and had it facing inward to protect against 🐑🐂
Thanks for sharing
Very sound advice. When I’ve fitted them things (customer has usually bought them) I spray wd40 on the screw or under the handle to help longevity. It’s normally me that would be called back years later to fit a new sink or ball valve etc and need to isolate. Seems to work.
Best just to stick with high quality ones like peggler. No problems then.
Great advice - full bore Peglars always. Also always full bore flexi pipes with no valve and ideally hand tightening nut for the tap connector. Costs 2x the cheap stuff but last a lifetime.. If you are paying a plumber £50 per hour then a £10 valve v a £4 one is irrelevant.
Right on
Thanks Al for another good tip for the Do It Yourself brigade. Hope all is well down there in sunny Dorset.
Excellent. Yes all good here. Keep well yourself mate.
They can be ok if the flow rate and pressure is good. On central heating the bore through the valve can be very small. This will result in not enough flow rate to the radiators. Good advice given to fitt full bore valves.😊
Thanks David.
Good advice Al. I used to fit the lever. Ballofix valves in the commercial/ hvac game. Around the commercial premises around London. 👍🏻
Cheers.
We use big bore versions of these valves on boats. On private boats they tend not to be turned off and the day the boat is sinking, you find the valve has seized up and can't be shut. The other problem with 1/4 turn valves is that when you turn them off, water remains in the ball and can freeze up during the winter, splitting the valve apart. Gate valves may take longer to close but they are more secure.
It seems they all have there drawbacks. Depends which one you want.,
I Prefer butterfly full bore valves where lever handles look 😢😢😢🎉🎉🎉 Al you've been around for decades 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤
Ha ha yes I guess so Paul.
Thanks Al, straightforward, simple advice but oh so true!
Thanks Colin.
Top video. Cheap ones always dribble. I see their purpose is to set flows on taps, not for isolation. One tip is grease the screw head to stop it corroding/ shearing off 😊
Thanks John.
These valves can start leaking from the flat slot when turning with a screwdriver. You then have to drain remove and replace which is hassel and seems to happen more on a Friday. A lever valve is more reliable and they rarely leak from the spindle.
Right on David.
A lesson I have already learned but thanks for letting others know.
Thanks jean.
I find all isolation type taps, all types mentioned, can leak eventually, including stop cocks. I find that for toilets, where the plumbing tends to develop some issue in a few years, these ones are fine as you end up turning them for some reason relatively regularly. Best off only using these screw ones where likely to get turned when doing a job. For ones you may need to turn for other reasons, such as re-pressurising a boiler, then use tap handle ones.
Thanks for the tips Nicholas.
Ha this is what prompted my question about the fill loop replacement. Seems mine had fused itself shut and the handle has snapped as it can't take the force to open it. I'm going to get a fill loop with an inline stop though as I'm no plumber and while these work they are a Godsend able to just avoid larger hassles. I think I will be taking it off when not in use though - keeping it dry should, I hope lessen the likelihood of re-fusing.
A good idea.
nice, simple, to the point . my old landlord put one on every radiator in an old property . they all leaked lol
Sounds about right.
100% agree with that. The slotted screw type would be far better with a hex that a socket could be used on, but I think the slotted screw is a necessity due to how they are manufactured.
Yes orrible little things.
Perfect advice. If possible, stay away from these cheap valves!!! They always end up leaking from the rubber seal!!! They should be taken off the market!!
Totally agree.
I fitted two of those screw slot isolation valves the first time I did some DIY plumbing, I never used them again, both seized up and couldn't be turned when I wanted to shut them off, one was on a shower feed. It was also brass so a very soft screwdriver slot that was easily mangled, I replaced them with the full ball valve lever type you showed, no issues as yet. The handles don't really bother me, they are under the worktop or a sink so not normally visible any way. I did consider the small lever type but figured if they did get tight there wasn't enough leverage or grip on them for me to operate easily.
You will be fine with those lever valves.
If the pipe is fully inserted in the live side then it can be forced against the internal seal around the ball when the coupling is tightened thus making the valve difficult to operate. I would suggest fully inserting the pipe then bring it back a mil or two before tightening the coupling. That way the pipe end isn't being forced up against the internal seal and the valve will work without any problem. Also, for those out there who aren't plumbers - please make sure NOT to put PTFE tape on the coupling threads (that serves no purpose other than making it difficult to tighten the coupling. The tape goes over the olive and the thread is left clear allowing the coupling nut to run up and easily tighten.
@@JohnSullivansChannel Never seen a pipe move whilst tightening, there is a lip inside the fitting anyway to stop it going in to far. Also most people say PTFE tape is not needed on compression fittings, I've never used it and to be honest I think it would just be pushed up the curve as you tighten the joint and bunch up between the mating flats possibly making it more likely to leak
Yep, went to isolate the supply to a cistern at my Mums house and the seal peed water out. Thankfully sealed again in the open position. Will replace eventually.
Sounds familiar.
Could I just add, that if you fit a "screw" type, please position it as to ensure the screw is easily accessible in what is usually a confined space. Trying to get a screwdriver to do its bit in a couple of inches clearance, is not good for the blood pressure.
You are sure right there.
Any type of isolation valve has rubber seals, including the full bore variety/lever handles. So the technology is pretty much the same. The difference is the full bore variety having a larger internal diameter, so are less likely to clog up/seize with scale and not function properly. Lever variety is of better quality, much easier to use.
Isolation valves aren’t meant to be regularly turned on/off - they are meant for servicing an appliance like a basin tap, or a toilet which is how often on average? Once in ten years plus? They do the job usually, there are cheaper varieties that look identical and of course don’t perform as well. Most regular people don’t go round turning all their valves and what not in their homes to keep them smooth running, it is good practice of course. But the chances are any type of isolation valves with time will cause problems. I think it unfair to make out these slotted type isolation valves aren’t any good at all.
I know they are not all bad stick with high quality ones like pegger and all is fine.
Not all isolation valves have rubber seals, there are a variety of materials used for seals depending on the intended usage o f the valve as there are a variety of metals used in the construction of the valve bodies. For example DZR fittings for potable water. Most problems occur because of inappropriate selection of materials.
Yes my thought entirely -that I still see instalations including those owned by local authorities without any isloation valves, making repairs difficult, and when it comes down to it an installation without these valves is a clear indication the installation is likely to have many other problems. As to screwdriver turn damage -a hollow ground screwdriver of the appropriate blade crosee section should be used, not anything from a scraper to a cuteraly knife. It is the same with other domestic property services -exactly how many people press the test button (5 x s test) on Residual Current Device on a monthly or quarterly basis? Probably none of you.
@@SteveWhite-d9f DZR fitting with all metal seals (mating surfaces) -especially multi-turn gate valves are just as prone to siezing, most often though not mentioned by detron33 in this video, is caused by hard water lime scale build up -preventing components returning to closed position, after sometime years in open position, that gate valves and even Stop Cocks leak from the gland (the part wwhere the handle /shaft is for you non plumbers) has nothing to do with construction or the metal they are made of, it is down to the gland seal (not metal) drying out, the only way a metal seal can be used is if the valve is designed to be fully open or closed -in effect forcing two metal -copper, brass, or bronze (DZR) into hard contact -and again this may also fail when the secondary position is facilitated, again down to a build of hard water scale. There is no mitigation against- due dilligence by house holders. And as to rubber seals -be they natural or synthetic -they are everywher in all plumbing today if they were as prone to failure as mr Detron33 contends -plumbers would by worked into an early grave, and householders and gov't would be in revolt.
Well take it from me in the business for 46 years they are absolutely rubbish,end off
Living in spain the use of isolation valves like these are common place fitted properly they pose no problem as long as there not the cheap chinese manufactured type
Thanks.
100% agree from my little experience with them..👍🍀
You and me both!
Wise words Darren those cheap as chips Isolation valves are nothing but trouble down the line
Sure ere.
I’ve had these valves fitted in my bathroom for years I give them a spray with WD- 40 now and again and open and close them every now and then working fine just like anything you must maintain them
Keeping them turned every now and then is the key.
Thank you and yes so true! Has happened to me before now but at the back of a washing machine. Thanks for the tips! great content.
You are so welcome!
great video. ive had this problem happen to me a few times
Sorry to hear that. They are a right devil.
When I see this happy little face you no your being told something interesting keep it up 👍 ❤
😊 thanks
Are the expensive and genuine original Ballofix-branded screwdriver valves, with six-sided body marked "Ballofix" and listed as "Pegler Ballofix"any better/more durable/reliable? The "quid each" have been a real PITA, to the extent that even thinking about closing and opening them makes the wretched things leak.
The pegler and more expensive brands are much better.
@@dereton33 Thanks. I've got a number of the Pegler lever and butterfly valves, each of which I've carefully checked to see that it works properly (opens, closes, seals).
Went to change basin taps for my daughter, she had bought the taps a few days before,so I went thinking easy job won't take long,great I thought isolating valves,turned off 1st one started dripping from the turn off screw,second one would not turn at all,me and my big mouth,trip to screwfix 2 full bore and 2 new flexi pipes,they didn't look to clever either. Job done eventually.
Same old story with those isolation valves.
Thanks for the sound advice. Age = experience
No problem.
I always give the screw head on the isolation valves a small squirt with WD40 just to ensure it’s loose and working, before I get the screw driver on it. That helps me.
It will still leak once turned.
I couldn't agree more about slotted isolation valves, especially the cheap tatty ones whose compression joints in my experience all too often won't seal without loads of ptfe tape being wrapped around the olive after compressing it on first. And those cheap ones with the little plastic handles can be too easily nudged back on while you're working on the pipework downstream of it so you and the surroundings get drenched. I prefer the ones made in Doncaster which have a handle which won't turn back on unless you really want it to.
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for the video :) keep posting your wisdom - all helps us
Always! No problem.
Al has more wisdom than the tooth fairy collection 😂😂
Thanks Al! Can you tell me if high water pressure on the supply pipe can damage central heating pipes? Thanks😊
Not that I know of
You'll have to broaden your question. CH pipes on a system boiler or combi only ever suffer up to 3 bar of pressure...and that's only just before the PRV opens to release the pressure, so it's just a few seconds. CH pipes, whether copper or plastic, are what's used in general plumbing, anyway, and they can undergo 8 bar or more. A conventional CH system has pipes which only ever get a max of 0.5 bar.
CH pipes are not really 'damaged' by anything, though an incorrectly-set water softener could fill the system with low pH water (which is slightly acidic), but not a concern. As long as you add a corrosion inhibitor you'll not have any issues. My advice would be to always seal the system, rather than having an F&E tank, and run it at 0.5 bar.
I want to replace a hot water isolating valve to my bathroom. I have a combi boiler , can I just turn the water mains off and turn the boiler off ? PS thanks for sharing all your knowledge 🍻
Yes, absolutely
@@dereton33 …..brilliant you’ve already saved me hundreds I haven’t got . Thanks again for your time 🍻👍
always fit full bore lever valves. i've seen so many of these crappy ones leak around the turn screw where the ''O''ring has failed.
Good advice.
How often will the screwdriver valve need to be turned?
Mine is on the rising pipe to upstairs and easy to get at. I turned it off this year and replaced all the washers upstairs on my taps and toilet cistern and don't expect to have to do it again for a few years.
at least twice a year.
Thank you. Short and to the point
You're welcome!
I agree with you, its better to fitt real valves. Used simular on ships systems in my day but always had levers or wheel heads.
Thanks for the info.
If you are going to have an isolating valve it has to be the Pegler (In my youth it was Pegler & louden perhaps a different company) T bar full bore ball valve.
Right on.
I agree with your dislike of isolator valves which have to be turned on/off with a screwdriver. In general when fitting taps when supplied by a combi I don't fit isolators as its easier just to turn off the main supply. You should also do a blog about gate valves on a non combi system. They will turn off but never turn back on so you are stuck with a top tank full of water!! I drain the tank instead./
I have done a video on gate valves. Cheers Richard.
Great timing, how would you open 1 that is stuck tight, I tried to turn it with a screwdriver but its doing more damage to the screw 😮
Try a screwdriver that exactly fits the slot.
@@dereton33 cheers for replying 👍
This seems to be a problem with some valves. I had one that was similar, too stiff to operate, weak and oversized metal slot, that resulted in the largest flat driver I had invariably slipping. Replaced it with a better valve.
@@SaxJockey think I'll have to do the same 👍
If the flow is low then narrow bore make quite a lot of difference if changed to a full bore
Yes mainly on low pressure systems, like on F and E systems and cold feeds to bathroom taps.
True.... Mine is the screw shut off and it leaked. Just changed it.
Well done.
Before you fit them brush some vaseline into the valve and rotate the ball a few times - makes all the difference and will prevent the valve sticking.
That vaseline will wash off with the passing of water, it will not prevent the cheap ones from failing.
@@dereton33 It will not wash off the contact area between the seal and the ball - it is the stiction between these that causes these valves to fail - worked for me for 30 odd years.
Do you still need to turn the decent pegler full bore with handle every year or so, or dont they need it because they are decent qualty ????
I would still turn them.
Good video and advice for DIY'ers. The ones with the screwdriver slot do leak when they have not been turned for a long time and then get turned.
Yes that is my experience.
I put wd40 in the Turing part and it stopped them leaking.
I did think about using silicone sparay might work well.
Thanks for sharing
Sage advice💜👍✌️😊 I suspect the ones I fitted seperately from the wretched flexi tails - although all decent quality - will be cream crackered some eight years later 😲💔🙄🤬 The lever type are much better. It's getting harder for the DIYer to buy quality products (or identify them) now though as it's a race to the bottom re competitiveness, vs quality vs VFM😕😕☹️🙄🙄💔🤬
Thanks for the info.
As an alternative to the lever if you want a valve where space is tight, I use Peglar T-handle valves.
Agreed. I use both the regular and T-handed Pegler ball valves and really like them. Whilst they are pricey, I think they are better than the alternatives.
Thanks for the info guys.
After working in at a trade supplier for some time, many plumbers appeared to dislike the screwdriver isolator. Some commented that when you use one, there is a chance it is because water is peeing out, when water is peeing out, you don't want to be farting around trying to find a screwdriver or suitable tool to turn these things off (aside from other issues mentioned in video or comments)!
Always were a terrible idea.
I keep a two pence piece by each one and got a reminder on my phone calendar to turn them every three months.
Great idea Gary.
Sage advice. Full bore all the way
Too true.
Another great video. I find the valves stick and as you apply more force, the plastic levers deform and turn but the valve doesn’t move. Full bore with a METAL lever is better, less pressure drop. But rather than the long metal levers which may not fit in the available space, consider those with the smaller METAL butterfly levers.
Thanks for the info!
Should defiantly use full bore on a gravity fed supply taps or cistern or you can end up with reduced pressure.
Right on.
Your bang on with that Derek
Thanks Lenny.
Thanks for all your content it is fab :) Dare i ask this, do you have an opinion on plastic plumbing? (push fit) Looking to put downstairs toilet and sink in and being a total beginner to plumbing, it looks like the easiest option. Cheers
It`s ok and definitely the way to go if you are having your first go at plumbing.
@@dereton33 appreciate the reply mate good to know. Keep up the good work
The only advice with push fit is cut the pipe accurately at 90 degrees, maybe use a woodwork mitre box to achieve this. If the cut is not square you run the risk of tearing the O ring, or maybe even flippng it out of its seat which of course you cant see. Also chamfer the end with some sandpaper to enable easy assembly. Last tip, a finger of detergent lightly around the pipe will assist the assembly by lubricating the sealing ring.
Did mine years ago with plastic. Really easy, never had a leak in all that time. Just make sure that ends are square and clean, use stainless inserts not plastic and cut the pipe slightly long so that it is under a very little compression and never short to leave them in tension. Buy a good pair of pipe cutters too!
@@roberthardy2013 Used a lot of plastic and the above advice is sound. Pushfit capends particularly useful to have in your bag.
I know of two of these valves in our house and have left well alone as the screw doesn’t turn and isolate. I’m dreading when I have to use them!
Always a worry.
if you as old as me you will remember the first ones that would mash up when you tried to turn them off with the screw driver . we have been plumbing since the 50s . grandad..dad.. them me ..
Just as old Anthony. Ha ha.
I use the PEX variety. Nothing to corrode and all sound good kit.
Right on!
Thank you - I shall follow your advice.
No problem.
Top advice but will anyone take notice when Peggler are five times the price?
You get what you pay for.
@@dereton33 I totally agree but unfortunately too many people buy 10 for £15 and someone else pays the price when it breaks
Yeah I usually pay 4 times the price for a Pegler valve, it gives me peace of mind knowing it’s been made in the factory next door to the one that produces the 10 for £10 ones by an 8 year old instead of a 5 year old in darkest China somewhere.
Peglar are the only isolation valves worth buying.
Great video! Please would you do a video on the best toilet cistern fitting as I have bought Geberit dual flush valves so many times for the same Ideal Standard cistern. (It's like Triggers Broom....) I hate the European Union standard fittings. Don't get me started on the Ideal Standard Purity toilet 2003 which has now been discontinued so its like foraging in the wildnerness trying to locate a Purity toilet replacement seat (which breaks easily as it sits on a scooped pan terrible design) for under £200. I am hoping to replace it myself with a ideal Standard Low Level Waverley toilet with the lever handle and just have the old fashioned ball cock inside. Do they still make these? Are ball cock flushes less likely to leak water into the pan than the current dual flush valves? Never had this amount of failing with the ball cock 6L flush of the old toilet. Please would you do a video in the same way you have done this one. I would like to be able to fit the toilet myself as have had a couple of 'unreliable' plumbers. I like the way you present the pros and cons of plumbing parts in your videos. Thank you, Kate.
As soon as I get a job come up I will video it for you. I can tell you though, that the old china cisterns with a standard part 2 ball cock will out perform any push button plastic rubbish cistern. A standard syphon is much better than a duel flush one but you can not get them any more.
@@dereton33 Thank you so much for your speedy reply. Had enough of new fangled plumbing fittings. I want the old style back. You know..that worked! Last time this leak happened we had a £700 water bill. We are on a meter. Also we have a waste waterpump. EU laws on plumbing??!!...can you tell which way I voted yet...?😵💫😊
Never had a problem with one.
Count your lucky stars.
All very true! From experience!
Thanks John.