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Cessationism | Ep. 62
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- Опубликовано: 30 янв 2023
- In this episode of the G3 Podcast, Josh Buice, Virgil Walker, and Scott Aniol are joined by Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You, to discuss cessationism.
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The problem isn't continuationism. The problem is pride and lack of order. Pride causes us to go our own way instead of submit ourselves to Christ
I recently left a SBC church where an elder who supposedly had reformed soteriology said when it comes to Bible study that commentaries are not enough we need a fresh word for God.
Oh dear! 😲
Thank you so much for the explanation about "intuition" vs "prophecy".
Thank youuuu!!!
I was born in Tulsa and am living here now. There are so few biblical churches here. More than any other city I've lived in, this city cultivates a head-spinning amalgamation of Word of Faith, NAR, and Progressivism. Mega churches are bred here, resulting in heretical mutant babies waddling to and fro. By God's grace, my parents were able (like Virgil) to avoid being consumed by these heresies, and they now are working diligently to battle them for God's glory. However, many of our family members are being consumed by them, and in human eyes, they seem too far gone. We know that there is no such thing as "too far gone" through the gospel, so we pray for them always and speak the Truth for them just as much.
While the entire planet is in constant and dire need of the Gospel, the "American Gospel" runs in Tulsa's waters and its people are plagued. Please continue to pray for the brothers and sisters here who are doing and preaching the will of God in the face of it!
... and see y'all at G3!!
Cessationists will become the Pharisees (the brood of vipers) when our Lord pours His Spirit out on all flesh. The cessationist will not be able to see or hear what is happening so they will attack it. The cessationist has never met the conditions to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The cessationist has no fear of the Lord and thereby, no wisdom. They are filled with pride. The cessationist places their mind and their word in front of the word of God and add to and take away from scripture with impunity. Deuteronomy 4:2, Isaiah 55:8-9, Malachi 3:6
Cessationism originated with John Calvin. Calvin plotted to murder Michael Servetus for 5 years and wrote about it in his journals bragging that if he ever came back to Geneva, we would not leave alive. Servetus was not a criminal and neither were the 58 people Calvin had tortured and murdered in only 5 years while in Geneva. I've read some of his journals. Calvin made regular inquiries into the innocent charged with heresy while they were being tortured. John Calvin used the writings of a Catholic (Augustine) to justify his blood thirsty ways while claiming to be a "Reformer" who is against the Catholic church. John Calvin was given the burial of a murderer upon his death and buried in an unmarked grave at an unknown location.
Cessationists consider John Calvin to have been a great man of God and the patriarch of their church. Now think about the cessationist mind. Think about the cessationist heart. Contrast this with what the Spirit of the Lord has given me to give to each each of you and read Romans 12. The cessationist WILL BE the persecutors of Holy Anointed Christians in the Days of Noah. That time has begun. Darkness surrounds the cessationist for many are the unwitting servants of Satan. Satan loves pride and he will feed the proud and place their words in front of the word of God. Know these things and remember them.
This video is very helpful and I'll listen again as I have a beloved neighbor who is heavily involved with tongues, prophesies, healings, and deliverance. You men can't teach too much on this topic, cessation.
Wow. It sounds like your beloved neighbor is living a blessed and full life. I'm not sure what you meant by them being heavily involved in these things, but I am thinking you believe the scriptures in I Corinthians 12 and 14 is not meant for you?
@@TBird5790I'll take any examples of the gifts from church history
church libraries are a VERY good place to check out to see what they are really about
I am a cessationist. There were some good points made in this video. I have not watched the "Cessationist" video referenced at the end here but i did watch a refutation of it by Gavin Ortlund, which was quite a thought-provoking challenge to that documentary. If Gavin's points are not answered, he will have convinced many to become or remain continuations.
Awesome stuff. So, so good and completely truthful and biblical.
Nah. Cessationism isn't biblical
Biblical Yet not a single verse was opened
@tpw7250 any examples of the gifts from church history ???
Thank you dear brothers for your efforts in this ministry. I am encouraged.
I'm glad you mentioned the Cesationist film at the end.
I already liked and favorite-d it right at the opening! Outstanding information as always, gentlemen!
(Smith Wigglesworth quote)
"When the power of God is in manifestation, a protest will always come from the hypocrites"
This was true for Jesus ,but Wigglelsworth was not Jesus. If the true gospel is preached the hypocrisy in the church will definitely manifest.
@@rudymancha5809 are you saying the power of God can only manifest through Jesus?
Smith Wigglesworth was not a man of God
@@krakoosh1what? Compared to who?
@@jeffbarrett411 compared to Gods word
Important discussion. Thank You.
I respect these men because they are God centered, not man centered. I pray they continue to persevere in the faith.
Sola Scriptura! God’s Word is Finished, Final, & Flawless! The Bible is Sufficient!
Yes it is. It also teaches us to eagerly desire spiritual gifts. That's why I do!
Everything Got says contains ALL truth because Got is perfect and accounts for ALL things for every tiny choice he makes. If we use OUR carnal intellect and resources to extract that meaning then we'll automatically only have a shadow of truth. However, if we are supernaturally provided personal certainty then we'll have THEE truth itself. Certainty can not be incorrect
Certainty can not be produced by reasoning and it can't be incorrect. It is fundamentally made of a different substance than opinion. Certainty is useful forever but opinions are useful temporarily, tentatively and provisionally
Word salad
Good stuff. Thank you, Virgil Walker for putting this together
i wish this video was several hours longer!
they are making a movie!
Do you know about Virgil's podcast with Darrell Harrison?
@@brianpayne8931 what's it called??
@@Carelmartyn just thinking podcast.
Cessationists will become the Pharisees (the brood of vipers) when our Lord pours His Spirit out on all flesh. The cessationist will not be able to see or hear what is happening so they will attack it. The cessationist has never met the conditions to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The cessationist has no fear of the Lord and thereby, no wisdom. They are filled with pride. The cessationist places their mind and their word in front of the word of God and add to and take away from scripture with impunity. Deuteronomy 4:2, Isaiah 55:8-9, Malachi 3:6
Cessationism originated with John Calvin. Calvin plotted to murder Michael Servetus for 5 years and wrote about it in his journals bragging that if he ever came back to Geneva, we would not leave alive. Servetus was not a criminal and neither were the 58 people Calvin had tortured and murdered in only 5 years while in Geneva. I've read some of his journals. Calvin made regular inquiries into the innocent charged with heresy while they were being tortured. John Calvin used the writings of a Catholic (Augustine) to justify his blood thirsty ways while claiming to be a "Reformer" who is against the Catholic church. John Calvin was given the burial of a murderer upon his death and buried in an unmarked grave at an unknown location.
Cessationists consider John Calvin to have been a great man of God and the patriarch of their church. Now think about the cessationist mind. Think about the cessationist heart. Contrast this with what the Spirit of the Lord has given me to give to each each of you and read Romans 12. The cessationist WILL BE the persecutors of Holy Anointed Christians in the Days of Noah. That time has begun. Darkness surrounds the cessationist for many are the unwitting servants of Satan. Satan loves pride and he will feed the proud and place their words in front of the word of God. Know these things and remember them.
Met Phil Johnson at Shepherds, he truly is thoughtful and kind, even to strangers.
Phil Johnson...should be a Pastor! God has truly blessed him with Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge.
He is a pastor.
@@judithmargret5972 Thank you, I didn't know that. Where does he pastor?
@@423co He's at Grace Life Pulpit. He co-pastors with Mike Riccardi, his sermons are online. He 8s one of my favourite preachers
This was a brilliant discussion! I learned a few things! Thank you gentlemen!
🙏🏽 Thank you, for this insightful session! Bible, Bible, Bible and Bible and Bible… zero Additions to Scripture!!
They literally didn’t open a single verse
Excellent discussion! Josh, see you in Lake Geneva in April. Jude3,4.
The miraculous gifts were not only given to apostles. In the earliest church, there were those who could work miracles who were under the local church teachers, along with those who laid hands on the sick and healed them...
"Now you are the body of Christ, and individual members of it. And God has placed these in the church:
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, next, miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, managing... (1 Cor. 12:27,28).
It's biblically incorrect to say that only apostles had a gift to heal or to perform miracles. Even Phillip - who was a deacon and evangelist - was healing many who were lame or with palsies in Samaria (Acts 8).
It's a little concerning that all four of these men got this wrong.
One of the best books I've found around gifts is Thomas R. Schreiner's Spiritual Gifts.
Cool thanks keep up the good work
Grace to you blessing and prayers
This was soooo good! Thank you brothers!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love Virgil’s story about his shoes at around 33:17. Through that story, what is revealed is that his doctrine is established by his experience. If you’re listening closely, you’ll hear that all of them follow that same path. It’s ironic that this is exactly what they would accuse the other side of doing.
Brethren, please note that this was not a Bible study at all. This was a discussion between men who struggle to believe that God still operates as He said He would through His Word. Paul gave us clear, apostolic teaching on this subject. And he said, “Pursue agape, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you would prophesy.” He reiterated that command at the end of the chapter saying, “…earnestly desire prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” Take out your Bible, read through 1 Corinthians 12-14, and ask the Lord to help you believe it.
Sounds like you don't understand their position... cessation is not anti miracle. You don't consider their arguments it seems
@@JesusIsLord77788 Nope, its you.
@@JesusIsLord77788none of them opened scripture to support their position. To make their point they tell stories rather than open scripture
I'll take any examples of the gifts from church history
@@bigtobacco1098You can read about many, many examples of healings, miracles, tongues, prophecy and even some being raised from the dead (see the writings of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and many others). But, that IS NOT necessary. That's the point. Is Scripture enough to guide you on this issue? I don't need examples or testimonies from other men to teach me in this. The Word of God speaks clearly about the presence of all of the Spirit's Good Gifts in the life of the Church. We are called to have faith and believe. "Earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you would prophesy." Are these men, my brothers, doing that?
my cousin and I are coming to Atlanta in September! we are SO excited!
So.... what do you do with 1Cor14:2? "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands (him); however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."
Great conversation!
Excellent conversation! Thank you. I belong to a Pentecostal/charismatic church and am beginning to question the the very things you’re discussing. There is a lot of “name it and claim” prayer, positive confession, tongues, prophecy, etc. I’m curious where the line should be drawn for a Christian to leave such a church?
You want to be in a church that teaches line by line. Topical sermons lead to apostate teaching. God's word is pure.
I was to for 30 years and a Pentecostal/charismatic church. James runs out of there as far as you can. Kate is right. these men are telling us the truth. I recommend to you to watch Justn Peter RUclips videos, so you can see and hear by your own eyes and ears. how unbiblical is all this practices in the church and from where it came. You will be in chock. and thankful at the same time to understand.
@@veronicacampbell3028 they are not telling the truth. And WOF teaching is false. But stay within the bounds of Scripture. They do not. As there is NO where in Scripture where any Spiritual Gift is done away with before the return of Jesus.
@@zerosparky9510 Wrong
@@veronicacampbell3028 Correct
I'm an 80 year older females from BC Canada. In 1963I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I speak privately in tongues daily, unemotionally. This edifies me I do not apologize for this.
Like Acts 2 or gibberish ??
Lord bless you
Genuine question: the letter of 1 Corinthians was written to those sanctified in Christ and called to be saints together with those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord… Then in Chapter 14:5, he wants everyone to speak in tongues and even more to prophesy.
How can you argue this is for the Apostles only or ceased once they died. I understand that this is misused everywhere but the teaching seems plan to me. Would love some scriptural help on this. Thanks
Example from church history ??
My favourite bit was when Phil started speaking in tongues, laughing uncontrollably and laid hands on everyone proclaiming blessings... the Holy Spirit is really strong in him
It means a lot to think more the sufficient fact of a better gift of what Is written as was said and is "I shall do a new thing" but also into from and to all in all creation but forth ad a newborn but manafested Christiann but forth is I would believe if was the next creation of mighty blessafitteddness
To anyone who will listen.
As a continuationist, it's heartbreaking what goes on in the Charismatic churches. Quite apart from those who think that godliness is a means to financial gain (1 Tim 6:5), and I think we all know who they are, there are major doctrinal errors really are harmful to the young and the weak of the flock. So that only the strong survive in that environment and totally opposite of being weak in ourselves so that we are strong in him.
One of the major issues/error of the Charismatic movement is that we all have the same gifts. And even worse, we ALL have ALL of the gifts. This is in direct opposition of the teaching of the apostles where the body is made up of individual parts with differents functions and different gifts; 'Do all speak in tongues?' 'Do all interpret? 'Do all have the gift of healing?'. And the gifts are placed above love, humility and serving. So that those who don't have the spiritual gifts are looked down upon. They are made to feel condemnation because they don't measure up against the so-called 'great' in the church. Cheers
All prophets today are 99.9 percent wrong...
All tongues today are gibberish...
Does that mean that people dont need demons to be cast out anymore? There is no one who is demonized anymore?
Great program. Curious… who would charismatics today say are their “best prophets”?
Don’t Stop! I want more!!! So good. I’m a pastor of an SBC church & one of my deacons is big on prophecy & tongues. He’s told me he has spoken in tongues & interpreted. He also believes he’s had visions & dreams to proclaim something prophetically. We’ve had long discussions! What do I do???
How about studying Scripture? See if God says anywhere we're he has changed ? So then did the. Church at Galatia see miracles? Ch 3 . Context. God. Did through them.
Manifesting the charismatic gifts isn't heresy. As a Charismatic I lean towards the Reformed faith but I am honest enough to admit that one is hard-pressed to find one Bible verse that supports cessationism
@@kevinevans8892 if you watch the entire video, the panelists all agree that there isn’t scripture that supports necessarily cessationism. I don’t think you watched the whole thing or you would not be making this comment. All they are saying is that one is hard-pressed to find truth in continuationism. One is hard-pressed to find somebody that truthfully speaks in tongues, truthfully uses miraculous healings, and prophesies 100% of the time truthfully.
@@mcmactor8176 I agree that what we see in Acts, the Gospels and even in Old Testament times isn't happening today no matter what the Benny Hinns and Michael Browns of the Charismatic camp claims. I was member of a small Pentecostal church where my late pastor prayed for a clinically dead woman who was miraculously resuscitated. Despite this abnormal incident, I can probably only think of three other miraculously events in his ministry that spanned nearly 4 decades. I am Charismatic but I think my camp is guilty of inflating the testimony figures. That said, I still think the arguments for cessationism are very weak. P.S, I watched the entire video
The one thing I’ve never heard anyone mention is, all prophecy and all revelation has to do with calling people to repentance. Prophesying today is man centered. It’s all about what God will bless me with, my dreams, my goals. They aren’t allowed to say anything negative. Hence, they can’t talk about sin and repentance
Man cannot heal, its the Lord who heals all thy diseases. How wonderful is our God !
My husband and I are praying to find a church that truly believes in Sola Scriptura, worshiping God as He reveals Himself to be in His Word. All we can do until we can find the church God wants us to go to (we do have membership at a "free evangelical" church and we attend every Sunday) is to keep studying God's Word ourselves/as a family, and to listen to teachers such as yourselves. How wonderful it would be to be part of a church family that won't accuse us of so many of the things you have mentioned. I cried through a lot of this podcast, but we are truly thankful for your faithful teaching.
What state do you live in?
@@DerekFoddrill523 thanks for asking. We’re actually in Australia.
Have you questioned what these men mean by Sola Scriptura ? It means, nearly any resource for interpretation BUT the author himself. Lexicons, historians, scientists, linguists, archeologists are yay but supernaturally receiving perfect certainty is nay. Certainty inherently can not be incorrect but opinions can NEVER be perfectly correct
It's your faith to be growed
I do love these brothers and their wisdom. For such a serious topic as this, it seems like the Cessationism they are espousing here is not really built on sound exposition of the Scriptures, but on theological argumentation and anecdotes of bad actors.
Does Continuationism *really* erode the sufficiency of Scripture, when the N.T. itself regulates the use of the so-called sign gifts in the church? How do they handle the documented existence of gifts in the post-apostolic church era of the 2nd and 3rd centuries (outside of Montanism)? How do they handle the vision of the N.T. painted by the O.T. in texts such as Joel 2 and Numbers 11?
What examples ??? Between the 3rd century and 1906???
To hear a Charismatic discuss tongues they elevate it to Salvation like levels.
Yes, as a believer in the spiritual gifts, I agree there are some sections of the Charismatic movement who believe this error. Cheers
I am from the Philippines, there’s a lot of pentecostal and charismatic churches here, the problem with these people now, they are pretending that they have the gift of interpretation that’s why it is okay for them to speak in gibberish every time in sunday worship or every time they have a fellowship. I know someone who is a pastor and he told me that he let his son (which is their worship song leader and “a former member of lgbt) speak in gibberish always because the pastor said that he can translate it.
Cessationism is not a Biblical doctrine. You will not find a single verse in the Bible that teaches any of the gifts ended with the Apostles. Paul taught the church to earnestly desire prophecy and tongues. They are for us.
Just because there are those who abuse and make a mockery of God and His gifts does not nullify them. We should be content that the Holy Spirit gives gifts to whom He wills when He wills. He has no restrictions to time periods or people.
These men have done so much for the Kingdom of God. In this area they are in error and unfortunately quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5). They need to be honest with the Word of God and repent for this doctrine. Cessationism is blatant disobedience to the Bible.
It is disheartening when I see godly men who have taught me so much so clearly mishandle Scripture on this issue.
Amen
Thank you for such clear, biblical explanation regarding this! So thankful to have had my blinded eyes opened to this false teaching and to be away from the charismatic church!🙌🏼
They literally didn’t open a single verse to support their positions rather personal stories
I remember hearing David Wilkerson even condemned the laughing revivals and drunk in the spirit stuff and he was very charasmatic
Good day from South Africa. Could you please tell me where I can watch the movie/documentary called Cessasionast? Thank you.
🔥👏🎬
Could someone please specify what is that body of gifts associated with apostles that ceàsed?
I opened up scripture and read a verse and my charismatic brother-in-law laughed at it. Not my interpretation but verbatim. I have such a righteous indignation against this heresy that it is hard to hold back my frustration.
@@danielstevenson3361
Romans 8:38-39
Dealing on the subject of sovereignty
I was once in several charismatic churches who all believed in these things like tongues, miraculous signs, and wonders, etc. Until eventually 2 lady prophetesses gave me words of knowledge from God that contradicted each other and this made me realize the whole movement is false and I immediately rebuked and left all of them. I still have many questions that puzzle me though and wish somebody can answer them all properly for ne one day with biblical proof.
I think you did not act the right why, you who receives a word auf knowledge or other believers needs to proof them according to 1. COR 14....
WOW "The answer to the charismatic error is the doctrine of divine providence" 🔥🎤⬇ talk about losing the forest for the trees! people are so wrapped up in the miracles and mysticism and emotionalism, that they forget that God is still working for them! they've forgotten God because they just want what they can get for themselves!
Cessationist here. Great info! I'm a bit confused by the comment at the 18:10 mark. What did he mean that it would contradict what he's saying about letting someone translate. I'm sure it's something easy that I'm just spacing out on, but thought I'd post my question in the hopes someone can clarify.
Give me one Bible verse that supports cessationism?
Could the assembly in Christ come to a middle ground? Is it possible that cessationists and continuationists come to a place of agreement?
Have you read “Miracles Today” by Craig S. Keener?
The point made about scripture never saying it was concluded is superb. All believe the cannon is closed without a scriptural reference to that effect. There are no more apostles. However I am open to prophecy concerning smaller scale political/social/natural events. The thing that boggles my mind is when Christians become offended over accuracy. Why would that ever be offensive? Only pharisees demand inerrant prophecy! Really? Whatever happed to the honorable Bereans? Paul didn't chide against their second guessing him with a scriptural check. He applauded it.
I've made similar points in regard to the falsifiable miracles. Raising the dead, recovering sight to the blind, being immunized against poison, restoring mobility to the lame, and unstopping the ears of the deaf should be all fair game. Those are the things they always have stories about, yet exclusively demonstrate the healing of aches and pains. Here is my challenge to anyone who thinks my words are just mockery. Jesus calls us to the great commission. Are any offended if a Christian exhorts the body to do it? The answer is no. Jesus calls us to forgive. Are any offended if a Christian exhorts the body to do it? The answer is no. Jesus calls us to turn away from dead works. If a Christian exhorts the body to do it ( without linking it to salvation), are any offended? The answer is no. So why are gifts the ONE EXCEPTION? Why can't I say, heal a brother or sister in Christ that resides in a wheel chair? Command him or her to walk in Christ. Why am I the bad guy for asking Charismatics to do the very thing they BEG US to believe is possible. Fine, do it. Say that and then you're a demon in disguise. If someone came up to me and said, "Can you please give me the gospel" I would do it. What's the difference?
I will admit to a change in my theology about tongues, there must be an unintelligible version. Pentecost was clearly about human languages. However 1 Corinthians 14:2 knocks out all the workarounds. If you don't allow for some sort of divine language, you won't be able to make heads or tails out of that verse.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT UNTO MEN but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
There is no human language that no man understands.
QUESTION: Please help.
My husband is still in the Oneness Pentecostal Movement and believes Apostles still exist within the Apostolic church today because of the 5-fold ministry found in the Bible.
How can I refute or are there some curious questions you would suggest regarding this?
I've been out for 18 years and been difficult for us. Are there any books your would recommend regarding this?
Thank you so much.
Hi @GigiRocks1969 - I know you it’s been two months since you asked but I highly recommend the book “Counterfeit Kingdom” by Holly Pivec and Douglas Geivett. It addresses the New Apostolic Reformation (which sounds near identical to what your husband is involved in). It will definitely arm you with knowledge. I will be praying for His strength, wisdom and discernment for you and that the eyes of your husband will be opened to Truth and his heart will be softened to receive it. Our God is ever faithful.
There are also no instructions on the Lord’s Supper beyond 1 Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 14:2 come on guys ! Let the Holy Spirit have His way in your life ….
8:20 Where do you find the term "gift of healing" in the Bible? Does it not say "giftS of healingS"? In other words, right, there's not a special person chosen by God to be "anointed" to heal, but gifts of healing BY the Holy Spirit THROUGH someone for people in the church. "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."
Is the Bible merely a history book or is it more of a Christian living manual? Why do we even need the teaching in 1 Cor12? 🤔
Or do you teach, say, verse 21 "And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”" But NOT, say, verse 28? "And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues."
1 Cor 12:7-12 couldn’t be clearer so they would have to totally ignore this.
What would be a better alternative to Grudems Hand Book of Theology. ?
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY: HISTORICAL, BIBLICAL AND SYSTEMATIC by Adam Harwood
Louis Berkhof Systematic Theology
Reformed Systematic Theology by Beeke / Smalley
@Marvin Schneider agreed, Berkhof is better and also more affordable, though I do like Grudem.
Thank you everyone for your recommendations, I’ve been wondering about an alternative to Grudem’s book as well!
I have a question please. Cessationists believe that after the canon was closed, I agree the canon is closed, God does not give more revelations, does not speak.
If God gives no more revelations, then how did Cessationists know that God has given the doctrine of Cessation?
Also, there is no foundation in Scripture to support the doctrine.
The pillar verse Cessationists use is 1 Corinthians 13:10 in which Paul says that when the perfect has come the gifts will pass away. They give the private interpretation that the perfect came when the Bible was completed and canonized. However, verse 12 gives the time that the perfect comes. It is when we see face to face and know as we are known. These two phrases are 2nd coming words because it is Jesus that we long to see face to face and it is when we receive our glorified bodies that our knowledge is greatly increased so that we know as God knows us.
So, the doctrine has been added to God's doctrines, God's Word, by the Cessationists.
Also, even more so Cessation doctrine takes away the supernatural gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.
How can they get by Moses' command, the writer to Proverbs command, and Apostle John's command, inspired by God, not to add or take away from God's Word lest one loses their salvation?
Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Some people argue that the verses in Revelation only apply to Revelation. However, when one realizes that the Holy Spirit placed the same command in 3 other places (also Deut. 12:32) this put more weight upon it to be God's universal will.
This phrase, in 1 Corinthians 13.8-13, "when the perfect comes," is not referring the canon of scripture, or Jesus, its speaking of "the perfect state," eternity future, or Heaven. So when we are in heaven we will no longer need prophecy, "various kinds" of tongue's, words of knowledge or even faith or hope.
But we do need the demonstration and power of all of the ministry, communication, and miraculous gifts for the remainder of this age and also for/in the next age.
If you resist and/or reject these, you simply will not have them.
I'll take any examples of the gifts from church history
Is there any explicit Bible verse that says spiritual gifts have ceased today?
shhhhhh, now why do you have to ask that question LOL, there is only one
1Cor 13:8But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
This only works if you ignore the fact that knowledge is also going to pass away and I don't think it has LOL and then read further and you realize it's talking about when the perfect has come - it's Christ's return. One thing all the cessationists have in common is they don't use any scripture, their logic consists of "this is weird" well speaking of weird, how weird is it that this guy Jesus led a weird cult gets crucified and then rises from the dead? now that's weird LOL
It maybe true in North America (Cessationism). Not so here in Africa.. God is moving powerfully here 🙏💪
Amen
So you have seen dead resurrected, instant miraculous healings, casting out demons, walking on water, and more? I don’t believe that has happened since Apostles have died.
@@invisibleman53 Not frequently, but I've seen a couple - heard about many more from reliable people I know. When I was young, one early morning our youngest sister just suddenly stopped breathing.. We all started calling her with no response and that's when my mum (late now), started praying fervently (in tongues) and though I was young I kept frantically pleading with her to stop wasting time and instead to rush her to the hospital. Well, she continued praying for some time and after a while she stopped and called out my sister's name. She answered and came back. Well that was not even the weird thing... my small sister later said she was walking in a dark valley with bones all around and at some point she could faintly hear prayer from a distance and then suddenly a bright rope then appeared in front of her and a voice asked her to hold on to it. When she did hold the rope, she opened her eyes and there we all were and my mum was calling her name. It was quite an experience to the whole family since we were all there and witnessed it. She was later taken to the hospital for good measure, but nothing was found, she was fine.. Glory to God!🙏💪
There are many wonderfully Knowledgeable teachers/leaders in the G3 ‘stable’ but in my mind Phil Johnson raises the averages of knowledge, credibility, even-spokeness, thoughtful, depth, etc… thank you for all that you ALL do!
Let's just be real. Cessationism doesn't bring in the crowds or the money. That is what is all boils down to. Follow the money!
I've debated this issue and compared it with the word of God for years. I used to be a jumbled charismatic, word of faith, and Armenian mess. I lean more towards having a cessasionist view that the gifts of tongues, healing, raising people from the dead have ceased. I'll just put it this way. If all those gifts are still being given by God, why aren't these many faith healers emptying the children's hospitals, cancer wards, VA hospitals around the world. Wouldn't cancer be greatly diminished. For those people who disagree, who do you personally know who have healed any physical disease by the laying on of hands or by "rebuking" a terminal illness. I do believe those gifts have stopped. Healing has not stopped. Nor has miracles cuz I have witnessed healings through prayer. Many people claim these gifts are still given to man but I have not heard of verified miraculous healing that someone has done in the name of Jesus by laying their hands on that person. Not one. However, there is a whole lot of deception, trickery, magic, witchcraft done in the name of Jesus. If God is still giving these gifts to man, shame on them for not healing the multitude. If you do know one, please let me know so they can come and heal my wife. She is in the final stage of Alzheimers at the age of 59. I would spread the word extremely loud and fast that these gifts have not stopped.
I don't understand the true meaning of cessation,biblically 🤔🤔
Soo if you have the gift of healing then why arent they healing evreyone ...I think God uses prayer and not one specific man to litt GO AND HEAL ...😢
so how do most word of faithers claim apostleship then?
I think the problem is there is no verse in the Bible that's says when the Apostles died, the gifts ceased. If there was, I'd be more than happy to submit to. The problem is Junta Edwards is an amazing man of God, good Bible teacher, but he's not inspired, nor inerrant The only verse that's comes close to 1 Cor. 13 : 9 - 10 tells us when the perfect/completeness comes. but even the word of God is perfect, I don't think it's speaking in context is referring to the written Word of God. Such an argument is an example of Biblical Eisegesis, and not exegesis.
The problem is dispensationalism …what a mess that it:(
JONATHAN EDWARDS IS NOT SCRIPTURES. WHAT DO YOU ABOUT THE GIFTS MENTIONED IN EPHESIANS CHAPTER 4.
Im so concerned for the western church bc the satanic church has a greater understanding of the spiritual realm. Who is going to stand against warlocks and witches??? 😒🤦🏽♀️
Who is going to win souls for Jesus? This is not what Jesus taught or died for!
And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
Mark 16:17-18 Asv
These men are saying these things bc these things haven’t happened for THEM! But they happen daily! I attend a church where prophecies come true, people are healed, we speak, pray and worship in tongues just like Paul taught. And I pray these things become the norm and not the exception. Seek what Jesus taught not what is rational. ❤
Amen!
I'm honestly curious... is the term "Christian" synonymous with "disciple of Jesus"? Do you consider being a disciple of Jesus something that is for today?
Feeling convicted?
@@rinihogewoning6528 Me? 😅 I'm asking them their view. I think the Bible is pretty clear. Jesus said 'make disciples' not 'Christians' or 'converts'. Is not a disciple one who trains to do the same things as his master?
Thank you for this conversation much needed.
Will there be an response to the revelation brought to light regarding John MacArthur’s cover up of the Eileen Gray situation?
That seems like a major controversy and moral failure in the life of a Cessationist.
I challenge all Cessationists to please give us even one scripture that says-The GIFTS and POWER of the Holy Spirit will cease. And you cannot use 1Corinthians 13:8 because you will be out of context. The context of 1 Corinthians 13 is still referring to the future, read the last verse, its still our dispensation-
1 Corinthians 13:8 (NASB20) Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with.
1 Corinthians 13:13 (NASB20) But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Did you even watch the whole video?
The gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. When the church was first born. In the book of Acts. Those brothers sisters. Were sold out for Jesus. Give everything they had. Those were truly the days of the unleavened bread. No bad teachings & and unbelief. They love not their lives Unto death. Unlike American Christianity. Acts 2:39. The baptism of the holy Spirit and all that comes with it. Were promised to everyone. Through all ages. But because of unbelief and bad teachings. That has crept in over the years. The purity of gospel has been diluted. When persecuted times come on the church. And it will. It's going to separate the wheat from the chaff and purify the bride. Make her ready for Jesus. Remember he's coming back for a church without spot or blemish. Not for this Laodicean Church. Praise his everlasting Name.
You should really have an educated continuationist to discuss these things with you.
Dr. MichalelBrown for one, or if one wants a Reformed continuationist Dr. Sam Storms. But if you're having a whole conference on cessationism there's not much chance that other voices are welcome.
Since you are bold enough to leave the comments section open, I will make a VERY BOLD comment!
I am AMAZED at how our Christian leaders on the WEB can give entire sermons or presentations about Biblical issues without EVER letting US know that you asked Our ABBA Father for knowledge, wisdom and UNDERSTANDING > 🤪
How can you expect us (me) to trust what you say as you debate eachother over spiritual topics and keep coming up with conflicting conclusions? Do you ACTUALLY pray continually relying on the Holy Spirits leading you as you search the Scriptures? Let us know if you do.
SERIOUSLY! And why are we NEVER seeing an ACTUAL heart to heart relationship going on between you and the Holy Spirit as you speak with such confidence about a topic yet in conflict with EACHOTHER over that SAME topic? Christianity is not a religion! It's a RELATIONSHIP and yet our leaders always seem so all ALL ALONE as they speak to US! The SIGNS and WONDERS that should be EVIDENT is that you make it OBVIOUS to US that you are NOT alone! That you REALLY are heart to heart UNITED with the LORD in the same way an appliance needs electricity! ARE YOU ACTUALLY PLUGGED IN > 💥
Yes - we can see your reliance on the Scriptures and your boasting in them comes through, but where are "THE SIGNS" of your AWESTRUCK dependence on the FACT that God Almighty is right there in you with you and WITH US TOO > 😇
HIS NAME IS JEALOUS < That should clue you in on the importance of giving Him YOUR undivided attention! Please stay plugged into Our LORD who is our LIFE as you speak to US! Acknowledge His presence from time to time or are you afraid of sounding TOO charismatic > 🤪
Sorry LORD if I got carried AWAY with holding then ACCOUNTABLE to DEMONSTRATE their belief in your being present, available and JEALOUS when ignored > 🤪
How dare they leave YOU out of the picture > 🤪 < I love that silly face and I forgive them Father because they were more than likely just waiting for someone to point out THE OBVIOUS to them! I'm sure glad that they know enough not to let their PRIDE get them upset over my BOLD REBUKE > 🤪 < Have you taught them the importance of having a GOOD sense of humor?
Interesting, you are the only person I have came across that sounds Remotely like one who’s been filled with the Spirit. As you know the fruits of the Holy Spirit is patience and self-control. Brother, continue to asks for these fruits and do not Hesitate to eat of them freely for we know the vine is rich and nourishing. It’s name is the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth who is Lord over all! So continue to hammer out those edges and to Sharpen both sides, cause I tell you you will be used by the Hand of the Great “I AM I WILL BE” to show His wonders. I prayed for brother peace be on you and God bless you Jesus’s name.
Healing today I would consider healing from sin which is the conviction by Holy Spirit through the conscious. Understanding sin and working it through the soul to reach the conscious! Other healing is the indwelled spirit heals pain and anger which leads to many psychological problems and done through understanding and forgiveness . Holy Spirit works through prayers for others and intercession prayers. Self centered prayers are not though love. Works through the mutual love between the father and son is the truth of the spirit. We see some miracles but I think the charismatic movement in early 1900 was more psychological and fanatical which moved a lot of reformed pastors and theologians to cessationist. To say the spirit is active in church today is a reach . We have not seen true revivals in over 150 years . The church needs to recognize the true spirit more today in the reformed church and teach the operations of the spirit more and more. John Owens did alot of work on the spirit . Speaking in tongues in my opinion is incorrect and it needs to be in a language and this is clear in scripture . Many times pastors do not have certain strength in operations in the spirit and act like it in word of faith movement and they are so false. Lord help the reform church today!
As a cessationist, I must say there were some real bad arguments against continuationism.
True. Very weak. Affirming the continuation of the sign gifts isn't necessarily affirming WOF and NAR doctrine. Cessationists seem to think it does
As a continuist, I agree.
By contrast then, what are some good arguments that you have found?
@@spn2240I recommend you watch Gavin Ortlund’s response to the Cessationism documentary.
WHY DOES CESDATIONISM DENY THE ATONEMENT TO COVER FOOD & HEALTH?
Miracles in religious practice is what you oppose, What I don't hear from the cessationist is away to restore someone in the faith that has ministered false gifts by the power of demonic hosts. Do we just assume that they are all lost and can't be restored?
Cessationist and Continuationist get a lesson in deliverance on before its news
Tongues. How about Acts 10? And later.
What is wrong with Paul Washer??
I'm not willing to put any limitations on the work of the Holy Spirit in situations where divine purpose takes place.
What is happening outside of those situations is men acting out of perversions of those gifts and living in a state of emotional feelings who persuade others to live on emotional feelings. They use false portrayals of spiritual gifts to attract people to a false gospel.
I got $10,000 for any charismatic that can raise Kathy kuhlman from the dead 😅😂😮
These men call the move of Spirit "Strange Fire." It's strange to them because they haven't experienced it. It's easy to critique what you've never experienced. I'd rather have what they supposedly call "Strange Fire" than no fire at all. I personally believe that people are more interested in finding out what God "IS DOING," as opposed to what He supposedly is "NOT DOING" anymore.
THE NATURAL PERSON DOES NOT ACCEPT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD,
FOR THEY ARE FOLLY TO HIM,
my (Pauls) speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom,
although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age,
who are doomed to pass away.
But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God,
which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
None of the rulers of this age (is this you?) understood this, for if they had,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit.
For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person,
which is in him?
So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,
that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit,
interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him,
and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
You seem to imagine that God somehow changed after the Canon of Scripture was closed.
(Scriptural reference please)
He has not.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings,
See to it that no one takes you captive by by Calvinist Philosophy and empty deceit,
according to human tradition,
according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings.
This is more about lashing out at your distaste for and exaggerations of
the extremes of Pentecostalism.
You believe in effective prayer ? If someone acts in faith then that is a form of prayer except they would be acting as if they believe. If a person tries to produce a miracle through their own abilities then THEY are responsible for it and since people can't do miracles nothing will happen. What good is faith without subsequent miracles?
In what way are the scriptures perfectly sufficient? Do you need to know how to read ? Do you need lexicons, concordances, translations, historians, archeologists, seminaries ? Certainty of scripture is the true perfect sufficiency. Certainties can't be gained through studying or reasoning. Some are innate but the rest are supernaturally received individually
Effective prayer? You mean God's will be done?
@@rinihogewoning6528
Even during the time of Elijah while everyone was without food or water, Elijah was sent to only one. She had proper faith. If a person prays but their faith is mixed with "doubt" then they will receive nothing. It is also recorded that if a person has proper faith then they could ask for anything and it will be given. I admit there are rules, but from the beginning it was the creator's intention to give all to us or all that could be given.
You are welcome to say, "IF it be thy will" whenever you pray, but if you stand up the same as before you kneeled then how exactly do you have proper faith?
@@MikaChen-gl5gt Jesus is not our example, he is our Lord. We are not mormons that see Jesus as our example. Abiding in him is our act of worship and gives God glory. We don't abide in him to receive, we abide in him because he is worthy and he commands our worship. Prayer is also an act of worship unfortunately we have turned God into a vending machine. It's interesting that Jesus commanded repentance but that never seems to be emphasized by the continuationist crowd, only the goodies from God (i.e. tongues, working miracles, "words" from God,, etc.).
@@rinihogewoning6528
Our lord said we can do nothing without him. Everything exists by Got's continual power and
Only a cessationist will hide the origins of cessationism.
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Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit
Mth12:30-37 (LSV)
• 30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and
• he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31
• “Therefore I say to you,
• any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people,
• but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whoever [y]speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but
• whoever [z]speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
The Heart Is Revealed by Words
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad;
• for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak [aa]what is good?
• For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 The good man brings out of his good treasure [ab]what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure [ac]what is evil. 36 But
• I tell you that every [ad]careless word that people [ae]speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 For [af]
• by your words you will be justified, and [ag]
• by your words you will be condemned.”