What Kind of Fencing Club IS THIS, Wednesday?
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- Опубликовано: 19 сен 2024
- Listen, I'm enjoying the new Wednesday series, which...genuinely surprised because I am grumpy and don't like things which require a large time investment, but oh BOY that fencing scene made me have FEELINGS ABOUT THINGS.
Music:
The Itch (Instrumental)
Galactic Damages
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I request a “One crisis at a time” mug, that’s what I need to see with my morning coffee.
Ordered some mech yesterday. Yay!
Mech? I would be very glad of a Not Actually Armour mecha.
Somebody's trying to pass themselves off as you. I just got a reply to my comment claiming I won something and should text this number.
Same
Kid: "I need an adult"
Coach: "I'm an adult"
Kid: "I need a different adult!"
nice reference
Dbz abridged if anyone wants to know
@@Goshin89 thank you, I wasn't quite sure where I heard it.
Certified Gohan moment
Huh. I always thought that was just a Desert Bus meme.
To me, Wednesday losing this fight was important to set up that she wasn't better than everyone and wasn't always going to be successful. There is a danger with her character of writing the show so that she's always insufferably correct and superior, and this gives us a Wednesday with some clear room for growth. Either in a "she will win the rematch" scenario or a "this is petty and beneath all of us" scenario.
EXACTLY, she would be Galadriel from RoP all over again. I was so happy to see strong minded but flawed female protagonist.
Yes, but also obligatory reminder that largely “nobody cares” with edgy male counterparts.
I’m glad Wednesday lost-it gives a built-in growth angle. She still could grow if she won, but it’s easier vs a challenge to write if she loses instead.
But like. I do grow weary that Female Characters MUST Be Flawed TM…whereas there’s literal camp and genres and tropes where this just isn’t “true” for Male (Edgy) Power Fantasy Characters.
Flawed/Growth Arcs always slap. But. Yeah. I’m always going to be suspicious of “Flawed Female Character Good” vs “Flawed Characters Good”
@@spacecat8511 It's not so much "flawed", but "actually human and not absolutely perfect at everything, the very first time we seem them" and that goes for any character we're supposed to identify with as the protagonist. Otherwise, there's nothing for them to do and nowhere for them to go as a character.
@@dj1NM3
Again I reiterate:
Wednesday’s Character is fine.
My gripe is that this is *never* a “oH fINALLy~” with *male* characters, who have existed as unflawed, zero growth room power fantasies for literally millennia but especially in what we’d consider modern media
A very good decision. They make her look hyper competent as the character should, but she's not flawless. She's not unbeatable. She has things to learn.
It is sad how many writers don't get this.
I think the instructor permitting dangerous behavior and bullying is part of the point. This is a school for rich weirdos, where both socially and physically hurting your rivals is considered character building and good training for later in life.
Actually, the Hogwarts analogy is pretty sound. The sheer amount of wildly unsafe and socially malicious behavior that is permitted makes for an exciting adventure location, but not an great educational experience.
He also have a vaguely eastern European accent so maybe he came from a school where they practiced Mensur
@@chrthiel That was my initial thought as well - Dueling scars seem *right* up the Addam's family's alley.
In both cases they do mirror real world view in these schools. Hogwarts seem rather civilized compared to what happens in those boarding schools.
Honestly given the Adams, I'm surprised he didn't suggest they fight with sharpened swords.
Covered in poison.
@@chrthiel if youd want to point at Acedamic Fencing and Mensur then give him a german accent its where its roots are and where its the most common. Even though some eastern countries epsecially the baltics have some wild rulesets compared to how its done in germany.
I think the fencing loss also sets up Wednesday as someone who doesn't hesitate to escalate even if she doesn't have what it takes to win. She just goes for it.
also it was needed to keep her from being mary suey. she is clearly highly competent and looking down on others, if she is supposed to be likeable and grow as a person she must fail at stuff to learn to do better next time
@@SingingSealRiana I mean , she still is pretty much a Mary Sue. But this is the kind of show where its ok.
Like noone complained about Jack Reacher being a Gary Stu(partly because of sexism) but also partly because in the context of the show its ok.
@@ClarksonNo1 not really, not everyone who is competent or eyecatching is a mary sue. she has flaws, fails and more importently, her failures have consequences. She is not a static character, she does grow as the result of interactions with others and seeing how she was wrong about stuff. She has layers of not "caring", still caring and at some point aknowlaging that yes, she does care all those are things a mary sue has not!
Neither does everyone over her without reason, nor does everyone hate her for nor reason either. Everyones reaction to her makes perfect sense, the world does not warp around her to allow for a story despite her being a static unmovable sue.
her falures also are not just for the story to happen and out of her control, but intrinsicly linked to who she is. Her inability to control how xavier sees her and her own reaction to him unnerves her, makes her forcably push him into the bad guy role. She did not insisiously got tricked, she tricked herself! Thats a level of depth no mary sue has!
@@ClarksonNo1 her being a Mary sue is integral to the character, because that is what causes her angst, that fact that she can't fail in anything she does, but of course, her entire life she was compared to normal humans, while now she is being compared to supernatural creatures much faster and stronger than her, that is the first time she is in danger and have to work hard to achieve something
@@SingingSealRiana before this show she was a Mary sue, and that is Ok in her case, because that was the joke of the character that she excelled at everything effortlessly (kinda like Saitama) and never had any challenge
As someone who fences - saluting is a big deal, we do it even when sparring. Hell, it's super common for newbies to over-salute after we reset when someone scores a point because they see people saluting so often.
I did when I fenced. Just went for it. Might as well be polite while pretending to stab the other person to death, right? :D
@@Tacticslion pretending?
@@christopheraaron1255 XD
I mean, it just seems like fun doesn't it?
My sister and I took a community fencing class one summer, and we were taught to salute!
My old fencing instructor used to say; "if you're going to kill the person, at least give them a decent salute".
Trained by a friar who includes the third salute to Heaven
I went to fencing there wasn't a salute maybe it's regional.
When I started fencing I was told when to salute and if in doubt just to salute anyway. It never hurts to be more respectful than you are required to be, especially when there are swords involved.
Absolutely!
I was also taught to treat the sword as a real weapon. There are *so* many safety violations that make me wince so hard.
Genuine Regard and coerced capitulation are not the same thing.
As an adult, when the teacher said "It's your decision, Bianca", I was like no, it's YOUR responsibility to prevent such nonsense!
Based on the review did anyone on the show put much thought into the fight scene at all? Presentation wise lots of fluff thrown together careless.
I mean it's Tim Burton doing The Addams Family. The absurdity of the faculty taking potential death and dismemberment rather lightly is the whole damn *point*.
Like if you prefer grounded realism over stylish absurdity I'm not sure this is the show for you. It feels like people are watching a sit-com and getting angry that they're cracking jokes.
Like the first scene had Wednesday throwing piranhas in the pool and they all instantly go for the delicious human flesh. Which is about as realistic as if they'd sprouted wings and started flying. If it took you until the fencing scene to figure out that realism wasn't just not the goal of the show, but like the actual antithesis of it, then I don't know what to tell you.
Reading this comment, I very much get a 'rich kid will get their way, so why bother?' sort of attitude from the coach. Maybe that's what they're going for. Maybe it's a "Adults Are Useless" trope.
@@HellaGust this
@@Hey_its_nathan89 I’m a rower, and the “rowing” scene is surreal to me, they’re not even on rowing boats, or in good posture
I'd love to say that teachers don't do shit like this, but PE in highschool and bullying right in front of them with no consequences except "Stop antagonizing then Brown" makes this the most realistic thing in that scenario to my eyes
High School P.E. IS basically ritualistic bullying. Picking teams is always a dominance exercise. Balls are thrown at faces on the regular. And coaches prattle on about "teamwork" ad nauseum.
My school would not allow you to do any sport you liked. You were stuck with aggressive & sneaky fellow students doing "team" sports you either hated or were poorly fit for.
I did do some fencing as an adult and LOVED it. Sadly due to wrist pain I had to stop. Though I HIGHLY recommend it to people.
Yeahhh allegedly “no face shots” but like. They still did it. And they still chucked basket balls as well vs softer volleyballs or kickballs. And they specifically “saved me for last.” OH YEAH, and the teacher ALSO put in a “can’t hold for more than 5 seconds” that was…only enforced on me. Instead of just ending the game, clearly I wasn’t gonna win, and I’d rather not get hazed further thanks?
Aaand repeatedly getting checked and smacked with jumpropes-the ones with plastic beads that always break. Those hurt like hell.
Anyway. Dodgeball (and red rover) should be banned
I hated PE so in my last year at secondary school I just stopped going to PE and no one noticed, or said nothing if they did. I just went to the library and read books or did homework.
YES! What is it about PE teachers? Most of them seemed to be sadistic and bullying!
I remember that it was fine for kids to bean my face with balls, so long as it only knocked the glasses off my face. Anytime that my glasses were broken, then they'd be admonished! (this was elementary school, my high school experience was far nicer).
I think Wednesday picks the fight because she wants to be an outsider... she's not looking for a status that puts her above others (though she thinks she is) she is looking to make an enemy of the popular so that she can be seen as the opposite. If the whole school hates you it is easier to be alone and devise a way to escape/get kicked out.
Or she wants to show she is still better then them and has no interest of being part of their stupid groups. She has that superiority complex vibe to her.
When you talked about saluting I remembered Harry and Draco facing off in the second book/movie. Perfect example of mutual contemptuous saluting!
YES EXACTLY! :D
Omg yess
Great example
Also the salute in fencing is not only to your opponent but it is a salute to the refferees aswell
My daughter immediately brought up Harry and Draco's duel, as well!
Schläger duels in Germany had you stand on boxes and duel each other with sharpened points and only eye protection. Mensur scars, i.e. scars from those duels, were considered high fashion. Inflicting the scars indicated dueling prowess, and receiving the scar well would result in you being regarded as tough enough to take a hit.
That's probably what Wednesday was referring to by "military challenge." But those duels served more as academic rites of passage. They were deliberately set up so that it was difficult to avoid incoming blows, because the point wasn't just to prove skill - it was to demonstrate a willingness and enthusiasm for risking permanent facial scarring, as a test of masculinity. Wednesday and Bianca are just plain... having a swordfight.
... and no eye protection...
It's all fun and games till somebody loses an eye - then it's hilarious.
It seems like a lack of neck protection there that concerns me, what would happen if someone cut there and the other out bleed?
Oh good someone else has already mentioned it. That's where my mind went once she started talking about first blood.
Actually, the Mensur is designed so that the only place you can get injured is the head as that was the only target and taking the hits is the main point of this exercise (no dodging allowed). Steel goggles are provided to protect the eyes (and usually the nose too) while the amount of protective equipment for the sword arm, neck & torso has increased over the years in these duels.
"extended rant with some positives thrown in" is definitely what I'm here for
To me it makes sense that Nevermore, the school Gomez Adams graduated from and fondly remembers, has its own type of fencing that looks superficially like Olympic fencing at a glance, but is much more laissez-faire and throat-cut in actuality.
Have to agree with this. Getting duelling scars at school is very 19th century... and so are the Addams. That Old World Old School nature *fits*. I don't think a single adult at Nevermore would have stopped the duel, and that's exactly why little Miss Piranhas in the Pool fits in there. Actually killing someone... a different matter. Serious injury? *shrug*.
Doesn't answer "What happened to the tips?" question
Well, the Addams family is said to have started in 1938... So 19th century is not THAT Old School to them.
Not saluting each other upset me so much. It was such an strange omission for a show that wants to be stylish. I also wonder why they didn’t give the coach a duelling scar to set up the idea-poor coach, bored by not getting to be sadistic and/or tough as he’d like.
Yeah. Considering they put so much focus on aesthetics. This one feels lacking. Like saluting, etc would have added more to it
Not to mention how much Gomez taught her growing up, and you'd imagine that he would have instilled that in her. It probably would have been second nature to both of them.
Tbh I think that (mini-spoiler) the fencing teacher only appears in that single scene, and probably they didn't dedicate too much time to character building for 2 lines...
@@FabriSlv He appears once more in the last episode and has one line.
@@iusedtowrite6667 really the problem isn't him allowing everything, it is how apathetic he is, they could instead make him excited that they are taking things seriously, which seems to be a rare Occurrence, or go the opposite way and make the fencing dangerous from the start to justify the Apathy
the character itself is also visually boring, they could have made him an undead pirate or something, they say ricci is the only normal teacher, but the only weird teacher that appeared was the principal
the coach the entire scene: "I'll allow it"
"Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, I said no fighty fighty" That line killed me 😂😂😂
10:13
XD
FACTS! 🤣🤣😭😭😭
Honestly one of the things that brought me up is her black uniform. My understanding was that the coach wore black both so everyone knows who he is, even with the mask on, but also because since it is mainly for coaches it has more padding so getting repeated hits in demonstrations doesn't hurt as bad. When I was fencing this actually came up, someone came in who had been coaching his high-school team.
Only if they follow the pre-2014 olympian tradition. In some pre-olympic traditions it was the students that wore black in order to make the scoring marks (tips with chalk pads) more visible.
My understanding is that literally any color of uniform is technically allowed, EXCEPT black. Although in practice everyone wears white because demand for other colors is niche enough that no one makes gear in other colors
@@andrewkiluk Meanwhile in HEMA fencing we all wear black :D
Safety does not seem to be a thing at Nevermore. In the episode after this, there is a boating competition that explicitly has no rules, and where the students are free to sabotage one another and using Ben Hur-like devices to sink each others' boats.
Yeah the swords device meant to hit the rowers seemed a bit over the top in the race scene.
and it looked like the merman was allowed to drown opponents.
lol Yeah, that teacher just letting the fight escalate sent me straight back to eighth grade. PE ‘teachers’ straight up telling guys to fight to “get it out of our system” was about a weekly occurrence. Made life miserable for those of us who didn’t have something to prove.
My middle school gym teacher did a similar thing but he would let the kids (boys and girls) fight him but tolerated no fighting amongst students. He was a big guy and would pick them up then put them on the floor or throw them at eachother, it was like play fighting with your dad.
Amen
Lol I had this boy steal and run off with my books only to have my teacher say she would make him give it back in a little bit....
Those without swords can still die at the end of one.
Ooo, I feel like “Be a little more McGonagall” would be a great piece of merch!
I would love that!
As a teacher, it would be great to have a mug with those words, just as a daily reminder. xD
Sold next to merch of this teacher shrugging his shoulders and saying "whatever".
With a pic of Miss Jean Brodie (maggie smith's other scottish teacher role)
One of the things that the whole Addams Family franchise, starting with the original cartoons, had going was this idea that they're everything that a normal family can't be because it's too strange for polite society, and yet somehow the consequences of that strangeness never stick. It's a different kind of fantasy storytelling, but really no different in spirit from Harry Potter's magicians never being discovered by the muggle society. So yeah, the school is a constant contradiction in that events take place that should have consequences, but don't. That's just the genre we're in.
The teacher’s uselessness was the most realistic part of that scene.
Btw, I can confirm that you can DEFINITELY draw blood with a blunt sabre! My jacket's sleeve pulled a little loose from my glove during a match, and my opponent, trying to stab for my chest under my arm, got parried by my bell into shooting that blade right up the gap. Left a very nice 6" scar on my forearm. Pro, it drew a nice bloody line, so it left a scar, but it was shallow and didn't need stitches. Con, it was shallow and didn't need stitches, so it vanished over 20 years without me quite noticing it. It might still be there under ultraviolet...? But alas, only as a memory.
Saw a blade break on a foil in a match, and it ended up going into the guy's stomach through the padded jacket. Fencing is inheriently risky, that's why there's the protective clothing and stuff to minimise that risk. Not impressed they showed it being ok to muck about.
Also they're fighting with sabres, but using foil footwork - and they're so slow. I get the impression that either the fight arranger knows foil, and read a book about sabre, or the director wanted it to look like foil because that's what an audience expects to see, but thought sabres were cool.
ruclips.net/video/qKVU7XLFhFY/видео.html
Had a similar experience with my first longbow back when I was 12. String snapped on me just before release. And even through the bracer it managed to cut so deeply into my arm that even at 35 I still have the scar. Thankfully it did no tendon damage.
bloody brusies after some forcefull stabs are a thing even though breeches. Thankfully I didn't have any traumatic experiences, but once a blade went trough my glove, tearing quite a big hole in it. And the blade wasn't broken, so ig just angle + force + chance
You learn quite quickly to put your ungloved hand behind your back in any fencing event. They can definitely draw blood although never should do so through the safety clothing
@@nath9091 One of the hardest things for me to teach students, was to keep that off-weapon hand away from the chest. When some student's hand got whacked so hard it shed a clear liquid of some kind (!!), I definitely made sure the others came over to observe it. Also, of course, it's illegal for blocking target in foil, but even in sabre and epee it's pretty dumb (though instinctive) to hover over the chest. I was watching Branagh's Hamlet again last week, and when he and Laertes started fighting with their off-hands near their chests (on what was supposed to be a practice bout at first), I argh'd aloud! (Of course once they escalated it's better to sacrifice the off-hand than a potentially fatal hit to the chest, but by then good form was thrown out and danced upon anyway.)
I love Jill flexing fencing knowledge about foils and sabers.
A show that could be great to take a look at the fencing in is a show called Lockwood and Co. The fencing in it is amazing. Love your videos!
Lockwood & Co!
I chalked it up to the TV high school cliche of adults being useless and having no authority. And I don't see any faculty support. Where are clerks, SECAs and TAs? And Can someone explain why the love interests are boring?
They are there to help Wednesday and for no other reason? They are the Hot Brooding Love Interest and the Hot Sensitive Normie Love Interest and that's...it.
The love interests were genuinely unnecessary. They added nothing of value to the plot.
@@JillBearup I would go with Tortured artist Love Interest and barista boy but yeah, that describes them pretty well.
What do you mean? Enid isn't boring. (Yeah, I know you're talking about the male love interests, but Wednesday and Enid have so much more chemistry and moments that feel like meaningful development in that direction than either of them.)
I think they're just normal, not boring. In contrast to Wednesday herself and the concept of the school, they seem pretty bland, but I thought they were realistic and refreshing for a teen show. Except for how the normie turns out towards the end, that kinda ruined the character and it was a big lost opportunity at nuance and depth.
I think the only reason they aimed at the legs was to knock them off balance, because if you have to flail your arms to get your balance which means they can't protect thier face at the same time.
Maybe not knock them off balance, 'sport' saber blades are thin and flexible enough that they'd bend and break before it really pushes you. But maybe flinching from pain so you can get to the face in time maybe.
@@gln6f They may be bendy, but it takes a good load of force to break them. In my years of fencing I have only ever broken two sabres and I'm a very tall and rather brute force type fencer 😆
@@wickedwonderland9831 Lol, I feel ya. Most of my fencers are both in college and almost always new. Learning distance is... Something.
But getting back on topic, I don't know man. With as much bending those blades do, I've never really gotten pushed by a saber. Bell guard on occasion, but not really from the blade.
@@wickedwonderland9831 i did foil fencing for 3 jears and have only ever broken i belive 2 foils and those happened when me and my opponent both lunged at the same time expecting the other to retreat. They don't break easily. I would say it is even more for sabre because those need to be flexible enough to not break during repeated violent hits against other blades.
@@kim-hendrikmerk4163 That's what I was implying, yes 🙄
I love your braids! Great idea with the “Wednesday confessionals”!
Gomez and Morticia are so tolerant of Wednesday, they don't even mind her casually waterboarding her brother. Best parents ever!
....Wait!
The whole family has canonically seen torture as a fun time. We may not see it as good parenting, but it’s completely on brand.
@@Robynhoodlum I loved how this has always been a running gag *until* Wednesday legit started to torture someone on screen in the show. Suddenly reminding us that, yep, this is something our hero does semi-regularly.
I wasn't expecting Wednesday to lose, but I was glad she did.
It's been almost 30 years since the last time I fenced, so I forgot about the importance of saluting.
However, I do remember that without electronic scoring, it takes 5 people to properly judge a saber match. "Attack, parry, riposte, hit left" and then the two people watching for hits on that side concur or not. It's very involved.
I remember when touches were scored against you, not for you. Low score was the winner. The change took a lot of getting used to.
@@danielhawkins6425 and was apparently done to make the sport more accessible to non fencers.. that TOTALLY worked! 😁
Not "concur" side judges were responsible for the validity of the hit only. The director's interpretation of the action always ruled. Line judges voted on the hit with the director breaking a tie if necessary.
In a high school it would probably be less necessary to judge so accurately though
@@cosmicriptid I would argue that accuracy in judging is more critical at the high school level. It's important for fencers, especially saber and foil where right-of-way is involved, to get accurate feedback on what they are doing so they are not confused.
Hi! I really loved this video! If you are interested in reacting to some fencing scenes in another Netflix fantasy show for your RUclips channel, I have a recommendation for you! It’s a show called Lockwood and Co, and it was released this year in January. Lockwood and Co is based on Jonathan Stroud’s book series of the same name, and it is a fictional story set in London during a ghostly epidemic of hauntings. In this “Problem”-riddled London, only young people have the ability to detect and fight ghosts. A really big part of the worldbuilding in this show is fencing and rapier-work. There are many fight scenes that involve fencing with rapiers (involving human to human, as well as human to ghost combat). Since you like covering stage fights in your RUclips channel, I think this show would be right up your alley! I, and other Lockwood and Co fans, would love to see you talk about this show on your channel!
Yes! Would love to see an analysis from Lockwood & Co!
Yeah! I'd love to see your analysis for Lockwood and Co too!⚔️❤
Really would like an analysis on Lockwood & Co fights.
Yes, Lockwood & Co! Got me interested in fencing in the first place.
That would be really cool! I love Lockwood and Co
Yeah, I kinda think it is leaning into the whole weirdos=monsters thing, there's a theme of outcasts being violently murdered in the series that kind of indicate that being able to defend yourself is taken a lot more seriously at Nevermore than other places. Then again, some of your points would have enhanced that, I'd have been partial to a "old german with fencing scarred cheek" character myself.
"Wednesday. Tango. Foxtrot."
So good on so many levels.
Well done.
The lack of saluting definitely takes you out of the scene. Atleast to me. Like they did the salute even in the Harry Potter movies in the Harry vs Draco.
@JillBearup In the Addams world, the "freaks" never give "safety" any regard. Gomez challenging guests to fencing, the knife throwing, Fester being electrocuted constantly, Wednesday trying to execute her brother. The fencing scene is perfectly normal in their world.
I think the thing that might be throwing some viewers off is that while, yes, this is all perfectly normal behavior in the Addam's world, most other versions have a more absurdist comedy framework, whereas Wendsday seemingly takes itself more dramatically. The fencing feels more jarring because the presentation makes it feel more "real" with the corresponding potential for lasting consequences that just would never have been there in the classic TV series or more modern movies.
@@EmeralBookwise but the show opens with Wednesday dropping a swarm of piranha into a swimming pool, and the fish immediately attacked swimmers, turning the pool blood red. So, we immediately are reminded that "life and death" consequences dont really apply in the same way. I mean.. those fish would not have lived long in a chlorine filled pool. Poor fish. Joking aside, the only consequence Wednesday received for putting several students into the hospital is expulsion.
Tis movie.
Had it been Morticia or Gomez letting the kids fence like that, I wouldn't have reacted much to that scene. I guess I expected the coach to be more concerned about safety, if only because those aren't his kids.
I somehow forgot that A) the senior Addams attended that school and B) he's a gym teacher.
i was unnerved by the coach being so blase about his students trying to slice each others' faces open until the boat race happened, at which point i realized that no, it's definitely supposed to be fucked-up, and serious bodily injury is just an accepted risk. (even right before that with the "garlic incident," i realized that they definitely don't care if students get roughed up. like how hard is it to not serve food with garlic in it when probably a third of your student population is deathly allergic to it???)
I was expecting Wednesday to win but I had the same thought immediately after the fight that this gives her room to grow. It's great that she's not automatically the best at everything, even if she is very good.
@JillBearup please see the above comment. I think someone is trying to dupe your audience.
@JillBearup Please see the above comment. I think someone is trying to dupe your audience.
Taken care of, thank you! 🙂
My old fencing coach used to say "you learn more from losing than you do from winning." At the time I thought he was nuts, but years
later I saw the wisdom of that. 🤺
From the moment this scene entered my corneas, I knew you'd do a video on it.
Wednesday is really good, keep at it!
“Be a little more McGonagall”…..❤️love it!
Doesn't she mention to Morticia about her having been in fencing? So this could also be Wednesday trying to one-up her mom
Yeah, Morticia was the captain of the team when she was at Nevermore
Wednesday's character arc is about her being this super femme fatale image that scares away bullies and anyone thinking about messing with her.... and suffering for it in an environment where these defenses are not necessary and where she would be accepted if she just got over herself. I don't think she's just used to these defenses, she actively believes her own nonsense about her being unemotional, even psychotic that unapologetically uses people but doesn't understand that being that person has disadvantages. Like she got the ideas from books and it worked to get highschool bullies off her, but doesn't understand that this is not a constructive way to build your life. I actually think that's a good way to write a teenage Wednesday Addams.
As for the fencing coach, it is stated that all the teachers except one is a freak of some sort. So this guy might be some centuries-old dude who was a fencing instructor or something when this sort of petty honor-dueling was common and even part of his life, so he allows it because he thinks this is part of fencing. And the school doesn't look at it closely becuase they have a hard time getting teachers or qualifications aren't the highest hiring criteria.
as a former fencer:
yes, you always salute. it's basically muscle memory for anybody at their (purported) level
anything below the waist is off-target for sabre, so technically aiming for the lower legs is not something saberists train for. (and never mind the spinning moves)
Its' so strange, I've been watching only your fantasy heroine series for so long that I can't unsee Rosamound and Caroline when I look at you
Do you see Caroline but hear Rosamund? Or do you see both simultaneously? I'm curious now :D
@@JillBearup it changes depending on your facial expression.
@@JillBearup I think I see both simultaneously, but when you do certain head movements and say something, it fluctuates each moment more strongly to one, like when you describe something going on with a neutral (maybe cheeky?) smile, it gives Caroline, "I call it like I see it ", and when you are more emotional and/or passionate it gives Rosamund.
I think Jill should do one of these analyses _as_ Caroline and Rosamund. Caroline can comment on all the emotional interaction and Rosamund can do the serious fight analysis.
Next step: Jill looks in a mirror and sees Caroline or Rosamund.
Yet next step: Caroline and Rosamund discuss whether the person called “Jill” is real.
I think the "no salute" thing is supposed to indicate lack of respect for eachother. Saluting is mainly sportsmanship in most sports so i believe the lack of salute implies this is not a "sports thing" but an actual real fight disguised as a sparr
THANK YOU! No idea why she didn't think of that. Wednesday is the rebelest rebel, she would not salute someone she perceives as a bully and someone be beaten.
@@ghostcrackers I'm not completely sure my argument is bulletproof but i'm glad you agree
I'm with you on the saluting each other being mandatory. no matter what we had to do that at practice, didn't matter if we were tired or had already had a sparring match that day. EVERY time you start fencing somebody you salute them.
Whisky, tango foxtro--- ohhhhh, that's a good one! I'm stealing that.
It wasn't until the second time I watched this that I tried spelling it. Oh. Of course!
Watched the scene a couple of days ago and thought “Oh she is gonna do a thing about this”
10:46 run time…
I am excite.
I think a lot of the danger inherent to the stuff they do in this show is mitigated by the simple fact that were operating in The Addams Universe as it were, where Wednesday regularly electrocutes Pugsly, and the family dumps scalding oil on carolers. Danger that isn't immediately relevant to the plot kinda doesn't apply where the Addams' are concerned XD
Heey! I really enjoyed your video and explanations! 😍I would love to see your review of Lockwood and Co as it has many fencing scenes and is very thrilling and entertaining show on its own!
If I had to give an in-story reason for the coach letting it all happen, I'd say "the kid's parents are to rich for me to do anything else".
Argh! Subtitles misidentifying weapons! Foiled again!
Whether that's egregious or not, I'm on the fence about it.
you've a sharp wit there
Idk about you all, but I'm on the fence about the misindentified weapons
... ... ... this was brilliant, and I salute you for it (unlike the scene).
Epéerently so
"Whiskey Tango Foxtrot"......
Appreciate!
I created the fencing scene in Bridgerton series 2 and trained the actors (Jonathan Bailey, Luke Thompson and Luke Newton) to do the scene. The actors were great but it's hard because the script doesn't tend to make sense from a fencing point of view to start with, the director has funny ideas and then anything could happen in editing. I think in the end I was happy with how the Bridgerton scene came out, pretty close to my vision.
Ooooo fight analysis is back
Those and your rants about wedge heels are your best stuff
Given that we had a lay guy working as a doctor and psychiatrist for 17 years here in Germany, it's probably safe to say that "School of Rock" borders on documentary.
On a totally different note: I LOVE these on-point fight scene analyses (former stage combat instructor here). Your understanding of both crafts (acting and blade business) is delightful!
Regarding the "no tips": that might be inspired by "Theatre of Blood" from 1973. It starred Vincent Price as a, say, creatively vengeful actor, and it had a somewhat similar fight with a "remove the tip" moment in it.
I got the impression that this scene was written for epee but was switched to sabre later. Would make a lot more sense with the dialogue at least.
Oh my gosh, you should give Lockwood and Co a watch if you need more shows that have Fencing in them. It's a show about kids who fight ghosts with Rapiers.
"Be a little more McGonagall" is my new moto as a lecturer
Probably they didn't do good research.
The part Wednesday speaks German. Let me say it like that: There are some German words at the beginning, and some in the end. Middle part is complete gibberish and an English number is somewhere in between.
I'm pretty sure if she had a native German instructor, she could have learned everything she had to say in a day. If she knew already some German (kindergarden-vocabulary) it wouldn't be more than a few hours (just corrections for some kind of perfection). She might still have an accent, but it wouldn't have been gibberish.
German pronounciation is much easier than English.
Don't get me wrong, it is the only thing that is easier. You learn it once and you can pronounce quite difficult words. There can be tricky words, that may be slightly different spelled like Blumento-Pferde [German Insider]. But for German kids, the hardest thing is to learn are the letters - once they know them, they can read close to anything. And even if you misspell a word, Germans might still understand, what you originally meant.
(I do readings with German-Learners - like coaching here and there a little bit - and the most difficult thing we encounter are English words in German texts. They have no chance to know if the pronounciation is English or German.)
Oh, yeah. When I heard the tourists chatter I thought: "Is that German?" When Wednesday started to speak "German" I was like: "Nah, the tourists must be Dutch! ... That isn't Dutch, either. What is this?!" Only when the tourists left I actually heard some German from them. I didn't understand a single word Wednesday said.
It's like they handed the actor the script and gave her no time to prepare, so she had to improvise.
@@annadarko6056 I just relistened to it...
The beginning is actually halfways understandable, though very hard accent and a few words are not understandable.
Middle part - not understandable at all.
End part "Hat jemand interesse." is completely understandable.
I don't think the people were German. They just took some German audio from somewhere to cut it in.
A German telling her: Just repeat what I say - and it would be 100% understandable with only a slight accent.
Or if she did learn German pronounciation and just read the text from somewhere.
They also didn't do it in one go, which makes it even worse.
SaveLockwoodandCo
At my fencing club we don't always salute for casual sparring matches either and if we do it's usually a very sloppy, quick motion before putting on the mask. Though, granted, the atmosphere at our club is a lot more relaxed than what we see in this scene.
quick and sloppy to each other? absolutely.. but no salute at all? NEVER!
So i'm a science teacher and sometimes we deal with practical lessons where there's small risks, hot water, irritating chemicals, electricity, etc.If a child in my lesson somehow ended up with a gash across their forehead i'm fairly sure i'd be in for a disciplinary.
I remember very vaguely when I did fencing in High-school that we had very cheap foils and they had plastic tips. I don't think I ever removed one to see what was underneath, although it was the 90's and I could totally see them getting real cheap ass foils and pretending to blunt them with plastic. That might be what they meant by tips, with some writer drawing from hazy childhood memories.
"dry" (not electric) foils have a similar rounded button as pictured with a rubber tip over it, dry sabers (in my day that's all there was electric sabre became standard a few years after I stopped being competitive) never had rubber tips.
i was very pleased to hear you say "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" For WTF! As an old Navy man, we said that all the time and was very excited to hear the proper phonetics. Excellent review! It is such a pleasure to hear and see you expound passionately!
Hah, I only watched the first episode yesterday and did keep thinking that this fight seemed bogus fencing 😄
WRT _School of Rock,_ the reason Jack Black's work makes no sense when you look at it seriously is that _it wasn't ever meant to be taken seriously._ While not as openly in-your-face parodic as many satires, the film was very much a satire of the "miracle worker teacher" genre, and was so effective at making them look ridiculous that we've since stopped seeing miracle worker teacher films almost entirely.
*i must say the fencing sequence was much more dramatic than it would have been if foam pool noodles had been utilized...and far less silly*
Then it wouldn't have been fencing, they were using proper fencing sabres
Our collegiate epee matches were notoriously dirty. College fencing in the mid 1970s in Florida was almost without adult supervision of any kind, and we embraced our rivalries.
The Handel's of the weapons at the start look like sabers, however the lack of an electric laramie suggests épée
I just assumed they're all fencing steam rather than electric, as it were :D
It’s not that uncommon in the fencing circles I’ve been in to do warm up/training bouts ‘dry’ (without the electric lamé) so that’s what I figured was happening. Although the presence of metal strips imply they do electric epee on the same strips, but I’ve fenced saber on a metal strip even in competitions, so not too odd.
The lack of visible reels or scoring boxes is odd however. Even if they aren’t using them at the moment if they went through the trouble of getting the metal strips why don’t they have any of the rest of the equipment to make them worth the investment?
Yes, I just assumed it was a dry bout. There are plenty of times in open bouting that I don't feel like transforming into a baked potato....
The speed and swipes suggest saber cause epee is simply not that fast and is all about the tip of the weapon which you stab the other person with; however it doesn’t even look like saber to me…I propose this is a new/old style of fencing called movie fencing which bears only a superficial resemblance to the actual competitive sport of fencing. Also any coach who doesn’t throw you out of the gym and off the team for walking through live fencing bouts is doing an awful job of being a coach.
@@KrisOrcott strong agree
The 'fencing' is saber-technique mixed with 'fight-dancing', which is what actors are taught as they fake fight through pre-set and practiced sequences. In the scene Wednesday actually mocks fight-dancing as she does it with so much flair that it becomes an off-beat tango.
It's been a hot minute since I did saber, but the thing that stood out at me about the first two points was that there were multiple cuts, thrusts, etc. going in one direction. Saber has right of way. If you attack and miss or get parried things tend to immediately start moving in the other direction because you've given up right of way and if there's a double touch, you lose, which necessarily puts you on the defensive.
Right-of-way? Really?? Have you watched Olympic level sabre fencing lately?🤢 It's all "clash and pray" nowadays. You'll find more respect for right-of-way at the club level.
@@danielhawkins6425 that all checks out considering I only ever fenced at club level and don’t watch the Olympic stuff
"When I caste my mind back to Hogworts" sounded ominously first hand. Images of you running straight through a wall at Botanic.
You have NO PROOF that ever happened XD
As you will find out in a later episode, the school has very lax rules in regards to safety. At least when it comes to student v student. They do have rules in regards to normies.
“Be a little bit more Mcgonagall, is what I’m saying.” is now my parenting mantra.
Two comments, 1) yes if a point is scored in sabre you go back to the starting points. Only exception is if the Judge cannot determine right of way when both combatants hit at once and thus no point is awarded.
2) when Bond had that 'first blood from the torso' they took OFF the jackets. Though I think there is a German style of duel which is first blood from the face but I couldn't give the name
Someone above called it Schlager.
I haven't fenced properly in over a decade, but I still remember my first year in class, Spanish fencing is a bit of a trip. Pants, mask, no shirt. But the eighties were a special time.
I have trouble liking Wednesday because I feel like the show misses the point of the Addams Family and misses on the characters. The fencing scene is an example of this, because Wednesday has literally nothing to prove here and Bianca hasn’t crossed her, so Wednesday deciding to throw down with her doesn’t make sense.
Also, fencing is ALL form and discipline… even epee. Even if the couch is a supernatural vampire weirdo who doesn’t mind teenagers spilling a little blood, the rules should matter to him, because the whole point of fencing is to give your street fight some structure and then it became a sport. It would have been more satisfying if Bianca and Wednesday fight started to become dirty on the third action and the couch immediately called it off, leaving Wednesday and Bianca with no clear victor but a definite rivalry.
Ooh, I like that. And yes, Wednesday has definitely picked up a touch of the Teenage Hormones in this series. I'm hoping they'll, you know, DO SOMETHING with that and it leads to character growth, but...who knows.
Are you saying Wednesday the character, in like every adaptation, wouldn't be down for a challenging fight with potentially lethal weapons?
Have you even watched an Adam's Family thing before? rofl
And Wednesday herself otherwise seems very much into formality, like where she criticizes her captors at one point and tells them, "You give kidnapping a bad name".
@@BlazingOwnager Firstly, there is two Ds in Addams.
Secondly, the Addamses never pick fights. Even in Addams Family Values, Wednesday didn’t revolt against the awful summer camp until they locked her in Happy Cabin multiple times and strong armed her into being in a racist Thanksgiving pageant. If they had left her alone and let her read all summer, she wouldn’t have burned the place down.
It’s out of character for Wednesday to care about the social hierarchy of a school she plans on escaping, let alone take a swing at someone who hasn’t crossed her at all.
I took it to be Wednesday's first attempt at getting kicked out of school. If the admin's favorite queen bee gets injured, maybe the admin expel Wednesday. Not much different than piranha in the swimming pool.
A note about the background extras "holding the blade vertically while not attacking at all" and the other "retreating while attacking"
This is actually entirely normal. Fencer on the left is using "absence," or, holding the saber back and away from the opponent during a patient pursuit to avoid beats or hits on the blade to change the right of way. Fencer on the right isn't "attacking", but searching for aforementioned beats or hits on the blade. This makes perfect sense in the context of modern saber even if the background actors aren't doing it very skillfully. You will find exchanges like this even at the highest levels of Olympic Saber.
lmaooo this is so true i think youve pointed out all the worst parts of this scene. I'm a foil fencer but its wild to me how much theyre fencing like foilists and not saberists EVEN THOUGH theyre using sabers. And like you said, saluting is still VERY MUCH a thing you do, exactly like putting on your seatbelt. And i fenced in school so I would know.
The other reason for the salute is to make sure that your opponent is ready to fight/you are fighting the right person. I totally agree that the coach making them salute would've been a perfectly reasonable 10-20 second beat that establishes character.
As someone who participated in a swordsmanship club during college. Yes it's crazy that they did that we never took off our face masks
I once dropped my foil *after* I got hit and the bout was over, and the instructor still warned me to always keep my guard up. Safety measures over all.
THANK YOU!!! Now, I'll be the first person to admit my fencing knowledge is limited. ( I took six weeks of lessons in the mid-1990s) However, you hit every single point that took me out of the scene. From the "um, those are sabers" to the WTF on "no tips". While there are a few more things I didn't like about the series (YA tropes of the love triangle, frienemies, and bestie becomes the late-blooming hero), I LOVED this iteration of The Addamses.
On the topic of saluting absolutely, you don't even think about it after awhile to the point if anyone who has been fencing for very long doesn't salute it is automatically considered to be a deliberate insult because saluting is almost instinctive. I think the only time I ever saw anyone legitimately forget to salute it was because they were about to collapse from heat exhaustion.
...is it odd that this video has sold me on archive bingeing the series at the next convenient opportunity?
It's...pretty good? So far? The love interests don't have a patch on Leo and Robin though :D
@@JillBearup Weeeelll. That's down to the sheer stellar quality of the scriptwriting. And also the fact that Leo *and* Robin are grown men with purpose, careers, and wives. (:
HA!
(tries to think about this in more detail and is suddenly wrestling with a mild headache)
LOL
As someone who fenced for 11-12 years starting at age 7 and has a previously D-rated foil-fencer brother, I just wanted to add some thoughts I had. Note: never seen this show so keep that in mind if I say anything about the setting/characters that's incorrect.
2:18 Jill is 100% right about this club allowing rudeness. But something Jill missed (or at least didn't touch on) is Rowan's behavior at the end of the match. Not shaking your opponents hand at the end of a match is one of THE MOST rude things you could POSSIBLY DO if you're fencing. This happened to me ONCE (I completely destroyed him 0-5 and he walked off without saying anything, taking off his mask, or shaking my hand) and I was legitimately so offended and shocked. I called out to him (thinking "you know sometimes people get distracted and forget; It's alright") and he ignored me and continued to walk away. Everyone who saw it was stunned and I purposefully never fenced with him again. It was a long time ago but I think I even went and told the coach about it after it happened. I have seen grown adults throw HUGE hissy fits over losing (throwing things, yelling, just generally unsportsmanlike) but even THEY have NEVER dared to walk off without shaking hands. That's like the ONE THING you don't do. So these club rules are VERY lax indeed.
3:31 In an official match, the coach LITERALLY will not, and CANNOT, start the match until both opponents salute each other. A couple times I've seen people forget to salute (like they were messing with their equipment for a minute and thought they already did it type of stuff) and the judge will just sit there like 😐until the person salutes. It's kind of funny to watch because they'll sit there for like a whole minute waiting for the judge to call "fence" and then somebody will ask "uhh did you say fence already?" and the judge will be like "you haven't saluted yet" and then the fencer will be like "OH CRAP SORRY!" 🤣🤣 Also unless the match doesn't have a judge (i.e. two friends just fencing each other) you CANNOT start fencing until the judge says "engarde, fence". And even if it's not a competition, the judge has the right to stop the match if the fencers didn't wait for the judge's command. This also goes for ignoring when the judge says "halt". And in some cases, the judge will start the whole match over if you do it enough. This is usually a "house rules" type of thing and they won't just restart a match in a tournament. If you showed constant disregard for the judge's authority in a tournament match frequently enough though, I'm guessing you'd get a yellow card. 2 yellow cards = a red card, red card means you are disqualified from the match, black card means you're banned from the Salle (In some places it goes sequentially: first penalty is a yellow card, second is a red card, and third is a black card and means you're disqualified from the match). Never seen anybody refuse to salute the opponent though so I wouldn't know about that. Doing that has just never occurred to me because that's super rude.....and such a waste of time lol.
4:00 More of a personal/my Salle thing but I wanted to mention it anyways. Fencing as a whole has moved onto this "keep back arm down by the side" sort of form (like what Wednesday is doing) which is incredibly dumb imo. In foil, you get a yellow card for covering target (torso). Having your arm by your side like that increases the odds of you accidentally covering target as well as ACTUALLY covering target without it counting (which feels very underhanded). Also when you lunge, your arm has to fold back (like if you were gesturing that you caught the BIGGEST FISH EVER). So if your arm is by your side, when you lunge you increase your chances of throwing your entire body off-aim when you throw your arm back. Not to mention how much energy that uses in comparison to the traditional way. In addition, it's better in fencing to keep your body facing away from the opponent (i.e. as close as you can get to keeping your chest pointed 90 degrees away from your opponent). When your arm is near your hip, it makes you more likely to turn your body towards the opponent. The traditional way is more like what the other girl is doing. What my Salle was taught is more like if you were to curl your arm (like how a little kid shows off their muscles) and then relax it while still keeping it in that general shape. Keeps your body more sideways, uses less energy when lunging, doesn't throw off aim as easily, and keeps your arm VERY far away from your chest so no accidental yellow cards. And the traditional way looks way cooler too lol. Anyway it's not technically an inaccuracy within the show but it IS a personal pet peeve of mine. Especially with the amount of times people have had this form and then BLOCKED MY SHOT WITH THEIR ARM but they technically "weren't covering target" because their hand is already sort of in that area so the judge can't tell. So slimy imo.
4:00 Also that lunge was so bad lol. Don't lean with the body, lunge with the legs! Keep your body balanced and upright. Just DON'T LEAN!
4:36 Actually as hilarious as that is, it's kind of common for beginners to do. Especially if they just feel personally threatened or intimidated by their opponent for any reasons (ex: size, age, skill level, attitude, from previous matches, etc.). The person who is "scary" is advancing so the instinct of the "scared person" is to retreat even though they literally have an opening. I probably did that a lot as a little kid lol. Also the advancing with the tip up is indicative of someone getting ready to "flick", which in foil is another move that feels incredibly underhanded and slimy to me. Just trying to get the buzzer to go off without ACTUALLY making any meaningful contact (which is why it doesn't make sense in this clip since they aren't hooked up to anything electrical). Feels like when a kid climbs out of the pool, runs to the other side before getting back in, and then starts gloating about their win when you race just because you didn't specify "swimming race" when OBVIOUSLY that's what you meant. Once again, technically not illegal or inaccurate but still a pet peeve of mine.
4:51 The amount of LEEAANNIINNGG AAGGHHHH!! Like yeah sometimes you end up leaning a bit when fencing but the amount in which these two are leaning when they are retreating or lunging is so bad. I don't know, maybe it's a saber thing (I did foil). But at least in foil it would be incredibly indicative of a newbie (like "not even a year into fencing" newbie). Which is funny because they're supposed to be really good. I knew legit 8 year olds with better form and I'm not exaggerating. It is accurate though for beginners if that's what these two are supposed to be lol. Surprisingly though, their footwork looks alright. Like I'm not mad about it (so far lol).
5:23 I don't do saber but at least in foil YES! You HAVE to go back to the engarde lines. If you don't, it's like the saluting thing: the judge can't and won't call "fence". The fact that they didn't go back just feels like a set up for Wednesday to push the other girl all the way to the other side of the strip and I low-key hate it (I haven't seen any further in the video so if that happens istg). And if that's what they wanted, they could've just had one of them hit off target. Of course, that would've required a judge to call "halt, off target" and as we already know, nobody is judging this match.
OMFG I just pressed play and exactly what I said would happen, happened......I hate this lol.
6:05 I'm sorry WHAT?! No. Just no. This would not, and should not be happening. This is so wrong on so many levels. My coach wouldn't even let me hold a foil with the tip OFF THE GROUND if the people around me didn't have masks on, let alone LET US FENCE! Like LEGITIMATELY my coach wouldn't even let us do target practice on a person unless WE were wearing a mask. Like the other person is UNARMED and we weren't allowed practice without a mask. He had multiple true stories of people getting SERIOUSLY injured because they weren't wearing a mask. It's so crazy that Wednesday was allowed to do that.
7:25 Also let's say they WERE allowed to do this "military challenge"......they'd have to do it ON THE STRIP! Like that just becomes a danger to the OTHER FENCERS! Especially the ones who are already fencing someone and therefore don't notice two crazy teenage girls behind them. If they were going to do this they should be on the strip. Also at this point it's an insult to call this fencing in any capacity I'm sure lmao.
That's what I noticed. Maybe some of my observations are off because I don't do saber but gosh darn it it's still infuriating. I hope I was at least enlightening in some way lmao
Nothing say I'm a great teacher like safety violations lol
The literal school of hard knocks.
As a fencer trying to convince my family how stupid this scene is, thank you! You have vindicated me!
Fight analysis or rant it doesn't matter... We win either way.
1. Thank you for bringing up Die Another Day. Maybe it's just the whole "fencing lessons in a really fancy old ballroom" thing going on that made me instantly think of that movie, but it was REALLY there.
2. I took fencing lessons all of three times as a trial set of lessons. Fairly typical short, French-ancestry instructor, and then me, 6'2" Polish-Sicilian decent mongrel. I go in for a first attack...and discover why there's a neck guard, square where his Adam's apple should be.
He used this as a teaching moment, but I realized that no matter how much my knees bent, I was never going to go in for any sort of proper positioning and so I moved on after that trial.
In the military challenge I can see why Wednesday would slash at the feet. As you said Bianca is taller than Wednesday and she did score a point because of her height advantage. Wednesday is crouching and wants to drive Bianca back so go for the legs.
"Be a little bit McGonagal ..." may be one of my new mantras!
I think they were trying to emulate the German Schlager tradition, but it didn't quite come off because that isn't really about fencing. Also why have they all got decent looking kit but no proper fencing shoes, and why is nobody doing epee?
Sabre looks flashy and more eye-catching so I get why filmmakers prefer it. Maybe it's just Sabre Day at the club XD
@@JillBearup or the club focusing on sabre because the school used to train people into cavalry officers? And the military challenge IS an old rule kept in the school documents? It looks to be old.
I personally think Wednesday dueling Bianca is her take on the old "beat up the toughest guy in prison so nobody dares to mess with you"
I binged the series, it is so good. I liked that Wednesday looses it gives her an opportunity for growth that I don’t think would have been there if she had won.
"THEY'RE PLAYING WITH SWORDS!!!"
"It's educational."
"BUT WHAT IF THEY GET HURT?"
"Then that will be a valuable lesson."
(Shout out to Terry Pratchett.)
Can’t wait for your commentary on the choreography in episode 4.