Radiator Companies Have Been Lying To Us For Year & We Need Your Help
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Uk Radiators are on a mission to finally put a stop to companies falsely advise if the heat output of radiators.
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This is on a level with the car companies fiddling the emission figures .
💯
but at least we were told which cars had dodgy emmissions!
Yes, and it just goes on and on!
should have a nice lawsuit coming I hope
I wish I hadn't watched this video. I've just spent a week calming myself down after getting really angry with the govt. Now I'm bloody furious with them again 😠😠😠
I remember my mother in-law wanted a designer radiator to replace the one she had. So I looked for the same but in a designer radiator. Ever since I installed it the room has never been as warm as it was before. It makes sense now
Could well be the case, designer rads generally have a lower surface area than standard panel rads, so if they were the same dimensions, then it would naturally have a lower heat output. Whether it was advertised as such is another story!
She probably chose the white one.
Should have got anthracite.
I had a customer who was convinced by the brochure of one of these companies that somehow their special paint was going to practically double the heat output ...!!
Makes sense, I've done the same at home and have the same feeling
My electrician told that Fischer future heat who charge a minimum £900 per radiator are no better than cheap panel heaters from Argos at £30 😢😢😢😢
For an electric heater that is mostly correct, assuming the ratings are correct a 1kw Fischer will output the same energy and use the same electricity as a 1kw no name brand.
Fischer may well win out with their design that may more effectively distribute that heat energy, but the overall output will be the same.
It is a lot easier to check the amount of kw that an electric heater is using compared to the output of a water radiator though, so manufacturers would get caught out very quickly if they understate an electric appliance.
Absolutely right.
Snake oil sales. This is how brands lose their 'Well its a well known brand' status. Deceit. Con...
Brilliant work here fellas!
SmartPipe Plumbing: Letts call it what it is. They are lying and be done with it!!
I have long suspected this and thank the presenters for highlighting the issue.
Good for UK Radiators. I will look them up both now and in the future.
I genuinely worry for the industry and poor standards of most work. If installers cannot fit a boiler properly and to a good standard what chance do we have with heat pump installations that are far more complex ? In addition, if a boiler is fitted badly, it can to an extent be recified to a reasonable standard. However if a heat pump installation is poor, it is quite likely the lot has got to be ripped out and start again ?
For balance, there are some good installers completing excellent work... Just not enough...
So we find out that we've been lied to about radiators by people flogging us gas boilers and radiators for years, but the problem is heat pumps?
You’ll find the majority of poor boiler installations are the cheapest. If customers pay the correct money they are likely to get the correct installation. Just to clarify there are cowboys out there just like any trade.
Trading standards is one thing but why would radiators that don't give out as much heat as advertised cost you more in gas? I don't understand. All modern heating systems should be thermostatically controlled, be it with a rad stat, room stat or zone stat, or combinations of these. Having under-performing radiators simply means you can't heat up or cool down a space as quickly as you otherwise could. Does that matter very much? If you have low insulation or little heat capacity in your house (walls made of paper) then yes, it matters to how warm you get. But, if that is your situation then you need to sort your house out with insulation as it is costing you a packet because you are losing energy to outside at a very high rate. However, all else being equal, an under-performing radiator won't cause your boiler to burn more gas; your heating bill won't increase. Please, what am I missing or is this yet another example of a gross lack of education in basic science?
This whole fuss is massively missing the real problem here. If you're having to max out the heat output of your rads its a sign the building has a very high heat loss. We in Britain are failing to get on top of the issues and as a result are spending many, many more billions than necessary on heating.
Its a great shame to let a campaign group make this topic so unfashionable. We really do need to insulate Britain.
Absolutely, an under-performing radiator will not increase your gas bill. It might heat up the space more slowly and then the rad itself might cool down more slowly when the heating is turned off but it doesn't cause more gas to be burnt. It might be more likely to cause short cycling of your boiler during the heating up phase but that's not a huge problem usually. Yes, you are less likely to be able to get a heat exchange system to heat up your space to sufficient temperature with crappy rads but they won't increase your energy bill. Losing heat through a lack of insulation is mostly what will increase your bill.
Excellent video, at last the truth, all the best George Staszak Mr Combi🥰👍
I think my house is full of these radiators! This was really useful. Thanks for uploading.
Great video, thanks for the heads up, I've always suspected stuff like this goes on, especially on the designer type 👍
Ah, the perks of Brexit! Now the UK can regulate products independently - because who needs shared standards and facilities? Going solo is clearly the epitome of efficiency, especially when testing facilities are in short supply. Tackling radiator regulations is just the beginning; welcome to the world of doing it alone
Cracking video mate….. always buy from reputable outlets👍🏼👍🏼👌🏼
Cheers pal 🙌
False promises and exaggerated claims? Colour me shocked!
The last few years have demonstrated that everyone is lying all the time and that most regulators aren’t fit for purpose.
Governments, institutions, media, corporations, academics, regulators, professionals etc….
« Call on the government to do its job » 😂 good luck
this is excellent !!
Great video. I design refrigeration & HVAC systems and see many items of overrated equipment. A spotlight also needs to be shined on heat pumps. I suspect the surge of companies creating and selling their own domestic models will have created a market in which many models will be overrated. Radiators are simple devices and these are clearly being missold. Heat pumps are complicated and it's very easy to overrate their SCOP and capacity. It's going to be a mess.
always oversize you’re rads . Can always turn it down on the Trv.
there's only one petition to get this Govt to do their job, and its coming soon!
A touch of voting with your feet!
It isn’t just radiators, many things are not correctly tested or even tested at all, yet are CE or now UKCA marked.
💯
The amount of testing required depends on the type of product.
@@jam99 I was referring to things that need testing. I’ve actually designed products and had them tested.
@ngineered Sure, but you did not specify that in your comment so I was clarifying for anyone who didn't know. It is not at all obvious to the average citizen what testing applies to which product, if anything at all, unless they have specific trade knowledge in that area.
Very interesting, if unsurprising test results. However, the conclusion drawn is in my view both incorrect and misleading. Whilst it is true that it's important that the correct BTU output of the radiator is known so that it can be matched to the room dimensions, that is only one part of the output equation. The inference that is drawn is that because the output of the radiators is lower than their quoted value this is somehow costing the user money. This is a fundamental mis-understanding of how a central heating system works. If the radiator fails to convert the stated amount of energy from the hot water into heat in the room that heat is not lost. It remains in the water and means that the water returning to the boiler is hotter than it otherwise would have been. Hence, the boiler has to use less gas (or electricity if it's a heat pump) to heat the water back up to the flow temperature again. It's simple physics, energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. The 28% or whatever of the heat which is not emerging from the test radiators can't just magically disappear somewhere as the video is suggesting.
Yes, interesting that the 'trade' doesn't know what it's talking about. Anyway, gov v radiators, hardly their most pressing matter, talk about head in the sand!
Wrong. If the radiator is under sized the waterflow temperature must be increased to produce the required power output. That might be OK for a gas boiler but most certainly not for a heat pump. With heat ppumps the COP falls with increasing water flow temperature. That means it costs more to run. Proper radiator sizing is essential for heat pump systems.
The cheapness of a radiator has little to do with it. For a radiator made with flat panels and convectors it is really just a question of the area, number of panels and number of convectors. Fancy radiators such as Victorian designs will invariably be worse and should be regarded with suspicion.
Absolutely 💯 brilliant. What a scam thanks for shedding some light on this issue top marks pal 👍🏼
Glad you enjoyed it
We dont often use radiators here in NZ, but heat pumps are very popular, when i first obtained quotes some 9 years ago, one well established dealer quoted me for a large heat pump which he felt my tiny home required. A subsequent plumber felt that was bigger than necessary. His quote was several hundred dollars cheaper. I have been very happy with the second plumber's installation. The govt. here subsidies heat pumps for lower income elderly, and the practice of over quoting still goes on.
Same thing in the UK, too many of these subsidies for shite products and no oversight.
Simple answer is to oversize your radiators, no-one is losing any energy by having rads that have a lower output than spec'd, it just means your boiler isn't working as hard as it would for one with a higher output and you may have to increase the flow temp if it's not enough
If the heat out up is low then the boilers going to have to work harder for longer to get the room up to temperature as it’s not convecting enough heat in to the room. Causing you to use more energy
@@SmartPipePlumbingSeriously? If the rad loses less energy than expected, the boiler will not have to heat the water as much... energy in=energy out, nothing is lost except for losses that occur in all states due to energy leaks, aka uninsulated pipework.
@spdynamics The truth is the biggest problem and the most costly by far is the buildings heat loss to the outside. We need better building insulation not worry about rad efficiency.
@@SmartPipePlumbing the boiler won't have to work harder, because it couldn't give the heat out in the first place, meaning the flow return will be at a higher temperature and won't take as much to heat up again, but it will take longer which will cause some inefficiency. I agree it is very wrong how these companies give false specs on rads though.
@@peterswinson326 @SmartPipePlumbing
Modern natural-gas-boilers are condensation-gas-boilers. They condense the output-gasses against the return-water. That works at best when the return-water is at a low temperature. So you loose a couple of % of efficiency on your gas-boiler if the return water has a high temperature.
And If the pipes are hotter, you end up loosing more heat in the pipes that connect your boiler to your radiator. That is most likely in hallways that you don't want to heat.
Just another sign of broken deregulated Britain! Everything that comes in from abroad or even made here, with a CE mark is self-certified and guess what, no ones checking if the product meets the specifications! Back in the day we had British Standards Institute that carried out product testing but that's long gone... These small changes can have big consequences, take for example Grenfell Tower fire caused by using the wrong type of cladding...
I've been saying this for years! "Always check for the kite mark" means bugger all nowadays, sadly.
Pressed steel costs nothing, it's been a massive con for decades look at the discount you get when you have an account
Interesting, but the radiators are comparable to UKrads in actual output for the sizes as long as prices are competitive
We all know.. "Made in England" normally means crap... I've never thought it could mean high quality, the only people influenced by that label are pensioners who dont know any better.
I see that you're trying to look like broadcast television: saying things at least twice, going there in a van, unnessecarily converting things and not naming anyone. Very professional.
Any heating engineer worth his salt (and anyone who can read installation instructions ) will be aware that max output is only achieved when the radiator is piped Top and bottom opposite connections . Thank you 😂
Makes little difference.
Will send your video to our MP GRANT SHAPES !!!!
Thank you 🙌
So you’re going hope a proven con artist will do something about you being conned. Good luck with that one.
Cracking video mate, let’s equate this to new “heat pump installs” no one in this industry is singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak. And this is why combis have and will keep going on. They can overcome these poor rads with higher flow temps, as they always have got over poor system designs. Unless everything is as per specs and designed to within an inch of its life. Then they don’t simply work. But of course what do we know, we only do it day in day out.
Heat pumps are going to become the cowboy builders dreams. There going to cause so much problems for homeowners
You are absolutely right about gas boilers and flow temperatures, The problem with this is it costs more in heating bills and also drives up demand for gas, which drives up prices for everyone! People should be able to trust the heat outputs being advertised so rads can be sized appropriately.
Great thing about these companies, if you order a radiator It might have a scruff scratch or dent I complain then they always send out a 2nd for free.
If you install the first and 2nd together you might overcome the overstated heat outputs 😂😂. Obviously no need if you are ordering from UK Radiators though
Good to know but also just to add for anyone considering doing it to try their luck to get a free second one it's actually classed as fraud. Only do it if you're being genuine.
My point was to show how easy it was for a company who are ripping us off how they just sent a replacement out without the return of the damaged radiator.
I highly doubt the costs stated. Heat isn’t lost and the maximum capacity is only needed during extremely cold periods.
It’s still false advertising and that needs to be stopped but the costs seems exaggerated to me.
If the radiators are underrated a higher flow temperature is necessary to obtain the required heat output. That will increase the COP of a heat pump which translates to it costing more to run.
Bet these were all designer radiators. For standard radiators there are simple formulae giving the heat output as a function of the area, number of panels and number of convectors. You should be able to work it out for yourself given just these parameters. Designer radiators are another matter entirely.
Cutting inspections or oversight is a form of deregulation. Leave the rules in place, just don’t enforce anything.
Just see how pollution has turned our waterways into dead zones. Dumping effluent in rivers isn’t allowed but the environment agency have been defunded, so no one’s going to stop them.
I'm in the market for new radiators and have been taking the stated BTUs as gospel. What an eye-opener this video/investigation has been. Thank you guys for bringing this to light. Don't trust adverts.
Glad it was helpful!
Lets be real here it not just radiators that are over stated, your heating system, your cars or van mpg. But some how company's get away with it.
You are 100% right
Thanks 👍
No problem 👍
All rads should comply to EN 442 . Some of the rads are tested to Delta T60 and some are DT70. Therefore when installed in delta DT50 systems , do not perform. Designer rads sometimes do not even display Dt test data all.
You are correct that some rads are sold at Delta 60 or 70, but this is separate to testing. All rads are tested at multiple ratings however the standards dictate that they must be advertised for sale at Delta 50 and Delta 30, anyone that's not doing this is non compliant, so a good indication that they are probably not complying with the rest of the standards.
You are quite right of course. There shouldnt be a need for DT's of 60 and 70 except to mislead customers ?
If those outputs can be trusted a conversion factor can be applied to DT 30 or 50 ? However if they are non compliant with the Dts they do state, it is unlikely the outputs can be trusted regardless ?
Please correct me if I am wrong but building regs require all radiators fittted are to DT30 anyway ? so perhaps no need for DT50 in theory ?
This with the general increase in prices are making radiators signifivantly dearer than they were a few years ago.
Thank you
Output should be specified at a range of delta T, just like they are in the Screwfix catalogue.
Good video buddy I’ve often suspected this for sometime and it’s been a long running suspicion by a few plumbers over the years .
I’ve come across this myself recently. My client spending an absolute fortune on 18 x traditional column radiators, all specified according to specific room requirements, generally 20% above spec, but a couple particularly came up short….. all of these were bought from a major UK supplier.
Please, where is the link to sign?
It’s in the description pal
If the thermal efficiency is lower, then they wont heat up a room as fast and potentially the boiler pump will be on for longer. However, the water in the pipes will be at a higher temperature than if a more efficient radiator had been installed and so the boiler will not need to heat up the water as much. So a less efficient radiator may use slightly more energy to heat up a room to the same temperature and take longer, but you have not 'lost' most of those kW of energy as the water has retained that heat energy that was not dissipated.
But the boiler will likely require condensing to hit the boilers stated efficiency, condensing will only occur if the water returning to the boiler is 54c or lower. It's a massive deal.
This is an extremely big deal when using a heat pump.
Good, informative video, is there a list of radiators you have that actually have the correct figures so people don't buy terrible radiators? Cheers
I trust company for example Stelrad Radiators has been going for a very long time 1936 my dad never had problems in any of the houses he had central heating put in with Stelrad Radiators, I'm looking at their K3 range now as an upgrade, the classic series have been in my home for nearly 14 years ❤👍 no problems whatsoever you pay for what you get & thats the best British Steel Radiators in my opinion ❤👍
K3 radiators with the wall same area will perform almost identically regardless of the manufacturer.
Nonsense. If the radiator is inefficient at radiating the internal heated water, the same water returns to the heating unit at an elevated temperature, REDUCING the power needed to maintain that constant temperature in the central heating unit . Yes, the room will be cooler, but the input heating power is also reduced. There is no increase in heating costs. The efficiency of a resistive heating element is 100 percent, there are no VA losses. If the radiator exhibits a thermal efficiency of 50 percent, this is reflected into the primary heat source also as a 50 percent reduced thermal load, the input power will also reduce 50 percent.
The point is that the room heat loss needs to be met in order to bring he room to temperature, if radiator heat outputs are overstated, it results in undersized radiators, so in order to meet the rooms heat loss requirements the boiler flow temperature needs to be increased which results in more energy being used.
@@ukradiators Nope, wrong. There is no added fuel cost, electric or otherwise. If the room suffers excessive heat loss, fix the thermal insulation, NOT increase the heating. You may lose an installation profit, but the customer will thank you many times over.
@@dayleedwards3521It's not about excessive heat loss, the rooms heat loss is what it is, may need better insulation, may not, it's besides the point. If a room needs for example 1000w and a radiator says it produces 1000w at an appropriate system temperature but In fact it only produces 750w at that temperature, the result is a room that can't get to temperature when it's cold, the options will be to increase the system operating temperature to a point that the radiator it outputting 1000w (and reduce the efficiency of the system), be cold, or replace the radiator. We know that people won't accept being cold, the other 2 options have a cost. What you seem to be saying is that there is no need for heat loss calculations and system design temperature is irrelevant as 1000w is 1000w however you get it, which is untrue. Systems are able to produce energy more efficiently and at lower cost when done at lower temperatures. You can't maintain these lower temperatures if rads are undersized and still sufficiently heat the home.
@@ukradiators Sorry, but I take issue with this.
A simple example.
If we have a 1kw radiator that heats room to 20C then cycles say every 15 minutes, it will use 500 watt/hr. in electrons to maintain the set temperature. If we now replace with a 500 watt radiator, the cycle time will double, it needs to be on twice as long, ie, constantly to maintain the room at the same 20C. In this case we again use 500 watt/.hr of electrons.
In this example the second option is probably the best , less wear on cycle switching components, a more constant room temperature, and potentially a cheaper installation. The down side possibly being a slower warmup time from dead cold. Your examples of radiator sizing has less variation than my example, and is pretty much a moot point on performance in real terms, measurement methods vary more often than manufacturers lie..... both happen though.
At no time have I said heat loss calculations are not required, as these set the size of the initial installation.
@@dayleedwards3521 Heat loss calculations determine the rate at which heat is lost which tells us how much heat energy is required to raise the room temperature to the desired level while this is happening. If that amount of energy is 1kw, then you need to provide 1kw of energy to the room, providing the room with 500w of energy for a longer amount of time is not the same thing, as this assumes that no heat energy is being lost, which it is. If radiators are undersized (which is what happens when heat outputs are overstated) the only way to compensate for the lack of heat energy being produced is to raise the temperature of the system, however by doing so, you reduce the efficiency of the system, as to produce the same amount of energy at a higher temperature requires more fuel to be burned, hence the drive to lower temperature systems.
It's difficult for me to stay on top of these comments as this video is not on our channel, if you want to discuss further please send me a DM on instagram @ukradiators. Rob.
Normalise your audio levels guys - makes the video much more watchable!
Think i just got educated ! As a lay person my old rads were all blocked up so i purchased new, but here s the thing i purchased on size to fit where the old pipes would be an easy switch over, no other thought went into it apart from well known make and white colour. So what can i say the previous home owner had painted them all with normal gloss paint and all gone yellowish in colour so they looked a mess, overall my DIY job had improved both the look and the heat output but im now thinking i could have done better ?
Paint colour has only a minor effect on heat output.
@@rogerphelps9939👍 but thickness is a killer.
Lol, I’ve got those rads behind him giving the results. Only upstairs though as downstairs I’ve got ufh. Don’t really turn them on that much, maybe a good thing 😂😂😂
Te for the country to wake up, North Sea is depleted, gas costs are only going up, we need to spec at 50.
Triple the BTU for the radiator, that accommodates the 25% you aren't getting and future proofs it for a heat pump, this is my current thinking, would be interested if there is good reasoning why this is a bad idea
Cost
@@chester6343 I can live with that, doing it for myself in my own house
Size
I don't think you need to go as far as tripling it. That might be feasible if you are replacing a singe panel radiator with a K3 but you may well run out of wall area.
Take them to court or contact trading standards!!!
You’d think it was that easy
So i need to replace my rads soon, how can I ensure the quoted BTU is what they say it is? what also do I need to look for/check?
@UK Radiators: We recommend looking for 3rd party verification, checking if the retailer is a member of MARC or asking if you can see a test report
So not than I am BUT if i was should i request the BSRIA cert IF its a UK made radiator?? Or should I request the cert anyway because it should have been tested to be sold and installed in the UK?
As long as you don't run the pipes outside there is no heat loss. A problem is that a lot of heat goes directly into the wall. I know people with reflector between the radiator and wall.
Since I realise that a whole country can't be wrong in such a trivial matter I assume there is more to the story? Where does the energy come from?
If radiators are undersized then boiler flow temperatures end up being increased to compensate. This burns more fuel and drives up energy demand/prices!
If you have to run the system hotter/longer to compensate for reduced output then you burn more gas
The problem disappears into insignificance when you look at the bigger picture and realise how poorly insulated British buildings are. We need to enforce high standards of insulation as this is what's costing people many, many billions more on heating bills. In fact a well insulated building shouldn't require any significant heating system.
Sadly, due to a campaign group, the subject has become very unfashionable.
So the school of yes that size should do seems to be more accurate than a so called measured output one.
It’s so dumb, promote amazingly efficient condensing boilers, but then force them to run like a 1970s baxi.
because of old rads?
The point exactly, this man gets it !!
So it sounds like we should be deducting 30% ish from the stated output on all these cheap rads?
Basically that’s what it should like
It's not about price. There are expensive rads out there with overstated outputs and cheaper ones with legitimate tested outputs. You just need to look for verification, Declaration of performance or ask to see a Test report.
So, how can we prove to the retailer that our radiator isn’t performing as advertised?
There isn’t really to be honest
@@SmartPipePlumbing I bought a very expensive chrome vertical radiator to heat a large kitchen area. We worked out we needed 5000 BTU’s and the spec of the radiator was 6500 BTU’s so we thought happy days, nice and toasty and we could control it with a TRV but it’s not big/hot enough to heat the space, the temperature in my kitchen is always cool and struggles to get over 18 degrees C. I’m sure, as your brilliant video suggests that this radiator isn’t putting out anywhere near the capacity it states in the specification. I would remove it and take it back to the retailer but I can’t prove it’s inadequate and not pumping out 6500 BTU’s 😔
Just need to look at RUclips advertisements to see blatant lies.
💯
Ok I understand that they shouldn’t be stating an inaccurate heat output however where does the energy go if not released by the radiator? It stays in the rest of the heating system the boiler reaches temperature and stays at temperature longer thus using less gas. If your radiator is blasting out heat the boiler needs to burn more gas to maintain the target temp inside the loop.
The point is that the room heat loss needs to be met in order to bring he room to temperature, if radiator heat outputs are overstated, it results in undersized radiators, so in order to meet the rooms heat loss requirements the boiler flow temperature needs to be increased which results in more energy being used.
You just get a smaller delta T across the radiator. The only way to get the required power output is to increase the flow temperature. That is very bad for heat pumps because thay perform best with low flow temperatures. The COP goes down with increasing flow temperature.
This information comes initially directly onto the installer as the the good are not fit for the purpose and for the end user it is cheaper to recourse to the installer but usually prohibitive costs to reproach the manufacturer. Until legislation is tightened and upheld nothing will change regrettably it is the case of the buyer beware very sad state of affairs ..so can't trust anybody except BSRIA incredible testing facility for all things HEVAC
Very interesting video but I think I am missing something. First of all I strongly believe that there should be a level playing field as regards complying with the law is concerned and companies should not be allowed to quote figures without evidence. However if I install a radiator whos quoted BTU output is overstated by 30% then surely the issue is only that potentially it is too small for the room concerned, although I would be suprised if plumber/heating engineer accurately specifies the heat demand to this level of accuracy. If it understates the BTU output then it means that heat is returned to boiler, rather than given up to the room, and less gas energy will be required to bring the water temperature back up to the setpoint flow temperature. In other words, there is no efficiency loss (in converting gas energy to heat energy in a room) and it does not cost the consumer extra energy/money. Am I missing something?
From an efficiency point of view you're right but efficiency isn't the only issue. If the installer calculates the heat loss in a room based on manufacturers (over)stated BTU output at a certain temperature, then the radiator will simply be too small to hold the room at the desired temperature. However, it keeps the cost of the job down, and the lowest quote gets the job, often as not. Also, I am skeptical whether the average installer collects all the data needed to get an accurate result anyway.
@MAMDAVEM
Modern natural-gas-boilers are condensation-gas-boilers. They condense the output-gasses against the return-water. That works at best when the return-water is at a low temperature. So you loose a couple of % of efficiency on your gas-boiler if the return water has a high temperature.
And If the pipes are hotter, you end up loosing more heat in the pipes that connect your boiler to your radiator. That is most likely in hallways that you don't want to heat.
@@reallyme3573 those are good points. I had missed the point about return water temperature . Every 3 deg C temperature above 54 deg C in the return water temperature would result in a loss of 1% boiler efficiency.
Nice well made video boys, Ive started fitting better quality rads after finding the cheap ones tend to be made from poor quality thinner materials and just about last as long as the guarantee then pop a seam.
can you also do a video on COP for heat-pumps and airco's ?
can you also do a video on noise-levels for heat-pumps and airco's ?
The claims from these companies are ridiculous.
Any link to a good website that has BSRIA tested radiators for sale, I'm looking for a vertical radiator.
Ukradiators
@@SmartPipePlumbing Thanks bud
The discrepancy is (probably) caused by plumbing Bottom Bottom Opposite Ends (BBOE). Most radiators in Europe are installed Top Bottom Opposite Ends (TBOE) which is more efficient and how a radiator's BTU is calculated. Much more important are the Delta figures for the BTU calculation. A modern compliant central heating system should have a flow temperature of 55º or less. Deltas of 20 and below are increasingly common, showing BTU calculations at Delta 50 is an anathema. The UK plumbing trade is living proof dinosaurs exist.
Output at flow temperatures of 40 degrees or less should be specified because this is how they have to be used in an efficient heat pump system.
@@rogerphelps9939 absolutely right. Even combi boilers can (and where possible should) be run at these lower temperatures, saving money and the environment.
The variation calculation, for those that don't know, is to multiply the radiator's output at Delta 50 by 0.3 to get Delta 20; or 0.21 to get Delta 15; or 0.12 to get Delta 10.
Sizing and flow temperatures is not an easily applicable science as there are too many variables. A small bedroom in southern UK in a reasonably insulated house might need 350 watts of energy to heat it. A 600mm x 600mm type 21 panel radiator should put out 850 watts at Delta 50, but only 250 watts at Delta 20.
To achieve a level of comfort with the existing radiator, to keep the bedroom at 20º would be to set the flow temperature at 45º a Delta of 25.
As a rule we should all over size our radiators by 30% as the installation cost variation is nominal. Plus have calculations for sub 40º flow temperatures available for purchasers, yes @rogerphelps9939
And a Combi boiler needs more efficient rads. Scandal.
Btu vibes are strong here x
The installer is responsible not the manufacturer as the radiator doesn’t have any output until it is installed.
Please make that make sense
@@SmartPipePlumbinghe can't
So what brand do you recommend for radiators?
Uk radiators
Is this why these are never as hot as a standard radiator???
More than likely, tends to be the more you spend on them the better they are
There are similar issues with standard panel rads too, just depends on the brand, some do it right, some overstate as they know it makes the rad look "more powerful".
@@SmartPipePlumbing Not the case! I've heatlossed rooms for customers who wanted a "particular" designer type rad, thats pretty pricey. They supplied rad.
They often struggle to heat the rooms................................. Nothing new, buyer beware.
@@julianhawker7672 unfortunately you are right, can't rely on price as an indicator. You can check for verification of heat outputs though and advise customers to do the same.
Not naming and shaming means I switched this off straight away. if they were tested on site by that company and you fail to notify us of names this is nothing more than clickbait.
So is not the Local Council allowed to prosecute? This used to be available years ago. The truth is that the vendors are frequently people who read the labels as you and I. 25% overstatement as an average rather indicated that there is a consistent miscalculation. So what is the formula and has the period over which the consistency is measured been changed. The size of the misstatements is such that some has changed and the question that should be asked on an investigation basis is what. If it is happening on radiators could it be happening on boiler outputs or heat pumps as well? That there is a problem with radiators you have proved but that is not the end of the story. I feel sure there is something further. Finally it is interesting that there is reversion here to BThU which was a unit that went into decline some years ago and a metric unit was substituted. Is there a basic foul up with interpretation and conversion?
Further research shows that a BThU is the raising of 1 lb of water from 39F to 40F presumably at sea level. So as many people struggle with metric and there are FOUR metric conversions available depending on alternative units used it is hardly surprising that the figures are in error. Nobody but the Americans now uses Fahrenheit hand a number sites merely record that that raising of temperature is 1 degree which is an error as the rate of rise will alter to where it is on the scale. So we have many foreign radiators calculating by conversion numbers that are often tiny to complete large value calculations. Today people do this by computer but they are only as good as the programme input. Years ago we used slide rules, now don’t yawn, but we had to be most careful to put the point in the right place so you were always checking what you had done. Now if the factory making initial tests and calculations is sitting at an elevation of thousands of feet all the results will be for nothing as water heats at a different rate. I think that may well be the answer probably because manufacturers will look at test data and make a similar product out of broadly similar materials and think the result will be the same and merely wave their reference tables at you. Few manufacturers actually have testing facilities they economise by equivalency. If you go to some countries with copy cat manufacturing policies then the errors can multiply enormously!
There is it’s called trading standards
No ones policing it until someone reports it, they shouldn’t be allowed to do it in the first place
100% agree mate trading standards should be making sure this doesn’t happen but it’s like everything else with the government they blame it on cost
@@olympusplumbingheating5027 yeah unfortunately trading standards won't act unless they get enough complaints and people don't know it's happening. Boiler flow temperatures get increased to compensate for the undersized rads and people just don't know that the rad is undersized. Our petition calls on the Department for Business and trade as well as the department for net zero to conduct a full investigation. Please sign it, would really appreciate your support! Link is in the description.
How do you know what you are buying is genuine or not. If companies are telling porkies, who do you believe.
Exactly we should be able to trust these companies
Why does this cost the customer money on their heating bills? Where do you think the heat is going?
So the radiators aren’t heating the room correctly meaning it’s taking longer for the room to get to temperature
@@SmartPipePlumbing but dont we set our boilers to temperatures, so if the heat stays in the pipe the boiler will be doing less work? As i understand it, plumbers need to be telling customers to turn boilers down so they actually condense instead of sending all the heat out of the pipe in the wall. That might make a bigger difference.
A lot of plumbers are well I know I am now trying to get all customers to set it at 55. Yes we do set the temperature at the boiler but this is about the heat the radiator is convecting to heat the room up. If you’ve got that rooms trv set at 3 it will take longer to get to temperature and shut off compared to a radiator that was sized correctly
@@kiblamsthe problem is that you will have sized radiators to provide sufficient output at an efficient system design temperature like you have stated, but if you later find out that the rads output was overstated, you won't get the energy required at that temperature. Only options at that point are to either increase the flow temperature and lose efficiency in order to get the required output out of the rad, or replace the rad, both of which have significant cost.
I really can’t see the point in them overstating it🤔 if they have a range of all different size rads then they’re trying to sell u a smaller rad which is less money for them🤷♂️
So you calculate the specs to heat the room. And you have two options:
You can buy an expensive radiator from brand X or a 30% cheaper and 30% smaller radiator from brand Y, with the same output specs.
Which one would you choose ?
@@reallyme3573 depends how green u are I suppose🤔 I for one have been here long enough now to not believe everything I’m told or read when it comes to someone trying to sell something🤷♂️
shame didnt link the orignal, would of like to watch it all in one go tbh.
Link is in the description
You should name and shame, to encourage them to behave.
Top notch plagiarism. Even took the thumbnail. Just fantastic 👏
Well since they sent me to video them self and asked me to I don’t quite think it is 😂
As honest as the Tories. If you vote for no red tape you get no red tape.
Lmao you say Tories but every party is the same, all lies, promise you everything and deliver nothing
@@azza1793 I don't think they're completely but similar. Tory Blair and steer calmer offered and very little difference to the Tories
Did you send them back for a refund as they misinformed you of output?
It's like buying a Audi but the engine is a Ford..
Couldn’t of put it better myself 😂
Name the websites
those probably are chinese counterfeit watts, lol
MY guy needs to blink hes creeping me out haha
😂😂 that me you're taking about? I actually never realised, I'll take that on board 😅
@@ukradiators haha I was watching it and was like is he deliberately not blinking 🤣 Thank you for the video! very informative and will be ordering from yourselfs from now on!
is this an advert?
No it’s making awareness kid the problem and asking people to sign the petition
Why so many interruptions? we know as you stated from the start, please stop interrupting.
🙌
It doesn't cost the home owner any more to run , output is related to the input at the boiler , same amount of gas used just takes longer to radiate the heat
Might be OK for gas but definitely not for a heat pump.
If a cheap radiator that's half a big again (as what they advertise will work) is cheaper than an expensive one, you still get all the efficiency (and more) than you would from spending more on the expensive one.
It's all irrelevant.
If your boiler puts 60 degrees into your pipes, it all ends up in your house.
It has nowhere else to go.
Well, yes, the boiler will soon get up to temperature , but it won't heat the house without adequately sized rads. My heating is governed by the room thermostat, not the water temperature.
@@longjonwhiteThe pipes containing the heat are all in your house.
The heat has to go somewhere.
It goes into your house. It has nowhere else to go.
Wrong. Seems you haven't heard of heat pumps.
@@rogerphelps9939Are we talking about some edge-case heating device?
No.
So I'm not wrong.
STOP. This does NOT affect the efficiency of your system. All the heat from your boiler still ends up in your house. If your radiator outputs less than stated the heat, not dissipated into the room is still in the pipes and inside the house and will keep circulating till the thermostatic valve turns it off. Putting larger radiators in, does not make your system more efficient, it just takes it less time to transfer the heat before the valves shut.
The only issues are:
1. comparing radiators, one that is 30% less output than stated is 30%less value than an accurately rated one. It would be daft to pay twice the price for a the 30% difference. The sensible approach would be to go up a size if you don’t trust the supplier.
2. The balance of how long different rooms take to heat up if you use different makes of radiator.
3. How long you have your boiler running to get the same heat into the house.
Remember that choosing the size of radiator in the first place is not an exact science, but depends on the owner, room usage, insulation, thermal air currents etc. etc.
I wish firms were accurate and honest, we are assuming the guy in the video is. ( and he lied about it costing efficiency) But I don’t want the price of all radiators to double because of even more regulation and money to pen pushers and ‘test facilities’.
Wrong. I suggest you learn about heat pumps.
@@rogerphelps9939 I’m an engineer, I know about the underlying physics and about heat pumps. What about heat pumps do you think contradicts any of my assertions?
Please don't leave a radio on in the background. Also tell the person which camera to look at so they do not look the wrong way and have the side of their head filmed. Always know which camera is on and recording.
Who's your father, who's your father, who's your father referee!?! You 'ant got one, you're a bastard, you're a bastard referee!
Not sure that’s how it goes 😂
@@SmartPipePlumbing Tee-hee! Back in the day, I heard this a few times at Elland Road. Got a right crack off my father when I joined in though 😂
@@dannybowden5296 😂😂 it was the only time I was ever allowed to swear in front of my dad while at the football 😂
@@SmartPipePlumbing Happy days! My Dad didn't usually mind me joining in at the footy but he wasn't right impressed on that occasion.
I'm shocked at how gullible professional plumbers are. You get what you paid for, so if its cheaper, there is a reason, and its usually that its no good. With the simplicity that people can now buy cheap goods from other markets, what did you guys think? They were cheap because these suppliers were not greedy like all the big suppliers in the UK? Supply and demand made them cheaper? - duh, its compliance that costs!
Maybe its because I'm old, but I always worked on buyer beware. Marketing optimistic specification is just an easy way to get sales, and many non UK suppliers have worked out that UK compliance has, quite ironically, made many in the industry naive!
No. Cheap radiators are fine. You can calculate heat output at a particular flow temperature from the wall area and how many panels and convectors it has. The fancy designer radiators are the culprits.
This could cost you your business, if you had fitted a Rad for me and I see this video it would be at your cost to come and change it asap as it was YOU who sold a fake. I hope you have DEEP pockets and long arms. Good luck.
You say this like it’s my fault, I’ve only been aware of this recently and it’s something that needs to change. I will be working with any customers that have this problem.
@@SmartPipePlumbing It's not working with you should say but paying for any work undertaken if the customer ask for the change of rad/rads. You then in return go back to your supplier and do the same or go to court to get your cost back. I wish you luck but it's the only way to stop this.
@@IWANASLAPTHAT honestly mate, the way to stop this is enforcement of regulations. Other industries have enforcement, there is no reason that ours shouldn't. This has been going on for a LONG time, so if what you were saying was correct then it would have sorted itself out already. Please sign the petition, we would really appreciate your support 🙏
If you are not naming suppliers you are helping no one.
Why not name the companys. Pointless video without naming.
They will all be designer radiator suppliers. There are formulae for working out the output of standard radiators for a given flow temperature and all standard radiators will be pretty much the same.