Very cool in depth break down. Can we get one for the newest Lyrik too? Don’t think I’ve ever seen as in depth one like this with damper curves etc. I know charger 2.1 has lighter compression than grip2 so I wonder where it is now in comparison to this new grip2.
Hi Steve. Great content! I like low amounts of compression most of the time but i do like to crank up the LSC and HSC when the trail conditions demand it. The range of the HSC is exactly why I would spend extra money on a damper over one with fixed HSC. I suspect you have much more to share on the air spring curves and look forward to the tuning possibilities with the transfer port and pos/neg volume ratios. I have enjoyed your Luftkappe in my Fox 36 and it has helped me appreciate the different variations in spring tune and realize the tune can be rider preference/abilities but also bike set-up specific too. You are a great resource for understanding these complex products but also in getting more enjoyment out of them! I am very greatful. Cheers!
Fantastic video, and now I understand why I can run my HSC fully closed without my hands suffering intense pain, and I’d agree that for aggressive riders it’s under damped. I still think the fork rides fantastic, and I believe that the performance is a step up from the 36
Amazing video. I always thought CSU creek was between the stanchion and the crown, not the steer tube and crown. They say you learn something new every day but it's more like 10 new things if you watch these videos!
I don't know for sure where the creaking comes from (it may be both interfaces or it might be just one), but if I had to make an educated guess, I'd be looking at the steerer first since it's the higher loaded and less supported interface. But it's possible too that because it's a much thicker tube, the relative surface motions are smaller than the stanchion/crown interface. Fox, RS etc have structural test labs that mean they will have answers to that, which I don't.
You can check easily if you have a creaking fork, just remove the wheel and spread the legs a bit, if it creaks (mine does) it's the lower leg interface thats making noise, if it doesn't- it's probably the steerer tube interface.
@@VorsprungSuspension Spent a while researching this after having several creaky fox CSU's come thru the shop. It's almost always the steerer/crown interface that causes creaking. The cause as I understood it is basically due to poor quality of anodizing/coating on the steerer or crown; a bit of raw aluminum/steel get exposed to each other when the steerer is pressed into the crown. This eventually creates a very tiny bit of galvanic corrosion (aluminum oxide) in the interface. Since aluminum oxide is harder than aluminum or steel, it makes a grinding/creaking noise during the very tiny flex that is typical in the CSU interfaces. Basically, like getting a bit of sand in your teeth and getting that noise when it gets crushed between them.
@CHELSKI9 If you (or customer) is lucky and within 1 year of purchase date, send it out for warranty. Otherwise, the best fix is to buy another and hope it doesn't come back for a while. I think some aftermarket companies offer upgraded steerer replacements as a service. Don't know about that. Some people have had success with inverting the fork and letting some Loctite 290 penetrate through the interface, as a temporary fix. I just tried the same thing but with "wax and tar remover" instead of the 290, read about that on a forum somewhere. I still need to get out and ride to be sure, but it seems to pass the parking lot stoppie test.
I recently got Ext Era. So far no long ride on it or settings testing. It has a beefier crown and the crown race goes on the crown, so load is spread better. I defenitly could feel the difference in stiffness and less stiction. So initial impressions are great. I will see how the Era performs. Have you looked into Era yet? The fox 36 sounded horrible, it was a pre used fork, but I had it since Nov 2019, it got creaking while turning, and slamming front wheel, doing stoppies, endo, fakies, so now I have a quiet fork but will see if it too will get noisy or stay quiet.
Rad video as always dude. It would be rad to see a similar analysis of the Manitou Mezzer too. If I am not mistaken they are aimed at similar applications and similar platform. And ...underdogs are always fun :)
i have a brand new 38 performance fork that does not have the bleeder buttons for letting the air out so you have to manually unscrew the bolts that are in the place where the buttins go. I also thought there was no need for the bleeder buttons but today when i took off the bolts to install my mudguard i heard air coming out of both sides and the result of releasing the air was so dramatic i actually had to add pressure to my air spring to get it back to where i wanted it. Keep in mind this fork was brand new and traveled across several states and possibly even from overseas where my bike was shipped from so there might have been a large difference in pressure from where they were initially sealed up at the factory to where i live when i released the pressure. Pretty cool tho. I am most definitely ordering the bleeder buttons to install on my fork so i can equalize the pressure on a regular basis.
Thanks for the great video, would be great to see the same one on the new 38 Grip X2 and a comparison with dyno data. Hopefully you guys offer your own cartridge, upgrade or tune one day.
Without playing the video again I think the minimum levels were about the same so you shouldn't notice any difference, and it'll be worse for anyone heavier or faster.
@@dougr550 correct that the minimum levels are about the same, but the air spring system is a step forward so he'd still expect a better feel all told.
Most of the time it's not a problem, and this fork wasn't excessively greased. Just occasionally someone in a factory (and this isn't brand specific) seems to think that dipping the entire shaft assembly into a vat of grease is the best way to do it.
You can find many of those if you Google, mostly for the most popular stuff, but still. There are many tuners on the internet that publish them for arguments sake.
Hey Steve, thanks for putting out very informative videos. Back in spring, I bought a used Fox 38 Performace Elite which I did a lower leg service on. When I pulled out the lowers, bath oil only leaked from the damper side and none from the air side which I thought was weird. So I decided to take the air spring out. As soon as I pulled the air spring out, that's when oil started to come out. The bath oil on the air side seemed to be trapped between the uppers and the air shaft. Is this normal? Did another lower leg later in the summer just to see if it happened again and it did.
Interesting to watch this after reading Jared Graves detailed setup on Instagram yesterday. Before this I was very surprised to see 2 clicks from closed on HSC but given the damper range this makes sense. I have a Grip2 VVC damper in the mail to upgrade my 2019 GRIP (not 2) and at 95kg, I'm interested to see how this shakes out. Previously ran a 2019 Grip2 around 9 clicks out from closed.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts after you receive the new damper, I know I now run twice as much high speed damping as is allowed by this thing, and I weigh under 60kg geared up while being a semi aggressive rider.
@@piciu256 First 3-4 rides, 21' Grip2 is great. I'm definitely on the firm end of the HSC but still plenty of adjustment range for my preferences. I'm running 4 clicks from closed on HSC and I can't see the need for any more. I can see how the range of adjustment is smaller but it's still ample for my needs. I usually run my setups pretty firm with not a ton of ramp, weigh ~215lbs and race open/expert enduro for size reference.
Would love to see that. We know Fox stock dampers can be improved, but have high hopes for Manitou. By personal experience, both my McLeod and Mattoc blow away my DPS and 34 GRIP.
Great analysis and spot-on. Wonder how long that tube-in-tube airspring idea's been around in that form. Looks remarkably similar to the Luft Fusion spring other than the perforated seal head, which I assume is just a re-allotment of space for longer travel.
I wonder, how does (does it really), the "leaf spring" system differ from just preloading the shim stack directly with the turn knob, like for example Manitou does (and it works really well) apart from the knob turning more smoothly? Doesn't it behave a bit like a poppet, as in regressive damping curve?
It doesn't specifically preload the stack, it just stiffens the leaf spring which is acting in series with the stack at little or no preload (in fact on the rebound assembly it has float, ie negative preload). It's a decent system in my opinion.
Vorsprung Suspension What is the/is there any benefit of the VVC system on the compression side vs the 2020 system at a comparable compression damping level?
@@VorsprungSuspension So the VVC system having little to no shim preload causes the suspension to be more sensitive at the beginning of a stroke, right? I understand shim preload to require a threshold pressure in damping fluid for the fluid to pass through, which translates to less sensitivity at the beginning of a stroke. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Would be nice to see how the grip damper compares to the grip 2, does it have the same compression limitations ? And then the question, why did Fox choose to do this, on paper it really looks bad. Maybe they wanted it to use more of it's travel for lighter riders ? At what rider weight would you start noticing these limitations ?
That compression curve may be actually what that air spring needs. Could be a change on the filosofy? If the air spring gives enough support, why lose energy with a damper? Just a thought... But the system, how thay change the leverage on the valves... Is just genius. Lof ur vids.
Will the air spring inner sleeve make designing a coil conversion easier or harder? Does seem it will allow returning to an air spring if one chooses to.
@@VorsprungSuspension I wonder if it'll also make tuning/adjusting the negative air spring easier, possibly a new sleeve with a different location for the equalization port?
@@TheBlackthornPlan most definitely yes, you are able to move the port now, changing the whole stanchion would be a bit harder of course ;) You could move the port effectively by changing the position of piston on shaft in relation to volume though, and that's what they did those past few years.
Cool and very informative, thanks Steve! Have you chance to look in to 2021 36? Does it replicate 38's air spring design with this additional air volume for lowers or keep the "old" one?
I find I need to run a little less air pressure than recommend. Up around 25+% sag (190lbs ) for it to feel good on the washboard stuff while still supportive in corners jump faces and steeper terrain. HSC/LSC =open. HSR/5 in from open, LSR/2 or 3 in from open.
So, with your comment on the joint between crown and steer tube being the weak link for flex.... what are your thoughts on the deep crown/steer overlap of the new EXT Era fork.
how come your lowers have a light bushings? I disassembled my friends FOX38 to install one of your smashpots and it had black bushings inside with super black foam rings which i managed to clean to a reasonable condition. (fork was used aprox . 2-3 months from new) maybe you have some insights/ experience on them black bushings and a black colour on a foam rings? thanks
Hey. Have you dynoed these more recently? Fox seems to have added preload on the vvc adjuster to have more adjuster effect, but ruined it at the same time. I found a workaround with spacer/shim swap within the adjuster, now its actually like externally adjustable shim stack.
Coming a little late to this video. I have to admit your statement on the steerer tube being the most compliant structural member had me scratching my head. I have never done the analysis but my initial take is that the steerer tube is a fully supported member by the headset bearings with a short cantilevered section where the load is applied. The stanchions are long cantilevered sections with the load applied at the very tip of the unsupported end. It seems like increasing the stanchion diameters does have a chance of increasing the overall structural stiffness. I agree that the crown race is likely a stress riser but that really isn't a statement of elastic structural stiffness. I do enjoy your videos and I am no means a bike suspension expert. Am I off base here? Thanks
I can't stop thinking why not a crown and steerer tube made in one piece? is it that hard to make? the insertions can also be longer, problem solved in terms of durability as well.
Maybe, but with the tunnel underneath, no slots at all are needed. And spiral slots are basically what's on brake rotors (for purposes unrelated to what happens in a fork), but we know rotor slots add to pad wear despite their benefits in that usage.
So most flex(or weak point) comes from the steer tube? Doesn't the headset help support the steer tube stiffness? This could explain headset bearing issues
Strange/too bad about those dyno number on the GRIP2 VVC. I always have the image of Fox in my mind of providing fork adjustment range to absolutely unusable levels-like the rebound full damped on the old open bath forks, you could practically count the number of seconds it took back to full extension.
That might not have been as silly as it looks-- for heavier riders who have to put high pressure in the air spring, you need a lot more rebound damping. So damping that looks ridiculous for a small rider might just be in the slightly over damped range for a 250lb rider.
Quick Google, Charger 2.1 RC2, HSC almost closed (-2 clicks, lsc adjusted) There is more range at your disposal. forums.mtbr.com/attachments/shocks-suspension/1245472d1554424278-charger-2-damper-modifications-charger-rc2-sweep.jpg
You shouldn't tune by upping oil viscosity unless you want to change low speed adjuster range. Shim stacks don't care about oil viscosity unless it's so high that the ports choke, which is obviously not ideal.
Commenting here as it's your latest video: What do you think of the cartridge inside the Formula Selva and do you have any experience with Neopos? What's you thought on them?
I truly appreciate your competence & the technicality of your suspension videos & find it fascinating as well as infinitely useful in practical application. Have you ran the 2022 FOX 38 GRIP2 on the dyno yet? I'm interested in seeing if the compression variability is more similar to the 2020 or 2021 models, a blend of the two, or of it's gone in a totally different direction. I'm 202lbs riding a Trek Rail 5 E-Bike 160mm travel & currently run my '22 38 Factory @102psi with the H/S full open & L/S 12 out...my guess is that they raised the entire curve. Do you have any insight?
Awesome video, for a fat bloke on an ebike would you reccomend this or the zeb? I found the 36 chassis too flexy for my liking and whilst I appreciate the improvements fox has made, if it still rides like a jackhammer I'd consider the "plusher" Zeb, or just wait till the seccus is done ;)
I think it's probably a step in the right direction, however there is also a reason steerers are pressed in not a one-piece junction like that, and that is that it prevents cracking from the immense stress riser that is otherwise present at that junction. Until it's proven out in the field (or the lab - I don't have access to their structural testing protocols or anything) then it still remains an unknown.
My 38 fork is new and it’s creaking like crazy i had to send it back to warranty I still don’t know where that noise is coming from or what’s causing it but the noise is definitely coming from the fork
Maybe the “softness” of the HSC damping range is because no one is using the full range available in 2020 GRIP2’s. Even the heavy hitters pros use it almost fully open, they just put volume spacers for ramping the final mm of travel. There’s no sense to put unusable level of regulations on a fork.. MHO.
The range might be unusable, but the new range is definitely too little, just going by the older RC2 not being enough range for some riders. I can tell you that looking at this graph, it would not be enough even for me- and I weight under 60kg, while riding aggressively, I much prefer a damped feel than a lot of progression, just for the fact that this way the bike is way more stable and imo works in more situations with no adjustments needed.
Piotr Sulej and then Richie Rude with his 200 pounds and one of the most aggressive riders out there is using the new damper for half a year with few complains. I’m going to test one first. Is hard to believe that Fox released an unrideable fork
@@jesusdortega they done it before dude, no reason why they wouldn't repeat their mistakes, apart from mayby learning from them ;) Also different rider preferences- I definitely prefer to crank my high speed for big impacts, I'm not very strong though and prefer a more stable fork, some peopple prefer a very progressive spring for some reason rather than using the damper more, I'm definitely not one of those peopple. The pros might also be running some sort of a custom tune, we don't know.
@@jesusdortega it's highly likely that Richie is running a custom tuned stack. What the EWS guys require is not usually representative of the damping range required to satisfy the broad spectrum of average riders out there. Hence they don't tune the production units to suit the outliers like Richie.
Gareth Norwood the VVC is advertised as the “custom tune” killer, so something definitely is going on there. Let’s wait for the pinkbike or Enduro Mag reviews.
Oil flows even with no grooves at all, just not if the fork is not moving, normally you have to cycle the fork when upside down to lubricate the foam rings, here you just flip it for a minute.
The theory behind hydrodynamic lubrication is that oil is supposed to be the film between hard surfaces that slide past each other, to prevent actual contact and therefore wear. In order for that to work, the oil film (which is dragged onto the sliding surfaces by the no-slip condition, creating a boundary layer at each surface) has to be able to withstand the contact pressure whilst remaining thick enough to exceed the surface roughnesses of the two surfaces, and in order for that to be the case, there has to be no path of less resistance for the oil film to move into, otherwise it can't generate enough pressure to keep the two surfaces sufficiently apart.
@@VorsprungSuspension Exactly why a worn car tyre aquaplanes! Just out of interest, I just rebushed my 2016 Fox 36, the originals were all grooved but the replacements only had grooves in the lower bushings.
Another great video Steve. 2 questions for you... 1. Given that you said the most significant limiting factor in improving the stiffness of the fork is the Crown/Steerer interface, and the that 36 is adequately stiff for the majority of riders, do you think the added weight penalty of the 38 is a price worth paying over the new 2021 36? 2. Do you think the new features on the 2021 36 and 38 offer any significant improvement over my 2018 36 with the Luftkappe and Fractive tuning for FIT4 damper I already have? Thanks
1. Fox have published numbers on stiffness (which I would take at face value, stiffness is a straightforward thing to measure) claiming it's 17% or so stiffer front-to-rear than the 36. That's not a huge amount, but I don't think the additional stiffness is the main reason to go for this fork personally - I think the improved air spring is a better argument. 2. At this stage it does not appear so, but I haven't investigated the 36 yet. While I believe the damper is the same as the 38, they have made chassis and air spring changes that I haven't assessed just yet.
Speaking from the perspective of a 97 kg rider from Southern BC, the 36 has had an inadequate CSU to steerer interface for years - the trails around here just kill them. I've run 2017, 2018 and 2019 36 forks with 150mm to 170mm of travel and each one has had the CSU "fail" within 12 months. I have many friends with similar experiences. The 38 and the updated steerer look like a response to this widespread issue.
looks like they've managed to get the Airspring so linear and predictive that you A) don't run into that ramp-up, just use later part of the travel to even get full travel problem, where People try to stay away from endstroke harshness with more LSC B) don't have that vague feeling hole in the Midstroke that people try to fix with compression.
Im not pretending to know anything about damping, but in a fox video Jordi said vvc got rid of the harsh feeling on high speed damping, so might be something in it.
The VVC technology stands to be able to offer more HSC without harshness (in the way that it successfully does that with rebound damping), but no fork has harshness from high speed compression damping when there isn't any HSC.
Mayby and mayby not. The air spring is potentially better for light riders than the old design, but the damper is tune is way too soft even for me, an I'm definitely a light lider @under 60kg geared up. I run around 200N@1m/s in my fork and it feels pretty well, you saw the chart for this fork- it's barely reaching 100N at that speed, I used to run a lighter setup and it definitely felt underdamped, blowing through travel too easily. I'm a fairly aggressive rider though, if you ride more defensively that tune might suit you well enough, it's just that there is not enough range to have an option really.
To be clear- the setup I mention is an universal one, pretty compliant for comfort but giving enough support, for jumping for example Id like quite a bit more high speed damping, but this perticular fork doesn't have an external adjustment for that.
Piotr Sulej thanks mate. What do you mean this particular fork doesn’t have high speed damping? I thought this had high and low speed compression adjustments? Or do you mean the range doesn’t allow you to dial in enough?
@@GallantLee I meant my fork which I mention I have 200N@1m/s dancing force setup, doesn't have external high speed adjustment, just a low speed knob which closes or opens the orifice.
Just a point of reference, that I, a lightweight rider, probably wouldn't be happy with this fork, for the lack of adjustment range. For less aggressive/ more comfort oriented riders it will be ok, but then the 38mm stanchions are pretty much redundant.
I'm not sure if I got it right. The amount of compression damping on the 2021 model is lower than the 2020? So what does it means? And as simple mortals can we really feel the difference? I'm actually running a 2019 lyrik and don't feel anything at all when I play around with compressions damping (even when it's fully closed!!). Thanks for your answer, cheers ✌
How much does stanchion flex binding in the bushes affect 34 and 36's especially for heavy riders? Hard to measure i"m sure. I've read that modern forks having thinner stanchions to save weight at the cost of flex. Would've thought the 38 would be better in that regard.
Binding was and always will be an issue with telescoping forks, no way around that. It's not a matter of stanchion size really, it's just that the bushings are relatively close together for the forces acting on them with the head angle, braking and what not. Just make sure the fork is nice and lubed with good oil and the binding becomes irrelevant. I don't see any binding issues, but I'm a lightweight rider (under 60kg) and in my experience the general frinction in the system is more of an issue ;) From what I heard the heavier you are the less it matters, and it does make sense.
want to buy an emtb. XL 193cm 108kg.(not fat) thinking scott genius or new haibike mostly up and down mountains(slow) what suspention set up do you recommend. regards from Spain
So apparently the amount of damping force on the 2021 fox 38 is pretty low. But how would you consider this for lightweight (under 65Kg) and less aggressive riders than pros? Could this work nicely? I mean, my actual 2019 Lyrik doesn't work at all (no difference when fully closed or opened whether HSC, LSC). By the way if you've got an idea about the charger 2.1 damper 🤔
Hi Steve, thank you for sharing your amazing knowledge regarding (bike) suspension. Would you be interested in doing a technical review of something out of the box like for example the Structure Cycleworks SCW1?
Just got a bike with a 38 Factory and the fork is amazing. So far cant fault it whereas I really struggled with excess progressively or ramp up or lowers binding in Factory Grip 2 36s, if the damping seems off on the dyno all I can say ...so what - the fork is so good. Perhaps really right tunes suit air forks or Fox in particular?
do you guys have any videos showcasing your own monarch rc3 plus tractive system? I'm having fat tire farm in portland install one on my monarch and i'm really excited because ive heard absolutely INCREDIBLE reviews of the system. people have said it turns one of the most mediocre shocks in the world to one that rivals a coil's sensitivity but with the progression of an air shock!
While it's good to hear people are that stoked on the Tractive tuning, even I'm a little wary of that level of hyperbole because that's a hell of a big claim to live up to! Will it make your Monarch Plus feel significantly better? Yes, absolutely. You still have the stiction/friction of an air spring as compared to a coil, but you get dramatically improved support and compliance regardless. Unfortunately we don't currently have any videos about it.
Great content, as always! A bit surpised at the much lower damping levels. I know the hsc adjusters aren't doing exactly the same thing, but at what setting (roughly) on the old grip2 would correspond to maximum damping on the new one?
My 2019/20 Grip 2 36 factory has a distinct ramp point about 110/120 mm into travel where the curve changes radically - its not something that I can tune out - Im guessing thats the much higher compression ratio that you detailed compared to new 38
@@chrissinclair3136 Undo the top cap of the Smashpot and compress it from there - if it binds up you should be able to feel it. If not, you most likely just want a softer spring. The compression ratios of the 36 aren't relevant when it's running a coil, that's just an aspect of the air spring.
Fox do a shame upgrade if you go to them in England completely rebuild your shim stack but these are 38 performance elite they do have issue's compared to a normal fox factory 38! Someone jsut done a 50 hour rebuild on one he's not impressed I run a 38 170mm with fit4 damper love it!
input from 3 months of personal experience 180lb rider, 50 degree temps, 170mm 2021 Fox 38 factory with factory emtb tune that came on my 2021 commencal meta power 29 signature size L, 100psi, 2 volume spacers: waaaaaay too much rebound damping even with HSR & LSR dialed all the way out--doesn't pop off jumps at all, frequent sketchy nose dive trajectories/landings. it's awful, every other fox fork i've had (2014 pike, fox40 grip2) had useable rebound adjustment range from super springy to very slow/packing down. to make it worse, the compression behavior is as described in the video--nowhere near enough, with HSC & LSC dialed all the way in small 3' drops result in harsh bottom out. they got the emtb tune damper completely wrong imo.
I’m not sure how it works for other riders, but in my case LSC/HSC was never closed more than 25%. What if this is more common than we know and damping curve setup was put in on purpose to give customers more useable range for compression settings? I’m not saying that’s the case, rather thinking out loud… Pro and hard core amateur riders have their suspension tuned no matter what comes out of a factory.
I'm sure it was entirely deliberate. The thing is, so was the prior Grip2 tune, which had 4x the range, and the RC2 before that which had 2x the range of the current one. Was the old Grip2 tune (at maximum) 400% stiffer than necessary? If so, why was it 2x as stiff as the prior generation one? It's not like the most open setting is any more open than it used to be - the usable range hasn't increased in any direction, just the adjustment range has decreased. Speaking as someone who is currently riding a VVC Grip2 damper, I can't tell the difference between the HSC fully open and fully closed once on the trail. Max LSC/HSC to min LSC/HSC is barely - and I do mean barely - noticeable.
@@VorsprungSuspension You’re absolutely right - those changes going back and forth make very little sense. It’s OK while still in a dev process, but I’d expect final products to be more consistent with their setup, especially if it’s only one model year difference. On the other hand - less range with the same number of clicks gives more granularity. I have pretty much the same situation going on with my Float X2 shock in 2022 Levo. LSR can be adjusted from very fast to rather fast. Setting it up so the shock comes back really slow is just not possible. Fox 38 seemed pretty much normal, but now you got me into puzzling mode :) Nice catch, thanks for sharing! ❤️
@@VorsprungSuspension First thanks for this awesome and insightful video! I have been searching all over the interwebs to see if I had an issue with my 2021 34 Grip2 that came on my new tallboy. I can't tell any difference between fully open and fully closed for hsc/lsc and thought I may have an issue. Seems this is indeed normal for 2021 model year grip2 so thanks for confirming you notice barely anything as well. Did you say that fox confirmed to you that this is normal? Here's what I got from them btw "For your damper concern, You will not feel a significant difference in a full open or close setting. Grip dampers are designed to be more open and will not feel as firm as a FIT damper. if you close it all the way you will get more damping and it will fell firmer than a fully open setting." Well I don't feel my fork getting any firmer in full closed so for now I just run it at factory suggested settings and leave it alone. So many clicks, so little benefit it seems.
The new Zeb Deb+ airspring piston appears to be a Vorsprung Luftkappe. Sure as heck hope Steve got some benefit from that! Be kind of an awkward review in any case.
Now this is the quality-kind of video we're all looking for.
Department of Redundancy Department.... Gold
Sounds like an opportunity for Vorsprung to offer an improved damper tune.
Very cool in depth break down. Can we get one for the newest Lyrik too? Don’t think I’ve ever seen as in depth one like this with damper curves etc. I know charger 2.1 has lighter compression than grip2 so I wonder where it is now in comparison to this new grip2.
Very much enjoyed this. I would be interested to see a similar video about the manitou mezzer.
Ok, simple question to Vorsprung: what 160-170 fork, according to you, is the best engineered today?
Hi Steve. Great content! I like low amounts of compression most of the time but i do like to crank up the LSC and HSC when the trail conditions demand it. The range of the HSC is exactly why I would spend extra money on a damper over one with fixed HSC. I suspect you have much more to share on the air spring curves and look forward to the tuning possibilities with the transfer port and pos/neg volume ratios. I have enjoyed your Luftkappe in my Fox 36 and it has helped me appreciate the different variations in spring tune and realize the tune can be rider preference/abilities but also bike set-up specific too. You are a great resource for understanding these complex products but also in getting more enjoyment out of them! I am very greatful. Cheers!
Fantastic video, and now I understand why I can run my HSC fully closed without my hands suffering intense pain, and I’d agree that for aggressive riders it’s under damped. I still think the fork rides fantastic, and I believe that the performance is a step up from the 36
Amazing video. I always thought CSU creek was between the stanchion and the crown, not the steer tube and crown. They say you learn something new every day but it's more like 10 new things if you watch these videos!
I don't know for sure where the creaking comes from (it may be both interfaces or it might be just one), but if I had to make an educated guess, I'd be looking at the steerer first since it's the higher loaded and less supported interface. But it's possible too that because it's a much thicker tube, the relative surface motions are smaller than the stanchion/crown interface. Fox, RS etc have structural test labs that mean they will have answers to that, which I don't.
You can check easily if you have a creaking fork, just remove the wheel and spread the legs a bit, if it creaks (mine does) it's the lower leg interface thats making noise, if it doesn't- it's probably the steerer tube interface.
@@VorsprungSuspension Spent a while researching this after having several creaky fox CSU's come thru the shop. It's almost always the steerer/crown interface that causes creaking. The cause as I understood it is basically due to poor quality of anodizing/coating on the steerer or crown; a bit of raw aluminum/steel get exposed to each other when the steerer is pressed into the crown. This eventually creates a very tiny bit of galvanic corrosion (aluminum oxide) in the interface. Since aluminum oxide is harder than aluminum or steel, it makes a grinding/creaking noise during the very tiny flex that is typical in the CSU interfaces.
Basically, like getting a bit of sand in your teeth and getting that noise when it gets crushed between them.
@CHELSKI9 If you (or customer) is lucky and within 1 year of purchase date, send it out for warranty. Otherwise, the best fix is to buy another and hope it doesn't come back for a while.
I think some aftermarket companies offer upgraded steerer replacements as a service. Don't know about that.
Some people have had success with inverting the fork and letting some Loctite 290 penetrate through the interface, as a temporary fix. I just tried the same thing but with "wax and tar remover" instead of the 290, read about that on a forum somewhere. I still need to get out and ride to be sure, but it seems to pass the parking lot stoppie test.
I recently got Ext Era. So far no long ride on it or settings testing. It has a beefier crown and the crown race goes on the crown, so load is spread better. I defenitly could feel the difference in stiffness and less stiction. So initial impressions are great. I will see how the Era performs. Have you looked into Era yet?
The fox 36 sounded horrible, it was a pre used fork, but I had it since Nov 2019, it got creaking while turning, and slamming front wheel, doing stoppies, endo, fakies, so now I have a quiet fork but will see if it too will get noisy or stay quiet.
Best, most informative, and void of marketing BS vid on that fork. Thanks.
Rad video as always dude. It would be rad to see a similar analysis of the Manitou Mezzer too. If I am not mistaken they are aimed at similar applications and similar platform. And ...underdogs are always fun :)
The thing is, it's not his market though.
Agreed, although there might not be as much to improve tune wise as there is with Fox ;)
i have a brand new 38 performance fork that does not have the bleeder buttons for letting the air out so you have to manually unscrew the bolts that are in the place where the buttins go. I also thought there was no need for the bleeder buttons but today when i took off the bolts to install my mudguard i heard air coming out of both sides and the result of releasing the air was so dramatic i actually had to add pressure to my air spring to get it back to where i wanted it. Keep in mind this fork was brand new and traveled across several states and possibly even from overseas where my bike was shipped from so there might have been a large difference in pressure from where they were initially sealed up at the factory to where i live when i released the pressure. Pretty cool tho. I am most definitely ordering the bleeder buttons to install on my fork so i can equalize the pressure on a regular basis.
Thanks for the great video, would be great to see the same one on the new 38 Grip X2 and a comparison with dyno data. Hopefully you guys offer your own cartridge, upgrade or tune one day.
Proper engineering insight.Great video.
Brilliant! Thanks for tearing it apart and sharing with us. I have my 2019 fox 35 grip 2 HSC bassically wide open, so this would work better for me.
Without playing the video again I think the minimum levels were about the same so you shouldn't notice any difference, and it'll be worse for anyone heavier or faster.
@@dougr550 correct that the minimum levels are about the same, but the air spring system is a step forward so he'd still expect a better feel all told.
Great video Steve. I'm surprised you didn't say anything about the excessive grease on the air piston taking up air chamber volume :)
Most of the time it's not a problem, and this fork wasn't excessively greased. Just occasionally someone in a factory (and this isn't brand specific) seems to think that dipping the entire shaft assembly into a vat of grease is the best way to do it.
NON-emotional, in depth, awesome analysis 👌🏼
Thanks, bro 🙏🏼
Thanks Steve. Much appreciated!
The part with damping curves was particularly interesting. Do you have more of these for different forks?
You can find many of those if you Google, mostly for the most popular stuff, but still. There are many tuners on the internet that publish them for arguments sake.
So basically the forks aren't as harsh during high speed compressions, in comparison to last year's? Sounds prefect.
Thanks for the video Steve I really enjoyed it. I always love graphs
Hey Steve, thanks for putting out very informative videos. Back in spring, I bought a used Fox 38 Performace Elite which I did a lower leg service on. When I pulled out the lowers, bath oil only leaked from the damper side and none from the air side which I thought was weird. So I decided to take the air spring out. As soon as I pulled the air spring out, that's when oil started to come out. The bath oil on the air side seemed to be trapped between the uppers and the air shaft. Is this normal? Did another lower leg later in the summer just to see if it happened again and it did.
Fantastic video Steve.. really well analyzed and explained.
When are you going to make a vid about the new 2021 Fox X2 with VVC?
Excellent video.
Thanks, everything I'd been waiting for from you (on this fork)
Interesting to watch this after reading Jared Graves detailed setup on Instagram yesterday. Before this I was very surprised to see 2 clicks from closed on HSC but given the damper range this makes sense. I have a Grip2 VVC damper in the mail to upgrade my 2019 GRIP (not 2) and at 95kg, I'm interested to see how this shakes out. Previously ran a 2019 Grip2 around 9 clicks out from closed.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts after you receive the new damper, I know I now run twice as much high speed damping as is allowed by this thing, and I weigh under 60kg geared up while being a semi aggressive rider.
@@piciu256 First 3-4 rides, 21' Grip2 is great. I'm definitely on the firm end of the HSC but still plenty of adjustment range for my preferences. I'm running 4 clicks from closed on HSC and I can't see the need for any more. I can see how the range of adjustment is smaller but it's still ample for my needs. I usually run my setups pretty firm with not a ton of ramp, weigh ~215lbs and race open/expert enduro for size reference.
Was there an improvement for the damper from the compression side after the video?
29er 38 is a lb heavier than lyric and mezzer. would be interesting to see the same tear down of the mezzer fork
Would love to see that. We know Fox stock dampers can be improved, but have high hopes for Manitou. By personal experience, both my McLeod and Mattoc blow away my DPS and 34 GRIP.
@@macvos Manitou fixed the bushing issue that they were knocked for a few times in their mezzer, after setup, it's everything you think it would be.
Great analysis and spot-on. Wonder how long that tube-in-tube airspring idea's been around in that form. Looks remarkably similar to the Luft Fusion spring other than the perforated seal head, which I assume is just a re-allotment of space for longer travel.
To increase comp, can you just get a thicker leaf spring on the VVC? Or am I misunderstanding how it works?
I wonder, how does (does it really), the "leaf spring" system differ from just preloading the shim stack directly with the turn knob, like for example Manitou does (and it works really well) apart from the knob turning more smoothly? Doesn't it behave a bit like a poppet, as in regressive damping curve?
It doesn't specifically preload the stack, it just stiffens the leaf spring which is acting in series with the stack at little or no preload (in fact on the rebound assembly it has float, ie negative preload). It's a decent system in my opinion.
Vorsprung Suspension What is the/is there any benefit of the VVC system on the compression side vs the 2020 system at a comparable compression damping level?
@@VorsprungSuspension So the VVC system having little to no shim preload causes the suspension to be more sensitive at the beginning of a stroke, right? I understand shim preload to require a threshold pressure in damping fluid for the fluid to pass through, which translates to less sensitivity at the beginning of a stroke. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Love your stuff. Can we please get an installation video for your new Secus. I am looking to install one soon to my Marzocchi Z1 bomber.
Would be nice to see how the grip damper compares to the grip 2, does it have the same compression limitations ? And then the question, why did Fox choose to do this, on paper it really looks bad. Maybe they wanted it to use more of it's travel for lighter riders ? At what rider weight would you start noticing these limitations ?
Any update on the compression differences?
That compression curve may be actually what that air spring needs. Could be a change on the filosofy? If the air spring gives enough support, why lose energy with a damper?
Just a thought...
But the system, how thay change the leverage on the valves... Is just genius.
Lof ur vids.
Would be good to breakdown and compare the new 36 and 38. Most riders dont need the 38 but may benefit from some of its features other than stiffness?
Will the old 2019 fox 36 grip 2 fit inside the new fox 38?
Yes
Will the air spring inner sleeve make designing a coil conversion easier or harder? Does seem it will allow returning to an air spring if one chooses to.
You are correct. It doesn't change much from the coil conversion point of view, it's one new part.
@@VorsprungSuspension I wonder if it'll also make tuning/adjusting the negative air spring easier, possibly a new sleeve with a different location for the equalization port?
@@TheBlackthornPlan most definitely yes, you are able to move the port now, changing the whole stanchion would be a bit harder of course ;) You could move the port effectively by changing the position of piston on shaft in relation to volume though, and that's what they did those past few years.
Cool and very informative, thanks Steve! Have you chance to look in to 2021 36? Does it replicate 38's air spring design with this additional air volume for lowers or keep the "old" one?
It would be interesting to see an update to this video with the new x2 damper in 2024
Awesome. But, that complete lack of actual adjustment range makes me sad.
Any chance you could test and strip an MRP ribbon damper?
Can you guys do a Fox 38 Smashpot installation video? That would be so very helpful too.
will u check new DHX2 and Float X2 ?
Awesome vid man! As a lighter rider that compression tune looks good to me. But holy hell Fox WTF. (Does Fox have a dyno or do they wing it still?)
Awesome video Steve, thanks for the insights
How would you compare this fork to a DVO ONYX sc???
I find I need to run a little less air pressure than recommend. Up around 25+% sag (190lbs ) for it to feel good on the washboard stuff while still supportive in corners jump faces and steeper terrain.
HSC/LSC =open. HSR/5 in from open, LSR/2 or 3 in from open.
So, with your comment on the joint between crown and steer tube being the weak link for flex.... what are your thoughts on the deep crown/steer overlap of the new EXT Era fork.
Is the 38 27.5 180mm Float air shaft compatibile with a 38 29 170 Factory fork? I want to increase the travel on the 29 fork. Thanks
how come your lowers have a light bushings? I disassembled my friends FOX38 to install one of your smashpots and it had black bushings inside with super black foam rings which i managed to clean to a reasonable condition. (fork was used aprox . 2-3 months from new) maybe you have some insights/ experience on them black bushings and a black colour on a foam rings? thanks
8:40 nice video effect, like you've got a crack at left dropout )
Hey. Have you dynoed these more recently? Fox seems to have added preload on the vvc adjuster to have more adjuster effect, but ruined it at the same time. I found a workaround with spacer/shim swap within the adjuster, now its actually like externally adjustable shim stack.
Coming a little late to this video. I have to admit your statement on the steerer tube being the most compliant structural member had me scratching my head. I have never done the analysis but my initial take is that the steerer tube is a fully supported member by the headset bearings with a short cantilevered section where the load is applied. The stanchions are long cantilevered sections with the load applied at the very tip of the unsupported end. It seems like increasing the stanchion diameters does have a chance of increasing the overall structural stiffness. I agree that the crown race is likely a stress riser but that really isn't a statement of elastic structural stiffness.
I do enjoy your videos and I am no means a bike suspension expert. Am I off base here? Thanks
I can't stop thinking why not a crown and steerer tube made in one piece? is it that hard to make? the insertions can also be longer, problem solved in terms of durability as well.
Re: slotted bushings, they should spiral the slots.
Maybe, but with the tunnel underneath, no slots at all are needed. And spiral slots are basically what's on brake rotors (for purposes unrelated to what happens in a fork), but we know rotor slots add to pad wear despite their benefits in that usage.
Now that you've had considerable time with it - can it be revalved to increase max high speed compression ?
So most flex(or weak point) comes from the steer tube? Doesn't the headset help support the steer tube stiffness? This could explain headset bearing issues
Strange/too bad about those dyno number on the GRIP2 VVC. I always have the image of Fox in my mind of providing fork adjustment range to absolutely unusable levels-like the rebound full damped on the old open bath forks, you could practically count the number of seconds it took back to full extension.
That might not have been as silly as it looks-- for heavier riders who have to put high pressure in the air spring, you need a lot more rebound damping. So damping that looks ridiculous for a small rider might just be in the slightly over damped range for a 250lb rider.
How do the damping curves compare to other manufacturers like Rockshox? That does seem like significant change
Quick Google, Charger 2.1 RC2, HSC almost closed (-2 clicks, lsc adjusted) There is more range at your disposal. forums.mtbr.com/attachments/shocks-suspension/1245472d1554424278-charger-2-damper-modifications-charger-rc2-sweep.jpg
Piotr Sulej that chart has no labels or legend. What are we looking at?
Do you offer custom tunes or upgraded dampers for sale? I just purchased a 180mm 38. Will see how it rides before looking into mods.
"department of redundancy department" deserves more recognition than it got.
videos like this amaze me
@Vorsprung Suspension
Hi can you do a video about your brand new upgrade the Secus Fork Air Spring Upgrade Kit?
That would be awsome thanks :-)
Any plans for a Luftkappe for the fox 38?
Thanks Steve!!!
Going from a 5wt to a 10wt make enough of a difference? I always up my damper oil at by 25%. Works great with my rhythm smashpot 👍
You shouldn't tune by upping oil viscosity unless you want to change low speed adjuster range. Shim stacks don't care about oil viscosity unless it's so high that the ports choke, which is obviously not ideal.
Commenting here as it's your latest video:
What do you think of the cartridge inside the Formula Selva and do you have any experience with Neopos? What's you thought on them?
I truly appreciate your competence & the technicality of your suspension videos & find it fascinating as well as infinitely useful in practical application. Have you ran the 2022 FOX 38 GRIP2 on the dyno yet? I'm interested in seeing if the compression variability is more similar to the 2020 or 2021 models, a blend of the two, or of it's gone in a totally different direction. I'm 202lbs riding a Trek Rail 5 E-Bike 160mm travel & currently run my '22 38 Factory @102psi with the H/S full open & L/S 12 out...my guess is that they raised the entire curve. Do you have any insight?
please do the new RS ZEB Ultimate RC2.1 :)
Awesome video, for a fat bloke on an ebike would you reccomend this or the zeb? I found the 36 chassis too flexy for my liking and whilst I appreciate the improvements fox has made, if it still rides like a jackhammer I'd consider the "plusher" Zeb, or just wait till the seccus is done ;)
I am curious on your thoughts of the EXT crown design given it was one of your biggest critiques on the 38?
I think it's probably a step in the right direction, however there is also a reason steerers are pressed in not a one-piece junction like that, and that is that it prevents cracking from the immense stress riser that is otherwise present at that junction. Until it's proven out in the field (or the lab - I don't have access to their structural testing protocols or anything) then it still remains an unknown.
My 38 fork is new and it’s creaking like crazy i had to send it back to warranty I still don’t know where that noise is coming from or what’s causing it but the noise is definitely coming from the fork
Maybe the “softness” of the HSC damping range is because no one is using the full range available in 2020 GRIP2’s. Even the heavy hitters pros use it almost fully open, they just put volume spacers for ramping the final mm of travel. There’s no sense to put unusable level of regulations on a fork.. MHO.
The range might be unusable, but the new range is definitely too little, just going by the older RC2 not being enough range for some riders. I can tell you that looking at this graph, it would not be enough even for me- and I weight under 60kg, while riding aggressively, I much prefer a damped feel than a lot of progression, just for the fact that this way the bike is way more stable and imo works in more situations with no adjustments needed.
Piotr Sulej and then Richie Rude with his 200 pounds and one of the most aggressive riders out there is using the new damper for half a year with few complains. I’m going to test one first. Is hard to believe that Fox released an unrideable fork
@@jesusdortega they done it before dude, no reason why they wouldn't repeat their mistakes, apart from mayby learning from them ;)
Also different rider preferences- I definitely prefer to crank my high speed for big impacts, I'm not very strong though and prefer a more stable fork, some peopple prefer a very progressive spring for some reason rather than using the damper more, I'm definitely not one of those peopple. The pros might also be running some sort of a custom tune, we don't know.
@@jesusdortega it's highly likely that Richie is running a custom tuned stack. What the EWS guys require is not usually representative of the damping range required to satisfy the broad spectrum of average riders out there. Hence they don't tune the production units to suit the outliers like Richie.
Gareth Norwood the VVC is advertised as the “custom tune” killer, so something definitely is going on there. Let’s wait for the pinkbike or Enduro Mag reviews.
does oil not flow through the grooves in the bushings anyways? I always thought that was the point.
Oil flows even with no grooves at all, just not if the fork is not moving, normally you have to cycle the fork when upside down to lubricate the foam rings, here you just flip it for a minute.
The theory behind hydrodynamic lubrication is that oil is supposed to be the film between hard surfaces that slide past each other, to prevent actual contact and therefore wear. In order for that to work, the oil film (which is dragged onto the sliding surfaces by the no-slip condition, creating a boundary layer at each surface) has to be able to withstand the contact pressure whilst remaining thick enough to exceed the surface roughnesses of the two surfaces, and in order for that to be the case, there has to be no path of less resistance for the oil film to move into, otherwise it can't generate enough pressure to keep the two surfaces sufficiently apart.
@@VorsprungSuspension Exactly why a worn car tyre aquaplanes! Just out of interest, I just rebushed my 2016 Fox 36, the originals were all grooved but the replacements only had grooves in the lower bushings.
Another great video Steve.
2 questions for you...
1. Given that you said the most significant limiting factor in improving the stiffness of the fork is the Crown/Steerer interface, and the that 36 is adequately stiff for the majority of riders, do you think the added weight penalty of the 38 is a price worth paying over the new 2021 36?
2. Do you think the new features on the 2021 36 and 38 offer any significant improvement over my 2018 36 with the Luftkappe and Fractive tuning for FIT4 damper I already have?
Thanks
1. Fox have published numbers on stiffness (which I would take at face value, stiffness is a straightforward thing to measure) claiming it's 17% or so stiffer front-to-rear than the 36. That's not a huge amount, but I don't think the additional stiffness is the main reason to go for this fork personally - I think the improved air spring is a better argument.
2. At this stage it does not appear so, but I haven't investigated the 36 yet. While I believe the damper is the same as the 38, they have made chassis and air spring changes that I haven't assessed just yet.
@@VorsprungSuspension Thanks Steve. Your No BS assessment and feedback is always much appreciated.
Speaking from the perspective of a 97 kg rider from Southern BC, the 36 has had an inadequate CSU to steerer interface for years - the trails around here just kill them. I've run 2017, 2018 and 2019 36 forks with 150mm to 170mm of travel and each one has had the CSU "fail" within 12 months. I have many friends with similar experiences. The 38 and the updated steerer look like a response to this widespread issue.
@@VorsprungSuspension looking forward to hearing about those too :). I get a lot of "traction" out of watching your videos.
looks like they've managed to get the Airspring so linear and predictive that you A) don't run into that ramp-up, just use later part of the travel to even get full travel problem, where People try to stay away from endstroke harshness with more LSC B) don't have that vague feeling hole in the Midstroke that people try to fix with compression.
Im not pretending to know anything about damping, but in a fox video Jordi said vvc got rid of the harsh feeling on high speed damping, so might be something in it.
The VVC technology stands to be able to offer more HSC without harshness (in the way that it successfully does that with rebound damping), but no fork has harshness from high speed compression damping when there isn't any HSC.
@@VorsprungSuspension well said my friend ;)
LOL. "We got rid of the harshness by getting rid of the damping!" ;)
Thanks for going through this! Would this low compression curve mean potentially it would be quite suitable for lighter riders?
Mayby and mayby not. The air spring is potentially better for light riders than the old design, but the damper is tune is way too soft even for me, an I'm definitely a light lider @under 60kg geared up. I run around 200N@1m/s in my fork and it feels pretty well, you saw the chart for this fork- it's barely reaching 100N at that speed, I used to run a lighter setup and it definitely felt underdamped, blowing through travel too easily. I'm a fairly aggressive rider though, if you ride more defensively that tune might suit you well enough, it's just that there is not enough range to have an option really.
To be clear- the setup I mention is an universal one, pretty compliant for comfort but giving enough support, for jumping for example Id like quite a bit more high speed damping, but this perticular fork doesn't have an external adjustment for that.
Piotr Sulej thanks mate. What do you mean this particular fork doesn’t have high speed damping? I thought this had high and low speed compression adjustments? Or do you mean the range doesn’t allow you to dial in enough?
@@GallantLee I meant my fork which I mention I have 200N@1m/s dancing force setup, doesn't have external high speed adjustment, just a low speed knob which closes or opens the orifice.
Just a point of reference, that I, a lightweight rider, probably wouldn't be happy with this fork, for the lack of adjustment range. For less aggressive/ more comfort oriented riders it will be ok, but then the 38mm stanchions are pretty much redundant.
Please make a RS Zeb breakdown
I'm not sure if I got it right. The amount of compression damping on the 2021 model is lower than the 2020? So what does it means? And as simple mortals can we really feel the difference? I'm actually running a 2019 lyrik and don't feel anything at all when I play around with compressions damping (even when it's fully closed!!). Thanks for your answer, cheers ✌
How much does stanchion flex binding in the bushes affect 34 and 36's especially for heavy riders? Hard to measure i"m sure. I've read that modern forks having thinner stanchions to save weight at the cost of flex. Would've thought the 38 would be better in that regard.
Binding was and always will be an issue with telescoping forks, no way around that. It's not a matter of stanchion size really, it's just that the bushings are relatively close together for the forces acting on them with the head angle, braking and what not. Just make sure the fork is nice and lubed with good oil and the binding becomes irrelevant. I don't see any binding issues, but I'm a lightweight rider (under 60kg) and in my experience the general frinction in the system is more of an issue ;) From what I heard the heavier you are the less it matters, and it does make sense.
Steve, I'm a big fan of your channel. Any chance you can make a video on Lefty forks?
RC2 36 rider. Probably not worth the upgrade?
want to buy an emtb. XL
193cm 108kg.(not fat)
thinking scott genius or new haibike
mostly up and down mountains(slow)
what suspention set up do you recommend. regards from Spain
I wanted to see what's inside, didn't even hope for your analysis :)
So apparently the amount of damping force on the 2021 fox 38 is pretty low. But how would you consider this for lightweight (under 65Kg) and less aggressive riders than pros? Could this work nicely? I mean, my actual 2019 Lyrik doesn't work at all (no difference when fully closed or opened whether HSC, LSC). By the way if you've got an idea about the charger 2.1 damper 🤔
Hi Steve, thank you for sharing your amazing knowledge regarding (bike) suspension. Would you be interested in doing a technical review of something out of the box like for example the Structure Cycleworks SCW1?
Gonna need a smashpot for these puppies 😉
Btw do you guys sell these forks or just service?
Smashpot fitment will be available soon. We do sell them too. Email us if you're looking to purchase one.
@@VorsprungSuspension will do
Just got a bike with a 38 Factory and the fork is amazing. So far cant fault it whereas I really struggled with excess progressively or ramp up or lowers binding in Factory Grip 2 36s, if the damping seems off on the dyno all I can say ...so what - the fork is so good. Perhaps really right tunes suit air forks or Fox in particular?
do you guys have any videos showcasing your own monarch rc3 plus tractive system? I'm having fat tire farm in portland install one on my monarch and i'm really excited because ive heard absolutely INCREDIBLE reviews of the system. people have said it turns one of the most mediocre shocks in the world to one that rivals a coil's sensitivity but with the progression of an air shock!
While it's good to hear people are that stoked on the Tractive tuning, even I'm a little wary of that level of hyperbole because that's a hell of a big claim to live up to! Will it make your Monarch Plus feel significantly better? Yes, absolutely. You still have the stiction/friction of an air spring as compared to a coil, but you get dramatically improved support and compliance regardless. Unfortunately we don't currently have any videos about it.
@@VorsprungSuspension Yah i was kind of taken back by the reviews i heard of it too! but only time will tell i guess.
Excellent break down sir!
Great content, as always! A bit surpised at the much lower damping levels. I know the hsc adjusters aren't doing exactly the same thing, but at what setting (roughly) on the old grip2 would correspond to maximum damping on the new one?
Very close to fully open.
No Zeb breakdown or comparison?
The Zeb is a bigger, heavier Lyrik. Unlike the 38, there is nothing new or particularly different inside it. Doesn’t warrant a video IMO.
My 2019/20 Grip 2 36 factory has a distinct ramp point about 110/120 mm into travel where the curve changes radically - its not something that I can tune out - Im guessing thats the much higher compression ratio that you detailed compared to new 38
Do you have any volume spacers in there that you can remove? If so, try removing them. May even need a lower air pressure to go along with it.
@@VorsprungSuspension I have a smash pot now and it still does it - I think the fork binds..
@@chrissinclair3136 that might be the lower leg ramp up, you might as well just have too high of a spring rate though.
@@chrissinclair3136 Undo the top cap of the Smashpot and compress it from there - if it binds up you should be able to feel it. If not, you most likely just want a softer spring. The compression ratios of the 36 aren't relevant when it's running a coil, that's just an aspect of the air spring.
Fox do a shame upgrade if you go to them in England completely rebuild your shim stack but these are 38 performance elite they do have issue's compared to a normal fox factory 38! Someone jsut done a 50 hour rebuild on one he's not impressed I run a 38 170mm with fit4 damper love it!
input from 3 months of personal experience 180lb rider, 50 degree temps, 170mm 2021 Fox 38 factory with factory emtb tune that came on my 2021 commencal meta power 29 signature size L, 100psi, 2 volume spacers: waaaaaay too much rebound damping even with HSR & LSR dialed all the way out--doesn't pop off jumps at all, frequent sketchy nose dive trajectories/landings. it's awful, every other fox fork i've had (2014 pike, fox40 grip2) had useable rebound adjustment range from super springy to very slow/packing down. to make it worse, the compression behavior is as described in the video--nowhere near enough, with HSC & LSC dialed all the way in small 3' drops result in harsh bottom out. they got the emtb tune damper completely wrong imo.
I’m not sure how it works for other riders, but in my case LSC/HSC was never closed more than 25%. What if this is more common than we know and damping curve setup was put in on purpose to give customers more useable range for compression settings? I’m not saying that’s the case, rather thinking out loud…
Pro and hard core amateur riders have their suspension tuned no matter what comes out of a factory.
I'm sure it was entirely deliberate. The thing is, so was the prior Grip2 tune, which had 4x the range, and the RC2 before that which had 2x the range of the current one. Was the old Grip2 tune (at maximum) 400% stiffer than necessary? If so, why was it 2x as stiff as the prior generation one? It's not like the most open setting is any more open than it used to be - the usable range hasn't increased in any direction, just the adjustment range has decreased. Speaking as someone who is currently riding a VVC Grip2 damper, I can't tell the difference between the HSC fully open and fully closed once on the trail. Max LSC/HSC to min LSC/HSC is barely - and I do mean barely - noticeable.
@@VorsprungSuspension You’re absolutely right - those changes going back and forth make very little sense. It’s OK while still in a dev process, but I’d expect final products to be more consistent with their setup, especially if it’s only one model year difference. On the other hand - less range with the same number of clicks gives more granularity. I have pretty much the same situation going on with my Float X2 shock in 2022 Levo. LSR can be adjusted from very fast to rather fast. Setting it up so the shock comes back really slow is just not possible. Fox 38 seemed pretty much normal, but now you got me into puzzling mode :)
Nice catch, thanks for sharing! ❤️
@@VorsprungSuspension First thanks for this awesome and insightful video! I have been searching all over the interwebs to see if I had an issue with my 2021 34 Grip2 that came on my new tallboy. I can't tell any difference between fully open and fully closed for hsc/lsc and thought I may have an issue. Seems this is indeed normal for 2021 model year grip2 so thanks for confirming you notice barely anything as well. Did you say that fox confirmed to you that this is normal? Here's what I got from them btw "For your damper concern, You will not feel a significant difference in a full open or close setting. Grip dampers are designed to be more open and will not feel as firm as a FIT damper. if you close it all the way you will get more damping and it will fell firmer than a fully open setting." Well I don't feel my fork getting any firmer in full closed so for now I just run it at factory suggested settings and leave it alone. So many clicks, so little benefit it seems.
Inside the zeb coming soon ?
The new Zeb Deb+ airspring piston appears to be a Vorsprung Luftkappe. Sure as heck hope Steve got some benefit from that! Be kind of an awkward review in any case.