Exactly. If Jiraiya knew that Nagato was controlling 6 bodies he would have fought differently. Even Nagato admitted that if Jiraiya knew their secret the result may have been different.
@@hiteshsharma1132especially if he knew the abilities of each body like Naruto did when fighting pain. Legit every big screwup jiraiya had in the fight is due to lack of intel
@@orochimarupr still does not change the fact that jiraya is gay and the weakest high kage level fighter in naruto😭😭😭itachi,pain,tsunade,kakashi,madara,hashirama and sasuke are the W characters tsunade,pain and sasuke are amazing characters who don't get enough credit but characters like gay jiraya and gay tobirama have so many fans
It's quite simple really. Jiraiya just suffers really badly from the Worf effect. Basicly all of his major fights serve purely to make someone else look powerfull. The narrative doesn't allow him to look good, let alone win, any of his fights, his purpose in these fights is to get his ass kicked, and thus make his opponent look powerfull cuz they defeated this legendary warrior relativly easily.
yup, and kakashi lietrally is the best example of that. Kakashi doesn't win most of his fights for the main reason that he is the master, and his students are the protagonists that need to shine more and win their fights. So kakashi is not allowed to win fights against other antagonists
That's literally almost every character in Naruto who tf is Hanzo? No one yet his word is so respected that everyone around the world dickrides the 3 mfs who stalemated him when they were young. Kurenai being stated the best genjutsu user in the leaf, do absolutely jack just for Itachi to embarrass her on her specialty. Asuma the same shite, one of the few actual jounins (not Tokubetsu jounins whatever that is), former guard of the boss of the Kage just to get slammed by the weakest mf of Akatsuki. The writing in Naruto is everything but a masterpiece.
@@jackgonahieu4999 O Jiraiya definitly isn't the only one suffering from the worf effect in Naruto, it's just that he's one of the bigger examples, being a Sannin yet failing to do much of significance on screen. But yeah, pretty much everyone who isn't Sasuke, Naruto, or a main antagonist suffers from it at one point or another.
jiraiya's death completed his character because he gave his full trust to naruto that he will bring peace to the work this is why guy should've died after using the 8th gate. even if didn't kill madara, he was still able to delay madara for naturo and sasuke to arrive fully entrusting the next generation. That would certainly make guy opening the 8th gate more impactful
Dude, Jiraiya dying is the most predictable thing there is for character progression and such. Jiraiya is one of the goats up till his death and plays as the teacher/ father figure. It gave hype to Naruto surpassing his teacher who at that point was one of the strongest characters in the show. This Is one of the most used things in writing and no that doesn't mean he is fodder. I haven't watched the video yet but Jiraiya has a fairly short list of Shinobi stronger than him. Pain was meant to be the hype because here is this villain that defeats someone who is the sole protector of the leaf and rivals any other villain such as Itachi and he just loses outright with no hope against Pain and also goes on to destroy the leaf. That was the most hyped I was by far through the whole show except the final showdown between Naruto and Sasuke or Obito VS Kakasi although that was just a staged fight by Obito
One thing I liked about Jiraiya was how he did not care about looking his age. Orochimaru made it his life's purpose to achieve eternal youth with immortality, but we all know Might Guy and Rock Lee had the true eternal youth. Tsunade did not like showing wrinkles and hid them away with her regeneration jutsu. Jiraiya did not care for his wrinkles. He only cared when his imperfect Toad Sage Mode changed his natural look.
Well I agree with Orocimaru's case. But Tsunade has an effortless way to stay fit, everyone would do the same... It is just a way to stay better, not only "look" better but feel and stay actually better. Who will deny a better quality of life if it comes with no detriment ?
@@orochimarupr I assumed the initial commenti was about the effort and dangers Orochimaru faced pre time skip and farming Sasuke to achieve extended life
It's literally powercreep... i dont get why scalers act like Kishimoto planned the powerlevels for scaling... The simple fact is that Jiraya was super strong, but after he died, characters started getting a LOT stronger automatically... IF he was written in the war arc he wouldn't get freaking speed blitzed... he'd keep up just like all the other characters could
As simple as that, but people just don't want to admit that in the long run of the series Jiraya just can't compete... the powerscaling went out of proportions and a lot of characters became background characters.
Characters didn't get "stronger automatically", like, we literally SEE Naruto train to attain Sage mode, kurama form, Kakashi getting better and faster with kamui, Sasuke attaining mankekeyo and progressively strengthening his abilities, etc.
Jiraya wasnt weak in shippuden. He didnt die to some random dude, it was pain. Pain literally fought the leaf village in its entirety and won very easily. Meaning jiraya scales to a guy who is as strong as the strongest village.
I mean, yes, but Jiraiya also said that he would die fighting against 3 of the weakest Pains. Him losing to all 6 isn’t the issue. It’s his performance leading up to that.
@@SryBut i don't think it would have made much of a difference. Guy is similar to kakashi without the 8th gate and even if 8th gate guy killed every pain, nagato still wins.
@@Bloooo95 jiraya beat 3 of the weaker pains at the same time. BUT everyone else in the leaf basically died fighting against the pains who were split up fighting solo. Kakashi actually died just fighting 2 and he was basically the next strongest leaf ninja. So jiraya isn't as strong as pain, but he's in a similar league as pain.
Especially when Orochimaru who is supposed to be the strongest Sannin got hit in presumably the same way from the same 4 tails and got literally ripped in half
You people are biased. That was kid Naruto with 4 tails. After the timeskip Naruto probably one shot that Naruto that was fighting jiraiya. orochimaru was fighting timeskip Naruto with 4 tails which means the Naruto orochimaru was fighting is stronger. Not to mention that this was the weakest version of orochimaru we ever seen since his body is rejecting him, sick( he was shown taking some medicine with Kabuto and sick enough to get obliterated by Sasuke) and on a diffirent weaker body. That was the orochimaru you people are comparing jiraiya. Nah bro jiraiya is weak
@whatwhy6349 firstly neither fought naruto so naruto power doesn't matter. What happened to jiraiya was similar to what happened to Minato. An unexpected transformation of someone you can't try to hurt. We know jiraiya was alone and successful. Orochimaru wasn't successful he had no solution. Also a healthy orochimaru was nearly one-shot by pain and itachi separately. The same itachi that said " we would both die" when referencing jiraiya and the same pain that said "if he knew our secret"
@@bhyde88 your clearly full of shit and don't know your stuff The nine tails is a amp to a user which means The more powerful the user the stronger the Amp. It doesn't matter that they didn't fight Naruto directly but it does matter that how strong Naruto's body is because of the amp. . Since kid Naruto< timeskip Naruto then apply the same multiplayer with the four tails amp then timeskip Naruto is stronger with the four tails amp. Pain and itachi would one shot jiraiya. Jiraiya was injury by a path weaker than yahiko path. It tears his arm off, imagine the yahiko path doing that. Jiraiya would be dead. The secret pain was referring to was none of the paths of pain is the true body but hiding away somewhere and if jiraiya could find the true body, he wins because nagato is very defenseless. Itachi was a secret agent for the leaf and didn't want to hurt/kill one of the leaf strongest people like jiraiya and he didn't kill anyone there when he and kisame invaded konoha. So he fooled kisame by saying that jiraiya is stronger than he actually is. Same with orochimaru, jiraiya gets one shot by genjutsu. If orochimaru is the strongest sanin and gets one shotted so does jiraiya.
Fr bruh. Dygo always talks about how Uchiha ruined the series in his analysis videos. That they got to strong, with too many asspull powerups etc. he says all this while being the biggest Uchiha fanboy 😂.
Yeah, it's a retcon. I'm confident in my belief that the series was never planned to be as powerful as it ended up becoming. Hiruzen was declared Kage-level in early Naruto, but in part two he looks like fodder, too
Eah, OG Naruto and Shippuden are almost two different shows. Jutsu's don't really matter in Shippuden, let alone Boruto. Sakura got dealt a shit hand. Tenten being able to summmon weapons should have became a mastwr summoner of animals too. Kiba should have become a wolf sage.
But I don’t think Kage level really changes throughout the series. Jiraiya is probably around as strong as the other 5 Kage and Tsunade, it’s just that they introduce so many characters far above Kage level like Hashirama, Madara, KCM Naruto, etc.
??? In part 2 he only fought against juubito and Madara and did as well against them against any of the 5 current Kate did or would’ve. If that show a 90 year old Hiruzen is still kage level idk what does
Playing devil's advocate, Jariaya went into the hidden rain for recon purposes and didn't know what he'd encounter. He had no info about how Pain and the other paths operated. For much of the fight he was trying to figure out the secrets behind them in order to get the info back to the hidden leaf. When the village is attacked the leaf Shinobi at least have a heads up on what's coming so they can somewhat prepare and even still the 6 paths did a tremendous amount of damage
@@pepballer6375so because he had a feeling he would die that means he knew what he would encounter? Just because he felt the mission was obviously dangerous doesn't mean he knew the powers of the pains lol. Your comment adds nothing
@@Enigmaticfigure I was just commenting on the he just went for retcon if that was the case he wouldn't have summon the frog and gave it the key for the seal he knew damn well he might not have made it out alive I never said he knew what he was going to encounter
I will be honest. I never even heard the notion that Jiraya was ever considered weak . I consider him rly strong and the strongest sanin IF we don't allow for Edo Tensei.
We gotta stop treating Pain vs. Jiraiya as a fight about Strength. The biggest factor in beating Pain was information, and Jiraiya was the one person who could obtain that information while still keeping his head. He lost because he lacked information. Not because he was too weak, but because he wasn't prepared for everything Pain had to offer. Anyone else at that time would also have struggled to pull it off. Jiraiya is just a victim of power creep, since he was second only to Pain at the time (Obito aside).
If you want to be technical, Kashin Koji out scales Itachi by defeating jigen and forcing out Isshiki. He used the same move to escape Isshiki that jiraiya used to escape Pain.
No jiraiya was directly stronger than pain. Pain said he wouldn't have had a chance of winning if JIraiya had knowledge on him. Manga jiraiya did much better, even despite losing an arm due to a cheap shot, he was more dominant initially against the 3 that he killed, and even after losing an arm in the manga, he still fought them for an unknown amount of time, and killed at least 1 more. If he went in with prep 1) Wouldn't have ever lost his arm 2) Would know which pain to kill 3) Would have instantly known about their vision trick and acted accordingly Jiraiya would beat Pain 100/100 times if he knew how Pain worked, as stated by Pain himself.
yeah pain also didnt know about sage mode or genjutsu which is very very important. and in most fights u go up with no information. also itachi is 2nd jiraiya 3rd
@@plavsk There's little reason to assume he didn't know about sage mode or the fact that Jiraiya had the capability of you know, using one of the main fields of jutsu. Pain literally said he wouldn't have had a chance if jiraiya went in with knowledge, not even a chance, sorry but jiraiya is stronger than pain lol. Also the genjutsu and not knowing about sage mode didn't actually hurt pain's chances cuz those 3 were revived cuz jiraiya didn't have knowledge, and he lost an arm because of thinking the fight was over cuz he didnt' have knowledge, and he still pushed pain to high or extreme diff. JIraiya >>> Pain >>> Itachi
That's cuz in actuality and practicality, the Paths of Pain is obviously a weapon. The guy controlling it, Nagato is like a weak ass cripple on life support possessing the Rinnegan, literally the eyes of a God. That's why they consider him fodder. Dude lost to a cripple on life support hiding behind his weapons
Most of the power scaling in the war arc, even though it got ridiculous at times, I could let it slide. But Kakashi using the Susanoo made me laugh my ass off when I first saw it.
Here's something I don't hear brought up much in defense of Jiraiya: Jiraiya may have only fought against 3 paths, but we know that Nagato splitting his chakra between multiple paths weakens each path, respectively. This is shown when Nagato reverse summons five paths and temporarily shuts them down to use a giant shinra tensei on Konoha. So Jiraiya fighting 3 pains was fighting against stronger versions of those pains than the ones that invaded Konoha. It's not much, but it's something.
in the manga he pretty much stomped the 3 paths, killed them, then they were resurrected and he was cheap shotted while his guard was down, losing an arm in the process, then with 1 arm against 6 pains, he literally killed at LEAST 1 more of them. Pain literally said if Jiraiya had knowledge (pain had full knowledge and prep), that Pain wouldn't have even had a chance at victory.
Conversely, it never gets brought up that Kakashi was fighting Pain while pain was simultaneously fighting on 5 other battlefields. Meaning his attention was divided, yet as soon as Pain decided to kill Kakashi, he nearly 1 tapped him. Kakashi gets more credit than he deserves for that fight(it's still impressive)
If you wanna take pre retcon into account and from part 1 only, the facts are: Kisame flat out admits he is inferior to Jiraya Itachi says the best he (Itachi) can hope for is a stalemate Both chose not to face Jiraya despite it being a 2v1 and the goal is to capture Naruto. The whole concepts of tailed beats aka needing to seal the 9 tails last is a retcon Kakashi, even in part 2 has immense respect for Jiraya and considers himself inferior to the sannin. He wondered how Jiraya’s handled pain when Kakashi could barely handle two paths and admitted he needed reinforcements. Similar to Kakashi, Jiraya’s title, skill and power is well known to many many people in the world. In part 2, Kabuto stated it’s possible to find his blood on the six paths weapons, with Obito telling him not to “push his luck” If Jiraya was fodder to these guys, Obito wouldn’t care less about him.
This is you failing to read the series with detail. Kisame makes a comment about the reputation of “The Sannin” against the seven swordsman and is concerned a Sannin might be a daunting task. Kisame then calls Jiraiya “a disappointment” upon meeting him and berates Itachi when they flee and says there was no reason to with how strong Itachi is. This, coupled with Orochimaru plainly stating Itachi is beyond him, it’s obvious Itachi’s shifty statements were supposed to be questionable.
Orochimaru says in Part 1 he wants Sasuke's body bc he can't hope to get Itachi. Orochimaru and Jiraiya have an even fight later and says while in our weakened states it's still no contest for me, meaning Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya and Orochimaru fears Itachi. Therefore, even in Part 1, Itachi is above Jiraiya.
@@Ghost-jq4ey And I'm referring to base Jiraiya in this sense, Sage Jiraiya being above base Orochimaru is fine as he has his own above Sannin form too, that being the Hydra.
What people don't realize or maybe don't want to realize, is that Kishimoto clearly intended for Jiraiya and Itachi to be on the same levels (same score on the data books between the 2, so many parallels between both back and forth and so on) but... He failed to portray that properly in the story, maybe if he got revived for the war arc things could change (they would definitely change) but as it stands it's simple not possible for Jiraiya to take on Itachi...
Kishimoto also had Orochimaru who in part 1 is stated to be relative to and even superior to Jiraiya say that “Itachi is stronger than I am”. He literally just says that. Fans should’ve known something was up when Itachi ran away lol.
Yeah but that can be explained by Itachi being a double agent and wanting to not kill anyone so even if that is a retcon, I think Kishimoto covered his bases there and explained it well
@@vernitico itachi is honestly a abd match up for jiriyah. problem with jiriyah is he is not in his full power mode of sage mode. summons are pointless because itachi amateratsu counters any summons. attempting to runaway to get to sage mode also most likely not work because itachi is all about quickly ending fights and is able to analyze situations without underestimating his opponents. he also has nod efense for tsukyomi. and itachii has susano which outright takes no damage for rasengans etc. jiriyah had a better match up vs pain only because pain held back 3 of the pains and sent his 3 weakest pains. and jiriyah had the advantage fo the rain village being a bunch of pipe lines he could hide and run in.
He let himself be killed, Pain says before finishing him in my memory "I don't understand his heart before, however, it stopped beating". To explain because a lot of people won't understand he said no to "Death" I'm coming in 5 minutes let me finish my mission. Mission that is not to kill Pain which very few characters in the Naruverse can do but to understand what his secret is. And Pain says at the end that if Jiraiya had known his secret he would certainly not be here. Also during the 2 years that Naruto trained with Jiraiya the akatsuki never tried to capture Kyubi he does not hesitate to attack entire villages to capture some Kyubi/Achibi tailed demons but an inexperienced kid Naruto with Jiraiya is no for them. If he really wanted to he would have sent 2 teams to see the whole akatsuki but knew it was useless because Jiraiya was there to protect Naruto
One thing you left out: power scale recon from part 1 Naruto to part 2. In part 1 Jiraiya, orichimaru and Minato were among the strongest but in part 2 pain, itachi, madara, Obito and other uchihas were among the strongest
@@collinleivas9605wow very nice when he literally let orochimaru attack the village and kill the third hokage the only saving grace of the village. He didn't do anything to stop Danzo. He literally couldn't prevent the death of asuma. Bro literally set sasuke up to the dark path causing him to not only kill itachi but to later destroy the leaf village and kill Naruto. What good a fucking spy is when people don't even know how the spy is.
@@mhassankhalid3774 first of all you're stupid in your assumptions, no.1 he didn't know Orochimaru attacked the village he probably didn't hear about it till afterward and regarless if he did wouldn't it look super suspicious to leaf and akatsuki alike that itachi is defending the village he supposedly dispises? Also Hiruzen is fodder than Tsunade and Jiraiya which hadn't been introduced because Orochimaur would have been demolished full power 3 v 1. All in all it was far better to leave it be than be suspected by pain and get dog piled by all the akatuski. 2. Itachi may have hated Danzo but he threatened him and basically made him do nothing for 8 years and it was basically set up to where Danzo could never assume power as long as Tsunade lived which he wasn't alive when Pain attacked. No.3 Asuma is nobody to Itachi, what does he care about him and it would just make him look that much worse if he did anything to prevent that battle. What did you want him to do murder Kakazu and Hidan. Plus he most likely knew the leaf would get revenge on the Akatsuki and hold a grudge if they killed or almost killed there own that much more. It was a better play to instigate something early on. No. 4 Itachi didn't know Orochimaru was after Sasuke let alone the sharigan all Orochimaru mentioned in their battle is that he wanted a perfect body that would link him to immortality, his tsukuyomis were to make sasuke hate him which the sharigan's strength is tied to emotion and the stronger that hate the stronger sasuke is and when he invaded the village he knew nothing about the curse mark and found out Kakashi and Sasuke were together so he left him alone knowing that the one other guy with a sharigan was teaching Sasuke and Kakashi was a world renowned shinobi who was very strong he never thought he would turn. also afterwards he made every atempt to free sasuke of orochimaru and curse mark and made him the hero that defeated the clan killer. are you stupid you act like he's all knowing reading the manga with you and can stop everything by simply knowing it without it getting in the way.
@@mhassankhalid3774it wasnt itachi job the protect the village from orochimaru tho it was only from the akatsuki and he cant do much to stop danzo, all he did was keep danzo basically caged up when he was alive same as for the akatsuki they were also caged from attacking the village, its only after itachi died danzo started doing his own shit and so does the akatsuki and as for asuma well he deserved to die because of his past, he had a bounty so thats why kakazu was desperate to kill him, asuma wasnt no good guy in the past and yes itachi did fail sasuke which is admitted to because not everyone is perfect but sasuke himself is one of the dumbest characters in the show because why tf would u want to hold a grudge on the entire leaf when majority of the people had nothing to do with the uchiha situation especially the new generation, it would make sense if he only wanted to kill danzo and the 2 elders but sasuke being cursed with dummy plot armor just took it to another level
I think most of the issue with Jiraiya power scaling boils down to people underrating Pain/Nagato, thinking that he's only a tier or two above Itachi, when in reality Pain is in a league of its own, let's me explain. If Jiraiya was retconed into being "weak" in shippuden, then Nagato got retconed into being "stronger" in the war arc to balance that out, because he was stomping KCM1 Naruto and Killer Be with ease in a 2 vs 1 battle, the battle was so one-sided that edo Itachi had to change sides and aid them in a 3 on 1 fight just to EVEN the playfield, even though they knew the full extent of Nagato's rinnegan abilities it didn't matter, so no wonder Jiraiya got beat alone and with no intel, it just makes sense specially in hindsight. I'm not implying that Jiraiya is Itachi's tier or whatever, but he was still more dangerous than people give him credit to, Itachi being wary of Jiraiya mirrors Obito being wary of Itachi, it's not that Obito thinks Itachi could beat him, it's just that he rather not risk it because one wrong move and it could be the end of him
You’re forgetting that early in that exchange Nagato got buffed by absorbing Bee’s chakra. I’m not taking him almost killing Naruto and Bee away but there’s a difference between that Nagato and the 6 pains I wouldn’t say Itachi changing sides evened things out. Susano’o and Amaterasu shut down anything he could do except the CT and after they got out of that he was defeated with relative ease. One could argue he didn’t necessarily need Naruto and Bee to get out of CT but rather requested their assistance for efficiency. And the Edo Itachi is weaker than his alive self outside of infinite stamina. Which is a misconception I often see, Itachi doesn’t have bad stamina he was almost blind against Sasuke and still had enough energy for a full fight
The thing is, Kakashi was actually doing pretty damn good against pain. Moreover 6 tails was actually just destroying pain until pain pulled out shinra tensei. Evermore we already know that Jiraya had fought 4 tails. And that was probably base holding back Jiraya as he didn't want to hurt Naruto. Just the fact that a prep time SAGE JIRAYA couldn't even tickle pains balls is just insane when just 6 tails bodied him Moreover itachi literally fought the 2 strongest paths and Jiraya fought the 3 weakest
@@mhassankhalid3774 ... Was destroying the singular, fatigued path of pain. All 6 paths at full power like the ones Jiraya fought would kind of just unconditionally beat 6 tails naruto.
Jiraya one shot the 3 paths with his genjutsu and killed one path twice. He was no diffed by the 6 paths because he got ambushed after defeating multiple paths. Pain even said if he knew how his ability worked he would of won.
Logically Jiraiya would have no counter to the Deva Path's strongest techniques. However Nagato probably wouldn't have gone all out since he was in the Rain Village.
@@KareemLaLa10the narrative of the Pain Arc quite literally supports the opposite of Jiraiya scaling to Pain due to Naruto training to surpass him in order to defeat Pain
@@HNHDebates Naruto trained to Get sage mode. Naruto did surpass Both Jiraiya and Minato in terms Sage mode. That doesn't mean Sage mode Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya or Minato. Jiraiya > Alive Minato > Sage Naruto Naruto with help + terrain advantage + all the Info ( info advantage since Pain didn't know Naruto's abilities ) + plot Armour + Kurama rampage etc. Barely beat a Weakened Pain. While Jiraiya with No help , No info , terrain disadvantage , Info disadvantage ( Pain knew Jiraiya's abilities and weakeneses ) , Plot nerfs etc. Almost beat Pain. And pain himself said Jiraiya would have beat him if he had info. The narrative always said Jiraiya was superior.
@@KareemLaLa10 This is just blatantly wrong. You cannot provide any sort of basis for Jiraiya being over Alive Minato, Tsunade is saying Naruto is training to surpass Jiraiya in order to defeat Pain, what do you think the narrative implication is there? Oh also Jiraiya literally admitted he would've lost to 3 paths in a Taijutsu battle, he almost beat them with Genjutsu, sure.
Yeah Kishi himself put Jiraya on the same level as Itachi in the data book so he’s pretty strong. Even Pain said if he figured out his secret he would have won. Also Jiraya has barrier ninjutsu where he can fight Itachi without looking at him, and he straight up sealed the Amaterasu no problem. Jiraya would body Kisame, that’s a stupid argument. If kisame used Samahada on sage mode energy he’d become a Toad like one of the pains, and on top of that his summonings are way stronger
Two problems with this. Jiraiya DID seal amaterasu, yes, but he didn't have the technique ready. He had to open a blank scroll, write on it, do some signs, and hit the ground. He ain't doing all that while burning to death. Even if he tried Itachi wouldn't just sit there idly and watch him do it. He'd burn the scroll, or throw a kunai at it. Technically sage mode energy wouldn't do anything to Kisame, as it's the sword itself that absorbs the energy. At worst he'd only lose the sword. Even if you want to account for him fusing with the sword, Pain needed to absorb all of Naruto's sage chakra twice before transforming. For a guy called the tailless tailed beast, and needed Guy to go to the 6th gate just to defeat a 30% clone of his and the 7th to beat him when he didn't have Samehada, I think he'd handle sage chakra just fine.
@@kyuubinaruto17 according to what we can see in Naruto/boruto amaterasu is very slow to burn the target, so I don t see problem for jiraya to take the scroll.
@@mihaimercenarul7467 yes but he beat the 3 non combatant pains that die in a few hits. one did summons. one only absorbs chakra. ands the 3rd one that can absorbs souls iirc. thats why it sounds easier.
@@Bloooo95 i heard the video-man himself,dont you think that each of these weak ass paths cook up a jonin each?and they re way stronger when fighting together...im just saying just because you dont beat itachi doesnt mean you re fodder lmao
People are quick to forget that when Jiraiya fought against pain. 1: he didn't know how many there were. 2. He wasn't fighting to his max, because he was also trying to gather as much intel on pain as possible. 3. He was also trying to keep collateral damage/deaths down. 4. He was also shocked to see familiar faces of people he fought in the mist of battle. Whoever this guy is on this channel clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. 😂
Bro what are you on? When in the series do characters get a thorough run down and explanation of the opponent's abilities before a fight. Shinobi are supposed to adapt and overcome unique opponents. Besides Pain also was trying to keep damage to a minimum he could have used his Almighty push or Chibaku Tensai but he chose not to and its Jiraiya's fault for not going full power when seeing the Rinnegan.
@@rohan7969 Its not about Info about abilities bruh 🤦 FYI : Naruto got full info on abilities. Nagato knew weaknesses of Jiraiya and how to counter his Strongest attacks. While Jiraiya has no idea about Pain's abilities🤷🏻 :( if you want to know how much does knowing the weakness of the opponent matters , Think about how Jiraiya literally One shotted Konan while Konan almost Killed Obito and forced him to use izanagi ). And Jiraiya did go to sage mode when he saw Rinnegan , even though his base was handling things pretty well. Jiraiya did beat 3 Pain simultaneously at their own turf with no info. Which is a dream for most Ninja ( including Most Kage ). Jutsu getting absorbed , Taijutsu gets blocked with Shared Vision , Soul gets ripped in close combat , Massive summoning animals speeding onto you etc. Jiraiya lost that fight because he didn't know what to do🙌 He can kill pain , But they come back without any damage. They werw literally immortal. He could have easily escaped but knew that if he didn't find the secret of pain , Pain would be unstoppable. And he did find the secret and relay that onto Naruto. Which was the reason Naruto was able remove Chakra rods form their body and Chakra down Nagato
jiraiya vs the 4 tails, he probably couldnt activate sage mode in time and the 9 tails chakara can do some pretty surprising things if u dont know much about it. he cud have dodged an arm but then another arm pops out. also orochimaru was ripped in half and jiraiya was able to survive. i know orochimaru has hacks but thats pretty good for jiraiya's durability.
I believe Jiraya never really showed his full potential, even against pain 🤷♂️, maybe Itachi knew about his FULL potential and thats why he didn’t go against him.
Bruh Jiraiya was wide open for Tsukuyumi or Amaterasu ,, Itachi could have ended him on the spot in one sec exactly like he did orochimaru but he didn't do anything except hold Kisame back and lie to him to scare him off to leave peacefully without killing important leaf shinobi
Are we going to ignore the fact that Pain literally said that Jiraiya would have beaten him If he had the Intel about How Pain's abilities work from the start? Naruto literally went in with full Intel against a fatigued Pain and only won because of Kurama
@@junior523 pain said that in respect to his master that statement is contradicted bc pain said that Naruto was the strongest opponent he fought so Naruto>jiraya he indirectly says it and pain is stronger than Naruto as he needed kurama to win so pain>sm Naruto>jiraya kishimoto contradicted past statements many times
To make it workout I would say Jiraya was bluffing a lot of the time and made himself above his age and strength. He is the ultimate jester and serves to give confidence to his students as they find their own inner strength.
Many wrong points in this video. For starters, no, Pain Arc Kakashi would not beat Jiriaya. Kakashi had help from Choji and Choza in that fight. They trapped Tendo Pain and then Kakashi almost landed his Raikiri.
@@hiteshsharma1132 Yeah Kakashi even makes a remark when fighting pain about how unbelievable it is to him that Jiraiya fought all 6 paths at once, kind of implying he sees Jiraiya as stronger than himself
The only part I disagree with is the part of "Itachi destroyed Nagato". Nah, Nagato easy wins that, the only way for Itachi to win is to use a deus ex machina like the totsuka blade (and even then...).
I don't think totsuka can seal moving targets,orochimaru only got sealed cause he was stuck in that snake,a person who can move freely can just use their biggest jutsu to counter or avoid it.
He got jumped by 6 dead people he knew With the powers of the rinnegan Its not like the deva path is so much stronger than the animal path The only difference is abilites I will say that jiraiya was weaker than he portrays But not by a crazy amount Id argue his experience plays into his legendary title
But Jiraiya was never fodder? Against Orochimaru: Jiraiya was drugged and was at 30% of his total power and facing one of the strongest dudes in the series. Against Itachi and Kisame: Jiraiya made them run and forced Itachi to use Amaterasu, one of Itachi's best techniques while Jiraiya just used one regular jutsu. Against 4 tailed Naruto: Jiraiya obviously doesn't want to kill Naruto, nor did he have advanced Jinchuriki sealing techniques as the plot Yamato had. Also Jiraiya isn't Orochimaru who can regenerate from any wound. So who knows for how long Jiraiya fought Naruto 4 tails while holding back. Against Konan: Jiraiya EASILY defeated Konan, a girl that almost killed plot armor Obito and destroyed many ninjas in Konoha. Against 3 Pain: Jiraiya had difficulties against 3 Pain, AS ANYONE WOULD, but he was able to win the fight high diff, without any previous info on them. Against the full might of the six Paths of Pain: Obviously Jiraiya lost but remember everything started with a cheap shot to Jiraiya that he never expected. Despite Six Paths of Pain very low diff him, Jiraiya was able to defeat one of them, and transport him to konoha. Also while near death he was able to send a message which was a HUGE KEY to deal with the Pains. Without Jiraiya, Konoha would have falled with Naruto in it. So...the question is...... HOW IS JIRAIYA FODDER AGAIN?
Being a ninja is also about information and special circumstances. When it comes to combat experience and information at hand. Third hokage surpasses them all and was called the professor for a reason.
In my opinion: The Biggest mistake is they made Jiraiya Sage mode imperfect. For a Ninja that has Title a of "Toad Sage" They should made Naruto imperfect the Sage Mode if they are planning to give more Naruto new forms. Plus i like the concept of Sage mode transform into more Animals. Than having an Eyeshadow.
Yeah I straight up despise the fact Naruto just gets eyeliner and frog eyes in sage mode. When he has the KCM cloak you can't even tell he is in sage mode unless it zooms in on his eyes. He should have changed way more physically.
Generally speaking the sannin were so hyped and considered the strongest in the verse in part 1 but in part 2 they seem much weaker, they got outshined by newer characters and got suprased by past characters (Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Guy, Sakura,) And all of these characters are complete fodder in boruto
Also bear in mind that Kishimoto doesn't sit around with power scaling notes, and a scientific sense of how strong the characters are. Jiraiya struggling with the Animal Path seems to be less Kishimoto saying 'Jiraiya struggled with dudes Naruto could oneshot', and more like early game setup for the reveal that Pain was 6 entire dudes, and that Jiraiya hadn't scratched the surface.
What I LOVE about Jiraiya regardless of the story or writing is the fact that HE IS A REGULAR GUY! He is more of a Naruto than Naruto himself. He was trained by third and Fukusaku, but He was an orphan boy with no kekkei genkai, never stole kekkei genkai like Danzo, Orochimaru and 99% of relevant characters. He actually was a regular dude who trained himself into being absolute unit and giving PAIN issues while Pain had ALL advantages and initiative going for him.
There are plenty of discrepancies between Part 1 and Shippuden. It's so easy to just say "ah, it's another retcon because it wasn't like this in Part 1!" But, with the Sannin, I do think that this is the case. They were pretty much the strongest characters in Part 1, apart from the Hokage (which is what Tsunade becomes anyway; and they are all supposed to be Kage-level, which was basically the highest level at that point. The Bijuu were also a retcon and were more of a rare exception, but it was possible for Kage to take them on) And the Akatsuki too, but they were pretty much a mystery at that point. And they still make a big deal about them in Shippuden, at least before Pain shows up. I honestly feel like they were yeeted to the wayside a bit too quickly. I would have preferred if they all remained at least relevant throughout the series, even if their students do surpass them in their teens while the Sannin have about a lifetime of experience... They're also all kind of washed up at various points of the story, even though they were considered legendary in Part 1. So yes, I do think it's a retcon, just as Minato was retconned into no longer being the strongest Kage... and Jiraiya trained him. So Jiraiya's standing suffered as a result.
Right before Itachi and kisame do that talk. Orochimaru says Itachi is stronger than him and Orochimaru was probably stronger than jiraya so I think itachi was just tricking Kisame in order to delay naruto's capture
Jihraya has never been on of the most powerful but he is known for being a good strategist, he can win with underhandedethons from unorthodox techniques which I feel should have been shown more and expand on the ninja side of the story.
you can say hiruzen is stronger than oruchimaru 20 times dosnt make it right. hiruzen lost against orochimaru and what you mean with "he almost won" is "he almost killed himself to also kill orochimaru" which wouldnt be a win it would be a draw. also BASE jiraiya was still STRONGER then the 4tails HE WON against the 4tails.
@@codbeast914 Jiraiya being serious would have killed Naruto there. But writer had to show Nine tails power somehow. Kids think 4 tails Naruto beat jiraiya
I have always have the question, where was it ever stated that the bodies of the Pains have any difference besides the abilities, cause the whole talk about Jiraiya fighting the weakest pains is crazy.
The Paths are based off of the 6 Samsaric Realms: Neraka is the lowest, then Preta, Animal, Human, Asura, and finally Deva as the strongest. Personally id say the Animal Path is the 3rd strongest Path, the one's Jiriaya fights aren't the strongest ones as Deva is clearly presented as the strongest, Asura aids him so he has to be next and that just leaves the Neraka Path which sending out to fight is stupid when he is the only one that can revive the others.
Umm… the abilities split across the Pains aren’t equal in strength. Deva Path destroyed Konoha with one Shinra Tensei. Meanwhile, the Preta Path has no offensive ability. Beating Preta Path is not remotely impressive when compared to beating the Deva Path.
@@Bloooo95 "besides the abilities" was clearly stated in the comment. If the bodies have the same physical strength then the whole "Jiraiya defeated the weakest pains" is void.
@@jackgonahieu4999 Konoharmu can defeat (but not kill) the Neraka Path with a Rasengan whereas the Preta Path can catch Sage Jiraiya's Massive Rasengan and the Asura Path survived getting crushed by Choza's giant fists.
Shippuden just ruimed the sannin to be honest. In part 1 they were top tier shinnobi who were only rivaled by each other and the hokages Powercreep is a bitch man.
I agree with you and this why i don't like boruto. Shinobis in Naruto part 1 that were considered Very strong are now completely fodder part 2 characters that were also considered legendary now seem completely out scaled and weak. I get that characters should become stronger as the show goes on but it seems like all the hype past characters once had has no meaning
I mostly agree, but I do think you're downplaying his sage mode, if Jiraiya uses the frogs sing illusion Itachi goes down, Itachi needed sasuke to break out from the Kabuto illusion. Not that hanging on would be that easy for Jiraiya but I think He could.
It makes no sense to ignore the author speaking through characters. Itachi saying they both would die means exactly that. Kisame saying he cant beat him means that. Pain saying jiraiya would win means that. Fighting the pain that negates all ninjitsu and the pain that summons is the feat. Itachi doesnt have the chakra to fight summonings and ninjutsu. Jiraiya was always stronger than orochimaru and was always implied to be holding back with no killing intent to show naruto and sasuke future if naruto didnt break the trend.
normally yes. until you realize it was retconned which was part of the talking points in this video. after the fight itachi vs sauske in shippuden. obito talks about that day and itachi wasnt there to fight and avoided killing people. he was only there to remind danzo of thier deal. he was a secret agent for the leaf. multiple people that day state itachi was acting weird. like kakshi stating why didnt itachi just kill me pointing out tiachi was out of character since he knew how itachi was during their time in the anbu. itachi would kill without hesitation but spared kakshi randomly. in shippuden itachi by feats massively outweighed jiriyah. same as itahci. now jiriyah is a goated character and so well written. but by shippuden itachi and kisame are stronger than him.
Orochimaru's experimentation on himself along with his immortality make him stronger on default,but on base skills alone without added buffs then Jiraya is better.
@raiden3013 they only out feat him because he had only 1 fight against their boss that stated himself jiraiya would win against him. Jiraiya still didn't fear itachi or kisame and he clearly knew them. I don't see a retcon anywhere.
You say not to ignore author intent and then choose to ignore Orochimaru said right before that statement that Itachi was MUCH more powerful than me, in an arc where Jiraiya admits he wasn’t strong enough to stop Orochimaru. 💀 It was very obvious something else was going on.
@Bloooo95 itachi is stronger than orochimaru. Jiraiya is too, but he isn't strong enough to drag him back to village. He never intended to kill orochimaru.
Yeah he's a great writer but he can't handle criticism. He made Sasuke way stronger than he was in Shippuden and made Jiraiya lose every fight. His personal bias is clearly visible.
@@hiteshsharma1132 yeah, I agree, it's up to him honestly which character he doesn't like, and how he write his story, as long as he honest about it, and don't present his bias as a fact, and telling that his story is a "better" version of Naruto, when it's just another story,
I think if Jiraiya was given one or two fights that showcased his abilities with a win we wouldn't have felt somewhat cheated when he lost to Pain; however you could argue that losing but still winning is the main message behind his character as Dygo pointed out. Still hurts to this day he died but it makes sense on more than just simply powerscale.
@@hiteshsharma1132 Kage level is such a broad term and smth Jiraiya already reached so I'm not even gonna talk about that, but I'm aware it's a feat for Jiraiya. I'm saying it's moreso portrayed as an antifeat for Konan though, not as if it's super impressive Jiraiya can subdue Konan
Kakashi hypes up Jiraya and considers him superior to himself. Kakashi knows Jiraya’s skill and power yet people wanna act like Kakashi is stronger than the Sannin Yea Kakashi does reach a level on par with the Sannin imo by the end of part 2 but in part 1, he is “fodder” to them. The guy was terrified of Orochimaru Orochimaru also never calls Jiraya weak nor underestimates him. People say this due to the 4 tails battle that Orochimaru did “better”. In some ways he did. But as we saw unlike Jiraya, Orochimaru not only was going for the kill but has his OP and unique substitution jutsu, that literally saved him from death a handful of times in that fight with 4 tails. Other than that, he couldn’t hurt 4 tails at all. The OP sub is the reason Orochimaru survived, not cuz he is “stronger” than Jiraya Also, if anything, that just proves Jiraya is superior since he survived against 4 tails with no “cheat” that can prevent his death. Jiraya survived with “1 life” while Orochimaru had resets Outside of anime filler, we don’t have much detail with how Jiraya handled 4 tails.
5:58 At this time Orochimaru was not trying to kill Itachi he wanted to take over his body. If Orochimaru wants to kill someone without getting tired himself he "can't summon one of the 2nd Hokage or both" or another ninja from his undead arsenal. Orochimaru can make himself pretty much any character if he really wanted to. You know many who could handle the 2nd Hokage even at 50% capacity.
Jiraiya has never been a fodder. He's very powerful, arguably the strongest of all Sannin. He defeated 50% of Pain with ZERO knowledge of Pain's power. I'm not saying Jiraiya will beat Pain, but the genjutsu will defeat ALL SIX Pains if they're hit together. He beats Hebi Sasuke and Kisame. Kisame's Water Bubble's size is nothing compared to Toad Flame Bomb's that he used with Gamabunta in Part 1. Samehada hates fire and will leave Kisame if forced to keep absorbing fire.
Jiraya is fodder compared to tsunade,naruto era orochimaru,kisame,sick itachi,killer bee,minato,pain and essentially every high kage level character he is not weak it is just that other high kage level characters are too strong for him
@@xxxtimeghostxxxtsunade is underrated bro she is clearly stronger than jiraya cause in the war arc she was healing everyone and fighting madara jiraya has not done anything that can beat that feat
nah… only 2 out her people in the village had a chance of killing at least 1. Kakashi and Naruto, Naruto bodied all of them as we all know and then Kakashi kinda killed 1 but not even really. So that make jiraiya killing, so he’s stronger than anyone else in the village beside Naruto.
Jiraiya has some hard counters to itachi. Any of the frog summons could null any genjutsu. He knows itachi and his powers. He looked him straight in the eyes because he didn't care, he was prepared, even if the audience didn't know. Itachi was a master at strategy and genjustu. If you take away his genjutsu, you only have strategy. Running was the only option. People always wonder how some legendary figures die to less powerful people, and its because everyone know their powers and prepares for them.
Overrated bc they were hyped up for hanzo and itachi,killer bee,minato,kisame,tobirama,pain,7th gates guy all of them far surpass the sanin I am talking about naruto era orochimaru btw people assume sanin are as strong as minato or pain but those shinobi I named are stronger than sanins
itts ebcause it make sno sense. even if jiriyah knew nagastos secret. hwo would he actually ahve defeated pain? by feats which is the best way of scaling characters jiriyah falls short to a lot of staments. its not doing him dirty its jsut jiriyah has poor portrayals or there a lot fo feats that contradict things said about him. he is still one of the best naruto characters created.
How would knowing Nagato is controlling the Pains from afar help him beat them in a fight? It might help Jiraiya know to not engage with them and try to kill Nagato’s decrepit body. Sure. But that’s not fighting the Pains directly.
@@Bloooo95 If he knew, he wouldn't even have gone to the Rain in the first place. He would scout the main body and kill him. It's not a tournament, you don't have to win a 1v6 for fun.
TBH Jiraya may not be strong enough to defeat Itachi or Madara, but the fact that he lasted as long as he did against Pain is a feat all on its own. The same Pain wiped out the entire village after that, with only the people with plot armor even coming close to fighting against him. Even Kakashi died in that battle! So saying that Jiraya is weak because he couldn't beat Pain is like saying I'm not strong because I can't lift a bus over my head.
@@HC-gm4fo Not sure what that has to do with my comment, but It makes sense. Perhaps Itachi believed he'd need his Sharingan to beat Jiraya and didn't want to use it up because he wanted to save it for Sasuke.
@@onepieceazz Bruh had to run from and use ms for toad mouth trap, Jiraiya’s opening move. Lol Need ms for bring down the house. Need ms for all of Gamabunta’s moves
Jiraya legit butt water. compare him all of itachi fight to his Itachi beaten orochimaru on two separate occasions Faught a kage lvl ninja like sasuke(beaten deidra) and made look weak while being dead on his feet Carried naruto and kiler bee in their agaisnt nagato Carried sasuke with their fight against sage kabuto What does jiraiya have in comparison?getting oneshotted by 4 tailed naruto the same naruto orochimaru held his own against Bearly able to fight 3 of weakest paths of pain lmao In comparison jiraiya buttcheeks
This video was illuminating for me. This make naruto's sage mode being way more powerful than Jiraya's logical. I still think that Naruto's sage training timeskip should be longer, to emphasize the difficulty of attaining it, to give the story a breathing room and to give key secondary characters some sdevelopment.
Yeah, about the fact that Pain said Jiraiya would’ve won against him if he had intel and Naruto lost in Sage Mode with intel sto Jiraiya was AT LEAST on par with Naruto
@@bencri6248Naruto fought all the pains while jiraiya only fought a few pains that where also not going all out from the beginning because they fought their teacher. I also think pains statement that jiraiya could have won if he knew their secret is more so to mean all the body's could have gotten trapped in the frog song if jiraiya knew there where 6 body's. Or if jiraiya knew that he only needed to kill the cripled real body. Just like obito saying itachi could have killed obito if he knew his secret would probably just be talking about kamui/izanagi and not that itachi would actually win in a battle
Even pain said that jiraya would have beat him if he knew his secret, so kishimoto was litterly saying if jiraya had the same intel on nagato as nagato did on him he would have lost to jiriya not to mention he also fought konan during that fight.
IMAGINE IF PAIN FOUGHT JIRAIYA OUTSIDE OF THE RAIN VILLAGE. One Giant almighty push. GG Planetery deviation. GG Soul Snatch. GG LETS BE REAL - Pain was hardly trying because he couldn’t use any of his big moves AND STILL BODY BAGGED Big J. The facts ARE THE FACT.
Idk why yall can't understand that styles make fights, Tsunade is physically the strongest sannin yet she wouldn't be able to do much against Pain, neither would Orochiramu due to the summonings. Tsunade and Orochiramu have one summon each apparently while Jiraiya has a bunch. And neither Orochiramu nor Jiraiya would do much against Madara. I do agree however that Jiraiya feels dissappointing and that's partly due to Itachi's power being retconned, i mean Kabuto literally had a counter measure for genjutsu and still got trapped, fvck that.
@@SyedAli-gl7jq no. Multiple times stated that the Sannins are equally as strong. Tsunade being the physically strongest, Orochiramu the fastest and most durable and Jiraiya the most versatile one.
Jariya has such a strange way of being written. Taught minato when he was younger yet Naruto basically got thr anko treatment where they learned stuff they probably already could have gotten naturally Naruto could have gotten that spike shield to act as a defense or cool spike naruto barrage where it would up his damage. Heck i think kakashi taught Naruto more in the short time he had like his element which somehow jariya left out as i doubt trying to control the 9 tails chakra took years to give up on. If i had to compare this with other anime masters. Kisuke from bleach not teaching ichigo makes sense as Ichigo needed battle skill to fight thr shinigami while reileigh in one piece taught luffy the basics of haki which is an enormous step up too. Jariya had way more rime than these two yet did so much less than most of the sensei and other anime masters
Tsunade,pain and sasuke are extremely underrated characters but they are actually one of the top 5 best written characters in naruto in my opinion they just don't get enough credit like minato and jiraya get for instance
Jiraiya never wanted to Make Naruto really strong by training. He did that to Minato and Konan , Nagato , Yahiko etc. Teaching Konan , Nagato and Yahiko when they had no idea about Chakra use and make Them Jonin lvl at least is a bigger feat than Any of the Teachers you just mentioned. He Taught Naruto his Ninja way. And Basic Chakra Mastery and Jutsu. He also taught Naruto Top tier Taijutsu ( which Naruto lacked very much in Part 1 ) He taught Naruto how to fight strategically and Tactically. Part 2 base Naruto was outplaying Kakashi to an extent. But Jiraiya's main goal was To control Kurama Chakra. With his help , Naruto was able to pull out Kurama Chakra whenever he wanted. And could control it Upto 3 tails
Jiriya clearly said he was surprised the 4 tails came out. Cuz he was point blank. He was at naruto stomach weakened the seal and then bam 4 tails fucking nukes him. So jiryia took a point blank hit from 4 tails cloak. While snake boi fought 4 tail cloak from a range battle. Not hand to hand. Which would utter destroy snake.
@@SyedAli-gl7jq You mean the same Jutsu base Guy dodged during the Kazekage rescue arc and countered a billion of during the War Arc? Yeah, Sage Mode Jiraiya is never once getting hit by it
First of for a RUclipsr who is usually Meta in his analysis I don't understand how you missed this....in most stories even if they are earlier shown to be at the same level, by the end the opponent of the main character usually scales stronger than the mentor of the main character. In Naruto there is a slight twist, Jiraya is Naruto's mentor while Itachi is Sasuke's opponent. These are two different MCs but they are always relative to each other. So, simply for writing reasons mentors like Jiraya, Orochimaru, etc will always be nerfed relative to main opponents like Pain and Itachi. Speed, strength and stamina of characters differ widely not based on power levels but based on story demands. Same goes for other abilities, for eg. You could easily argue that since Jiraya is constantly absorbing chakra in his Sage mode (as opposed to just when standing still like Naruto) he would be a hard counter to Genjutsu attacks since they are broken by receiving outside chakra. Similarly, you could argue that in their peak form Jiraya has much better stamina than Itachi and can easily maintain his Sage mode much longer than Itachi could maintain his MS abilities so, Jiraya could make it a battle of attrition and win.
This was actually in the manga originally. The anime changed it when they first animated the scene because they probably were confused by what Kishimoto was going for. In the original manga, Kisame says, “Why are we running away? With your power…”
Sometimes I like his videos for speaking without fear. Like for example topics when it comes to Obito is on point. But sometimes he just likes to go opposite so he would get the attention.
Just because Itachi fought Sasuke while sick doesn't mean Orochimaru is weak for not being able to walk while sick, for one we don't even know if they had the same sickness, that is not indicative of Sasuke being close to Orochimaru in power if he were healthy, in fact Karin directly says Sasuke's performance against Deidara is pathetic for someone who is supposed to have beaten Orochimaru, indicating Orochimaru would have stomped Deidara (Sasori also scales below him because of how Sasuke and 4 tails Naruto stomped Sakura, who managed to give Sasori a decent fight with Chiyo's help, and Naruto and Sasuke scale below a healthy Orochimaru). Deidara is blatantly way above Kakuzu because Naruto during the Kakuzu fight is still trying to catch up to Sasuke's strenght, so Orochimaru would beat Kakuzu, Hidan, Asuma, and would beat Kakashi as well given his performance against Kakuzu, as Kakashi and Kakuzu were in a similar league,so it goes to show how that Jiraiya, who is relative to Orochimaru, would perform similarly to Kakashi if he was put in the same situation, it is a completely different set of paths, with intel and support, and it should be noted Kakashi still lost the fight against Pain even with the better circumstances and not getting jumped by all the paths at the same time while injured like Jiraiya was. On top of this we saw how Jiraiya dispatched Konan with extreme ease, Konan who originally beat Sasori (with the 3rd Kazekage puppet) meaning she scales above the third kazekage and the 4th (given the 3rd was the strongest kazekage prior to Gaara) and if this power disparity was consistent this would further solidify the Sannin's scaling above Deidara, Kakuzu and Pre-War Kakashi as well. We know Itachi was fatigued during his enounter with Jiraiya in part I (as he had to deactivate the MS and was breathing heavily for using a single Amaterasu and the Tsukuyomi on Sasuke), Kisame is proven to grow stronger after the time skip because of his 30% power clone was able to handle Might Guy even though he was pressed by him in Part I, that's a massive increase, so him going from below Jiraiya to slightly above Killer Bee is consistent with that. Also Guy in Part I is also proven to be below Jiraiya because Jiraiya is stated to be the village's only hope of beating Orochimaru, meaning Jiraiya scales above Part I Guy and Kakashi (directly proven by Kakashi being paralyzed in feat at Orochimaru's sight, too), and thus Kisame being relative to Guy is consistent with Kisame's statement of not being comparable to the Sannin. Itachi probably also grew in power from Part I to Part II by mastering his MS abilities further (he seems to be able to use them more than in Part I even if he is closer to being blind because of it), so Jiraiya being able to win that fight is not out of the realm of possibility, if Itachi is exhausted and Kisame is weaker than Jiraiya, we should also consider that even though Itachi no-diffed Orochimaru when he first joined the Akatsuki, there's nothing that says Orochimaru didin't grow stronger than his past self since then, even if he still thinks he doesn't stand a chance against Itachi the gap is likely less abysmal, especially if Itachi is becoming sick and still is not as in control of his MS as in Shippuden, so this smaller gap in power compared to 4 years prior on top of Itachi's weakened state at the time Jiraiya appeared gives credence that Jiraiya could have potentially taken them out. So yeah Jiraiya is definetly not fodder seeing as he can beat most of the Akatsuki (Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Part I Kisame, and obviously Zetsu) all of Hebi including Sasuke, all the Kazekage prior to Gaara, Pre-War Kakashi, is relative to Ay (since Tsunade is relative to him) and has the most OP genjutsu barring Kotoamatsukami (Toad Song). That Kakashi would surpass the Sannin by getting rid of his depression is perfectly consistent with the fact that Sakumo was originally hailed as being a legendary ninja stronger than the Sannin, Kakashi inherited Sakumo's potential and graduated the academy at 5 years old, a year younger than the sannin did, it makes sense that Kakashi would reach the level of his father or even higher thus far surpassing Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru.
I've never seen a video as biased as this one, you basically disregarded all the disadvantages that Jiraiya had in the fight against Pain, while at the same time not mentioning advantages that characters like Naruto and Kakashi had against Pain. like, jiraya didn't know how many enemies he had, kakashi and naruto knew, jiraya didn't know what jutsu pain had, naruto and kakashi knew. you say that kakashi fought against pain's strongest bodies but, but kakashi had help and still lost without being able to do anything against pain, so why is this seen as merit for kakashi and demerit for jiraya? these are just a few examples of how biased this video is. but hey according to "the experts in naruto" itachi is probably stronger than the sage of the six paths himself, i mean what the poor hagoromo could do against the powerful totsuka blade, right? hahahaha
The fact that people call him fodder because he lost to full power pain with no intel is astounding to me.
Exactly. If Jiraiya knew that Nagato was controlling 6 bodies he would have fought differently. Even Nagato admitted that if Jiraiya knew their secret the result may have been different.
Pain had to hold back
People act like itachi, Kakashi or anyone else would of done better.
Jiraya actually did pretty amazing.
@@hiteshsharma1132especially if he knew the abilities of each body like Naruto did when fighting pain. Legit every big screwup jiraiya had in the fight is due to lack of intel
@@orochimarupr still does not change the fact that jiraya is gay and the weakest high kage level fighter in naruto😭😭😭itachi,pain,tsunade,kakashi,madara,hashirama and sasuke are the W characters tsunade,pain and sasuke are amazing characters who don't get enough credit but characters like gay jiraya and gay tobirama have so many fans
It's quite simple really. Jiraiya just suffers really badly from the Worf effect.
Basicly all of his major fights serve purely to make someone else look powerfull.
The narrative doesn't allow him to look good, let alone win, any of his fights, his purpose in these fights is to get his ass kicked, and thus make his opponent look powerfull cuz they defeated this legendary warrior relativly easily.
yup, and kakashi lietrally is the best example of that. Kakashi doesn't win most of his fights for the main reason that he is the master, and his students are the protagonists that need to shine more and win their fights. So kakashi is not allowed to win fights against other antagonists
What you are saying applies to Kakashi, not to Jiraiya. Jiraiya fought only twice in the series, won against Konan and lost to Pain.
That's literally almost every character in Naruto who tf is Hanzo? No one yet his word is so respected that everyone around the world dickrides the 3 mfs who stalemated him when they were young. Kurenai being stated the best genjutsu user in the leaf, do absolutely jack just for Itachi to embarrass her on her specialty. Asuma the same shite, one of the few actual jounins (not Tokubetsu jounins whatever that is), former guard of the boss of the Kage just to get slammed by the weakest mf of Akatsuki. The writing in Naruto is everything but a masterpiece.
@@jackgonahieu4999 O Jiraiya definitly isn't the only one suffering from the worf effect in Naruto, it's just that he's one of the bigger examples, being a Sannin yet failing to do much of significance on screen.
But yeah, pretty much everyone who isn't Sasuke, Naruto, or a main antagonist suffers from it at one point or another.
Exactly, same with all the kages later. And tailed beasts to hype up the sharigan wielding villains even more
jiraiya's death completed his character because he gave his full trust to naruto that he will bring peace to the work
this is why guy should've died after using the 8th gate. even if didn't kill madara, he was still able to delay madara for naturo and sasuke to arrive fully entrusting the next generation. That would certainly make guy opening the 8th gate more impactful
facts. they should have ressurected Neji!
Dude, Jiraiya dying is the most predictable thing there is for character progression and such. Jiraiya is one of the goats up till his death and plays as the teacher/ father figure. It gave hype to Naruto surpassing his teacher who at that point was one of the strongest characters in the show. This Is one of the most used things in writing and no that doesn't mean he is fodder. I haven't watched the video yet but Jiraiya has a fairly short list of Shinobi stronger than him. Pain was meant to be the hype because here is this villain that defeats someone who is the sole protector of the leaf and rivals any other villain such as Itachi and he just loses outright with no hope against Pain and also goes on to destroy the leaf. That was the most hyped I was by far through the whole show except the final showdown between Naruto and Sasuke or Obito VS Kakasi although that was just a staged fight by Obito
One thing I liked about Jiraiya was how he did not care about looking his age.
Orochimaru made it his life's purpose to achieve eternal youth with immortality, but we all know Might Guy and Rock Lee had the true eternal youth.
Tsunade did not like showing wrinkles and hid them away with her regeneration jutsu. Jiraiya did not care for his wrinkles. He only cared when his imperfect Toad Sage Mode changed his natural look.
Orochimaru reached his goal and has the perfect body. He doesn't age at all just gets younger
Well I agree with Orocimaru's case.
But Tsunade has an effortless way to stay fit, everyone would do the same... It is just a way to stay better, not only "look" better but feel and stay actually better.
Who will deny a better quality of life if it comes with no detriment ?
@@YataVSTheWorld tusanda real looks is far older than her age because we see that her real look is of a 70 years old woman.
When she is 50
@@YataVSTheWorld I mean orochimaru has a zetsu body and can also regenerate unlike tsunade. Does tsunade have the energy to beat adult sakura?
@@orochimarupr I assumed the initial commenti was about the effort and dangers Orochimaru faced pre time skip and farming Sasuke to achieve extended life
It's literally powercreep... i dont get why scalers act like Kishimoto planned the powerlevels for scaling... The simple fact is that Jiraya was super strong, but after he died, characters started getting a LOT stronger automatically... IF he was written in the war arc he wouldn't get freaking speed blitzed... he'd keep up just like all the other characters could
Agreed. They’re also in love with Itachi, every one I’ve seen.
This right here 🔥🔥 you speaking facts
As simple as that, but people just don't want to admit that in the long run of the series Jiraya just can't compete... the powerscaling went out of proportions and a lot of characters became background characters.
Characters didn't get "stronger automatically", like, we literally SEE Naruto train to attain Sage mode, kurama form, Kakashi getting better and faster with kamui, Sasuke attaining mankekeyo and progressively strengthening his abilities, etc.
Did you even watch the video? He compared him to other characters around similar strength.
Why bother commenting if you don’t have any arguments
Jiraya wasnt weak in shippuden. He didnt die to some random dude, it was pain. Pain literally fought the leaf village in its entirety and won very easily. Meaning jiraya scales to a guy who is as strong as the strongest village.
Facts
I mean, yes, but Jiraiya also said that he would die fighting against 3 of the weakest Pains. Him losing to all 6 isn’t the issue. It’s his performance leading up to that.
As much as I agree to you, you have to keep in mind that Guy, the strongest Taijutsu user wasn't in the village as Pain attacked :D
@@SryBut i don't think it would have made much of a difference. Guy is similar to kakashi without the 8th gate and even if 8th gate guy killed every pain, nagato still wins.
@@Bloooo95 jiraya beat 3 of the weaker pains at the same time. BUT everyone else in the leaf basically died fighting against the pains who were split up fighting solo. Kakashi actually died just fighting 2 and he was basically the next strongest leaf ninja. So jiraya isn't as strong as pain, but he's in a similar league as pain.
Getting hit by a 4 tails in base and putting him down in base is a feat.
Especially when Orochimaru who is supposed to be the strongest Sannin got hit in presumably the same way from the same 4 tails and got literally ripped in half
You people are biased.
That was kid Naruto with 4 tails.
After the timeskip Naruto probably one shot that Naruto that was fighting jiraiya. orochimaru was fighting timeskip Naruto with 4 tails which means the Naruto orochimaru was fighting is stronger.
Not to mention that this was the weakest version of orochimaru we ever seen since his body is rejecting him, sick( he was shown taking some medicine with Kabuto and sick enough to get obliterated by Sasuke) and on a diffirent weaker body.
That was the orochimaru you people are comparing jiraiya. Nah bro jiraiya is weak
@whatwhy6349 firstly neither fought naruto so naruto power doesn't matter. What happened to jiraiya was similar to what happened to Minato. An unexpected transformation of someone you can't try to hurt. We know jiraiya was alone and successful. Orochimaru wasn't successful he had no solution. Also a healthy orochimaru was nearly one-shot by pain and itachi separately. The same itachi that said " we would both die" when referencing jiraiya and the same pain that said "if he knew our secret"
@@bhyde88 your clearly full of shit and don't know your stuff
The nine tails is a amp to a user which means
The more powerful the user the stronger the
Amp. It doesn't matter that they didn't fight Naruto directly but it does matter that how strong Naruto's body is because of the amp.
. Since kid Naruto< timeskip Naruto then apply the same multiplayer with the four tails amp then timeskip Naruto is stronger with the four tails amp.
Pain and itachi would one shot jiraiya.
Jiraiya was injury by a path weaker than yahiko path. It tears his arm off, imagine the yahiko path doing that. Jiraiya would be dead. The secret pain was referring to was none of the paths of pain is the true body but hiding away somewhere and if jiraiya could find the true body, he wins because nagato is very defenseless.
Itachi was a secret agent for the leaf and didn't want to hurt/kill one of the leaf strongest people like jiraiya and he didn't kill anyone there when he and kisame invaded konoha. So he fooled kisame by saying that jiraiya is stronger than he actually is. Same with orochimaru, jiraiya gets one shot by genjutsu.
If orochimaru is the strongest sanin and gets one shotted so does jiraiya.
@@whatwhy6349 jiraya >>>>>itachi and Orochimaru
"if you love some1 you are biased towards thinking they are more powerful than they actually are." you with literally every uchiha except obito xD
Don't even mention hikaku😂
Pain would body Itachi no problem
Fr bruh. Dygo always talks about how Uchiha ruined the series in his analysis videos. That they got to strong, with too many asspull powerups etc. he says all this while being the biggest Uchiha fanboy 😂.
@@ashlinthomas4500he is not an Uchiha fan
Every mihawk fan
Yeah, it's a retcon. I'm confident in my belief that the series was never planned to be as powerful as it ended up becoming. Hiruzen was declared Kage-level in early Naruto, but in part two he looks like fodder, too
In fairness, Hiruzen was revived at like 90-years-old.
Eah, OG Naruto and Shippuden are almost two different shows. Jutsu's don't really matter in Shippuden, let alone Boruto. Sakura got dealt a shit hand. Tenten being able to summmon weapons should have became a mastwr summoner of animals too. Kiba should have become a wolf sage.
But I don’t think Kage level really changes throughout the series. Jiraiya is probably around as strong as the other 5 Kage and Tsunade, it’s just that they introduce so many characters far above Kage level like Hashirama, Madara, KCM Naruto, etc.
??? In part 2 he only fought against juubito and Madara and did as well against them against any of the 5 current Kate did or would’ve. If that show a 90 year old Hiruzen is still kage level idk what does
@@ElliotKeatonhe was 69
Playing devil's advocate, Jariaya went into the hidden rain for recon purposes and didn't know what he'd encounter. He had no info about how Pain and the other paths operated. For much of the fight he was trying to figure out the secrets behind them in order to get the info back to the hidden leaf. When the village is attacked the leaf Shinobi at least have a heads up on what's coming so they can somewhat prepare and even still the 6 paths did a tremendous amount of damage
He knew he said it himself I might not come back from this mission
@@pepballer6375so because he had a feeling he would die that means he knew what he would encounter? Just because he felt the mission was obviously dangerous doesn't mean he knew the powers of the pains lol. Your comment adds nothing
@@pepballer6375might not doesn’t mean he know the person was there
@@Enigmaticfigure he knew the Akatsuki leader was there and that's why he said he might not come back
@@Enigmaticfigure I was just commenting on the he just went for retcon if that was the case he wouldn't have summon the frog and gave it the key for the seal he knew damn well he might not have made it out alive I never said he knew what he was going to encounter
I will be honest. I never even heard the notion that Jiraya was ever considered weak . I consider him rly strong and the strongest sanin IF we don't allow for Edo Tensei.
The case for Edo Tensei will be the same as saying no Sage Mode for Jiraiya
We gotta stop treating Pain vs. Jiraiya as a fight about Strength.
The biggest factor in beating Pain was information, and Jiraiya was the one person who could obtain that information while still keeping his head.
He lost because he lacked information. Not because he was too weak, but because he wasn't prepared for everything Pain had to offer. Anyone else at that time would also have struggled to pull it off. Jiraiya is just a victim of power creep, since he was second only to Pain at the time (Obito aside).
I think it's also due to strength, but Pain legit stated he would have won inside of the Rain Village if he knew his secrets
If you want to be technical, Kashin Koji out scales Itachi by defeating jigen and forcing out Isshiki. He used the same move to escape Isshiki that jiraiya used to escape Pain.
No jiraiya was directly stronger than pain.
Pain said he wouldn't have had a chance of winning if JIraiya had knowledge on him.
Manga jiraiya did much better, even despite losing an arm due to a cheap shot, he was more dominant initially against the 3 that he killed, and even after losing an arm in the manga, he still fought them for an unknown amount of time, and killed at least 1 more.
If he went in with prep
1) Wouldn't have ever lost his arm
2) Would know which pain to kill
3) Would have instantly known about their vision trick and acted accordingly
Jiraiya would beat Pain 100/100 times if he knew how Pain worked, as stated by Pain himself.
yeah pain also didnt know about sage mode or genjutsu which is very very important. and in most fights u go up with no information. also itachi is 2nd jiraiya 3rd
@@plavsk There's little reason to assume he didn't know about sage mode or the fact that Jiraiya had the capability of you know, using one of the main fields of jutsu.
Pain literally said he wouldn't have had a chance if jiraiya went in with knowledge, not even a chance, sorry but jiraiya is stronger than pain lol.
Also the genjutsu and not knowing about sage mode didn't actually hurt pain's chances cuz those 3 were revived cuz jiraiya didn't have knowledge, and he lost an arm because of thinking the fight was over cuz he didnt' have knowledge, and he still pushed pain to high or extreme diff.
JIraiya >>> Pain >>> Itachi
Im just trying to understand how dying to PAIN makes you fodder lmaoooo
That's cuz in actuality and practicality, the Paths of Pain is obviously a weapon. The guy controlling it, Nagato is like a weak ass cripple on life support possessing the Rinnegan, literally the eyes of a God.
That's why they consider him fodder. Dude lost to a cripple on life support hiding behind his weapons
@@rudrakshpainuly1294 Most men probably could punch Kim Jong Un/Biden to death, none could survive their nuclear weaponry.
Your point?
@@rudrakshpainuly1294if a “cripple on life support” has the nuclear football? Shit, I’m losing that fight 24/7
You can tell a lot of people looked at the videos thumbnail and started typing without watching it.
Every feat Kakashi has during the war arc tells me that the powerscailing was completely off.
Most of the power scaling in the war arc, even though it got ridiculous at times, I could let it slide. But Kakashi using the Susanoo made me laugh my ass off when I first saw it.
Here's something I don't hear brought up much in defense of Jiraiya: Jiraiya may have only fought against 3 paths, but we know that Nagato splitting his chakra between multiple paths weakens each path, respectively. This is shown when Nagato reverse summons five paths and temporarily shuts them down to use a giant shinra tensei on Konoha. So Jiraiya fighting 3 pains was fighting against stronger versions of those pains than the ones that invaded Konoha.
It's not much, but it's something.
in the manga he pretty much stomped the 3 paths, killed them, then they were resurrected and he was cheap shotted while his guard was down, losing an arm in the process, then with 1 arm against 6 pains, he literally killed at LEAST 1 more of them.
Pain literally said if Jiraiya had knowledge (pain had full knowledge and prep), that Pain wouldn't have even had a chance at victory.
Conversely, it never gets brought up that Kakashi was fighting Pain while pain was simultaneously fighting on 5 other battlefields. Meaning his attention was divided, yet as soon as Pain decided to kill Kakashi, he nearly 1 tapped him.
Kakashi gets more credit than he deserves for that fight(it's still impressive)
The scaling in naruto is so all over the place and more complicated than most shows I've seen
If you wanna take pre retcon into account and from part 1 only, the facts are:
Kisame flat out admits he is inferior to Jiraya
Itachi says the best he (Itachi) can hope for is a stalemate
Both chose not to face Jiraya despite it being a 2v1 and the goal is to capture Naruto. The whole concepts of tailed beats aka needing to seal the 9 tails last is a retcon
Kakashi, even in part 2 has immense respect for Jiraya and considers himself inferior to the sannin. He wondered how Jiraya’s handled pain when Kakashi could barely handle two paths and admitted he needed reinforcements.
Similar to Kakashi, Jiraya’s title, skill and power is well known to many many people in the world.
In part 2, Kabuto stated it’s possible to find his blood on the six paths weapons, with Obito telling him not to “push his luck”
If Jiraya was fodder to these guys, Obito wouldn’t care less about him.
This is you failing to read the series with detail. Kisame makes a comment about the reputation of “The Sannin” against the seven swordsman and is concerned a Sannin might be a daunting task. Kisame then calls Jiraiya “a disappointment” upon meeting him and berates Itachi when they flee and says there was no reason to with how strong Itachi is.
This, coupled with Orochimaru plainly stating Itachi is beyond him, it’s obvious Itachi’s shifty statements were supposed to be questionable.
Orochimaru says in Part 1 he wants Sasuke's body bc he can't hope to get Itachi. Orochimaru and Jiraiya have an even fight later and says while in our weakened states it's still no contest for me, meaning Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya and Orochimaru fears Itachi. Therefore, even in Part 1, Itachi is above Jiraiya.
@@collinleivas9605 that's base jiraiya not sage mode jiraiya
@@Ghost-jq4ey And I'm referring to base Jiraiya in this sense, Sage Jiraiya being above base Orochimaru is fine as he has his own above Sannin form too, that being the Hydra.
@@collinleivas9605 Hydra is not even close to sage mode, also pain > jiraiya > itachi
jiraya really is an underrated dog, he took a blow from 4 tails naruto and had a scar while orochimaru was deadass cut in half
Orochimaru was fighting an adult naruto while jiraiya was fighting kid Naruto
🤡orochi was fighting in his weakest base form without hands.
What people don't realize or maybe don't want to realize, is that Kishimoto clearly intended for Jiraiya and Itachi to be on the same levels (same score on the data books between the 2, so many parallels between both back and forth and so on) but... He failed to portray that properly in the story, maybe if he got revived for the war arc things could change (they would definitely change) but as it stands it's simple not possible for Jiraiya to take on Itachi...
Because of busted power levels
Kishimoto also had Orochimaru who in part 1 is stated to be relative to and even superior to Jiraiya say that “Itachi is stronger than I am”. He literally just says that. Fans should’ve known something was up when Itachi ran away lol.
Yeah but that can be explained by Itachi being a double agent and wanting to not kill anyone so even if that is a retcon, I think Kishimoto covered his bases there and explained it well
Or maybe Jiraiya was just a bad matchup for Itachi? Just because 1 can beat 2 and 2 can beat 3, it doesn't necessarily mean 1 can also beat 3.
@@vernitico itachi is honestly a abd match up for jiriyah. problem with jiriyah is he is not in his full power mode of sage mode. summons are pointless because itachi amateratsu counters any summons. attempting to runaway to get to sage mode also most likely not work because itachi is all about quickly ending fights and is able to analyze situations without underestimating his opponents. he also has nod efense for tsukyomi. and itachii has susano which outright takes no damage for rasengans etc. jiriyah had a better match up vs pain only because pain held back 3 of the pains and sent his 3 weakest pains. and jiriyah had the advantage fo the rain village being a bunch of pipe lines he could hide and run in.
He let himself be killed, Pain says before finishing him in my memory "I don't understand his heart before, however, it stopped beating". To explain because a lot of people won't understand he said no to "Death" I'm coming in 5 minutes let me finish my mission. Mission that is not to kill Pain which very few characters in the Naruverse can do but to understand what his secret is. And Pain says at the end that if Jiraiya had known his secret he would certainly not be here. Also during the 2 years that Naruto trained with Jiraiya the akatsuki never tried to capture Kyubi he does not hesitate to attack entire villages to capture some Kyubi/Achibi tailed demons but an inexperienced kid Naruto with Jiraiya is no for them. If he really wanted to he would have sent 2 teams to see the whole akatsuki but knew it was useless because Jiraiya was there to protect Naruto
One thing you left out: power scale recon from part 1 Naruto to part 2. In part 1 Jiraiya, orichimaru and Minato were among the strongest but in part 2 pain, itachi, madara, Obito and other uchihas were among the strongest
They villans need to be strong or no body will care
Itachi was a horrible spy, he didn’t do nothing for the village really. He actually helped the bad guys more.
He kept Obito away from the village and away from Sasuke,l and once he is dead the first thing Obito does is send Pain to capture Naruto.
@@collinleivas9605wow very nice when he literally let orochimaru attack the village and kill the third hokage the only saving grace of the village.
He didn't do anything to stop Danzo.
He literally couldn't prevent the death of asuma.
Bro literally set sasuke up to the dark path causing him to not only kill itachi but to later destroy the leaf village and kill Naruto.
What good a fucking spy is when people don't even know how the spy is.
@@mhassankhalid3774 first of all you're stupid in your assumptions, no.1 he didn't know Orochimaru attacked the village he probably didn't hear about it till afterward and regarless if he did wouldn't it look super suspicious to leaf and akatsuki alike that itachi is defending the village he supposedly dispises? Also Hiruzen is fodder than Tsunade and Jiraiya which hadn't been introduced because Orochimaur would have been demolished full power 3 v 1. All in all it was far better to leave it be than be suspected by pain and get dog piled by all the akatuski. 2. Itachi may have hated Danzo but he threatened him and basically made him do nothing for 8 years and it was basically set up to where Danzo could never assume power as long as Tsunade lived which he wasn't alive when Pain attacked. No.3 Asuma is nobody to Itachi, what does he care about him and it would just make him look that much worse if he did anything to prevent that battle. What did you want him to do murder Kakazu and Hidan. Plus he most likely knew the leaf would get revenge on the Akatsuki and hold a grudge if they killed or almost killed there own that much more. It was a better play to instigate something early on. No. 4 Itachi didn't know Orochimaru was after Sasuke let alone the sharigan all Orochimaru mentioned in their battle is that he wanted a perfect body that would link him to immortality, his tsukuyomis were to make sasuke hate him which the sharigan's strength is tied to emotion and the stronger that hate the stronger sasuke is and when he invaded the village he knew nothing about the curse mark and found out Kakashi and Sasuke were together so he left him alone knowing that the one other guy with a sharigan was teaching Sasuke and Kakashi was a world renowned shinobi who was very strong he never thought he would turn. also afterwards he made every atempt to free sasuke of orochimaru and curse mark and made him the hero that defeated the clan killer. are you stupid you act like he's all knowing reading the manga with you and can stop everything by simply knowing it without it getting in the way.
Spies do more than just give intel. He’s more like a collusioner or agent or insider.
@@mhassankhalid3774it wasnt itachi job the protect the village from orochimaru tho it was only from the akatsuki and he cant do much to stop danzo, all he did was keep danzo basically caged up when he was alive same as for the akatsuki they were also caged from attacking the village, its only after itachi died danzo started doing his own shit and so does the akatsuki and as for asuma well he deserved to die because of his past, he had a bounty so thats why kakazu was desperate to kill him, asuma wasnt no good guy in the past and yes itachi did fail sasuke which is admitted to because not everyone is perfect but sasuke himself is one of the dumbest characters in the show because why tf would u want to hold a grudge on the entire leaf when majority of the people had nothing to do with the uchiha situation especially the new generation, it would make sense if he only wanted to kill danzo and the 2 elders but sasuke being cursed with dummy plot armor just took it to another level
I think most of the issue with Jiraiya power scaling boils down to people underrating Pain/Nagato, thinking that he's only a tier or two above Itachi, when in reality Pain is in a league of its own, let's me explain.
If Jiraiya was retconed into being "weak" in shippuden, then Nagato got retconed into being "stronger" in the war arc to balance that out, because he was stomping KCM1 Naruto and Killer Be with ease in a 2 vs 1 battle, the battle was so one-sided that edo Itachi had to change sides and aid them in a 3 on 1 fight just to EVEN the playfield, even though they knew the full extent of Nagato's rinnegan abilities it didn't matter, so no wonder Jiraiya got beat alone and with no intel, it just makes sense specially in hindsight.
I'm not implying that Jiraiya is Itachi's tier or whatever, but he was still more dangerous than people give him credit to, Itachi being wary of Jiraiya mirrors Obito being wary of Itachi, it's not that Obito thinks Itachi could beat him, it's just that he rather not risk it because one wrong move and it could be the end of him
You’re forgetting that early in that exchange Nagato got buffed by absorbing Bee’s chakra. I’m not taking him almost killing Naruto and Bee away but there’s a difference between that Nagato and the 6 pains
I wouldn’t say Itachi changing sides evened things out. Susano’o and Amaterasu shut down anything he could do except the CT and after they got out of that he was defeated with relative ease. One could argue he didn’t necessarily need Naruto and Bee to get out of CT but rather requested their assistance for efficiency. And the Edo Itachi is weaker than his alive self outside of infinite stamina. Which is a misconception I often see, Itachi doesn’t have bad stamina he was almost blind against Sasuke and still had enough energy for a full fight
The thing is, Kakashi was actually doing pretty damn good against pain.
Moreover 6 tails was actually just destroying pain until pain pulled out shinra tensei.
Evermore we already know that Jiraya had fought 4 tails. And that was probably base holding back Jiraya as he didn't want to hurt Naruto.
Just the fact that a prep time SAGE JIRAYA couldn't even tickle pains balls is just insane when just 6 tails bodied him
Moreover itachi literally fought the 2 strongest paths and Jiraya fought the 3 weakest
@@mhassankhalid3774 I think you meant Kakashi fought the 2 strongest paths
@@mhassankhalid3774 ... Was destroying the singular, fatigued path of pain. All 6 paths at full power like the ones Jiraya fought would kind of just unconditionally beat 6 tails naruto.
@@mhassankhalid3774 jiraiya didnt FIGHT four tails,he attemped to SUPRESS four tails(which he actually did)...there is a difference
Jiraya one shot the 3 paths with his genjutsu and killed one path twice. He was no diffed by the 6 paths because he got ambushed after defeating multiple paths. Pain even said if he knew how his ability worked he would of won.
Logically Jiraiya would have no counter to the Deva Path's strongest techniques. However Nagato probably wouldn't have gone all out since he was in the Rain Village.
@@augustusfreeman4032 Jiraiya has lot of long range attacks. 5 second window is more than enough to take down Deva path.
@@KareemLaLa10the narrative of the Pain Arc quite literally supports the opposite of Jiraiya scaling to Pain due to Naruto training to surpass him in order to defeat Pain
@@HNHDebates Naruto trained to Get sage mode.
Naruto did surpass Both Jiraiya and Minato in terms Sage mode.
That doesn't mean Sage mode Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya or Minato.
Jiraiya > Alive Minato > Sage Naruto
Naruto with help + terrain advantage + all the Info ( info advantage since Pain didn't know Naruto's abilities ) + plot Armour + Kurama rampage etc. Barely beat a Weakened Pain.
While Jiraiya with No help , No info , terrain disadvantage , Info disadvantage ( Pain knew Jiraiya's abilities and weakeneses ) , Plot nerfs etc. Almost beat Pain.
And pain himself said Jiraiya would have beat him if he had info.
The narrative always said Jiraiya was superior.
@@KareemLaLa10 This is just blatantly wrong.
You cannot provide any sort of basis for Jiraiya being over Alive Minato, Tsunade is saying Naruto is training to surpass Jiraiya in order to defeat Pain, what do you think the narrative implication is there?
Oh also Jiraiya literally admitted he would've lost to 3 paths in a Taijutsu battle, he almost beat them with Genjutsu, sure.
Yeah Kishi himself put Jiraya on the same level as Itachi in the data book so he’s pretty strong. Even Pain said if he figured out his secret he would have won. Also Jiraya has barrier ninjutsu where he can fight Itachi without looking at him, and he straight up sealed the Amaterasu no problem. Jiraya would body Kisame, that’s a stupid argument. If kisame used Samahada on sage mode energy he’d become a Toad like one of the pains, and on top of that his summonings are way stronger
Two problems with this. Jiraiya DID seal amaterasu, yes, but he didn't have the technique ready. He had to open a blank scroll, write on it, do some signs, and hit the ground. He ain't doing all that while burning to death. Even if he tried Itachi wouldn't just sit there idly and watch him do it. He'd burn the scroll, or throw a kunai at it.
Technically sage mode energy wouldn't do anything to Kisame, as it's the sword itself that absorbs the energy. At worst he'd only lose the sword. Even if you want to account for him fusing with the sword, Pain needed to absorb all of Naruto's sage chakra twice before transforming. For a guy called the tailless tailed beast, and needed Guy to go to the 6th gate just to defeat a 30% clone of his and the 7th to beat him when he didn't have Samehada, I think he'd handle sage chakra just fine.
@@kyuubinaruto17 according to what we can see in Naruto/boruto amaterasu is very slow to burn the target, so I don t see problem for jiraya to take the scroll.
he ONLY defeated 3 paths of pain?...you serious?
yeah he makes it sound like doing that is easy, lmao.
@@mihaimercenarul7467 yes but he beat the 3 non combatant pains that die in a few hits. one did summons. one only absorbs chakra. ands the 3rd one that can absorbs souls iirc. thats why it sounds easier.
He beat 3 weak as shit pains. Animal path wasn’t even summoning animals in their 3 v 1 fight.
@@Bloooo95 i heard the video-man himself,dont you think that each of these weak ass paths cook up a jonin each?and they re way stronger when fighting together...im just saying just because you dont beat itachi doesnt mean you re fodder lmao
@@Bloooo95 and jiriyah had the help of two sage toads that are powerful than most ninja on his shoulder too.
4:05 tbf jiraya actually fought 6 paths with one less arm and was able to not only not die but actually kill the animal path
People are quick to forget that when Jiraiya fought against pain. 1: he didn't know how many there were. 2. He wasn't fighting to his max, because he was also trying to gather as much intel on pain as possible. 3. He was also trying to keep collateral damage/deaths down. 4. He was also shocked to see familiar faces of people he fought in the mist of battle. Whoever this guy is on this channel clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. 😂
Fr🙌
This guy Always Bust on Jiraiya.
And overrate Sasuke
@@KareemLaLa10he doesn't overrated Sasuke but he does underrated jiryara
Bro what are you on? When in the series do characters get a thorough run down and explanation of the opponent's abilities before a fight. Shinobi are supposed to adapt and overcome unique opponents. Besides Pain also was trying to keep damage to a minimum he could have used his Almighty push or Chibaku Tensai but he chose not to and its Jiraiya's fault for not going full power when seeing the Rinnegan.
@@rohan7969 Its not about Info about abilities bruh 🤦
FYI : Naruto got full info on abilities.
Nagato knew weaknesses of Jiraiya and how to counter his Strongest attacks. While Jiraiya has no idea about Pain's abilities🤷🏻
:( if you want to know how much does knowing the weakness of the opponent matters , Think about how Jiraiya literally One shotted Konan while Konan almost Killed Obito and forced him to use izanagi ).
And Jiraiya did go to sage mode when he saw Rinnegan , even though his base was handling things pretty well.
Jiraiya did beat 3 Pain simultaneously at their own turf with no info. Which is a dream for most Ninja ( including Most Kage ).
Jutsu getting absorbed , Taijutsu gets blocked with Shared Vision , Soul gets ripped in close combat , Massive summoning animals speeding onto you etc.
Jiraiya lost that fight because he didn't know what to do🙌
He can kill pain , But they come back without any damage.
They werw literally immortal.
He could have easily escaped but knew that if he didn't find the secret of pain , Pain would be unstoppable.
And he did find the secret and relay that onto Naruto.
Which was the reason Naruto was able remove Chakra rods form their body and Chakra down Nagato
@@rohan7969 looks like I didn't have to explain it to you
The thing with jiraiya is that he barley fights and when he does its agaisnt top tier fighters.
The thing is that tobirama and jiraya are gay and itachi and minato give them pedigree everyday
Edit-triggered gay jiraya fans crying😭😭😭😭
@@SyedAli-gl7jqSmartest Itachi fan
@@SyedAli-gl7jqmidtachi*
@@SyedAli-gl7jq both of them slams midtachi
@@orochimaruprmidruchimaru who is itachi's victim
Jiraiya is who Naruto would be if he wasn't a reincarnation bonded with the Nine Tails.
jiraiya vs the 4 tails, he probably couldnt activate sage mode in time and the 9 tails chakara can do some pretty surprising things if u dont know much about it. he cud have dodged an arm but then another arm pops out. also orochimaru was ripped in half and jiraiya was able to survive. i know orochimaru has hacks but thats pretty good for jiraiya's durability.
I believe Jiraya never really showed his full potential, even against pain 🤷♂️, maybe Itachi knew about his FULL potential and thats why he didn’t go against him.
Bruh Jiraiya was wide open for Tsukuyumi or Amaterasu ,, Itachi could have ended him on the spot in one sec exactly like he did orochimaru but he didn't do anything except hold Kisame back and lie to him to scare him off to leave peacefully without killing important leaf shinobi
Are we going to ignore the fact that Pain literally said that Jiraiya would have beaten him If he had the Intel about How Pain's abilities work from the start?
Naruto literally went in with full Intel against a fatigued Pain and only won because of Kurama
Of course he's gonna ignore that.
@@junior523 pain said that in respect to his master that statement is contradicted bc pain said that Naruto was the strongest opponent he fought so Naruto>jiraya he indirectly says it and pain is stronger than Naruto as he needed kurama to win so pain>sm Naruto>jiraya kishimoto contradicted past statements many times
Dude He was refering to NAGATO himself ! If jiraya knew the "secret" He would go after Nagato. He never said He was gonna defeat all paths
To make it workout I would say Jiraya was bluffing a lot of the time and made himself above his age and strength. He is the ultimate jester and serves to give confidence to his students as they find their own inner strength.
Many wrong points in this video. For starters, no, Pain Arc Kakashi would not beat Jiriaya. Kakashi had help from Choji and Choza in that fight. They trapped Tendo Pain and then Kakashi almost landed his Raikiri.
Yeah I think pain arc Jiraiya and Kakashi are pretty close to each other in strength, if anything Jiraiya is stronger
@@donovan4222 I agree. By the Pain Arc I think Kakashi was pretty close to Base Jiraiya or Base Tsunade level.
@@hiteshsharma1132 Yeah Kakashi even makes a remark when fighting pain about how unbelievable it is to him that Jiraiya fought all 6 paths at once, kind of implying he sees Jiraiya as stronger than himself
@@donovan4222even though jiraiya didn't fight them all at once, he got stomped when they all arrived
@@Frozone-qu7dp the whole village got stomped when all 6 attacked. We are talking about 1 man.
The notion jiraiya is weak because he lost a 6v1 against one of the strongest characters in the verse is just silly
"This is not an Itachi worshipping video"
_Talks about Itachi damn near more than the character that's being discussed_
The only part I disagree with is the part of "Itachi destroyed Nagato". Nah, Nagato easy wins that, the only way for Itachi to win is to use a deus ex machina like the totsuka blade (and even then...).
I don't think totsuka can seal moving targets,orochimaru only got sealed cause he was stuck in that snake,a person who can move freely can just use their biggest jutsu to counter or avoid it.
Yea, this guy clearly simps for the uchihas. I'm an Itachi fan myself, but this guy always disrespects Jiraya and worships lord Sasuke
He got jumped by 6 dead people he knew
With the powers of the rinnegan
Its not like the deva path is so much stronger than the animal path
The only difference is abilites
I will say that jiraiya was weaker than he portrays
But not by a crazy amount
Id argue his experience plays into his legendary title
But Jiraiya was never fodder?
Against Orochimaru: Jiraiya was drugged and was at 30% of his total power and facing one of the strongest dudes in the series.
Against Itachi and Kisame: Jiraiya made them run and forced Itachi to use Amaterasu, one of Itachi's best techniques while Jiraiya just used one regular jutsu.
Against 4 tailed Naruto: Jiraiya obviously doesn't want to kill Naruto, nor did he have advanced Jinchuriki sealing techniques as the plot Yamato had. Also Jiraiya isn't Orochimaru who can regenerate from any wound. So who knows for how long Jiraiya fought Naruto 4 tails while holding back.
Against Konan: Jiraiya EASILY defeated Konan, a girl that almost killed plot armor Obito and destroyed many ninjas in Konoha.
Against 3 Pain: Jiraiya had difficulties against 3 Pain, AS ANYONE WOULD, but he was able to win the fight high diff, without any previous info on them.
Against the full might of the six Paths of Pain: Obviously Jiraiya lost but remember everything started with a cheap shot to Jiraiya that he never expected. Despite Six Paths of Pain very low diff him, Jiraiya was able to defeat one of them, and transport him to konoha. Also while near death he was able to send a message which was a HUGE KEY to deal with the Pains.
Without Jiraiya, Konoha would have falled with Naruto in it. So...the question is...... HOW IS JIRAIYA FODDER AGAIN?
Konan had prep time against Obito but I agree with the rest
Being a ninja is also about information and special circumstances. When it comes to combat experience and information at hand. Third hokage surpasses them all and was called the professor for a reason.
In my opinion:
The Biggest mistake is they made Jiraiya Sage mode imperfect. For a Ninja that has Title a of "Toad Sage"
They should made Naruto imperfect the Sage Mode if they are planning to give more Naruto new forms.
Plus i like the concept of Sage mode transform into more Animals.
Than having an Eyeshadow.
Yeah I straight up despise the fact Naruto just gets eyeliner and frog eyes in sage mode. When he has the KCM cloak you can't even tell he is in sage mode unless it zooms in on his eyes. He should have changed way more physically.
Generally speaking the sannin were so hyped and considered the strongest in the verse in part 1 but in part 2 they seem much weaker, they got outshined by newer characters and got suprased by past characters (Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Guy, Sakura,) And all of these characters are complete fodder in boruto
Also bear in mind that Kishimoto doesn't sit around with power scaling notes, and a scientific sense of how strong the characters are. Jiraiya struggling with the Animal Path seems to be less Kishimoto saying 'Jiraiya struggled with dudes Naruto could oneshot', and more like early game setup for the reveal that Pain was 6 entire dudes, and that Jiraiya hadn't scratched the surface.
What I LOVE about Jiraiya regardless of the story or writing is the fact that HE IS A REGULAR GUY! He is more of a Naruto than Naruto himself.
He was trained by third and Fukusaku, but He was an orphan boy with no kekkei genkai, never stole kekkei genkai like Danzo, Orochimaru and 99% of relevant characters. He actually was a regular dude who trained himself into being absolute unit and giving PAIN issues while Pain had ALL advantages and initiative going for him.
There are plenty of discrepancies between Part 1 and Shippuden. It's so easy to just say "ah, it's another retcon because it wasn't like this in Part 1!"
But, with the Sannin, I do think that this is the case.
They were pretty much the strongest characters in Part 1, apart from the Hokage (which is what Tsunade becomes anyway; and they are all supposed to be Kage-level, which was basically the highest level at that point. The Bijuu were also a retcon and were more of a rare exception, but it was possible for Kage to take them on)
And the Akatsuki too, but they were pretty much a mystery at that point. And they still make a big deal about them in Shippuden, at least before Pain shows up.
I honestly feel like they were yeeted to the wayside a bit too quickly. I would have preferred if they all remained at least relevant throughout the series, even if their students do surpass them in their teens while the Sannin have about a lifetime of experience...
They're also all kind of washed up at various points of the story, even though they were considered legendary in Part 1.
So yes, I do think it's a retcon, just as Minato was retconned into no longer being the strongest Kage... and Jiraiya trained him. So Jiraiya's standing suffered as a result.
Sasuke: I’m gonna restore my clan”
Then goes on to have 1 daughter
Right before Itachi and kisame do that talk. Orochimaru says Itachi is stronger than him and Orochimaru was probably stronger than jiraya so I think itachi was just tricking Kisame in order to delay naruto's capture
Jihraya has never been on of the most powerful but he is known for being a good strategist, he can win with underhandedethons from unorthodox techniques which I feel should have been shown more and expand on the ninja side of the story.
you can say hiruzen is stronger than oruchimaru 20 times dosnt make it right. hiruzen lost against orochimaru and what you mean with "he almost won" is "he almost killed himself to also kill orochimaru" which wouldnt be a win it would be a draw. also BASE jiraiya was still STRONGER then the 4tails HE WON against the 4tails.
Fr 🙌
This guy has no idea what he is talking About
Every other time a master has to fight there student they get a nerf except Jiraiya apparently
@@codbeast914 Jiraiya being serious would have killed Naruto there.
But writer had to show Nine tails power somehow.
Kids think 4 tails Naruto beat jiraiya
I have always have the question, where was it ever stated that the bodies of the Pains have any difference besides the abilities, cause the whole talk about Jiraiya fighting the weakest pains is crazy.
The Paths are based off of the 6 Samsaric Realms: Neraka is the lowest, then Preta, Animal, Human, Asura, and finally Deva as the strongest. Personally id say the Animal Path is the 3rd strongest Path, the one's Jiriaya fights aren't the strongest ones as Deva is clearly presented as the strongest, Asura aids him so he has to be next and that just leaves the Neraka Path which sending out to fight is stupid when he is the only one that can revive the others.
Umm… the abilities split across the Pains aren’t equal in strength. Deva Path destroyed Konoha with one Shinra Tensei. Meanwhile, the Preta Path has no offensive ability. Beating Preta Path is not remotely impressive when compared to beating the Deva Path.
@@Bloooo95 "besides the abilities" was clearly stated in the comment. If the bodies have the same physical strength then the whole "Jiraiya defeated the weakest pains" is void.
@@collinleivas9605 nice, where was stated within the Naruto verse that the physical strength of each body varies tho?
@@jackgonahieu4999 Konoharmu can defeat (but not kill) the Neraka Path with a Rasengan whereas the Preta Path can catch Sage Jiraiya's Massive Rasengan and the Asura Path survived getting crushed by Choza's giant fists.
"He only killed three of the paths of Pain" meanwhile a whole village wasn't able to kill more than two 😂😂😂
Shippuden just ruimed the sannin to be honest. In part 1 they were top tier shinnobi who were only rivaled by each other and the hokages
Powercreep is a bitch man.
I agree with you and this why i don't like boruto. Shinobis in Naruto part 1 that were considered Very strong are now completely fodder part 2 characters that were also considered legendary now seem completely out scaled and weak. I get that characters should become stronger as the show goes on but it seems like all the hype past characters once had has no meaning
This is like calling the superman weak because he lost to Darkseid
The reason itachi and kisame escaped was because of his summons even itachi wouldn't want to fight an army of todes
I mostly agree, but I do think you're downplaying his sage mode, if Jiraiya uses the frogs sing illusion Itachi goes down, Itachi needed sasuke to break out from the Kabuto illusion. Not that hanging on would be that easy for Jiraiya but I think He could.
It makes no sense to ignore the author speaking through characters. Itachi saying they both would die means exactly that. Kisame saying he cant beat him means that. Pain saying jiraiya would win means that. Fighting the pain that negates all ninjitsu and the pain that summons is the feat. Itachi doesnt have the chakra to fight summonings and ninjutsu. Jiraiya was always stronger than orochimaru and was always implied to be holding back with no killing intent to show naruto and sasuke future if naruto didnt break the trend.
normally yes. until you realize it was retconned which was part of the talking points in this video. after the fight itachi vs sauske in shippuden. obito talks about that day and itachi wasnt there to fight and avoided killing people. he was only there to remind danzo of thier deal. he was a secret agent for the leaf. multiple people that day state itachi was acting weird. like kakshi stating why didnt itachi just kill me pointing out tiachi was out of character since he knew how itachi was during their time in the anbu. itachi would kill without hesitation but spared kakshi randomly. in shippuden itachi by feats massively outweighed jiriyah. same as itahci. now jiriyah is a goated character and so well written. but by shippuden itachi and kisame are stronger than him.
Orochimaru's experimentation on himself along with his immortality make him stronger on default,but on base skills alone without added buffs then Jiraya is better.
@raiden3013 they only out feat him because he had only 1 fight against their boss that stated himself jiraiya would win against him. Jiraiya still didn't fear itachi or kisame and he clearly knew them. I don't see a retcon anywhere.
You say not to ignore author intent and then choose to ignore Orochimaru said right before that statement that Itachi was MUCH more powerful than me, in an arc where Jiraiya admits he wasn’t strong enough to stop Orochimaru. 💀
It was very obvious something else was going on.
@Bloooo95 itachi is stronger than orochimaru. Jiraiya is too, but he isn't strong enough to drag him back to village. He never intended to kill orochimaru.
After watching the most recent rewriting Naruto video, and seeing some of the comments, seems like somebody cant take criticism 😮
Yeah he's a great writer but he can't handle criticism. He made Sasuke way stronger than he was in Shippuden and made Jiraiya lose every fight. His personal bias is clearly visible.
@@hiteshsharma1132 yeah, I agree, it's up to him honestly which character he doesn't like, and how he write his story, as long as he honest about it, and don't present his bias as a fact, and telling that his story is a "better" version of Naruto, when it's just another story,
Jiraiya is one of the most important characters to the story. He is not fodder.
I think if Jiraiya was given one or two fights that showcased his abilities with a win we wouldn't have felt somewhat cheated when he lost to Pain; however you could argue that losing but still winning is the main message behind his character as Dygo pointed out.
Still hurts to this day he died but it makes sense on more than just simply powerscale.
He did win against Konan
@@hiteshsharma1132 he did by technique and outsmarted her for sure but I mean a full scale fight.
@@hiteshsharma1132it's moreso displayed as an antifeat for Konan either way, not a feat for Jiraiya
@@HNHDebates Taking down a Kage-level character like Konan in seconds is absolutely a feat for Jiraiya.
@@hiteshsharma1132 Kage level is such a broad term and smth Jiraiya already reached so I'm not even gonna talk about that, but I'm aware it's a feat for Jiraiya. I'm saying it's moreso portrayed as an antifeat for Konan though, not as if it's super impressive Jiraiya can subdue Konan
Kakashi hypes up Jiraya and considers him superior to himself.
Kakashi knows Jiraya’s skill and power yet people wanna act like Kakashi is stronger than the Sannin
Yea Kakashi does reach a level on par with the Sannin imo by the end of part 2 but in part 1, he is “fodder” to them. The guy was terrified of Orochimaru
Orochimaru also never calls Jiraya weak nor underestimates him.
People say this due to the 4 tails battle that Orochimaru did “better”.
In some ways he did. But as we saw unlike Jiraya, Orochimaru not only was going for the kill but has his OP and unique substitution jutsu, that literally saved him from death a handful of times in that fight with 4 tails. Other than that, he couldn’t hurt 4 tails at all.
The OP sub is the reason Orochimaru survived, not cuz he is “stronger” than Jiraya
Also, if anything, that just proves Jiraya is superior since he survived against 4 tails with no “cheat” that can prevent his death. Jiraya survived with “1 life” while Orochimaru had resets
Outside of anime filler, we don’t have much detail with how Jiraya handled 4 tails.
Kakashi was fodder for them in part 1 surpassed then in war arc and his hokage self can take them on all the same time easily
5:58 At this time Orochimaru was not trying to kill Itachi he wanted to take over his body. If Orochimaru wants to kill someone without getting tired himself he "can't summon one of the 2nd Hokage or both" or another ninja from his undead arsenal. Orochimaru can make himself pretty much any character if he really wanted to. You know many who could handle the 2nd Hokage even at 50% capacity.
Yet Orochimaru is so scared of Itachi's strength that he REFUSES to ever try to reconcile with the Akatsuki
Jiraiya has never been a fodder. He's very powerful, arguably the strongest of all Sannin.
He defeated 50% of Pain with ZERO knowledge of Pain's power. I'm not saying Jiraiya will beat Pain, but the genjutsu will defeat ALL SIX Pains if they're hit together.
He beats Hebi Sasuke and Kisame.
Kisame's Water Bubble's size is nothing compared to Toad Flame Bomb's that he used with Gamabunta in Part 1. Samehada hates fire and will leave Kisame if forced to keep absorbing fire.
Jiraya is fodder compared to tsunade,naruto era orochimaru,kisame,sick itachi,killer bee,minato,pain and essentially every high kage level character he is not weak it is just that other high kage level characters are too strong for him
@@SyedAli-gl7jq No. Sage Jiraiya beats Tsunade, Orochimaru, and Kisame.
@@ShadowbannedAccounttsunade and orochimaru can beat him stop underrating those 2 and kisame is also underrated
@@SyedAli-gl7jq orochimaru and kisame are definetly beating him,but not tsunade
@@xxxtimeghostxxxtsunade is underrated bro she is clearly stronger than jiraya cause in the war arc she was healing everyone and fighting madara jiraya has not done anything that can beat that feat
bro made the third hokage look as he was kinda strong
Sorry man, but this video is just wrong. Itachi would have lost against pain as well...
But still jiraya is fodder
nah… only 2 out her people in the village had a chance of killing at least 1. Kakashi and Naruto, Naruto bodied all of them as we all know and then Kakashi kinda killed 1 but not even really. So that make jiraiya killing, so he’s stronger than anyone else in the village beside Naruto.
@@Puddiinfacetsunade as well
Jiraiya has some hard counters to itachi. Any of the frog summons could null any genjutsu. He knows itachi and his powers. He looked him straight in the eyes because he didn't care, he was prepared, even if the audience didn't know. Itachi was a master at strategy and genjustu. If you take away his genjutsu, you only have strategy. Running was the only option. People always wonder how some legendary figures die to less powerful people, and its because everyone know their powers and prepares for them.
The Sannin are underrated tbh
Overrated bc they were hyped up for hanzo and itachi,killer bee,minato,kisame,tobirama,pain,7th gates guy all of them far surpass the sanin I am talking about naruto era orochimaru btw people assume sanin are as strong as minato or pain but those shinobi I named are stronger than sanins
to be fair, JUMP-THAT-BITCH no jutsu is not that easy to fight against
he wasnt using sage mode in kurama 4 tails fight that might be the reason why he got injured heavly
Jiriya fought against four tails Naruto while he was in base, he didn’t have time to go sage mode
Didn't pain say that if Jiraiya knew his secret he would have defeated him? You're doing the J man dirty here.
itts ebcause it make sno sense. even if jiriyah knew nagastos secret. hwo would he actually ahve defeated pain? by feats which is the best way of scaling characters jiriyah falls short to a lot of staments. its not doing him dirty its jsut jiriyah has poor portrayals or there a lot fo feats that contradict things said about him. he is still one of the best naruto characters created.
How would knowing Nagato is controlling the Pains from afar help him beat them in a fight? It might help Jiraiya know to not engage with them and try to kill Nagato’s decrepit body. Sure. But that’s not fighting the Pains directly.
@@Bloooo95 If he knew, he wouldn't even have gone to the Rain in the first place. He would scout the main body and kill him. It's not a tournament, you don't have to win a 1v6 for fun.
Jiraiya being able to keep up with the otsutsuki alien in Boruto kills the downplay lol
Itachi did not destroy Nagato, Nagato was under control and he had help to land a hit with a special blade lol come on now
5 mins in and I alr disagree with your thoughts 💀
Honestly in my opinion in a 1v1 jiraya beats every pain except tendo .....but if it's 5 v 1 then i guess jiraya has 70-80% chance of winning
TBH Jiraya may not be strong enough to defeat Itachi or Madara, but the fact that he lasted as long as he did against Pain is a feat all on its own. The same Pain wiped out the entire village after that, with only the people with plot armor even coming close to fighting against him. Even Kakashi died in that battle! So saying that Jiraya is weak because he couldn't beat Pain is like saying I'm not strong because I can't lift a bus over my head.
Itachi would go blind to fight Jiraiya once. That’s why he ran.
@@HC-gm4fo Not sure what that has to do with my comment, but It makes sense. Perhaps Itachi believed he'd need his Sharingan to beat Jiraya and didn't want to use it up because he wanted to save it for Sasuke.
bro all itachi got to do is look at that clown
@@onepieceazz Bruh had to run from and use ms for toad mouth trap, Jiraiya’s opening move. Lol
Need ms for bring down the house.
Need ms for all of Gamabunta’s moves
Jiraya legit butt water. compare him all of itachi fight to his
Itachi beaten orochimaru on two separate occasions
Faught a kage lvl ninja like sasuke(beaten deidra) and made look weak while being dead on his feet
Carried naruto and kiler bee in their agaisnt nagato
Carried sasuke with their fight against sage kabuto
What does jiraiya have in comparison?getting oneshotted by 4 tailed naruto the same naruto orochimaru held his own against
Bearly able to fight 3 of weakest paths of pain lmao
In comparison jiraiya buttcheeks
Jiraiya stumbled upon a high level boss early in the walk-through
This video was illuminating for me. This make naruto's sage mode being way more powerful than Jiraya's logical. I still think that Naruto's sage training timeskip should be longer, to emphasize the difficulty of attaining it, to give the story a breathing room and to give key secondary characters some sdevelopment.
Yeah, about the fact that Pain said Jiraiya would’ve won against him if he had intel and Naruto lost in Sage Mode with intel sto Jiraiya was AT LEAST on par with Naruto
@@bencri6248Naruto fought all the pains while jiraiya only fought a few pains that where also not going all out from the beginning because they fought their teacher.
I also think pains statement that jiraiya could have won if he knew their secret is more so to mean all the body's could have gotten trapped in the frog song if jiraiya knew there where 6 body's. Or if jiraiya knew that he only needed to kill the cripled real body.
Just like obito saying itachi could have killed obito if he knew his secret would probably just be talking about kamui/izanagi and not that itachi would actually win in a battle
Even pain said that jiraya would have beat him if he knew his secret, so kishimoto was litterly saying if jiraya had the same intel on nagato as nagato did on him he would have lost to jiriya not to mention he also fought konan during that fight.
IMAGINE IF PAIN FOUGHT JIRAIYA OUTSIDE OF THE RAIN VILLAGE. One Giant almighty push. GG Planetery deviation. GG Soul Snatch. GG LETS BE REAL - Pain was hardly trying because he couldn’t use any of his big moves AND STILL BODY BAGGED Big J. The facts ARE THE FACT.
Even Nagato himself said that if it wasn't for his secret Jiraiya would have killed him.
yeah. If Jiraiya knew Nagato kept the pain bodies in hybernation he could have destroyed them without a fight. Not a big deal.
Idk why yall can't understand that styles make fights, Tsunade is physically the strongest sannin yet she wouldn't be able to do much against Pain, neither would Orochiramu due to the summonings. Tsunade and Orochiramu have one summon each apparently while Jiraiya has a bunch. And neither Orochiramu nor Jiraiya would do much against Madara. I do agree however that Jiraiya feels dissappointing and that's partly due to Itachi's power being retconned, i mean Kabuto literally had a counter measure for genjutsu and still got trapped, fvck that.
Tsunade and orochimaru are equally strong in naruto and jiraya is weaker than both
@@SyedAli-gl7jq no. Multiple times stated that the Sannins are equally as strong. Tsunade being the physically strongest, Orochiramu the fastest and most durable and Jiraiya the most versatile one.
@@jackgonahieu4999 that is only in part 1 bro but later on we saw a power creep orochimaru and tsunade got stronger with time
@@SyedAli-gl7jq no, theres no powercreep. Orochiramu was sealed most part of Shippuden, what tf are you on? Lol.
@@jackgonahieu4999 tsunade with 100 healings and orochimaru with his snake form there is power creep
Minato wasn't supposed to be the strongest Hokage originally.
Yeah i usally like your vids but come on you called him fodder for losing to full power pain?
Put the blunt down mate. No way you called the Asura path “one of the two strongest paths”
Jariya has such a strange way of being written. Taught minato when he was younger yet Naruto basically got thr anko treatment where they learned stuff they probably already could have gotten naturally
Naruto could have gotten that spike shield to act as a defense or cool spike naruto barrage where it would up his damage.
Heck i think kakashi taught Naruto more in the short time he had like his element which somehow jariya left out as i doubt trying to control the 9 tails chakra took years to give up on.
If i had to compare this with other anime masters. Kisuke from bleach not teaching ichigo makes sense as Ichigo needed battle skill to fight thr shinigami while reileigh in one piece taught luffy the basics of haki which is an enormous step up too. Jariya had way more rime than these two yet did so much less than most of the sensei and other anime masters
Tsunade,pain and sasuke are extremely underrated characters but they are actually one of the top 5 best written characters in naruto in my opinion they just don't get enough credit like minato and jiraya get for instance
@@SyedAli-gl7jq sasuke is emo garbage
@@asuraofwrathhahaha, oh you're serious
Jiraiya never wanted to Make Naruto really strong by training.
He did that to Minato and Konan , Nagato , Yahiko etc.
Teaching Konan , Nagato and Yahiko when they had no idea about Chakra use and make Them Jonin lvl at least is a bigger feat than Any of the Teachers you just mentioned.
He Taught Naruto his Ninja way.
And Basic Chakra Mastery and Jutsu.
He also taught Naruto Top tier Taijutsu ( which Naruto lacked very much in Part 1 )
He taught Naruto how to fight strategically and Tactically.
Part 2 base Naruto was outplaying Kakashi to an extent.
But Jiraiya's main goal was To control Kurama Chakra.
With his help , Naruto was able to pull out Kurama Chakra whenever he wanted. And could control it Upto 3 tails
Jiriya clearly said he was surprised the 4 tails came out. Cuz he was point blank. He was at naruto stomach weakened the seal and then bam 4 tails fucking nukes him. So jiryia took a point blank hit from 4 tails cloak. While snake boi fought 4 tail cloak from a range battle. Not hand to hand. Which would utter destroy snake.
Jiraiya slams kisame
Kisame wins low diff
@@SyedAli-gl7jqLmao no, Kisame would die the moment he tried absorbing sage Chakra
@@Nemesis_T-Type kisame one shots with shark missile
@@SyedAli-gl7jq You mean the same Jutsu base Guy dodged during the Kazekage rescue arc and countered a billion of during the War Arc? Yeah, Sage Mode Jiraiya is never once getting hit by it
@@SyedAli-gl7jq iatchi tards strike again
What a minute, Itachi was 13 when he committed the Uchiha massacre?! Bro looked like a full grown man, lol.
he was 13
First of for a RUclipsr who is usually Meta in his analysis I don't understand how you missed this....in most stories even if they are earlier shown to be at the same level, by the end the opponent of the main character usually scales stronger than the mentor of the main character.
In Naruto there is a slight twist, Jiraya is Naruto's mentor while Itachi is Sasuke's opponent. These are two different MCs but they are always relative to each other. So, simply for writing reasons mentors like Jiraya, Orochimaru, etc will always be nerfed relative to main opponents like Pain and Itachi. Speed, strength and stamina of characters differ widely not based on power levels but based on story demands. Same goes for other abilities, for eg. You could easily argue that since Jiraya is constantly absorbing chakra in his Sage mode (as opposed to just when standing still like Naruto) he would be a hard counter to Genjutsu attacks since they are broken by receiving outside chakra. Similarly, you could argue that in their peak form Jiraya has much better stamina than Itachi and can easily maintain his Sage mode much longer than Itachi could maintain his MS abilities so, Jiraya could make it a battle of attrition and win.
I mainly see Jiraiya being low balled
Pain Arc Kakashi has a big chance chance of defeating Jiraiya? Lmao
Hokage kakashi vs jiraya is debatable I think jiraya wins high diff bc kakashi will run out of chakra
Okay as long as you're not talking about ln Kakashi that's fine @@SyedAli-gl7jq
A filler flashback they added in the anime had Kisame say to Itachi as they were running away from Jiraiya "We could've won that fight"
This was actually in the manga originally. The anime changed it when they first animated the scene because they probably were confused by what Kishimoto was going for. In the original manga, Kisame says, “Why are we running away? With your power…”
That means Orochimaru
…. No… Kisame plainly says Itachi could have beat Jiraiya after they encounter him. Reread the series.
@@Bloooo95 Nope. Kisame thought Itachi can go toe to toe with him.
While he himself thinks He can't even be a match
Jiraiya would have beat Pain with intel
Sometimes I like his videos for speaking without fear. Like for example topics when it comes to Obito is on point. But sometimes he just likes to go opposite so he would get the attention.
Just because Itachi fought Sasuke while sick doesn't mean Orochimaru is weak for not being able to walk while sick, for one we don't even know if they had the same sickness, that is not indicative of Sasuke being close to Orochimaru in power if he were healthy, in fact Karin directly says Sasuke's performance against Deidara is pathetic for someone who is supposed to have beaten Orochimaru, indicating Orochimaru would have stomped Deidara (Sasori also scales below him because of how Sasuke and 4 tails Naruto stomped Sakura, who managed to give Sasori a decent fight with Chiyo's help, and Naruto and Sasuke scale below a healthy Orochimaru).
Deidara is blatantly way above Kakuzu because Naruto during the Kakuzu fight is still trying to catch up to Sasuke's strenght, so Orochimaru would beat Kakuzu, Hidan, Asuma, and would beat Kakashi as well given his performance against Kakuzu, as Kakashi and Kakuzu were in a similar league,so it goes to show how that Jiraiya, who is relative to Orochimaru, would perform similarly to Kakashi if he was put in the same situation, it is a completely different set of paths, with intel and support, and it should be noted Kakashi still lost the fight against Pain even with the better circumstances and not getting jumped by all the paths at the same time while injured like Jiraiya was.
On top of this we saw how Jiraiya dispatched Konan with extreme ease, Konan who originally beat Sasori (with the 3rd Kazekage puppet) meaning she scales above the third kazekage and the 4th (given the 3rd was the strongest kazekage prior to Gaara) and if this power disparity was consistent this would further solidify the Sannin's scaling above Deidara, Kakuzu and Pre-War Kakashi as well.
We know Itachi was fatigued during his enounter with Jiraiya in part I (as he had to deactivate the MS and was breathing heavily for using a single Amaterasu and the Tsukuyomi on Sasuke), Kisame is proven to grow stronger after the time skip because of his 30% power clone was able to handle Might Guy even though he was pressed by him in Part I, that's a massive increase, so him going from below Jiraiya to slightly above Killer Bee is consistent with that.
Also Guy in Part I is also proven to be below Jiraiya because Jiraiya is stated to be the village's only hope of beating Orochimaru, meaning Jiraiya scales above Part I Guy and Kakashi (directly proven by Kakashi being paralyzed in feat at Orochimaru's sight, too), and thus Kisame being relative to Guy is consistent with Kisame's statement of not being comparable to the Sannin.
Itachi probably also grew in power from Part I to Part II by mastering his MS abilities further (he seems to be able to use them more than in Part I even if he is closer to being blind because of it), so Jiraiya being able to win that fight is not out of the realm of possibility, if Itachi is exhausted and Kisame is weaker than Jiraiya, we should also consider that even though Itachi no-diffed Orochimaru when he first joined the Akatsuki, there's nothing that says Orochimaru didin't grow stronger than his past self since then, even if he still thinks he doesn't stand a chance against Itachi the gap is likely less abysmal, especially if Itachi is becoming sick and still is not as in control of his MS as in Shippuden, so this smaller gap in power compared to 4 years prior on top of Itachi's weakened state at the time Jiraiya appeared gives credence that Jiraiya could have potentially taken them out.
So yeah Jiraiya is definetly not fodder seeing as he can beat most of the Akatsuki (Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Part I Kisame, and obviously Zetsu) all of Hebi including Sasuke, all the Kazekage prior to Gaara, Pre-War Kakashi, is relative to Ay (since Tsunade is relative to him) and has the most OP genjutsu barring Kotoamatsukami (Toad Song).
That Kakashi would surpass the Sannin by getting rid of his depression is perfectly consistent with the fact that Sakumo was originally hailed as being a legendary ninja stronger than the Sannin, Kakashi inherited Sakumo's potential and graduated the academy at 5 years old, a year younger than the sannin did, it makes sense that Kakashi would reach the level of his father or even higher thus far surpassing Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru.
listen sir jiriya fought pain without any intel where naruto had full intel on pain. Please stop trying to overcomplicate things dear sir
If you think about, Hiruzen body was strong enough to get that old. That can't be said about Itachi.
I've never seen a video as biased as this one, you basically disregarded all the disadvantages that Jiraiya had in the fight against Pain, while at the same time not mentioning advantages that characters like Naruto and Kakashi had against Pain. like, jiraya didn't know how many enemies he had, kakashi and naruto knew, jiraya didn't know what jutsu pain had, naruto and kakashi knew. you say that kakashi fought against pain's strongest bodies but, but kakashi had help and still lost without being able to do anything against pain, so why is this seen as merit for kakashi and demerit for jiraya? these are just a few examples of how biased this video is. but hey according to "the experts in naruto" itachi is probably stronger than the sage of the six paths himself, i mean what the poor hagoromo could do against the powerful totsuka blade, right? hahahaha
Jiraiya was so powerful Kishimoto had to get rid of him so he didn't one shot Kaguya and the other otsutsiki from the movie.