The Real Reason Legacy Car Makers Are Doomed (And It's SO Obvious)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- I decided to travel to Scotland to visit Gretna Green, where they have three Tesla superchargers in close proximity. With about 40 chargers, and ideal access from the M6, it's a great charging location for EV drivers. It could be useful for those travelling from England, especially those travelling longer distances like from London.
Today I wanted to talk about the decline of legacy auto, traditional car manufacturers who produce most of their cars with ICE (internal combustion engines). Many have attempted to get by manufacturing hybrids but still have to rely on carbon credits from companies like Tesla. In this video, I'll explain why legacy car makers are doomed.
// What To Watch Next
Home Charging Explained | Is A 3-Pin Plug Enough For You?
• Home Charging Explaine...
Home Charging Explained | Using A 3-Pin 13-Amp Plug For An Electric Vehicle
• Home Charging Explaine...
Why Sainsbury's Smart Charge May TRANSFORM The EV Charging Landscape
• Why Sainsbury's Smart ...
EV Charging | Why I Hesitated About Sharing This Hidden Gem
• EV Charging | Why I He...
Dummy's Guide To EV Charging | Don't Make These Mistakes
• Dummy's Guide To EV Ch...
// Socials
Email: davetakesiton@gmail.com
Twitter: / davetakesiton
Patreon: / davetakesiton
// Patreon Supporters
Special thanks to all those who have contributed to the channel. Your support means everything.
Legend: Darren Pain
Above And Beyond: John Buckoke
VIP: Tom Davison | Gary Heavens | Kodzo | Kenn | Andrew Leader | Jason Herrick | Lee Houten | Graham Russell | Wayne Follett | phil rundle | Stuart Joscelyne | Tom Walker | Michael W | Barry rathbone Ledsom | Peter Hartland | Charles Siddons | 2 Thumbs in the Thumbnail | Ray Daly | Simon Smith | Richard Waghorn | Rachael McLoughlin | Stephen Bagwell | Catrin Hubbarde | Brendan McHale | Julie Marriott
Supporter: Paul Egan | Kim Edwards | Alan Williams | Nicholas Campbell | David kramrisch | Peter Lawrence | Oliver Roche-Clarke | Andy Hamilton
// RUclips Super Thanks
geoffpeters8843 | brettkemmerer1310 | leesmart1971 | michaelketley1252 | ballathiam9486 | esa4aus | stephenappleby7897 | cjsa9253 | Joe-lb8qn | rayd332 | StanDMan01 | Mora41 | 68smurfin | 1973Hog | mortenvollaug6530
Tags:
#ev #charging #davetakesiton
The chief financial officer at VW said recently that the VW Group have just 2 years to make a success or they fall. At the same time VAG said they were closing two more car factories in Germany, this year.
They have never closed factories in Germany that I know of. 😮
@@paulconnolly4483 I know... It is apparently something that was just announced. Now if I heard it wrong (listening whilst on a long drive) maybe their intention is to close two factories. But it is definitely worth looking into. As it is a sign of big trouble.
They seem to be embracing the Polaroid/Kodak model of business continuity ......
The only way legacy manufacturers will survive is by badge engineering. They'll be buying kits off BYD, SAIC and the others and putting them together in their own factories with a few minor changes and gluing their badge to it. Has anyone noticed the VW ID2 is almost identical to the BYD Seagull?
High Battery cost has meant they didn't have a choice to produce a car for 20-30k without massive losses and killing their ice market.
Now battery costs have plummeted they are way behind the Chinese
You would think the battery prices drop for everyone not just the Chinese. Although they have done the most to get it that low. Hopefully for them they can access them.
Legacy is far behind in automation.
It isn't going to be possible to compete in EVs unless you match automation.
I think the problem is that they saw batteries as something they'd just buy in, rather than a key technology that they needed to invest in.
Cheap EVs are beginning to arrive. You can now get a brand new MG5 for less than £20k.
Plus MG are selling off existing stocks of the ZS EV, in preparation for the new model arriving soon. Some MG dealers are selling new but old stock ZS EV's off for under £20k with the 7 year warranty.....
@@Brian-om2hh Citroën is already building €25k EV's with a good range, so is Fiat. Renault to with the R5.
The MG5 is ICE, the MG4 is an EV.
@@alexishart1989there is an MG5 EV version I saw one yesterday.
@@alexishart1989 only half true.
Another great video, Dave always talks sense. Sellantis might survive because of their tie in with Leapmotors. Dave's absolutely right, legacy autos are in serious trouble.
Volvo were saying that they will be going 100% all in on BEVs.... Now they have replaced their CEO and done a U-turn on what they said.... In 2025 there will be many cheaper BEVs for sale. Thus the word will spread and Legacy will sell even fewer petrol cars.
Their target is now 90% for BEV I believe? Whilst it may be good short-term to keep producing ICE, still question whether doing this long term is going to work, particularly as they are Chinese owned. Will depend a lot of the political and incentive landscape.
Most of the legislation regarding the changeover to EVs has been around for over 10 years, If a business cannot adapt in that time it deserves to fail.
Fair point. It seems as though some car makers are just reluctant to jump and fully embrace EV technology. Some seem to feel it might be best to let others jump first, but as Dave pointed out, the clock is ticking....and some will leave it too late.
Those emmissio standards also apply in China
I see Bmw and Toyota are chasing the hydrogen unicorn again!
Hydrogen will not be the winning power source.
Every time a legacy car maker says that they are cutting back on EV production and concentrating on combustion again, I translate that as “‘Turn this lifeboat around, I want to get back on the Titanic!”
An interesting scenario looms Dave... It'll be quite a challenge for some car makers over the next few years.... Some well known names could be history in just a few years....
...and every time an ICE car isn't sold the cost benefits from scale are reduced meaning less profit on each ICE car sold.
Thanks Dave, very interesting as usual. Loving 'Dave on the move' btw 😄
Problem with Tesla is, they never build affordable EV's. But Stellantis did.
I know you dislike everything that has no Tesla name on it and constantly bash Stellantis.
But Stellantis is the only company that ever build that sub €25k EV for the masses, where Tesla only is telling a boring story about that $25K Tesla for many years.
The Citroën ë-C3 has 320km range, 100kW charger, is praised by most reviewers for its comfort, and a 5-door family hatch does not need 0-60 in 8 sec.
It has airco and electric windows, heated stearing and heated seats. OK, it is no Tesla model 3, but it is also not €43k
Start bashing Tesla for a change, about the constant lies for many years about the famous $25k EV. . . . it was planned for. . . .2020? 2021? 2022? 2023? 2024? and now it will be 2025?
Just like the famous Toyota solidstate battery in 2018 . . .2020 . . .2024 . . . and now, 2027?
Talk is cheap.
Your mostly right, I agree with a lot you say, but try for once to sing a different song than praising the Tesla god.
Proof me wrong, Stellantis, with the Citroën ë-C3 line and with the Fiat Grand Panda, are in that €20k to €30k range. Even the Renault company is making those €25k EV's.
And Citroën is building those €25k EV's in the EU.
NO, not letting those cars build in China and then ship to the EU, like you claimed, but BUILD in the EU. Stay informed.
Absolutely right
Heated seats in the FRONT only - and only on the higher spec model - and no heat pump, so either buy a 3rd party heated seat pad or tw0, or sacrifice a lot of range in cold weather if you have more than 1 passenger.
The charging speeds is "Up to"; like many other manufacturers, this will be the max speed, and how long and at what charge level it can reach that - remains to be seen; some cars claiming 100KW charging, only manage 100KW for 5-6 minutes.
Dave talks from his personal experience, so of course Tesla is going to get mentioned a lot; I dont drive or particularly LIKE Tesla cars, but they are the standard all other EVs are judged against for very good reasons; I can only DREAM of getting 5 miles/KWh at 70 mph on the motorway, from my little Kia, yet huge, powerful Telsas manage that with ease.
The test drives of the C3 mention getting 4.3; I am willing to bet they went nowhere near a motorway or test track, so good luck getting anywhere near the claimed range at motorway speeds.
The insight here is dead on, there have been numerous examples over the years in various industries. Kodak is the most famous, but IBM's fumble with what was for DECADES called the IBM PC is another good example. Switching to EVs isn't possible because it requires a couple of years of, if not outright losses, minimal profits and the way the stock market and exec comp works NO ONE is going to do that. And MOST people who work in the legacy auto industry are anti-EV and will do their best to kneecap anything novel.
VW is a good example, the leadership of IG Metall has failed it's members, although that won't be apparent for years and will be (like the UAW in North America) NEVER ADMITTED.
Well put across Dave!
One of the Gretna Green sites is now open to all EVs along with Todshills Southbound to the south of Gretna. It now means I can get from Surrey to Ayrshire entirely on Tesla chargers, more than halving the cost of taking my old diesel on the same route.
Just ordered a MG4 through a work scheme, really excited to sell our hybrid Niro and go electric and save money
Enjoy, had mine for well over a year and a half, racked up just short of 40,000 miles in the UK, love it.
In America the government won't let the big three crash. It would be pretty devastating. Unless they want it to be devastating. But anything is possible.
I have been saying exactly this for several years now, and had ICE fanbois sneering at my delusions.
I DID make one mistake, back in March this year, I heard rumours China was banning ICE car sales in July 2024, and that didnt happen; however the MARKET FORCES in China have effectively done the job anyway.
I was expecting them to do it the same way they did with motorbikes, ban sales in large urban areas, then a few years later ban the bikes from entering large urban areas.
One problem for EV CAR owners in China, is that the population almost exclusively need to use public chargers - and charging prices have skyrocketed this year, to the extent of charging an EV being more expensive than refuelling a petrol car in some places.
Legacy car makers future was in their own hands up to 2 or 3 years ago, now I fear they might have left it very late, possibly too late. They only have themselves to blame.
My guess is the car makers are banking on govt help / investment to save them and the people they employ. A risky strategy to say the least
Well, government help is what Chinese makers have received in spades.
@@rogerphelps9939 That's true enough but legacy car makers had a head start, branding, market presence and loyalty, that Chinese companies didn't have...they didn't take advantage of that. More fool them
Well said Dave, fully agree that they only played and never intended to sell any due to their insane prices. Only by fully committing will they stand a chance. Problem is that new EV companies are popping up, especially the Chinese ones and legacy will not find anywhere left to go and sell their cars.
Perhaps the legacy will go, but will the names survive, as MG has
MG was a failed 'legacy' car maker that went broke many years ago, mainly due to lack of forward planning by management. The current MG is a 'badged' chinese car. Soon we will see 'badged' Fords, etc.
As it all unfolds, there is bound to be some plundering among the potentially useful carnage. We'll have to see what transpires......
@@solentbumpart of MG ROVER that was asset stripped by its directors in the early 2000s much in the way Dave suggests the legacy auto makers will do as they approach the end game. Ironically, the MG name was bought from the ruins by SAIC right back then with a long term plan so history may repeat itself and some illustrious legacy brand names will survive but the ICE companies that built them won’t!
@@solentbum MG still have a design studio in the UK by the way, just look at the cyberster. P.S. I have owned an MG zs ev for 2 years and it has been boring but faultless, when I was a teenager I had an mg sports car, great for picking up Sheila's (I was in Ausi at the time), and I loved it, but remember that that was a very long time ago, I had just watched Elvis in the movie Blue Hawaii, and that was it! I had to have one -- in red -- and now I was in massive debt, but if it was ok with him, it was ok with me. Because they were so popular in those days, I did manage to sell it without making much of a loss and bought myself a more practical vehicle, the Holden panel van, with plenty of room in the back and a roof rack to stow the surfboards, and then to head down to the Gold Coast every weekend. And, also because all my mates had one too (for obvious reasons). From memory they were called the 'Sandman'. Gone, loved, but not forgotten.
It’s a shame none of the legacy automakers had EV visionaries. The one that did, VW with Herbert Diess, got rid of him.
Oh so true, VW - an early adopter and on the right track but the experts knew better
Yet another modern case study for the next edition of The Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton M. Christensen, which was first published in 1997 end which is more relevant today then the day it was first published.
We are getting a Peugeot e3008GT On mobility. But if we would have brought it , it would be over £51,000. That more than double what we paid for our flat.
But I must say Peugeot do seem to be pushing ev more than there ice cars or hybrid cars.
Hi Dave, Firstly - Safe journey! What's your take on the Volvo announcement?
The chargers at Gretna are amazing. Used Todhills on Monday heading for Derby, then Caledonian Park on Thursday on my way back to Aberdeen. Brilliant facilities at both.
Where is Caledonian Park exactly? Planning a trip to Uist next year.. from Devon.
Dave: Legacy Auto can't build decent EVs.. then at 16:22 a Hyundai Ioniq 6 creeps up :) I know I know, not a cheap EV but still a very good EV from a legacy manufacturer. The electric Kona isn't bad either.
Hyundai will probably survive. However, they need to look at Chinese EVs and be competitive.
@@External2737 Hyundai will probably be around for a while. They are a *truly* massive industrial concern, into shipbuilding, civil engineering and construction etc. The car making division is just a small part of their whole...
Is Hyundai considered a legacy auto manufacturer? - Hyundai Motor Co. (HMC), established in 1967.
@@Antiguan_Dart I have no idea, but they're certainly a big player, and a force to be reckoned with in the car making industry.....
Just been watching Bjorn Nyland Norwegian channel with full size electric articulate trucks and a interesting take on charging and solar panels plus a 18 year old driving a artic ! You have got to watch it.
I often watch his channel, as it's an interesting mix.
I know legacy won't do it but they could amalgamate and produce a range of small cars. Problem as I see it outside influences will dictate speed of failure for legacy. For example as ice vehicles become less abundant the garages doing the servicing will go out of business due to less vehicles which in turn mean people with these cars will find it difficult to get cars repaired/serviced and be forced to buy ev or do without. Also more and more legislation on pollution will make owning an ice car virtually impossible.
UK has a massive van market. Need to focus on that.
My postie drives an electric van. I live in a rural area where some sort of motorised transport is necessary for mail delivery.
@@rogerphelps9939 Quite a number of parcel delivery companies - DPD etc - are using electric vans in my area. I asked one driver, and they are based in Lancaster, which is 20 miles from me. The vans have sufficient range to reach their allotted delivery areas, do their stuff, then return to base. Probably less than 100 miles all in. The town work is all constant stop-start work, which is where electric vehicles are vastly superior to ICE....
China is not yet over 90% EV. On its way though.
I thought that too, I think it more like 53% this month.
Gretna has always been a key link from England to the West of Scotland.
Joint ventures with Chinese companies seems to be the way forward at the moment.
These may extend the life of legacy makers but I think that the Chinese partners will eventually buy greater shares of the marque they're teamed with so that they end up owning them.
Yes cheers Dave
yes, you again
The problem as I see it is the legacy makers should have done what Nissan and Renault did starting with an affordable car aimed at the masses instead of luxury too of the range SUV’s
Unfortunately Nissan sat on their hands rather than building on what they had with the Leaf.
There are no public Superchargers between Trafford Centre and Glasgow!!! Gretna needs to be public.
Edit - Just checked... Finally! There are now public Superchargers at Gretna and Todhills. 🥳
I found a group of high power level 3 chargers located on a petrol station with a Starbucks close by just off the M6 in Lancashire. Zapmap made it easy to find.
China have a stranglehold on the materials supply chain and so can easily out compete fairly or otherwise. German car industry goes down the rest of their industrial base will likely follow, then their general economy, then EU. Won't be so sanguine then.
What's the development time for new models.. maybe 5 to 7 years? We've reached a point now where there's no point working on new ICE models, so we'll likely just see minor face-lifts of the existing models for the next few years, while they put most of their effort into EV development. At least this is what would seem sensible for legacy auto to do. If they are gambling that there will still be a market for ICE cars in the future they will certainly go out of business.
Several car makers have already dropped any further development work on new ICE, in the light of upcoming Euro 7 legislation. I've heard it said that getting any new ICE technology to meet Euro 7 would add considerably to the cost of new ICE cars....
For legacy auto I believe it's 4 years on average. Chinese EV makers do it in 18 months (which is part of the reason they are gaining ground across the world, being faster by years when making a new car or a refresh means they can use technology that is years newer on their cars compared with legacy auto - which creates a huge cost difference when battery packs are getting more than 10% cheaper per year on average).
Buying an EV in the UK today is not a good deal.
It's a lot of money for a rediculous level of depreciation, many will avoid that and worst case just buy second hand if they have to.
... yet I just bought a new Model 3 Performance from Tesla.
Government is pushing an agenda, it's basically forcing an industry conversion, that's why the adoption rates are so high.
welcome to the club, let me know how you think in a few weeks of driving it.
@@davetakesiton I've had it about 6 weeks so far my biggest frustration with it has been the cost of wall charger units and getting one installed "properly".
Expect it to take at least 2 weeks to get someone in, it matters less what you get if you don't have solar.
Having solar I wanted a smart one but IMO the options are quite limited as they aren't as smart as they claim to be.
Some other key points to be aware of if buying an EV ...
- Tesla doesn't offer any sort of paint protection (PPF for example is an additional £2k) other car vendors do.
- Range Anxiety, people talk about it a lot, in the UK it's literally not a problem, there's good charge points everywhere.
- The Model 3 is a wildly different car to a Model Y partly due to refresh work but things like ride height will make a huge difference to your comfort levels.
- Tesla's in car route planning is second to none IMO, the addition of automatic charging way points is a must have for those that do a lot of long distance mileage.
- I'd recommend for most buying a 4 year old model if you want to keep costs down you can save almost 2/3rds on the new price.
- Changes are big every year, look for noise levels, hardness of ride, and the famous "panel misalignment" issues (mine was fine though)
- People talk about them setting on fire, have you ever seen a diesel car on fire? Neither will survive it, both are about as likely to set fire and likely to be written off.
- You can actually charge an EV on a 3 pin plug (takes about as much a kettle), for those that don't do a lot of mileage that can save you £1,000
- Some insurers don't insure EV's at the moment, shop around for deals "play the form filling game" to save even more.
- New cheaper "£20k+" range cars are coming next year it seems, get the older but more expensive models, to avoid disappointing feature loss.
- You'll feel more attached to the road in bad weather due to the additional weight of the car, really good for drivers that struggle in poor weather.
- Smart wipers and lighting, etc often come as standard, I never touch either they have been on full auto since I got the car.
- Do not settle, get the car that feels right, the range of frankly "crap" out there is beyond funny, I know i'm biased but Tesla really are leading an entire industry.
- Service costs ...
- Tesla recommend a service once every 2 years
- They basically kick the tires, and check the breaks (regenerative breaking means you'll hardly ever use them)
- Tires are expensive on EV's but last easily 50k miles
- Servicing will be basically just the cost of an air filter replacement as there no oil changing, clutches, gearboxes, etc to worry about.
- @ roughly 70p per kwh for charging you're paying what it costs to run a diesel, many energy providers are offering 7p overnight options.
Definitely do not get an EV that you can't use on the Tesla charging network, I've tried a few non Tesla chargers and they are double the cost for a fraction of the charging capacity even at the same site.
The referral program is back up, if anyone want's £1,000 off a Tesla have it on me ...
ts.la/paul449462
I don't understand why people buy ICE cars in this day and age.
These brand new vehicles could be completely obsolete in as few as three years.
Who wants to spend money on a brand new ICE which will be obsolete that fast?
That becomes a huge waste of money, and leaves you having to buy yet another new car in within that three years.
Buying an ICE car today is a terrible financial decision.
Very true but Luddites reign supreme
You won't *have* to buy another new car within 3 years Jim, because you'll be able to continue to driving it as long as it remains serviceable, and fuel is accessible.... It's only the sale of *new* ICE cars which will be banned after 2030, not the use of existing ones.....
@@Brian-om2hh
Sure, but gas stations are already closing in some areas, and that's something that's only going to grow. An ICE without fuel is a very large paper weight.
Hello Dave
you again
I suspect a few will be like MG, cars built in China, and wearing old familiar badges, but fully Chinese companies.
A bit sad really, but if you don't move with the times, it isn't going to wait for you.
The worst of it is BMW, they started off on the right path with the i3, something unique and well built, although a bit pricy, they could have worked on it and produced similar for less money, but have moved into the luxury market which isn't mass market enough to keep them in profit for long.
The i3 was brilliant, but it had a lot of carbon fibre components, and very few current panel beaters can handle that stuff. Too expensive to repair for the segment it was designed for. I was in the carbon fibre boatbuilding business for years, and I can tell you this stuff is all 'gold plated'.
WTF haven't Ford produced an EV Fiesta or Focus? They could've cleaned up!
Yes they missed that one
Hi Dave ,have you any more info about tesla @ Walton Summit is it commissioned as yet and is it an open to all site
Ok thanks
what % of charging in uk are you now responsible for with all that traveling :) Have you arranged the interview with Paul Burgess Yet ?
"Anything you make in an EV must be worse than the ICE equivalent".
Is the Buzz worse than the VW camper van? Is the ID3 worse than the VW Golf?
Even Ford have a couple of good (though pricey) EVs. I would say it's arguable.
Now Mercedes, BMW, Toyota , Stellantis: they've enthusiastically embraced the directive ;-).
Hahaha have you driven the BMW i4?
Has Volvo done the right thing , by going full EV built in China, with protectionist policies in the EU and USA ?
I thought the EX90 and XC90 for Europe and USA are built in South Carolina. I'm sure that is what was said in a couple of the reviews I've seen in the last few days ...
Volvo is moving their EX 30 manufacturing plant from China to Ghent in Belgium later this year, primarily to cut down on transportation costs and Co2, as most EX30's are expected to be sold in mainland Europe.....
@@Brian-om2hh I hope Volvo manage to make this transition. Pity about the EX30’s shortcomings but at least Volvo have grasped the EV nettle and moved forward. Ford, VW, GM and Toyota could be facing a very rocky and limited future.
These charger apps do they charge a monthly subscription
You only have a Monthly subscription if you want one. You pay less to charge if you subscribe though. It depends how often you think you'll use public charging.
Those sneaky ICE manufacturers
I will never buy EV from legacy makers. Tesla and Chinese EV makers are far better technologically.
Wrong. My Skoda Enyaq EV ( Skoda is VW group) has been reviewed as being superior to a Tesla model Y. That might be subjective but it means that others can make EVs to challenge Tesla.
@@rogerphelps9939 Those are common reviews by media. VW's platform is itself poor. Infact, VW has collaborated with Chinese car ,aker for platform, and surprising the Chinese have given the older platform and using the newer one for their own EVs. EVs are more like tech - Tesla has its own idiosyncracy with ergonomics but its software are top notch and they update/fix things quickly.
Dave, I have a Peugeot e208, which was registered end of October 2023, I am so far very happy with it (although another 50+ miles range would be good). my query is - If your scenario plays out, what support will there be, do you think, for existing legacy car owners, If (in my case Stellantis) they go down?
My Nissan Leaf is now 3ys old so too wonder what will happen if Nissan should collapse?
@@videocanonuser Nissan is spending a lot of money at Sunderland, and is about to start with LEAF Mk 3.
There will be collapses, but the average ICE and Hybrid warranty is only 2 or 3 years and it will take longer than that for them to finally close. Even then, your local Peugeot specialist independent mechanic will be simply raking it in. Once out of warranty most will be better off at an independent service centre anyway, most are far cheaper and know what they are doing. The only risk period is if they go bust with some warranty remaining.
@@solentbum There are 3 new EV models allegedly in the pipeline to be produced at the Nissan Sunderland plant, around 80% of which are exported.....
Have you tried a new 2024 car, non-ev and seen the lag when you hit the fuel... did you know about the legislation of requirement to introduce a lag ?
I own both, and my biggest problem it at junctions, in my ev it it just instantly off the mark, in my Wildtrak it is - er -er not.
No, I didn't know about any legislation to require a lag. Do you know what it's called, or can you link to it?
@@robinbennett5994 your probably right i've looked and didn't find anything directly, but I've seen a review by ev guy in czech of 2024 auto diesel octavia, and driven last week a rental (so new) hyondi tuson, again auto and diesel, which both had this lag, it was un bearable, getting back into my 2013 leaf was bliss :) Possible a faulty sensor of somekind i've seen online with this problem ?
VW do make EVs they just have to improve them, Robotics are going to get rid of humans in the car manufacturing by at least half single arm robot can work 24/7 how many people does that get rid off 5 = £250,000 per year, Robots paid for itself within first year.
Legacy auto should buy a Chinese carmaker each. If you can't beat em, buy em.
Unlikely, they don't have deep enough pockets to purchase outright plus would be subject to authorisation that would likely be refused. Many legacy automakers have JVs with Chinese automakers for this reason, with a number have recently been sold up to the Chinese counterpart. This was probably the legacy automakets plan to offer EV's as a premium early-adopter option in the meantime, at the same time as creaming ICE and Hybrid sales, then to buyout an EV maker when the time was right. However, the success of the pure play EV makers has taken them by suprise, as they are eating into their ICE and Hybrid products rather than competing at the premium end of the market as they thought (i.e. assumed every EV maker would follow the Tesla model).
It's about FSD. It doesn't matter what legacy does if they don't have FSD capabilities.
That killed Tesla in the UK then. It can't even self park!
@@djtaylorutube I think it's now available with Enhanced Autopilot. FSD expected in the UK the first half of the 2025.
@@thejammod Not in the UK, no auto park. Not expecting FSD until a long time after auto park and that's a big nothing right now.
FSD is expected in China and EU in 2025 (when?). However, RHD will trail. For the UK, FSD will lag.
Apart from BMW. BMW is crushing it
Remember we never had to ban horse and carts, to make people buy cars.
We didn't have to. People just opted for the better solution for them....
@@Brian-om2hh Exactly my point. If a better solution is found I'm sure people will start using it. There will be no need for force.
@@keithdenton8386 I know of nobody who has been forced to buy an EV against their will....
@@Brian-om2hh Why do they make quotas on the sale of cars then, and the fact you will not be able to buy a new ICE car after a certain date.
@keithdenton8386 I don't know how you've missed it, but global warming is a serious problem, and ICE cars are one of the biggest causes. That's why governments are encouraging the transition. We knew about it 50 years ago, it shouldn't be news to anyone now.
Great experiment are EV's, just 15 years too early, so they are a very costly experiment for now!
Still don't get how EV evangelists think EV's are somehow cleaner? Obviously not!!
Yes, cleaner whilst driving, but not hugely clean (extra brake dust) and the pollution is at the power station instead of on the road!
What's with the term 'legacy makers'? Sounds like you mean anything not EV? That's naughty of you, if so!
Being those 'legacy' cars are selling at 5+ times more in volume! Hardly legacy, but keep pushing that narrative!
Oh and keep omitting that numerous governments forced manufacturers into this big rabbit hole of EV making!
That's why 'legacy makers' are struggling. They weren't struggling anywhere near this bad 10 years back, but then governments do like to interfere when things are running fairly good to add strain....and here we are!
The EU have to keep sticking their noses in as well, with Euro crap7 already deep in planning, after the nasty Euro crap6 ends.
Suppose they have to do something to earn £600k a year and use polluting planes to attend 'work' every week! Funny that!!
Oh and I see some 'legacy makers' have had to ration ICE cars to dealers in order to hit government targets, (admitted by manufacturers themselves) making the governments/evangelists narratives look good, when it's really a big scam!
The future may well be EV's, but we should be testing just 50 cars over the next 10 years, to see the effect.
But no, like Atom bombs/Nuclear power plants, they went ahead, built many, not realising till years later the damage they could do!
So oil refineries don't use energy from power stations then? And presumably you were not aware of UK users of electricity, being able to buy it from suppliers who sell *only* renewable electricity? And what about all the Co2 and brake dust produced by tens of thousands of fuel tankers, regularly delivering petrol and diesel to sales outlets. Or that 25% of *ALL* diesel produced is used to transport the rest of it to where it is used. Madness.
Steve, your arguments are 15 years out of date.
UK electricity generation is now about 50% 'clean' (if you include nuclear), even more so at night when most EV charging is done. Even if they use power from gas powered power stations, those are twice as efficient as ICE cars, and that's before you account for the energy used by refining and delivering fuel.
EVs don't create extra brake dust. Most EV braking is done with regenerative breaking, so their brake pads last much, much longer than ICE vehicles.
Let's have a dose of reality folks. In the UK optimistically a third of a million new cars are sold every year meaning that it will take 100 years plus of pure EV sales to replace every ICE car. Banning the sale of new ICE though commendable will only result in ever older and increasingly expensive to maintain asthmatic ICE vehicles rattling around for literally decades.
Current laws say that cars over 40 years old do not need an MOT but this will mean old, expensive to maintain and dangerous guzzlers roaming the roads.
As a nation we need a car better strategy to transition from ICE to EV incorporating reducing private car ownership and use and a massive expansion of frequent, cheap and reliable public transport.
Perhaps we need to rescue our bicycles from the back of our sheds too. 🤔
Give it another ten years and I'll have two tax free, MOT free vehicles. 😂
I don't think it will, because those "rattling" old ICE vehicles will slowly be legislated off the roads as emissions regulations etc are inevitably tightened up.....
@@Brian-om2hh Not sure that they'll have much control over "historic class", they're pretty much already accounted for. Bit like traction engines.
I'd have used my classic car more this summer had there a) been a summer and b) I'd fixed the electrical issue that almost stranded me on a filling station. Not fun, nobody wants you even lifting a bonnet on a forecourt these days!
It hasn't taken 100 years for 60 plus percent of Norway's population to switch to EV's........
I suspect the downfall of ICE cars will be due to BP, Shell, Texaco etc etc replacing fuel pumps with EV chargers, and the price of dino juice going through the roof if you can even find any.
Why oh why if EVs are so good, do they have to force people to buy them one way or another. So the small car makers are forced to make EVs or put there prices up having to buy carbon credits. EVs are selling only because they are being forced on people. It's like making people shop at Tesco or eat at Mcdonalds. Shop or eat somewhere else and they will be fined by tesco and Mcds. Eventually you will have no choice but to use Tesco and mds as all others will have gone out of business.
Drivers were asked to wear seatbelts voluntarily because it was better for them. Drivers didn’t so laws were passed to make them mandatory. EV’s are better for humans and the environment regardless of what you think. So there will be a cut off and we’ll all be buying them. They have to be forced on us like seatbelts because it’s BETTER for us.
@@Yorkshireasaurus Seat belts were not made law to be better for us. It was to reduce the cost involved, not least to the NHS. Same with motorbike helmets. Look who they got to promote seat belt wearing . Clunk Click every trip.
@@Yorkshireasaurus And because oil is a finite resource, and will one day run dry.....
@@keithdenton8386 And was it a mistake to attempt to reduce the NHS cost of treating those injured in car accidents after not wearing seatbelts Keith, particularly given that we all pay for it indirectly?
Oil is best to make plastics. Not cheap plastics (go back to paper), but engineered plastics.
EVs are a fad..
It seems you're in for a shock then.....
The Electric Vehicle is on the chopping block government is rethinking the whole EV fisatco because of environmental certains from deadly toxic batteries and Fires
those issues have been looked into and being addressed, dead toxic batteries are very rare, and even then can be recycled, because they have value -- just look on the internet.
So, the 300 or so ICE fires there are in Britain *each day* aren't anywhere on your radar then? And the "deadly toxic" Co2 fumes from ICE cars, that have already raised pollution at street levels? What's your take on those? Have you any thoughts on the huge Co2 emissions from thousands of fuel tankers delivering to petrol stations on a regular basis? In what way is the government "rethinking" EV usage? You didn't bother to explain, so I'm asking......
If EVs are soooooo good why have sales stagnated and second hand market in crisis with car buyers rather having a touch of the pox rather than buy a second hand EV. You evangelist EV people make me sick when all you want is not only EVs for you kind, but mandatory EVs for everyone. Have your EVs enjoy them love them but don't try to stop petrol heads from having there preferred cars. Why do you have to kill a car market you have not interest in, unless you know in your heart petrol is better so it has to go to make you righteous
I doubt that any of us are capable of any of what you suggested.
Have you seen the latest SMMT figures though? BEV up 10%, diesel and petrol down.
The figures speak for themselves.
The petrol market will disappear one day anyway Keith, because oil is a finite resource. It won't last forever.... Some experts say 30 years, others say less.... Personally I feel diminishing sales volumes of fossil fuel over the years ahead will also play their part, with petrol stations beginning to disappear at some point... Sure, petrol can be replaced with synthetic alternatives - which are actually already on sale today (Aspen is one such alternative) - but the cost is frightening, at around £25 per gallon..... Oh, and EV sales haven't "stagnated". The SMMT the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders recently published the new car sales figures for August, and these show new EV sales increasing, so I have no idea where your notion of "stagnation" comes from..... Perhaps it's wishful thinking on your part, with you *wanting* to believe it? Oh, and SMMT figures show sales of used EV's in the UK were up around 40% over the same period last year.. That doesn't sound like a "crisis" to me.....
@@djtaylorutube petrol and diesel car sales are only down because of the quota of EVs that have to be sold compared to ice cars dealers are restricting sales of ice cars so they don't get fined. And a 10% rise in sales of EVs that are 10% of total car sales means a true rise of less than 1% numbers out of context are very misleading aren't they ?
@@keithbartlett9947 It doesn't matter how it's cooked, petrol and diesel down, EV up. 🤷♂️
@@djtaylorutube Yea up 20% of 100 = another 20 EVs sold. Big wow...