Here is what I say about owning an aircraft. I have owned 4 aircraft myself. 1 The purchase price is just the entrance into ownership. 2 if you buy a $35,000 Piper Cherokee the parts to maintain it usually come from a company’s who is now building the same airplane for $350,000. In other words the prices of parts are going to be high. I bought a Beechcraft C-35 Bonanza several years ago. Within 4 years I had put an additional $30,000 in it. We did an engine overhaul, prop Overhaul, flap motor, gear motor. All of those were done in the first 4 years. I just purchased a Taylorcraft 5 years ago, for 18,000, the second year it needed new struts and a engine cylinder . Those two alone were $7,000. I spent another $4,000 last year on replacing a leaky wing tank and a new wooden prop. Good Job Mike you.
And how much of that $350,000 price for a new Cherokee is due to accident liability settlements? If you would have asked an aircraft design engineer back in 1960 how long he thought a $10,000 Cherokee would last, what do you think his answer would be? 30 years on average. Of course there are exceptions flying every day.
@@i.r.wayright1457 Thing is, How many of those Accident Settlements were in aircraft accidents that were 100% Pilot Error?? The Big one, 400 MILLION Dollars against Cessna and Lycoming was because the 40 year old 172 burned...after the owner/Pilot flew it into the side of a Mountain. before that Suit (And the resultant DECADE of No Single-engine GA Aircraft sales by Cessna, a decently equipped 172 from the factory was around $85K Ten years later the first New 172 was $185K for a Basic VFR-Only. Aircraft. All to pay the Insurance premiums.
Only 30k for all that work done. I thought the engine alone would be close to that. Yeah still sucks if you got plane for only 30k then had to put that much into it.
I'm a sailboat owner, and that's pretty pricey with "marine" grade material, stainless parts, navigation equipment/radar, etc. I met a pilot who also sails. He told me "want to make sailing look cheap? Buy a plane." lol
From a from airline pilot, and instructor ...thanks for the video....good stuff. Especially in South Florida, log books are key ...and of course, paying for a pre-buy inspection ...pardon my language, but there are tons on "polished turds" for sale. Many sellers merely slap a paint job onto a sub-par aircraft. and, I'm not naming names ..but an FAA inspector friend caught a guy swapping engines.
ADS-B Out is all that is required, not In. Also, ADS-B is not required at all below 10,000 in most of the National Airspace System. There are cheap solutions to make your aircraft with old radios ADS-B out compliant.
This is all great information! My former flight instructor and World War II Aviation fanatic was looking to buy a T6 and he found a perfect one the only problem was the only log book entry was " flies great"
It is really making me rethink my plans about buying an inexpensive Piper Cherokee 180. Mike, any interest in capturing the process of buying an used aircraft from beginning to end? I am talking about an purchase, start with research, pre-buy inspection, knowing where to look for the ADs, finding insurance, financing options, etc... I think it would be awesome to find someone that is about to start this and then capture the whole thing on video.
I lost my Skipper to Wilma on 05, Beechcraft 77, great little puddle-jumper, well made, very slow, but it flew, the tie down was only$48.00 per month , annuals under $500., low time, I flew that little plane from Hollywood Fl to Danbury Ct, to Farminddale NY and back to Florida. It was cheap but really a good little machine. Low price is one thing, cheap experimental are something else. I'm grounded for good now.
This is great information for any prospective owner of an older SEL airplane. It’s also worth noting that generally any Piper or Cessna purchased will be a “type-certified” aircraft, which among other things, means that the owner cannot work on most things, unless they have an aircraft & power plant certificate (issued from the FAA). In simple terms this means that an owner will be paying a serious premium for labor/parts to fix/upgrade any issues that exist with any type-certified airplane. A cheaper alternative to this route is buying either an “experimental “ or “light sport” aircraft. If you are a prospective airplane buyer, do your research!
In Canada we have the Owner Maintenance category, where owners of simple privately-owned planes can do their own maintenance. Such planes are, however, not welcome in the U.S. (the FAA is adamant), despite AOPA lobbying for similar provisions.
Chris Hill is there a decent 4 place LSA? Or does that not meet the definition of light sport? Experimentals seem to take too long to build yourself. I’ve heard if you buy a built one you still have to have an AP work on it. Is this true?
In addition to time since overhaul for an engine, is the calendar time. Each engine manufacturer also sets an elcapsed time since overhaul as another overhaul recommended interval. My :Lycoming is 10 years max recommended between overhauls.
Very good video. Easy to get your eyes open for just what you might be getting into. So many RUclips videos just focus on the purchase price of an aircraft and don't even give a thought to the maintenance costs. Again, great video.thanks!
I would add that it is important to consider how long ago an overhaul was done. If a major overhaul was completed 20 years ago and the engine only has 200 hours on it there is a good chance that there is internal corrosion that will cause that engine to go bad way before tbo. Lycomings in particular have issues with can and lifter corrosion which can't be inspected without tearing down the engine. Planes with recent overhauls AND a lot of use are the best bets when it comes to getting a long life from that engine.
Very true. About 20 years ago, I bought a (1958) 182 with less than 1k hours SMOH. Well, I flew it maybe 150 hours, and it developed a cracked cylinder which luckily didn't lead to CFIT. I believed I was getting carbon monoxide in the cabin, and had it looked at. The details at this point are a little fuzzy, but I recall that the mechanic (who I trust explicitly) said that his investigation to my complaint led to a "paper trail" into the motor. Although it still had decent compression, it needed a total rebuild. So here was a case where the plane was operating normally, and hiding larger problems even though the engine was considered "low time".
Mike you said ADS-B in and out. Probably a slip but just in case, ADS-B IN not required. Engine overhaul also isn't mandatory. Well maintained engines can go past TBO forever as long as they're maintained and test good. I've heard of engines running double of TBO.
Rule #1 If no hangar, it might be a money pit, depending on the prevailing climate where it was stored. Rule #2. Beauty is only skin deep. You have to inspect all the nooks and crannies for corrosion and/or hidden damage. #3. Complete log books are nice to have, but if you can't read the sloppy hand writing, they can be useless. Rule #4. Be sure to check the TBO on all major components, and BTW, those engines also have a recommended overhaul time based on calendar (years) not just the tach time or Hobbs meter. One final thing; the only guy who never got laid off from an aircraft or engine manufacturer is the one who raised parts prices.
Point #5 is incorrect. Engine overhauls are NOT required after a specific time unless your are using the aircraft under commercial rules (Part 121 or Part 135). For the vast majority of people who will be purchasing used single-engine aircraft to fly for personal purposes (Part 91), the manufacturer specified TBO (time before overhaul) is not a requirement. Granted, that doesn't mean there may be some other reason or requirement to overhaul an engine, e.g. prop strike, evidence of camshaft failure. The engine's age, such as 2000 hours or 12 years, is by itself not.
For sure some good points made. In regard to the engine I think it is important to clarify that the engine has a TBO limited by both hours and time, generally around 2000 hrs base or around 6 years of available service whichever is sooner, the propeller will also have a TBO with hrs flown and/ or time elapsed in available service, I say available service because the engine and prop can be sat idle between TBO and still require strip down inspection/ overhaul just on calendar time elapsed. Engines usually only qualify for longer TBO,s when they are fairly well used i,e more than 30 hrs a month. The biggest enemy of any aircraft is being sat idle it causes big corrosion and deterioration issues not only with the airframe, seals and other perishables but the engine also corrodes badly when left idle, idleness is the single biggest cause in high and unforeseen maintenance. A busy aircraft is always the best option particularly with well documented maintenance with factory overhauled zero timed engine(s) which come with new engine logbook(s)
Yep, being an A & P and pilot. I always get the airplane I am about to buy inspected by another person in addition to my inspection just in case I missed something important due to my excitement about buying an aircraft. As this video described, I learned life lessons of being cheap and paying big later.
Can you do repairs on your private plane yourself? I’ve heard you could do this as long as you have an experimental sign on the aircraft. I’ve done all my cars maintenance, big or small. Unfortunate it costs the price of a used plane for an engine overhaul something is wrong there...
overhaul is not a requirement unless the aircraft is flown under commercial operations, there are many o320s over 3000 SMOH that are still getting good compression readings. Always take it case by case.
Owning a airplane is like owning a expensive time share. If you use it to its fullest extent, you'll break even on the cost, but you'll have the time of your life. If you don't use it to the fullest, It will be a nightmare.
Good video. Of course the log books are number 1. But I would classify the Total Time on the engine as the number 2 issue. Often you will see a good airplane with a low price, and find out that the engine is due for overhaul. Also sometimes especially if the airplane has not been flown in several years, even though the engine is say low or mid time a compression check will turn up some low reading cylinders. In this case you could just have a "top overhaul" preformed for much less than a complete re-build.
And don’t forget when these aircraft have been sitting idle for years the corrosion & rust that builds up internally on those engines can and will be fatal if not broken down and inspected with the rest of your acceptance inspection. I can’t tell you how many wrist pins have failed due to rust buildup and not doing an internal inspection. Too many and with an A&P licensed owners. Too many!! Keep them flying safe. Never be afraid to inspect the inside of an engine because it will tell you the most about the operation and condition of how this aircraft was flown and respected!! Remember hanger queens can fail too!
Man I haven’t even seen a Beechcraft Skipper(the plane I got my private in ) or Piper Tomahawk in twenty years, can’t imagine trying to keep one of those flying today.
Although there is little chance of a plane flying into my life just yet, you Sir have given out some sound advice I had no clue about previously.Thank you! Subbed.
At the top of the importance of inspecting a prospective purchase candidate's log books is to verify compliance with ADs. If a seller did not comply with ALL A.D.s, I wouldn't walk - I'd run away from the deal. It'd be a peek into how they treated the airplane overall. As far as engine overhauls, best to get in the habit of putting a certain amount of money per hour you fly into an account just for that shocker of an event. Sorta like a college fund. Save little-by-little over time, or face writing a huge tuition check!
First, thanks for you’re content, keep it up! I don’t think a prebuy inspection can be emphasized enough. We bought a Beech Sierra at what was considered the lower part of the fair market value. If we had a better prebuy, we would have learned someone used silicon seal on the crankcase and the jugs. Also, if the top was borescoped, they might have seen the spalling camshaft. What we saw was an aircraft with good paint and ok interior. The instruments all seemed ok. Also, the SMOH was about 900, not even the halfway point for the engine. The issue was that it was improperly maintained and it the last time it was overhauled was 16 years before we bought it! One day we were taking off, this is after flying FL to OR and the plane sitting a couple weeks, and we weren’t making enough power to climb more than 500 feet above the ground. Luckily we were able to land safely on the airfield and then we found out all the things I just told you. We ended up getting a factory reman put on the plane! $40k for material and labor!! Not such a good buy folks. After several instruments being sent out for overhaul, landing gear pump being changed, new batteries, we had a great plane. Paying a trusted mechanic $500-$1500 or whatever(it depends on region and plane) is a very good idea, it will save you in the long run. (Btw - a GA engine that is over 12 years old can be considered suspect for overhaul. That’s not to say there aren’t excellent maintained engines out there at that age that are great and can go beyond TBO, just saying buyer beware!!!!)
Rein Hart - you have to have an A&P IA that is familiar with type, or in the case of an RV experimental, an experienced builder too, do a prebuy. With certified it is easier to find a person, with experimental you really need to look around.
jonnydwolf indeed. At my home airport half the hangars are RVs! They are having all the fun doing aerobatics and enjoying the performance. Each have custom panels too. It’s really got me into it.
As a flight instructor I've seen dozens of people buy airplanes based on the sticker price and not know the engine is up for overhaul in 100 hours, or think that's "plenty of time". The folks who try to save the most money by doing work themselves on their "certified" airplanes (questionable if some of these airplanes are still legally certified now, depending how closely they worked with an engineer), or get into airplanes that are more complex because the price is right, these pilots end up with the most surprise expenses and have lower satisfaction overall. Probably the biggest mistake I see people make is purchasing an airplane before completing their PPL. This could be a good strategy if they end up keeping that airplane, but oftentimes the airplane they buy doesn't end up suiting the role they wanted it for, and they didn't have the experience to know that (range, gross weight, speed, avionics, fiki, etc). Remember an engine overhaul on most of the GA stuff out there costs more than a PPL... Aircraft ownership is kind of like getting a second pilot's license. Lots to learn about ADs, how maintenance works to inform picking a good shop, tracking calendar and hours airworthiness items and parts, even just finding a replacement part on some of these older airplanes can be a week of searching and making calls. Overall I know many pilots who love having their own airplanes, but cost is never the reason why.
Part 91 operations do not require an engine overhaul at TBO. Flown many hours on engines over TBO. Overhaul on condition, evaluate oil, consumption. oil analysis, borescope inspection.
It's not like buying an old car. When that car breaks down on the side of the road, you call a tow truck. But, when your plane breaks down in mid air you're screwed. What you save in the short term, is going to cost you a lot more, in the long term.
As a licensed aircraft mechanic since 1964, and having worked for 2 airlines, both the Navy and Army as a civilian contractor, and in general aviation, I tell potential aircraft buyers my golden rule. When someone asks me what they can buy for $35,000, I tell them to find a partner and now buy a $70,000 plane. I don't think I've ever met a plane owner who needs the plane full time. If you have a partner you get to buy a nicer plane and get to split the costs of ownership.
While avionics upgrades are a pricey proposition, they are rarely required. It is perfectly legal to fly Victor airways with 2 nav radios, and with an IPad for situational awareness it isn’t that difficult. Also there are people who spend $40k on avionics upgrades to get Ads-b out, but a skyBeacon can be had for $2k. Under part 91 operations there is no legal requirement to overhaul an engine at TBO. In fact more engine failures occur immediately after overhaul, than for high time engines. By overhauling a perfectly good engine you are actually increasing your risk.
Unless you are using the plane for commercial use the TBO isn't a mandated time to overhaul. Many privately own planes have exceeded TBO with great compression.
A used aircraft is "worthless" without a comprehensive log book and historical report on the "weak points" of the specific model. Every manufactured product - every piece of machinery has it's own inherent pluses & minuses and there must be a record of modifications & improvements in these regards !! Last but not least " Don't get suckered into paying top dollar for the previous owner's lack of due diligence !!
I had a buddy looking at a Grumman Yankee.. NICE little aircraft, Always hangared, regularly flown, all AD's up to date, but it still had Narco radios from the 70's installed. The price was REALLY good, and he was chomping at the bit to pull the pin on it, when i reminded him (This was late 2018) about ADS-B that he'd HAVE to have in a year and a half, not to mention his Radio's were a No-Go any longer. By the time he sat down with his Local A&P, and Avionics shop, Just for the MINIMUM to be Legal and Safe, he was looking at around 50-75% of what he was paying for the Aircraft. He ended up going for it, but he went with his eyes open and he's Happy.
Not necessarily. I own a Tailwind W8. Recently moved and somehow misplaced the logs. Is it an issue if I go to sell it? It might or would be to some. Is it worthless? Absolutely not. One needs to know what one is looking at. Full disclosure,, I have plans to sell my " worthless aircraft " because it does what it is intended to do and it does it very well.
I disagree that it is worthless. It needs a full inspection and to cross check every single AD to ensure they were followed. That said, I wouldn't personally buy one without a log book as I don't want to go through that hassle but it can (and has) been done safely.
You are not required to overhaul your engine once the time between overhauls is up. Engines actually have a higher failure rate right after a major overhaul. It's best to have good records on oil analysis and a history of compression numbers to determine when a major overhaul is needed.
my dad and my second cousin and I purchased a Mooney m20E 1965 model a little under 50k, and about a month or so into owning it after we got the annual done; some wires broke when my cousin and his family was flying to Reno Nevada for the air races about a year ago so he had no avionics nothing; and had a hand held radio luckily so he was able to get on the ground without incident so id say check the wiring everywhere when your buying an airplane.
Mike, you are correct to point out the time on the engine as a concern but you are incorrect that when the magic number comes up that it must be overhauled. In nearly every case for your target audience this is incorrect. Keep monitoring compression and watching for metal in the oil filter. The engine will let you know when it needs an overhaul. Infant failures can actually make flying more dangerous for a while than running a high time engine that doesn't need a rebuild.
Stuff the typical person like me wouldn’t ever consider. Being only a car driver, engine overalls are not something you’d consider - but for aviation it’s a lifeline!
Personally I think too much emphasis is put on TBO (Time Before Overhaul) Times on aircraft Engines, Everybody want's that Low-Time Engine..thing is, it's actually BETTER to have an engine that is flown regularly and High time, than one with 100 hours total, but hasnt been flown more than an hour a year for the last decade.
Steam gauges are great and fine for IFR. but when the gyroscopes start to wear out, they all seem to eventually go. That is the point where many pilots ask themselves if an EFIS is the best bet.
At this rate, I think renting would be a better alternative for those who are on a tight budget to avoid maintenance. But I think this will be beneficial for those who plan to fly for a short amount of hours per year
PA 28-235 shown was mine in a 2 way partnership in the 80’s. We paid $15,000 for it with 500 hrs on a major and a modern radio stack. We made a bad decision selling it. Every time I see this plane on the internet, I kick myself. Our downfall was letting a 3rd guy buy in that ruined our experience. The 235 out performs a 182 in every respect and way less money.
Why would I want to look forward to problems? These issues are why for someone like myself it makes more sense to buy a kit plane that can be registered as an experimental. It opens up the possibility of using cheap I-pads, and alternative engines in place of more expensive commercial offerings only.
@@gringoloco8576 That is not true. If I make any kind of major change to the plane then I cam maintain it myself. Major changes actually include changing the engine, adding slats to the wings, or even just changing the prop, among a host of other relatively fast, simple, and inexpensive changes.
@@reinhart482 I love the speedy planes as much as anyone, but lately I have been looking at some of the amphibs which really open up the possibilities of where you can take it as well as the usefulness. (IMO)
To sum it up, there is no point in owning an airplane unless you have tons of cash. Its like with boats, do your license and rent it, anything goes wrong you return it and walk away with a smile. In Europe you can rent a Cessna 150 or 172 for 105-160EURO(118-181USD) and it´s your turn to check logbooks, walkaround and then decide to fly it...Why own something that will compete with goldiggers attacking your wallet/account?!
TBO is a manufacturers recommendation.... only important if you are renting the plane... you can’t rent a plane over TBO. If you use it for personal use you just have to baby the engine.
I see a lot of videos about how you can buy a plane for less than the price of an old civic. This is a good dose of reality. It’s been wisely said, airframes are cheap, engines and avionics the opposite.
I just want to point out that if you are not using the airplane for commercial purposes, you DO NOT have to have the engine overhauled just because it reaches TBO. If there's nothing really wrong with it, you can keep flying, and keep watching, until it actually needs it. You can go well beyond TBO if you're careful.
TBO for most engines is a certain number of years OR hours, not just hours. So even if an engine has only 300 hours since TBO, it is still beyond TBO if the typical 12 years (or whatever time the mfr says) has passed. But let’s remember, for private part 91 operation there is NO requirement to overhaul at any hours or any years. As long as the engine is in good condition it can be run well past TBO with complete safety. There is no scientific or mechanical relationship between hours on the engine and it being unsafe. An engine with only 300 hours that doesn’t get run enough can be much more likely to have serious corrosion problems and maintenance than an engine at 3000 hours that runs often.
After watching this I think most people would be better off entering into a partnership and buying something relatively new. Partnerships don't usually work out but would get you down the road. It's obvious the avionics upgrade is a gamechanger and not going away. Anyone who flies should be IFR rated anyway. That's what killed Kennedy.
No, his choice to fly in those conditions is what killed him. Plenty of high time non-IFR rated pilots who haven't graveyard spiraled in because they chose to fly over water on a dark night.
@@BStrambo You're correct. Mine was an incorrect statement. But I'm also thinking he should not have transferred to the more powerful low wing until he got the IFR rating in a plane he was familiar with. I gave up trying to fly. Never had the talent. Kennedy had been working on that certification but was a slow learner. BTW, I got into one of those spirals. That was enough for me! But I'm still intrigued with the whole thing. The logistics of travel and mechanisms in a plane were always more fascinating to me than the flying. Tells you I'm not a pilot.
The people that make excuses for high repair and overhaul costs are the same people that will complain and question why about costs being too high for such things as dental. Captive customers in both cases with "if you want it, you will pay for it" holds for the suppliers and the mechanics.
The cost of avionics alone is reason enough to go the experimental route. Just make sure you fully inspect the structure and run all the ultrasonic inspections.
Tack on another $10k for a factory new engine. Overhauling is more cost-effective, and most engines can be overhauled several times before the core has to be scrapped.
It depends more on the plane and the engine. If it is a good engine with good power and a good match for the air frame, overhaul is certainly cheaper because the new engine is probably $5-$10k+ more (and maybe additional labor and parts if a different engine type than original) and the overhaul will take it back to 0 time. On the other hand, if we are talking a very old C172 with a 6 cylinder Continental O300 only making 145 horses that sets up a different scenario. That engine while smooth running and reliable is pretty weak. With 6 cylinders and being so old, it cost more to overhaul due to 2 more cylinders and hard to find parts! So, faced with a $25k overhaul or a $30-$40k Lycoming 160 or 180 horse upgrade...(I assume there are STC's for the now standard 172 Lycoming engine installs.) You can also find overhauled engines for less and get a few thou for the Continental core which perhaps make a swap close to break-even vs. overhaul. I don't own a plane yet, but I'm looking hard at the old C 172s and Cherokee 140s. The O320 in the Cherokee is way more common, can be upgraded with a Powerflow exhaust and high flow air filter and is cheaper to overhaul so it is on my short list. A private (not for hire/commercial) pilot does not have to get the engine overhauled at TBO. Way back when, the FAA made the engine manufacturers come up with a number that they then enforce on commercial operators. A very well-maintained, oil analyzed, cylinders making good compression low wear engine could safely go way past TBO. However, as a buyer if you are buying near TBO, better factor the overhaul price into your offer because you haven't been flying/maintaining this engine for the last decade to really know it.
Im a licensed A&P looking to get back in the air with my own 182 wanna fly a few different model before I decide, If you have a 182 and it neeeds an A&P to do the work...I'll trade my labor for some flight time,
Here is what I say about owning an aircraft. I have owned 4 aircraft myself.
1 The purchase price is just the entrance into ownership.
2 if you buy a $35,000 Piper Cherokee the parts to maintain it usually come from a company’s who is now building the same airplane for $350,000. In other words the prices of parts are going to be high. I bought a Beechcraft C-35 Bonanza several years ago. Within 4 years I had put an additional $30,000 in it. We did an engine overhaul, prop Overhaul, flap motor, gear motor. All of those were done in the first 4 years. I just purchased a Taylorcraft 5 years ago, for 18,000, the second year it needed new struts and a engine cylinder . Those two alone were $7,000. I spent another $4,000 last year on replacing a leaky wing tank and a new wooden prop. Good Job Mike you.
And how much of that $350,000 price for a new Cherokee is due to accident liability settlements? If you would have asked an aircraft design engineer back in 1960 how long he thought a $10,000 Cherokee would last, what do you think his answer would be? 30 years on average. Of course there are exceptions flying every day.
@@i.r.wayright1457 Thing is, How many of those Accident Settlements were in aircraft accidents that were 100% Pilot Error?? The Big one, 400 MILLION Dollars against Cessna and Lycoming was because the 40 year old 172 burned...after the owner/Pilot flew it into the side of a Mountain. before that Suit (And the resultant DECADE of No Single-engine GA Aircraft sales by Cessna, a decently equipped 172 from the factory was around $85K Ten years later the first New 172 was $185K for a Basic VFR-Only. Aircraft. All to pay the Insurance premiums.
I.R. Wayright p
Only 30k for all that work done. I thought the engine alone would be close to that. Yeah still sucks if you got plane for only 30k then had to put that much into it.
I still hear people telling me "you don't have to be rich to own plane" That doesn't seem to the case from everything i have been reading.
Definitely some great tips Mike, especially for those of us just getting into this crazy world of general aviation.
Get used to "crazy". In aviation, the ONLY constant IS change! Always has been, always will be.
I'm a sailboat owner, and that's pretty pricey with "marine" grade material, stainless parts, navigation equipment/radar, etc. I met a pilot who also sails. He told me "want to make sailing look cheap? Buy a plane." lol
There's no way around it, if you want to own an airplane, (and fly it), you need the $.
Older, small aircraft are as cheap.as an ordinary car
From a from airline pilot, and instructor
...thanks for the video....good stuff.
Especially in South Florida, log books are key
...and of course, paying for a pre-buy inspection
...pardon my language, but there are tons on "polished turds" for sale.
Many sellers merely slap a paint job onto a sub-par aircraft.
and, I'm not naming names
..but an FAA inspector friend caught a guy swapping engines.
Alot of these are the same for buying a used car.
Fox McCloud 007 ||
Yikes!
ADS-B Out is all that is required, not In. Also, ADS-B is not required at all below 10,000 in most of the National Airspace System. There are cheap solutions to make your aircraft with old radios ADS-B out compliant.
Flyin' into airspace without ADS-B out will gather undesired attention. Tail Beacons and Wing beacons galore. -_-
This is all great information! My former flight instructor and World War II Aviation fanatic was looking to buy a T6 and he found a perfect one the only problem was the only log book entry was " flies great"
Good enuf for me.
This is high quality content! Thank you!
It is really making me rethink my plans about buying an inexpensive Piper Cherokee 180. Mike, any interest in capturing the process of buying an used aircraft from beginning to end? I am talking about an purchase, start with research, pre-buy inspection, knowing where to look for the ADs, finding insurance, financing options, etc... I think it would be awesome to find someone that is about to start this and then capture the whole thing on video.
Excellent suggestion. I have similar ideas too.
@TJ Flynn ...join AOPA, search Barnstormers.com, FAA 180 AD list www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/airworthiness_directives/search/?q=Piper+Aircraft%2C+Inc.+PA-28R-180&makeModel=Piper+Aircraft%2C+Inc.+PA-28R-180.
Love the blue and gold paint on that Cherokee... Vintage and beautiful!
I like that you tell it like it is. No BS just straight talk.
I lost my Skipper to Wilma on 05, Beechcraft 77, great little puddle-jumper, well made, very slow, but it flew, the tie down was only$48.00 per month , annuals under $500., low time, I flew that little plane from Hollywood Fl to Danbury Ct, to Farminddale NY and back to Florida. It was cheap but really a good little machine. Low price is one thing, cheap experimental are something else. I'm grounded for good now.
This is great information for any prospective owner of an older SEL airplane. It’s also worth noting that generally any Piper or Cessna purchased will be a “type-certified” aircraft, which among other things, means that the owner cannot work on most things, unless they have an aircraft & power plant certificate (issued from the FAA). In simple terms this means that an owner will be paying a serious premium for labor/parts to fix/upgrade any issues that exist with any type-certified airplane. A cheaper alternative to this route is buying either an “experimental “ or “light sport” aircraft. If you are a prospective airplane buyer, do your research!
In Canada we have the Owner Maintenance category, where owners of simple privately-owned planes can do their own maintenance. Such planes are, however, not welcome in the U.S. (the FAA is adamant), despite AOPA lobbying for similar provisions.
Chris Hill is there a decent 4 place LSA? Or does that not meet the definition of light sport? Experimentals seem to take too long to build yourself. I’ve heard if you buy a built one you still have to have an AP work on it. Is this true?
In addition to time since overhaul for an engine, is the calendar time. Each engine manufacturer also sets an elcapsed time since overhaul as another overhaul recommended interval. My :Lycoming is 10 years max recommended between overhauls.
This guy is no professional announcer, but his channel sounds a lot more authentic than some I've visited.
Thank you Mike, Love your channel. This is very helpful info as I get closer to purchasing my first aircraft.
Thanks Mike! Some good advice as I start looking for my own plane to fly.
Very good video. Easy to get your eyes open for just what you might be getting into. So many RUclips videos just focus on the purchase price of an aircraft and don't even give a thought to the maintenance costs.
Again, great video.thanks!
Excellent video!
I love your channel!
I would add that it is important to consider how long ago an overhaul was done. If a major overhaul was completed 20 years ago and the engine only has 200 hours on it there is a good chance that there is internal corrosion that will cause that engine to go bad way before tbo. Lycomings in particular have issues with can and lifter corrosion which can't be inspected without tearing down the engine. Planes with recent overhauls AND a lot of use are the best bets when it comes to getting a long life from that engine.
Very true. About 20 years ago, I bought a (1958) 182 with less than 1k hours SMOH. Well, I flew it maybe 150 hours, and it developed a cracked cylinder which luckily didn't lead to CFIT. I believed I was getting carbon monoxide in the cabin, and had it looked at. The details at this point are a little fuzzy, but I recall that the mechanic (who I trust explicitly) said that his investigation to my complaint led to a "paper trail" into the motor. Although it still had decent compression, it needed a total rebuild. So here was a case where the plane was operating normally, and hiding larger problems even though the engine was considered "low time".
Mike, I love your channel!! You disseminate some really valuable information! Nice job!!!
Mike you said ADS-B in and out. Probably a slip but just in case, ADS-B IN not required.
Engine overhaul also isn't mandatory. Well maintained engines can go past TBO forever as long as they're maintained and test good. I've heard of engines running double of TBO.
Savvy Aviation has videos and articles about how to do that.
I really appreciate your videos. Great content and you consistently have very well thought out and interesting information. Thanks for these videos.
Thanks, Mike! That was an excellent breakdown of information. Very good "aha" moments. God bless you and your family.
An old airplane saying, flying airplanes requires two things, airspeed and money.
Exactly
so you need 2 indicators, airspeed indicator , and money flow indicator, slow money flow causes the plane to stall.
Rule #1 If no hangar, it might be a money pit, depending on the prevailing climate where it was stored. Rule #2. Beauty is only skin deep. You have to inspect all the nooks and crannies for corrosion and/or hidden damage. #3. Complete log books are nice to have, but if you can't read the sloppy hand writing, they can be useless. Rule #4. Be sure to check the TBO on all major components, and BTW, those engines also have a recommended overhaul time based on calendar (years) not just the tach time or Hobbs meter. One final thing; the only guy who never got laid off from an aircraft or engine manufacturer is the one who raised parts prices.
Point #5 is incorrect. Engine overhauls are NOT required after a specific time unless your are using the aircraft under commercial rules (Part 121 or Part 135). For the vast majority of people who will be purchasing used single-engine aircraft to fly for personal purposes (Part 91), the manufacturer specified TBO (time before overhaul) is not a requirement. Granted, that doesn't mean there may be some other reason or requirement to overhaul an engine, e.g. prop strike, evidence of camshaft failure. The engine's age, such as 2000 hours or 12 years, is by itself not.
Great job on your video from a longtime aircraft mechanic.
For sure some good points made. In regard to the engine I think it is important to clarify that the engine has a TBO limited by both hours and time, generally around 2000 hrs base or around 6 years of available service whichever is sooner, the propeller will also have a TBO with hrs flown and/ or time elapsed in available service, I say available service because the engine and prop can be sat idle between TBO and still require strip down inspection/ overhaul just on calendar time elapsed. Engines usually only qualify for longer TBO,s when they are fairly well used i,e more than 30 hrs a month. The biggest enemy of any aircraft is being sat idle it causes big corrosion and deterioration issues not only with the airframe, seals and other perishables but the engine also corrodes badly when left idle, idleness is the single biggest cause in high and unforeseen maintenance. A busy aircraft is always the best option particularly with well documented maintenance with factory overhauled zero timed engine(s) which come with new engine logbook(s)
Yep, being an A & P and pilot. I always get the airplane I am about to buy inspected by another person in addition to my inspection just in case I missed something important due to my excitement about buying an aircraft.
As this video described, I learned life lessons of being cheap and paying big later.
Can you do repairs on your private plane yourself? I’ve heard you could do this as long as you have an experimental sign on the aircraft. I’ve done all my cars maintenance, big or small. Unfortunate it costs the price of a used plane for an engine overhaul something is wrong there...
overhaul is not a requirement unless the aircraft is flown under commercial operations, there are many o320s over 3000 SMOH that are still getting good compression readings. Always take it case by case.
Owning a airplane is like owning a expensive time share. If you use it to its fullest extent, you'll break even on the cost, but you'll have the time of your life. If you don't use it to the fullest, It will be a nightmare.
Good video. Of course the log books are number 1. But I would classify the Total Time on the engine as the number 2 issue. Often you will see a good airplane with a low price, and find out that the engine is due for overhaul. Also sometimes especially if the airplane has not been flown in several years, even though the engine is say low or mid time a compression check will turn up some low reading cylinders. In this case you could just have a "top overhaul" preformed for much less than a complete re-build.
And don’t forget when these aircraft have been sitting idle for years the corrosion & rust that builds up internally on those engines can and will be fatal if not broken down and inspected with the rest of your acceptance inspection. I can’t tell you how many wrist pins have failed due to rust buildup and not doing an internal inspection. Too many and with an A&P licensed owners. Too many!! Keep them flying safe. Never be afraid to inspect the inside of an engine because it will tell you the most about the operation and condition of how this aircraft was flown and respected!! Remember hanger queens can fail too!
Man I haven’t even seen a Beechcraft Skipper(the plane I got my private in ) or Piper Tomahawk in twenty years, can’t imagine trying to keep one of those flying today.
Although there is little chance of a plane flying into my life just yet, you Sir have given out some sound advice I had no clue about previously.Thank you! Subbed.
At the top of the importance of inspecting a prospective purchase candidate's log books is to verify compliance with ADs. If a seller did not comply with ALL A.D.s, I wouldn't walk - I'd run away from the deal. It'd be a peek into how they treated the airplane overall.
As far as engine overhauls, best to get in the habit of putting a certain amount of money per hour you fly into an account just for that shocker of an event. Sorta like a college fund. Save little-by-little over time, or face writing a huge tuition check!
First, thanks for you’re content, keep it up!
I don’t think a prebuy inspection can be emphasized enough. We bought a Beech Sierra at what was considered the lower part of the fair market value. If we had a better prebuy, we would have learned someone used silicon seal on the crankcase and the jugs. Also, if the top was borescoped, they might have seen the spalling camshaft.
What we saw was an aircraft with good paint and ok interior. The instruments all seemed ok. Also, the SMOH was about 900, not even the halfway point for the engine. The issue was that it was improperly maintained and it the last time it was overhauled was 16 years before we bought it!
One day we were taking off, this is after flying FL to OR and the plane sitting a couple weeks, and we weren’t making enough power to climb more than 500 feet above the ground. Luckily we were able to land safely on the airfield and then we found out all the things I just told you.
We ended up getting a factory reman put on the plane! $40k for material and labor!! Not such a good buy folks.
After several instruments being sent out for overhaul, landing gear pump being changed, new batteries, we had a great plane. Paying a trusted mechanic $500-$1500 or whatever(it depends on region and plane) is a very good idea, it will save you in the long run.
(Btw - a GA engine that is over 12 years old can be considered suspect for overhaul. That’s not to say there aren’t excellent maintained engines out there at that age that are great and can go beyond TBO, just saying buyer beware!!!!)
Great advice, especially regarding extra caution on 12+ year old GA engines.
I really want an experimental RV but worried even more structural problems could be hidden.
Rein Hart - you have to have an A&P IA that is familiar with type, or in the case of an RV experimental, an experienced builder too, do a prebuy. With certified it is easier to find a person, with experimental you really need to look around.
jonnydwolf indeed. At my home airport half the hangars are RVs! They are having all the fun doing aerobatics and enjoying the performance. Each have custom panels too. It’s really got me into it.
Great video on the hidden costs of buying a "cheap" airplane. Rule #1 in aviation, there is no such thing as cheap!
Great Insider Information. Essentials to know for the safety of Pocket & Man.👍👍👍
Hello from Uzbekistan. Thank you for the video and for the buzz that you present to us.
As a flight instructor I've seen dozens of people buy airplanes based on the sticker price and not know the engine is up for overhaul in 100 hours, or think that's "plenty of time". The folks who try to save the most money by doing work themselves on their "certified" airplanes (questionable if some of these airplanes are still legally certified now, depending how closely they worked with an engineer), or get into airplanes that are more complex because the price is right, these pilots end up with the most surprise expenses and have lower satisfaction overall.
Probably the biggest mistake I see people make is purchasing an airplane before completing their PPL. This could be a good strategy if they end up keeping that airplane, but oftentimes the airplane they buy doesn't end up suiting the role they wanted it for, and they didn't have the experience to know that (range, gross weight, speed, avionics, fiki, etc). Remember an engine overhaul on most of the GA stuff out there costs more than a PPL... Aircraft ownership is kind of like getting a second pilot's license. Lots to learn about ADs, how maintenance works to inform picking a good shop, tracking calendar and hours airworthiness items and parts, even just finding a replacement part on some of these older airplanes can be a week of searching and making calls.
Overall I know many pilots who love having their own airplanes, but cost is never the reason why.
Part 91 operations do not require an engine overhaul at TBO. Flown many hours on engines over TBO. Overhaul on condition, evaluate oil, consumption. oil analysis, borescope inspection.
I am impressed! At first I thought.. here we go.. great advice!
It's not like buying an old car. When that car breaks down on the side of the road, you call a tow truck. But, when your plane breaks down in mid air you're screwed.
What you save in the short term, is going to cost you a lot more, in the long term.
As a licensed aircraft mechanic since 1964, and having worked for 2 airlines, both the Navy and Army as a civilian contractor, and in general aviation, I tell potential aircraft buyers my golden rule. When someone asks me what they can buy for $35,000, I tell them to find a partner and now buy a $70,000 plane. I don't think I've ever met a plane owner who needs the plane full time. If you have a partner you get to buy a nicer plane and get to split the costs of ownership.
Good point.
Usual useful level of information! Thanks, Mike!
Excellent advice...I'm looking at a 69 Mooney M20 with 110 SMOH, but older avionics.
Hey, please make more of this type of educating videos. Make say "Top 50 red flags"
Good Stuff Mike..... really enjoy your videos.
While avionics upgrades are a pricey proposition, they are rarely required. It is perfectly legal to fly Victor airways with 2 nav radios, and with an IPad for situational awareness it isn’t that difficult. Also there are people who spend $40k on avionics upgrades to get Ads-b out, but a skyBeacon can be had for $2k. Under part 91 operations there is no legal requirement to overhaul an engine at TBO. In fact more engine failures occur immediately after overhaul, than for high time engines. By overhauling a perfectly good engine you are actually increasing your risk.
Unless you are using the plane for commercial use the TBO isn't a mandated time to overhaul. Many privately own planes have exceeded TBO with great compression.
A used aircraft is "worthless" without a comprehensive log book and historical report on the "weak points" of the specific model. Every manufactured product - every piece of machinery has it's own inherent pluses & minuses and there must be a record of modifications & improvements in these regards !! Last but not least " Don't get suckered into paying top dollar for the previous owner's lack of due diligence !!
I had a buddy looking at a Grumman Yankee.. NICE little aircraft, Always hangared, regularly flown, all AD's up to date, but it still had Narco radios from the 70's installed. The price was REALLY good, and he was chomping at the bit to pull the pin on it, when i reminded him (This was late 2018) about ADS-B that he'd HAVE to have in a year and a half, not to mention his Radio's were a No-Go any longer. By the time he sat down with his Local A&P, and Avionics shop, Just for the MINIMUM to be Legal and Safe, he was looking at around 50-75% of what he was paying for the Aircraft. He ended up going for it, but he went with his eyes open and he's Happy.
Not necessarily. I own a Tailwind W8. Recently moved and somehow misplaced the logs. Is it an issue if I go to sell it? It might or would be to some. Is it worthless? Absolutely not. One needs to know what one is looking at.
Full disclosure,, I have plans to sell my " worthless aircraft " because it does what it is intended to do and it does it very well.
a screw it lets fly. lol
I disagree that it is worthless. It needs a full inspection and to cross check every single AD to ensure they were followed. That said, I wouldn't personally buy one without a log book as I don't want to go through that hassle but it can (and has) been done safely.
@@toadman506 I don't understand - Did he actually pay asking price ?
You are not required to overhaul your engine once the time between overhauls is up. Engines actually have a higher failure rate right after a major overhaul. It's best to have good records on oil analysis and a history of compression numbers to determine when a major overhaul is needed.
Great information regarding before you purchase any older aircraft
Very important video thanks
Can u share a complete case scenario where so one bought an old derelict and how much $ it needed to be fit for flying
my dad and my second cousin and I purchased a Mooney m20E 1965 model a little under 50k, and about a month or so into owning it after we got the annual done; some wires broke when my cousin and his family was flying to Reno Nevada for the air races about a year ago so he had no avionics nothing; and had a hand held radio luckily so he was able to get on the ground without incident so id say check the wiring everywhere when your buying an airplane.
Great advice, simple and to the point with no B!
You can get a used plane for $40 000, Wow! I'll get one, you need to upgrade the avionics for $40 000 and an engine overhaul for $20 000 Ah!!!!!
This IS one of your best Videos. Thanks.
Great Video!
Mike, you are correct to point out the time on the engine as a concern but you are incorrect that when the magic number comes up that it must be overhauled. In nearly every case for your target audience this is incorrect. Keep monitoring compression and watching for metal in the oil filter. The engine will let you know when it needs an overhaul. Infant failures can actually make flying more dangerous for a while than running a high time engine that doesn't need a rebuild.
Really good educational information. Thanks Mike.
Like seriously who gives this video a thumbs down? This was all good information. Great job man.
Stuff the typical person like me wouldn’t ever consider. Being only a car driver, engine overalls are not something you’d consider - but for aviation it’s a lifeline!
Personally I think too much emphasis is put on TBO (Time Before Overhaul) Times on aircraft Engines, Everybody want's that Low-Time Engine..thing is, it's actually BETTER to have an engine that is flown regularly and High time, than one with 100 hours total, but hasnt been flown more than an hour a year for the last decade.
I really appreciate your videos... keep up the great content
Nice man...Mike when you come to visit Brazil with your plane?
Steam gauges are great and fine for IFR. but when the gyroscopes start to wear out, they all seem to eventually go. That is the point where many pilots ask themselves if an EFIS is the best bet.
Most common problem number 6 - Not having a bank balance that covers any of this activity. I'm off out to buy a lottery ticket...
At this rate, I think renting would be a better alternative for those who are on a tight budget to avoid maintenance. But I think this will be beneficial for those who plan to fly for a short amount of hours per year
Awesome, just amazing videos and information. Thanks!!!
Great job on the video Mike!
Great video!! You helped me!
PA 28-235 shown was mine in a 2 way partnership in the 80’s. We paid $15,000 for it with 500 hrs on a major and a modern radio stack. We made a bad decision selling it. Every time I see this plane on the internet, I kick myself. Our downfall was letting a 3rd guy buy in that ruined our experience. The 235 out performs a 182 in every respect and way less money.
How do you inspect for frame structure problems, such as a cracked wingspan or something internal? Can a mechanic get to these areas?
What are the overhaul rules for experimental aircraft engines?
Great info Mike, thanks!
Why would I want to look forward to problems?
These issues are why for someone like myself it makes more sense to buy a kit plane that can be registered as an experimental. It opens up the possibility of using cheap I-pads, and alternative engines in place of more expensive commercial offerings only.
barking.dog.productions1776 but it takes forever to build one.
Yeah lancair makes sweet fast planes. Vans rv good too. Buy a used experimental and pay for comprehensive inspection
@@reinhart482 if he didn't build it himself he can't maintain it himself though you can use uncertified parts to save $$.
@@gringoloco8576 That is not true. If I make any kind of major change to the plane then I cam maintain it myself. Major changes actually include changing the engine, adding slats to the wings, or even just changing the prop, among a host of other relatively fast, simple, and inexpensive changes.
@@reinhart482 I love the speedy planes as much as anyone, but lately I have been looking at some of the amphibs which really open up the possibilities of where you can take it as well as the usefulness. (IMO)
To sum it up, there is no point in owning an airplane unless you have tons of cash. Its like with boats, do your license and rent it, anything goes wrong you return it and walk away with a smile. In Europe you can rent a Cessna 150 or 172 for 105-160EURO(118-181USD) and it´s your turn to check logbooks, walkaround and then decide to fly it...Why own something that will compete with goldiggers attacking your wallet/account?!
Do comm/nav radios in and older airplanes commonly need to be replaced?
Some do, some don’t. The old Cessna Narcos aren’t great. A KX170B is a brick sh*thouse.
David Costello thank you!
What do you think of the first composite airplane the boeing 787 my favorite is the boeing 727-100
TBO is a manufacturers recommendation.... only important if you are renting the plane... you can’t rent a plane over TBO. If you use it for personal use you just have to baby the engine.
Such superb advice.
I see a lot of videos about how you can buy a plane for less than the price of an old civic. This is a good dose of reality. It’s been wisely said, airframes are cheap, engines and avionics the opposite.
Mike; what are the projected costs for overhauling any of the rotax engines ?
Contact your local Rotax dealer for current pricing and options.
Excellent video, Mike!
Very informative.
Very informative, that was very helpful, thanks !
I just want to point out that if you are not using the airplane for commercial purposes, you DO NOT have to have the engine overhauled just because it reaches TBO. If there's nothing really wrong with it, you can keep flying, and keep watching, until it actually needs it. You can go well beyond TBO if you're careful.
We need more how to videos. Thanks for sharing that.
TBO for most engines is a certain number of years OR hours, not just hours. So even if an engine has only 300 hours since TBO, it is still beyond TBO if the typical 12 years (or whatever time the mfr says) has passed. But let’s remember, for private part 91 operation there is NO requirement to overhaul at any hours or any years. As long as the engine is in good condition it can be run well past TBO with complete safety. There is no scientific or mechanical relationship between hours on the engine and it being unsafe. An engine with only 300 hours that doesn’t get run enough can be much more likely to have serious corrosion problems and maintenance than an engine at 3000 hours that runs often.
Thanks so much for the info ......Priceless 5🌟
Mike are there any videos that 8about Charlie brown field
After watching this I think most people would be better off entering into a partnership and buying something relatively new. Partnerships don't usually work out but would get you down the road. It's obvious the avionics upgrade is a gamechanger and not going away. Anyone who flies should be IFR rated anyway. That's what killed Kennedy.
No, his choice to fly in those conditions is what killed him. Plenty of high time non-IFR rated pilots who haven't graveyard spiraled in because they chose to fly over water on a dark night.
@@BStrambo You're correct. Mine was an incorrect statement. But I'm also thinking he should not have transferred to the more powerful low wing until he got the IFR rating in a plane he was familiar with. I gave up trying to fly. Never had the talent. Kennedy had been working on that certification but was a slow learner. BTW, I got into one of those spirals. That was enough for me! But I'm still intrigued with the whole thing. The logistics of travel and mechanisms in a plane were always more fascinating to me than the flying. Tells you I'm not a pilot.
The people that make excuses for high repair and overhaul costs are the same people that will complain and question why about costs being too high for such things as dental.
Captive customers in both cases with "if you want it, you will pay for it" holds for the suppliers and the mechanics.
The cost of avionics alone is reason enough to go the experimental route. Just make sure you fully inspect the structure and run all the ultrasonic inspections.
good advice , thank you for posting !
At the cost of an engine overhaul, its almost worth it to buy a whole new engine?
Tack on another $10k for a factory new engine. Overhauling is more cost-effective, and most engines can be overhauled several times before the core has to be scrapped.
It depends more on the plane and the engine. If it is a good engine with good power and a good match for the air frame, overhaul is certainly cheaper because the new engine is probably $5-$10k+ more (and maybe additional labor and parts if a different engine type than original) and the overhaul will take it back to 0 time.
On the other hand, if we are talking a very old C172 with a 6 cylinder Continental O300 only making 145 horses that sets up a different scenario. That engine while smooth running and reliable is pretty weak. With 6 cylinders and being so old, it cost more to overhaul due to 2 more cylinders and hard to find parts! So, faced with a $25k overhaul or a $30-$40k Lycoming 160 or 180 horse upgrade...(I assume there are STC's for the now standard 172 Lycoming engine installs.) You can also find overhauled engines for less and get a few thou for the Continental core which perhaps make a swap close to break-even vs. overhaul.
I don't own a plane yet, but I'm looking hard at the old C 172s and Cherokee 140s. The O320 in the Cherokee is way more common, can be upgraded with a Powerflow exhaust and high flow air filter and is cheaper to overhaul so it is on my short list.
A private (not for hire/commercial) pilot does not have to get the engine overhauled at TBO. Way back when, the FAA made the engine manufacturers come up with a number that they then enforce on commercial operators. A very well-maintained, oil analyzed, cylinders making good compression low wear engine could safely go way past TBO. However, as a buyer if you are buying near TBO, better factor the overhaul price into your offer because you haven't been flying/maintaining this engine for the last decade to really know it.
Great real world tips...thanks for posting!
Im a licensed A&P looking to get back in the air with my own 182 wanna fly a few different model before I decide, If you have a 182 and it neeeds an A&P to do the work...I'll trade my labor for some flight time,