Update: while Natalia claimed in her caption that she "never identified fully as a vegan," she did, indeed label herself one on her account in 2022, as seen in the caption and on-screen text of this video: instagram.com/p/CjGMSGGjDno/ (there's another reel where she mentions "my fellow vegans" and I'm sure at least a few more). While I believe that she didn't consider herself one privately, she did, at least publicly, label herself as such. There's a chance she could have been confused or truly believed she was at the time and then realized later she wasn't, but I feel this may have ultimately contributed to confusion in her audience. Certainly now we can't say "she never claimed to be vegan" 🤷🏻♀
Person who was never vegan who doesn't claim to have ever been vegan is still not vegan. Got it. The only thing surprising or interesting to me here is how forthcoming a person can be about never checking their purchases for cruelty. I understand that she likely wrote that to reinforce the idea that she was never vegan, further preventing the "you were never vegan anyway!" responses from vegans, but it just comes off to me as really cold and heartless.
@@longevitycoach1573 The main difference is that raising a cow to prematurely kill it for its flesh isn’t necessary or done for survival. It’s done to satisfy a taste preference. But we do need to eat something, right? So we eat the foods that cause the least harm, which happens to be plants. Basically, imagine you need to drive from point A to point B, in doing so you are going to accidentally kill 3 insects. Does that justify you to intentionally run over and kill a dog as well?
I hadn't hear of her before. So, a non vegan telling us they're still not vegan. She admits she went plant based to keep her weight low not for any ethical reason, of course it would not last. Pretty sad but I think this is the case for a lot of plant based cooks on social media, it's not about the animals for them.
Everyone uses animal products. Just accept the facts and move on. We can appreciate that you want others to believe you care more for animals than the average omnivore, the facts however tell a different story. Why do you use animal products needlessly while pretending to be against it?
I really don't understand people having these cravings: I've been a vegan since 2013, and that was after 19 years as a vegetarian, and have never craved an animal food enough to eat animals. I found another source of those nutrients. But I suspect a lot of these cravings are psychological rather than physiological, and can be disciplined with full self-awarenss, which many of these young sosh media people lack. Sorry if that sounds heartless, maybe it's my Gen Xing talking. I credit her with never passing herself off as a vegan--that is, knowing the definition--and hope that this further emphasizes that veganism is not a diet. Appreciate your analysis of this; thanks for posting!
Sincere question, have you ever experienced an eating disorder? Self-discipline as restriction can be a psychologically consuming aspect of this. As a vegan in ED recovery I do not fault her or anyone who struggles with this. I assume others' best intentions and acknowledge their best efforts.
Same here, I don’t crave anything, apart from ready salted crisps, which are vegan if I’ve had alcohol 😊 I also suffer disordered eating on and off in my life, and still don’t crave but I am a control freak, so wouldn’t expect to crave or want anything that goes against my own strong moral standing and never would.
@@lilgorgo I have not, but I assume someone having the privilege of this creator has gotten a formal diagnosis and treatment of it, and has behavioral tactics to address it. I am not unaware of the characteristics of an eating disorder, but the typical track one sees of people with eating disorders who go vegan is that it is liberating because it removes the need for self-discipline from the individual by establishing external boundaries. Every patient is different, of course.
@@tamcon72 what if we assess it from a different view? As Poppy mentioned alcohol. Do we make a judgement of moral failure on the alcoholic who relapses, even after receiving formal diagnosis and treatment, and after having developed behavioral tactics for living in sobriety? Are they simply too "weak" to exist within the external boundaries that have been established? Do we apply the same standards to someone living with major depressive disorder, who despite having learned how to adapt to their constant pain seemingly "well", eventually does take their life? Do we measure all mental disorders by the same ruler? Do we assign them all the same dimensions of ability and responsibility? Or do we allow space for the possibility that the human brain can be a complex web of processes, interdependence and association, sometimes a terrible and terrifying electrical organ of which the organism sharing the body may sometimes possess and sometimes be possessed by? Compassion for all animals, even the homo sapient.
I think it's a great point about psychological vs physiological cravings, Tamara! And as I've mentioned before, if it's physiological, I would be concerned about deficiencies and heading straight to the doctor. Unfortunately, blood tests/results are hardly ever mentioned in these announcements; in fact doctors are only mentioned in vague claims "my doctor was really concerned"/"my doctor said I had to change my diet." For me I personally never have a psychological craving that can't be met with a comparable vegan substitute.
Imagine admitting that you never check products for cruelty 💀 People have absolutely no shame. Even non-vegans typically care about products being labeled cruelty free and are aware of how horrible and unnecessary cosmetic animal testing is
I absolutely don't give a crap about these ex-vegan influencers. Veganism was only about the diet for them and nothing more, despite what they say. It's not going to make a ripple in the pond if they go omni or whatever. We shouldn't give them any exposure. I hope all the videos that discuss ex-vegans are banished to the corn field. LOL.
Exactly... It was hard for me give up dairy (I don't care for meat.. becuz i turned vegetarian when i was 10.. it's been 8 lomg years.. i can't even tolerate the sight or the smell of real meat..) .. but dairy was a different story ...we don't have dairy alternatives.. but now i focus on things i can eat..and that has made me even more creative..
You see Marielle, she IS still on a "restrictive diet". She restricts SO MANY things: grasshoppers, dog meat, cat meat, worms, and so much more! But... I bet it's because... She doesn't view those things as "food". Funny how what you view as food seems to define if you "restrict" or not. Bottom line. She still views animals as food. You and I don't. So we're not on "restrictive diets". We simply eat all things we consider "food". 🖤🖤🖤
This is a very good point. I haven't had meat since I was 12. It doesn't feel like restriction because I don't view that as food anymore. The idea of putting it in my body makes me sick, and it would probably give me severe stomach issues if I tried to eat it now. A vegan diet isn't restrictive if you don't think of animal products as something you want to consume. And there are plenty of great alternatives now to get the same flavors. Miyoko's cheese for the win.
HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! 💯 And that says everything we need to know about people's lack of understanding of it, and their motivation for adapting a vegan diet in the first place. There's many things we as humans in the Western world don't eat that people in other parts of the world eat. So why don't people accuse the SAD diet of being restrictive? It's all about perspective indeed.
We often hear that X% of a country is vegan, but I'd love to see some stats on this. I know I've never been asked in a poll or census. How do they define it in the question (if they even go that far)? How many in that % are virtue signalling plant-based dieters and/or people who have no clue what veganism is?
Correlation is not the same as causation. People just don't get it. Just because there might be a correlation between veganism and orthorexia, doesn't mean veganism causes orthorexia. It seems more like people who already are obsessed with weight loss and avoiding foods feel like veganism gives them an excuse to say they can't eat most things when in a public or social situation, where people would question her. It gives "a reason" because most people don't understand veganism and already assume that veganism is restrictive so they will take their word for it that that's why they won't eat anything.
Ed Winters does an excellent job of pointing out the bizarre rationale of ex vegans in this video. Nat claims to have never been vegan in the first place, but all these ex vegans are always looking for someone or something to blame. ruclips.net/video/NN-nDYeafIU/видео.htmlsi=33KqalKvOE64uISZ
And on travelling part - it sounds like just being lazy and I thought that traveling was about discovering new things. Last month we've been to a relatively small town in Germany which we've been told was a more traditional part and it was probably going to be hard to find any vegan options. Imagine my surprise when with the little help of my phone we were able to find a strictly-vegan restaurant a 5 minute walk from where we were staying (and it turned out to be a really lovely place and the owner was such a kind persion!). Then on next day I randomly passed a restuaruant that had numerous vegetearian and vegan options and then a minute later a falafel stand, and I wasn't even trying because we were more than happy with the first vegan place we found. Even the small hotel we were staying out it turned out had two vegan meals you could order for dinner.
I think the ED conversation ties into accessibility. When we think of food accessibility we often think of the price of food and how abundant it is, but we also need to consider a person's unique limitations. It's up to the individual to be honest with themselves about what they can do. Not everyone who experienced an ED can predict what will trigger them though, and not wanting to take that risk is understandable. There are some situations where a person who once had an ED can healthily transition to a vegan lifestyle--I know some folks who did. Whether a person can do it is up to no one besides themselves. With Nat, things feel weird because she demonstrated that she can do well on a plant-based diet but gave into "cravings"... I would hope Nat considers sourcing animal products from small operations with higher standards for animal welfare as opposed to factory farms/big box stores--that's at least something. Someone can understand that veganism is not for them due to their history and still try to eliminate animal suffering in their life to the extent possible. Nat never seems to have misrepresented herself as a vegan, so this news isn't groundbreaking--but I'm concerned with her lack of empathy for animals in general. I would like to see Nat actively avoid animal products and testing when buying personal care products. It doesn't seem like doing so would be taxing for her, and her admitting that she doesn't look for non-animal tested products so brazenly has influence over her audience.
I agree with you on a lot of this! Although I will say, when someone has a years-long entirely vegan social media presence (i.e. cooking exclusively vegan food), I tend to read into it that they must be vegan or have values that align with my own. I'm learning that's a failing on my part, but it's an assumption that naturally happens, which leads into the jarring/disappointed response I feel when I learn the reality. And unfortunately, in her caption, she says when she buys non-vegan ingredients in the future she will "ensure they are of good, sustainable quality"--absolutely no mention of ethics. I find it pretty shocking that someone who ate mostly/entirely plants for years would have absolutely no inclination toward animal ethics, but she does seem to be taking a hard-line stance of "my health is more important than anything else," which is completely within her right to do, but again, always hard to see.
I think 🤔 suffer from some sort of disordered eating. I haven’t been formally diagnosed, but a quick google search tells me that I am. That being said… I don’t suffer from cravings because I get enough calories from the food that I eat… some days too much food. They never seem to understand that eating meat and dairy and eggs again just continues the disordered eating. They need to deal with whatever underlying cause that lead to the disordered eating in the first place. Also, it just seems that her business was going a little flat and she decided to hitch her train to the bandwagon and see whether she can earn more money.
I agree in these cases an underlying cause seems to be the main issue and likely won't be fixed with a superficial change. Again, though, I am not an expert! Sending you positive thoughts and I hope you are able to get whatever help you need!
I went vegetarian while having an eating disorder, it helped me get over the sick thought because food became something through which I could express my values and something that was not only about me and having control and how I wanted to look anymore. I became vegan after healing my relationship with food, and have now been vegan for 3 years. Being vegan further helped me to get away from thoughts that were centered on just me and taught me also how to properly take care of my body
Thank you for sharing this 🫶🏻 I have heard the same thing from many vegans with ED pasts. I also wonder how much the suppressed guilt over eating foods we know caused living beings to suffer swirls with general food guilt and creates this toxic emotional landscape. I never had a diagnosed ED but struggled with emotional eating and after going vegan my relationship with food just felt so pure and lovely, whereas before it was always riddled with guilt. That could have been from a few factors (getting older, being in therapy, etc) but it's an interesting correlation I have thought about before.
Posted before I listened to the discussion in the video: I like her explanation because she is honest and does not give (too many) BS arguments. If all ex-"vegans" would announce their diet change like she did I would have no issues with ex-vegan videos. This does not mean I agree with her decision. Let me make that very clear, but she is allowed to make her own mistakes. I draw the line at (half-)willingly spreading misinformation.
Absolutely!! Her content is quite repetitive, not because it's vegan, but because she basically bases all her recipes around some sort of "creamy beans" with veggies/seasonings, and some type of thin carb dragging through it 😂 (again, I do think many of her recipes look good but I feel the limitation was self-induced).
I really recommend the book "Veganism and Eating Disorder Recovery" by Jenn Friedman about the approach of vegans get when they're inpatient care or even admitting that they are vegan when they are dealing with an eating disorder to mental health professionals.
I kinda disagree with you on this one. Often we complain that the so called ex vegans were never vegan to begin with, since they didn’t do it for animal rights issues, they were simply following a plant based diet. People often throw on our faces that 84% number of people who supposedly quit being vegan, and we have to always explain that not everyone who goes on a plant based diet is vegan, that it isn’t just a diet. That it is more difficult for someone who is actually vegan to quit. Well here we have someone who is actually honest and says she was never vegan to begin with, that she did it for all these wrong reasons, and that now she wants to try other things. We should be appreciative. We can’t force people to care about animals like we do, unfortunately. Some people just don’t. It’s like that old saying, I can’t convince you that you need to care! Either you have the empathy or you don’t, and plenty of people don’t. And regarding her disordered eating, a plant based diet is restrictive by definition, and we all know it. You have to be reading labels, looking for the fine print on menus, trying to figure out what they used in the dressing. The world let’s us know this every day how restrictive it is, so I can see how someone recovering from ED might forgo it. Not saying it can’t be done being vegan, but being vegan was not important to her, so at that point it just became an obstacle. She doesn’t owe us anything because she never claimed to be vegan, and she can have her preferences and opinions regarding the plant substitutes. Sure she’s an influencer and her voice carries, which is why she needs to be honest in her opinion, and she is. The sponsorship is the dishonest part if she continues to think this way, but it wouldn’t be the first time an influencer sells something they don’t believe in.
I appreciate your take! As I mentioned in the video I did appreciate her honesty. In terms of the restriction, in her caption she says she's re-incorporating eggs, fish and some cheese, so she's not exactly "letting go of the restrictive diet" (as she says later in her caption); she's still "restricting" some foods if we're being technical. I just find it interesting what people qualify as "restrictive." As another comment on here pointed out, vegans don't see animal products as food so not eating them doesn't feel restrictive. A vegan diet being seen as, or described as "restrictive," in my mind, is a carnist-centric as well as diet culture-centric interpretation.
@@TotallyForkable that’s fair, it’s interesting that she’s not going beyond fish, she may have some feelings about animal rights that she’s not sharing. Fish and eggs seem to be a loophole to some legit ex vegans (Miley ‘brain fog’ Cyrus).
Just no conviction to ethics or care for others on display, another case study for the pages of human selfishness in history. Keep ethically evolving good people 💚
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme why don't U care for other animals? Carnism is irrational and a burden on the innocent animals you pay to be exploited as well as the environment. Studies show cats can be healthy on a plant based diet if you look into Dr. Andrew Nights lectures.
@@joshwong800 My physiology responds far better to WF omni. than to WFPB, so I choose to thrive on the former, rather than merely to survive on the latter. Obviously, Vs cannot countenance the possibility of WFPB being deficient, for any, as that would pull the rug from the ethical argument. I've just fed roasted chicken to 1 of the😺in my care, which isn't a good fit for your simplistic ideology/religion. I won't be entering the V kindergarten.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme using personal anecdotes is a very low bar of evidence to ascertain any truth value so you don't know what is best for your physiology, a junkie could easily say the same cos 'feelings though'. The science shows the truth and RCT's trump anecdotal based claims every day. If you want to be an ethical person then you have the resources to do better.
These types of videos are getting tiresome. Can we get a series where long-term vegans from all over are interviewed? Just normal people relaying how they became and stayed vegan, what's easy, what's hard, etc. that would be really interesting.
I definitely understand that perspective. Personally I feel it’s important to make videos like this to help point out public misrepresentations/mischaracterizations about veganism. When influential people make statements implying “there’s no good alternatives, vegan cooking is limiting, etc” to their hundreds of thousands or millions of followers, I feel it can be incredibly damaging to perceptions around veganism. In making these videos my goal is to do my small part to refute these claims and give my perspective. That being said I LOVE the idea of also spotlighting longtime vegans and giving the opposing perspective!
I can see that people with anorexia might think a vegan diet will help them in their drive to get as skinny as possible. It seems to be a theme in many of these "former vegan" videos that those who adopt a "vegan diet" for other than ethical reasons will eventually backslide into meat eating. Can I feel angry with such a person? Not really, as long as they don't try to grift off the change. The ex-vegan featured in this video will at least try to stay as plant-based in her and her significant other's diet as possible. If only all meateaters would reduce their meat consumption as much as she is ( to 15% of her diet), we would be a lot further along in reducing climate change and animal suffering. I originally adopted veganism for health reasons. While my LDL cholesterol has dropped, my high blood pressure has persisted. I think a steady diet of Ed Winters videos has brought me around to a more ethical stance on veganism. I can't picture ever going back to funding the killing of animals. Oh, damn, that reminds me to take my blood pressure medicine.
It is likely that the Vegetarian Butcher contacted her because she said there were not good alternatives for fish, basically to "change her opinion" and that of her viewers. To call that the opposite of authentic might be a bit much. In fact, it coold be considered a clever move by the company.
It's definitely possible, but having a general awareness of how influencer partnerships work, they tend to be planned/scheduled months in advance. And yes, could be a strategic/smart move on VB's part, but on Natalia's part I can't see that decision being motivated by anything other than money. If she had acknowledged something like: "in the past, I haven't been impressed with fish alternatives, but VB hit the nail on the head with this one," I would believe it more.
Vegan causes eating disorder? Here's some interesting facts: - I've been a vegan for over a year now. - I've been reguarly going to a gym for two months now because at the start of this year my weight was nearly 100kg (97kg to be exact) - I only dropped from 97 to 95 because I still eat a looooot (and there have been so many new vegan foods and options at restaurants popping out I feel like there's always something new I'm just dying to try xD) But yeah, gotta love how people still keep saying how being vegan causes eating disorder and will make you anorexic. Guess it's just another lie people keep telling themselves to justify all the animal cruelty that goes on. Evolution and progress is sadly a slow process especially for some.
No good plant based eggs? Some soft tofu and a bit of black salt with a tiny bit of nutritional yeast tastes as good and better than any scrambled eggs I ever tired. I no longer harm my bodi: just the bodies of others.
Personally I agree! Also, in the US at least, JustEgg has changed many people's lives! However, Nat seems to be a "gooey poached egg" girly so not sure if she can find something comparable, but I'm sure it won't be long until a product is readily available. And 💯 on your last line!
Going WFPB vegan had freed me from eating disorders and disease. Eating disorders are part of mindset, a distorted one that is caused by a lot of different factors, one being self esteem and our programming etc... I speak about this at length in all my work. Deficiencies, disorders eating can come with any diet. One thing I found helped me is this though: what is important to me: my impact as a soul in this world and other living beings. I feel much more connected and in tune knowing I am part of something that promotes life instead death. I know it is personal, but this is me... ❤ Well done M xx
Thank you so much for sharing this perspective, Chantal. And yes, as you said, it is deeply personal, and everyone is different, but I have heard similar perspective from other vegans with ED histories.
Seems to me she was running out of content. Maybe I am wrong. She admitted to not changing her diet for vegan issues and was obviously never vegan. So she appears to say screw the animals and add the cruelty foods to the recipes to maintain her social media presence.
Yes, I had the same thought. She could have changed her own diet without changing her content. The content change is more of a public/outward change having to do entirely with her business.
A random aside but we also need to be seeing experts on nutrition for our nutrition. Doctors in America are about as qualified as a nutritionist would be in medical practice. When taking nutrition tests later in their tenure they lean around 50% correct.
Veganism is all about the animals, it’s not about losing weight or a diet, it’s a lifestyle. If you are not for the animals then you are not vegan, you are plant based. The folk who go back to eating g animals were never vegan in the first place, they were WFPB. I went vegan for the animals, I live a full vegan lifestyle and have suffered disordered eating patterns on and off most of my life and nothing would ever make me go back to eating them.
Have you heard about Joey Chestnut, the eleventh time Nathan's hot dog eating champion? He's been barred from the contest this year because he's partnered-up with Impossible or Beyond Meat. Nathan's brand claims it because they are their "competitor". I think it's hilarious and Nathan's is just being petty and ridiculous.
I would look at the glass half full rather than half empty. Natalia's 85% plant based diet and recipes is better than 0%. Maybe she can influence 100% meat eaters and turn them into 85% plant based.
I see your point; I think I feel the same way with this as with restaurants that were vegan and then added animal foods to the menu. Sure, there are omni restaurants that have vegan options that we support, but something about being vegan (in Natalia's case, all the recipes on her account being vegan) and then changing in the other direction just feels...backwards and hard to accept. But I don't disagree that she's still inspiring people with plant-forward recipes and that is definitely a good thing.
@@TotallyForkableI think you sort of explained in the video why it feels backwards - being vegan/plant-based makes you more likely to really understand the suffering involved, and their reasons for reverting often spread misinformation. Also, I imagine a video about a meat-eater continuing to eat meat wouldn’t be quite as engaging
😂 they were skinny artisanal breadsticks. I did, however, do a "bit" in the video where I pretended to smoke one like a cigarette, which led me on a mini-rant about how f***ed up it was that there used to be candy cigarettes for kids 🫠
And here I am vegan 8 years with many fat parts that I hate, never exceed 2000 kcal a day, most days get 1700. Hoping the vegan skininess kicks in soon
Seeing a vegan diet as a "shortcut to skinniness" is as ridiculous as seeing a SAD diet as a "shortcut to skinniness." Any diet can make you gain or lose weight, largely depending on the types of food you eat and how much of it.
Beyond disappointing. Not creative enough to cook without cruelty? That's a new one. Don't be rude to staff, exploit and slaughter animals. She has no idea how lucky she is to live in a country that has SO MANY vegan alternatives. I hope she seeks help fir her disordered eating. I know first hand that ED clinics often insist vegans adopt animal foods in recovery, but there's been a recent movement of ED specialists to recognize that ethical vegans need to recover without sacrificing ethics. But that's the crux of it, anyway, right? She isn't vegan for the animals. So sad.
I agree; the creativity thing really felt like a copout; why even include that in her reasoning? And it's great to hear that clinics are recognizing the ethics of veganism as separate from the "using it to restrict" aspect.
As a mostly plant based person who eats fish I think the world would be a million times better off if people ate like that rather than SAD. The all or nothing aspect of the argument turns me off from being vegan, even as I edge closer to being fully plant based.
Because not paying for the intentional abuse of ALL animals (especially as a grocery store shopper) is just wayyy too “all or nothing”! Fish feel pain and experience emotions, too; not just mammals.
@@sethboviper I guarantee people reading her statements and watching her recipes now will infer that they can eat fish, and by extension other animals. That's just human nature.
This entire video is self righteous. There is a reason that 99% of the people who try to eat a vegan diet fail- it’s not sustainable long term. The people who do make it work are outliers.
Oh lets make up statistics! 99% of people who try any diet fall. 99% of people who try to change lifelong habits fail. 99% of people who make new years resolutions fail!
Update: while Natalia claimed in her caption that she "never identified fully as a vegan," she did, indeed label herself one on her account in 2022, as seen in the caption and on-screen text of this video: instagram.com/p/CjGMSGGjDno/ (there's another reel where she mentions "my fellow vegans" and I'm sure at least a few more). While I believe that she didn't consider herself one privately, she did, at least publicly, label herself as such. There's a chance she could have been confused or truly believed she was at the time and then realized later she wasn't, but I feel this may have ultimately contributed to confusion in her audience. Certainly now we can't say "she never claimed to be vegan" 🤷🏻♀
Person who was never vegan who doesn't claim to have ever been vegan is still not vegan. Got it. The only thing surprising or interesting to me here is how forthcoming a person can be about never checking their purchases for cruelty. I understand that she likely wrote that to reinforce the idea that she was never vegan, further preventing the "you were never vegan anyway!" responses from vegans, but it just comes off to me as really cold and heartless.
yeah.. that part.. she literally said she doesn't give af about animals just by admitting to that.
Yes, cold and heartless. I agree.
@@VeganBambi please tell me the difference between killing a cow to eat its meat or killing the potatoes beetle to eat its potatoes.
@@longevitycoach1573 The main difference is that raising a cow to prematurely kill it for its flesh isn’t necessary or done for survival. It’s done to satisfy a taste preference. But we do need to eat something, right? So we eat the foods that cause the least harm, which happens to be plants. Basically, imagine you need to drive from point A to point B, in doing so you are going to accidentally kill 3 insects. Does that justify you to intentionally run over and kill a dog as well?
You use animal products just like she does.
No point in pretending you don't.
Why do you use animal products while only pretending to be against it?
I hadn't hear of her before. So, a non vegan telling us they're still not vegan.
She admits she went plant based to keep her weight low not for any ethical reason, of course it would not last. Pretty sad but I think this is the case for a lot of plant based cooks on social media, it's not about the animals for them.
Everyone uses animal products.
Just accept the facts and move on.
We can appreciate that you want others to believe you care more for animals than the average omnivore, the facts however tell a different story.
Why do you use animal products needlessly while pretending to be against it?
The chipmunks were kind enough to return to help me in this video! Please give them a warm welcome! 🐿️🐿️
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I really don't understand people having these cravings: I've been a vegan since 2013, and that was after 19 years as a vegetarian, and have never craved an animal food enough to eat animals. I found another source of those nutrients. But I suspect a lot of these cravings are psychological rather than physiological, and can be disciplined with full self-awarenss, which many of these young sosh media people lack. Sorry if that sounds heartless, maybe it's my Gen Xing talking. I credit her with never passing herself off as a vegan--that is, knowing the definition--and hope that this further emphasizes that veganism is not a diet. Appreciate your analysis of this; thanks for posting!
Sincere question, have you ever experienced an eating disorder? Self-discipline as restriction can be a psychologically consuming aspect of this. As a vegan in ED recovery I do not fault her or anyone who struggles with this. I assume others' best intentions and acknowledge their best efforts.
Same here, I don’t crave anything, apart from ready salted crisps, which are vegan if I’ve had alcohol 😊
I also suffer disordered eating on and off in my life, and still don’t crave but I am a control freak, so wouldn’t expect to crave or want anything that goes against my own strong moral standing and never would.
@@lilgorgo I have not, but I assume someone having the privilege of this creator has gotten a formal diagnosis and treatment of it, and has behavioral tactics to address it. I am not unaware of the characteristics of an eating disorder, but the typical track one sees of people with eating disorders who go vegan is that it is liberating because it removes the need for self-discipline from the individual by establishing external boundaries. Every patient is different, of course.
@@tamcon72 what if we assess it from a different view? As Poppy mentioned alcohol. Do we make a judgement of moral failure on the alcoholic who relapses, even after receiving formal diagnosis and treatment, and after having developed behavioral tactics for living in sobriety? Are they simply too "weak" to exist within the external boundaries that have been established? Do we apply the same standards to someone living with major depressive disorder, who despite having learned how to adapt to their constant pain seemingly "well", eventually does take their life? Do we measure all mental disorders by the same ruler? Do we assign them all the same dimensions of ability and responsibility? Or do we allow space for the possibility that the human brain can be a complex web of processes, interdependence and association, sometimes a terrible and terrifying electrical organ of which the organism sharing the body may sometimes possess and sometimes be possessed by? Compassion for all animals, even the homo sapient.
I think it's a great point about psychological vs physiological cravings, Tamara! And as I've mentioned before, if it's physiological, I would be concerned about deficiencies and heading straight to the doctor. Unfortunately, blood tests/results are hardly ever mentioned in these announcements; in fact doctors are only mentioned in vague claims "my doctor was really concerned"/"my doctor said I had to change my diet." For me I personally never have a psychological craving that can't be met with a comparable vegan substitute.
Imagine admitting that you never check products for cruelty 💀 People have absolutely no shame. Even non-vegans typically care about products being labeled cruelty free and are aware of how horrible and unnecessary cosmetic animal testing is
Yes! Coming from someone who ate a plant-based diet for years makes it even more shocking IMO.
I absolutely don't give a crap about these ex-vegan influencers. Veganism was only about the diet for them and nothing more, despite what they say. It's not going to make a ripple in the pond if they go omni or whatever. We shouldn't give them any exposure. I hope all the videos that discuss ex-vegans are banished to the corn field. LOL.
Exactly... It was hard for me give up dairy (I don't care for meat.. becuz i turned vegetarian when i was 10.. it's been 8 lomg years.. i can't even tolerate the sight or the smell of real meat..) .. but dairy was a different story ...we don't have dairy alternatives.. but now i focus on things i can eat..and that has made me even more creative..
You see Marielle, she IS still on a "restrictive diet". She restricts SO MANY things: grasshoppers, dog meat, cat meat, worms, and so much more!
But... I bet it's because... She doesn't view those things as "food".
Funny how what you view as food seems to define if you "restrict" or not.
Bottom line. She still views animals as food. You and I don't. So we're not on "restrictive diets". We simply eat all things we consider "food". 🖤🖤🖤
This is a very good point. I haven't had meat since I was 12. It doesn't feel like restriction because I don't view that as food anymore. The idea of putting it in my body makes me sick, and it would probably give me severe stomach issues if I tried to eat it now. A vegan diet isn't restrictive if you don't think of animal products as something you want to consume. And there are plenty of great alternatives now to get the same flavors. Miyoko's cheese for the win.
HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! 💯 And that says everything we need to know about people's lack of understanding of it, and their motivation for adapting a vegan diet in the first place. There's many things we as humans in the Western world don't eat that people in other parts of the world eat. So why don't people accuse the SAD diet of being restrictive? It's all about perspective indeed.
This is the best argument ever.
@@TotallyForkable Yes!!!
We often hear that X% of a country is vegan, but I'd love to see some stats on this. I know I've never been asked in a poll or census. How do they define it in the question (if they even go that far)? How many in that % are virtue signalling plant-based dieters and/or people who have no clue what veganism is?
I wonder the same thing. Seems very hard to quantify and I wonder exactly how it's done.
Didn’t know her before. Definitely won't know her any further now. 😂
Bait and switch is the perfect description.
I'm too online 😂
"As someone who lives to eat, not eat to live"... good lord 🙄
Correlation is not the same as causation. People just don't get it. Just because there might be a correlation between veganism and orthorexia, doesn't mean veganism causes orthorexia. It seems more like people who already are obsessed with weight loss and avoiding foods feel like veganism gives them an excuse to say they can't eat most things when in a public or social situation, where people would question her. It gives "a reason" because most people don't understand veganism and already assume that veganism is restrictive so they will take their word for it that that's why they won't eat anything.
💯 agree!
Ed Winters does an excellent job of pointing out the bizarre rationale of ex vegans in this video. Nat claims to have never been vegan in the first place, but all these ex vegans are always looking for someone or something to blame. ruclips.net/video/NN-nDYeafIU/видео.htmlsi=33KqalKvOE64uISZ
I saw this source material and watched a bit of Ed's video. Talk about mental gymnastics! 🤸🏻
And on travelling part - it sounds like just being lazy and I thought that traveling was about discovering new things. Last month we've been to a relatively small town in Germany which we've been told was a more traditional part and it was probably going to be hard to find any vegan options. Imagine my surprise when with the little help of my phone we were able to find a strictly-vegan restaurant a 5 minute walk from where we were staying (and it turned out to be a really lovely place and the owner was such a kind persion!). Then on next day I randomly passed a restuaruant that had numerous vegetearian and vegan options and then a minute later a falafel stand, and I wasn't even trying because we were more than happy with the first vegan place we found. Even the small hotel we were staying out it turned out had two vegan meals you could order for dinner.
I think the ED conversation ties into accessibility. When we think of food accessibility we often think of the price of food and how abundant it is, but we also need to consider a person's unique limitations. It's up to the individual to be honest with themselves about what they can do. Not everyone who experienced an ED can predict what will trigger them though, and not wanting to take that risk is understandable. There are some situations where a person who once had an ED can healthily transition to a vegan lifestyle--I know some folks who did. Whether a person can do it is up to no one besides themselves. With Nat, things feel weird because she demonstrated that she can do well on a plant-based diet but gave into "cravings"...
I would hope Nat considers sourcing animal products from small operations with higher standards for animal welfare as opposed to factory farms/big box stores--that's at least something. Someone can understand that veganism is not for them due to their history and still try to eliminate animal suffering in their life to the extent possible. Nat never seems to have misrepresented herself as a vegan, so this news isn't groundbreaking--but I'm concerned with her lack of empathy for animals in general. I would like to see Nat actively avoid animal products and testing when buying personal care products. It doesn't seem like doing so would be taxing for her, and her admitting that she doesn't look for non-animal tested products so brazenly has influence over her audience.
I agree with you on a lot of this! Although I will say, when someone has a years-long entirely vegan social media presence (i.e. cooking exclusively vegan food), I tend to read into it that they must be vegan or have values that align with my own. I'm learning that's a failing on my part, but it's an assumption that naturally happens, which leads into the jarring/disappointed response I feel when I learn the reality.
And unfortunately, in her caption, she says when she buys non-vegan ingredients in the future she will "ensure they are of good, sustainable quality"--absolutely no mention of ethics. I find it pretty shocking that someone who ate mostly/entirely plants for years would have absolutely no inclination toward animal ethics, but she does seem to be taking a hard-line stance of "my health is more important than anything else," which is completely within her right to do, but again, always hard to see.
I think 🤔 suffer from some sort of disordered eating. I haven’t been formally diagnosed, but a quick google search tells me that I am.
That being said…
I don’t suffer from cravings because I get enough calories from the food that I eat… some days too much food.
They never seem to understand that eating meat and dairy and eggs again just continues the disordered eating. They need to deal with whatever underlying cause that lead to the disordered eating in the first place.
Also, it just seems that her business was going a little flat and she decided to hitch her train to the bandwagon and see whether she can earn more money.
I agree in these cases an underlying cause seems to be the main issue and likely won't be fixed with a superficial change. Again, though, I am not an expert!
Sending you positive thoughts and I hope you are able to get whatever help you need!
There was another one who said his wrist got tired when he exercised lol
lol
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I went vegetarian while having an eating disorder, it helped me get over the sick thought because food became something through which I could express my values and something that was not only about me and having control and how I wanted to look anymore. I became vegan after healing my relationship with food, and have now been vegan for 3 years. Being vegan further helped me to get away from thoughts that were centered on just me and taught me also how to properly take care of my body
Thank you for sharing this 🫶🏻 I have heard the same thing from many vegans with ED pasts. I also wonder how much the suppressed guilt over eating foods we know caused living beings to suffer swirls with general food guilt and creates this toxic emotional landscape. I never had a diagnosed ED but struggled with emotional eating and after going vegan my relationship with food just felt so pure and lovely, whereas before it was always riddled with guilt. That could have been from a few factors (getting older, being in therapy, etc) but it's an interesting correlation I have thought about before.
Posted before I listened to the discussion in the video:
I like her explanation because she is honest and does not give (too many) BS arguments. If all ex-"vegans" would announce their diet change like she did I would have no issues with ex-vegan videos. This does not mean I agree with her decision. Let me make that very clear, but she is allowed to make her own mistakes. I draw the line at (half-)willingly spreading misinformation.
Yes, as I mentioned in the video, I appreciate her honesty. It's the other questionable claims/implications that bothered me!
Any true creative or artist know that limits actually drive creativity and innovation.
good point. so many vegan/plant based cooks out there with lots of creativity.. she just doesn't have it
Absolutely!! Her content is quite repetitive, not because it's vegan, but because she basically bases all her recipes around some sort of "creamy beans" with veggies/seasonings, and some type of thin carb dragging through it 😂 (again, I do think many of her recipes look good but I feel the limitation was self-induced).
I really recommend the book "Veganism and Eating Disorder Recovery" by Jenn Friedman about the approach of vegans get when they're inpatient care or even admitting that they are vegan when they are dealing with an eating disorder to mental health professionals.
Wow, it's great that there's a book completely about this topic!
I kinda disagree with you on this one. Often we complain that the so called ex vegans were never vegan to begin with, since they didn’t do it for animal rights issues, they were simply following a plant based diet. People often throw on our faces that 84% number of people who supposedly quit being vegan, and we have to always explain that not everyone who goes on a plant based diet is vegan, that it isn’t just a diet. That it is more difficult for someone who is actually vegan to quit.
Well here we have someone who is actually honest and says she was never vegan to begin with, that she did it for all these wrong reasons, and that now she wants to try other things. We should be appreciative. We can’t force people to care about animals like we do, unfortunately. Some people just don’t. It’s like that old saying, I can’t convince you that you need to care! Either you have the empathy or you don’t, and plenty of people don’t.
And regarding her disordered eating, a plant based diet is restrictive by definition, and we all know it. You have to be reading labels, looking for the fine print on menus, trying to figure out what they used in the dressing. The world let’s us know this every day how restrictive it is, so I can see how someone recovering from ED might forgo it. Not saying it can’t be done being vegan, but being vegan was not important to her, so at that point it just became an obstacle.
She doesn’t owe us anything because she never claimed to be vegan, and she can have her preferences and opinions regarding the plant substitutes. Sure she’s an influencer and her voice carries, which is why she needs to be honest in her opinion, and she is. The sponsorship is the dishonest part if she continues to think this way, but it wouldn’t be the first time an influencer sells something they don’t believe in.
I appreciate your take! As I mentioned in the video I did appreciate her honesty. In terms of the restriction, in her caption she says she's re-incorporating eggs, fish and some cheese, so she's not exactly "letting go of the restrictive diet" (as she says later in her caption); she's still "restricting" some foods if we're being technical. I just find it interesting what people qualify as "restrictive." As another comment on here pointed out, vegans don't see animal products as food so not eating them doesn't feel restrictive. A vegan diet being seen as, or described as "restrictive," in my mind, is a carnist-centric as well as diet culture-centric interpretation.
@@TotallyForkable that’s fair, it’s interesting that she’s not going beyond fish, she may have some feelings about animal rights that she’s not sharing. Fish and eggs seem to be a loophole to some legit ex vegans (Miley ‘brain fog’ Cyrus).
Fish (particularly salmon) and eggs are almost always the gateway 🫠
Just no conviction to ethics or care for others on display, another case study for the pages of human selfishness in history. Keep ethically evolving good people 💚
My😺😸boys had a chicken treat for lunch.. because I care for them. Veganism is naively simplistic.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme why don't U care for other animals? Carnism is irrational and a burden on the innocent animals you pay to be exploited as well as the environment. Studies show cats can be healthy on a plant based diet if you look into Dr. Andrew Nights lectures.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme why abuse sentient beings and be an asshole to people who care about non-human animals when you don't need to?
@@joshwong800 My physiology responds far better to WF omni. than to WFPB, so I choose to thrive on the former, rather than merely to survive on the latter.
Obviously, Vs cannot countenance the possibility of WFPB being deficient, for any, as that would pull the rug from the ethical argument.
I've just fed roasted chicken to 1 of the😺in my care, which isn't a good fit for your simplistic ideology/religion. I won't be entering the V kindergarten.
@@Unmasking_Viandalisme using personal anecdotes is a very low bar of evidence to ascertain any truth value so you don't know what is best for your physiology, a junkie could easily say the same cos 'feelings though'. The science shows the truth and RCT's trump anecdotal based claims every day. If you want to be an ethical person then you have the resources to do better.
These types of videos are getting tiresome. Can we get a series where long-term vegans from all over are interviewed? Just normal people relaying how they became and stayed vegan, what's easy, what's hard, etc. that would be really interesting.
I definitely understand that perspective. Personally I feel it’s important to make videos like this to help point out public misrepresentations/mischaracterizations about veganism. When influential people make statements implying “there’s no good alternatives, vegan cooking is limiting, etc” to their hundreds of thousands or millions of followers, I feel it can be incredibly damaging to perceptions around veganism. In making these videos my goal is to do my small part to refute these claims and give my perspective. That being said I LOVE the idea of also spotlighting longtime vegans and giving the opposing perspective!
Great idea!
I can see that people with anorexia might think a vegan diet will help them in their drive to get as skinny as possible. It seems to be a theme in many of these "former vegan" videos that those who adopt a "vegan diet" for other than ethical reasons will eventually backslide into meat eating. Can I feel angry with such a person? Not really, as long as they don't try to grift off the change. The ex-vegan featured in this video will at least try to stay as plant-based in her and her significant other's diet as possible. If only all meateaters would reduce their meat consumption as much as she is ( to 15% of her diet), we would be a lot further along in reducing climate change and animal suffering. I originally adopted veganism for health reasons. While my LDL cholesterol has dropped, my high blood pressure has persisted. I think a steady diet of Ed Winters videos has brought me around to a more ethical stance on veganism. I can't picture ever going back to funding the killing of animals. Oh, damn, that reminds me to take my blood pressure medicine.
Thanks for sharing your perspective!
It is likely that the Vegetarian Butcher contacted her because she said there were not good alternatives for fish, basically to "change her opinion" and that of her viewers.
To call that the opposite of authentic might be a bit much. In fact, it coold be considered a clever move by the company.
It's definitely possible, but having a general awareness of how influencer partnerships work, they tend to be planned/scheduled months in advance. And yes, could be a strategic/smart move on VB's part, but on Natalia's part I can't see that decision being motivated by anything other than money. If she had acknowledged something like: "in the past, I haven't been impressed with fish alternatives, but VB hit the nail on the head with this one," I would believe it more.
@@TotallyForkable She should have made that more clear, if she didn't. Big miss on her side.
Vegan causes eating disorder? Here's some interesting facts:
- I've been a vegan for over a year now.
- I've been reguarly going to a gym for two months now because at the start of this year my weight was nearly 100kg (97kg to be exact)
- I only dropped from 97 to 95 because I still eat a looooot (and there have been so many new vegan foods and options at restaurants popping out I feel like there's always something new I'm just dying to try xD)
But yeah, gotta love how people still keep saying how being vegan causes eating disorder and will make you anorexic. Guess it's just another lie people keep telling themselves to justify all the animal cruelty that goes on. Evolution and progress is sadly a slow process especially for some.
Asking restaurants for vegan options rude??? But killing animals isn't "rude"?
Right? Let's take a second to think about who we are "respecting" and disrespecting.
If you’d like to check out Patreon: www.patreon.com/TotallyForkable
All these influencers coming out as no longer vegan are just doing it for attention
I have to wonder!
No good plant based eggs? Some soft tofu and a bit of black salt with a tiny bit of nutritional yeast tastes as good and better than any scrambled eggs I ever tired.
I no longer harm my bodi: just the bodies of others.
Personally I agree! Also, in the US at least, JustEgg has changed many people's lives! However, Nat seems to be a "gooey poached egg" girly so not sure if she can find something comparable, but I'm sure it won't be long until a product is readily available.
And 💯 on your last line!
Going WFPB vegan had freed me from eating disorders and disease. Eating disorders are part of mindset, a distorted one that is caused by a lot of different factors, one being self esteem and our programming etc... I speak about this at length in all my work. Deficiencies, disorders eating can come with any diet. One thing I found helped me is this though: what is important to me: my impact as a soul in this world and other living beings. I feel much more connected and in tune knowing I am part of something that promotes life instead death. I know it is personal, but this is me... ❤
Well done M xx
Thank you so much for sharing this perspective, Chantal. And yes, as you said, it is deeply personal, and everyone is different, but I have heard similar perspective from other vegans with ED histories.
Simply an appreciation comment for your always great content!
Thank you so much!! 🫶🏻
Seems to me she was running out of content. Maybe I am wrong. She admitted to not changing her diet for vegan issues and was obviously never vegan. So she appears to say screw the animals and add the cruelty foods to the recipes to maintain her social media presence.
Yes, I had the same thought. She could have changed her own diet without changing her content. The content change is more of a public/outward change having to do entirely with her business.
A random aside but we also need to be seeing experts on nutrition for our nutrition. Doctors in America are about as qualified as a nutritionist would be in medical practice. When taking nutrition tests later in their tenure they lean around 50% correct.
Absolutely; I know doctors who have shared they had zero nutrition training.
Veganism is all about the animals, it’s not about losing weight or a diet, it’s a lifestyle.
If you are not for the animals then you are not vegan, you are plant based.
The folk who go back to eating g animals were never vegan in the first place, they were WFPB.
I went vegan for the animals, I live a full vegan lifestyle and have suffered disordered eating patterns on and off most of my life and nothing would ever make me go back to eating them.
I appreciate you sharing your perspective! 💖
Never heard of this influencer but the excuses are always the same and quite a cop out imo.
I agree.
Have you heard about Joey Chestnut, the eleventh time Nathan's hot dog eating champion? He's been barred from the contest this year because he's partnered-up with Impossible or Beyond Meat. Nathan's brand claims it because they are their "competitor". I think it's hilarious and Nathan's is just being petty and ridiculous.
It's coming up in the next Good Vegan News!
I would look at the glass half full rather than half empty. Natalia's 85% plant based diet and recipes is better than 0%. Maybe she can influence 100% meat eaters and turn them into 85% plant based.
I see your point; I think I feel the same way with this as with restaurants that were vegan and then added animal foods to the menu. Sure, there are omni restaurants that have vegan options that we support, but something about being vegan (in Natalia's case, all the recipes on her account being vegan) and then changing in the other direction just feels...backwards and hard to accept. But I don't disagree that she's still inspiring people with plant-forward recipes and that is definitely a good thing.
@@TotallyForkableI think you sort of explained in the video why it feels backwards - being vegan/plant-based makes you more likely to really understand the suffering involved, and their reasons for reverting often spread misinformation.
Also, I imagine a video about a meat-eater continuing to eat meat wouldn’t be quite as engaging
Poor thing was feeling limited, it must have been such a hardship for her.
🙂🫠
boooooooooo. i dont like this. think about the animals.
13:44 are you smoking a joint?
😂 they were skinny artisanal breadsticks. I did, however, do a "bit" in the video where I pretended to smoke one like a cigarette, which led me on a mini-rant about how f***ed up it was that there used to be candy cigarettes for kids 🫠
And here I am vegan 8 years with many fat parts that I hate, never exceed 2000 kcal a day, most days get 1700. Hoping the vegan skininess kicks in soon
If you can’t lose weight but are active and not over eating it may be a hormonal issue.
Seeing a vegan diet as a "shortcut to skinniness" is as ridiculous as seeing a SAD diet as a "shortcut to skinniness." Any diet can make you gain or lose weight, largely depending on the types of food you eat and how much of it.
16:20 maybe the Vegetarian Butcher took that as a challenge 😅
It's definitely possible! 😂
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Beyond disappointing. Not creative enough to cook without cruelty? That's a new one. Don't be rude to staff, exploit and slaughter animals. She has no idea how lucky she is to live in a country that has SO MANY vegan alternatives. I hope she seeks help fir her disordered eating. I know first hand that ED clinics often insist vegans adopt animal foods in recovery, but there's been a recent movement of ED specialists to recognize that ethical vegans need to recover without sacrificing ethics. But that's the crux of it, anyway, right? She isn't vegan for the animals. So sad.
I agree; the creativity thing really felt like a copout; why even include that in her reasoning? And it's great to hear that clinics are recognizing the ethics of veganism as separate from the "using it to restrict" aspect.
tik tok and Instagram, that explained it, and that horrible creaky voice.
😂
Fish. Eggs. Cheese. BARF!!
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Great job ❤
🙏🏻💖
You look like an alter ego of Chappell Roan 🥺
I don't even know what to do with this compliment!! 🫶🏻
As a mostly plant based person who eats fish I think the world would be a million times better off if people ate like that rather than SAD. The all or nothing aspect of the argument turns me off from being vegan, even as I edge closer to being fully plant based.
Ofcourse lifestyle of reducing harm will be all or nothing on the topic causing animal cruelty
but if her content causes people to eat less meat surely that balances out her eating some fish -- there's a net decrease in animal cruelty
Pescatarians often kill more animals that omnivores
Because not paying for the intentional abuse of ALL animals (especially as a grocery store shopper) is just wayyy too “all or nothing”! Fish feel pain and experience emotions, too; not just mammals.
@@sethboviper I guarantee people reading her statements and watching her recipes now will infer that they can eat fish, and by extension other animals. That's just human nature.
This entire video is self righteous. There is a reason that 99% of the people who try to eat a vegan diet fail- it’s not sustainable long term. The people who do make it work are outliers.
They fail because it’s about food and not about veganism and ethics. There’s a difference. In the uk being vegan could hardly be easier.
Oh lets make up statistics! 99% of people who try any diet fall. 99% of people who try to change lifelong habits fail. 99% of people who make new years resolutions fail!
You honestly deserve way more subscribers!!!!! 🤍 your content is just chefs kiss
Thank you so much!!