When it comes to the pay difference between helicopter and airplane pilots, it has little to do with the complexity of the aircraft. It has everything to do with the revenue the aircraft creates. An airline can generate a half million dollars or more in revenue per flight when it carries passengers and freight. There is more money to pay the crew. A helicopter can't even come close to that, therefore, how can an operator pay their pilots the same as the airlines? It just isn't possible.
International Cargo Pilots who are hungry for the schedule make ABSURD money! Highest I’ve ever heard in any commercial aviation job by far! They work like 15 days out of the month and can pull in $600-$700k or more. I too am pursuing helicopter though specifically EMS because my Dad was a flight doctor for many years and one of my favorite memories growing up was career day in third grade, where your parents basically come and talk about their profession and when it was my turn, I didn’t know where my parents were but then the teachers told everybody to go outside to the soccer fields and within a few minutes, you hear the bass filled whirl coming from above the tree line off in the distance getting louder and louder until finally you see the red and white Augusta A109 flying in as the ooo’s and aaaahh’s intensify. It landed smack dab in the middle of our soccer field and as the rotors calmed down slightly, My dad opens the side door and steps out in his red medflight jumpsuit with the white lab coat over top and I swear that was about the coolest thing I kid could ask for. Truly a super hero moment. Kids got to climb in the cockpit and put on the helmet and probably give Sparky the pilot a heart attack lol but I hope to serve a community that same way, whether it’s inspiring kids like I was or rescuing people from a life threatening situation. I’ll make it happen no matter what! But if you were to add a #8 it should be more clear paths to successful careers because mapping that out on my own was not fun, I spent 3 months in the wrong aviation course when I started 😂lol
Holy cow! That is one of the greatest stories I have ever heard! What an incredible way to motivate your kid and other kids at a school about having a great career in aviation or medicine! You know for whatever reason drives you into aviation, it will end up being the most rewarding way to spend a lifetime! Stay in touch and I wish you all the luck on your journey!!!
@@PilotDevin Appreciate the reply! didnt see the notification right away but glad I saw this because I did want to ask your opinion on something ive been wrestling with.. So i'm new to building hours, I have 7 hours in an R22, But for I think $80 more per hour I can fly in the R44 which as you know is turbine. Since ultimately thats the type of helicopter all med flight or search rescue helicopters use, is it worth that investment now to just suck it up and build all my hours in turbine? There's one other limitation im facing at thats my weight haha i'm 6'3 and depending on my diet and gym time, I can walk around at 260 pound or 220 and even if i really get back in shape like a couple years ago be at 190-200. they have the weight limit on the R22 at 235 or 240 pounds. I like the motivation to stay under lol but I also don't want to waste time.
@@Hug_lifeSo what did you wind up doing? I'm 6'2", and around 250 today with zero hours. I'm debating on whether I start in the r22 which I heard is better/harder for learning to hover... Or just spend the money for hours in an r44.
So many good points in this video, but I wanted to comment on the evolution of your videos! The editing and flow is so good 👌 The part where you compare the salaries and say -- "oh god" -- the jump cut is so funny 🤣🤣.
My question to you young sir is how old did you get the cpl and how did you find your first job. Everyone seems to be asking for 1500 and 2000 hours, 100 hours night, etc. How did you start?
I think you missed the biggest point to address that an Airliner pilot (especially long haul where the big money is) can be away from home for days while most Helicopter Jobs are shift work in your local city where you get to go home at the end of the shift. Example, Melbourne to Dubai is nearly a 15hr flight. You will be staying at a hotel when you get to Dubai and the next morning you may be flying Dubai to Elsewhere before flying back to Melbourne.
FANTASTIC point!!! I should have mentioned this. Thank you for helping me out and leaving that comment. That is one of the biggest things and one of the major factors that made me want to go helicopters over aiprlanes!
A lot of big money helicopter jobs (from what I've been told) are Utility and AG where you can be away from home on a contract (living in a tent and/or trailer) for like six months.
Forcing a stall in a fixed wing is super creepy. That feeling that you get instantaneously that the bird is no longer flying, but rather falling. But in an airplane that feeling goes away very fast. Switch over the rotor and forcing vortex ring state is a whole new level of creepy. I recall the feeling of "oh we're screwed now it is all over" as the recovery takes so much longer than in a plane.
Not really. A stall in fw would be more like loosing your main rotor in a helicopter, although there’s no recovery from that. VRS would be more like if you stalled a fw with no forward speed and your engines were pointed downwards actually powering you towards the ground! VRS is actually quite difficult to get into though and before you do, there is the state of “incipient vortex ring” which is quite easy to spot and escape from. “Settling with power” is easier to get into and more dangerous because it’s commonly encountered close to the ground, when there’s little altitude to escape. Contrary to the claim, VRS is quite rare and accounts for extremely few helicopter deaths!
Agree with every single point you made. I had to laugh at point No.2 because I agree there is ZERO chance a non-helicopter pilot can land one unless they are gifted with the ability to learn from sensory feedback in seconds. I literally got mad at my instructor when I was first learning and he was telling me "you got this" as he was having me attempt to land for the first several times and the helicopter was literally looking like a hollywood movie crash scene! ha ahh ah a.. I"m like, we're going to crash, take the controls!" .. ha ah ha It takes a while to learn to control the cyclic with SUBTLTY! (I actually had a pilot in the hangar - in for a yearly check ride - give me the best secret I ever heard---> he said, have you ever had sex so many times in one night your Pe--is hurt? I laughed and said yes... he said, " touch the cyclic like your pe---is when it is sore like that)... I never had a problem again.
@@Discoveringme123 - I should add that my instructor was a decorated Vietnam helicopter pilot and was also Medivac Pilot of the year one year. He knew he could land it regardless of my situation... the owner of our school, Chin Tu, was also decorated and was a test pilot for Hughes. In his tail rotor failure training, he could have you flip a quarter out the window and he could put the pivoting skid right on it! These guys are the 0.5%, they're that good.
Loved your phrase: "that really grinds my gears"! But on a serious note, I started in fixed wing and am transitioning to rotary. Along the way, I have found it necessary to unlearn some of the techniques for flying a fixed wing aircraft. Examples: to turn a fixed wing aircraft you use a combination of rudder (i.e. the pedals) as well as the ailerons. But turning in a helicopter just requires the cyclic and the collective. The pedals are there simply for correcting your trim in the turn but they are not the primary controls for a turn. To descend in a fixed wing aircraft, you can simply push the nose down. But try that aggressively in a teetering 2 rotor blade helicopter like the R44 and it'll be "Goodnight, Vienna" for you and your passengers. And it's impossible to relax when flying a helicopter unlike a fixed wing, where you can simply adjust the trim and throttle at cruising altitude then sit back and enjoy the scenery.
Correct i also agree a passenger could NEVER land a helicopter with no experience , and unless have a real good student who had great ground skills and knowledge i think 20 hrs easy , about helicopters in emergency are safer is true ,because if u loose ur engine u can auto and get down safely unlike a plane which requires open area and some length to get down safely. As to pay,it is unfair but it all comes down to money and what is coming in, they pay a helicopter pilot who can carry 2-4 passengers and compare income to pilot who carries up to hundreds of passengers unfortunately comes down to economics. With option for controlled and non controlled , controlled 1 million percent, safety safety safety, plus too many pilots with bad radio skills is dangerous
Tons of cargo and paying heads in seats equals more money for the company equals higher pay. The coolness factor of saying you are a helicopter pilot makes up the differance. When flying non-towered airports is where ads-b in/out comes in handy. If someone is flying without radios and reporting positions…that’s dangerous and I always get tail numbers and have a conversation with someone who should fix it.
As a FW pilot who's had helicopter lessons, I would say that it could be possible for a fixed wing pilot to be talked into a run-on landing without any attempts to hover, if forced to take over and was able to get in communication with someone. Beyond that. yeah, forget it. Airline pilots are paid so much because for the early union contracts negotiated in the late 40s and early 50s , the airlines agreed to pay scales based on all up weight, back when a "heavy" was under 150,000 lbs. It soon got away from them.
thanks, we went for a helicopter tour ride in Branson, Mo, the pilot said he had 375 hours in the Robinson R44 that we were flying in. How safe was that?
@larrybaker How much total time did he have? IMO you were perfectly safe. But was there anything during the flight that made you and your team feel uncomfortable or unsafe?
@@airmanfirstclass3535 it was a very safe flight, ever since coming home from Nam I have hated and avoided flying, but had to do a helicopter (i am 75). thanks for replying
Lots of good points. I can say with 100% honestly that I was able to pick up and set down safely during my 4th hour of training. Granted I already had my fixed wing CPL, but that didn’t feel like it helped much at the very beginning. In reasonable weather conditions and nothing else failing on the aircraft, I could have safely landed an R22 at 4hrs. It wouldn’t be a soft set down, but the aircraft wouldn’t be damaged. I will agree that in a training environment, helicopters have more options at slower speeds. But, to say a helicopter can’t stall, well we both know that’s not true. Settling with power is basically the equivalent of an accelerated stall for fixed wing. Plus there’s retreating blade stalls and the like. It just happens differently and is more complicated with extra moving surfaces and more physics happening simultaneously. I’m kinda torn on which platform is safer to instruct on since I’m not a CFI yet for either. That being said, an airplane is still so much more stable. There so many things that can go wrong in a helicopter, and many times so close to the ground. I guess I’ll see how I feel after teaching both eventually. And as much as I understand why airline pilots make more, it doesn’t mean I like it. I am giving up a lot by switching to rotary. I sure hope my experiences pay off with aerial cinematography!
Most airline pilots I know (And I know many...) make between 100-150 K a year here in Europe flying A 320s or B 737s for cheap airlines like Ryanair and Eurowings. My rotor-dudes usually make the same and fly in either sling load/ cargo operations, EMS, fire fighting or Air Taxi Ops. But I agree: Getting into those positions takes 2000 hrs minimum and those are truly hard earned. We always said back in the days as a helicopter CFI that we work for a chocolate bar and a coffee.
I have flown both fixed and rotor. I agree one million percent that no one could land a helicopter their first try. I definitely could have landed fixed wing single handed if had to.
I have about 410 hours fw and did a discovery flight in a R22 a few weeks ago, was curious how my skills carried over and see how hard hovering is. I watched several videos ahead of my flight and I was still swinging back and forth trying to hover; I completely agree, there is no way someone can land a chopper without hours of training unlike an airplane.
Maybe we can make a bet that I can land the helicopter with no experience what so ever. Just give me an hour in the air and I'll land it. It'll be a great video for your channel
Idk i feel like the looming sfar 73 issues make instructing in a helo way sketchier. I'm not familiar with airplanes but i imagine there isn't an incorrect control input that will chop your tail off. Training at 6k feet in denver also puts us closer to the edge of the machines capabilities and therefore harder to make quick corrective actions for late stage issues. I don't particularly want to teach but it's the path i'm on for now... thanks for the vid
Recently I discovered a couple of scientific articles about effects of significant X-ray exposure to airline crews flying at heights of 30k feet's. 8 hr flight can can equalize of 1 year radiation dosage of average Joe on the Earth. Those airline folks getting 200k+ a year are simply selling their health. Probability of cancers and genetic illnesses is why much higher. I am about to start the professional (H) training in 4 months. So far high airliners salaries were something what gave a bit of confusion to my decision of becoming helicopter pilot. After reading about radiation and amount of microwaves I totally have no doubts.
That’s really interesting. You would think that some kind of film would be put on the windows etc to shield them. In all fairness, chopper pilots get a ton of sun exposure as well, especially utility pilots. I’m sure most don’t put sunscreen on every time. So there are different occupational hazards with each.
Not sure about the long-term effects of high altitude radiation, but not one airline pilot I've ever known has lost a medical due to this. Nor has this been a topic of any concern among any airplane pilot I have ever flown with or known.
That is an interesting concept you have. Not sure where you have this info but I have never had this conversation with one single pilot, ME or had it brought up in any seminar in 25 as a pilot. Pilots have not been losing medicals due to flying airliners. Really interested to find out where your fears of this come from.
Rather than reading a couple of cherry picked scientific studies, you should look at meta-studies or a broader range of individual scientific studies. On average, airline crew receive about double the amount of radiation as those working on the ground (about 6mSv vs 3mSv per year) and airline crew do tend to have a slightly increased incidence of some cancer types but NO CAUSAL LINK has yet been found between the two! The higher incidence maybe due to other lifestyle factors, sunbathing for example and there’s some evidence that the broken circadian rhythms of long haul flight crews could be the cause.
I understand about the not being able to land apart. When I had less than 10 hours it made me extremely uncomfortable knowing that I couldn't get the helicopter safely on the ground by myself. If I had to my plan was to just fly to the runway at about 60 knots and try and do a run on landing and hope for the best.
What is your personal opinion on the SUU Aviation program? What do you think about the pricing the skills you learn? Is it a good way to launch your career or is there other ways you recommend?
@@garrettmiller7077 Hey, Garett. What was your experience like at SUU and the rotor program. I’m just getting out the military and thinking of going there full time
@@ethanrangel6522 I had a great experience at SUU. I can't speak for how it is now ,however, I'm sure the program is still great. Just like any school they have their issues. If you plan your degree right with VA benefits you can complete almost every Rotor Lab they have. (which will help your total time for when you are looking for a job). I completed All the labs except for the stand alone NVG lab. It took me 7 semesters to complete the B.S. Degree and all the labs. I'm not the smartest person, so if I can do it anyone can really. DO NOT enter the program thinking your going to just be having fun (which you do) there will be ALOT of work. For every hour of flight time expect around 3 hours of studying.
@@garrettmiller7077 hello Garrett, I am an active dusty member looking to complete my service and attend the SUU program. I know time has gone by for you since you’ve attended but may I ask questions to get a better understanding and for my own research purposes? Also maybe on a different platform (LinkedIn or Zoom/Messenger)? Hope to hear from you soon!
I think they get paid more becsuse there is more capita, advertising and stocks in airlines/airplanes vs passenger carry via helicopters. Also commercial airlines certification are more geared for their revenue to get paid to carry passengers.
Spoken like a true millennial, why do fixed wing ATP pilots get paid more? It's for a number of reasons. 1. Liability, we get the opportunity to kill many more in one go, it's why the standards of training and experience are high. 2. Revenue generation, a 777 generates a lot more money than an EMS helicopter ever will. Flying helicopters is inherently riskier, but that doesn't equate to higher pay.
I agree with alot of the stuff you said I'm helicopter and airplane pilot aswell I've done all the dangerous maneuvers from full down and throttle chop autorotations to vortex ring state at higher altitudes. Both are very dangerous but that is the nature of a helicopter it is a very safe aircraft that isnt forgiving it says that in the saftey notices too for the R-22. It is also not just that airplane pilots get paid more the flight training for a helicopter pilot is like 80g-100gs which is like more than double compared to an airplane pilots flight training just to get your cfi only.
We teach "recognition and recovery" my bro. Absolutely no need for 4000 FPM. Keep in mind that every rotor system will critically stall at 'x' rate of decent
Maybe long haul airline captains get paid more because of the lay overs and body clock getting messed up all the time which isn’t healthy. I imagine it could get quite boring sat in auto pilot for hours over an ocean and maybe people wouldn’t do it if they didn’t get paid so much.
Want excitement go work for a medivac company, plenty of excitement and challenges, and saving lives! I worked for Air Evac Life team. Anvis 9 NVG’s makes night flying like day Time except green, I liked night flying as well as day. I was paid 70k for half a years flying and that was back in 2O14-16. Airline flying is safer, cargo even safer.
Your numbers are wrong …. Many helicopter pilots make more than airline pilots….do your research!!! And a helicopter takes far more skill and is far less forgiving to fly than an airplane !!! Do your research !
🙂 Flew helicopters for 20 years, retired flying in 2010, very few jobs for hell pilots unless you have thousands upon thousands of dollars to spend on building hours, that comes out of your pocket. My airline pilot’s son started his fixed training a few years back and he’s already flying as a copilot for a regional airline, do the math
Co-Pilot for Regional airline is a joke. A Helicopter Pilot DGAF about anything but being a helicopter pilot. Deals with bureaucratic lame BS, Spineless fake attitudes, want a bee's, Back stabbing low time & experience idiots, cheep Charlie helicopter owners etc. on a daily basis. They're tough Human Beings willing to pay the price, never wimping out to be unique selfless Quality serving, God Fairing individuals. MC Hammer has a song about the few, that have earned & been blessed with the career no matter how deep the hell gets. "YOU CANT TOUCH THIS" I'd like to take this opportunity to say "the breed is near extinction" May God have Mercy on us😇
The salary issue comes up quite a bit from time to time if you spend enough time in or around aviation. But it's actually a simple and logical explanation as to why fixed wing pilots earn more than rotary wing pilots, and it's quite simply the bums on seats.... a newer commercial fixed wing pilot will earn similar money to the chopper pilot, but add another 350 paying customers and of course the value of that pilot goes up. It's nothing to do with skill or volumes of training, just the simple fact that any flight is paid for by someone, or in the airline pilots case, a lot of someone's. Enjoyed your video too btw and I agree with you that the benefits of training manoeuvres on the edge of controlled flight are outweighed by the risks. The old adage right, " There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots.... but there are no old and bold pilots".
A couple points I have. Im not trying to change your mind, just my opinion an experience. If you're scared of teaching VRS and settling with power you must be low. Get 2,000 ft AGL and do it there. You have plenty of altitude to recover It can be uncomfortable but the helicopter isnt going to come apart. And if you think the top tier of helicopters is HAA then thats sad. That is the most boring job, tons of drama depending on the crew and typically the medcrew drives the bus. HAA is not for me, if that was my last option to flying I'd hang it up. Fires and Utility are where its at for me. I get to fly in some of the coolest terrain, everyday is challenging, I work 12 on 12 off and the money is good. Of course I wish it was better. I started flying airplanes, they can be fun but I'm a true rotorhead.
the commercial airlines generate more money from passengers so they can afford to pay their pilots more, helicopters only fly like 4-6 people, compared to a couple hundred in an airplane
Eh, work schedule is huge, though. Helicopters are typically 7/7or 14/14 day schedules. Airlines are choppy schedules and you have to work for years to get a good one. I make about $140k and have every other two weeks off. That’s great for me. Your life doesn’t really improve much in a way that will make you happier after the first $100k unless you are happy constantly comparing yourself to others.
I think jobs are hard to get, you need at least 2,000 hours before anyone will talk to you, then your sweeping floors for a year before they let you near the machine, so is it worth spending a small fortune to maybe get a job, there is not that great pilot shortage like they say there is.You might spend over $120,000 and hope you get a job.
Regarding whom might land a helicopter...I went through Army WOFT in the 70's and most of my class soloed at about 12 hrs having never flown anything prior. The student who was second to last to solo had an MEL Commercial ticket but couldn't hover well nor slow down his approaches (he ultimately resigned). Years later I took FW lessons under the GI Bill and my only difficultly was (initially) getting too high and slow on approach! I've thought for years that civilian training is constrained; the 40-hr minimum for a PPL is too high - should be based solely on ability.
Saying you can’t stall at helicopter is being a bit disingenuous Retreat Blade Stall is a high concern in rotor wing. VRS and settling with power would be the same as a Power-On Stall, you are no longer creating lift. Both aircraft at low altitude is a concern when you are low, slow and uncoordinated. I start my flying adventure in the R44.. Mid-training one of our instructors was killed during practices hovering with a student. Each has there Pros and Cons. But both are definitely Awesome to flight. So far as wages.. There are more Union Commercial/ATP Pilot than Helicopter.
Isn’t it 12x more likely to have a crash in a helicopter while training? If I weigh 206 lbs. what type of helicopter should I train in? where is a good place to train in the USA in the winter? I don’t want to do it for work but am considering it for kicks and giggles and I have a nice property on the water to land. Thank you.
You need to continue with airplanes and go with the airlines bro that’s where the money and the protection is. Believe me I did EMS for 19 years (but had 2 other passive sources of income that compensated for the LOW pay versus an airline pilot these days) Helicopter especially EMS is surly more dangerous, obviously, but it doesn’t matter you dint get paid for sht versus airline. Go with helicopter EMS and it will take you 10-12 years to make $100,000 base. Airline you will be making it in 2. Also your top out pay with helicopters is an absolute joke.
I think experienced airplane pilots, especially taildragger pilots, can land a helicopter by treating it like an airplane and lending on the skids at slow speed. Would love to take on that challenge in a bet. Your financial analysis of airplane pilots is skewed because you used examples of senior pay rates at best majors. And are you one of the the new pilots who has no idea how bad the industry has been historically? But helicopter pilots are by definition supremem stick and rudder skilled. Do oil rig man, move to Louisiana.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
When it comes to the pay difference between helicopter and airplane pilots, it has little to do with the complexity of the aircraft. It has everything to do with the revenue the aircraft creates. An airline can generate a half million dollars or more in revenue per flight when it carries passengers and freight. There is more money to pay the crew. A helicopter can't even come close to that, therefore, how can an operator pay their pilots the same as the airlines? It just isn't possible.
If you think airplane instruction is sketchy because of a lack of energy options you'd hate teaching people to fly gliders.
Give the numbers to fly an airplane to a helicopter guy…he’s can fly it….give the numbers to fly the helicopter to an airplane guy….crash!
Pretty much.
Airplanes fly pilots... pilots fly helicopters.
International Cargo Pilots who are hungry for the schedule make ABSURD money! Highest I’ve ever heard in any commercial aviation job by far! They work like 15 days out of the month and can pull in $600-$700k or more. I too am pursuing helicopter though specifically EMS because my Dad was a flight doctor for many years and one of my favorite memories growing up was career day in third grade, where your parents basically come and talk about their profession and when it was my turn, I didn’t know where my parents were but then the teachers told everybody to go outside to the soccer fields and within a few minutes, you hear the bass filled whirl coming from above the tree line off in the distance getting louder and louder until finally you see the red and white Augusta A109 flying in as the ooo’s and aaaahh’s intensify. It landed smack dab in the middle of our soccer field and as the rotors calmed down slightly, My dad opens the side door and steps out in his red medflight jumpsuit with the white lab coat over top and I swear that was about the coolest thing I kid could ask for. Truly a super hero moment. Kids got to climb in the cockpit and put on the helmet and probably give Sparky the pilot a heart attack lol but I hope to serve a community that same way, whether it’s inspiring kids like I was or rescuing people from a life threatening situation. I’ll make it happen no matter what! But if you were to add a #8 it should be more clear paths to successful careers because mapping that out on my own was not fun, I spent 3 months in the wrong aviation course when I started 😂lol
Holy cow! That is one of the greatest stories I have ever heard! What an incredible way to motivate your kid and other kids at a school about having a great career in aviation or medicine! You know for whatever reason drives you into aviation, it will end up being the most rewarding way to spend a lifetime! Stay in touch and I wish you all the luck on your journey!!!
@@PilotDevin Appreciate the reply! didnt see the notification right away but glad I saw this because I did want to ask your opinion on something ive been wrestling with.. So i'm new to building hours, I have 7 hours in an R22, But for I think $80 more per hour I can fly in the R44 which as you know is turbine. Since ultimately thats the type of helicopter all med flight or search rescue helicopters use, is it worth that investment now to just suck it up and build all my hours in turbine? There's one other limitation im facing at thats my weight haha i'm 6'3 and depending on my diet and gym time, I can walk around at 260 pound or 220 and even if i really get back in shape like a couple years ago be at 190-200. they have the weight limit on the R22 at 235 or 240 pounds. I like the motivation to stay under lol but I also don't want to waste time.
@@Hug_lifeThe R66 is the Turbine, correct? Not the R44.
@@sanfranciscobay you are correct! I get them mixed up all the time.
@@Hug_lifeSo what did you wind up doing? I'm 6'2", and around 250 today with zero hours.
I'm debating on whether I start in the r22 which I heard is better/harder for learning to hover... Or just spend the money for hours in an r44.
So many good points in this video, but I wanted to comment on the evolution of your videos! The editing and flow is so good 👌
The part where you compare the salaries and say -- "oh god" -- the jump cut is so funny 🤣🤣.
Thank you so much!! I really appreciate you Rebecca!!
My question to you young sir is how old did you get the cpl and how did you find your first job. Everyone seems to be asking for 1500 and 2000 hours, 100 hours night, etc. How did you start?
I understand your thoughts my friend,......but I'll NEVER stop keeping in my interest in helicopters!!!
Agree!
I think you missed the biggest point to address that an Airliner pilot (especially long haul where the big money is) can be away from home for days while most Helicopter Jobs are shift work in your local city where you get to go home at the end of the shift. Example, Melbourne to Dubai is nearly a 15hr flight. You will be staying at a hotel when you get to Dubai and the next morning you may be flying Dubai to Elsewhere before flying back to Melbourne.
FANTASTIC point!!! I should have mentioned this. Thank you for helping me out and leaving that comment. That is one of the biggest things and one of the major factors that made me want to go helicopters over aiprlanes!
A lot of big money helicopter jobs (from what I've been told) are Utility and AG where you can be away from home on a contract (living in a tent and/or trailer) for like six months.
Forcing a stall in a fixed wing is super creepy. That feeling that you get instantaneously that the bird is no longer flying, but rather falling. But in an airplane that feeling goes away very fast. Switch over the rotor and forcing vortex ring state is a whole new level of creepy. I recall the feeling of "oh we're screwed now it is all over" as the recovery takes so much longer than in a plane.
Naah it's all about objective energy management and situational awareness.
So VRS for a helicopter is the equivalent to a stall for a fixed wing aircraft?
Essentially
Not really. A stall in fw would be more like loosing your main rotor in a helicopter, although there’s no recovery from that. VRS would be more like if you stalled a fw with no forward speed and your engines were pointed downwards actually powering you towards the ground! VRS is actually quite difficult to get into though and before you do, there is the state of “incipient vortex ring” which is quite easy to spot and escape from. “Settling with power” is easier to get into and more dangerous because it’s commonly encountered close to the ground, when there’s little altitude to escape. Contrary to the claim, VRS is quite rare and accounts for extremely few helicopter deaths!
Thanks for sharing. I have been thinking about going for rotary, with no aviation experience.
Agree with every single point you made. I had to laugh at point No.2 because I agree there is ZERO chance a non-helicopter pilot can land one unless they are gifted with the ability to learn from sensory feedback in seconds. I literally got mad at my instructor when I was first learning and he was telling me "you got this" as he was having me attempt to land for the first several times and the helicopter was literally looking like a hollywood movie crash scene! ha ahh ah a.. I"m like, we're going to crash, take the controls!" .. ha ah ha It takes a while to learn to control the cyclic with SUBTLTY! (I actually had a pilot in the hangar - in for a yearly check ride - give me the best secret I ever heard---> he said, have you ever had sex so many times in one night your Pe--is hurt? I laughed and said yes... he said, " touch the cyclic like your pe---is when it is sore like that)... I never had a problem again.
HAHAHA OMG
WTF!🤨
Honey!
What are you doing?
It's not what it looks like. I'm not masturbating.
I'm learning to land my Pud... 😳
…and for female pilots, how does one get them to understand this analogy?? 😊
@@Discoveringme123 - I should add that my instructor was a decorated Vietnam helicopter pilot and was also Medivac Pilot of the year one year. He knew he could land it regardless of my situation... the owner of our school, Chin Tu, was also decorated and was a test pilot for Hughes. In his tail rotor failure training, he could have you flip a quarter out the window and he could put the pivoting skid right on it! These guys are the 0.5%, they're that good.
Loved your phrase: "that really grinds my gears"! But on a serious note, I started in fixed wing and am transitioning to rotary. Along the way, I have found it necessary to unlearn some of the techniques for flying a fixed wing aircraft. Examples: to turn a fixed wing aircraft you use a combination of rudder (i.e. the pedals) as well as the ailerons. But turning in a helicopter just requires the cyclic and the collective. The pedals are there simply for correcting your trim in the turn but they are not the primary controls for a turn. To descend in a fixed wing aircraft, you can simply push the nose down. But try that aggressively in a teetering 2 rotor blade helicopter like the R44 and it'll be "Goodnight, Vienna" for you and your passengers. And it's impossible to relax when flying a helicopter unlike a fixed wing, where you can simply adjust the trim and throttle at cruising altitude then sit back and enjoy the scenery.
Correct i also agree a passenger could NEVER land a helicopter with no experience , and unless have a real good student who had great ground skills and knowledge i think 20 hrs easy , about helicopters in emergency are safer is true ,because if u loose ur engine u can auto and get down safely unlike a plane which requires open area and some length to get down safely. As to pay,it is unfair but it all comes down to money and what is coming in, they pay a helicopter pilot who can carry 2-4 passengers and compare income to pilot who carries up to hundreds of passengers unfortunately comes down to economics. With option for controlled and non controlled , controlled 1 million percent, safety safety safety, plus too many pilots with bad radio skills is dangerous
Tons of cargo and paying heads in seats equals more money for the company equals higher pay.
The coolness factor of saying you are a helicopter pilot makes up the differance.
When flying non-towered airports is where ads-b in/out comes in handy. If someone is flying without radios and reporting positions…that’s dangerous and I always get tail numbers and have a conversation with someone who should fix it.
As a FW pilot who's had helicopter lessons, I would say that it could be possible for a fixed wing pilot to be talked into a run-on landing without any attempts to hover, if forced to take over and was able to get in communication with someone. Beyond that. yeah, forget it. Airline pilots are paid so much because for the early union contracts negotiated in the late 40s and early 50s , the airlines agreed to pay scales based on all up weight, back when a "heavy" was under 150,000 lbs. It soon got away from them.
thanks, we went for a helicopter tour ride in Branson, Mo, the pilot said he had 375 hours in the Robinson R44 that we were flying in. How safe was that?
@larrybaker How much total time did he have? IMO you were perfectly safe. But was there anything during the flight that made you and your team feel uncomfortable or unsafe?
@@airmanfirstclass3535 it was a very safe flight, ever since coming home from Nam I have hated and avoided flying, but had to do a helicopter (i am 75). thanks for replying
Lots of good points. I can say with 100% honestly that I was able to pick up and set down safely during my 4th hour of training. Granted I already had my fixed wing CPL, but that didn’t feel like it helped much at the very beginning. In reasonable weather conditions and nothing else failing on the aircraft, I could have safely landed an R22 at 4hrs. It wouldn’t be a soft set down, but the aircraft wouldn’t be damaged.
I will agree that in a training environment, helicopters have more options at slower speeds. But, to say a helicopter can’t stall, well we both know that’s not true. Settling with power is basically the equivalent of an accelerated stall for fixed wing. Plus there’s retreating blade stalls and the like. It just happens differently and is more complicated with extra moving surfaces and more physics happening simultaneously.
I’m kinda torn on which platform is safer to instruct on since I’m not a CFI yet for either. That being said, an airplane is still so much more stable. There so many things that can go wrong in a helicopter, and many times so close to the ground. I guess I’ll see how I feel after teaching both eventually.
And as much as I understand why airline pilots make more, it doesn’t mean I like it. I am giving up a lot by switching to rotary. I sure hope my experiences pay off with aerial cinematography!
Most airline pilots I know (And I know many...) make between 100-150 K a year here in Europe flying A 320s or B 737s for cheap airlines like Ryanair and Eurowings. My rotor-dudes usually make the same and fly in either sling load/ cargo operations, EMS, fire fighting or Air Taxi Ops. But I agree: Getting into those positions takes 2000 hrs minimum and those are truly hard earned. We always said back in the days as a helicopter CFI that we work for a chocolate bar and a coffee.
I have flown both fixed and rotor. I agree one million percent that no one could land a helicopter their first try. I definitely could have landed fixed wing single handed if had to.
I have about 410 hours fw and did a discovery flight in a R22 a few weeks ago, was curious how my skills carried over and see how hard hovering is. I watched several videos ahead of my flight and I was still swinging back and forth trying to hover; I completely agree, there is no way someone can land a chopper without hours of training unlike an airplane.
There are some negative transfers of instinctual habits from airplanes to helicopters
Super curious man, wanted to get into helicopters. I’ve Been hearing there is no jobs in helicopters and to get into fixed wing? Is this true?
Totally Inaccurate, There are tons of jobs! If you want to fly helicopters you should do it!
Maybe we can make a bet that I can land the helicopter with no experience what so ever. Just give me an hour in the air and I'll land it. It'll be a great video for your channel
Yeah, flying at night over a city is awesome, but over the middle of butt-crack nowhere, you'd be better off just filing IFR.
Agree!
Can a Ah-1z viper do the cobra maneuver?
Idk i feel like the looming sfar 73 issues make instructing in a helo way sketchier. I'm not familiar with airplanes but i imagine there isn't an incorrect control input that will chop your tail off. Training at 6k feet in denver also puts us closer to the edge of the machines capabilities and therefore harder to make quick corrective actions for late stage issues. I don't particularly want to teach but it's the path i'm on for now... thanks for the vid
Haha, yessir! Farming butter in a small airplane never gets old!
Have you heard about the zephyr helicopter? I believe it has a parachute or will soon like a cirrus.
I have a video about that on my channel!
An experienced instructor is required for VRS. Claude Vuichard is a great resource on this! #SkyBaum
Recently I discovered a couple of scientific articles about effects of significant X-ray exposure to airline crews flying at heights of 30k feet's. 8 hr flight can can equalize of 1 year radiation dosage of average Joe on the Earth. Those airline folks getting 200k+ a year are simply selling their health. Probability of cancers and genetic illnesses is why much higher. I am about to start the professional (H) training in 4 months. So far high airliners salaries were something what gave a bit of confusion to my decision of becoming helicopter pilot. After reading about radiation and amount of microwaves I totally have no doubts.
Phenomenal point. Seriously
That’s really interesting. You would think that some kind of film would be put on the windows etc to shield them.
In all fairness, chopper pilots get a ton of sun exposure as well, especially utility pilots. I’m sure most don’t put sunscreen on every time. So there are different occupational hazards with each.
Not sure about the long-term effects of high altitude radiation, but not one airline pilot I've ever known has lost a medical due to this. Nor has this been a topic of any concern among any airplane pilot I have ever flown with or known.
That is an interesting concept you have. Not sure where you have this info but I have never had this conversation with one single pilot, ME or had it brought up in any seminar in 25 as a pilot. Pilots have not been losing medicals due to flying airliners. Really interested to find out where your fears of this come from.
Rather than reading a couple of cherry picked scientific studies, you should look at meta-studies or a broader range of individual scientific studies. On average, airline crew receive about double the amount of radiation as those working on the ground (about 6mSv vs 3mSv per year) and airline crew do tend to have a slightly increased incidence of some cancer types but NO CAUSAL LINK has yet been found between the two! The higher incidence maybe due to other lifestyle factors, sunbathing for example and there’s some evidence that the broken circadian rhythms of long haul flight crews could be the cause.
I understand about the not being able to land apart. When I had less than 10 hours it made me extremely uncomfortable knowing that I couldn't get the helicopter safely on the ground by myself. If I had to my plan was to just fly to the runway at about 60 knots and try and do a run on landing and hope for the best.
What is your personal opinion on the SUU Aviation program? What do you think about the pricing the skills you learn? Is it a good way to launch your career or is there other ways you recommend?
I recomend it! I have not gone through the program but from what I can see they produce very good pilots and the training is very good!
I am an SUU graduate (rotor).I would be more than happy to talk to you about the program at SUU.
@@garrettmiller7077 Hey, Garett. What was your experience like at SUU and the rotor program. I’m just getting out the military and thinking of going there full time
@@ethanrangel6522 I had a great experience at SUU. I can't speak for how it is now ,however, I'm sure the program is still great. Just like any school they have their issues. If you plan your degree right with VA benefits you can complete almost every Rotor Lab they have. (which will help your total time for when you are looking for a job). I completed All the labs except for the stand alone NVG lab. It took me 7 semesters to complete the B.S. Degree and all the labs. I'm not the smartest person, so if I can do it anyone can really. DO NOT enter the program thinking your going to just be having fun (which you do) there will be ALOT of work. For every hour of flight time expect around 3 hours of studying.
@@garrettmiller7077 hello Garrett, I am an active dusty member looking to complete my service and attend the SUU program. I know time has gone by for you since you’ve attended but may I ask questions to get a better understanding and for my own research purposes? Also maybe on a different platform (LinkedIn or Zoom/Messenger)?
Hope to hear from you soon!
I think they get paid more becsuse there is more capita, advertising and stocks in airlines/airplanes vs passenger carry via helicopters. Also commercial airlines certification are more geared for their revenue to get paid to carry passengers.
Spoken like a true millennial, why do fixed wing ATP pilots get paid more?
It's for a number of reasons.
1. Liability, we get the opportunity to kill many more in one go, it's why the standards of training and experience are high.
2. Revenue generation, a 777 generates a lot more money than an EMS helicopter ever will.
Flying helicopters is inherently riskier, but that doesn't equate to higher pay.
Good point!
I agree with alot of the stuff you said I'm helicopter and airplane pilot aswell I've done all the dangerous maneuvers from full down and throttle chop autorotations to vortex ring state at higher altitudes. Both are very dangerous but that is the nature of a helicopter it is a very safe aircraft that isnt forgiving it says that in the saftey notices too for the R-22. It is also not just that airplane pilots get paid more the flight training for a helicopter pilot is like 80g-100gs which is like more than double compared to an airplane pilots flight training just to get your cfi only.
We teach "recognition and recovery" my bro. Absolutely no need for 4000 FPM. Keep in mind that every rotor system will critically stall at 'x' rate of decent
Maybe long haul airline captains get paid more because of the lay overs and body clock getting messed up all the time which isn’t healthy. I imagine it could get quite boring sat in auto pilot for hours over an ocean and maybe people wouldn’t do it if they didn’t get paid so much.
Want excitement go work for a medivac company, plenty of excitement and challenges, and saving lives! I worked for Air Evac Life team. Anvis 9 NVG’s makes night flying like day Time except green, I liked night flying as well as day. I was paid 70k for half a years flying and that was back in 2O14-16. Airline flying is safer, cargo even safer.
Your numbers are wrong …. Many helicopter pilots make more than airline pilots….do your research!!! And a helicopter takes far more skill and is far less forgiving to fly than an airplane !!! Do your research !
🙂 Flew helicopters for 20 years, retired flying in 2010, very few jobs for hell pilots unless you have thousands upon thousands of dollars to spend on building hours, that comes out of your pocket. My airline pilot’s son started his fixed training a few years back and he’s already flying as a copilot for a regional airline, do the math
Co-Pilot for Regional airline is a joke. A Helicopter Pilot DGAF about anything but being a helicopter pilot. Deals with bureaucratic lame BS, Spineless fake attitudes, want a bee's, Back stabbing low time & experience idiots, cheep Charlie helicopter owners etc. on a daily basis. They're tough Human Beings willing to pay the price, never wimping out to be unique selfless
Quality serving, God Fairing individuals. MC Hammer has a song about the few, that have earned & been blessed with the career no matter how deep the hell gets. "YOU CANT TOUCH THIS"
I'd like to take this opportunity to say "the breed is near extinction" May God have Mercy on us😇
Pilot hack, get your fixed wing training out of the way. Get an ATP through a 121 regional. Then get the rotorcraft ATP add on.
"Ten hours and they can kinda hover"
Wait, what? It takes most people that long?
To me , besides auto rotation , hovering was the hardest maneuver to master.
The salary issue comes up quite a bit from time to time if you spend enough time in or around aviation.
But it's actually a simple and logical explanation as to why fixed wing pilots earn more than rotary wing pilots, and it's quite simply the bums on seats.... a newer commercial fixed wing pilot will earn similar money to the chopper pilot, but add another 350 paying customers and of course the value of that pilot goes up.
It's nothing to do with skill or volumes of training, just the simple fact that any flight is paid for by someone, or in the airline pilots case, a lot of someone's.
Enjoyed your video too btw and I agree with you that the benefits of training manoeuvres on the edge of controlled flight are outweighed by the risks.
The old adage right, " There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots.... but there are no old and bold pilots".
Cargo pilots are paid just as much as….
A couple points I have. Im not trying to change your mind, just my opinion an experience. If you're scared of teaching VRS and settling with power you must be low. Get 2,000 ft AGL and do it there. You have plenty of altitude to recover It can be uncomfortable but the helicopter isnt going to come apart. And if you think the top tier of helicopters is HAA then thats sad. That is the most boring job, tons of drama depending on the crew and typically the medcrew drives the bus. HAA is not for me, if that was my last option to flying I'd hang it up. Fires and Utility are where its at for me. I get to fly in some of the coolest terrain, everyday is challenging, I work 12 on 12 off and the money is good. Of course I wish it was better. I started flying airplanes, they can be fun but I'm a true rotorhead.
the commercial airlines generate more money from passengers so they can afford to pay their pilots more, helicopters only fly like 4-6 people, compared to a couple hundred in an airplane
He needs to look up some of the nitro heli RC pilots cutting grass
Vierchard makes it easy
Eh, work schedule is huge, though. Helicopters are typically 7/7or 14/14 day schedules. Airlines are choppy schedules and you have to work for years to get a good one. I make about $140k and have every other two weeks off. That’s great for me. Your life doesn’t really improve much in a way that will make you happier after the first $100k unless you are happy constantly comparing yourself to others.
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I think jobs are hard to get, you need at least 2,000 hours before anyone will talk to you, then your sweeping floors for a year before they let you near the machine, so is it worth spending a small fortune to maybe get a job, there is not that great pilot shortage like they say there is.You might spend over $120,000 and hope you get a job.
Regarding whom might land a helicopter...I went through Army WOFT in the 70's and most of my class soloed at about 12 hrs having never flown anything prior. The student who was second to last to solo had an MEL Commercial ticket but couldn't hover well nor slow down his approaches (he ultimately resigned). Years later I took FW lessons under the GI Bill and my only difficultly was (initially) getting too high and slow on approach! I've thought for years that civilian training is constrained; the 40-hr minimum for a PPL is too high - should be based solely on ability.
Saying you can’t stall at helicopter is being a bit disingenuous Retreat Blade Stall is a high concern in rotor wing. VRS and settling with power would be the same as a Power-On Stall, you are no longer creating lift. Both aircraft at low altitude is a concern when you are low, slow and uncoordinated. I start my flying adventure in the R44.. Mid-training one of our instructors was killed during practices hovering with a student. Each has there Pros and Cons. But both are definitely Awesome to flight. So far as wages.. There are more Union Commercial/ATP Pilot than Helicopter.
Airline pilots get paid more because airlines are thousands of times more profitable than EMS or LE heli flying.
LA County Fire pilots (firehawk) are geting paid in the 400's.. not too bad. The jobs are out there.
Isn’t it 12x more likely to have a crash in a helicopter while training? If I weigh 206 lbs. what type of helicopter should I train in? where is a good place to train in the USA in the winter? I don’t want to do it for work but am considering it for kicks and giggles and I have a nice property on the water to land. Thank you.
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I bet I could land a heli. I have like 45 minutes of experience
You need to continue with airplanes and go with the airlines bro that’s where the money and the protection is. Believe me I did EMS for 19 years (but had 2 other passive sources of income that compensated for the LOW pay versus an airline pilot these days)
Helicopter especially EMS is surly more dangerous, obviously, but it doesn’t matter you dint get paid for sht versus airline. Go with helicopter EMS and it will take you 10-12 years to make $100,000 base. Airline you will be making it in 2. Also your top out pay with helicopters is an absolute joke.
It's not truth that at towered airport there is somebody there to watch your back on a radar
I think experienced airplane pilots, especially taildragger pilots, can land a helicopter by treating it like an airplane and lending on the skids at slow speed. Would love to take on that challenge in a bet.
Your financial analysis of airplane pilots is skewed because you used examples of senior pay rates at best majors.
And are you one of the the new pilots who has no idea how bad the industry has been historically?
But helicopter pilots are by definition supremem stick and rudder skilled.
Do oil rig man, move to Louisiana.
$400,000 a year for an airline pilot. 😂😂
Seems like an incompetent instructor..
Join a police department then become a helicopter pilot.
Did you say you wouldn’t ramble on, because you are rambling,I’m out…
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