@@triton1060 Glenn Miller is an outstanding oktavist, truly. But I'd say Miller's speaking voice is somewhat bassier and harsher than his. Not that velvety, I'd say ...
The cerebellum in your brain is the master scriptwriter for muscle movement. If you constantly change fingering while you're playing, the cerebellum cannot write a consistent script in your brain for how to use your fingers to play a passage. Having rigorous fingering and sticking to it allows your brain to more easily form the motor script that will help you memorize the peace and play it smoothly.
Very well said, not to mention exactly right. It’s a *really* good idea to try to find the right fingerings from the very beginning stages of learning a new piece. That said, sometimes we discover later in the game that a fingering just doesn’t work. It might work, say, at a slower tempo but not at a faster tempo. It’s best to try to avoid changing fingerings once they’re ingrained, though sometimes finding a new fingering is the easiest solution.
@@key-notes Agree. Sometimes in the process we find something that works better. Maybe what we initially came up with is awkward or not elegant. Sometimes we find that out when our brain seems to have a lot of trouble making a certain fingering strategy work. Then it is on to a new strategy.
Wonderfull voice! no wonder he is a mudician. Clear, eloquent and well tempered voice. But most importantl, he is teaching soomething so valuable to all of us amateur pianists and professionals! Thank you❤
This man is obviously a professionally trained musician who probably attended some well respected music academy, like Juilliard or something like that 🎹🎶
IMHO, fingering is not only one of the most crucial aspects of learning, it's THE most crucial aspect of learning a piece, I always deliberately spend a lot of time on this, more time than would seem necessary
@@fionabegonia7802 Same here. I ALWAYS write them down with my own code. My natural fingering in red, alternate fingering in green (sometimes I hesitate between two options and practice will eventually decide for me. I use circled numbers when a particular fingering is really crucial
@@_Francis For me, working out and writing in fingerings is step 1 of learning any piece. Jörg Demus told me it was the most important factor in his extraordinary musical memory.
@@_Francis Even into very old age, you could name pretty much any piece by Bach and he could immediately play it from memory! It was incredible to witness. He shared some of his scores with me and showed me how he wrote in his fingerings in large and clear ink. He said he’d get to the point where he only has to read the finger numbers, and this solidified his superhuman memory.
Excellent tips. Most of my transfer students in the 30 years I’ve been teaching, have not been taught technical work (scales, triads, arpeggios) I really like that you’ve emphasized the importance of these. I agree with all of your rules!
I came here to say the same thing other folks have said. You've got a great voice. Some voiceover talent there for sure! The fact that I'm commenting means that I also liked the content of the video. Thank you!
I am happy about these specifications. Thank you so much for the work of preparing this video. When I was a beginner, I took any written fingering as an obligation and did my best to cope with it, even if it felt awkward to my hands. Now, I take those numbers as mere, mostly wise, suggestions. But often I do rewrite printed fingering patterns. At times it takes me some days and quite a few variants until I find what really works for me. Keeping a joyful, relaxed feeling in my fingers is crucial to me. Sometimes I even cross my 4th finger under the 3rd finger when the 3rd lies on a black key and I have to play the adjacent white key (upwards for the left hand and downwards for the right hand). Or I cross my 4th finger over my 5th, when the 5th happens to lie on a white key and the 4th shall reach the adjacent black key half a tone upwards (right hand) or downwards (left hand). I know it's weird, but it works marvellously for me.
Yes, editorial fingerings are just suggestions. Since fingering is so intertwined with touch and therefore expression, especially with articulation, often suggested fingerings are designed to express the music the way the editor hears it. If I want a different expression, usually the first thing I do is try different fingerings.
@@bafgcde Yes, I do twist my wrist a little (left hand counterclockwise and right hand clockwise) when doing that. Probably it's a complete no-go in good piano technique, but in some special instances I can easily bridge some otherwise demanding passages and maintain calm and parsimonious movements with my hands. It simply feels and sounds great to me ... 😇
Excellent treatment! I'm a self learner at 62 but this makes perfect sense to me :) By the way I was fortunate to be able to tour the Bosendorfer factory ( more like a studio ), in Vienna a few years back.
Wonderful! Did you go to the Bösendorfer Salon in the Musikverein? The factory is in a town outside Vienna called Wiener Neustadt. This is where these beautiful pianos are built! It’s well worth a tour if you ever get an opportunity.
These are very useful rules which will facilitate playing and learning. The only one I don't fully agree with is avoiding using the thumb on black keys. I find the thumb on a black key can quite often be a very comfortable and effective choice. In fact, sometimes the attempts to avoid it can result in a more awkward fingering. So I keep a very open mind about the thumb!
Agreed! These are just meant to be rules of thumb. I always teach students that there are exceptions to every rule. I’d first try without the thumb on black keys since usually that’s most comfortable and sounds the most smooth, though sometimes it does make sense to play black keys with the thumb. I opted for this approach in one of the cadenza passages in Liszt’s Ricordanza for instance, since that lets me use the same fingering for the motive no matter what the pattern of black and white keys happens to be. It takes practice and getting used to, but it makes it easier to remember and the fingers don’t get tangled up.
Any time I start a new piece of classical music, I always study it. I'm a horrible reader and usually memorize most of the music to some extent. But one of the first things I do is play out notes and determine fingering. It is truly a big deal. Usually I just note the important changes like when you switch back to thumb or use 3 instead of 2 or 4 instead of 3. And just put a big fat number over the note for that one key finger position change and everything else falls into place. Studying also reveals some bizarre fingering that you have to figure out. Playing Hungarian Rhapsody, there's a chord that's only possible by playing 2 black notes with my thumb. I'm probably wrong, but my hands won't work otherwise.
I came to the same conclusions since I have trigger finger and carpal tunnel and had to teach myself with the help of my piano professor. To use my bodies mechanics to your advantage not work against them, ultimately what makes it easiest allows for the best duplication and repetition of what’s hopefully a great performance
Oh, I have just watched this video again, but not that much out of interest for its content (which I have understood well at the first watch) but simply out of desire to listen again to your beautiful, calm and kind voice. 🥰
Another very important rule for fingering, especially for students, is: stay in one position unless the music requires you to move to another position. Students tend to move around unncessesarily, which complicates things and makes it more difficult. Also, don't be afraid to change fingering as you learn the music better. I have often found an advantage to using a different fingering after I have worked on a piece for a while. And I often change it back again! You have to weigh all the advantages and disadvantages in each case.
I think this is a judgment call that mostly depends on the student’s current level and their level of preparation with a particular piece. Sometimes I’ll ask students to play a line with different fingering just to test other types of musical memory and see if they’re relying entirely on motor (muscle) memory. In general, it would be ideal to find the perfect fingering from the very beginning and stick with it, but in practice this isn’t always possible. As for limiting changes of hand position, again it really depends. I think here you have to weigh convenience and practicality against the desired expression. Sometimes you can get the same sound/expression without changing hand positions as much, but other times changing hand positions gets you the desired sound more easily.
I just started learning Beethoven’s A minor Violin Sonata, Op. 23, and the suggested fingerings in one edition have so many unnecessary changes of hand position that it’s driving me crazy! It’s so much easier to learn the music if the hands don’t have to change position needlessly.
Fingering correctly and writing them in and keeping consistent is paramount! I taught all my students to do this - to make sure the guess work is not employed. Also there’s lots of inadequate and right down stupid editing in many or most volumes of music
Paul Badura-Skoda taught me that he felt this technique is overused in general. When reading editorial fingerings, it seems it‘s sometimes done reflexively, in places where it‘s clearly neither necessary nor beneficial, such as moderately slow passages. But in faster passages it‘s a necessary technique for sure. It‘s largely a matter of personal preference. Last week I had a rehearsal of Beethoven‘s Spring Sonata, and in the fourth movement there‘s a passage that has many repeated notes. The tempo is fast but not extreme. It‘s right on the edge, where the repeated notes could be played with one finger or changing fingers. I still haven‘t decided!
To the advanced and professional pisnists, I'd highly recommend to check Godowsky's Suite Java. It's a set of 12 extremely difficult and gorgeous pieces that require an out of the box pianism and weird fingering. Godowsky wrote a preface and addendum for this suite where he highly recommend following his own fingering to succeed. There's some really tricky passages with strange fingers that actually work rather well. After playing this suite, I feel that I'm a better pianist because Godowsky wrote so many little details that you can actually see how he thinks and how his pianism works, and teaches you a lot of new approaches on fingering. It's one of those examples that breaks a lot of rules, specially on this video, that only a master like Godowksy could break. I cannot recommend enough this suite, please go check it with the score in front of you!
As a fellow Godowsky player, I can only wholeheartedly concur. His music is famous for its often extraordinary technical difficulty that eclipses even that of Liszt and Rachmaninoff, but he also wrote pedagogical editions and edited works by other composers, adding imaginative and expressive fingering suggestions. Thank you for mentioning this suggestion!
@@key-notes What really baffles me is how Godowsky is still only moderately known, or known only by his version of the Chopin etudes. Rachmaninoff and Liszt music is incredible, but mostly written for their own hands, and aren't very friendly or confortable to play most of the time. Unlike them, Godowsky really cared how people would play his music, so he had a more pedagogic and humane approach to them. It's written for the common hand. I understand that his music can be too intricate and complex for its own good, but still, I can't understand why he isn't more talked about. His 40 miniatures for piano 4 hands is a great teaching material, I highly recommend as well!
@@antonioluissilvapiano Agreed! Godowsky seriously deserves to be known not just for his Chopin Etude arrangements-however incredible they are-but also for his excellent pedagogical editions!
@@antonioluissilvapianoI’m honored to share a few of my Godowsky performances with someone who also appreciates his music! Here are two of his Chopin Etude arrangements: soundcloud.com/godowskysociety/sets/albert-frantz-pianist-in-a
@@key-notes incredible performance, congratulations! I'm still working on his Java Suite, I've played 7 of the 12 movements, but they aren't as clean as I wanted. But I would love to record them all in the future!
In my opinion, there is one important exception to the "find your own fingering" rule: Pieces that are meant for learners may sometimes have a specific fingering in order to teach you a specific skill. Say, the piece wants to teach you to put your thumb under your second finger or your second finger over your thumb. A very important skill to have. Then the notes will have fingering that forces you to do that, even when other kinds of fingering would have been easier. But if you use that easier fingering instead, you won't learn what the piece tries to teach you.
Yes, a very good point! Thanks for sharing. Recently I heard a pianist split the infamous double notes in Liszt’s “Feux follets” between the hands. Clever solution… but is it legal? 🤔
I recently saw a saxophone player playing a difficult trill using his - at that moment - free other hand. It sounded beautiful but the first thing that came to my mind was: is this legal? 😂
Whenever you play real music, I don't care how you do it. If you're trying to develop your technique, why would I want to listen? If it's really such an important skill the composer should be able to write a passage where there's no alternative.
I'd say good advice. In particular rule #1. My span is not quite a 10th, so editorial fingering written for wide passages are often useless for me. And also, it is always better to avoid stretching wherever possible. Stretching is more likely to cause unwanted tension which will cause all sorts of difficulties. Another technique, (not so much for beginners) and particularily for fast pasages, is to play the passage with whatever fingering comes to mind as close to full speed as possible. Do this many many times. You'll start to get a feel for which patterns are going to be more effective. Then choose one of them and write it down. Stick to it and practice it slowly!
That’s nothing to be concerned about, Roberta. If Alicia de Larrocha, Yuja Wang, Josef Hofmann and many others didn’t let small hands stop them, neither should you! It’s usually possible to find a fingering for a passage that suits smaller hands. You can also choose music that fits your hands the way singers choose music that suits their individual voice. There’s such an abundance of beautiful music out there that you’ll never run out of new pieces.
My piano teacher, Otto Hinkelmann invented the modified Chopin position in Vienna (a student of Leschetitzky who was tragically shot in the hand during WW1, ending his concert career). Just so you know.
Thanks for letting us know! This slightly modified hand position also occurred to me since my hands are larger and it’s also symmetrical. So sorry to hear of his hand. Thankfully he continued to make a contribution through his teaching.
I’m still not losing hope that I could own a piano one day and pour my passionate musician self that I’ve been keeping inside for years long. But is it fine to enter a piano sessions even I don’t own one? I just want to learn the basic skills of piano.
From my own journey: Buy a decent electronic keyboard. NOT a casio or other cheap toy. You really will get what you pay for. A crummy KB will hinder you greatly. I spent about $250 on a yamaha and it was the FIRST time I began to make real progress. I am self taught. As for a teacher, YT has many teachers doing great work. Find one who fits your style of learning. I find that the best ones state what they are saying in short, clear, concise terms while the worst ones show off and blather endlessly--they waste my time. You can get what you need in a budget friendly way. A physical teacher can get you moving until you reach a point where you can be self-guiding. Good luck. You can do it!
QUESTION: when playing octaves, when should 3 or 4 substitute 5? Sometimes it seems obvious, but in a long series of octaves it can take me a long time to make decisions on fingering
It depends on hand size and the speed of the passage. Some players with smaller hands find 1-4 an uncomfortable stretch for octaves, so they might choose 1-5 throughout a passage. I do like playing octaves with 1-5 on both black and white keys, but I very often play 1-4 on black keys, especially if it’s a fast passage. In that case I keep the hand close to the end of the black keys to minimize in and out movement. Then it’s easy to switch between 4 for black keys and 5 for white keys.
@@key-notes Thanks so much for your quick and insightful response! Agreed about 1-4 on black keys, especially when moving to adjacent white keys. 1-3 and 1-2 octaves have never been comfortable for me, and yet I see those fingerings suggested in many of my pieces.
Do you think that there is a difference between slow and fast fingering? That is; if one works out a fingering slowly for a piece would that necessarily be the best fingering when playing the piece faster, "at tempo"?
Yes, there can absolutely be a difference! It’s by far preferable to find the right fingerings that will work up to tempo in the beginning stage of learning a passage. We should try our best to look ahead and if possible test small sections faster to see if our fingerings will get us where we want to go. It sometimes still happens to me that I discover that a fingering I chose and practiced slowly just doesn’t work at speed. With experience, though, this happens less frequently. Good point-thanks for bringing it up!
I did not understand a thing. Was busy listening to the voice. Subscribed. I am a beginner. I am sure I will learn from you. For now, the voice will do. 🎉
That’s too kind! Thank you so much. We have a free Facebook group for piano learners; feel free to join us there: facebook.com/groups/pianojourney There’s also a well-structured course for adult beginning to intermediate players available on www.key-notes.com Happy to help you in your musical journey!
Good tips thank you, as an old starter after I stopped playing at 12 years of age(bad mistake) took it back up at 62, and now 69. One thing I didn't account for is the fact I'm older and when your young your brain soaks in information, not so much when you're older. Genuinely wish I'd kept playing, but still enjoy practicing every day for at least 2 hours. Drive the wife mad practicing scales for at least 30 minutes, but just tell her to go to another room. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Key-Notes (www.key-notes.com) is a step-by-step method that shows all fingering in detail. There’s a built-in app, the Virtual Practice Room, that even shows which finger to play for each note, synced to a professional performance of each piece as well as to the sheet music and an on-screen piano keyboard. This is the easiest way to learn fingerings in pieces of music!
Hmm... maybe it's a matter of balance between the voice and piano mics? I'm using very high-end (i.e., crazy expensive) mics for the piano (Earthworks), and the piano is as good as they come (the finest Bösendorfer Imperial I've ever played). Will try to improve the balance in future videos.
@@key-notes The piano sure does sound great too. I didn't mean that the piano sound was bad. It's just that your voice is so cool, it's even better than a Bosendorfer :D It was just a compliment, sir. And thank you for the great video I have learned a lot.
@@esnrp Oh, that’s incredibly kind-thank you so much! Sincerely appreciated. 🙏 Based on the feedback and questions this video has sparked, we’re dedicating a masterclass to it this weekend so we can explore the topic in depth. It’s for Key-Notes members and the recording is available. Would be great if you could join us later today if you’re interested in going into greater detail and have any questions I can help you with. key-notes.com/keys-to-mastery
Why not mirror the fingering of the right hand with that of the left hand when playing scales? The right hand has the ideal fingering, unlike the left hand. So why not apply it to the left hand as well? Of course, sometimes the little finger would not be on the root note, but that is not the case with scales with many accidentals anyway. For ergonomic reasons, the fingering of the right hand is mirrored there anyway. So why not use it for all scales?
I wish that worked in general, but since the hands are mirror images of one another, this tends to work only for certain scales in contrary motion. The mirror image keys on the piano are D and Ab/G#; going up and down from one of these keys gives you the same pattern of black and white keys, so in those cases it’s easy to use the same fingering in both hands. Also, you might find that this unorthodox fingering works for other scales at slower tempos, but if you want to play them fast and smoothly, it’s really best to use the standard, tried and true fingerings.
That’s very kind. I wish I could sing! My solfège professor in college used to tease me by playing a middle C for everyone else and the bottom A for me, but unfortunately my vocal range is barely an octave! I sometimes joke that the extra keys on a Bösendorfer Imperial are meant for my vocal range.
Debussy’s 1st Arabesque. Here’s a performance I gave of this beautiful piece in memory of my mentor Paul Badura-Skoda: ruclips.net/video/hdMrgY6loIM/видео.html
I’m identified in the video description actually. Would it be more helpful to do so directly in the videos too? Thanks for sharing your observation/suggestion.
YEAH YOUR TIMBRE VOICE IS CRAZY MAN I CAN IMAGINE WITH SOMETHING IN A DYNAMIC OR TUBE MIC WITH A COMPRESSION AND MAXIMIZER, I DID A LOT OF VOICE OVER WORK, YOURS IS PERFECT. THANKS FOR THE VIDEO I HAVE TROUBLE WHEN PIECES ARE HARM IN THIRDS LIKE A MAJOR AND YOU HAVE TO BRING THE MELODY OUT OF THE OUTTER VOICING A THE SAME TIME.
That’s very kind, thank you! Actually I have a funny story about that: For the opening of the redesigned Beethoven Museum in Vienna a few years ago, I got asked to record Beethoven’s Heiligenstadt Testament in English. This is his most important letter, a passionate expression of defiance in the face of deafness which he wrote to his brothers. I figured, if I can’t become the voice of Beethoven through my playing, at least I can do it through my voice! Anyway, I got invited to the opening of the new museum. In the room that displays the famous letter, there are headphones and buttons for English and German. Next to the English button it said, “Narrator: Patrick Lamb.” I thought, “Who the hell is Patrick Lamb?” I put on the headphones and heard my voice! They’ve since fixed the label, so Mr. Lamb won’t have to worry about me doing injustice to his voice. More recently I was visiting the museum, and a tourist happened to be listening to that recording and heard the same voice talking in the background. Turns out he had a podcast and invited me to it, where we shared that story!
The thing I absolutely disagree with is when he talked about playing the music through before choosing the fingerings. Unless you have a whole lot of real talent, this will get you into trouble on any piece of music you will never get out of when playing that particular piece of music. My fingering rules: THE WAY YOU PLAY IT THE FIRST TIME IS THE WAY YOU KNOW IT BEST. So it is necessary for the non genius to program their neurology to play PERFECTLY every time. This is easy if: A) you break the music into very small sections that overlap, that the last note of one tiny section is the first note of the next section. I don't have time to go through the rest of it. 1. Each fingering must be logical, efficient and comfortable. There may be more than one finger order that meets this requirement for a given set of notes, so choose one and stick to it. Until students have enough experience to determine the details of how to follow this, collaborating with a teacher is the best path. Often fingering marked in a edition is a very good guide. Student music usually has reasonable fingerings pre marked. Following them will nearly always give good results 2. Fingerings need to be chosen BEFORE you play the music for the first time. This is not difficult when you have enough experience, so either work with a decent teacher, follow fingerings marked in the music, or find someone to finger the music for you. 3. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS play any given passage with the same fingering every time you play it. Generally that would include if the same theme is in a new key, like he said.
It’s true that ideally, everyone would find the perfect fingering for their hands and desired expression the very first time, yet in practice it usually doesn’t work quite so easily. It takes time for motor (“muscle”) memory to form since it’s a type of long-term memory, and that time increases as we age. The good news is that this means we have some room to find suitable fingerings. After a certain point, though, once a fingering has been learned, it might not be worth the effort and risk to change it. That’s a judgment call that needs to be made on a case-by-case basis. Since you mentioned different rules for geniuses, Franz Liszt once cut his finger the day of a concert. He’s said to have played a Beethoven concerto on the spot with new fingerings to avoid playing with the injured finger!
Dude you need to be marketing that voice as well. Talent for speaking and Playing Piano....Im sooo jealous...BTW..it seems you also know your way around audio recording gear...lips are barely moving (talking naturally) and not a mic to be found nowhere in close proximity.
That is so kind-thank you so much! 🙏 The Tonmeister / audio engineer who recorded my albums, Martin Klebahn of 4tune Audio Productions in Vienna (www.4tune.at), helped me enormously with the mics, so he really deserves credit.
You have an amazing voice.
I thought so too. 🥰
Was gonna say, he reminds me of an oktavist known as Glenn Miller
@@triton1060 Glenn Miller is an outstanding oktavist, truly. But I'd say Miller's speaking voice is somewhat bassier and harsher than his. Not that velvety, I'd say ...
It’s the $1,000 microphone
Proper radio voice!!
“Your hands are uniquely yours.” Such a beautiful phrase beyond piano learning.
The cerebellum in your brain is the master scriptwriter for muscle movement. If you constantly change fingering while you're playing, the cerebellum cannot write a consistent script in your brain for how to use your fingers to play a passage. Having rigorous fingering and sticking to it allows your brain to more easily form the motor script that will help you memorize the peace and play it smoothly.
Very well said, not to mention exactly right. It’s a *really* good idea to try to find the right fingerings from the very beginning stages of learning a new piece. That said, sometimes we discover later in the game that a fingering just doesn’t work. It might work, say, at a slower tempo but not at a faster tempo. It’s best to try to avoid changing fingerings once they’re ingrained, though sometimes finding a new fingering is the easiest solution.
@@key-notes Agree. Sometimes in the process we find something that works better. Maybe what we initially came up with is awkward or not elegant. Sometimes we find that out when our brain seems to have a lot of trouble making a certain fingering strategy work. Then it is on to a new strategy.
@@key-notesthe fast /slow tempo is definitely true that's why I pencil mine in first.
🤪
Rule 8. If the piano says it likes it, don't stop
🤣 🤣 🤣
what
what 😭
I knew I wasn’t the only one who thought about that
"fingering"
This is the best introduction to fingering that I've ever seen. Thank you very much!!
LOL in another context that means something quite different
Ok, petition to have this guy read audiobooks??!
Exactly 💯 correct @CozyKode
His voice is beautiful ❤️
What a lovely voice!❤
Wonderfull voice! no wonder he is a mudician. Clear, eloquent and well tempered voice. But most importantl, he is teaching soomething so valuable to all of us amateur pianists and professionals! Thank you❤
That’s truly kind-thank you so much! 🙏
This man is obviously a professionally trained musician who probably attended some well respected music academy, like Juilliard or something like that 🎹🎶
IMHO, fingering is not only one of the most crucial aspects of learning, it's THE most crucial aspect of learning a piece, I always deliberately spend a lot of time on this, more time than would seem necessary
So do I ! I write in most fingerings.
@@fionabegonia7802 Same here. I ALWAYS write them down with my own code. My natural fingering in red, alternate fingering in green (sometimes I hesitate between two options and practice will eventually decide for me. I use circled numbers when a particular fingering is really crucial
@@_Francis For me, working out and writing in fingerings is step 1 of learning any piece. Jörg Demus told me it was the most important factor in his extraordinary musical memory.
@@key-notes Same here. Jörg Demus is very wise
@@_Francis Even into very old age, you could name pretty much any piece by Bach and he could immediately play it from memory! It was incredible to witness. He shared some of his scores with me and showed me how he wrote in his fingerings in large and clear ink. He said he’d get to the point where he only has to read the finger numbers, and this solidified his superhuman memory.
Excellent tips. Most of my transfer students in the 30 years I’ve been teaching, have not been taught technical work (scales, triads, arpeggios) I really like that you’ve emphasized the importance of these. I agree with all of your rules!
Thank you for validating the choice of fingerings when applicable .
Love this video! Rules to explains a lot of the “why” questions!
Thank you so much! 🙏
That is an amazing teaching with a lot of useable techniques. Thank You.
I like the very organized approach. Thank you.
I came here to say the same thing other folks have said. You've got a great voice. Some voiceover talent there for sure! The fact that I'm commenting means that I also liked the content of the video. Thank you!
That’s so incredibly kind! Thank you so much. 🙏
I am happy about these specifications. Thank you so much for the work of preparing this video.
When I was a beginner, I took any written fingering as an obligation and did my best to cope with it, even if it felt awkward to my hands. Now, I take those numbers as mere, mostly wise, suggestions. But often I do rewrite printed fingering patterns. At times it takes me some days and quite a few variants until I find what really works for me.
Keeping a joyful, relaxed feeling in my fingers is crucial to me.
Sometimes I even cross my 4th finger under the 3rd finger when the 3rd lies on a black key and I have to play the adjacent white key (upwards for the left hand and downwards for the right hand). Or I cross my 4th finger over my 5th, when the 5th happens to lie on a white key and the 4th shall reach the adjacent black key half a tone upwards (right hand) or downwards (left hand). I know it's weird, but it works marvellously for me.
Yes, editorial fingerings are just suggestions. Since fingering is so intertwined with touch and therefore expression, especially with articulation, often suggested fingerings are designed to express the music the way the editor hears it. If I want a different expression, usually the first thing I do is try different fingerings.
Kind of a wrist twist, and use the outside of finger 4?
@@bafgcde Yes, I do twist my wrist a little (left hand counterclockwise and right hand clockwise) when doing that. Probably it's a complete no-go in good piano technique, but in some special instances I can easily bridge some otherwise demanding passages and maintain calm and parsimonious movements with my hands. It simply feels and sounds great to me ... 😇
As of the last rule - Busoni, one of the greatest pianists ever, declared he wrote every single fingering! Every last one! 😊
Godowsky in his editions also writes in practically every fingering! His fingerings are novel, so it makes plenty of sense.
Excellent treatment! I'm a self learner at 62 but this makes perfect sense to me :) By the way I was fortunate to be able to tour the Bosendorfer factory ( more like a studio ), in Vienna a few years back.
Wonderful! Did you go to the Bösendorfer Salon in the Musikverein? The factory is in a town outside Vienna called Wiener Neustadt. This is where these beautiful pianos are built! It’s well worth a tour if you ever get an opportunity.
I was falling asleep with his very calming voice.
These are very useful rules which will facilitate playing and learning. The only one I don't fully agree with is avoiding using the thumb on black keys. I find the thumb on a black key can quite often be a very comfortable and effective choice. In fact, sometimes the attempts to avoid it can result in a more awkward fingering. So I keep a very open mind about the thumb!
Agreed! These are just meant to be rules of thumb. I always teach students that there are exceptions to every rule. I’d first try without the thumb on black keys since usually that’s most comfortable and sounds the most smooth, though sometimes it does make sense to play black keys with the thumb. I opted for this approach in one of the cadenza passages in Liszt’s Ricordanza for instance, since that lets me use the same fingering for the motive no matter what the pattern of black and white keys happens to be. It takes practice and getting used to, but it makes it easier to remember and the fingers don’t get tangled up.
Any time I start a new piece of classical music, I always study it. I'm a horrible reader and usually memorize most of the music to some extent. But one of the first things I do is play out notes and determine fingering. It is truly a big deal.
Usually I just note the important changes like when you switch back to thumb or use 3 instead of 2 or 4 instead of 3. And just put a big fat number over the note for that one key finger position change and everything else falls into place.
Studying also reveals some bizarre fingering that you have to figure out. Playing Hungarian Rhapsody, there's a chord that's only possible by playing 2 black notes with my thumb. I'm probably wrong, but my hands won't work otherwise.
Thank you dad from Full House.
😆That’s not the first time I’ve been compared to Bob Saget! Hey, he’s a fellow Philadelphian. Maybe a cousin?
Great video. Im going to show this to some of my students. Thanks!👍
Thank you so much! Hope your students find it helpful!
What a soothing voice
Fr😊
I came to the same conclusions since I have trigger finger and carpal tunnel and had to teach myself with the help of my piano professor. To use my bodies mechanics to your advantage not work against them, ultimately what makes it easiest allows for the best duplication and repetition of what’s hopefully a great performance
Actually one of my points of emphasis with my students.
These are quite helpful. Thank you so much for sharing these methods. You now have a subscriber.
Oh, I have just watched this video again, but not that much out of interest for its content (which I have understood well at the first watch) but simply out of desire to listen again to your beautiful, calm and kind voice. 🥰
That‘s so incredibly kind. Thank you so much. 🙏
Rule of thumb, okay, but where’s the rule of pinky? 😂
😃😄🙃🙃🙃🙂🙂🙂😁
THE Voice IS GIVING N GIVING!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ INSTANT SUBSCRIBER 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
That’s so incredibly kind-thank you so much, Mariah! ☺
Wonderful advice! Thank you!
Top stuff. I wish someone talked to me about this years ago.
Thank you so much!
Five fingers five colors is also very true for the guitar since vibrato is involved.
Thank you! This is very helpful!
I also like to apply the rule of fourth finger on Bb in right hand and fourth finger on Gb in left hand. By symmetry.
Yes, this is in fact the natural hand position, and it‘s how Chopin started his students at the piano!
Another very important rule for fingering, especially for students, is: stay in one position unless the music requires you to move to another position. Students tend to move around unncessesarily, which complicates things and makes it more difficult. Also, don't be afraid to change fingering as you learn the music better. I have often found an advantage to using a different fingering after I have worked on a piece for a while. And I often change it back again! You have to weigh all the advantages and disadvantages in each case.
I think this is a judgment call that mostly depends on the student’s current level and their level of preparation with a particular piece. Sometimes I’ll ask students to play a line with different fingering just to test other types of musical memory and see if they’re relying entirely on motor (muscle) memory. In general, it would be ideal to find the perfect fingering from the very beginning and stick with it, but in practice this isn’t always possible.
As for limiting changes of hand position, again it really depends. I think here you have to weigh convenience and practicality against the desired expression. Sometimes you can get the same sound/expression without changing hand positions as much, but other times changing hand positions gets you the desired sound more easily.
I just started learning Beethoven’s A minor Violin Sonata, Op. 23, and the suggested fingerings in one edition have so many unnecessary changes of hand position that it’s driving me crazy! It’s so much easier to learn the music if the hands don’t have to change position needlessly.
Thank you Albert Frantz! ❤️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Fingering correctly and writing them in and keeping consistent is paramount! I taught all my students to do this - to make sure the guess work is not employed. Also there’s lots of inadequate and right down stupid editing in many or most volumes of music
Quite informative and makes a lot of sense. Thanks very much.
that voicee.. gooodd dyaaauummm!💀🤍
Right click on the shortcuts bar of your browser, create a Folder, name the folder excellent piano links, drag this video url into it.
Thank you. Very good info. Cheers.
Thank you for this video. What are your thoughts on playing the same key consecutively while changing fingers instead of using the same finger?
Paul Badura-Skoda taught me that he felt this technique is overused in general. When reading editorial fingerings, it seems it‘s sometimes done reflexively, in places where it‘s clearly neither necessary nor beneficial, such as moderately slow passages. But in faster passages it‘s a necessary technique for sure. It‘s largely a matter of personal preference. Last week I had a rehearsal of Beethoven‘s Spring Sonata, and in the fourth movement there‘s a passage that has many repeated notes. The tempo is fast but not extreme. It‘s right on the edge, where the repeated notes could be played with one finger or changing fingers. I still haven‘t decided!
Great presentation. Listened to you and suddenly need to learn Lullaby.
Thank you sir!
I take editorial fingerings as a suggestion and starting-point. I go from there and may change a published fingering if it fits my hand better.
Exactly!
Do you do voice over work!?! Wow!!
Also, very informative and valuable video.
To the advanced and professional pisnists, I'd highly recommend to check Godowsky's Suite Java.
It's a set of 12 extremely difficult and gorgeous pieces that require an out of the box pianism and weird fingering.
Godowsky wrote a preface and addendum for this suite where he highly recommend following his own fingering to succeed. There's some really tricky passages with strange fingers that actually work rather well.
After playing this suite, I feel that I'm a better pianist because Godowsky wrote so many little details that you can actually see how he thinks and how his pianism works, and teaches you a lot of new approaches on fingering.
It's one of those examples that breaks a lot of rules, specially on this video, that only a master like Godowksy could break. I cannot recommend enough this suite, please go check it with the score in front of you!
As a fellow Godowsky player, I can only wholeheartedly concur. His music is famous for its often extraordinary technical difficulty that eclipses even that of Liszt and Rachmaninoff, but he also wrote pedagogical editions and edited works by other composers, adding imaginative and expressive fingering suggestions. Thank you for mentioning this suggestion!
@@key-notes What really baffles me is how Godowsky is still only moderately known, or known only by his version of the Chopin etudes.
Rachmaninoff and Liszt music is incredible, but mostly written for their own hands, and aren't very friendly or confortable to play most of the time.
Unlike them, Godowsky really cared how people would play his music, so he had a more pedagogic and humane approach to them. It's written for the common hand.
I understand that his music can be too intricate and complex for its own good, but still, I can't understand why he isn't more talked about.
His 40 miniatures for piano 4 hands is a great teaching material, I highly recommend as well!
@@antonioluissilvapiano Agreed! Godowsky seriously deserves to be known not just for his Chopin Etude arrangements-however incredible they are-but also for his excellent pedagogical editions!
@@antonioluissilvapianoI’m honored to share a few of my Godowsky performances with someone who also appreciates his music! Here are two of his Chopin Etude arrangements: soundcloud.com/godowskysociety/sets/albert-frantz-pianist-in-a
@@key-notes incredible performance, congratulations!
I'm still working on his Java Suite, I've played 7 of the 12 movements, but they aren't as clean as I wanted. But I would love to record them all in the future!
In my opinion, there is one important exception to the "find your own fingering" rule: Pieces that are meant for learners may sometimes have a specific fingering in order to teach you a specific skill. Say, the piece wants to teach you to put your thumb under your second finger or your second finger over your thumb. A very important skill to have. Then the notes will have fingering that forces you to do that, even when other kinds of fingering would have been easier. But if you use that easier fingering instead, you won't learn what the piece tries to teach you.
Yes, a very good point! Thanks for sharing. Recently I heard a pianist split the infamous double notes in Liszt’s “Feux follets” between the hands. Clever solution… but is it legal? 🤔
I recently saw a saxophone player playing a difficult trill using his - at that moment - free other hand. It sounded beautiful but the first thing that came to my mind was: is this legal? 😂
Whenever you play real music, I don't care how you do it. If you're trying to develop your technique, why would I want to listen? If it's really such an important skill the composer should be able to write a passage where there's no alternative.
@@madmanX1314 Who cares? It worked well. Rules evolve from principles and techniques that usually work well.
@@key-notes If it works well, it's legal in playing an instrument.
I'd say good advice. In particular rule #1. My span is not quite a 10th, so editorial fingering written for wide passages are often useless for me. And also, it is always better to avoid stretching wherever possible. Stretching is more likely to cause unwanted tension which will cause all sorts of difficulties. Another technique, (not so much for beginners) and particularily for fast pasages, is to play the passage with whatever fingering comes to mind as close to full speed as possible. Do this many many times. You'll start to get a feel for which patterns are going to be more effective. Then choose one of them and write it down. Stick to it and practice it slowly!
So, Chopin was the original creator of the Five-Finger Death Punch! Tres bien, tres bien!
👊😆
Thank you I have small fingers, but I try my very best
That’s nothing to be concerned about, Roberta. If Alicia de Larrocha, Yuja Wang, Josef Hofmann and many others didn’t let small hands stop them, neither should you! It’s usually possible to find a fingering for a passage that suits smaller hands. You can also choose music that fits your hands the way singers choose music that suits their individual voice. There’s such an abundance of beautiful music out there that you’ll never run out of new pieces.
My piano teacher, Otto Hinkelmann invented the modified Chopin position in Vienna (a student of Leschetitzky who was tragically shot in the hand during WW1, ending his concert career). Just so you know.
Thanks for letting us know! This slightly modified hand position also occurred to me since my hands are larger and it’s also symmetrical.
So sorry to hear of his hand. Thankfully he continued to make a contribution through his teaching.
@@key-notes My only teacher. 4 years of 3 hour lessons (no breaks). I learned Rach using manuscripts notated by the composer. All in Oklahoma City!
@@patrickshanahan7505 Wow, what an incredible, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity! Which Rachmaninoff pieces did you learn from the manuscript?!
Thanks ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you kindly🤍
I’m still not losing hope that I could own a piano one day and pour my passionate musician self that I’ve been keeping inside for years long.
But is it fine to enter a piano sessions even I don’t own one? I just want to learn the basic skills of piano.
Yes! Start lessons and find a teacher you enjoy. Let your inner musician express itself. You have gold inside of you !
From my own journey: Buy a decent electronic keyboard. NOT a casio or other cheap toy. You really will get what you pay for. A crummy KB will hinder you greatly. I spent about $250 on a yamaha and it was the FIRST time I began to make real progress. I am self taught.
As for a teacher, YT has many teachers doing great work. Find one who fits your style of learning. I find that the best ones state what they are saying in short, clear, concise terms while the worst ones show off and blather endlessly--they waste my time.
You can get what you need in a budget friendly way. A physical teacher can get you moving until you reach a point where you can be self-guiding. Good luck. You can do it!
QUESTION: when playing octaves, when should 3 or 4 substitute 5? Sometimes it seems obvious, but in a long series of octaves it can take me a long time to make decisions on fingering
It depends on hand size and the speed of the passage. Some players with smaller hands find 1-4 an uncomfortable stretch for octaves, so they might choose 1-5 throughout a passage. I do like playing octaves with 1-5 on both black and white keys, but I very often play 1-4 on black keys, especially if it’s a fast passage. In that case I keep the hand close to the end of the black keys to minimize in and out movement. Then it’s easy to switch between 4 for black keys and 5 for white keys.
@@key-notes Thanks so much for your quick and insightful response!
Agreed about 1-4 on black keys, especially when moving to adjacent white keys. 1-3 and 1-2 octaves have never been comfortable for me, and yet I see those fingerings suggested in many of my pieces.
Do you think that there is a difference between slow and fast fingering? That is; if one works out a fingering slowly for a piece would that necessarily be the best fingering when playing the piece faster, "at tempo"?
Yes, there can absolutely be a difference! It’s by far preferable to find the right fingerings that will work up to tempo in the beginning stage of learning a passage. We should try our best to look ahead and if possible test small sections faster to see if our fingerings will get us where we want to go. It sometimes still happens to me that I discover that a fingering I chose and practiced slowly just doesn’t work at speed. With experience, though, this happens less frequently. Good point-thanks for bringing it up!
I did not understand a thing. Was busy listening to the voice. Subscribed. I am a beginner. I am sure I will learn from you. For now, the voice will do. 🎉
That’s too kind! Thank you so much. We have a free Facebook group for piano learners; feel free to join us there: facebook.com/groups/pianojourney
There’s also a well-structured course for adult beginning to intermediate players available on www.key-notes.com
Happy to help you in your musical journey!
@@key-notes I am not on FB, but will definitely register next week.
great title
Ah very nice Finger it out for yourself
Good tips thank you, as an old starter after I stopped playing at 12 years of age(bad mistake) took it back up at 62, and now 69. One thing I didn't account for is the fact I'm older and when your young your brain soaks in information, not so much when you're older. Genuinely wish I'd kept playing, but still enjoy practicing every day for at least 2 hours. Drive the wife mad practicing scales for at least 30 minutes, but just tell her to go to another room. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Anyone pls help me with keyboard playing I don't know which finger should play what note. Or is it upto me
Key-Notes (www.key-notes.com) is a step-by-step method that shows all fingering in detail. There’s a built-in app, the Virtual Practice Room, that even shows which finger to play for each note, synced to a professional performance of each piece as well as to the sheet music and an on-screen piano keyboard. This is the easiest way to learn fingerings in pieces of music!
good info
much thanks
Thank you so much!
Thanks
Thank you!
You sound better than the piano.
Hmm... maybe it's a matter of balance between the voice and piano mics? I'm using very high-end (i.e., crazy expensive) mics for the piano (Earthworks), and the piano is as good as they come (the finest Bösendorfer Imperial I've ever played). Will try to improve the balance in future videos.
@@key-notes The piano sure does sound great too. I didn't mean that the piano sound was bad. It's just that your voice is so cool, it's even better than a Bosendorfer :D It was just a compliment, sir. And thank you for the great video I have learned a lot.
@@esnrp Oh, that’s incredibly kind-thank you so much! Sincerely appreciated. 🙏
Based on the feedback and questions this video has sparked, we’re dedicating a masterclass to it this weekend so we can explore the topic in depth. It’s for Key-Notes members and the recording is available. Would be great if you could join us later today if you’re interested in going into greater detail and have any questions I can help you with. key-notes.com/keys-to-mastery
I need agree with @esnrp, you have a increíble voice. I spent some seconds in realize that was you speaking, not a locution over the video.
You're more than a pianist 😮
Thank you.
Why not mirror the fingering of the right hand with that of the left hand when playing scales? The right hand has the ideal fingering, unlike the left hand. So why not apply it to the left hand as well? Of course, sometimes the little finger would not be on the root note, but that is not the case with scales with many accidentals anyway. For ergonomic reasons, the fingering of the right hand is mirrored there anyway. So why not use it for all scales?
I wish that worked in general, but since the hands are mirror images of one another, this tends to work only for certain scales in contrary motion. The mirror image keys on the piano are D and Ab/G#; going up and down from one of these keys gives you the same pattern of black and white keys, so in those cases it’s easy to use the same fingering in both hands. Also, you might find that this unorthodox fingering works for other scales at slower tempos, but if you want to play them fast and smoothly, it’s really best to use the standard, tried and true fingerings.
Ok but how do I get the piano to finish? Do I play a G?
Merci.
Ok my main concern changed after I heard your voice. Wondering whether you sing bass or not.
That’s very kind. I wish I could sing! My solfège professor in college used to tease me by playing a middle C for everyone else and the bottom A for me, but unfortunately my vocal range is barely an octave! I sometimes joke that the extra keys on a Bösendorfer Imperial are meant for my vocal range.
Well, about thumb rule. What do i do when playing beethoven's moonlight?
Always use the thumb when playing octaves. He was not talking about octaves playing.
Where have I seen you before?
Can i be your student do u give lessons?
finger it out yourself. love it
What is the intro piece?
Debussy’s 1st Arabesque. Here’s a performance I gave of this beautiful piece in memory of my mentor Paul Badura-Skoda: ruclips.net/video/hdMrgY6loIM/видео.html
@@key-notes hmm interesting, I always thought that descending pattern were kinda linked to Clair de Lune.. At least it sounds tonally connected to me
Could have sworn it was the owner of meta teaching piano fingering🤧.
🤓 This is the second time in the past couple weeks that I’ve been mistaken for Zuck! If only I had his billions.
Thanks
The cure for insomnia!
bob saget teaching me how to finger a piano
I watched this at work on lunch break on speaker and got sent to HR
😳Oh no! Hope you were at least able to convince HR of the value of learning a musical instrument!
❤
Instructions unclear : piano's pregnant
Not sure I follow, but I hope it births a baby grand! 🎹
More examples would have helped.
Why (how) does youtube have vids that do not identify a presenter??
I’m identified in the video description actually. Would it be more helpful to do so directly in the videos too? Thanks for sharing your observation/suggestion.
YEAH YOUR TIMBRE VOICE IS CRAZY MAN I CAN IMAGINE WITH SOMETHING IN A DYNAMIC OR TUBE MIC WITH A COMPRESSION AND MAXIMIZER,
I DID A LOT OF VOICE OVER WORK, YOURS IS PERFECT.
THANKS FOR THE VIDEO
I HAVE TROUBLE WHEN PIECES ARE HARM IN THIRDS LIKE A MAJOR AND YOU HAVE TO BRING THE MELODY OUT OF THE OUTTER VOICING A THE SAME TIME.
Does he do voice overs?
That’s very kind, thank you! Actually I have a funny story about that: For the opening of the redesigned Beethoven Museum in Vienna a few years ago, I got asked to record Beethoven’s Heiligenstadt Testament in English. This is his most important letter, a passionate expression of defiance in the face of deafness which he wrote to his brothers. I figured, if I can’t become the voice of Beethoven through my playing, at least I can do it through my voice!
Anyway, I got invited to the opening of the new museum. In the room that displays the famous letter, there are headphones and buttons for English and German. Next to the English button it said, “Narrator: Patrick Lamb.” I thought, “Who the hell is Patrick Lamb?” I put on the headphones and heard my voice! They’ve since fixed the label, so Mr. Lamb won’t have to worry about me doing injustice to his voice.
More recently I was visiting the museum, and a tourist happened to be listening to that recording and heard the same voice talking in the background. Turns out he had a podcast and invited me to it, where we shared that story!
The thing I absolutely disagree with is when he talked about playing the music through before choosing the fingerings. Unless you have a whole lot of real talent, this will get you into trouble on any piece of music you will never get out of when playing that particular piece of music.
My fingering rules:
THE WAY YOU PLAY IT THE FIRST TIME IS THE WAY YOU KNOW IT BEST. So it is necessary for the non genius to program their neurology to play PERFECTLY every time. This is easy if:
A) you break the music into very small sections that overlap, that the last note of one tiny section is the first note of the next section. I don't have time to go through the rest of it.
1. Each fingering must be logical, efficient and comfortable. There may be more than one finger order that meets this requirement for a given set of notes, so choose one and stick to it. Until students have enough experience to determine the details of how to follow this, collaborating with a teacher is the best path. Often fingering marked in a edition is a very good guide. Student music usually has reasonable fingerings pre marked. Following them will nearly always give good results
2. Fingerings need to be chosen BEFORE you play the music for the first time. This is not difficult when you have enough experience, so either work with a decent teacher, follow fingerings marked in the music, or find someone to finger the music for you.
3. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS play any given passage with the same fingering every time you play it. Generally that would include if the same theme is in a new key, like he said.
It’s true that ideally, everyone would find the perfect fingering for their hands and desired expression the very first time, yet in practice it usually doesn’t work quite so easily. It takes time for motor (“muscle”) memory to form since it’s a type of long-term memory, and that time increases as we age. The good news is that this means we have some room to find suitable fingerings.
After a certain point, though, once a fingering has been learned, it might not be worth the effort and risk to change it. That’s a judgment call that needs to be made on a case-by-case basis.
Since you mentioned different rules for geniuses, Franz Liszt once cut his finger the day of a concert. He’s said to have played a Beethoven concerto on the spot with new fingerings to avoid playing with the injured finger!
Do you think it’s possible to create an algorithm, given the music notation, that will determine the proper fingering?
Dude you need to be marketing that voice as well. Talent for speaking and Playing Piano....Im sooo jealous...BTW..it seems you also know your way around audio recording gear...lips are barely moving (talking naturally) and not a mic to be found nowhere in close proximity.
That is so kind-thank you so much! 🙏 The Tonmeister / audio engineer who recorded my albums, Martin Klebahn of 4tune Audio Productions in Vienna (www.4tune.at), helped me enormously with the mics, so he really deserves credit.
With such big hands.. I do t think you had problems
Cant wait to finger my piano
My goodness. You have an announcer's voice.
That’s very kind-thank you!
Gus ahh voice. Los pianos hermanos? 😅
"rule of thumb"
👍🎶🎹
Don't let instagram find this......