The question is whether morality is justifiable without a God. It annoys me how much people miss the centrality of that in this debate. Nobody denies that an atheist can adhere to the social/ moral norms of their time and place. It is whether, being a materialist, you can coherently justify those norms as objectively true and rationally compelling. This is not "can atheists adhere to normal morality" it is "is morality a coherent concept under atheism". Please stop missing the point on this.
Probably, but we didn't just all of a sudden have the religious beliefs. They evolved over time. Certainly in an atheist world morality would develop over time as well.
@@natethegr8230 The difference being that the morality will just suit the powerful, whereas Christians waged war on slavery at immense personal cost to rich and poor alike because Christ told us to do it. So great was our fervour that we were thought tyrants by men like Jefferson over it.
Morality already exist within everyone no matter what believe they represent . You don't NEED a believe system to be moral for everyone already is inherently. Almost everyone is just in denial of their most inner voice and refuses to listen to it because of the stresses created by the world which makes a believe system necessary for those who don't know how to listen to that voice.
@@natethegr8230On the contrary, there's never beena purely Atheist society that existed in ancient history. Religion and belief systems were deeply embedded in the fabric of ancient human life, serving as a cornerstone for identity, governance, and societal structure. One can argue for an Atheist society to eventually develop a sense of morality they'd have to adopt a more theistic viewpoint .
I think one of the strongest arguments against secular morality is that it's inevitably subjective. Without being able to appeal to a set of religious tenets, what one person considers moral is relative to his/her individual judgement. It lacks a uniting principle of codification, unlike scripture.
You could postulate that scripture is collectively adhered, but also "just" a set of arbitrarily adopted beliefs among other sets (i.e. other religions or moral systems). In Maps of Meaning (book and lectures), though, Peterson talks about how a joint agreement on fundamental principles is necessary to establish predictability. The difficult task comes from ordering belief systems.
@@altnarrative He’s gotten very egotistical in his righteousness. I agree with some of his beliefs but his insistence that delusion - religion - is real, ‘god’ is real, when jp is supposed to be a man of science, based on *evidence,* totally turned me off of him. He should keep his crazy where it belongs - at home and in church. We don’t come to hear about insanity from him, we come to hear his viewpoint regarding his chosen profession. He losing his intelligent fans and will be left with nothing but religious crazies. I hoped for better than this for him.
I listen to my most deep intuition to orient myself which I do through meditation. I don't need a to give it the name god to understand that it is of the utmost importance to listen.
Then there are those of us that are science based - something jp once insisted he was - that prefer to wait for empirical evidence before we cast our belief behind something. Jp left that rational space some time ago.
@ Empirical evidence of the existence of a creator. I’d settle for empirical evidence jesus ever existed, but as he is a product of the early church co-opting pagan ritual to bring in followers/$$$$$$, I doubt such evidence will ever be sourced.
And to continue this, ancient civilizations knew this and created “gods” to fit their morality. End point; It comes from God, but humanity needs it “gods” if they don’t want to accept the one true living God and Creator, Jesus Christ.
Im reminded of that movie, "City of Amber." Hundreds of years before, the forefathers created a amazing mechanical works to keep the city functioning. But over time, the descendants forgot how it operates and how to maintain it. This the city came to an end.
The science of language includes sounds( phonations) phonemes, morphology(words)syntax, semantics, structures, literal and lastly pragmatic( contextual meaning). Language in its structure can have fractal meanings, with double, triple or more entendres ( meanings) given the same syntax, semantics structures, sounds, etc. Language is regarded as a representation of information. Words are not only sounds but transmit meaning. Transmission of meaning is a function of intent. Sounds and words can have meaninglessness by intent but when there is meaning there is necessarily intent. Sounds transmit action. Sounds are measured as frequencies and vibrations. Sounds and vibrations can act on reality. Chladni plates, cymascopes, oscilloscopes, etc are means of demonstrating the actionable properties of sound. Sounds can have particular shapes and patterns. These shapes and patterns are determined by the substances being acted upon as well as the substance acting. Water is a classic example of such actings visualized in cymascopes and oscilloscopes. Furthermore water not only can be acted upon by sound but water also then produces sound. Multiple sources of frequencies, vibration can simultaneously act on water. Oceans are acted on by wind, earth crust ( earthquakes and volcanoes, tectonic plates and subsurface dynamics) , gravity and electromagnetic fields, etc. Water crashing on a beach creates sounds as well as patterns in sand or rock. Sounds as spoken can have structural topology. This topology itself has transmitting effects( these effects can have effects into and beyond the structure directly acted on.. ocean waves caused by earthquakes can transmit patterns on land, sand and rocks not acted on directly by the earthquake, etc.).
That’s interesting information. Thanks for that! But what is the purpose of this comment? Is there a reason why you commented all this? Does it somehow relate to the discussion in the video?
2:45 so the increase in the lack of belief in God will lead to a DECREASE in moral behavior? So if we took a historical sample of religious adherence we'll see that trend, right?
Yes lol. Abortion, fornication, divorce, adultery have all skyrocketed as people apostatize from Christianity and that’s like 1-2 generations. The whole system will collapse and other kinds of murder, corruption, theft etc will skyrocket. The principle has been set and will come to completion
It’s quite obvious. Look at the immorality that has dramatically increased since we’ve become more atheist. It has caused a perpetual downfall in western society.
I'd argue morals can be there with or without God; BUT - God helps you keep to morality, whereas a society without God distorts morality until it outright becomes evil. After all, sins are acts of erring away from God, sins proliferate the further away from God a society gets.
@ what you described is not morality at all hence the inevitable collapse of this behavior system. It is nothing more than the perception of God like behavior under the guise of morality.
The question of whether morality can exist without god is tied to our understanding of existence itself. Some believe that morality relies on God’s existence, as a higher power is seen as the source of moral standards. However, others argue that morality can exist independently of God, based on human reason, societal norms, and the need for cooperation. In this view, morality isn’t about obeying a divine command but about what helps humans live together harmoniously and ethically. Ultimately, whether morality needs God depends on how one defines moral principles and where they believe they come from.
Imagine you find yourself experiencing a place that feels real, that you believe is beyond witness to anyone but yourself, that the things you do there will never, and could never come to light, and that they effect nobody. In that circumstance, nothing but God will be between you and the object of your desire when are faced with scarcity. If you do not believe in God, you will have no reason not to commit an act of evil in those circumstances. You will feel his nudge, and ignore it. It is your place, after all, and there is no God. There is no answer to 'why not' except, because God is your witness, and your judge. God speaks to us just as softly in his house as he speaks here, and no human being can deny to God that he made his presense felt inside you. Jimminy was only a cricket. If you can't hear him here, you won't hear him there, and you will be banished. There is much more to God than the subtle nudge of conscince. If lucifer is destined to 1000 years in the pits of hell, is God not all forgiving? Is there is no way back for him, how many souls feel they are beyond redeeming in the eyes of God, if Lucerfer's fate is written and sealed? God is good, God is all forgiving, but it is conditional. If lucifer is destined for hell, do we not have free will? We do. If Lucifer confessed what he did in heaven to have him banished, if he ruined his Earthly life to redeem himself in the eyes of God, could he be redeemed? There is no earthly reason he would confess what he did. Nobody on Earth would ever know, but for his testimony. He knows God was his witness. He would have no reason to come forward, and ruin his Earthly life and reputation, but to put the fear of God in men. Men need to fear God, now more than ever. He stole the answers from the teacher's desk. He broke into God's house, but God left the door unlocked. He was caught in the act. He heard the voice of God. The story goes that Jesus served God with death. He must serve God with his life, for his entire life. It is his sentence, but he still gets to choose it. He knows he can serve it here or serve it in God's classroom. The teachers in Gods school are strict, and deal out pain and punishment, death and agony, precisely to teach you what you acted like you did not know here on Earth. God is good. The story of Jesus is ultimately the reason he is moved to come forward. Maybe he wants to out-suffer Jesus. Maybe he has a chip on his shoulder. Maybe he is ready to go home.
Can you prove that if there is a god he himself is moral. Is there a coherent argument too be made for a god that allows suffering and pain on his own creations. Is god moral? Why all pain and suffering well expecting us to believe in him with little to no interaction just left on our own to figure it out. My question to you is why is god a moral being?
The problem of evil is based on our limited understanding of God's nature. God doesn't have to fit our ideas of what omnipotence and benevolence should look like. In Christianity, the Bible shows that God opposes evil and wants to bring order, but He can't just erase evil with a snap of His fingers. His way of dealing with evil may seem morally questionable to us. According to Christians, god isn't just a perfect, abstract being. Like humans, He is complex and not simply an idealized version of power and goodness. However, it's not whether why he allowed evil or not. The real question is, is god evil? He can't be good because he doesn't give absolute free will, and he interferes with other choices that contradict free will because it's not defined, so why praise a god that isn't good to you?
It would not be the same without god thats true, but it would be stupid to suggest that its an all or nothing. The driving force behind the “ought” of an action is the incentive for the actor to do it or avoid it. This still clearly exists in our reality even though theres no heaven/hell, or an omniscient being watching us. People generally dont want live in a world where awful things are allowed, and there are other disincentives to do things that are commonly deemed “wrong”, like guilt, social isolation, imprisonment, etc.
Now then consider the fractal nature of language and the fractal nature of sou The science of language includes sounds( phonations) phonemes, morphology(words)syntax, semantics, structures, literal and lastly pragmatic( contextual meaning). Language in its structure can have fractal meanings, with double, triple or more entendres ( meanings) given the same syntax, semantics structures, sounds, etc. Language is regarded as a representation of information. Words are not only sounds but transmit meaning. Transmission of meaning is a function of intent. Sounds and words can have meaninglessness by intent but when there is meaning there is necessarily intent. Sounds transmit action. Sounds are measured as frequencies and vibrations. Sounds and vibrations can act on reality. Chladni plates, cymascopes, oscilloscopes, etc are means of demonstrating the actionable properties of sound. Sounds can have particular shapes and patterns. These shapes and patterns are determined by the substances being acted upon as well as the substance acting. Water is a classic example of such actings visualized in cymascopes and oscilloscopes. Furthermore water not only can be acted upon by sound but water also then produces sound. Multiple sources of frequencies, vibration can simultaneously act on water. Oceans are acted on by wind, earth crust ( earthquakes and volcanoes, tectonic plates and subsurface dynamics) , gravity and electromagnetic fields, etc. Water crashing on a beach creates sounds as well as patterns in sand or rock. Sounds as spoken can have structural topology. This topology itself has transmitting effects( these effects can have effects into and beyond the structure directly acted on.. ocean waves caused by earthquakes can transmit patterns on land, sand and rocks not acted on directly by the earthquake, etc.). nd. If sound is an operative of words and therefore language then such sounds can transmit intent by their meaning. Given the above consider:
Without God morality would be subjective because by default it will come from humanity and the implications of that would be disturbing because if the laws of morality can changed then any horrible thing justified by reason can be done but If morality is objective meaning unchangeable given by God would imply restrictions from any individual doing evil.
You assume that if morality is subjective, it would inevitably lead to justifications for harmful actions, but this perspective overlooks the complexity of how subjective morality can work in practice. Morality is already, to a large extent, subjective because it is influenced by personal, cultural, and societal factors. Different cultures have different moral codes, and individuals within those cultures may hold varying views on what is right or wrong. It was always more subjective rather than objective. In a world where morality is subjective, the potential for justifying harmful actions still exists, but people can use reason, growth, and empathy to build consensus on what is considered immoral. While this makes morality more flexible, it doesn't mean it is free from any moral standards; it simply means these standards can be debated and revised. You are saying that objective morality (imposed by god) is the only way to prevent moral wrongs, which ignores the growing recognition that moral values can be determined through human reasoning and the collective good. Far from leading to chaos, subjective morality can foster ongoing reflection and growth in ethical thinking.
Human morality is an emergent property of natural law. God is always in the shadows, even when we convince ourselves morality stands on its own. The echoes of divine archetypes persist, shaping our sense of right and wrong whether we acknowledge it or not.
Did not all tribes of Isreal suffer damage from straying away from the Word of God? Straying away from what the Bible says and not letting that be the reference is damaging. Missing details do cause hurt and things getting damaged. Remove not the Ancient Landmarks that the Father’s have set. 5:18 Ignorance and omission causes damage.
Many people argue that, without God, morality becomes subjective based on individual or cultural beliefs that can change over time. Belief in God provides an unchanging, universal foundation for what is right and wrong. Christian believes that god is the ultimate source of objective morality. Under this perspective, morality is objective because it is rooted in God’s unchanging nature. But whether believing in god for objective morality would depend on who he is. Since Christians say that god is the ultimate source of objective morality. Under this perspective, morality is objective because it is rooted in god’s unchanging nature. Now, whether god is good or evil that you have to find out both subjectively and objectively
Why you dicuss a one small aspect while you can proceed dicussing a variety of things,,,it is an interesting videos,,and hoping the Bishop is well and will make to the coming show
Good and bad come from somewhere just like technologies did not appear from out of thin air something immortal that has been around for ages taught people technology something that was born perfect and full of knowledge of life.
Just look at what is happening now. There is this pervasive lack of meaning in people's lives..people are so freaking depressed and very anxious at the same time (i.e. lack of an ideal). It's a recipe for an existential crisis (a.k.a. dark night of the soul) 🤔🙃. On the outside it looks really bleak but on the spiritual level, this is actually a good thing. Why did I say that? Because it leads people to look up...to look for an ideal. A way to look at something higher than themselves. That is my definition of GOD in an ultimate sense, really. Morality without and IDEAL doesn't make sense. It might worked for a short time but is not sustainable in the long term.
Depression & anxiety are less of a lack of an ideal & more of a dietary issue, a health issue. Our food is highly processed, riddled with chemicals that play with our hormones & chemistry. People are malnourished because they don’t eat the right things, they don’t take care of themselves. Nutritional deficiencies, and hormone imbalances can cause change in perception, sensory input, cognition, temperament, etc.. Anthropology has shown us to be hyper carnivores from stable isotope testing. Plants have defense chemicals that destroy our intestinal wall over time leading to autoimmune immunity, and inflammatory conditions of all kinds, and sugar consumption leads to diabetes that causes many co-morbidities i.e. atherosclerosis, Alzheimer’s, obesity, etc.. What you say amounts to only a fraction of what truly causes depression, and anxiety. Even malaise, and apathy. Lack of determination, sex drive, etc..
In the beginning was the word( a word as a form of expression of meaning and intention) and the word was with God, and the word was God( when you speak your words are you and the spirit of your intentions and so then the words, sounds of the words having meaning by God’s intention are transmitted information). The same ( word) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him( the word of God as God); and without him was not anything made that was made( all things then are made by the word, sound, frequency, vibration, as language , as information transmission, as God/ I am that I am, as in to be to be, God as existence itself, being as the primary category of existence, that being spoke into existence all other being/ being the creator of all other being is not the same as being that other being ( not a oneness of all things .. not a Buddhist proposition). In him( the word as God, in the word was life/ life is spoken into existence) was life; and the life was the light of men( life as light, in the word was life which was light/ light is the fundamental being ( object as wave particle… as a something which exists… which has structure and is a transmitter of information/ light as a particle, as spherical, an object with a surface which surfaces can carry-transmit information).
Our God indeed is a covenant keeping God. Has he said a thing and not perform it? I watch how things unfold in my life, from penury to $56,000 every three months and I can only praise him and trust him more. Hallelujah
Please discuss Wielenberg’s godless normative )platonic) realism. And there are other frameworks. That said, yes, classical theism (and even neoclassical a la Josh Rasmussen 2019) would entail moral realism, granted.
They are not debating god. They are addressing the mind and how it is oriented towards the higher goals. This is how to discuss god. The mind employs a set of a’ priori modes to systemically align and thus, synthesise with the order and symmetry of things. Adding is an obvious mode to most. You can’t add up what I am about to relay without it. We can’t add up the variables of evolution without it. It’s not just there for adding up the pennies in your purse. Categorisation is another mode. We categorically define the world we are of. I categorise adding as a mode of thought. We move in and out of categories continuously. Identification is another mode. Identify the structure of the cell. Identify our root on the evolutionary ladder. Identify categorisation as a mode. We can’t seem to be able to identify our own nature as human in a fixed way. Just can’t ground the predicate. Configuration is another mode. When things don’t figure, it’s because the mind hasn’t combined with the correct configuration. Unification is another mode. To unify what we are searching for. To add it up and unify it. There are many more modes. Considered together as a constellation set; as a concatenation of modes, the mind can be seen as a systemic tool. A tool prior to ego and experience. A tool for systemising and synthesising its place in the order of things as I said. You are employing them right now as you engage with me. This set is in everyone. It is a universal set and thought is impossible without it. Language by extension is impossible without it. From a phenomenological perspective, this set is what we are until we know more. It is this set that allows us to abstract and see that appearances are not what things are. It is this set that allows us to see that the body has no fixed predicate so it is a loose idea at best. In essence, we are a set of systemic modes floating in an ocean of dissipating variables and until we can say more we are that. This set is responsible for all knowledge structures. Science and philosophy are impossible without the systemic lens/eye. Kant employed them to ground his categories. Einstein employed them to ground his perspective and so forth. One ring to rule them all. One eye to systemise it all. This is the essence of God. We are made in gods image means the systemic eye is the god of eye and its impress is within.
Morality cannot exist without the presence of God. The core of morality relies on the intrinsic value of human life, which becomes meaningless if humans are not seen as valuable. Our worth doesn't simply come from being human; it stems from being created in God's image as His chosen representatives on earth.
"Can you do God's will without believing in God?!" Seems so silly to me... There is no believing. Is the sky and Earth a joke to you? Do they not exist?
The truth, but as the teacher would say: Show your work! Morality cannot exist without CHRIST specifically (not any of the made-up gods) because an unmoored morality swings at the whims of whatever may be considered politically correct, and what is PC is decided by whatever benefits the powerful. Jesus, on the other hand, provides objective morality by virtue of being the primary authority above all others.
What if morality already exists within each of us without any sort of system. I disagree with the idea that morality is taught I actually think as someone who grew up with a single quite unstable mother that morality actually comes from within and whatever it is that people call god. Is actually an evolutionary believe system that is inherit. To everyone. But heaving something like a bible that outlines those believes is incredibly useful in a world where people have forgotten how to listen to their most inner voice.
@@nathaniel5261 Unless you don't considered yourself as a human being....then there is no "we" 😅 The fact that we are able to contemplate the very fact of our own existence makes us eat from that tree, you see... So, is the story real, or not?! For me, it's ultra real!!!! 😅😅😅
Can Morality Exist Without Belief in God? IF morality cannot exist without Belief in God, then Morality & God WOULD BE synonymous. At least implicatively...they are not.
Morality is synonym for Morals. And I have to say, without God, being specific here, without Yahweh, because all these people dance around the word God. God to Europeans can be human figures, this is why all their Greek gods like Zeus are sculpted in a form of a man, if it’s a man’s body, it has weakness and cravings, not to mention, who created the stars and heavens, did Zeus claim to? No, thence he is not what we call God, which God to us is creator of the universe. That’s Yahweh, some etymological names like Jahova, Allah, Elohim and all that passed over to different languages. We see the number one beneficial things of the Jews, Christian’s and Muslims of the pre-modern era, 1,000 years and on, is the congregations, the churches, the mosques, the synagogues, these places are put up so their is consensus, two buildings for instance, one by the Greeks and Roman’s like Aristotle and Socrates, Marcus Aurelius they set up amphitheaters, to discourse on politics we know as democracy, the other a mosque, instead of just consulting on a philosophical level, theology, the study and coming close to the creators, is what the Jews patented. This is why they excelled in everything, the Roman’s compared to the Jews is of no contest, the Roman’s were probably the most unethical, inhumane, sadistic and cruel people to walk the earth. They didn’t have laws of justice, they had laws for lucrative gain. Moses was given laws far before the Roman’s even hit the scene, and by far it’s still the most used law universally, not just of their time, but our time and still far into the future as well. Gods law is just, all the prophets tested it, and so did our predecessors in the passed 500 years, likewise even the last century, entertainers like Elvis Presley, Bob Marley, Michael Jackson, and Willie Nelson were all gospel singers and they spread the Bible ten fold, which shows merit of the morality in what to do and what not to do. Scientist like Einstein, Nikola, Newton all have memoirs on how they read the Bible weekly and got all their advances from. Same with businessmen, Jim rhon, John D Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, these are all multi millionaires and billionaires, and they profess the importance of the morality that comes from God. As for the nay sayers, let them be, don’t even give them rent in your mind, we have too much things to employ than worrying about their empty minds or in their case, filled to the brim. There were believers in their eras that crossed over, and their was unbelievers in their era that died off, empty and baron. Like Solomon said, what has happened before will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun. Thence their will be believers now in abundance who follow the statutes of God, and there will be non-believers now as well, who just wanna argue to argue, be idiots and know it alls. Good luck to them, we already know how that’s gonna end. 😂 Fuck em, keep the statutes and commandments given in the Torah, Tanakh, Gospels and even the Quran. And you will be given life and peace.
A person who is moral for the sake of christ is reall different form others who are moral without Christ,for me its like a teacher who teaches because of passion and another who teaches because thats the only job available, both might work hard but the students note the difference Thank you very much Jordan Peterson and your clue,one day i will be like you
I grew up goign to catholic school. I do not practise religion nor did my parents. That doesnt mean i dont have a set of morals. Big fan of Christians but get off your high horse.
My read is morality is not taught but is within. The ‘Golden Rule’ is a species derived concept that we pieced together over centuries knowing that treating others as ourselves is the only way for species survival against difficult odds. Our entire social system is based on reciprocity. No one teaches this but most behave as this is the best means forward. Having researched many expert publications, I am left with the belief that this is our DNA acting as our inner driver. The concept of God came long afterwards as we began to move from tribes to cities and extended trading of goods and services with larger groups of individuals. Fairness in the exchange process became a key part of the success of some when others took advantage. It is in our DNA for most of us to treat others as ourselves. The exceptions are the conmen and conwomen who once known few will give them a second chance to swindle. Most children know what is fair well before they understand the concept of a higher authority.
Morality doesn't seem to exist with God. This is being demonstrated on many fronts around the world by those lacking morality acting in the name of their God. God, Messiah, Elohim, Allah, etc. will make the final judgment and most of us will be found wanting. May we all find our morality and experience the morality of others.
That's not what's being said. We believe morality exists in our conscience whether we believe there is a creator/god or not. What's being said is that morality only exists objectively because there is one. Because morality comes from Him directly. So no, without God, we couldn't have morality at all, it would just be some arbitrary opinion, and the fact that we can tell morality is objective is partly proof that God exists.
@@DoubleOhSilver I dont actually think morality is objective. What is the most good way to live for 1 person might go against the most good path for someone else. i do believe we all have a sense of what is moral its given to us through millenia of evolution. there are powers present that we do not yet understand I just think those powers are forces of nature not an individual inteligence. though the way to interact with those forces of nature is very nicely perscribed in the bible. I think you dont need a god or a bible to follow that path all you need to do is silence your mind and listen.
@@happyappy19931 so what is god? Why a he? Why does time not simply exist for the sake of it existing. Why does it need to have been created? Time is a construct created by people. In that sense our ability to think created time if you call that ability god, then yes god created time.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not( this is a necessary understanding, darkness is not light and darkness is not a transmitter of information by structure in the way that light is a transmitter of information… therefore darkness does not comprehend light information). …And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Understanding this now consider: In the beginning ( or when, in the beginning) God created the Heaven ( singular) and earth( what are the ancient Hebrew words for black holes, galaxies, dust clouds… the universe?/ these words did not specifically exist but given the fractal nature of words and language it can be, and is understood to be, that “the Heaven and earth “ has fractal meaning in that it represents the concept of the universe as a whole and that at the beginning the conditions were set by which the earth was created). And the earth was without form, and void( again as fractal meaning the earth was set in its place even at the creation before there was a universe per se/ given the fractal nature of language ( as I will consider throughout) when earth is presented in this manner it can be understood as meaning both the earth itself and the universe because by necessity the earth is part of the universe/ was without form = without morphology, shape, etc. and void… was actually not of physical substance… again fractal read is that both the earth was of no physical substance nor was the universe, and the earth as well as the universe was without shape, morphology = form) . Was without form and void is a great description of what occurs before a lightning strike. The pattern which the lightning strikes is set up by the pre lightning strike “void” pattern. And darkness was upon the face of the deep ( recall that darkness is without understanding… without understanding if the light because light transmits information via structure, topology. What is the “face of the deep”? Does deepness have a face? What is a face? A face is a structure, a topology, a morphology. But herein that structure, morphology was dark, which is the absence of light. Yet there was a face of the deep… a structure of the universe, nay but a structure into which the universe could expand into with light which could and would travel and transmit information from God as the word which was before creation but was the creator as the word with the creator God( to be to be.. the essence of existence)). And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters( again fractal read, the face if the water has been interpreted as the surface of the ocean but the fractal reading is the water is a category as well as a type of substance. Here we have introduced the spirit of God. The spirit is like the wind moving to and fro whether you know not where it blows… so the spirit of God is the transmission of the word as in frequency, energy and vibration… acting on liquid/ plasma matter-energy. Fractal as acting upon h2O as well as molten metal, lava the earth as well as the universe… God in this chapter of Genesis has compacted information which was interpreted in literal terms as a particular meaning framed within a paradigm and that paradigm projected that interpretation through time without the understanding of a present paradigm but because of the fractal nature of language it represents truth through both interpretations within those disparate paradigms ( genius supreme). Recall the highest order of language is not literal but pragmatic. In this function of pragmatic interpretation a fractal nature as well as a categorical interpretation lends to understanding as to be scientifically precise. / acting on liquid the flow of information and energy moving on the face= morphology, shape… shaped the universe and necessarily the earth and liquid of earth… again recall that sound as waves can impart action through other on other things( earthquakes->water-> land) as such the liquid forms structures, patterns on which the next wave can function… words with sentences, paragraphs, storylines, books… information, progressions of information, iterations of information). So then before there was light the spirit of God acting on plasma/liquid energy flows( spirit winds) generated the structure into which light and subsequently life could flow and grow as iterations. And God said( the word as information, iterated onto/into the structure of the plasma/liquid energy created by the movement of the spirit of God), Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light( observer perspective/action/quantum effects), that it was good( what is good, goodness, evil, evilness? Here the fractal meaning is philosophical as in John 1: 9-11, That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came into his own, and his own received him not. ( darkness cannot comprehend light)): And God divided the light from the darkness ( not separated but divided them. Could this possibly mean? We understand the universe to be expanding and expanding at a particular rate, the cosmological constant. The rate at which the universe is expanding is faster than the speed of light. What is faster than the speed of light? The speed of dark is faster than the speed of light. So then consider that by God dividing the light from the dark we consider 1/137 as that division of light from dark.) . And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ( Here we are amazed at the reality of fractal and pragmatic functions of language. Neither the Sun nor the Moon have yet been created, so then what is this supposed to mean Day and night and evening and morning? If no where else but here it is understood that there is pragmatic and fractal meaning herein. Thus we move into a compaction of information understood in terms of categories. ) The next two “day”’s are the creation of Heaven and earth again (?) I will not give the fractal interpretation here but understand that it is so precise in its science that I do not feel compelled to give such information. Be that as it may the categories remaining are sufficient in fractal interpretation as to be remarkable and like the 5th chapter of genesis have meaning beyond literal interpretation. The end of the first chapter of genesis is key to understanding that the text is fractal. The image in which you are made is the lock that opens the fractal nature of the text.
Interesting idea. I think you can be moral without God. At least according to the laws of the land. You can be good in the eyes of other people but by Gods laws? That's a different story.
I'm 51yrs old. $40,000 weekly and *I'm retired, this video have inspired me greatly in many ways that I remember my past of how I struggled with many things in life to be where I am today!!!!* ❤️
Same here waking up every 14th of each month to 210,000 dollars it's a blessing to l and my family... I can now retire knowing that I have a steady income❤️Big gratitude to Maria Frances Hanlon
its not 'god' its belief in divine justice and afterlife - that sinners will inevitably get punished and righteous rewarded, which motivates people, but morality itself comes from coexisting and its genetic - ie psychopaths will never be moral
Can Morality Exist Without God? Does Morality exist? Yes. Does God exist? If its the God of the Bible with the traditional Hermeneutics, no by logical explosion. Therefore, morality MUST exist without that which does not exist, which is the Christian God.
@@christianbrown7621 How morality "began" is most likely like how morality would begin again if you and I were dropped in a remote island...You are already excluding the possibility that we developed morality through natural selection over millennia which makes for a fruitless discussion...is it not obvious to you that any two or more agents interacting require some kind of protocol? If apes can't do it, why shouldn't we be able to without, effectively, Cosmic Magic by God? What does that even explain for us?
@Ocean_Jack That is very likely true, but if a woman organized a similar discussion and invited only a large group of women and no men, I would be disappointed in the woman. After all, this is an important question and one that is equally important to both sexes.
Our idea of morality comes from religion. A religion that teaches different values will have a different idea of what is moral. The Aztecs believed it was morally correct to conduct human sacrifice, that was ethical in their belief system. We take a lot of morality as self evident, of course it's wrong to kill, to steal, to lie, etc, but there are religions and therefore entire cultures around the world that don't hold those values. The extreme proliferation of Christianity in particular, but Abrahamic religions in general, have left us with a huge portion of the world that has fairly consistent morals and that's tricked a lot of people into thinking that it's somehow just innate. In spite of the fact that the world is full of violence and every kid needs to be taught at some point not to hit other kids, we are ignorant enough to not realize that our moral system does come from something. Without it, who knows how long it will take, but I can't see any other outcome than mayhem. These people don't know history, they don't have an understanding of the wider world and that it's not like it is here everywhere.
I’m a gnostic but I wasn’t always and morality has been central to me since I was a child. I grew up in a fully non religious family and society (Western Australia). Some argue that morality originates from an inherent, historical concept of God, suggesting that even secular ethics ultimately trace back to divine authority embedded in human culture. However, this claim can be refuted by examining morality’s foundations in human nature and reason, which predate and operate independently of any specific religious framework. Evolutionary biology shows that traits like empathy and fairness are universal, rooted in the need for survival and social cohesion, not contingent upon religious belief. Furthermore, diverse cultures worldwide developed moral systems that function effectively without shared concepts of God, as seen in Confucianism or Buddhism. Rational philosophical systems, such as Kant’s categorical imperative or utilitarianism, provide logically consistent frameworks for ethical behavior without appealing to divine origins. While the concept of God has influenced the moral norms of many societies, the ability to reason, empathize, and cooperate is an intrinsic part of humanity, demonstrating that morality can arise from secular and naturalistic principles rather than being inherently tied to theological origins.
The question is nonsensical. It's like asking, "How heavy is yellow?" Linguistically correct but rationally nonsensical. A far, far better question would be, "Why does not a belief in God preclude believers from doing evil?" The examples of fervent believers committing all sorts of atrocities is beyond counting. SS guards had God Is With Us (in German) on their belt buckles. If you believe you have a God on your side, you can excuse any atrocity.
That was just part of the uniform which dates back to the weimar republic, SS officers didn't put or decide to put that on their belt buckles . It's like saying, How can drug dealers possibly do bad things when they are using dollar bills with "in God we trust" written on the front .
Imagine citing Plato for this, maybe go back to the timaeus. He answers the question brought up there with divine simplicity- God (the form of the Good) is identical to morality, it emanates it in the way it does the fundamental laws of reality which structure the universe. Trying to bring up Plato to support atheism means you cannot have read Plato.
@@KopperNeoman It doesn't require creation, merely observation. If we can observe natural law we can follow it. But what makes it natural is its existence regardless of input from a creator agent.
@@nathaniel5261Natural Law encompasses practical ethics. But yes, it is a broader concept. However, it is IMPOSSIBLE to derive ethics from anything else but Natural Law.
The question is a metaethics question. Are there any metaethicists on the panel? No. Is the question even remotely well-handled by the panelists? No. I'm stunned.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
The question is whether morality is justifiable without a God. It annoys me how much people miss the centrality of that in this debate. Nobody denies that an atheist can adhere to the social/ moral norms of their time and place. It is whether, being a materialist, you can coherently justify those norms as objectively true and rationally compelling. This is not "can atheists adhere to normal morality" it is "is morality a coherent concept under atheism". Please stop missing the point on this.
Probably, but we didn't just all of a sudden have the religious beliefs. They evolved over time. Certainly in an atheist world morality would develop over time as well.
@@natethegr8230 The difference being that the morality will just suit the powerful, whereas Christians waged war on slavery at immense personal cost to rich and poor alike because Christ told us to do it. So great was our fervour that we were thought tyrants by men like Jefferson over it.
Morality already exist within everyone no matter what believe they represent . You don't NEED a believe system to be moral for everyone already is inherently. Almost everyone is just in denial of their most inner voice and refuses to listen to it because of the stresses created by the world which makes a believe system necessary for those who don't know how to listen to that voice.
@@natethegr8230On the contrary, there's never beena purely Atheist society that existed in ancient history. Religion and belief systems were deeply embedded in the fabric of ancient human life, serving as a cornerstone for identity, governance, and societal structure. One can argue for an Atheist society to eventually develop a sense of morality they'd have to adopt a more theistic viewpoint .
@@KopperNeomanCHRISTIANS DID NOT OPPOSE SLAVERY DONT MAKE ME LAUGH😂😂😂😂😂
I think one of the strongest arguments against secular morality is that it's inevitably subjective. Without being able to appeal to a set of religious tenets, what one person considers moral is relative to his/her individual judgement. It lacks a uniting principle of codification, unlike scripture.
Eloquently "spoken", @Razear♠
You could postulate that scripture is collectively adhered, but also "just" a set of arbitrarily adopted beliefs among other sets (i.e. other religions or moral systems). In Maps of Meaning (book and lectures), though, Peterson talks about how a joint agreement on fundamental principles is necessary to establish predictability. The difficult task comes from ordering belief systems.
It’s all subjective for religious people as well, since the scriptures were written by people.
Great dialogue. Mainly because Jordan isn’t interrupting every time his neurons fire 😅
He knows when to talk
I’m a long time Peterson supporter. Not much in recent years. In part due to how he bulldozers over other speakers by course.
@@altnarrative He’s gotten very egotistical in his righteousness. I agree with some of his beliefs but his insistence that delusion - religion - is real, ‘god’ is real, when jp is supposed to be a man of science, based on *evidence,* totally turned me off of him. He should keep his crazy where it belongs - at home and in church. We don’t come to hear about insanity from him, we come to hear his viewpoint regarding his chosen profession. He losing his intelligent fans and will be left with nothing but religious crazies. I hoped for better than this for him.
Believing in God oriented me in the right direction for morality and more
I listen to my most deep intuition to orient myself which I do through meditation. I don't need a to give it the name god to understand that it is of the utmost importance to listen.
I love how everyone in the comments knows without a shadow of a doubt that what they believe is a fact.
Then there are those of us that are science based - something jp once insisted he was - that prefer to wait for empirical evidence before we cast our belief behind something. Jp left that rational space some time ago.
@@kalabakonbitts1362empirical evidence for morality??
@kalabakonbitts1362 you have belief/faith that others don't/won't lie to you and are honest about such empirical evidence
Yet this very comment assumes belief that you are right that everyone is wrong.
@ Empirical evidence of the existence of a creator. I’d settle for empirical evidence jesus ever existed, but as he is a product of the early church co-opting pagan ritual to bring in followers/$$$$$$, I doubt such evidence will ever be sourced.
This is atheism’s newest quest to prove… but the answer logically and spiritually is a resounding and repetitive no
And to continue this, ancient civilizations knew this and created “gods” to fit their morality. End point; It comes from God, but humanity needs it “gods” if they don’t want to accept the one true living God and Creator, Jesus Christ.
I know
slow it shows
the life inside my head
forever grows
one moment at a time
Where is Bishop Barron? His insight is needed here.
Indeed
I love JBP, (even if saying God exists is complicated)
I mean 'belief in God'
Im reminded of that movie, "City of Amber." Hundreds of years before, the forefathers created a amazing mechanical works to keep the city functioning. But over time, the descendants forgot how it operates and how to maintain it. This the city came to an end.
This clip seems more potent than the others. Lots of new thoughts for me.
The world has morality, and the Lord has a way. It is regression vs direction.
The science of language includes sounds( phonations) phonemes, morphology(words)syntax, semantics, structures, literal and lastly pragmatic( contextual meaning). Language in its structure can have fractal meanings, with double, triple or more entendres ( meanings) given the same syntax, semantics structures, sounds, etc. Language is regarded as a representation of information. Words are not only sounds but transmit meaning. Transmission of meaning is a function of intent. Sounds and words can have meaninglessness by intent but when there is meaning there is necessarily intent. Sounds transmit action. Sounds are measured as frequencies and vibrations. Sounds and vibrations can act on reality. Chladni plates, cymascopes, oscilloscopes, etc are means of demonstrating the actionable properties of sound. Sounds can have particular shapes and patterns. These shapes and patterns are determined by the substances being acted upon as well as the substance acting. Water is a classic example of such actings visualized in cymascopes and oscilloscopes. Furthermore water not only can be acted upon by sound but water also then produces sound. Multiple sources of frequencies, vibration can simultaneously act on water. Oceans are acted on by wind, earth crust ( earthquakes and volcanoes, tectonic plates and subsurface dynamics) , gravity and electromagnetic fields, etc.
Water crashing on a beach creates sounds as well as patterns in sand or rock.
Sounds as spoken can have structural topology. This topology itself has transmitting effects( these effects can have effects into and beyond the structure directly acted on.. ocean waves caused by earthquakes can transmit patterns on land, sand and rocks not acted on directly by the earthquake, etc.).
That’s interesting information. Thanks for that! But what is the purpose of this comment? Is there a reason why you commented all this? Does it somehow relate to the discussion in the video?
@ in the beginning was the word
2:45 so the increase in the lack of belief in God will lead to a DECREASE in moral behavior? So if we took a historical sample of religious adherence we'll see that trend, right?
Yes lol. Abortion, fornication, divorce, adultery have all skyrocketed as people apostatize from Christianity and that’s like 1-2 generations. The whole system will collapse and other kinds of murder, corruption, theft etc will skyrocket. The principle has been set and will come to completion
CHRISTIAN adherence. Using other religions such as Islam will skew the results because those faiths are false.
It’s quite obvious. Look at the immorality that has dramatically increased since we’ve become more atheist. It has caused a perpetual downfall in western society.
I hope Dennis Prager is ok. He's had a rough year.
No morality without God.
I'd argue morals can be there with or without God; BUT - God helps you keep to morality, whereas a society without God distorts morality until it outright becomes evil. After all, sins are acts of erring away from God, sins proliferate the further away from God a society gets.
@ and I’d argue that without God, we default to survival mechanisms. Goodness is taught survival is instinctual.
@ what you described is not morality at all hence the inevitable collapse of this behavior system. It is nothing more than the perception of God like behavior under the guise of morality.
No anything without God.
@ RIGHT!
This is the Special Olympics of Verbal Gymnastics. Amazing performances from all!!
I miss Bishop Barron
The ultimate proof of your faith delivered is the resurrection. As Christ said...blessed are those who believe without seeing
Amen
Without God there can be no objective moral standard. Without God, there is only your relative, subjective opinion and nothing else.
"we have bishop Barron at home"
The question of whether morality can exist without god is tied to our understanding of existence itself. Some believe that morality relies on God’s existence, as a higher power is seen as the source of moral standards. However, others argue that morality can exist independently of God, based on human reason, societal norms, and the need for cooperation. In this view, morality isn’t about obeying a divine command but about what helps humans live together harmoniously and ethically. Ultimately, whether morality needs God depends on how one defines moral principles and where they believe they come from.
Imagine you find yourself experiencing a place that feels real, that you believe is beyond witness to anyone but yourself, that the things you do there will never, and could never come to light, and that they effect nobody. In that circumstance, nothing but God will be between you and the object of your desire when are faced with scarcity. If you do not believe in God, you will have no reason not to commit an act of evil in those circumstances. You will feel his nudge, and ignore it. It is your place, after all, and there is no God. There is no answer to 'why not' except, because God is your witness, and your judge. God speaks to us just as softly in his house as he speaks here, and no human being can deny to God that he made his presense felt inside you. Jimminy was only a cricket. If you can't hear him here, you won't hear him there, and you will be banished. There is much more to God than the subtle nudge of conscince.
If lucifer is destined to 1000 years in the pits of hell, is God not all forgiving? Is there is no way back for him, how many souls feel they are beyond redeeming in the eyes of God, if Lucerfer's fate is written and sealed? God is good, God is all forgiving, but it is conditional. If lucifer is destined for hell, do we not have free will? We do. If Lucifer confessed what he did in heaven to have him banished, if he ruined his Earthly life to redeem himself in the eyes of God, could he be redeemed? There is no earthly reason he would confess what he did. Nobody on Earth would ever know, but for his testimony. He knows God was his witness. He would have no reason to come forward, and ruin his Earthly life and reputation, but to put the fear of God in men. Men need to fear God, now more than ever.
He stole the answers from the teacher's desk. He broke into God's house, but God left the door unlocked. He was caught in the act. He heard the voice of God. The story goes that Jesus served God with death. He must serve God with his life, for his entire life. It is his sentence, but he still gets to choose it. He knows he can serve it here or serve it in God's classroom. The teachers in Gods school are strict, and deal out pain and punishment, death and agony, precisely to teach you what you acted like you did not know here on Earth. God is good. The story of Jesus is ultimately the reason he is moved to come forward. Maybe he wants to out-suffer Jesus. Maybe he has a chip on his shoulder. Maybe he is ready to go home.
Can you prove that if there is a god he himself is moral. Is there a coherent argument too be made for a god that allows suffering and pain on his own creations. Is god moral? Why all pain and suffering well expecting us to believe in him with little to no interaction just left on our own to figure it out. My question to you is why is god a moral being?
The problem of evil is based on our limited understanding of God's nature. God doesn't have to fit our ideas of what omnipotence and benevolence should look like. In Christianity, the Bible shows that God opposes evil and wants to bring order, but He can't just erase evil with a snap of His fingers. His way of dealing with evil may seem morally questionable to us. According to Christians, god isn't just a perfect, abstract being. Like humans, He is complex and not simply an idealized version of power and goodness.
However, it's not whether why he allowed evil or not. The real question is, is god evil? He can't be good because he doesn't give absolute free will, and he interferes with other choices that contradict free will because it's not defined, so why praise a god that isn't good to you?
It would not be the same without god thats true, but it would be stupid to suggest that its an all or nothing.
The driving force behind the “ought” of an action is the incentive for the actor to do it or avoid it. This still clearly exists in our reality even though theres no heaven/hell, or an omniscient being watching us.
People generally dont want live in a world where awful things are allowed, and there are other disincentives to do things that are commonly deemed “wrong”, like guilt, social isolation, imprisonment, etc.
No Christ is morals made flesh. Got a date. I got to go. Fantastic work, gentlemen.
Now then consider the fractal nature of language and the fractal nature of sou The science of language includes sounds( phonations) phonemes, morphology(words)syntax, semantics, structures, literal and lastly pragmatic( contextual meaning). Language in its structure can have fractal meanings, with double, triple or more entendres ( meanings) given the same syntax, semantics structures, sounds, etc. Language is regarded as a representation of information. Words are not only sounds but transmit meaning. Transmission of meaning is a function of intent. Sounds and words can have meaninglessness by intent but when there is meaning there is necessarily intent. Sounds transmit action. Sounds are measured as frequencies and vibrations. Sounds and vibrations can act on reality. Chladni plates, cymascopes, oscilloscopes, etc are means of demonstrating the actionable properties of sound. Sounds can have particular shapes and patterns. These shapes and patterns are determined by the substances being acted upon as well as the substance acting. Water is a classic example of such actings visualized in cymascopes and oscilloscopes. Furthermore water not only can be acted upon by sound but water also then produces sound. Multiple sources of frequencies, vibration can simultaneously act on water. Oceans are acted on by wind, earth crust ( earthquakes and volcanoes, tectonic plates and subsurface dynamics) , gravity and electromagnetic fields, etc.
Water crashing on a beach creates sounds as well as patterns in sand or rock.
Sounds as spoken can have structural topology. This topology itself has transmitting effects( these effects can have effects into and beyond the structure directly acted on.. ocean waves caused by earthquakes can transmit patterns on land, sand and rocks not acted on directly by the earthquake, etc.).
nd. If sound is an operative of words and therefore language then such sounds can transmit intent by their meaning.
Given the above consider:
What do you mean by "can", and "Morality" "exist" what do you mean "without", and what do you mean by "God"
Without God morality would be subjective because by default it will come from humanity and the implications of that would be disturbing because if the laws of morality can changed then any horrible thing justified by reason can be done but If morality is objective meaning unchangeable given by God would imply restrictions from any individual doing evil.
Well said
You assume that if morality is subjective, it would inevitably lead to justifications for harmful actions, but this perspective overlooks the complexity of how subjective morality can work in practice.
Morality is already, to a large extent, subjective because it is influenced by personal, cultural, and societal factors. Different cultures have different moral codes, and individuals within those cultures may hold varying views on what is right or wrong. It was always more subjective rather than objective.
In a world where morality is subjective, the potential for justifying harmful actions still exists, but people can use reason, growth, and empathy to build consensus on what is considered immoral. While this makes morality more flexible, it doesn't mean it is free from any moral standards; it simply means these standards can be debated and revised.
You are saying that objective morality (imposed by god) is the only way to prevent moral wrongs, which ignores the growing recognition that moral values can be determined through human reasoning and the collective good. Far from leading to chaos, subjective morality can foster ongoing reflection and growth in ethical thinking.
Amen!
Vervaeke is correct on “ to save western civilization “…
Morality does not exist without God as God is morality. That is like saying there can be sunshine without the Sun.
Please try to converse with Nassim Nicholas Taleb on your podcast it would be historically significant.
This is the guy you brought on in the place of Bishop Barron😂😂
I know. Such a downgrade.
Which guy?
Human morality is an emergent property of natural law. God is always in the shadows, even when we convince ourselves morality stands on its own. The echoes of divine archetypes persist, shaping our sense of right and wrong whether we acknowledge it or not.
Contemporary right wing conservatives take note ! You can’t do this thing without Christ!
I love John Vervaeke so much, he would be a juggernaut in the body of Christ
Did not all tribes of Isreal suffer damage from straying away from the Word of God? Straying away from what the Bible says and not letting that be the reference is damaging. Missing details do cause hurt and things getting damaged. Remove not the Ancient Landmarks that the Father’s have set. 5:18
Ignorance and omission causes damage.
Why would you need a belief in God if you subscribe to moral objectivism?
Because man made morality has changed dramatically in the last 12 years alone…
Many people argue that, without God, morality becomes subjective based on individual or cultural beliefs that can change over time. Belief in God provides an unchanging, universal foundation for what is right and wrong.
Christian believes that god is the ultimate source of objective morality. Under this perspective, morality is objective because it is rooted in God’s unchanging nature.
But whether believing in god for objective morality would depend on who he is. Since Christians say that god is the ultimate source of objective morality. Under this perspective, morality is objective because it is rooted in god’s unchanging nature.
Now, whether god is good or evil that you have to find out both subjectively and objectively
Our morality are inscripted in our DNA
The still, soft voice
Well, at least our proclivity for it
Our morality is scripted in all levels of our reality
It was embedded in us by God. Our creator. It doesn’t just magically appear within us.
Psalms 53:2-3. Ano ang pagkakaiba ng mga Hukom at Abogado?! Proverb 16:12. Hebreo 4:12
Why you dicuss a one small aspect while you can proceed dicussing a variety of things,,,it is an interesting videos,,and hoping the Bishop is well and will make to the coming show
They should have had William Lane Craig at this table.
Good and bad come from somewhere just like technologies did not appear from out of thin air something immortal that has been around for ages taught people technology something that was born perfect and full of knowledge of life.
excelent
Just look at what is happening now. There is this pervasive lack of meaning in people's lives..people are so freaking depressed and very anxious at the same time (i.e. lack of an ideal). It's a recipe for an existential crisis (a.k.a. dark night of the soul) 🤔🙃. On the outside it looks really bleak but on the spiritual level, this is actually a good thing. Why did I say that? Because it leads people to look up...to look for an ideal. A way to look at something higher than themselves. That is my definition of GOD in an ultimate sense, really. Morality without and IDEAL doesn't make sense. It might worked for a short time but is not sustainable in the long term.
Depression & anxiety are less of a lack of an ideal & more of a dietary issue, a health issue. Our food is highly processed, riddled with chemicals that play with our hormones & chemistry. People are malnourished because they don’t eat the right things, they don’t take care of themselves. Nutritional deficiencies, and hormone imbalances can cause change in perception, sensory input, cognition, temperament, etc..
Anthropology has shown us to be hyper carnivores from stable isotope testing. Plants have defense chemicals that destroy our intestinal wall over time leading to autoimmune immunity, and inflammatory conditions of all kinds, and sugar consumption leads to diabetes that causes many co-morbidities i.e. atherosclerosis, Alzheimer’s, obesity, etc..
What you say amounts to only a fraction of what truly causes depression, and anxiety. Even malaise, and apathy. Lack of determination, sex drive, etc..
Know it in your heart and soul trust in jesue
In the beginning was the word( a word as a form of expression of meaning and intention) and the word was with God, and the word was God( when you speak your words are you and the spirit of your intentions and so then the words, sounds of the words having meaning by God’s intention are transmitted information). The same ( word) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him( the word of God as God); and without him was not anything made that was made( all things then are made by the word, sound, frequency, vibration, as language , as information transmission, as God/ I am that I am, as in to be to be, God as existence itself, being as the primary category of existence, that being spoke into existence all other being/ being the creator of all other being is not the same as being that other being ( not a oneness of all things .. not a Buddhist proposition).
In him( the word as God, in the word was life/ life is spoken into existence) was life; and the life was the light of men( life as light, in the word was life which was light/ light is the fundamental being ( object as wave particle… as a something which exists… which has structure and is a transmitter of information/ light as a particle, as spherical, an object with a surface which surfaces can carry-transmit information).
First Council of Nicaea : reimagined in modern day
Our God indeed is a covenant keeping God. Has he said a thing and not perform it? I watch how things unfold in my life, from penury to $56,000 every three months and I can only praise him and trust him more. Hallelujah
Excuse me for real?, how is that possible I have struggling financially, how was that possible?
That's a major tum around. Praise be to Jesus our Lord. Hallelujah
But then, what do you do? How do you come about that in that period?
Kindly let me know more bout this bimonthly thing you just mentioned. Please...
Alright I will leave her info below this comment 👇
Put the digits together....
Please discuss Wielenberg’s godless normative )platonic) realism. And there are other frameworks. That said, yes, classical theism (and even neoclassical a la Josh Rasmussen 2019) would entail moral realism, granted.
They are not debating god. They are addressing the mind and how it is oriented towards the higher goals. This is how to discuss god.
The mind employs a set of a’ priori modes to systemically align and thus, synthesise with the order and symmetry of things.
Adding is an obvious mode to most. You can’t add up what I am about to relay without it. We can’t add up the variables of evolution without it. It’s not just there for adding up the pennies in your purse.
Categorisation is another mode. We categorically define the world we are of. I categorise adding as a mode of thought. We move in and out of categories continuously.
Identification is another mode. Identify the structure of the cell. Identify our root on the evolutionary ladder. Identify categorisation as a mode. We can’t seem to be able to identify our own nature as human in a fixed way. Just can’t ground the predicate.
Configuration is another mode. When things don’t figure, it’s because the mind hasn’t combined with the correct configuration.
Unification is another mode. To unify what we are searching for. To add it up and unify it.
There are many more modes. Considered together as a constellation set; as a concatenation of modes, the mind can be seen as a systemic tool. A tool prior to ego and experience. A tool for systemising and synthesising its place in the order of things as I said. You are employing them right now as you engage with me.
This set is in everyone. It is a universal set and thought is impossible without it. Language by extension is impossible without it.
From a phenomenological perspective, this set is what we are until we know more. It is this set that allows us to abstract and see that appearances are not what things are. It is this set that allows us to see that the body has no fixed predicate so it is a loose idea at best.
In essence, we are a set of systemic modes floating in an ocean of dissipating variables and until we can say more we are that.
This set is responsible for all knowledge structures. Science and philosophy are impossible without the systemic lens/eye. Kant employed them to ground his categories. Einstein employed them to ground his perspective and so forth. One ring to rule them all. One eye to systemise it all. This is the essence of God. We are made in gods image means the systemic eye is the god of eye and its impress is within.
Nothing is so critical and impotent as an intellectual. Keep it simple, keep it real, you Chaps
Morality cannot exist without the presence of God. The core of morality relies on the intrinsic value of human life, which becomes meaningless if humans are not seen as valuable. Our worth doesn't simply come from being human; it stems from being created in God's image as His chosen representatives on earth.
"Can you do God's will without believing in God?!"
Seems so silly to me...
There is no believing.
Is the sky and Earth a joke to you? Do they not exist?
Define God.
A creator?!
That would imply a beginning, but the truth has no beginning.
Always has, always will.
It can’t
The truth, but as the teacher would say: Show your work!
Morality cannot exist without CHRIST specifically (not any of the made-up gods) because an unmoored morality swings at the whims of whatever may be considered politically correct, and what is PC is decided by whatever benefits the powerful. Jesus, on the other hand, provides objective morality by virtue of being the primary authority above all others.
"MORALITY can't EXIST without MORAL GIVER (GOD JESUS )"
Money is our new God.
What if morality already exists within each of us without any sort of system. I disagree with the idea that morality is taught I actually think as someone who grew up with a single quite unstable mother that morality actually comes from within and whatever it is that people call god. Is actually an evolutionary believe system that is inherit. To everyone. But heaving something like a bible that outlines those believes is incredibly useful in a world where people have forgotten how to listen to their most inner voice.
@@falconcourt8740 Does the inner voice say the same things for every person, despite their divergence from their ancestors and each other?
This is where Jews and Christians differ. Jesus wasn’t say that much new that wasn’t already in the Hebrew Bible
We were told not to eat from that tree…..
If we didn't ate from that tree....we wouldn't exist, you see 😂😂😂 The snake was a double agent 😂😅
“We”. Im so tired of being lumped in and blamed for something i didnt do, much less something that was a mythical event to begin with
@@nathaniel5261 Unless you don't considered yourself as a human being....then there is no "we" 😅 The fact that we are able to contemplate the very fact of our own existence makes us eat from that tree, you see... So, is the story real, or not?! For me, it's ultra real!!!! 😅😅😅
Can Morality Exist Without Belief in God?
IF morality cannot exist without Belief in God, then Morality & God WOULD BE synonymous. At least implicatively...they are not.
What evidence would support your last sentence? the Old Testament alone provides overwhelming evidence of the opposite
Morality is synonym for Morals.
And I have to say, without God, being specific here, without Yahweh, because all these people dance around the word God.
God to Europeans can be human figures, this is why all their Greek gods like Zeus are sculpted in a form of a man, if it’s a man’s body, it has weakness and cravings, not to mention, who created the stars and heavens, did Zeus claim to? No, thence he is not what we call God, which God to us is creator of the universe. That’s Yahweh, some etymological names like Jahova, Allah, Elohim and all that passed over to different languages.
We see the number one beneficial things of the Jews, Christian’s and Muslims of the pre-modern era, 1,000 years and on, is the congregations, the churches, the mosques, the synagogues, these places are put up so their is consensus, two buildings for instance, one by the Greeks and Roman’s like Aristotle and Socrates, Marcus Aurelius they set up amphitheaters, to discourse on politics we know as democracy, the other a mosque, instead of just consulting on a philosophical level, theology, the study and coming close to the creators, is what the Jews patented.
This is why they excelled in everything, the Roman’s compared to the Jews is of no contest, the Roman’s were probably the most unethical, inhumane, sadistic and cruel people to walk the earth. They didn’t have laws of justice, they had laws for lucrative gain. Moses was given laws far before the Roman’s even hit the scene, and by far it’s still the most used law universally, not just of their time, but our time and still far into the future as well. Gods law is just, all the prophets tested it, and so did our predecessors in the passed 500 years, likewise even the last century, entertainers like Elvis Presley, Bob Marley, Michael Jackson, and Willie Nelson were all gospel singers and they spread the Bible ten fold, which shows merit of the morality in what to do and what not to do. Scientist like Einstein, Nikola, Newton all have memoirs on how they read the Bible weekly and got all their advances from.
Same with businessmen, Jim rhon, John D Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, these are all multi millionaires and billionaires, and they profess the importance of the morality that comes from God. As for the nay sayers, let them be, don’t even give them rent in your mind, we have too much things to employ than worrying about their empty minds or in their case, filled to the brim. There were believers in their eras that crossed over, and their was unbelievers in their era that died off, empty and baron. Like Solomon said, what has happened before will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun. Thence their will be believers now in abundance who follow the statutes of God, and there will be non-believers now as well, who just wanna argue to argue, be idiots and know it alls. Good luck to them, we already know how that’s gonna end. 😂
Fuck em, keep the statutes and commandments given in the Torah, Tanakh, Gospels and even the Quran. And you will be given life and peace.
A person who is moral for the sake of christ is reall different form others who are moral without Christ,for me its like a teacher who teaches because of passion and another who teaches because thats the only job available, both might work hard but the students note the difference
Thank you very much Jordan Peterson and your clue,one day i will be like you
😏
I grew up goign to catholic school. I do not practise religion nor did my parents. That doesnt mean i dont have a set of morals. Big fan of Christians but get off your high horse.
Caring about where people spend eternity is not a high horse. It’s called love.
@@happyappy19931 ‘Sticking our noses into others peoples business isn’t intrusive, it’s _LoVe!!!’_
Don’t make me puke.
My read is morality is not taught but is within. The ‘Golden Rule’ is a species derived concept that we pieced together over centuries knowing that treating others as ourselves is the only way for species survival against difficult odds. Our entire social system is based on reciprocity. No one teaches this but most behave as this is the best means forward. Having researched many expert publications, I am left with the belief that this is our DNA acting as our inner driver. The concept of God came long afterwards as we began to move from tribes to cities and extended trading of goods and services with larger groups of individuals. Fairness in the exchange process became a key part of the success of some when others took advantage. It is in our DNA for most of us to treat others as ourselves. The exceptions are the conmen and conwomen who once known few will give them a second chance to swindle. Most children know what is fair well before they understand the concept of a higher authority.
Morality doesn't seem to exist with God. This is being demonstrated on many fronts around the world by those lacking morality acting in the name of their God. God, Messiah, Elohim, Allah, etc. will make the final judgment and most of us will be found wanting. May we all find our morality and experience the morality of others.
MORALITY EXISTED BEFORE CHRISTIANITY.
That's not what's being said. We believe morality exists in our conscience whether we believe there is a creator/god or not. What's being said is that morality only exists objectively because there is one. Because morality comes from Him directly. So no, without God, we couldn't have morality at all, it would just be some arbitrary opinion, and the fact that we can tell morality is objective is partly proof that God exists.
@@DoubleOhSilver I dont actually think morality is objective. What is the most good way to live for 1 person might go against the most good path for someone else. i do believe we all have a sense of what is moral its given to us through millenia of evolution. there are powers present that we do not yet understand I just think those powers are forces of nature not an individual inteligence. though the way to interact with those forces of nature is very nicely perscribed in the bible. I think you dont need a god or a bible to follow that path all you need to do is silence your mind and listen.
@@DoubleOhSilver basicly you guys are saying no morality without god. im saying no god without morality.
God created time. He existed before anything because he is eternal.
@@happyappy19931 so what is god? Why a he? Why does time not simply exist for the sake of it existing. Why does it need to have been created? Time is a construct created by people. In that sense our ability to think created time if you call that ability god, then yes god created time.
Easy one. There is no god and there are morals. So yes.
God is the concept created by a man.
You're not thinking about it ontologically enough
Without God there is only blind, pitiless indifference.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not( this is a necessary understanding, darkness is not light and darkness is not a transmitter of information by structure in the way that light is a transmitter of information… therefore darkness does not comprehend light information).
…And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Understanding this now consider:
In the beginning ( or when, in the beginning) God created the Heaven ( singular) and earth( what are the ancient Hebrew words for black holes, galaxies, dust clouds… the universe?/ these words did not specifically exist but given the fractal nature of words and language it can be, and is understood to be, that “the Heaven and earth “ has fractal meaning in that it represents the concept of the universe as a whole and that at the beginning the conditions were set by which the earth was created).
And the earth was without form, and void( again as fractal meaning the earth was set in its place even at the creation before there was a universe per se/ given the fractal nature of language ( as I will consider throughout) when earth is presented in this manner it can be understood as meaning both the earth itself and the universe because by necessity the earth is part of the universe/ was without form = without morphology, shape, etc. and void… was actually not of physical substance… again fractal read is that both the earth was of no physical substance nor was the universe, and the earth as well as the universe was without shape, morphology = form) . Was without form and void is a great description of what occurs before a lightning strike. The pattern which the lightning strikes is set up by the pre lightning strike “void” pattern.
And darkness was upon the face of the deep ( recall that darkness is without understanding… without understanding if the light because light transmits information via structure, topology. What is the “face of the deep”? Does deepness have a face? What is a face? A face is a structure, a topology, a morphology. But herein that structure, morphology was dark, which is the absence of light. Yet there was a face of the deep… a structure of the universe, nay but a structure into which the universe could expand into with light which could and would travel and transmit information from God as the word which was before creation but was the creator as the word with the creator God( to be to be.. the essence of existence)).
And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters( again fractal read, the face if the water has been interpreted as the surface of the ocean but the fractal reading is the water is a category as well as a type of substance. Here we have introduced the spirit of God. The spirit is like the wind moving to and fro whether you know not where it blows… so the spirit of God is the transmission of the word as in frequency, energy and vibration… acting on liquid/ plasma matter-energy. Fractal as acting upon h2O as well as molten metal, lava the earth as well as the universe… God in this chapter of Genesis has compacted information which was interpreted in literal terms as a particular meaning framed within a paradigm and that paradigm projected that interpretation through time without the understanding of a present paradigm but because of the fractal nature of language it represents truth through both interpretations within those disparate paradigms ( genius supreme). Recall the highest order of language is not literal but pragmatic. In this function of pragmatic interpretation a fractal nature as well as a categorical interpretation lends to understanding as to be scientifically precise. / acting on liquid the flow of information and energy moving on the face= morphology, shape… shaped the universe and necessarily the earth and liquid of earth… again recall that sound as waves can impart action through other on other things( earthquakes->water-> land) as such the liquid forms structures, patterns on which the next wave can function… words with sentences, paragraphs, storylines, books… information, progressions of information, iterations of information).
So then before there was light the spirit of God acting on plasma/liquid energy flows( spirit winds) generated the structure into which light and subsequently life could flow and grow as iterations.
And God said( the word as information, iterated onto/into the structure of the plasma/liquid energy created by the movement of the spirit of God), Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light( observer perspective/action/quantum effects), that it was good( what is good, goodness, evil, evilness? Here the fractal meaning is philosophical as in John 1: 9-11, That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came into his own, and his own received him not.
( darkness cannot comprehend light)):
And God divided the light from the darkness ( not separated but divided them. Could this possibly mean? We understand the universe to be expanding and expanding at a particular rate, the cosmological constant. The rate at which the universe is expanding is faster than the speed of light. What is faster than the speed of light? The speed of dark is faster than the speed of light. So then consider that by God dividing the light from the dark we consider 1/137 as that division of light from dark.) .
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ( Here we are amazed at the reality of fractal and pragmatic functions of language. Neither the Sun nor the Moon have yet been created, so then what is this supposed to mean Day and night and evening and morning? If no where else but here it is understood that there is pragmatic and fractal meaning herein. Thus we move into a compaction of information understood in terms of categories. )
The next two “day”’s are the creation of
Heaven and earth again (?)
I will not give the fractal interpretation here but understand that it is so precise in its science that I do not feel compelled to give such information.
Be that as it may the categories remaining are sufficient in fractal interpretation as to be remarkable and like the 5th chapter of genesis have meaning beyond literal interpretation.
The end of the first chapter of genesis is key to understanding that the text is fractal. The image in which you are made is the lock that opens the fractal nature of the text.
Interesting idea. I think you can be moral without God. At least according to the laws of the land. You can be good in the eyes of other people but by Gods laws? That's a different story.
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because of your parents.....you exist.....
But who created your parents?
its not 'god' its belief in divine justice and afterlife - that sinners will inevitably get punished and righteous rewarded, which motivates people, but morality itself comes from coexisting and its genetic - ie psychopaths will never be moral
Can Morality Exist Without God?
Does Morality exist? Yes.
Does God exist? If its the God of the Bible with the traditional Hermeneutics, no by logical explosion.
Therefore, morality MUST exist without that which does not exist, which is the Christian God.
How did morality begin? Surely not a byproduct from evolution or a singular civilization
@@christianbrown7621 How morality "began" is most likely like how morality would begin again if you and I were dropped in a remote island...You are already excluding the possibility that we developed morality through natural selection over millennia which makes for a fruitless discussion...is it not obvious to you that any two or more agents interacting require some kind of protocol? If apes can't do it, why shouldn't we be able to without, effectively, Cosmic Magic by God? What does that even explain for us?
I'm not a feminist, but... Is there a reason why in such a large group of people there is not one woman?
Because there weren't any women who made the grade.
There are many prominent women who have the ability to organize a similar discussion.
@Ocean_Jack That is very likely true, but if a woman organized a similar discussion and invited only a large group of women and no men, I would be disappointed in the woman. After all, this is an important question and one that is equally important to both sexes.
Someone has got to cook dinner. :)
women philosophers are a rarity
Our idea of morality comes from religion. A religion that teaches different values will have a different idea of what is moral. The Aztecs believed it was morally correct to conduct human sacrifice, that was ethical in their belief system. We take a lot of morality as self evident, of course it's wrong to kill, to steal, to lie, etc, but there are religions and therefore entire cultures around the world that don't hold those values. The extreme proliferation of Christianity in particular, but Abrahamic religions in general, have left us with a huge portion of the world that has fairly consistent morals and that's tricked a lot of people into thinking that it's somehow just innate. In spite of the fact that the world is full of violence and every kid needs to be taught at some point not to hit other kids, we are ignorant enough to not realize that our moral system does come from something. Without it, who knows how long it will take, but I can't see any other outcome than mayhem. These people don't know history, they don't have an understanding of the wider world and that it's not like it is here everywhere.
Yes. Next question.
The first sentence is so wrong and that is because jews didn’t get to the sermon on the mountain.
Yes but no
I’m a gnostic but I wasn’t always and morality has been central to me since I was a child. I grew up in a fully non religious family and society (Western Australia).
Some argue that morality originates from an inherent, historical concept of God, suggesting that even secular ethics ultimately trace back to divine authority embedded in human culture. However, this claim can be refuted by examining morality’s foundations in human nature and reason, which predate and operate independently of any specific religious framework. Evolutionary biology shows that traits like empathy and fairness are universal, rooted in the need for survival and social cohesion, not contingent upon religious belief. Furthermore, diverse cultures worldwide developed moral systems that function effectively without shared concepts of God, as seen in Confucianism or Buddhism. Rational philosophical systems, such as Kant’s categorical imperative or utilitarianism, provide logically consistent frameworks for ethical behavior without appealing to divine origins. While the concept of God has influenced the moral norms of many societies, the ability to reason, empathize, and cooperate is an intrinsic part of humanity, demonstrating that morality can arise from secular and naturalistic principles rather than being inherently tied to theological origins.
Can Morality Exist Without God? - NO
Can Morality Exist Without Belief In God? - YES
Y u chase my family.th reason behind ur unhappiness is not .😮. Ur bad deeds inthe past so let me free
Y shld I bother abt it
The question is nonsensical. It's like asking, "How heavy is yellow?" Linguistically correct but rationally nonsensical.
A far, far better question would be, "Why does not a belief in God preclude believers from doing evil?"
The examples of fervent believers committing all sorts of atrocities is beyond counting. SS guards had God Is With Us (in German) on their belt buckles.
If you believe you have a God on your side, you can excuse any atrocity.
That was just part of the uniform which dates back to the weimar republic, SS officers didn't put or decide to put that on their belt buckles . It's like saying, How can drug dealers possibly do bad things when they are using dollar bills with "in God we trust" written on the front .
Of course it can. What you need is acceptance of the concept of Natural Law. God is optional. Back to Euthyphro.
And who MADE Natural Law? Your premise fails.
Imagine citing Plato for this, maybe go back to the timaeus. He answers the question brought up there with divine simplicity- God (the form of the Good) is identical to morality, it emanates it in the way it does the fundamental laws of reality which structure the universe. Trying to bring up Plato to support atheism means you cannot have read Plato.
@@KopperNeoman It doesn't require creation, merely observation. If we can observe natural law we can follow it. But what makes it natural is its existence regardless of input from a creator agent.
Natural law, at least how christianity portrayed it to me, is not real ethics, just an abstract set of rules for its own sake
@@nathaniel5261Natural Law encompasses practical ethics. But yes, it is a broader concept. However, it is IMPOSSIBLE to derive ethics from anything else but Natural Law.
The question is a metaethics question.
Are there any metaethicists on the panel? No.
Is the question even remotely well-handled by the panelists? No.
I'm stunned.