Dodger: The bakers said to eat the cake before it spoils. Iron: I like the beer better. Dodger: Everyone likes the beer better. Iron: I will eat the cake. Thank you, Dodger. Dodger: Panahedan. I'll see you soon. Rook: So the childhood friend has a softer side. Dodger: The bible says you take care of people. Rook: So you're a little French, a little German, and a little Irish? Dodger: Yeah? Rook: I get that. Dodger: Come on. I should tell my mother how Iron doing.
@@sungrandstudios Haha thanks. I had to make a couple revisions. Originally I was thinking of making Iron's wife say "I like you less" with iron replying "Everyone likes me less". After iron's wife refuses to eat the cake, iron leaves with Dodger to talk about his "tougher" side. But I felt like I changed the "I like cookies" line too much and the reversal of the lines made me like the parody more. So instead I went with a more direct translation.
It feels like AI trying to fill a dialogue. I went to the store. Stores are a good place to go to buy things. Things are bought at the store. Good day.
I mean, for a story heavy game as RPGs and the like often are, even if you just focus on the dialogue side of this game, that will still hit hard, and in this case, hit harder because you have the other DA games as reference
I think SkillUp's review will go down in history. It was...eye-opening. And sad. Deeply sad. Here's the thing, I don't rejoice in things being bad, I'd rather they be good. But Veilguard for me is the last nail in the coffin, Bioware isn't JUST a shell of the studio it once was. It lacks even any competent new talent of its own to grow into something new, or better.
None constructive negative reviews don't hit as hard because the target will soon zoom out and think "This guy just hates me". Constructive criticism makes you think and urge you to be better - and show a way to achieve that goal. You don't simple shrug it off: "Maybe this person actually know what he/she is talking about - better pay attention."
So brown people make mistakes and white people are there to correct them, right? Is that what you're selling here? You do realize that you're watching a video by a brown person, right? How are you coping with that cognitive dissonance btw?
Literal Oblivion dialogue. T: "Hi." K: "Hello." T: "You should eat fruit." K: "I don't think so." T: "Yeah I guess you are right." K: "I will try fruit later. Thank you." T: "Bye!" K: "Bye!" The rest reminds me of 19th-century German realist literature, where the characters don't pay attention to each other and talk past each other. But I doubt Bioware writers have read any of that stuff.
Not even the generative Oblivion dialogue is that bad. I mean it does read similar to how those go, but those actually have a degree of flow that is lacking in this scene.
"this Dialoge couldn't have been written by an AI, because it's so terrible. An AI would at least create a logical flow." 😂😂 is exactly what I was thinking
I wouldn't be suprised if this whould have been the original dialouge but then SBI or whoever jumped, looked at every second line and said: "you have to make this more inclusive" which resulted in the entire dialogue being super inclusive and non-effending but making absolutely no sense.
I think that even if Taash would go with the lecture that fruit offer more beneficial nutrients than cookies, it still would be better than what they went for, albeit boring as fuck nonetheless.
Something certainly way off. Aside from if it is an ai voice; backing up a moment, they didn't even choose a fitting voice for the character at all. Nothing fits or feels right about it.
While I agree with the sentiment there is actually a conversation about cookies in Origins. Sten, who views the rest of the world as backwards and uncivilised, admits to leliana that one of the few things he approves of are what he calls "the soft baked goods" which the qunari have no name for. Now in Origins it serves a purpose in showing us a side of sten that isn't wholly obsessed with the Qun, a look at the person beneath and an attempt to humanize and initially alien society. Here it's an attempt at a reference to that conversation in Origins except written and performed by people with metal deficiencies.
When the guy said he would eat the fruit, I thought it was a third character volunteering to eat the fruit since no one else wanted it. That was the only way I could comprehend that flow of dialog.
Nah. She told him he gets fruit. He's like "I prefer cookies" which she rebuked with "Everyone prefers cookies [but the fruit will spoil so that's what you get, whiner]" He bent over for her and acquiesced. The problem with the dialogue is that the tone of the lines is wrong, which confuses you - he should have been "Fine, whatever, I'll take the fruit." which would make it more obvious.
Back in dragon age origins, half the banter with morrigan and Alistair was gold. It was so natural. These dialogues feel like what the Kardashians says.
There's an entire ongoing series of conversations where Morrigan annoys sten by trying to seduce him until he finally says yes at which point his proposition is intimidating enough she's the one to back down Wynne tries repeatedly to have a "come to Jesus" with Zevran to her own frustration every time Alistair will seek out Wynne for advice, and he and Morrigan take barbs at each other that is entertaining without feeling forced Sten and Dog get along in their way Shale hates birds and the world shall know The writing was what made origins memorable
a qunari just said "Yeah?" - let that sink in..Qunari dont talk like that look at Sten OR Other qunari's ...something like yeahh or words like that is some san francisco shit added into DAO where everyone speaks in medieval english language
I feel bad for most of them. They're trying to make the best of the dialogue that they didn't write, and even they know it's dog sh8t. "What's my motivation in this scene?" Veilguard Director: "Motivation?"
Me too man, can't believe we have bs like this, being a badass for telling someone to eat fruit instead of a goddamn cookie? Are we serious right now?? 😂
I hate how everyone is calling this "modern", it's catering to 2% of the world population and is an insult to many beliefs. They deserve any hate and angry letters they end up receiving.
Rapidly losing brain cells and sanity over here as well. It feels like a form of gaslighting where you're listening to something and it's not making sense, and yet your brain tries to make sense of it anyway.
I improved the dialogue, took me about 5 minutes.. Evataash: [handing over a wrapped bundle, her expression calm] Here-a little more than just fish. Shathann said to eat the fruit before it spoils. Karash: [opening it, raising an eyebrow] Hoped it’d be the cookies tonight. Evataash: [a slight smirk] We’ll save indulgences for when they’re earned. Karash: [sighs, taking the bundle] Fruit it is, then. Thank you, Evataash. Evataash: Panahedan, Karash. [nods] Karash exits with a nod of thanks. Evataash and Rook move away from the campfire, stepping into the cooler shadows. Rook: [half-smiling] Didn’t expect to see the dragon hunter with such… consideration. Evataash: To be Qunari is to protect what surrounds us. [eyes narrow slightly] Sentiment has little to do with it. Rook: But you’re not just Qunari, are you? I’ve heard whispers-you’re Rivaini, too, and some would say... part dragon. Evataash: [glances at him, voice firm] Labels are for the curious. I am what the Qun needs me to be. Rook: [nods, chuckling] Fair enough. Though I’d say you’re more than that. Evataash: [with a measured tone, steering the conversation back to practical matters] Come on, then. My mother will want word that Karash still breathes. They walk on, their footsteps blending into the night.
That is indeed better. I think the author of the video missed the point of the original dialogue. The point was to humanize and show the motherly qualities of the dragon hunter, while providing her character backstory with a bit of exposition. The original dialogue is stilted, and a bit too on the nose, but it actually (sort of) accomplishes this. I think that the video author is perhaps lacking context or otherwise missed the point of the scene. I have not played the game, but it seems to me that much of the games dialog is cloying. It many of the clips I have seen sound very much like apparently talking to a small child (though all the characters are adults). This scene is the same: Eat your veggies. No, I want cookies. Everyone prefers cookies to vegatables, but you still have to eat them. This is not a conservation between adults.
@@JOEDHIGGINS It is what reviewers are saying, the writing is very juvenile, where Rook is the parent who is looking after children with their petty arguments. But everyone always part ways amicably. No conflict, that result in a waste of time, or the feeling of a waste of time.
Well done! Improves not just the flow, but also feels more in line with dialogue that feels consistent with the franchise's lore. The Qun speaks curtly in a way that is much more interesting and informative to the reader than. "...Yeah?"
For comparison this is cookie dialogue from the original game (Dragon Age: Origins), with the warden being the player character, carroll being essentially a ferryman, and Sten being a very stoic and battle-hardened Qunari (the same culture the horned person in this clip claims to be from): *Warden:* I need the first Enchanter's help *Caroll:* No! I've got one job, and one job only, and by the Maker's shiny gold cutlery and I will do it! *Warden:* The Maker probably doesn't have cutlery. *Caroll:* Oh? And He's told you that, has He? Well you're still not getting in the tower. *Warden:* As a Grey Warden, I demand to be brought to the tower. *Caroll:* You're a Grey Warden are you? Prove it. *Warden:* I don't have to prove anything to you. *Caroll:* So I'm not good enough for you? Fine. See if you get into the tower on your own then. *Warden:* Can't we work something out? *Caroll:* Hmm... I don't know. Y'know, I am feeling a little peckish, though. *Warden:* You want me to feed you? *Sten:* Parshaara! Here! Munch on these if you like. *Caroll:* Oooh, cookies! *Sten:* I am content to part with them if it saves us from this fool. *Warden:* Where'd you get those? *Sten:* There was a child - a fat slovenly thing, in the last village we passed. I relieved him of these confections, he didn't need more. *Warden:* You stole cookies from a child? *Sten:* For his own good. *Caroll:* Mmm, yummy. You scratch my back, I scratch yours, yes? We can go across now if you really want.
@@alventuradelacruz522 Sten is genuinely hilarious without meaning to be lol His comment when you enter a tavern is: "Very innovative, making a place for idiots to gather where they won't be underfoot."
Depth and subtlety is lost on these writers. Thanks for taking the time to break this down. I've been a big fan of this series... shame what's happened to it
I just played through the original Silent Hill 2. The scene where James first meets Angela, where they're both disoriented and confused and don't really seem know what's going on, they still managed to converse with each other in a more cohesive manner.
LOL true and in SH2 they deliberately made it unnatural on purpose for the surreal uncanny horror atmosphere, the writers here actually think this sounds normal......
I'm (gald) he mispronounced all of the Dragon Age lore words. This isn't a Dragon Age game. This is an elementary school example of how NOT to write. 🤧
Good writing takes life experience, but these people spent their life in private education where they were told they were special at everything & their resume is a list of films that their parents were producers on.
It is the main thing hindering these young writers. Their lack of true life experience (and I would go as far as to assume also lack of REAL hardships) leave them with nothing real to pull from that people can identify with. This is why, as skillup put it in his review, story and character conflict is reduced to petty squabbles. It's all the writers know about life. Stories are human experience.
I wrote my first fan fiction at roughly 13 years old and didn't write anything else until I was 30. The level of night and day differences goes beyond just better spelling and world building, it's being able to sit back and think "How would a real person react to this?" and draw from not just your own personal experience but in my case at least working customer service for the last 15+ years. In that time I very likely ran into someone who is like the character I am writing and from that (usually negative) interaction I can add a more realistic reaction to the story while tweaking it as needed.
@@Hybris51129 I wrote my first fanfictions as 9 years old before I know internet and fanfiction is even a thing. My writing only started to evolve after I become a high school student and I'd say only matured when I started college. That's 9 years of writing nonstop.
The dialogue of this game is all written by people who have never considered a real life interaction where tension and conflict is had. Someone else said "The dialogue is as if HR is in the room." And it's painfully true, there's someone waiting for offensive words that could possible cause trouble. There is no passion being written here. Its to cater to an audience who can't comprehend possible conflict, for the writers themselves don't know how to make meaningful conflict or conversations.
Writing a conflict probably gives them anxiety. Like that guy who posted that he works on Halo (a military sci-fi franchise) and can't stand seeing guns. What happened to this generation? A disproportionate amount of people seem so soft you wonder how they make it through each day.
The Dialogue is the type of talk you get in a room of DEI hires. They nothing but passive manipulation and stilted wording because they cannot go against the other person.
@@luske2 Because we live in the Softest era of life, where you can live being that soft with nearly no conflict of anytype in your daily life. Those type of people dont live in areas like I do where shooting take place every other week despite being in a Deep Blue state with gun bans. That You avoid certain streets just because of the danger. They dont live in areas like that so they have no worries
The cookies line is missing "but you need to look after your health." The he replies "ok ill eat the fruit" This would also demonstrate the softer side by showing she cares for the health of others. It would still be awkward but this is what they were going for i think.
I think they were going for a nurturing and firm kindness sort of character trait being displayed. Basically "I know you like the cookies better. We all do, but we still eat the fruit." As if the boy is a young child- which is completely fitting with a lot of the dialogue that I've seen from this game.
maybe the writer thought liking cookies makes for soft character traits?.. as in, a battle hardened warrior cant like sweet things or something? just trying to guess their intention is a waste of time 😂
Its also weird out of context in general. Sten from origins was so obsessed with cookies because he had never seen or tasted them. He even straight up stole some from a "portly child because he did not need them" and at some point in the past 15+ years he introduced the entirety of par vollen to cookies and the rest of his people became obsessed with them too. And the true ironic part is that a big part of the qun is about self control and only doing what is needed
@@chriskoloski32I like to think our Warden if they survived went to Par Vollen and taught them to make cookies. Especially chocolate chips. But that’s my funny head canon.
- weird potato you in your sword sheath. -i ate my goo. -the square is s not a circle! -yes, i get that. -let's go make some carrot. -but you said potato. -yes, the sun is very hot.
It was so powerful when the guy turned to the other guy and said cheaters never win, and winners never cheaters, then they all clapped and congratulated each other for being brave.
it reminds me of all the oblivion memes when two npcs talk to each other and make literally no sense. 😂 The problem is that in DAV it's a freaking cutscene, and not a dynamic AI driven action between two npcs.
Part of the problem is the writers were seemingly "Conflict Averse". Nothing even mildly uncomfortable is allowed. - Rook can't say anything actually nasty, unlike The Warden/Hawke/The Inquisitor. - None of the inter-party 'conflicts' are meaningful, nor do they last longer than one or two conversations. - And now it looks like even outside 'conflicts' are softened. Not what I was hoping for in a DARK Fantasy series.
Remember Dragon Age 2? How the Qunari rolled through Kirkwall like the Huns sacked Rome? A monstrous, powerful foreign entity with powerful gunpowder weapons, a very dehumanizing culture that stripped people of their individuality, persecuted mages? Yeah... maybe the Qun mandated a high soy diet and the problem seems to have solved itself lol
Even Tallis, an elf who adopted the Qun, was as charming as she was ruthless. "Past the idea of right and wrong is a field. When the soul lies in that grass the world is in balance... I will meet you there." Now *that* was good writing.
I remember Dragon Age 2. The Qunari were so imposing, i felt like i walked into the endgame zone with the elite monsters - then i realized they don't attack and it's just another part of town. now that is character design.
I remember Isabella clearly knew something but we couldn't ask her. Cue the tragedy years later. Same with act 3 Anders. Veilguard is just doing all DA2 mistakes on steroids.
Im a writer too! Does it drive you crazy when you see games with really bad dialogue and then seeing reviewers calling the writing "masterful" it grinds my gears 😅
The arrogance in these kind of statements is just mind boggling. Just call the turd sandwich a turkey sandwich and the herd of gamers will gobble it up. As if we couldn’t think and evaluate for ourselves.
Veilguard's writing sounds like something you'd see on a kid's show. "Karash doesn't like cookies. Karash likes fruit. Rook likes fruits and cookies. What should Rook ask for?" **stares at camera for 10 seconds for your 3-year old to say "fruit"** "That's right! Fruit! We did it!" It literally feels like Dora the Explorer, like writing targeted towards toddlers or children.
I always thought that the people writing for sci-fi and fantasy IPs today are better suited for writing for shows like Gossip Girl and Keeping up with the Kardashians. That’s just where their frequency lies, their minds stuck in that high school drama period without any trace of that Tolkien wisdom or George Lucas’ creative vision.
Previous generations of writers were literate. They read classical myths (Tolkien for example learned Finnish just so he could read the Kalevala in its original language); they read history. Few works of fiction will match - let alone surpass - history, so that's an excellent thing to train on. More recent generations of writers were less literate. They didn't read much history or myth - but they did at least read great works by men like Tolkien and Clarke, so they still had some solid inspiration to draw from. However, having gotten the inspiration for their fantasy or sci-fi works from existing fantasy or sci-fi works, there was a bit of an incestuous "feedback loop" going on, especially as newer writers, who didn't read history or myth and often didn't even read great fiction, and were just raised on TV and movies, started to be the ones doing the writing. Now we're here and most of these new Gen-X writers aren't just bad at their job, they're functionally illiterate. Of course they can't write anything good. They have never even experienced good writing.
George Lucas has always been trash tho? He ruined all his own franchises bc he finally got full control. Star Wars are horrible when he wrote and directed it. His wife had to edit it to fix it and make it good, bc he was so bad. He divorces her and then immediately the series becomes ruined. He even ruined his own remaster bc he undid a lot of what she fixed. Bc he is petty and incompetent. George Lucas clearly needs someone else (or multiple people) making sure he doesnt ruin his own work. That means he isnt good in the first place.
@@nowayjosedaniel Trash is a little harsh. I'd say he's not a good director and his skill with writing dialogues is questionable. His ideas and visions, on the other hand, while not perfect, are far from garbage. He's kinda like Hideo Kojima in that he needs other people for QA and prevent him from going all over the place.
They are stuck in the high school phase because it was the only time they might have had some form of resistance (hence drama and thus life experience). After that there just was no more life experience. That was it. And that is the major problem today in writing through all media forms. You can´t write about something you have not even familiarity (technical, events and emotions) with. In the same vain, it is very very hard to write an intelligent character when your own intelligence doesn´t measure up. Most if not all writers of the past who are considered masters of their craft had a resume of travelling, crisis and even wars. You shouldn´t seek misery of course, but it does form the character and gives those precious life experiences.
The previous generation of video game writers were often the game designers themselves. They were nerds who understood how to make a video games. This generation of writers are people who specifically went to school to be a writer And haven't actually written much and certainly Haven't read anything except YA novels. They get hired because producers don't know what to look for in writing qualifications and just assume that anybody can do it. It also kind of sucks that video games seem to have a much lower standard of what is considered good writing
You can tell how little social experience the developers had, like seriously... is not just "bad writing", is straight up nonsensical, all the characters there feel like if they where an extremely socially awkward person
I think when your mind is full of the perpetual hesitations that come with fear based thinking regarding others' feelings, and having to always consider their identity and pronouns while also trying to communicate, makes it near impossible to have a natural and authentic conversation. Thus we have writing like this in a game. When everyone involved in the conversation is afraid to offend anyone else, then communication loses it’s ability to be effective, efficient and succinct.
It's written by Americans. The ethnicity that had to change Philosopher stone to Sorcerer stone and their favourite movies are about emojis. Nothing that comes from usa is good. They are soooo dumb.
i'll add a bit of context (wich will probably make the game dialog even worse). Tash and Karash are Qunari, wich is both a race AND a religion in the world of dragon age. Although the writers are so bad is very hard to tell if Tash follow the Qun (the religion) or not, since she breaks the Qun but also enforces it constantly, wich for a real follower of the Qun that would be heresy and she should be killed on the spot, anyways, i havent played failguard yet, but, i can tell the writers didn't bother with playing origins (the first dragon age game), since is well established cookies don't even exist in qunari culture. "The absence of cookies in the Qunari culture is explained by their efficiency; most cultures initially develop cookies and cakes as a way to use up leftover batter from other things. Qunari plan ahead too well to have leftovers" - Q&A 2010
You expect devs now to know the lore of the series they're working on? They dont care. Theyre just narcissists that have to enter all their beliefs into a game series they liked.
The devs don't even know who Zevran is (no, seriously, they literally don't know who he is). Lore, characters, it's all meaningless to these people, when all they care about are their own ideological beliefs.
Lemme rewrite this for a bit. Taash: Ya should eat some fruit, ya damn scurvy ridden biash. Karash: but I want cookie. I need cookie, uaaaa, uaaaaaaaa Taash: hell nah you lil cnt, eat the darn fruit. Karash: I'm going to tell mom on you! Taash decapitates Karash with a swift blow. Game over.
Taash is a Vashoth with a Tal-Vashoth mother who only left the Qun for Taash but still believes in its doctrines. Taash preaching Qunari things shows her conflict of identity in cultural sense. The concept is there, the execution isnt
@@redreaper3065 We live in a day and age where an actress can play the main character for a series that is over half a century old and proudly say in an interview that she has not watched a single episode of that series.
“I like the cookies better.” “Ok, you get your cookies after you eat the fruit. Only one! You need to act fast before they spoil and if I see any spoiled fruit they get to be the ingredients in the next batch of cookies. Got it?” “…fine.”
I hate to break it to you, but there is sadly a large number of people who have gone through high school who haven't read a book. So identifying and understanding "what is good writing", ends up being wasted on merely "is this good enough to post online". I have a friend who is just four years younger in her mid 30's who is incapable of outlining a story idea. She cheated on her English homework by writing the story first THEN writing the outline, instead of asking for help to understand the process she looked for the easy way out. Now she's struggling with revisiting her story IP and getting her somehow mild success up to industry standards. Some crazy investor decided to fund a ten episode mini series based on her radio drama podcast... Which she made because she struggled to write the story as a book. Now she is begging for my help adapting everything into a script when I'm just a local author, all because she cheated herself out of the education opportunity she had while in school. 😑
@@Mac_Omegaly yeah, I am going to go on a limb and suggest this is similar to a lot of people who failed upwards because they checked the right boxes. I am of an older generation and it amazes me the lack of knowledge on multiple fronts of younger generations. So for me when I see writing like this, then yes an average 5th grader at that time could do better. We were reading simple books by third grade and in middle school we were reading "classic" books like where the red fern grows, scarlet pimpernel, and the odyssey and doing book reports. I remember reading the Dune series in middle school. My suggestion is to offer your help for money somewhere in the 5 digit range, paid up front.
One of the biggest disconnects for me in modern "writing" is the quippy "i'm so witty and snarky" feel that makes you think they've never actually had a conversation with another human being. Its just "banter" except done in a way NO ONE DOES IN REAL LIFE.
I believe we can thank Joss Whedon for that. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly, and just about everything he has written has dialogue like that. He is a master at it, and when done well that kind of dialogue is great for adding depth and personality to your characters. And now every no talent hack is unsuccessfully trying to imitate his style.
I think it's great how all the people from different areas of RUclips are coming together and taking this crap apart in their own way, with their own expertise! - Really good work! Keep it up my asian dude
Honest to god I think it has everything to do with social media and culture. People's brains are so whipped from the damage that social media has had on humanity, stunting young people's social and real world skills. 20 years ago, these people would be likely reading a book, possibly gleaming some sort of clues relevant to narrative work. Like the way dialogue is written and structured for example. Now people scroll through endless dogshit and nonsense on their phones instead. It's already been proven literacy levels have dropped in the past two decades...
Sadly though, Dragonade: Oranges still represented a significant dumbing down and decrease in writing quality since the BioWare days of Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. People acting like this was a sudden fall - they were lazily remaking the Neverwinter Nights storyline in each of their games long before the modern writing problems kicked in.
Agonising how astute that is. Its like the writers have just read about human interaction and are attempting to mimic this from memory. As if an English lit degree is a replacement for actual life experience.
Like that line from either "Interview With the Vampire" or "The Vampire Lestat" (I forget which?) where one vampire is watching another another vampire, noticing the cunning way the other vampire mimicks human interactions, with only a split-second's delay. To the humans, the other vampire comes across as authentically human; but he's really just being an emotional chameleon, mimicking the reactions of the humans.
Alot of my social interactions are awkward, but it's never even remotely weird as this. This is like watching Sims talk with emojis and trying to decipher what the hell kind of conversation they're having that involves a pizza, a cloud, screwdriver, comic books, a banana peel and golf. Then they just stare deadpan at eachother as the game decides what to do next.
They also withheld review codes purposely to only those with overwhelmingly positive reviews/impressions. If someone had "Cautious optimism" or any critique they didn't receive a code.
Thats so not true. Many reviews have already been out, many from content creators who have already been critical of the game previews. You’re already seeing the varying opinions of the game. From “best game of the series” to “the most disappointing game of the series”
@@AidilAfham The negative reviews are based on ACTUAL crap in the game. How could you have a positive review with that much crap in the game? Would you eat a cake that only had a little bit of crap on it?
Due to requests from viewers, I have created a follow up video to help writers learn more from the mistakes of Dragon Age The Veilguard: ruclips.net/video/iCqCJmLyWjA/видео.html
"I get that"? Do you mean: "I understand how you feel" -> short mention of similar experience or emotion -> previous dialogue resumes or leads into related topic It's as if I'm trying to explain basic dialogue flow to a hyena
@@NecroknightZ The meaning is not the problem. People know what it means. The problem is best explained with the following hypothetical. Gandalf: There may come a day when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of friendship. But this is not the day! Today, we fight! Aragorn: NO CAP!
The vocabulary and intonation shouldn't be that modern. I was willing to put up with most of the dialogue but the simple 3-word response is really feeling like there's no effort to make a different world. It's not about being unable to read between the lines. I mean, you get it, right? Also you're explaining to a Frog.
I really can't stand this type of dialogue. I don't understand why its in so many games and other media these days. Its extremely off putting. Its crazy that writing in games was better in the *PS1* generation compared to modern times.
Because it's dialogue written by people with no life experience. The writers of this think talking over text and social media is equivalent to actual social interaction, they are the perpetually anxious overthinkers that practice a conversation for hours before it happens then break down because the other person said something different to what they'd practiced and go silent. This is what happens when we encourage people to identify with their mental illness instead of being encouraged to get help on the understanding that they did have a problem to work on.
If I had to fathom a guess, people are more (willingly) segmented than they were back during the PS1 years. To write good dialogue, you need to have a personal understanding how real people talk to one another, and real people have their own views, ideologies, and understandings of the world around them. Too many people are in their own social bubbles now where speaking against dominant thought is frowned upon, complete with the fear of being ostracized from said bubble (self-fulfilling prophecy). I'll also add that if anyone wants to understand how to write dialogue that makes characters feel real, just watch a Quentin Tarantino movie. I'd argue that's the strongest aspect of his movie-making ability.
It's not that crazy if you consider the people who were writers back in the PS1 era. They grew up reading the classics and were well read in general. No social media, no internet lingo corrupting their language. It's such a shame, but I start to come to terms with the fact that there will never be a game written as good as legacy of Kain anymore.. Also the voice acting in that game puts dragon age to shame as well..
So tiktok kids who haven't read a book in their lives finally graduated from college and got into the game industry. i'm not surprised by this writing, just deeply disappointed
At this point, competency on writing is not even a question. We should question their competency on socializing as normal human being. It's like the writer never have a conversation with other people before.
AI actually tries to learn from the data it is given. these "diverse real human beings" go out of their way to reject reality. and then they complain about AI taking their jobs, when it hasn't taken them fast enough.
That's giving it too much credit. This is like a child writing a movie scene. "Hello. I am hungry." "Hello. I have bread." "I would like to buy your bread." "Okay. The bread is five dollars." "Okay. Here is your five dollars." "Here is your bread." "Thank you. Yum. Bread is so good."
“They’re not listening to each other they’re just saying words” - That’s it. There was something so off about the character interactions and i think you nailed it there. Feels like everyone is on rails reading from their own monologue, regardless of what option you pick in conversation.
@@hughcapet5160 lol that shit came out of nowhere. Good to know though. I guess it's cool for little kids to have their own language. Don't know why but to each their own.
DA2 was developed in a single year and while the game play was not what we wanted, we still got a brilliant look into the world of DA. The characters and writing were not perfect (e.g. Anders going loco) but the flaws could also be blamed on a rushed production and we still got a lot of content. DA4 has apparently been in development for 8 years?
DA2 gets well deserved hate but it is impressive how they were able to do so much in so little time. Its honestly one of my favorite Dragon Age games for it and one day I wanted to see it get the time it needed to be remade but not anymore... not with the state of bioware.
@@erxs a quick google search will yield the result that dragon age veilguard began development in 2015... it is presently the tail end of 2024... so lets take 24 and subtract 15.. we get 9 so I suppose you are technically correct.
@@Silentpoppy no, dragon age FOUR began development. not VEILGUARD. the game they were working on was cancelled or rebooted or restarted multiple times during development. we've only had VEILGUARD since about 2020.
I appreciate that. I am hearing from many writers now who have explained how my 2 videos on this topic have helped them expand their understanding and improve their writing in a very short amount of time. Being able to help others has made this video absolutely worth making.
The Qunari in dragon age 2: a brutal nation of zealots who strip individuality from people, have a secret police to enforce their ideology, nearly burnt down Kirkwall and fill most people in Thedas with dread more than the Blight The Qunari in dragon age 4: buff tieflings who eat fruit and cookies. What on earth have they done to dragon age
It's now h*cking wholesome, don't you like the wholesomeness of it all? You wouldn't want conflict in your stories now, would we? Conflict is very unwholesome after all.
and look how they look, it is like they designed the head first without horns and added the horns later on like, ohh we forgot something. the qunari look like shit, nothing nature could have ever created.
Sten talking about cookies as something he never ate before is letting the viewer understand that this culture is very minimalist and stoic. They don't have cookies because cookies are empty calories that only exist for flavor and are very expensive using exotic ingredients (sugar). The Qunari culture does not allow luxuries because a society that pursues luxuries is corrupt and harmful to its people. Procuring luxuries means devoting a large portion of the culture to acquiring those luxuries. And people will harm each other to acquire more and more of those luxuries for themselves. From this we understand that the Qunari is a culture that does not have sauces. They are the warrior caste from Plato's Old Republic. They deny their people sauces so that their people do not become soft and greedy. Their society is a society devoid of luxuries so that it has no corruption. The people are assigned jobs based on the concepts from Plato's Republic. They are assigned the job that they are best suited to. A person cannot change jobs because they are already doing the job they are best suited to. This is what Sten discusses with you. Likewise they are born to the sex they are best suited to. This is why Krem from DA3 is a VIOLATION OF THE QUN. If Krem was born a woman then that is because she is best suited to be a woman and would have to be a woman based on the Qun. The writers writing about cookies in Veilguard failed to understand the purpose Sten's cookie comment was meant to serve. They operate purely at the surface level. Sten said cookies so they have to make their Qunari have a conversation about eating cookies. They don't understand that Sten's mention of never having tasted a cookie is because he was telling us his culture did not allow anyone to have luxuries so that his culture would not be corrupt. This conversation actually starts out ok. "But I prefer the cookies." "Everyone prefers the cookies" And that's the reason why Qunari don't have cookies. It is why they have a rigid caste system. Allowing people to do the things that most please them and shun the things that displease them leads to a pursuit of a life of pleasure and luxury. It is what the Qunari believe leads to corruption. If a soldier wants to be a baker then who would be left to fight off the Darkspawn? Or what if all the farmers want to be tin smiths? With no sugar farmers you need to go to war to capture slaves to work your sugar plantations. The people who own sugar plantations can now exert a level of control over the people who don't own sugar plantations but want sugar to make cookies to satisfy their cookie addiction. So you have a class system that is split between plantation owners and non plantation owners that requires bodies to become soldiers to go to war to capture slaves to work sugar plantations. A corrupt system. But the writer lost their train of thought.
Thanks for reminding me. I played DA2 and 3 a long time ago... and I'd forgotten about the Qun system. So, if we take this into consideration, this is really showing the writers don't get the point and weight of the cookie, OR, they do, and they are trying to make a point about how they (the writers) or Taash are reinventing the Qun? Because Taash's comment after is that the Qun is about caring for each other, which it is sorta if in a dictatorial kind of way, but to many other characters in the world (or gamers) it is not. So, either the writers have no concept about the philosophical questions surrounding the Qun or they are rushing to make Taash a strong, independent Qunari who writes her own Qun? I just think that her essentially telling Karash that "everyone likes cookies" serves to reinforce the Qun, in that he says he'll eat the fruit, symbolically reinforcing the Qun, which Taash is supposedly rewriting or cherry-picking for herself. But she's ready to go around telling other people what to do "for their benefit"? It's just terrible, really. But for me, even worse, is how Rook just rolls with it. There is no option to challenge Taash about her behavior, about her cherrypicking, or about her misrepresentation of the Qun. Set aside the inane writing, the lack of actual choice in this RPG is horrible.
@@chiekokurokumoYeah, it doesn't even feel like a role playing game, more like a role preaching game. Which fits with the Woke belief that we're all blank slates on which environment writes our lives, we have no Inner Locus of Control with which to make our own choices.
My elementary school english teacher would fail 10 year olds for such dialogue and these "people" get paid 6 figures to do this. I genuenly can't comprehend how these type of things can pass in a business.
because Gaming as a business is very lucrative and they have millions of defenders. Especially if its a existing IP that they do it to. Dragon Age Veilguard will break even or even make some money, it is because people will do what people do, they will ignore all negative reviews and buy a product that they shouldn't buy. They will force themselves to enjoy a game that they know they won't enjoy, they will literally torture themselves if it means winning the argument. Luckily, in a few days after Veilguard is released, we will definitely see a surge in popularity for those that post negative reviews for Veilguard, because millions of people will try to seek support from those that they ignored, but now need confirmation that they are not stupid and were mistaken with their feelings. They will add to the pile of people that finally sees it for what it is, a movement by the new Developers to destroy what they love, Gaming.
The old Bioware members are long gone, one of the last writers left after differences during DA Inquisition after he wrote the complete first act (the good one). You can see the decline after that....
Thank god, an actual writer that seems to know what he's talking about. To me it feels like the entire field of writing has plummeted off a cliff the past several years. So please don't stop, rip all these new video games, movies, and TV shows and let everyone know what actual writing is.
@@blackscorpionstingerSomeone didn't forget to take their stupid juice today, although you might have OD'd this time Back to bed grandpa, time to remove the dentures and go nap nap. Times have changed People can ask for fair pay for their work. I'm sure back in your day it was all glorious Thanks for writing this twice though, I'm sure the dementia must have kicked in and you forgot the first one
Here is an actual GPT 4 output. It's way better. Sten: Morrigan, have you tried this fruit? It is quite refreshing and nourishing. Morrigan: I have little interest in mortal food. Why do you insist, Qunari? Sten: It may surprise you, but even a witch needs sustenance. It may give you strength for the battles ahead. Morrigan: Hmph. I find my power elsewhere. But what harm can come of trying this... fruit of yours? Sten: *hands over a piece of fruit* Morrigan: *takes a bite skeptically* Hm, I must admit, it isn't as revolting as I anticipated. Sten: You see? The simplest things can bring unexpected benefits. Morrigan: Do not presume this changes anything, Sten. But... thank you. I will consider adding this to my provisions. Sten: You are welcome, Morrigan. Sometimes, even small alliances can make us stronger. Morrigan: Let us hope so. Now, let us focus on the task at hand. Oghren: Hey, look at that! She-devil's munchin' on fruit now, thanks to Sten's magic touch, eh? Can you make her smile next? Morrigan: (raising an eyebrow) Do not push your luck, dwarf. Oghren: (laughs) Ah, it was worth a shot! Carry on with your broodin' and fruit-chompin'.
A lot of writer misunderstood dialogue. Dialogue is not a conversation, it is a tool to continually develop the conflict of the story.characters move towards what they want by talking to other characters to make decisions, solve problems, or reveal secrets. If the dialogue don’t progress the story forward all u have is exposition which is boring and that is exactly what that scene is.
I'm not a writer but I do enjoy listening professional writers teaching about writing technique on RUclips. And all, I repeat, all of the RUclips videos I watched they always emphasized this. I can't believe a so called professional writers from a highly regarded game studio doesn't understand this basic even I myself understand. If they can get paid for that level of writing, maybe I can give a shot in the AAA studio too.
In dragn age origins many, many scenes are completely non verbal - especially the warden - yet you can clearly see and feel what duncan felt in his last moments - despite not a single word being spoken.
"Im a fan of these cookies" "Get in line! You and everyone else" - Laughs. "I'll settle begrudgingly for this healthier less delicious fruit" "So diplomatic. Thank you! Now f*ck off. You and your companions are insufferable" There. Way better. Me with no writing talent or creditentals whatsoever. 🤣
Then you'd get a heated email from the parents complaining. Then a talking to by HR for being toxic, by the principal for troubling him. This is how these people came to be.
@@sungrandstudios”This (shakes paper) should not exist, do you understand? It should not have come _out_ of your mind, because no competent teacher would have _put_ it there. Any type of grade would lend validation to its existence, which it _does not_ deserve. You have until next class. Fix it.”
I was a poor writer in school because I was not good at editing those beautiful decorative words. I only used the most direct explanatory language. This led to my poor writing grades in school because I could not fully summarize a thing when I was a child. Now it is easy for me to type a lot of words because I have ideas and life experiences.
this may not be a critique of the game, but if the dialogue is indicative of the rest of the game, regardless of dei, this is absolutely not worth a play. its so fucking annoying
I have seen multiple reviews for the game and none of them talk about DEI ... Mostly because every aspect of the game is so bad that having breast removal scars in the character creator is the least of it.
@@budoshi-f2l DEI writer and DEI "talking points". DEI is involved on what can or cannot be said....who can or cannot say it and so on. DEI is "everything is from the devil" of the current generation. People not seeing it for the massive problem it is or underestimating how much it corrupts and destroy are not helping making things better.
@@kellevichy bg3 is made by larian and the point is that the comment is clearly talking about bioware and even more specifically Veilguard writers I mean, Did you do some writing for this game because nuance seems to fly over your heard
Something, I found really well done in DA:O is this (and this is just one example on how good the writing was): Meeting with your father, Cyrion, as a city elf, where he laments on "not ever having small grandchildren", but ultimately accepting his daughter's/son's fate as a grey warden (and not a family man/woman) contrasts so well and so starkly with Ser Jory's excellent character-defining lines, where it is clear that he basically views the grey wardens as just a career step as a knight, and not as a life-long commitment. -Both fantastic character-defining dialogue, given that Cyrion and (especially) Ser Jory has so relatively little screen time as NPC's. You really get to feel that they both have their independent lives, pasts, and ambitions, that defines them. -And both fantastic vehicles to establish who has privileges in the gaming world (Ser Jory and the human knights/lords) and who hasn't (City elves). Heck; even Teyrn Loghain's logic and motivation behind his treason of the king and ultimately de facto regicide can be understood intellectually, from his dialogue. Whether DAV has something similar remains to be seen. We will only know that this thursday....
Attempting to defend the writing in this game is the equivalent of trying to justify a persons preference of eating paint chips. Its exhausting, a little sweet, and leaves everyone feeling ill.
Is anyone defending the dialogue of this game? I haven't seen that anywhere yet. In this video, I explain why it is so off putting and poorly executed.
@@sungrandstudios I will attest that it is not you in reference. It is many others I have viewed today in reviews attempting to blindly defend a product without truly digesting the contents of it.
@@sungrandstudios methinks it's just an apathy of people lacking critical thinking and shame/self-awareness to recognize they have no taste for good entertainment. If they ate illogical slop of Game of Thrones seasons 6-8, especially the last two, they have no clue and are okay to eat trashcan level writing.
Mass Effect died at 3, if you're actually expecting A ME1 or ME2 level game you're hilariously out of touch. None of the people that made those two games are at Bioware. They're gone. It's a different product.
@@estuardo2985 It's not that it was "woke." The developers didn't have the time or the budget. EA and Bioware made their teams produce Mass Effect Andromeda in only 18 months. They also only put in around $40 million to make the game. If you know anything about the gaming industry, Andromeda should have taken at least 4-6 years to make with a budget of at least $100 million; maybe even $120 million since this is the 4th game in the series. So the developers made a game in 1/3 of the time required for 1/3 of the budget needed. It was doomed from the start.
I plugged the conversation into chatgpt in order to get a rewrite, this is what it came up with: --- Taash: Shathann sent over some fruit. Said you should eat it before it spoils. Thought I’d bring you something different for a change. Karash: [grins] I’ll take it… but I still prefer the cookies. Taash: Who doesn’t? Cookies are everyone’s favorite. Karash: [sighs, taking the fruit] Alright, I’ll eat it. Thanks, Evataash. Taash: Panahadan. Take care, Karash. I’ll catch up with you later. [Karash leaves. Taash and Rook continue their walk away from the campfire, the quiet of the night surrounding them] Rook: You know, I didn’t picture you as the nurturing type. Dragon hunters usually aren’t so… gentle. Taash: [smirks] Guess I’m full of surprises. The Qun teaches us to take care of each other. It’s not just about strength-it’s about unity. Rook: [nods thoughtfully] So, you’re a mix of Qunari discipline, Rivaini warmth… and maybe a bit of dragon fire? Taash: [laughs] Dragon fire, huh? You think I’ve got scales hidden somewhere? Rook: [chuckles] No scales… just a rare blend. Hard edges with a soft side. Taash: [grins] Don’t go spreading rumors. The “soft side” thing is between us. Rook: My lips are sealed. [pauses, then glances at Taash] You know, it’s good, though. People need that balance. Strength with heart. Taash: [nods] Maybe. Anyway, I should check in with my mother. Let her know Karash is doing alright. Rook: Alright, lead the way. I’ll keep your “soft side” secret safe. [They share a smile and continue walking, the night stretching ahead of them] ---
Colorful and interesting conversation..Holy shit AI is even better than these toddlers at ubifail P/S huh for some reason I mix the two failures with each other..oh well
This comment just eviscerated the writers room. You know your writing is bad when ChatGPT makes it sound more organic and engaging than the lazy, unimaginative slop you've gurgled up....
I once spilled some coffee on my kitchen table and used a paper towel to wipe it. After I finished that paper towel had better writing on it than anything modern Bioware can muster.
Finally! The review that truly matters! In all seriousness I think this video is good because dialogue is very important to me and I always felt like it was off in this game. So I’m glad a professional can properly explain the issues with the writing.
It's written by people who've rarely gone outside their whole lives and whom went to colleges that were really businesses that just created an elaborate syllabus for a degree that's designed to make them feel special instead of focusing on creating actual good writers because it's more lucrative and easier for the colleges and then they go out into the real world and get jobs by playing politics and here we are
Tyrion: You just sent the most powerful man in Westeros to bed without his supper. Tywin: You're a fool if you believe he's the most powerful man in Westeros. Tyrion: A treasonous statement! Joffrey is king.
I'm writing story for my own game project, and I found this insightful for improving my drafts while also having fun roasting the living heck out of Dragon Age Veilguard
In fact, the biggest challenge in independent game development is the dubbing of the story text. If AI is used, it will lack real emotions. But it is actually difficult to find voice actors.
@@GeometryEX-hp9zs Even more so difficult to find English speaking voice actors that I can _trust_ with the project. These days lots of English speaking VAs is politically charged in their PR, sometimes inciting hostility to customers, and general disdain towards even an iota of fan service. I'm having hard time trusting any of them because of it. I'd have to risk my own side of PR nightmare once one of them gone berserk and heavily promoting political agendas and even slandering characters that I envisioned out of love of the anime and game media. It's something I cannot risk, and at the same time I cannot fully ensure it won't happen. Compare that to Japanese VAs, they're able to keep their PRs professional and focused to their craft and posts that fans can unanimously enjoy, and audiences would like them without question. I feel like I can trust on Japanese VAs and feel working with them would be a breeze, much, much more than English speaking VAs.
The story you wrote... The ending with that cake, it's so wholesome! There are so many feelings that was brought up, fear, shame, sadness, reminiscence and happiness, so many feelings in lines so carefully constructed
See Spot. See Spot run. See Spot run to the cookies. See Jane hide the cookies. See Spot eat the fruit. In four lines, Spot has been made to eat the fruit. I can write for Bioware.
as a dragon age fan i do have more context. except the 1st part i have no clue what their goal was with that other than to waste time. but for the 2nd part their goal was to show us that Taash plays into multiple cultures. however, instead of showing us through interaction and conversation, they just outright tell us with rook basically explaining her entire character in one sentence, and then moving on like it was nothing with barely any interaction or acknowledgement. and an even more egregious case is after the decision is made a text pops up completely explaining the entire point of the character interaction. (which is a new addition, no other dragon age game has a pop up like they its like they just played a tail tale game and wanted to copy them)
The bit from your novel reminded me of a time when I was with a friend. Brought back a really good memory of being consoled after an awkward fight Infront of them. Thanks for making me smile remembering a great friend.
I always feel worried the dialogue I write in custom projects I make will be bad but after hearing this oh boy you really have to try to get to this level of dialogue
Writing is literally the easiest thing to do because we are exposed to it our entire lives. We all see movies, games and books with good writing. If you struggle you literally just have to read or watch something then copy it but make it different lol
-- Here is the AI version of this scene -- Taash: (holding up an apple) Come on, Karash! Just one bite of this juicy apple. It’s way better for you than those cookies! Karash: (grinning) But cookies are so much tastier! They’re like little bits of happiness. Why would I want to ruin that with a boring piece of fruit? Taash: (rolling eyes playfully) Boring? This apple is crisp, sweet, and full of vitamins! You’d feel so much better after eating it. Karash: (picking up a cookie) I feel great already! Look at this gooey chocolate chip-pure bliss in every bite! Taash: (leaning closer) But think about it, Karash. If you eat some fruit, you’ll have energy to run around later, not just a sugar crash from those cookies. Karash: (pausing) A sugar crash, huh? That doesn’t sound fun... Taash: Exactly! Plus, fruit is nature’s candy. You can’t argue with that! Karash: (sighing dramatically) Fine! But only if you promise to let me have extra cookies later. Taash: (smiling) Deal! Just one bite first. Karash: (takes a bite of the apple, then grimaces) Okay, it’s not terrible… Taash: (cheerfully) See? Not so boring after all! Karash: (reluctantly) I guess it’s… refreshing? Taash: (grinning) That’s the spirit! (Taash walks away while Karash nibbles on the apple.) Taash: (standing up) Alright, I have to run. See you later! (Taash walks away with Rook, who catches up.) Rook: You know, you’ve got a softer side, Taash. I mean, you really care about Karash’s health. Taash: (shrugging) I guess I just believe in balance. Everyone needs a little sweetness, but too much can be overwhelming. Rook: (nodding) Makes sense. It’s like your ancestry, right? A blend of strength and kindness. Taash: (curiously) What do you mean? Rook: Well, your family comes from both fierce warriors and gentle healers. It shows in how you interact with everyone. Taash: (smiling softly) I never thought of it that way. It feels nice to have both sides in me. Rook: Definitely! Keeps things interesting. Taash: (with a grin) I guess it does!
People can do whatever they want (ADULTS, not children) but I find it so absurd that a game I KNEW they were going to overinflate and overscore that was deeply tied into their ideology, was reviewed by a trans person. Of ALL the employees, they pick them to review the first game with "top surgery scars". That feels so intentionally placed because they KNOW they'd review it highly to "own the chuds". I've always felt they've rotated reviewers around who didn't play certain games, so that they could get higher review scores from games without having to actually instruct them intentionally to give the game higher scores. They've been doing it on yearly Madden games forever! Instead of having the SAME person review it, so they actually KNOW the improvements year over year, they just switch employees to someone who doesn't really play them.
I really appreciate how you take this as a teaching opportunity. One thing that always impresses me about good writing is how inspirational it is. It always makes me want to go do something creative, and I get really excited to write, draw, or work on some other project. Bad writing just makes me want to go veg out on other distractions. Your Silver Falls scene is a great example of the former. Thanks!
I'm not a native English guy, so I'm not good at English, but to me, it seems to be childish writing without any knowledge about it. I suppose that the person who wrote this dialogue perhaps doesn't know a word 'prefer'? WTF happened with Bioware? They had created some of the best RPG game scripts, well, a long~~~~~time ago. Goddamn chatGPT would have written far richer and more significant dialogue.
Fifteen years ago people were already making fun of BioWare for having the same set of characters, the same set of ingame locations, the same plot points and story progression, etc., in every game, and just having them skinned differently for the setting. I'm not sure anything "happened" to BioWare. They've just benefited, for a long time, for being one of the few studios still making western RPGs, but I've been watching them get compared unfavourably to Obsidian (the other main company making western RPGs) for a very long time, so I don't think this is anything new. In the circles I frequent they've always had something of a reputation for being pretty weak on story and characters, but generally having competent gameplay and worldbuilding that made their games enjoyable even if the plot was nothing to write home about. If BioWare was a GM they'd be a very "beer & pretzels" GM. Thing is we're not in 2007 anymore and since then there's been a decent amount of growth in western RPGs both in the big budget space and in the indie space, as well as a general trend of non-RPG games adopting a lot of RPG elements, to the point that the line between the genres is often somewhat blurred. BioWare hasn't actually changed that much, they're just dealing with more competition now, and not stacking up favourably against it.
All the talent left and got replaced with Didn't Earn It people, like with most 'aaa' studios these days. The talent mostly started their own independent studios, which is why a lot of indie is so much superior to 'aaa' games these days.
@@CommDante That's part of why I find it funny that game devs at studios are somehow absolved from doing anything poorly, and all of the blame is placed on management. The real quality developers have actual employment pull. A good developer going indie or being poached by another studio should be an actual risk of doing business. Instead, everyone being hired tick checkboxes and nothing else.
@@ShaggyRogers1 Which is also the reason why budgets and development time have gone out of control. If you need 10 checkboxes to do a 1man job, not even accounting for all the decision-by-commision wasting of time, lack of a singular vision that keeps the story/lore/canon together even within the same act etc etc.
That first section is written as if Taash got aggressive and threatening to Karash and the editor told them to walk the aggression back because this character needs to be the Alphabet Avatar for the "modern audiences". I bet a whole bunch of "walk that back a bit" conversations occurred over this.
This was really interesting, thank you. I've talked about the awkward dialogue offline with others, but this video really highlights why it is awkward and uncomfortable.
Dialogue reads like it could be pulled from a workplace Whatsapp group chat. Sanitized, casually utilitarian, the kind of forced friendliness that you have to use in that sort of environment. I guess that's all the writers know. I can't stand most modern games because of this exact phenomena.
its very simple: stop making games lame and gay, in that way everyone will be happy - gamers will get great games, and studios will make millions selling their games.
AND WORLD Peace will start happening tomorrow as well ! Politics all over the world will become ten times more civil as well when elections happen in any country . OH and the best one of all , I'LL FINALLY WIN A BIG LOTTO MAX JACKPOT here in Canada so I can go build a house off grid where I can play video games forever !!!!
having gay characters in games isn;'t actually the problem, it's the fact that they are written poorly, and an ideological message is always overtly added to them. Plenty of awesome gay / minority characters in the 90s and 00s that everyone loved, diversity was coming along nicely, until people decided to weaponise their victimhood and become total psychopaths about it for some unknown (Tumblr....) reason
@TheReaLcatniP I'm fine . I'm just spouting off for fun . I tend to leave outlandish comments when I feel people leave dumb or stupid comments. We all know that it would be a great thing if all game studios could make great games without all the extra bullshit . UNFORTUNATELY, we don't live in that timeline today . We exist in a timeline where studios cater to a vocal minority and ultimately, the entire game studio goes under thanks to them doing so . And that pisses me off . So, every now again, I just type what in my head . Thanks for asking though
I'm pretty sure anyone following the Qun as presented in earlier games, would rip her to shreds. In cases like this, I always think to myself, "What would Sten do?".
With every western AAA game/movie released, my suspicion that this is an intentional lowering of the writing bar gets stronger. When the AI takes over and the writers are all fired... nobody will give a fig. We might even be relieved.
The line should be: "The Qun teaches that we should care for others." The original line isn't directed at Rook at all, but delivered poorly. "The Qun says you take care of people." The royal you. It is written and delivered casually, which makes it confusing. The Qun is their belief system. The line should actually read: "The Qun teaches that we should take care of our own people." Looks like they have grown pretty tolerant of outsiders since the first and second games. Great video, though, with examples that helped me, as a writer. I will refer back to this and take notes.
I'm curious to see how they do with inclusive writing in other languages. Many languages are gendered, with adjectives taking the gender of the subject, and no "third gender" or neuter. This is particularly true of Latin languages. Even if you invent a gender-neutral pronoun, the rest of the words will still be gendered. An example from French: He is intelligent / She is intelligent Il est intelligent / Elle est intelligente Even with the neutral neo-pronoun "iel" (il + elle = iel, genius, which I've never seen anyone use non-ironically), and with inclusive writing, the result is: Iel est intelligent-e And in writing that might work, even if it's very ugly, but in speech? Because intelligent(e) with or without an e is not pronounced the same, and in all cases the adjective will be pronounced in its masculine or feminine version, there's no gender neutral. The game has a French dub, so we'll see...
Dodger: The bakers said to eat the cake before it spoils.
Iron: I like the beer better.
Dodger: Everyone likes the beer better.
Iron: I will eat the cake. Thank you, Dodger.
Dodger: Panahedan. I'll see you soon.
Rook: So the childhood friend has a softer side.
Dodger: The bible says you take care of people.
Rook: So you're a little French, a little German, and a little Irish?
Dodger: Yeah?
Rook: I get that.
Dodger: Come on. I should tell my mother how Iron doing.
Your comment is genuinely brilliant. You've translated the context and scenes and made the point seamlessly.
@@sungrandstudios Haha thanks. I had to make a couple revisions. Originally I was thinking of making Iron's wife say "I like you less" with iron replying "Everyone likes me less". After iron's wife refuses to eat the cake, iron leaves with Dodger to talk about his "tougher" side. But I felt like I changed the "I like cookies" line too much and the reversal of the lines made me like the parody more. So instead I went with a more direct translation.
Had the exact same idea of reply. 😂
After listening to that heavy and touching passage from the book, this comment just destroyed me :D
It feels like AI trying to fill a dialogue. I went to the store. Stores are a good place to go to buy things. Things are bought at the store. Good day.
This feels almost more damaging than a actual negative review lol
It is important to use abject failures as examples so future artists and writers can do better.
I mean, for a story heavy game as RPGs and the like often are, even if you just focus on the dialogue side of this game, that will still hit hard, and in this case, hit harder because you have the other DA games as reference
@@sungrandstudios damn lol I swear I hate when bad game comes out but I love the meta commentary around them
I think SkillUp's review will go down in history. It was...eye-opening. And sad. Deeply sad. Here's the thing, I don't rejoice in things being bad, I'd rather they be good. But Veilguard for me is the last nail in the coffin, Bioware isn't JUST a shell of the studio it once was. It lacks even any competent new talent of its own to grow into something new, or better.
None constructive negative reviews don't hit as hard because the target will soon zoom out and think "This guy just hates me".
Constructive criticism makes you think and urge you to be better - and show a way to achieve that goal. You don't simple shrug it off: "Maybe this person actually know what he/she is talking about - better pay attention."
That's the writing you get when you're not allowed to tell your coworkers if they make a mistake
Bingo.
summed up perfectly in 1 sentence
😂
Or when you not hire/promote the the best people for the job and only look at what group they are representing
So brown people make mistakes and white people are there to correct them, right? Is that what you're selling here? You do realize that you're watching a video by a brown person, right? How are you coping with that cognitive dissonance btw?
Literal Oblivion dialogue.
T: "Hi."
K: "Hello."
T: "You should eat fruit."
K: "I don't think so."
T: "Yeah I guess you are right."
K: "I will try fruit later. Thank you."
T: "Bye!"
K: "Bye!"
The rest reminds me of 19th-century German realist literature, where the characters don't pay attention to each other and talk past each other. But I doubt Bioware writers have read any of that stuff.
Not even the generative Oblivion dialogue is that bad. I mean it does read similar to how those go, but those actually have a degree of flow that is lacking in this scene.
"I don't know you and I don't CARE to know you!"
oblivion had far better dialogue. even the general side character world-filler npc dialogue is better written than this dogshit. its unreal
But my emergent storytelling!
@@don.keebles"Good day."
"this Dialoge couldn't have been written by an AI, because it's so terrible. An AI would at least create a logical flow." 😂😂 is exactly what I was thinking
Yeah! The only piece of technology who could recreate such abysmal writing would be "AS": Artificial Stupidity.
At least ai can lie with conviction, whoever wrote this.
An AI wouldn't create any kind of flow, nice try tho
@@herrschneider5310 An AI is indeed able to create a logical dialogue flow. Even if the story would be boring.
@@DieBieneFranz if you say so
- I like the cookies better
- Would you rather eat my fist? (She's Qunari, that's the proper Qunari response)
- I'll eat the fruit. Thank you
😂
I wouldn't be suprised if this whould have been the original dialouge but then SBI or whoever jumped, looked at every second line and said: "you have to make this more inclusive" which resulted in the entire dialogue being super inclusive and non-effending but making absolutely no sense.
One change of line makes the dialog so much better
I think that even if Taash would go with the lecture that fruit offer more beneficial nutrients than cookies, it still would be better than what they went for, albeit boring as fuck nonetheless.
This makes more sense and better than the original dialogue😄
Its not just the writing that is bad, the line delivery is awful too.
Do you think the voice acting could be AI generated? It seems strangely uncanny.
Something certainly way off. Aside from if it is an ai voice; backing up a moment, they didn't even choose a fitting voice for the character at all. Nothing fits or feels right about it.
@@sungrandstudiosNah, these nepotism hires are just so bland and untalented that they write and speak like extremely bland A.I.
tbh we see this awful deliver all too often today. idk why it happens.
To me it feels that at that point both the voice director and actors gave up on making sense of this interaction.
When I started playing Dragon Age: Origins, I never imagined an argument about cookies would be a conversation in this universe.
I'd say it's a throwback to Sten from DA:O's cake line, but they're just not that smart OR familiar with DA:O dialogue and nuance. 😢
Sten disapproves (-5)
While I agree with the sentiment there is actually a conversation about cookies in Origins. Sten, who views the rest of the world as backwards and uncivilised, admits to leliana that one of the few things he approves of are what he calls "the soft baked goods" which the qunari have no name for.
Now in Origins it serves a purpose in showing us a side of sten that isn't wholly obsessed with the Qun, a look at the person beneath and an attempt to humanize and initially alien society.
Here it's an attempt at a reference to that conversation in Origins except written and performed by people with metal deficiencies.
You didn't pay much attention then, cause Sten talks about how much he loves the cookies in Ferelden in Origins.
So no one remembers when we were talking to Sera about cookies on a roof?
When the guy said he would eat the fruit, I thought it was a third character volunteering to eat the fruit since no one else wanted it. That was the only way I could comprehend that flow of dialog.
Omg I thought so too 😂
I thought the same thing
Lmao exactly
Nah. She told him he gets fruit. He's like "I prefer cookies" which she rebuked with "Everyone prefers cookies [but the fruit will spoil so that's what you get, whiner]" He bent over for her and acquiesced. The problem with the dialogue is that the tone of the lines is wrong, which confuses you - he should have been "Fine, whatever, I'll take the fruit." which would make it more obvious.
Dude, so glad I'm not the only one. I thought i was losing my mind.
Back in dragon age origins, half the banter with morrigan and Alistair was gold. It was so natural. These dialogues feel like what the Kardashians says.
It was quite funny, too. The delivery was great.
Every time i remember "yeesss... swooping is bad..." i'm immediately struck with the urge to reinstall it for another run
Agreed. The dialog was absolutely hilarious too. I'd honestly prefer lower graphics quality if that meant we get better writing at this point
"How odd. We now have a dog and Alistair is still the dumbest one in the party."
There's an entire ongoing series of conversations where Morrigan annoys sten by trying to seduce him until he finally says yes at which point his proposition is intimidating enough she's the one to back down
Wynne tries repeatedly to have a "come to Jesus" with Zevran to her own frustration every time
Alistair will seek out Wynne for advice, and he and Morrigan take barbs at each other that is entertaining without feeling forced
Sten and Dog get along in their way
Shale hates birds and the world shall know
The writing was what made origins memorable
As skill up said, all the dialogue feels like HR are in the room
a qunari just said "Yeah?" - let that sink in..Qunari dont talk like that look at Sten OR Other qunari's ...something like yeahh or words like that is some san francisco shit added into DAO where everyone speaks in medieval english language
Soon you will have qunari saying Yass queen sllayyy
@@kanavkohli794 lol! 🤣
@@kanavkohli794 Plus, what’s up with all the Valleyspeak?!? It makes zero sense! Feels completely out of place.
@@kanavkohli794 "No." -Sten
it sounded like even the voice actors were confused with the dialogue and didn't know how to convey them properly...
the voice actors are also confused about their genders, so that's telling...
I feel bad for most of them. They're trying to make the best of the dialogue that they didn't write, and even they know it's dog sh8t. "What's my motivation in this scene?" Veilguard Director: "Motivation?"
I think I'm losing brain cells from 'modern' writing.
Me too man, can't believe we have bs like this, being a badass for telling someone to eat fruit instead of a goddamn cookie? Are we serious right now?? 😂
I hate how everyone is calling this "modern", it's catering to 2% of the world population and is an insult to many beliefs. They deserve any hate and angry letters they end up receiving.
If you need a pallet cleanser, the doctor prescribes a spoonful of Frostpunk.
Rapidly losing brain cells and sanity over here as well. It feels like a form of gaslighting where you're listening to something and it's not making sense, and yet your brain tries to make sense of it anyway.
That's because by enduring this - YOU ARE!!
I improved the dialogue, took me about 5 minutes..
Evataash: [handing over a wrapped bundle, her expression calm] Here-a little more than just fish. Shathann said to eat the fruit before it spoils.
Karash: [opening it, raising an eyebrow] Hoped it’d be the cookies tonight.
Evataash: [a slight smirk] We’ll save indulgences for when they’re earned.
Karash: [sighs, taking the bundle] Fruit it is, then. Thank you, Evataash.
Evataash: Panahedan, Karash. [nods]
Karash exits with a nod of thanks.
Evataash and Rook move away from the campfire, stepping into the cooler shadows.
Rook: [half-smiling] Didn’t expect to see the dragon hunter with such… consideration.
Evataash: To be Qunari is to protect what surrounds us. [eyes narrow slightly] Sentiment has little to do with it.
Rook: But you’re not just Qunari, are you? I’ve heard whispers-you’re Rivaini, too, and some would say... part dragon.
Evataash: [glances at him, voice firm] Labels are for the curious. I am what the Qun needs me to be.
Rook: [nods, chuckling] Fair enough. Though I’d say you’re more than that.
Evataash: [with a measured tone, steering the conversation back to practical matters] Come on, then. My mother will want word that Karash still breathes.
They walk on, their footsteps blending into the night.
Bravo!
That is indeed better. I think the author of the video missed the point of the original dialogue. The point was to humanize and show the motherly qualities of the dragon hunter, while providing her character backstory with a bit of exposition.
The original dialogue is stilted, and a bit too on the nose, but it actually (sort of) accomplishes this. I think that the video author is perhaps lacking context or otherwise missed the point of the scene.
I have not played the game, but it seems to me that much of the games dialog is cloying. It many of the clips I have seen sound very much like apparently talking to a small child (though all the characters are adults).
This scene is the same:
Eat your veggies.
No, I want cookies.
Everyone prefers cookies to vegatables, but you still have to eat them.
This is not a conservation between adults.
@@JOEDHIGGINS It is what reviewers are saying, the writing is very juvenile, where Rook is the parent who is looking after children with their petty arguments. But everyone always part ways amicably. No conflict, that result in a waste of time, or the feeling of a waste of time.
Well done! Improves not just the flow, but also feels more in line with dialogue that feels consistent with the franchise's lore. The Qun speaks curtly in a way that is much more interesting and informative to the reader than. "...Yeah?"
But this doens't have an epic girl boss moment!!!!!!
For comparison this is cookie dialogue from the original game (Dragon Age: Origins), with the warden being the player character, carroll being essentially a ferryman, and Sten being a very stoic and battle-hardened Qunari (the same culture the horned person in this clip claims to be from):
*Warden:* I need the first Enchanter's help
*Caroll:* No! I've got one job, and one job only, and by the Maker's shiny gold cutlery and I will do it!
*Warden:* The Maker probably doesn't have cutlery.
*Caroll:* Oh? And He's told you that, has He? Well you're still not getting in the tower.
*Warden:* As a Grey Warden, I demand to be brought to the tower.
*Caroll:* You're a Grey Warden are you? Prove it.
*Warden:* I don't have to prove anything to you.
*Caroll:* So I'm not good enough for you? Fine. See if you get into the tower on your own then.
*Warden:* Can't we work something out?
*Caroll:* Hmm... I don't know. Y'know, I am feeling a little peckish, though.
*Warden:* You want me to feed you?
*Sten:* Parshaara! Here! Munch on these if you like.
*Caroll:* Oooh, cookies!
*Sten:* I am content to part with them if it saves us from this fool.
*Warden:* Where'd you get those?
*Sten:* There was a child - a fat slovenly thing, in the last village we passed. I relieved him of these confections, he didn't need more.
*Warden:* You stole cookies from a child?
*Sten:* For his own good.
*Caroll:* Mmm, yummy. You scratch my back, I scratch yours, yes? We can go across now if you really want.
I forgot about this until now
@julianjames2899 with any luck you'll be able to say the same about veilguard before long
😂that was funny, he actually did the child a favor
@@alventuradelacruz522 Sten is genuinely hilarious without meaning to be lol
His comment when you enter a tavern is:
"Very innovative, making a place for idiots to gather where they won't be underfoot."
Depth and subtlety is lost on these writers. Thanks for taking the time to break this down. I've been a big fan of this series... shame what's happened to it
It is as bad as the porn light novel I wrote... and that is saying something...
Thank you so much for the support. I really appreciate that.
I have a feeling your writing is significantly better.
Does this strike you as something from Tumblr?
They lack critical thinking and only see things skin deep, both literally and figuratively. So they have to beat you over the head with it
I just played through the original Silent Hill 2. The scene where James first meets Angela, where they're both disoriented and confused and don't really seem know what's going on, they still managed to converse with each other in a more cohesive manner.
LOL true and in SH2 they deliberately made it unnatural on purpose for the surreal uncanny horror atmosphere, the writers here actually think this sounds normal......
Both James and Angela come off like they have major issues but not like they're lobotomized
Makes me wish we had a silent protagonist again like back in Origins. No seriously...we waited 10 years for this?
I'm (gald) he mispronounced all of the Dragon Age lore words. This isn't a Dragon Age game. This is an elementary school example of how NOT to write. 🤧
Good writing takes life experience, but these people spent their life in private education where they were told they were special at everything & their resume is a list of films that their parents were producers on.
It is the main thing hindering these young writers. Their lack of true life experience (and I would go as far as to assume also lack of REAL hardships) leave them with nothing real to pull from that people can identify with. This is why, as skillup put it in his review, story and character conflict is reduced to petty squabbles. It's all the writers know about life.
Stories are human experience.
My bet is on typical DEI hires.
Hey now, you’re grossly discounting their experience in preschool. Clearly they’re drawing on themes of sharing, counting, and taking turns.
I wrote my first fan fiction at roughly 13 years old and didn't write anything else until I was 30. The level of night and day differences goes beyond just better spelling and world building, it's being able to sit back and think "How would a real person react to this?" and draw from not just your own personal experience but in my case at least working customer service for the last 15+ years. In that time I very likely ran into someone who is like the character I am writing and from that (usually negative) interaction I can add a more realistic reaction to the story while tweaking it as needed.
@@Hybris51129 I wrote my first fanfictions as 9 years old before I know internet and fanfiction is even a thing. My writing only started to evolve after I become a high school student and I'd say only matured when I started college.
That's 9 years of writing nonstop.
The dialogue of this game is all written by people who have never considered a real life interaction where tension and conflict is had.
Someone else said "The dialogue is as if HR is in the room." And it's painfully true, there's someone waiting for offensive words that could possible cause trouble.
There is no passion being written here. Its to cater to an audience who can't comprehend possible conflict, for the writers themselves don't know how to make meaningful conflict or conversations.
Writing a conflict probably gives them anxiety. Like that guy who posted that he works on Halo (a military sci-fi franchise) and can't stand seeing guns. What happened to this generation? A disproportionate amount of people seem so soft you wonder how they make it through each day.
The Dialogue is the type of talk you get in a room of DEI hires. They nothing but passive manipulation and stilted wording because they cannot go against the other person.
@@luske2 Because we live in the Softest era of life, where you can live being that soft with nearly no conflict of anytype in your daily life.
Those type of people dont live in areas like I do where shooting take place every other week despite being in a Deep Blue state with gun bans. That You avoid certain streets just because of the danger.
They dont live in areas like that so they have no worries
They haven't. This is written by people who lives have been lived chronically online.
In a generation where everyone is highly risk averse and raised online to "be nice, never offend" this is the outcome.
The cookies line is missing "but you need to look after your health."
The he replies "ok ill eat the fruit"
This would also demonstrate the softer side by showing she cares for the health of others.
It would still be awkward but this is what they were going for i think.
I think they were going for a nurturing and firm kindness sort of character trait being displayed. Basically "I know you like the cookies better. We all do, but we still eat the fruit." As if the boy is a young child- which is completely fitting with a lot of the dialogue that I've seen from this game.
maybe the writer thought liking cookies makes for soft character traits?.. as in, a battle hardened warrior cant like sweet things or something? just trying to guess their intention is a waste of time 😂
Its also weird out of context in general. Sten from origins was so obsessed with cookies because he had never seen or tasted them. He even straight up stole some from a "portly child because he did not need them" and at some point in the past 15+ years he introduced the entirety of par vollen to cookies and the rest of his people became obsessed with them too. And the true ironic part is that a big part of the qun is about self control and only doing what is needed
@@chriskoloski32I like to think our Warden if they survived went to Par Vollen and taught them to make cookies. Especially chocolate chips. But that’s my funny head canon.
@@chriskoloski32he stole the cookies from a fat child,he did him a favor
- weird potato you in your sword sheath.
-i ate my goo.
-the square is s not a circle!
-yes, i get that.
-let's go make some carrot.
-but you said potato.
-yes, the sun is very hot.
IGN: 9/10
✒🔥🙌💯
Bro is IGNmaxxing.
cringe
It was so powerful when the guy turned to the other guy and said cheaters never win, and winners never cheaters, then they all clapped and congratulated each other for being brave.
Dialog sounds like 2 chatbots from the early 2000 talkin to eachother
it reminds me of all the oblivion memes when two npcs talk to each other and make literally no sense. 😂
The problem is that in DAV it's a freaking cutscene, and not a dynamic AI driven action between two npcs.
@@Au_Ra804 -How are you?
-I've been better
-don't talk to me
-Hello!
@@douglaswinycius4859I don't know you and I don't care to know you
This is it exactly. Lol
Cleverbot ass dialogue writing
Part of the problem is the writers were seemingly "Conflict Averse". Nothing even mildly uncomfortable is allowed.
- Rook can't say anything actually nasty, unlike The Warden/Hawke/The Inquisitor.
- None of the inter-party 'conflicts' are meaningful, nor do they last longer than one or two conversations.
- And now it looks like even outside 'conflicts' are softened.
Not what I was hoping for in a DARK Fantasy series.
Remember Dragon Age 2? How the Qunari rolled through Kirkwall like the Huns sacked Rome? A monstrous, powerful foreign entity with powerful gunpowder weapons, a very dehumanizing culture that stripped people of their individuality, persecuted mages?
Yeah... maybe the Qun mandated a high soy diet and the problem seems to have solved itself lol
Yep. Even in the 3rd game. And now they're suddenly loving and welcoming 😒
Even Tallis, an elf who adopted the Qun, was as charming as she was ruthless. "Past the idea of right and wrong is a field. When the soul lies in that grass the world is in balance... I will meet you there." Now *that* was good writing.
I remember Dragon Age 2. The Qunari were so imposing, i felt like i walked into the endgame zone with the elite monsters - then i realized they don't attack and it's just another part of town. now that is character design.
@@theesper7404 They were misunderstood
I remember Isabella clearly knew something but we couldn't ask her. Cue the tragedy years later.
Same with act 3 Anders.
Veilguard is just doing all DA2 mistakes on steroids.
Im a writer too! Does it drive you crazy when you see games with really bad dialogue and then seeing reviewers calling the writing "masterful" it grinds my gears 😅
That should make it extremely obvious that there are some ulterior motives at play huh
Yes. I know exactly how you feel!
I did narrative design work for a game that released last year. I feel you on this.
The arrogance in these kind of statements is just mind boggling.
Just call the turd sandwich a turkey sandwich and the herd of gamers will gobble it up.
As if we couldn’t think and evaluate for ourselves.
Saaaaaaame, god it drives me up the wall. The dialogue in veilguard here is so stilted and lacking any nuance and logical flow 😭💀
Veilguard's writing sounds like something you'd see on a kid's show.
"Karash doesn't like cookies. Karash likes fruit. Rook likes fruits and cookies. What should Rook ask for?" **stares at camera for 10 seconds for your 3-year old to say "fruit"**
"That's right! Fruit! We did it!"
It literally feels like Dora the Explorer, like writing targeted towards toddlers or children.
I always thought that the people writing for sci-fi and fantasy IPs today are better suited for writing for shows like Gossip Girl and Keeping up with the Kardashians. That’s just where their frequency lies, their minds stuck in that high school drama period without any trace of that Tolkien wisdom or George Lucas’ creative vision.
Previous generations of writers were literate. They read classical myths (Tolkien for example learned Finnish just so he could read the Kalevala in its original language); they read history. Few works of fiction will match - let alone surpass - history, so that's an excellent thing to train on. More recent generations of writers were less literate. They didn't read much history or myth - but they did at least read great works by men like Tolkien and Clarke, so they still had some solid inspiration to draw from. However, having gotten the inspiration for their fantasy or sci-fi works from existing fantasy or sci-fi works, there was a bit of an incestuous "feedback loop" going on, especially as newer writers, who didn't read history or myth and often didn't even read great fiction, and were just raised on TV and movies, started to be the ones doing the writing.
Now we're here and most of these new Gen-X writers aren't just bad at their job, they're functionally illiterate. Of course they can't write anything good. They have never even experienced good writing.
George Lucas has always been trash tho? He ruined all his own franchises bc he finally got full control. Star Wars are horrible when he wrote and directed it. His wife had to edit it to fix it and make it good, bc he was so bad. He divorces her and then immediately the series becomes ruined. He even ruined his own remaster bc he undid a lot of what she fixed. Bc he is petty and incompetent.
George Lucas clearly needs someone else (or multiple people) making sure he doesnt ruin his own work. That means he isnt good in the first place.
@@nowayjosedaniel Trash is a little harsh. I'd say he's not a good director and his skill with writing dialogues is questionable. His ideas and visions, on the other hand, while not perfect, are far from garbage. He's kinda like Hideo Kojima in that he needs other people for QA and prevent him from going all over the place.
They are stuck in the high school phase because it was the only time they might have had some form of resistance (hence drama and thus life experience). After that there just was no more life experience. That was it.
And that is the major problem today in writing through all media forms. You can´t write about something you have not even familiarity (technical, events and emotions) with. In the same vain, it is very very hard to write an intelligent character when your own intelligence doesn´t measure up.
Most if not all writers of the past who are considered masters of their craft had a resume of travelling, crisis and even wars. You shouldn´t seek misery of course, but it does form the character and gives those precious life experiences.
The previous generation of video game writers were often the game designers themselves. They were nerds who understood how to make a video games. This generation of writers are people who specifically went to school to be a writer And haven't actually written much and certainly Haven't read anything except YA novels. They get hired because producers don't know what to look for in writing qualifications and just assume that anybody can do it.
It also kind of sucks that video games seem to have a much lower standard of what is considered good writing
You can tell how little social experience the developers had, like seriously... is not just "bad writing", is straight up nonsensical, all the characters there feel like if they where an extremely socially awkward person
Not everyone is socially "awkward".
@@mjdayetube In this game they are
This is worse than just social awkwardness. It's like the OP said, nonsensical.
I think when your mind is full of the perpetual hesitations that come with fear based thinking regarding others' feelings, and having to always consider their identity and pronouns while also trying to communicate, makes it near impossible to have a natural and authentic conversation. Thus we have writing like this in a game.
When everyone involved in the conversation is afraid to offend anyone else, then communication loses it’s ability to be effective, efficient and succinct.
It's written by Americans. The ethnicity that had to change Philosopher stone to Sorcerer stone and their favourite movies are about emojis. Nothing that comes from usa is good. They are soooo dumb.
i'll add a bit of context (wich will probably make the game dialog even worse). Tash and Karash are Qunari, wich is both a race AND a religion in the world of dragon age. Although the writers are so bad is very hard to tell if Tash follow the Qun (the religion) or not, since she breaks the Qun but also enforces it constantly, wich for a real follower of the Qun that would be heresy and she should be killed on the spot, anyways, i havent played failguard yet, but, i can tell the writers didn't bother with playing origins (the first dragon age game), since is well established cookies don't even exist in qunari culture. "The absence of cookies in the Qunari culture is explained by their efficiency; most cultures initially develop cookies and cakes as a way to use up leftover batter from other things. Qunari plan ahead too well to have leftovers" - Q&A 2010
You expect devs now to know the lore of the series they're working on?
They dont care. Theyre just narcissists that have to enter all their beliefs into a game series they liked.
The devs don't even know who Zevran is (no, seriously, they literally don't know who he is). Lore, characters, it's all meaningless to these people, when all they care about are their own ideological beliefs.
Lemme rewrite this for a bit.
Taash: Ya should eat some fruit, ya damn scurvy ridden biash.
Karash: but I want cookie. I need cookie, uaaaa, uaaaaaaaa
Taash: hell nah you lil cnt, eat the darn fruit.
Karash: I'm going to tell mom on you!
Taash decapitates Karash with a swift blow.
Game over.
Taash is a Vashoth with a Tal-Vashoth mother who only left the Qun for Taash but still believes in its doctrines. Taash preaching Qunari things shows her conflict of identity in cultural sense.
The concept is there, the execution isnt
@@redreaper3065 We live in a day and age where an actress can play the main character for a series that is over half a century old and proudly say in an interview that she has not watched a single episode of that series.
Ign gave this a 9.
The same score they gave witcher 3.
I'm so frustrated at these people.
IGN lost the plot a long time ago
that's just the DEI score
It has nothing to do with the actual game
IGN is a joke.
7/10 needs more logic
"We gave it a 9"
"But what about the game?"
"Game?"
This video is created for educational purposes and is NOT a review or criticism of Dragon Age The Veilguard as a video game.
hard to not make a jab at it, the dialogue really looks like was made with AI, very dumb one
The characters have VOCAL FRY 😂
@@notmyrealname977 Right?? I freakin hate that crap soooo much. The "Valley Girl" way of speaking. UGH...
And brilliant as always, Jerrell. Bravo.
I was just telling someone about you today lol
“I like the cookies better.”
“Ok, you get your cookies after you eat the fruit. Only one! You need to act fast before they spoil and if I see any spoiled fruit they get to be the ingredients in the next batch of cookies. Got it?”
“…fine.”
Not even an explanation. "Just do what I say, sweety!" "Okay, mommy..." 🤢
You are being too generous. A fifth grader can write better dialogue than that.
It's meant for 5th graders to mold them.
I hate to break it to you, but there is sadly a large number of people who have gone through high school who haven't read a book.
So identifying and understanding "what is good writing", ends up being wasted on merely "is this good enough to post online".
I have a friend who is just four years younger in her mid 30's who is incapable of outlining a story idea. She cheated on her English homework by writing the story first THEN writing the outline, instead of asking for help to understand the process she looked for the easy way out.
Now she's struggling with revisiting her story IP and getting her somehow mild success up to industry standards. Some crazy investor decided to fund a ten episode mini series based on her radio drama podcast... Which she made because she struggled to write the story as a book. Now she is begging for my help adapting everything into a script when I'm just a local author, all because she cheated herself out of the education opportunity she had while in school. 😑
@@Mac_OmegalyHope you're being paid well for this
@@Mac_Omegaly yeah, I am going to go on a limb and suggest this is similar to a lot of people who failed upwards because they checked the right boxes. I am of an older generation and it amazes me the lack of knowledge on multiple fronts of younger generations. So for me when I see writing like this, then yes an average 5th grader at that time could do better. We were reading simple books by third grade and in middle school we were reading "classic" books like where the red fern grows, scarlet pimpernel, and the odyssey and doing book reports. I remember reading the Dune series in middle school. My suggestion is to offer your help for money somewhere in the 5 digit range, paid up front.
Jeff Foxworthy: Cleary, they aren't "Smarter than 5th grader!"
One of the biggest disconnects for me in modern "writing" is the quippy "i'm so witty and snarky" feel that makes you think they've never actually had a conversation with another human being. Its just "banter" except done in a way NO ONE DOES IN REAL LIFE.
I believe we can thank Joss Whedon for that. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly, and just about everything he has written has dialogue like that. He is a master at it, and when done well that kind of dialogue is great for adding depth and personality to your characters.
And now every no talent hack is unsuccessfully trying to imitate his style.
"erm, they're right behind me aren't they?"
"well that just happened"
"you're good at that. (X) that is..."
I'm tired boss, dog tired...
Every one of these writers watched Guardians of the Galaxy, and now they cannot write any other way.
@@cyxcevenexcept everyone just just pick star lord and rip apart instead other funny characters like rocket and gamora.
Banter by way of the kid that never got invited to parties and is now terminally online.
I think it's great how all the people from different areas of RUclips are coming together and taking this crap apart in their own way, with their own expertise! - Really good work! Keep it up my asian dude
You are just in a hate bubble XD
Dragon age origins is nearly 20 years old and has the BEST writing in the series, if this is the future then let it die.
Time for the great reset.
is this why older generation seems more high technology than newer generation? we evolve backward huh
15 years is still too far from considered to be nearly 20. But I get your point
Honest to god I think it has everything to do with social media and culture. People's brains are so whipped from the damage that social media has had on humanity, stunting young people's social and real world skills. 20 years ago, these people would be likely reading a book, possibly gleaming some sort of clues relevant to narrative work. Like the way dialogue is written and structured for example. Now people scroll through endless dogshit and nonsense on their phones instead. It's already been proven literacy levels have dropped in the past two decades...
Sadly though, Dragonade: Oranges still represented a significant dumbing down and decrease in writing quality since the BioWare days of Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. People acting like this was a sudden fall - they were lazily remaking the Neverwinter Nights storyline in each of their games long before the modern writing problems kicked in.
I heard a reviewer describe the dialogue as this: "Every interaction sounds like there's HR in the room" and I think it really describes perfectly.
Shill Up.
Agonising how astute that is. Its like the writers have just read about human interaction and are attempting to mimic this from memory. As if an English lit degree is a replacement for actual life experience.
Yeah that's Skill Up. Best review that's around, every negative he brings about is followed by an in-game example.
Like that line from either "Interview With the Vampire" or "The Vampire Lestat" (I forget which?) where one vampire is watching another another vampire, noticing the cunning way the other vampire mimicks human interactions, with only a split-second's delay.
To the humans, the other vampire comes across as authentically human; but he's really just being an emotional chameleon, mimicking the reactions of the humans.
There probably was. Well not HR but a psycho woke LGBTQ head writer
"You've chosen to encourage Taash by focusing on the benefits of a multicultural background" what the actual f.
Alot of my social interactions are awkward, but it's never even remotely weird as this. This is like watching Sims talk with emojis and trying to decipher what the hell kind of conversation they're having that involves a pizza, a cloud, screwdriver, comic books, a banana peel and golf. Then they just stare deadpan at eachother as the game decides what to do next.
I mean, isn't the game director a DEI hire that only worked on the sims before this? 🤣
They also withheld review codes purposely to only those with overwhelmingly positive reviews/impressions.
If someone had "Cautious optimism" or any critique they didn't receive a code.
That's a bad sign.
There was also a based spanish woman content creator who told them she was "non-binary" and was given a code and ripped it apart
Thats so not true. Many reviews have already been out, many from content creators who have already been critical of the game previews. You’re already seeing the varying opinions of the game. From “best game of the series” to “the most disappointing game of the series”
SkillUp and Matty will not be getting any more codes 😂
@@AidilAfham The negative reviews are based on ACTUAL crap in the game. How could you have a positive review with that much crap in the game? Would you eat a cake that only had a little bit of crap on it?
Due to requests from viewers, I have created a follow up video to help writers learn more from the mistakes of Dragon Age The Veilguard: ruclips.net/video/iCqCJmLyWjA/видео.html
"I get that." 3 words that completely pulled me out of any suspension of disbelief
As soon as I saw the line, I though...
"I get that. Cool cool coolcoolcoolcoolcool."
"On god fam no cap FR"
"I get that"? Do you mean: "I understand how you feel" -> short mention of similar experience or emotion -> previous dialogue resumes or leads into related topic
It's as if I'm trying to explain basic dialogue flow to a hyena
@@NecroknightZ The meaning is not the problem. People know what it means. The problem is best explained with the following hypothetical.
Gandalf: There may come a day when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of friendship. But this is not the day! Today, we fight!
Aragorn: NO CAP!
The vocabulary and intonation shouldn't be that modern. I was willing to put up with most of the dialogue but the simple 3-word response is really feeling like there's no effort to make a different world. It's not about being unable to read between the lines.
I mean, you get it, right?
Also you're explaining to a Frog.
I really can't stand this type of dialogue. I don't understand why its in so many games and other media these days. Its extremely off putting. Its crazy that writing in games was better in the *PS1* generation compared to modern times.
I am absolutely with you on that.
indoctrination
Because it's dialogue written by people with no life experience. The writers of this think talking over text and social media is equivalent to actual social interaction, they are the perpetually anxious overthinkers that practice a conversation for hours before it happens then break down because the other person said something different to what they'd practiced and go silent.
This is what happens when we encourage people to identify with their mental illness instead of being encouraged to get help on the understanding that they did have a problem to work on.
If I had to fathom a guess, people are more (willingly) segmented than they were back during the PS1 years. To write good dialogue, you need to have a personal understanding how real people talk to one another, and real people have their own views, ideologies, and understandings of the world around them. Too many people are in their own social bubbles now where speaking against dominant thought is frowned upon, complete with the fear of being ostracized from said bubble (self-fulfilling prophecy).
I'll also add that if anyone wants to understand how to write dialogue that makes characters feel real, just watch a Quentin Tarantino movie. I'd argue that's the strongest aspect of his movie-making ability.
It's not that crazy if you consider the people who were writers back in the PS1 era.
They grew up reading the classics and were well read in general. No social media, no internet lingo corrupting their language.
It's such a shame, but I start to come to terms with the fact that there will never be a game written as good as legacy of Kain anymore..
Also the voice acting in that game puts dragon age to shame as well..
So tiktok kids who haven't read a book in their lives finally graduated from college and got into the game industry. i'm not surprised by this writing, just deeply disappointed
Reading books isn't that important. Understanding the text is.
At this point, competency on writing is not even a question.
We should question their competency on socializing as normal human being.
It's like the writer never have a conversation with other people before.
Calling this dialogue AI written is actually an insult to AI, this is too uncanny and nonsensical even for a robot
Ikr, I seriously think AI would create something more natural sounding.
AI actually tries to learn from the data it is given. these "diverse real human beings" go out of their way to reject reality.
and then they complain about AI taking their jobs, when it hasn't taken them fast enough.
True, it was probably written by a person of dubious mentally stability
@@johnnii It was written partly by a trans gay autistic woman so you are correct
That's giving it too much credit.
This is like a child writing a movie scene.
"Hello. I am hungry."
"Hello. I have bread."
"I would like to buy your bread."
"Okay. The bread is five dollars."
"Okay. Here is your five dollars."
"Here is your bread."
"Thank you. Yum. Bread is so good."
“They’re not listening to each other they’re just saying words” - That’s it. There was something so off about the character interactions and i think you nailed it there. Feels like everyone is on rails reading from their own monologue, regardless of what option you pick in conversation.
"We'll that just happened" ahh writing.
Sardonic is the academic word for it.
Its an absolute plauge on culture, we're mired in a total lack of sincerity.
"ahh?"
@@alienatedslayer goofy ahh
@@alienatedslayerIt's slang for the word "ass." Don't ask me why people use it.
@@hughcapet5160 lol that shit came out of nowhere. Good to know though. I guess it's cool for little kids to have their own language. Don't know why but to each their own.
DA2 was developed in a single year and while the game play was not what we wanted, we still got a brilliant look into the world of DA. The characters and writing were not perfect (e.g. Anders going loco) but the flaws could also be blamed on a rushed production and we still got a lot of content.
DA4 has apparently been in development for 8 years?
DA2 gets well deserved hate but it is impressive how they were able to do so much in so little time. Its honestly one of my favorite Dragon Age games for it and one day I wanted to see it get the time it needed to be remade but not anymore... not with the state of bioware.
da4 has not been in development 8 years. you people love talking about stuff you don't understand, eh?
@@erxs They sure needed another 8 years...
@@erxs a quick google search will yield the result that dragon age veilguard began development in 2015... it is presently the tail end of 2024... so lets take 24 and subtract 15.. we get 9 so I suppose you are technically correct.
@@Silentpoppy no, dragon age FOUR began development. not VEILGUARD. the game they were working on was cancelled or rebooted or restarted multiple times during development. we've only had VEILGUARD since about 2020.
I really enjoy and appreciate your content man. No engaging in flame wars. No bullshit. Objective analysis from a qualified presenter. Bravo.
I appreciate that. I am hearing from many writers now who have explained how my 2 videos on this topic have helped them expand their understanding and improve their writing in a very short amount of time. Being able to help others has made this video absolutely worth making.
The Qunari in dragon age 2: a brutal nation of zealots who strip individuality from people, have a secret police to enforce their ideology, nearly burnt down Kirkwall and fill most people in Thedas with dread more than the Blight
The Qunari in dragon age 4: buff tieflings who eat fruit and cookies.
What on earth have they done to dragon age
There's nothing wrong with being a buff Tiefling, there's something DEEPLY wrong if it's ALL the character(s) can offer.
"The Qun says to care about people" NO. The Qun is a harsh, strict code from which there is no escape but death.
It's now h*cking wholesome, don't you like the wholesomeness of it all?
You wouldn't want conflict in your stories now, would we? Conflict is very unwholesome after all.
and look how they look, it is like they designed the head first without horns and added the horns later on like, ohh we forgot something. the qunari look like shit, nothing nature could have ever created.
@@davidstinger1134Indeed, conflict is double-plus ungood.
Sten talking about cookies as something he never ate before is letting the viewer understand that this culture is very minimalist and stoic. They don't have cookies because cookies are empty calories that only exist for flavor and are very expensive using exotic ingredients (sugar). The Qunari culture does not allow luxuries because a society that pursues luxuries is corrupt and harmful to its people. Procuring luxuries means devoting a large portion of the culture to acquiring those luxuries. And people will harm each other to acquire more and more of those luxuries for themselves.
From this we understand that the Qunari is a culture that does not have sauces. They are the warrior caste from Plato's Old Republic. They deny their people sauces so that their people do not become soft and greedy. Their society is a society devoid of luxuries so that it has no corruption.
The people are assigned jobs based on the concepts from Plato's Republic. They are assigned the job that they are best suited to. A person cannot change jobs because they are already doing the job they are best suited to. This is what Sten discusses with you.
Likewise they are born to the sex they are best suited to. This is why Krem from DA3 is a VIOLATION OF THE QUN. If Krem was born a woman then that is because she is best suited to be a woman and would have to be a woman based on the Qun.
The writers writing about cookies in Veilguard failed to understand the purpose Sten's cookie comment was meant to serve. They operate purely at the surface level. Sten said cookies so they have to make their Qunari have a conversation about eating cookies. They don't understand that Sten's mention of never having tasted a cookie is because he was telling us his culture did not allow anyone to have luxuries so that his culture would not be corrupt.
This conversation actually starts out ok. "But I prefer the cookies." "Everyone prefers the cookies" And that's the reason why Qunari don't have cookies. It is why they have a rigid caste system. Allowing people to do the things that most please them and shun the things that displease them leads to a pursuit of a life of pleasure and luxury. It is what the Qunari believe leads to corruption. If a soldier wants to be a baker then who would be left to fight off the Darkspawn? Or what if all the farmers want to be tin smiths?
With no sugar farmers you need to go to war to capture slaves to work your sugar plantations. The people who own sugar plantations can now exert a level of control over the people who don't own sugar plantations but want sugar to make cookies to satisfy their cookie addiction. So you have a class system that is split between plantation owners and non plantation owners that requires bodies to become soldiers to go to war to capture slaves to work sugar plantations. A corrupt system.
But the writer lost their train of thought.
I'm giving you my like and a comment, well said.
Well said!
My salute to you sir/madam. That was very well thought out comment.
Thanks for reminding me. I played DA2 and 3 a long time ago... and I'd forgotten about the Qun system. So, if we take this into consideration, this is really showing the writers don't get the point and weight of the cookie, OR, they do, and they are trying to make a point about how they (the writers) or Taash are reinventing the Qun? Because Taash's comment after is that the Qun is about caring for each other, which it is sorta if in a dictatorial kind of way, but to many other characters in the world (or gamers) it is not. So, either the writers have no concept about the philosophical questions surrounding the Qun or they are rushing to make Taash a strong, independent Qunari who writes her own Qun? I just think that her essentially telling Karash that "everyone likes cookies" serves to reinforce the Qun, in that he says he'll eat the fruit, symbolically reinforcing the Qun, which Taash is supposedly rewriting or cherry-picking for herself. But she's ready to go around telling other people what to do "for their benefit"? It's just terrible, really. But for me, even worse, is how Rook just rolls with it. There is no option to challenge Taash about her behavior, about her cherrypicking, or about her misrepresentation of the Qun. Set aside the inane writing, the lack of actual choice in this RPG is horrible.
@@chiekokurokumoYeah, it doesn't even feel like a role playing game, more like a role preaching game. Which fits with the Woke belief that we're all blank slates on which environment writes our lives, we have no Inner Locus of Control with which to make our own choices.
My elementary school english teacher would fail 10 year olds for such dialogue and these "people" get paid 6 figures to do this. I genuenly can't comprehend how these type of things can pass in a business.
because Gaming as a business is very lucrative and they have millions of defenders. Especially if its a existing IP that they do it to.
Dragon Age Veilguard will break even or even make some money, it is because people will do what people do, they will ignore all negative reviews and buy a product that they shouldn't buy. They will force themselves to enjoy a game that they know they won't enjoy, they will literally torture themselves if it means winning the argument.
Luckily, in a few days after Veilguard is released, we will definitely see a surge in popularity for those that post negative reviews for Veilguard, because millions of people will try to seek support from those that they ignored, but now need confirmation that they are not stupid and were mistaken with their feelings.
They will add to the pile of people that finally sees it for what it is, a movement by the new Developers to destroy what they love, Gaming.
Its a real shame because the old Bioware games had some incredible writing and stories, you really felt a connection to the characters.
The old Bioware members are long gone, one of the last writers left after differences during DA Inquisition after he wrote the complete first act (the good one). You can see the decline after that....
Yup, Mass effect series was the goat of single player story back in the day. What a shame
Thank god, an actual writer that seems to know what he's talking about. To me it feels like the entire field of writing has plummeted off a cliff the past several years. So please don't stop, rip all these new video games, movies, and TV shows and let everyone know what actual writing is.
Writers strike should not have happened last time. Those writers’ demands should’ve never been entertained
Writers strike should not have happened last time. Those writers’ demands should’ve never been entertained
@@blackscorpionstingerSomeone didn't forget to take their stupid juice today, although you might have OD'd this time
Back to bed grandpa, time to remove the dentures and go nap nap. Times have changed People can ask for fair pay for their work. I'm sure back in your day it was all glorious
Thanks for writing this twice though, I'm sure the dementia must have kicked in and you forgot the first one
@@Frawst_ Yup.. if you can’t give any logical or coherent reply, just insult them. That’s the libtard ways of life
Behold the tumblr fanfic trash from 2013 who got a job
Here is an actual GPT 4 output. It's way better.
Sten: Morrigan, have you tried this fruit? It is quite refreshing and nourishing.
Morrigan: I have little interest in mortal food. Why do you insist, Qunari?
Sten: It may surprise you, but even a witch needs sustenance. It may give you strength for the battles ahead.
Morrigan: Hmph. I find my power elsewhere. But what harm can come of trying this... fruit of yours?
Sten: *hands over a piece of fruit*
Morrigan: *takes a bite skeptically* Hm, I must admit, it isn't as revolting as I anticipated.
Sten: You see? The simplest things can bring unexpected benefits.
Morrigan: Do not presume this changes anything, Sten. But... thank you. I will consider adding this to my provisions.
Sten: You are welcome, Morrigan. Sometimes, even small alliances can make us stronger.
Morrigan: Let us hope so. Now, let us focus on the task at hand.
Oghren: Hey, look at that! She-devil's munchin' on fruit now, thanks to Sten's magic touch, eh? Can you make her smile next?
Morrigan: (raising an eyebrow) Do not push your luck, dwarf.
Oghren: (laughs) Ah, it was worth a shot! Carry on with your broodin' and fruit-chompin'.
A lot of writer misunderstood dialogue. Dialogue is not a conversation, it is a tool to continually develop the conflict of the story.characters move towards what they want by talking to other characters to make decisions, solve problems, or reveal secrets. If the dialogue don’t progress the story forward all u have is exposition which is boring and that is exactly what that scene is.
Well said.
Everyone mentions Tarantino as the exception to this rule
I'm not a writer but I do enjoy listening professional writers teaching about writing technique on RUclips. And all, I repeat, all of the RUclips videos I watched they always emphasized this. I can't believe a so called professional writers from a highly regarded game studio doesn't understand this basic even I myself understand.
If they can get paid for that level of writing, maybe I can give a shot in the AAA studio too.
In dragn age origins many, many scenes are completely non verbal - especially the warden - yet you can clearly see and feel what duncan felt in his last moments - despite not a single word being spoken.
@@Alex5000148 Yeah, Tarantino tells a story as exposition, rather than strait exposition.
"Im a fan of these cookies"
"Get in line! You and everyone else" - Laughs.
"I'll settle begrudgingly for this healthier less delicious fruit"
"So diplomatic. Thank you! Now f*ck off. You and your companions are insufferable"
There. Way better. Me with no writing talent or creditentals whatsoever. 🤣
you are better writer fren
“Errmm.. can i have some more…… cookies?”
Why do I feel that there should be an 'inconceivable' in that dialogue somewhere?😋
No one actually uses the word begrudgingly in real conversation.
This sounds like a rude but caring interaction between a superior & subordinate that feels engaging, well done.
Ok, you got me with the callback at the end. Logical flow ftw!
I really appreciate that, thank you! Glad to share a laugh with you. Let's go, Logical Flow Gang!
The entire conversation is a complete mess if this was turned into my creative writing teacher in college. They would have gotten ripped to shreds.
I would not accept this level of writing in any kind of submission.
@sungrandstudios it saddens me to see that those with actual writing and storytelling skills got pushed out for this level of "writing"
Then you'd get a heated email from the parents complaining. Then a talking to by HR for being toxic, by the principal for troubling him. This is how these people came to be.
@@sungrandstudios”This (shakes paper) should not exist, do you understand? It should not have come _out_ of your mind, because no competent teacher would have _put_ it there. Any type of grade would lend validation to its existence, which it _does not_ deserve.
You have until next class. Fix it.”
I was a poor writer in school because I was not good at editing those beautiful decorative words. I only used the most direct explanatory language. This led to my poor writing grades in school because I could not fully summarize a thing when I was a child. Now it is easy for me to type a lot of words because I have ideas and life experiences.
this may not be a critique of the game, but if the dialogue is indicative of the rest of the game, regardless of dei, this is absolutely not worth a play. its so fucking annoying
I have seen multiple reviews for the game and none of them talk about DEI ... Mostly because every aspect of the game is so bad that having breast removal scars in the character creator is the least of it.
Yeah, sadly, this is one of the more milder moments. The rest of the game is way more cringe.
The bad writing is most likely due to a DEI hired writer tho, just assuming here.
@@holdenhodgdon3756 No review codes were sent out to any reviewers that talk about DEI
@@budoshi-f2l DEI writer and DEI "talking points". DEI is involved on what can or cannot be said....who can or cannot say it and so on.
DEI is "everything is from the devil" of the current generation. People not seeing it for the massive problem it is or underestimating how much it corrupts and destroy are not helping making things better.
80s Action B-movies had better banter lines than DAV, really.
They have to write the dialogue like this. What if they elaborated the dialogue and risked offending someone? 🤣
You can't offend someone, that's offensive.
bg3 gave plenty of options to offend companions. your point?
Bold to assume they would be capabale of better writing. 😁
@@kellevichy bg3 is made by larian and the point is that the comment is clearly talking about bioware and even more specifically Veilguard writers
I mean, Did you do some writing for this game because nuance seems to fly over your heard
@@machinedieselx4767 except the the fans of the Franchise.
Something, I found really well done in DA:O is this (and this is just one example on how good the writing was):
Meeting with your father, Cyrion, as a city elf, where he laments on "not ever having small grandchildren", but ultimately accepting his daughter's/son's fate as a grey warden (and not a family man/woman) contrasts so well and so starkly with Ser Jory's excellent character-defining lines, where it is clear that he basically views the grey wardens as just a career step as a knight, and not as a life-long commitment.
-Both fantastic character-defining dialogue, given that Cyrion and (especially) Ser Jory has so relatively little screen time as NPC's. You really get to feel that they both have their independent lives, pasts, and ambitions, that defines them.
-And both fantastic vehicles to establish who has privileges in the gaming world (Ser Jory and the human knights/lords) and who hasn't (City elves).
Heck; even Teyrn Loghain's logic and motivation behind his treason of the king and ultimately de facto regicide can be understood intellectually, from his dialogue.
Whether DAV has something similar remains to be seen. We will only know that this thursday....
These videos after work are just pure joy with a cup of coffee! More stuff about writing please!!
They simply never had friends IRL
This.
Attempting to defend the writing in this game is the equivalent of trying to justify a persons preference of eating paint chips. Its exhausting, a little sweet, and leaves everyone feeling ill.
Is anyone defending the dialogue of this game? I haven't seen that anywhere yet. In this video, I explain why it is so off putting and poorly executed.
@@sungrandstudios I will attest that it is not you in reference. It is many others I have viewed today in reviews attempting to blindly defend a product without truly digesting the contents of it.
@@sungrandstudios methinks it's just an apathy of people lacking critical thinking and shame/self-awareness to recognize they have no taste for good entertainment. If they ate illogical slop of Game of Thrones seasons 6-8, especially the last two, they have no clue and are okay to eat trashcan level writing.
>paint chips
U mean wall kandee? 🤪
That Tash vocal fry is so off putting. Its like listening to the Kardashians
Zero hope or hype for Mass Effect
lol mass effect ended at the trilogy, all the woke people with Andromeda killed it. And even after all these years no one learned the lesson.
Mass Effect died at 3, if you're actually expecting A ME1 or ME2 level game you're hilariously out of touch. None of the people that made those two games are at Bioware. They're gone. It's a different product.
@@Sursion check out "exodus" its a sci-fi game in development by the ex -bioware devs and writers who worked on mass effect 1 and 2
@@estuardo2985 It's not that it was "woke." The developers didn't have the time or the budget. EA and Bioware made their teams produce Mass Effect Andromeda in only 18 months. They also only put in around $40 million to make the game. If you know anything about the gaming industry, Andromeda should have taken at least 4-6 years to make with a budget of at least $100 million; maybe even $120 million since this is the 4th game in the series. So the developers made a game in 1/3 of the time required for 1/3 of the budget needed. It was doomed from the start.
Oh give me a break, this is not, and has never been, a funding problem.
I plugged the conversation into chatgpt in order to get a rewrite, this is what it came up with:
---
Taash: Shathann sent over some fruit. Said you should eat it before it spoils. Thought I’d bring you something different for a change.
Karash: [grins] I’ll take it… but I still prefer the cookies.
Taash: Who doesn’t? Cookies are everyone’s favorite.
Karash: [sighs, taking the fruit] Alright, I’ll eat it. Thanks, Evataash.
Taash: Panahadan. Take care, Karash. I’ll catch up with you later.
[Karash leaves. Taash and Rook continue their walk away from the campfire, the quiet of the night surrounding them]
Rook: You know, I didn’t picture you as the nurturing type. Dragon hunters usually aren’t so… gentle.
Taash: [smirks] Guess I’m full of surprises. The Qun teaches us to take care of each other. It’s not just about strength-it’s about unity.
Rook: [nods thoughtfully] So, you’re a mix of Qunari discipline, Rivaini warmth… and maybe a bit of dragon fire?
Taash: [laughs] Dragon fire, huh? You think I’ve got scales hidden somewhere?
Rook: [chuckles] No scales… just a rare blend. Hard edges with a soft side.
Taash: [grins] Don’t go spreading rumors. The “soft side” thing is between us.
Rook: My lips are sealed. [pauses, then glances at Taash] You know, it’s good, though. People need that balance. Strength with heart.
Taash: [nods] Maybe. Anyway, I should check in with my mother. Let her know Karash is doing alright.
Rook: Alright, lead the way. I’ll keep your “soft side” secret safe.
[They share a smile and continue walking, the night stretching ahead of them]
---
The final line from Rook should be omitted, but this does read significantly better.
Makes sense since the AI is pulling from better written material.
Funny how all these writers are critical of AI just "copying" from what has come before when they can't even reach that level of competence.
Colorful and interesting conversation..Holy shit AI is even better than these toddlers at ubifail
P/S huh for some reason I mix the two failures with each other..oh well
This comment just eviscerated the writers room. You know your writing is bad when ChatGPT makes it sound more organic and engaging than the lazy, unimaginative slop you've gurgled up....
@@brothercoconut6599Bioware.
I once spilled some coffee on my kitchen table and used a paper towel to wipe it. After I finished that paper towel had better writing on it than anything modern Bioware can muster.
Finally! The review that truly matters! In all seriousness I think this video is good because dialogue is very important to me and I always felt like it was off in this game. So I’m glad a professional can properly explain the issues with the writing.
Dialogue is so vital to the storytelling process. I hope this video is helpful to you.
Hell even in anime like monogatari series it's the witty dialogue that is so interesting.
@@liesandy291
Monogatari is a masterclass in that aspect.
It's written by people who've rarely gone outside their whole lives and whom went to colleges that were really businesses that just created an elaborate syllabus for a degree that's designed to make them feel special instead of focusing on creating actual good writers because it's more lucrative and easier for the colleges and then they go out into the real world and get jobs by playing politics and here we are
Tyrion: You just sent the most powerful man in Westeros to bed without his supper.
Tywin: You're a fool if you believe he's the most powerful man in Westeros.
Tyrion: A treasonous statement! Joffrey is king.
I'm writing story for my own game project, and I found this insightful for improving my drafts while also having fun roasting the living heck out of Dragon Age Veilguard
In fact, the biggest challenge in independent game development is the dubbing of the story text. If AI is used, it will lack real emotions. But it is actually difficult to find voice actors.
@@GeometryEX-hp9zs That and the cost. Huge expense to get real voice actors.
@@GeometryEX-hp9zs Even more so difficult to find English speaking voice actors that I can _trust_ with the project. These days lots of English speaking VAs is politically charged in their PR, sometimes inciting hostility to customers, and general disdain towards even an iota of fan service. I'm having hard time trusting any of them because of it. I'd have to risk my own side of PR nightmare once one of them gone berserk and heavily promoting political agendas and even slandering characters that I envisioned out of love of the anime and game media. It's something I cannot risk, and at the same time I cannot fully ensure it won't happen.
Compare that to Japanese VAs, they're able to keep their PRs professional and focused to their craft and posts that fans can unanimously enjoy, and audiences would like them without question. I feel like I can trust on Japanese VAs and feel working with them would be a breeze, much, much more than English speaking VAs.
The story you wrote... The ending with that cake, it's so wholesome! There are so many feelings that was brought up, fear, shame, sadness, reminiscence and happiness, so many feelings in lines so carefully constructed
See Spot. See Spot run. See Spot run to the cookies. See Jane hide the cookies. See Spot eat the fruit. In four lines, Spot has been made to eat the fruit. I can write for Bioware.
At least you have a plot going
as a dragon age fan i do have more context. except the 1st part i have no clue what their goal was with that other than to waste time.
but for the 2nd part their goal was to show us that Taash plays into multiple cultures. however, instead of showing us through interaction and conversation, they just outright tell us with rook basically explaining her entire character in one sentence, and then moving on like it was nothing with barely any interaction or acknowledgement. and an even more egregious case is after the decision is made a text pops up completely explaining the entire point of the character interaction. (which is a new addition, no other dragon age game has a pop up like they its like they just played a tail tale game and wanted to copy them)
Writing 101 - show don't tell. And the thing that pisses me off the most is they're charging £70 for this game. It's offensive.
It's almost like reading oblivion NPCs talking to each other that's how little flow there is to this excerpt of dialogue.
It's funny because I was thinking all of oblivion has better dialogue than this
"Oh, someone stole your sweet roll?"
@@andymender7190 lol yeah
I used to be a great writer. Then I took a pronoun to the knee.
The bit from your novel reminded me of a time when I was with a friend. Brought back a really good memory of being consoled after an awkward fight Infront of them. Thanks for making me smile remembering a great friend.
Just looks like a bunch of ChatGPT bots responding to each other.
ChatGPT would do better, belive me, I work with AI.
@@ovnis__ I get that.
ChatGPT looks more natural than those.
Yeah, except everyone managed to keep their clothes on. I remember the early days of AI chat bots..
I always feel worried the dialogue I write in custom projects I make will be bad but after hearing this oh boy you really have to try to get to this level of dialogue
Writing is literally the easiest thing to do because we are exposed to it our entire lives. We all see movies, games and books with good writing. If you struggle you literally just have to read or watch something then copy it but make it different lol
-- Here is the AI version of this scene --
Taash: (holding up an apple) Come on, Karash! Just one bite of this juicy apple. It’s way better for you than those cookies!
Karash: (grinning) But cookies are so much tastier! They’re like little bits of happiness. Why would I want to ruin that with a boring piece of fruit?
Taash: (rolling eyes playfully) Boring? This apple is crisp, sweet, and full of vitamins! You’d feel so much better after eating it.
Karash: (picking up a cookie) I feel great already! Look at this gooey chocolate chip-pure bliss in every bite!
Taash: (leaning closer) But think about it, Karash. If you eat some fruit, you’ll have energy to run around later, not just a sugar crash from those cookies.
Karash: (pausing) A sugar crash, huh? That doesn’t sound fun...
Taash: Exactly! Plus, fruit is nature’s candy. You can’t argue with that!
Karash: (sighing dramatically) Fine! But only if you promise to let me have extra cookies later.
Taash: (smiling) Deal! Just one bite first.
Karash: (takes a bite of the apple, then grimaces) Okay, it’s not terrible…
Taash: (cheerfully) See? Not so boring after all!
Karash: (reluctantly) I guess it’s… refreshing?
Taash: (grinning) That’s the spirit!
(Taash walks away while Karash nibbles on the apple.)
Taash: (standing up) Alright, I have to run. See you later!
(Taash walks away with Rook, who catches up.)
Rook: You know, you’ve got a softer side, Taash. I mean, you really care about Karash’s health.
Taash: (shrugging) I guess I just believe in balance. Everyone needs a little sweetness, but too much can be overwhelming.
Rook: (nodding) Makes sense. It’s like your ancestry, right? A blend of strength and kindness.
Taash: (curiously) What do you mean?
Rook: Well, your family comes from both fierce warriors and gentle healers. It shows in how you interact with everyone.
Taash: (smiling softly) I never thought of it that way. It feels nice to have both sides in me.
Rook: Definitely! Keeps things interesting.
Taash: (with a grin) I guess it does!
"Eat the fruit"
"I'll have top surgery"
"C U later"
People can do whatever they want (ADULTS, not children) but I find it so absurd that a game I KNEW they were going to overinflate and overscore that was deeply tied into their ideology, was reviewed by a trans person. Of ALL the employees, they pick them to review the first game with "top surgery scars".
That feels so intentionally placed because they KNOW they'd review it highly to "own the chuds". I've always felt they've rotated reviewers around who didn't play certain games, so that they could get higher review scores from games without having to actually instruct them intentionally to give the game higher scores. They've been doing it on yearly Madden games forever! Instead of having the SAME person review it, so they actually KNOW the improvements year over year, they just switch employees to someone who doesn't really play them.
I really appreciate how you take this as a teaching opportunity. One thing that always impresses me about good writing is how inspirational it is. It always makes me want to go do something creative, and I get really excited to write, draw, or work on some other project. Bad writing just makes me want to go veg out on other distractions. Your Silver Falls scene is a great example of the former. Thanks!
I'm not a native English guy, so I'm not good at English, but to me, it seems to be childish writing without any knowledge about it. I suppose that the person who wrote this dialogue perhaps doesn't know a word 'prefer'?
WTF happened with Bioware? They had created some of the best RPG game scripts, well, a long~~~~~time ago. Goddamn chatGPT would have written far richer and more significant dialogue.
Fifteen years ago people were already making fun of BioWare for having the same set of characters, the same set of ingame locations, the same plot points and story progression, etc., in every game, and just having them skinned differently for the setting. I'm not sure anything "happened" to BioWare. They've just benefited, for a long time, for being one of the few studios still making western RPGs, but I've been watching them get compared unfavourably to Obsidian (the other main company making western RPGs) for a very long time, so I don't think this is anything new.
In the circles I frequent they've always had something of a reputation for being pretty weak on story and characters, but generally having competent gameplay and worldbuilding that made their games enjoyable even if the plot was nothing to write home about. If BioWare was a GM they'd be a very "beer & pretzels" GM. Thing is we're not in 2007 anymore and since then there's been a decent amount of growth in western RPGs both in the big budget space and in the indie space, as well as a general trend of non-RPG games adopting a lot of RPG elements, to the point that the line between the genres is often somewhat blurred.
BioWare hasn't actually changed that much, they're just dealing with more competition now, and not stacking up favourably against it.
Same. The vocabulary is kindergarten level, too.
All the talent left and got replaced with Didn't Earn It people, like with most 'aaa' studios these days.
The talent mostly started their own independent studios, which is why a lot of indie is so much superior to 'aaa' games these days.
@@CommDante That's part of why I find it funny that game devs at studios are somehow absolved from doing anything poorly, and all of the blame is placed on management.
The real quality developers have actual employment pull. A good developer going indie or being poached by another studio should be an actual risk of doing business. Instead, everyone being hired tick checkboxes and nothing else.
@@ShaggyRogers1
Which is also the reason why budgets and development time have gone out of control. If you need 10 checkboxes to do a 1man job, not even accounting for all the decision-by-commision wasting of time, lack of a singular vision that keeps the story/lore/canon together even within the same act etc etc.
That first section is written as if Taash got aggressive and threatening to Karash and the editor told them to walk the aggression back because this character needs to be the Alphabet Avatar for the "modern audiences". I bet a whole bunch of "walk that back a bit" conversations occurred over this.
This was really interesting, thank you.
I've talked about the awkward dialogue offline with others, but this video really highlights why it is awkward and uncomfortable.
Dialogue reads like it could be pulled from a workplace Whatsapp group chat.
Sanitized, casually utilitarian, the kind of forced friendliness that you have to use in that sort of environment. I guess that's all the writers know.
I can't stand most modern games because of this exact phenomena.
its very simple: stop making games lame and gay, in that way everyone will be happy - gamers will get great games, and studios will make millions selling their games.
AND WORLD Peace will start happening tomorrow as well ! Politics all over the world will become ten times more civil as well when elections happen in any country . OH and the best one of all , I'LL FINALLY WIN A BIG LOTTO MAX JACKPOT here in Canada so I can go build a house off grid where I can play video games forever !!!!
@@randoir1863 You okay there bud ?
We need more Wukong in our life 😂
having gay characters in games isn;'t actually the problem, it's the fact that they are written poorly, and an ideological message is always overtly added to them. Plenty of awesome gay / minority characters in the 90s and 00s that everyone loved, diversity was coming along nicely, until people decided to weaponise their victimhood and become total psychopaths about it for some unknown (Tumblr....) reason
@TheReaLcatniP I'm fine . I'm just spouting off for fun . I tend to leave outlandish comments when I feel people leave dumb or stupid comments. We all know that it would be a great thing if all game studios could make great games without all the extra bullshit . UNFORTUNATELY, we don't live in that timeline today . We exist in a timeline where studios cater to a vocal minority and ultimately, the entire game studio goes under thanks to them doing so . And that pisses me off . So, every now again, I just type what in my head . Thanks for asking though
President of Gaming, thank you for this excellent lesson. Its already helping me. Also, you're upcoming book sounds very interesting.
Taash: I don't follow the Qun!
Also Taash: I follow the Qun
I'm pretty sure anyone following the Qun as presented in earlier games, would rip her to shreds. In cases like this, I always think to myself, "What would Sten do?".
I wonder what DA:O Sten would've said about them
@@Vladislav888 He wouldn't say anything. He would just look at her with disappointment, like he looked at my Warden for the first half of DAO. lol
@@christiankaiser3885 My God.
Only now I've made the connection.
Sten liked cookies. That's the only reason this exchange exists.
With every western AAA game/movie released, my suspicion that this is an intentional lowering of the writing bar gets stronger.
When the AI takes over and the writers are all fired... nobody will give a fig. We might even be relieved.
The first dialogue scene literally sounds like two 4 year olds talking to each other
BioWare's Magnum opus no doubt, so much so that it will be their last opus too 🤣
BioWare is dead, long live BioWaste.
Terminal Opus
Oof... I think I wrote stuff on par with that in like 3rd grade
Edit: Glad I made it past the Dragon Age slop to hear your writing
The line should be: "The Qun teaches that we should care for others."
The original line isn't directed at Rook at all, but delivered poorly.
"The Qun says you take care of people." The royal you. It is written and delivered casually, which makes it confusing.
The Qun is their belief system.
The line should actually read: "The Qun teaches that we should take care of our own people." Looks like they have grown pretty tolerant of outsiders since the first and second games.
Great video, though, with examples that helped me, as a writer. I will refer back to this and take notes.
I'm curious to see how they do with inclusive writing in other languages.
Many languages are gendered, with adjectives taking the gender of the subject, and no "third gender" or neuter. This is particularly true of Latin languages. Even if you invent a gender-neutral pronoun, the rest of the words will still be gendered.
An example from French:
He is intelligent / She is intelligent
Il est intelligent / Elle est intelligente
Even with the neutral neo-pronoun "iel" (il + elle = iel, genius, which I've never seen anyone use non-ironically), and with inclusive writing, the result is:
Iel est intelligent-e
And in writing that might work, even if it's very ugly, but in speech? Because intelligent(e) with or without an e is not pronounced the same, and in all cases the adjective will be pronounced in its masculine or feminine version, there's no gender neutral. The game has a French dub, so we'll see...